Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 90. Marc Forster: A Man Called Marc

Episode Date: January 16, 2023

For Mike, filmmaker Marc Forster is a rare example of making a new friend as an adult. Mike and Marc met on the new film A Man Called Otto starring Tom Hanks, in which Mike plays the antagonist. Since then, they’ve become good friends. Now Marc sits down with Mike to discuss his journey from Germany to Switzerland to NYU film school. Marc explains how he built a filmography so varied that it includes the zombie apocalypse blockbuster World War Z as well as the Winnie the Pooh story Christopher Robin. Plus, Marc’s advice to aspiring filmmakers, why his family calls each other “shnufi," and why the buddy system is important in creative pursuits.Please consider donating to Smiling Gecko

At one point, my character is sort of a thorn in Tom Hanks' character's side. He's like a real estate developer. And at one point you came over to me and you're like, maybe on this take you could just get in his face. Just sort of, just really get in there and make it very uncomfortable. I was like, oh shit. I got to get in Tom Hanks' face and he's not going to know it's coming.

And it ended up being wonderful. It was a good take. I like that imitation of the accent. That is the voice of Mark Forster, one of my favorite film directors. I worked with him. I'm in a film with Tom Hanks right now that Mark directed called A Man Called Otto. I couldn't recommend it more highly.

I watched it. I cried a bit, a lot. I'm parsing my words as to how much I cried. Let me be really specific. I cried a lot 10 minutes in, and then I cried a real lot in the vital 20 minutes, and I laughed in between it, and that's actually what we talk about today a lot

is the relationship between comedy and drama and the calibration of that. Mark has directed Monster's Ball, Finding Neverland, Stranger Than Fiction, World War Z, Christopher Robin. He's won and been nominated for countless awards. He's a really, really sweet person. We have, I think, a great conversation, not just about filmmaking, but about the nature of creation and pursuing your dream and how hard that is and how uh how many how many obstacles you're up against when you're trying to do that and where where one begins and i for that reason i just i just love

it um i want to thank everybody for coming out to the old man in the pool we just finished our run at the vivian beaumont theater at lincoln center um there will be a few more announcements about places one could see it but I'm going to be very vague about that you'll be the first to know also to my friends in Salt Lake City as well as Mesa Arizona I know I had to cancel the shows in the fall to do the Broadway run I told you I guaranteed you I would return I am returning March 16th and 17th. It should be a great night. I mean, those are beautiful, beautiful theaters. And I was so crushed that I wasn't able to do them in the fall,

but I'm coming back. Also, for all these updates on everything, there might be some European news soon. There might be some more news about some different tour dates in the spring. Join the mailing list at birbigs.com, B-I-R-B-I-G-S dot com, and enjoy my conversation with the great Mark Forrester. You and I started working on this movie, Man Called Otto, which just came out this week, and it's amazing.

And it's so moving to so many people. And I would say at Venture Day, we've become friends. I've actually talked about this idea on the podcast a lot, of adult friends. It's hard to make adult friends. It is. Isn't it? Yes, because somehow you have your friends, and you have your friends

from childhood when you go through life and the older you get the less time you have you can't really collect new friends and somehow I think partly when we worked together that was so brief you came in and out because you had the shows in between while we were shooting. Shows and also I had COVID at the beginning.

Exactly. We had to move the schedule. So we had a really odd kind of bumpy meeting at the start. But you know what I said to my wife when I came home from shooting the movie? I never said this. I've worked on so many things before. I said, I've never worked on a movie where, because I'm a writer also and a director also,

and I've never worked on a movie where I came away from the set and I thought, if I couldn't direct my own screenplay, that's who I'd want to direct my screenplay. No, thank you so much, Mike. That means a lot to me. You do a thing in your movies, and it's all your movies, because I've been watching all your movies.

You jump between drama and comedy in a way where you're laughing, and then it's into something emotional, and then it's in something emotional, and you're into a laugh. And I always think that's an error that filmmakers make when they don't do that. Do you ever have that with movies where you go, oh, it's too bad they didn't inject some sense of humor

because even the saddest things in life, and of course in Man Called Otto, his wife died and he's considering ways to end his own life. It's very, very sad. And then you find these pieces of humor with the kids and with the cat and with the neighbors. And that's what life feels like, as far as I can tell. You know, I have this huge admiration for comedians and comedy because it's the hardest. And I think making people laugh is incredible healing.

And I grew up in a sort of culture where you have, in Switzerland, you have everything is very unspoken. Your parents don't tell you, I love you. And then ultimately when I moved to, you know, wanted to, had this vision that I should become a filmmaker and tell stories,

and I moved to New York to go to film school, to NYU, my English wasn't very good and everybody else was writing their little scripts and doing their short films. And I wasn't able to write, so all my films were in silence. Yeah. And it's, I think. And so these silent movies,

and I think these sort of communicating story and emotion with silence was a great lesson to learn. And then you add dialogue to it, and then it becomes another layer. And often I realized very quickly, because all my films were very emotional and sad. And I realized later on that America really taught me humor. Because in Switzerland, I didn't, you know, I mean, my father told jokes, but it wasn't necessarily they grew up funny.

Yeah. So America is better than Switzerland is what you're saying? No. Let me just write it down is what you're saying. No. Let me just write it down. Let me just write this down. America. Let me just get this down. Mark Forrester, colon, M-A-R-C, America. I'll just write greater than Switzerland. That's what you're getting at?

Switzerland. That's where you're getting at? I wouldn't say that that probably is what I was trying to say. It's interesting that that's your side of the story. Of course, we all have our own side of the story. It reminds me, I listen to your podcast

and you're talking about you and your wife and about the mildew. Yeah, oh my gosh. Our sides of the story. Yeah, my gosh our sides of the story you have each part of the story so that reminds me of that that's interesting though the idea that like and I've heard you talk

about this before do you feel like in Switzerland why do you think there's a repressed sense of humor I think it's just you have great, there's comedians by the way who are lovely and great

but it's often just more internalized. And I think in America you have such a melting pot of people and the country is built on immigrants and you have people from all over the world and you have these incredible, you know, conflicts as well. And out of conflicts

often humor comes because there's a lot of pain. And when there's a lot of pain, you know, people have to laugh because otherwise it wouldn't be a great situation. Yeah, it's interesting. Conflict breeds humor, certainly. I'm not giving anything away because Mancaldado, the opening scene of the movie is at a hardware store where he's arguing, essentially for no reason, about 50 cents of rope. And the rope is to end his own life.

And he's arguing over 50 cents, which he will not need that 50 cents after his license would be over. And someone actually offers him to cover the difference. Yes. Literally someone offers him. I love the way that scene is played. The actors play it so real. And you direct it so real. I feel like oftentimes people don't understand

how cold they say, you know, even on the red carpet for the, for the, for the film, to me, they go, people go, how do you feel about being in a drama? And I'm like, it's the same. It act from an acting side. It's the same. If you play it real to the reality of what's there then that's what's best for the story and it's the juxtaposition between the drama and the comedy, it's the yin and the yang it's the dark and the light and it's all about the human experience and these are the movies I like, I'm drawn to

and the stories I like to tell are about the human experience and it's about what can I contribute to the dialogue of humanity? But at the same time, it doesn't matter if it's a big 10-pole action movie or if it's a small drama or a drama comedy or whatever it is. I think they all have their value because ultimately we're trying to make people entertain them and make them feel. It's funny, like there's the, on TikTok I'm always served, a discussion of Tarantino saying you can't direct past a certain age.

You know, because he's, you know, he famously said that. Yeah, he's only going to direct 10 films because older directors aren't good. Here's my interjection into that dialogue. My favorite book on directing is Ilya Kazan on directing and I'm paraphrasing him, but he basically says the key to aging as a director is directing movies about aging because that's what you have to offer you know it's interesting I love that that you said that

it's great that you have to offer that wisdom but I feel like it's often I don't think it's just directors I think it's artists in general and people that often you come to a point, you have some movies are successful, some not, but you achieve some kind of success. And then ultimately, what the key is, is to really start with the destruction of your own ego, because then you can start from scratch again. You start almost like a child that sees the world for the first time.

And I think that's the key of trying to relearn the language you thought you have mastered. And I think relearning a language you thought you have mastered is really the key here because you can constantly, you have to grow, I think, as a storyteller and as an artist. And that, I think, is really one of the key elements for me, at least, because I feel like I haven't done my best work yet. Every film I think, what can I learn? How can I grow?

And, you know, working with Tom Hanks, who is a master and literally one of the greatest actors ever, and he's so brilliant, just watching, working with him and communicating with him made me learn a lot so much because ultimately he's so zen and he meditates and he's in the moment. He never leaves set and he connects with the character, but then he's so at peace with him and his surroundings. to watch that is truly extraordinary. And I feel like as a director, I'm thinking to myself

that ultimately you want to be in the moment. You want to be almost like a master in peace because I think some artists like to create in chaos and some people like to create in peace. And I'm the second one more that, for me, I have to be surrounded by peace to be able to create and channel sort of what I think is best. Because ultimately, you make every decision, and you make so many decisions on the day as a director,

has to be mostly not just rational, but also instinctively. And these instinctive decisions, I think, to make the right ones, I think, declare that pathway is just of your instinct the better. Yeah, that's interesting because I saw Jonah Hill in an interview talking about working with Scorsese. And he says, what people don't realize about directors is they're essentially making a decision every 30 seconds that impacts the entire thing. And it's all different fields of filmmaking. And when you see someone like Scorsese, what you're admiring without realizing it is he has a super ability to make split-second decisions all day and sort of not let down.

And you have that, and I never found you to be stressed on the set, and you're making so many decisions all day. Yeah, I mean, my creative process mainly takes place in pre-production because that's where I make the movie in my head when I have the discussions with my production designer, my DP, my costume designer, with all the department heads. And with some of the actors, and you weren't there, but we did a bit of rehearsal a week before

just to feel the ground and block some scenes and get a feel for it and that's where i have my dp as well but all these decisions are being made in pre-production in regard obviously to to color sound all of these things uh and and then once i get on on on onto set for me it's it's more about having having that in line and executing, but also trying to not be so rigid that it just goes the way I envision it in my head, but also giving room for magic and having someone like yourself come in

who is extraordinarily talented, and you come in and bring in what you have to offer. And I'm not saying no to that to see if it rings true to me and if it doesn't to steer it in another direction. So to have that dialogue because then you have fantastic actors and fantastic artists there who offer you so much and you want to give them the best shot.

There's a funny moment that makes me think of which is at one point my character is sort of a thorn and tom hanks's character's side he's like a real estate developer and uh and at one point you came over to me and you're like i'm gonna butcher your accent but i think it's funny if you're offended by it we'll take it out you're like maybe on this take you could just get in his face just sort of uh just really get in there and make it very uncomfortable I was like oh shit I gotta get in Tom Hanks' face and he's not gonna know it's coming

and it ended up being wonderful I like that imitation of the accent is it Swiss German your accent? yes it's Swiss German. It's amalgam because you moved when you were like eight or nine?

To Switzerland? No, I moved from, I was born in Germany. My mother is German and my dad was Swiss. And then we moved to Switzerland when I was like, to Davos, to the mountains when I was like six. Oh, wow. And then I stayed up there in the mountains until I was like 12 or 13.

Well, it's interesting. So we became friends on the movie in March. And then you were so kind when I took the show, Old Man in the Pool, to London. You held a party. And what I was thinking about today was you had a party. It was really fun. It was like a bunch of the folks from Ted Lasso and Zadie Smith

and a bunch of friends over there who came out to the show. It was really fun and you told a story about death that was so that that i was shocked by but also laughed a lot can i prompt you to tell that story i i mean you know because i was we were had a little bit of wine, no, it was a lot of drinking. Maybe loosen up. And I think your comedy inspired me to tell the story because the great thing is about whoever hasn't seen the show yet, how you're connecting with the audience. And when you stop talking, did you hear a needle drop?

And it's so quiet. And it's like you're literally on the edge of your seat to hear what comes next in your stand-up and the storytelling of it. It's extraordinary. And so I think all of that emotional experience, because I truly, as I said to you after the show, I was so moved. And it was just such a profound show that it just just moved me and and that's why i shared this story but we can talk about it all i remember about the story is that there was a body that was brought across uh international lines oh yes you remember that story yeah yes from italy yeah yeah yeah yeah no Yeah, no, so those were friends of my mom,

and they always go to Italy on vacation. And the whole family, the kids and the grandmother and everybody else, and the grandma passed away while they were on vacation. And then they wanted to bring back the body to Switzerland to bury her, and they couldn't. They had issues with bringing her back over the border. And they had to wait for, I think, a certain amount of time so they would really delay the funeral for a month or two or whatever the time was, or three months. So they basically put her in a body bag and put her on the roof of the car.

Oh my God. And then said, we're going to and put her on the roof of the car. Oh, my God. And then said, we're going to just drive her over the border. Oh, my God. And then so they got very nervous when they approached the border. Oh, my God. This is so crazy. I forgot the story and now I'm remembering it again. So then they're getting out of the car at the gas station to get a little coffee.

And then when they got back after drinking a coffee, their car got stolen. It wasn't there anymore. So that was sort of the story. So the body was gone. The body was just gone forever. Yeah. Oh my God. And they couldn't find the car anymore either.

Right. And it's inconceivable. Like at some point the person who stole a car. Yes. It was like, oh, what's this what's this yes oh it's a dead body I think one of the things that makes you so versatile as a director is that Jenny and I loved World War Z. And I think one of the reasons it's sort of a master class in that type of film is that five minutes into the movie or ten minutes into the movie,

we love Brad Pitt's family. We just love them. I don't know. They have breakfast together. There's something in the kitchen. It's also Brad Pitt is a great actor. All the actors are great. And then everything after that, we care.

And it's such a great lesson in the first 10 minutes of the film really are crucial. Yeah, I agree with you. And setting up that family and connecting with them. And then also because once they're in the car together and really shit starts hitting the fan. Yeah, this is sort of, if people haven't seen this, you should watch it. It's sort of a post-apocalyptic film

where they're on a wild journey trying to save themselves and the world, etc. But at the beginning, it feels like a very small personal film. Yeah, that's sort of what was the conceit of it, to connect with them to begin with. And I think with Otto, for instance, they're very similar because the key is there really to connect to Otto Tom's

character and then connect to the family across the street. And having that connection between Marisol and Otto. And I think in most of my film deal the human aspect interests me the most.

And you know interesting about World War Z just because you mentioned it. I grew up in Switzerland, Davos. I grew up in the you have to imagine it's the mountains and this little house up on a

mountainside and there are no houses around really. I used to play in the woods and there was an anthill and And my dad was in pharmaceuticals. So I took these sleeping pills from him and just powdered them over the anthill. This is crazy. And was watching the ants if they would slow down. But they didn't slow down. But while doing that

is that the ants really, I also was always claustrophobic and it was very hard for me because my brothers locked me into a closet for hours and didn't let me out. It was slightly claustrophobic. And then also it was hard for me to be in a mass amount of people. So in World War Z, the zombies and how they move comes from those anthills. Like when they come and climb the wall in Israel, it's like that anthill where the humans are ants.

And then I lived in California on the beach in Venice, and then suddenly the tsunami happened in Fukushima, and I always thought there's a fault line running in the ocean as well. That's obviously not Andrea's fault, but it's the fault in the ocean as well. So I thought sooner or later there will be a tsunami coming. And I had this reoccurring dream that I wake up and I'm drowning in my bed. So I'm like, I have this reoccurring dream. And sort of the wave of the humans in World War Z comes as a mixture of me basically drowning in my bed at the tsunami coming and the ants from my childhood.

It's like a combo. It's interesting you should say that about the ants and the shots in World War Z because with all of your films, I think the through line is that there's humanity and then there's cinema ultimately. I think one of the things that frustrates me about this whole discussion of the golden age of television and blah, blah, blah is I'm like, well, hold on. Hold on. We still need movies because I think the magic of movies is in 90 minutes to two hours, we meet a group of people who we did not know. We go on a journey with those people and the journey lands in a place that

we didn't expect it to land. And that happens in 90 minutes or two hours. That's astonishing. I feel I'm playing with all your movies. That's what I appreciate it. I feel like it's when you're doing that, it's a gift because it's extraordinary. You take, you know, it takes years to make these movies and then you give that to people. And to me, I'm like, movies, movies, movies. That's how I feel about it. Look, for me, I still love movies more than TV because it's also, I love the three acts. I love there's an ending.

I love that the journey ends somehow. It's something that that format of storytelling is more suited for me. And I just love also enjoy watching movies more because of that. It just works better for me. Where do you think movies go from here? Because clearly we're in this odd hiccup moment

where a movie like A Man Called Otto is an outlier. Like, even at the premiere, like, the person who introduced the movie was saying, like, this is a unique type of movie in this time, which is, like, it's not a Marvel tentpole movie or this or that. It's, like, it's a movie for grownups. And it's a human drama and comedy. You know, it's a movie Hollywood and comedy it you know it's it's it's a movie hollywood used to make a lot yes those kind of movies those type of movies and now they're they don't make them as much anymore you know i think after the pandemic you know a lot of the older people who weren't they still haven't gone back yeah. That demographic hasn't gone back to movie theaters as much as before. And I hope this movie will bring them out more,

that they feel safe, because I think this movie is really a way to experience all of the best way is in a theater. Yeah. And that's, I think, because you feel people laugh, you see them cry, and it's just like a communal experience. The film is about a community coming together. It's life-affirming. It's a positive message. Yeah. people laugh you feel them you see them cry and yeah it's just like a communal experience the film

is about a community coming together it's life affirming it's it's a positive message yeah and and i i i hope that people will uh come and see the movie and enjoy it that way yeah the um one of the since we've become friends one of the characters in in your life who I've met is Rolf. Rolf is a world-renowned board game maker who you grew up with. Yeah, we met when I was 15, I think he was 16, and he was, at the time already, just published his first children books.

Wow. At 15? Yeah, at 15 or 16 years old, he published his first children books. Wow. At 15? Yes, at 15 or 16 years old, he published his first children book. He drew it and wrote it, and then he published numerous afterwards and lots of board games. We just were friends ever since. But I think what's interesting about the story is that he said to me, he said, Mark and I were the only

creatives we knew, the only artists who knew each other. That's true. And so as a result, we encouraged each other's dreams when we were kids. And that's how we connected. And I think that that's like, there's a lot of creatives who listen to the show. I think like there is a buddy system to creativity when you're starting out. I think you kind of do need a buddy. You need somebody to believe in you. It really encouraged me because ultimately everybody in our circle of friends were interested

in finance and banking and maybe a lawyer or a doctor and things like that, but nobody was in the arts. And my parents weren't in the arts, and they didn't know anything about movies, and they thought my sort of idea or fantasy of becoming a movie director would fade away. And I think it was the friendship with Rolf that really helped me, is this encouragement to each other. And him always saying, because there were times when I finally moved to the US,

went to NYU to study, right after I finished high school, and then moved to LA. There were some times that were a little rocky financially. I wouldn't know how things would work out. And that encouragement of someone like that who knows you from your since your childhood to keep pushing that it's gonna work out yeah just keep believing if someone is starting out in filmmaking because you you want to be a filmmaker you went to NYU and obviously you're making like you're saying these short

films these silent films if you want if you're an aspiring filmmaker you're listening to this what's step one to becoming a filmmaker I think uh step one as a filmmaker is that you really that's the path you want to be on and you don't have another choice. It's literally a driving force. You can't suddenly, halfway through, suddenly decide, oh, I want to be a banker or a doctor or whatever. It's something you really need to pull through because it takes so much energy

and so much discipline and so much conviction and passion and at the end making a movie, it's mentally emotionally exhausting. And then you have to make sure that you constantly protect your vision because you have so many people

there's a lot of chatter and you have to distill the chatter. Very generously looking at a lot of chatter. And you have to distill the chatter. And ultimately, cut that chatter down. Sometimes, some people can offer great ideas, but you have to make sure the ship stays on course.

And you take the great ideas, but then stay on course. Great answer. Best answer ever. That's the best answer we've gotten. What my brother Joe was wondering was, and this has to do with all the collaborators, is when you make something like Christopher Robin, it's like you're dealing with characters

who are made of technology and somehow feel personal. And it's like, how do you get people? How do you convince people on that end of it, of your vision? Like, we're going to make these Winnie the Pooh feel like he's alive and lovable. It's interesting, Rene Wolfe, my creative partner, when we spoke about that very early on, when we spoke about Pooh, that it was important what I was imagining as we developed the script as well, it was important that the bear feels very huggable.

And you feel the bear was used. I'm laughing because I watched the movie yesterday and it is huggable, fundamentally huggable. And you feel that the bear is used and you want the fur to be used. And so we made a prototype of the bear. Oh, my gosh. And also we chose fabrics because we have all the fabrics. So we took the prototype and put it in different lighting situations. Wow.

And so we have the real bear, which actually is at my house. Yeah. It's sitting there. Yeah. And so we made that bear, and then we saw, oh, that bear, that feels right, that fabric and it's huggable and it feels used. And then I presented that bear to Disney and to my, you know, kudos to Disney because they saw the bear and they were fine with it.

And I was thinking first, oh, maybe they want a brand new bear or they will fight me on that. And they were fine with it and they totally understood the point. And it's like, because it's a period piece and it has to be a bear from the period, so it has to feel right, but you still want him to be associated to, you know, a little bit to the bear who is in people's mind from the cartoons and they buy in the stores.

But at the same time, it has to feel authentic. And, you know, the film was interesting because I was on a plane with my daughter and she said she was watching on an iPad Winnie the Pooh and like some cartoons. And then she looks over at me and said, you only make film for grownups. Aww. And then I said, can you finally make a movie I can watch? And I looked at Pooh and said, why don't we make Pooh? And she looks at me

and said, yeah, you make Pooh. Exactly. I said, why don't you make Pooh? And that's how it all sort of, that was the igniting spark, how it all started. Wow. And then Peter's question, of course, about Christopher Robin,

as you worked with Winnie the Pooh, was his alleged addiction to honey a challenge on the set? I mean, you know, it wasn't a challenge, but it got very sticky. It's so stupid. It's in these moments where everything gets very sticky. You it's just an end to these moments where everything gets very sticky you know what

it's not only on your crystal robin some other movies get sticky too yes you know This is called the slow round.

This is a lot based on memories from childhood. Good nicknames or bad nicknames in your life when you were a kid? Good nicknames or bad nicknames in your life when you were a kid? Good nicknames or bad nicknames? Did anyone call you things? As in my childhood, you're talking about childhood. Yeah, yeah. Not really. Switzerland was Swiss.

The Swiss don't have nicknames in their childhood. Is that true? No, I'm kidding. I would not really. No, I had no nickname. I would have to disappoint you on that one when I was a kid, yeah. That's what I love not really. I had no nickname. I would have to disappoint you on that one when I was a kid. That's what I love about it. You can always pull out that card.

Oh, actually, you know what? Sorry. Snoofy. Snoofy. You really buried the lead. Snoofy. Snoofy. Snoofy.

That was a nickname. Does that mean something? Between my brother and my mother as a kid so my mother is like Ober Schnuffi because she's the Über Schnuffi and then my brother is the Schnuffi I have no idea what you're talking about

that's the name but Ober is like the Über Schnuffi the big honcho Schnuffi Jenny and Una and I all call each other Sweet Sweet but it's a term of affection is it a term of affection Schnuffi? Huncho schnoofy. Jenny and Una and I all call each other sweet-sweet. Sweet-sweet. Sweet-sweet. But it's a term of affection. Is it a term of affection, schnoofy?

Yeah, schnoofy. Schnoofyly. And you can do an I behind it if you want to be very affectionate. Or schnoofyly. And then we're all schnoofies. That's so lovely. That just came to me. But that's more like an internal family.

I told you so with your family about your film career, about your success as a filmmaker, to your family who didn't believe in you when only Rolf and I believed in you. I mean, two of them believed in you. My mother did not believe in me. By the way, I was the only person who believed in Rolf. Exactly. I mean, that person who believed in Rolf. Exactly.

I mean, that's where he is right now. You know, the thing is, when I started out, my mother did not not believe in me. She just was worried. I get it. She was worried. I think my parents, too. Yeah, she was worried.

But I think she, you know, ultimately, you know, what was funny when I was in, like, after kindergarten, like in primary school, you know, what was funny when I was in, after kindergarten, in primary school, I was dialectic. And the teacher called my mother and said, the two students, your son and his other son, have some learning disabilities or issues, and we need to figure those out. And my mother said, what kind of disability?

I didn't understand. What's wrong with my son? And he couldn't express himself or point it and said he just doesn't fit in my class. He has to go. And he has to go to a special school for kids with special needs. And my mother said, no, my kid has to stay in the school. She didn't want

me to go to another school so i had to go through these evaluations and meet psychiatrists and draw little drawings like a tree and the psychiatrist sits in front of you and says oh why don't you to me and says oh why are you not drawing some roots at this tree i said oh but i'm drawing leaves wow so so that was um sort of the course of events. But ultimately my mom then pushed the talents I had and that could evaluate, oh, your son has a great visual sense of blah, blah, blah. Yeah.

Well, it's funny because that's an interesting example of like often, especially with artists, the thing that when you're a kid, people think is wrong with you is actually right with you. Yeah. The thing that when you're a kid people think is wrong with you is actually right with you. I feel like certainly when I was a kid, I talked too much in class. I was always acting out,

saying things out of turn, saying inappropriate things. And it's like, well, I've got a location for that. It's on stage. Everyone's going to quiet down. Do you ever have to, when you develop a comedy, is how do you censor yourself on stage? Or do you just, there's a stream of consciousness sometimes

that you bring up? So what I do is I write a stream of consciousness sometimes that you as you bring up so what i do is i write um a version of what i think is funny i always describe this as i write what i what i believe is funny i share it i memorize it as best i can i share with an audience i start to understand the venn diagram of what they think is funny about what i think is funny and what i think is funny about what i think is funny and then i start to funny about what I think is funny. And then I start to build from there. It's like, oh, okay, let's work from this place. And so it's over time, in the case of Old Man in the Pool

or Sleepwalk with Me, years, like three, four years sometimes, where I start to understand like, oh, I'm interested in this and they're interested in this. I think this is funny and they think this is funny. And occasionally you overrule them and you go, no, no, I'm interested in this, and they're interested in this. I think this is funny, and they think this is funny. And occasionally you overrule them and you go, no, no, this other thing's funny too. Can you think of a time where you were scared and you ran away? Yeah, I mean, you know, I was scared a lot as a kid, and my escape ultimately always was in imagination.

Oh, interesting. It's like when you watch Finding Neverland. Finding Neverland has tons of that, yeah. Yes. The reason I wanted to make that movie is because how Jane Barry was inspired to write Peter Pan. But then also, it's what I just mentioned to you, the forest where the anthill was behind our house. Yeah. what I just mentioned to you, the forest behind our,

where the anthill was behind our house, is how we're just like, I dressed up in different costumes and outfits and run into the forest and imagine this whole world of friends and people and what I communicated and what I created. And that was my safe place. And I did that physically, but I also did it mentally. And it's sort of this escape because partly sometimes out of loneliness, sometimes of pain or abandonment or whatever the issues are as a child because my family was very, nobody was really that much around.

So you were pretty much often left on your own. And in that sense, there was always this escape. And escaping, ultimately making a movie is a part of escaping as well. Sure. You're running away from what is a typical existence into sort of this imagination land where you're creating something. Yeah. What's the best piece of advice that you've ever been given that you used? what's the best piece of advice that you've ever been given that you used? I think, you know, there are a couple of people throughout life who profoundly affect the choices you make

because one choice can put you in this direction and this. And this, truly, I would say, there was a moment where my family lost everything, my dad financially. And it was two weeks later, so I was at a birthday party of a friend, and his father was there. We had this friend's birthday party, and I think he was turning 18, my friend, at the time. I was staying there with the dad, and he said, and he looked at me, and I thought my life was in shambles because we wouldn't know how to, all his accounts were frozen, we lost everything, how we would go on and how we would live. And he looked at me and said, this is the luckiest moment in your life right now.

this is the luckiest moment in your life right now. Because you look at these kids, they have a false, secure belief system that they have built with their family and their life. You have the opportunity now to create who you really want to be. And that's what you should do. And I was like, my person is mad. And ultimately, what's interesting seeing a part a couple of weeks later, months later, I thought I would get very sad because we had no money anymore. But that never happened. I didn't

get sad. I actually became very peaceful having less. And in that peacefulness, I realized you should really only do what your heart tells you to do and follow that. And in that peacefulness, I realized you should really only do what your heart tells you to do and follow that. And that's really only what matters in life at the end. So I think that piece of advice of him in that moment, then it came to me, you should have that opportunity now to create who you really want to be, was one of the great moments that affected me deeply. Wow, that's great advice. What's something you've learned about yourself as an adult? I learned that you believe you know yourself and ultimately you really don't.

You keep changing. You keep questioning who you are and you keep growing and you you try to to to understand how to be more respectful or kinder whatever and and you you have to it's it's a constant growing process yeah and i think and often it's through friends like yourself and conversations like this or my work or people who you love it reflects back on you that you understand ultimately

who you are and who you are at this moment because I think we constantly change and it's interesting I read once this essay of this Indian philosopher and he says yeah I don't really have an opinion because I'm going to change it anyway.

Right, yes, of course. There's a great Seinfeld quote that I always use which is, the audience tells you what's funny about you. You don't tell them, they tell you. And it's because of the exact thing you're saying. We're always changing. We don't always know who we are because we're different than we were a half hour ago

or certainly a year ago yeah exactly so what do you at this moment what does that make you want to make next as a filmmaker you know we made two movies back to back during COVID

there was Otto and White Bird. And White Bird we actually shot before Otto that's coming out next middle of August. Wow. And so we're very excited about that. I think it's a very beautiful movie. Very touching as well. And then next we're developing a couple of things.

Might make another movie, Graveyard, the Neil Gaiman book was, the Graveyard, the Neil Gaiman book was the Graveyard book from Neil Gaiman was Disney hopefully that comes together but you never know it's the film business but we hope for the best but it's you know you're constantly

trying you know to I mean I like you know people say you're a versatile director and you know I was say you're a versatile director. And, you know, I was always inspired by someone like Howard Hawks or Billy Wilder who made a lot of different kind of genres. And, you know, their directors, they always make the same genre, like Hitchcock, who becomes a master of his genre.

The directors, they switch up the genre, make a lot of different genres. And that's more, you know, My intention never was to become, ultimately, when you do the same genre, you become a brand, which is great to raise money because people have much more awareness of you because you're a brand. With versatility, there's less of a brand, but for me, that's the only path because I couldn't do the same movie over and over again because

I probably would go insane. And I think it's great to have that mastery. For me, it's about every time I feel like, oh, I might fail, that's what inspires me. That I need to figure out how to crack this and make this great.

And it's like with Otto, which is based on a huge best-selling novel, almost sold 10 million copies on a movie that was the most media film, which was great. So people first would ask me, I never did a movie that was based

on a movie or a book in that sense. They combo and said, oh, why do you have to remake this movie again? And I think, yes, because there is a wider audience because Otto is a Shakespearean character that can live universally in every culture. That's right. It's funny you should bring up Billy Wilder because he has one of my favorite anecdotes from

filmmaking. And I feel like you probably love this too. Have you ever heard that story about when they were making The Apartment? I love that movie. It's great, beautiful movie. And the actor, I think it was Jack Lemmon, did the scene and Billy Wilder goes, let's do it again, make less of it. And he goes, that was good.

And they do another take. That was good, Make less of it. And he goes, that was good. And they do another take. That was good. Make less of it. That was good. Make less of it. And finally, Jack Clemens says, Billy, I'm not doing anything at all. And he goes, exactly. So the final thing we do on the show is working it out for a cause. We will contribute to an organization that you think is doing a good job, a non-profit or anything like that.

Yeah, there's a friend of mine, Hannes Schmid. He's a Swiss artist, was a great wildlife story, was a rock and roll photographer. He has an organization, a non-profit called Smiling Gecko. It's based basically in Cambodia. In Cambodia, he bought these pieces of land and he has a whole farm there, a school,

and education for all these kids. I don't know if you know much about Cambodia and the educational system there and the poverty. I mean, it's horrific. And he built this whole community there. And you know that every dollar really goes there and the schooling and how many kids he has there. And it's really extraordinary when you look it up.

What's it called? Smiling Gecko. It is smilinggecko.ch. This looks like an extraordinary organization. We'll link to them in the show notes. Encourage people to donate as well. Fantastic. Well, Mark, you're my new friend.

You're my collaborator. I'm thrilled for your movie. I can't wait for people to see the movie. They should see it in the theater with other people to have the human experience that films like this were intended to have. Please do so. Thank you so much.

Working it out, because it's not done. Working it out, because it's not done Working it out, because there's no... That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. Go see, I mean, all of Mark's films I would watch. A Man Called Otto is in theaters now. Support films like this in movie theaters. I think that you'll have a great experience with it. Tom Hanks is amazing. I mean, the whole cast does an amazing job.

I'd also watch World War Z. I think that that movie is fantastic. Thanks for listening. Our producers of Working It Out are myself, along with Peter Salamone and Joseph Birbiglia. Associate producer, Mabel Lewis. Consulting producer, Seth Barish. Assistant producers, Gary Simons and Lucy Jones. Sound mix by Ben Cruz. Supervising engineer, Kate Balinski. Special thanks to Marissa Hurwitz and Josh Upfall. Mike Insigliere is Mike Berkowitz.

Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Also, I should shout out, if you've seen The Old Man in the Pool, the song that plays at the beginning and the end is by a group that Jack works with called Redhurst. It is Jack Antonoff, Soundwave, and Sam Du. And I love that album. I mean, Jenny and I listened to that thing like crazy. So good.

That brings me to special thanks to J-Hope Stein, whose book, Good Segway, is called Little Astronaut. It is at your local bookstore. You can follow her at J-Hope Stein. Special thanks, as always, is called Little Astronaut. It is at your local bookstore. You can follow her at jhopestein. Special thanks, as always, to our daughter, Una, who helped me create a radio fort made of pillows in the deep of pandemic. Thanks, most of all, to you who are listening. Tell your friends. Tell your enemies.

Like Otto, for example. Otto has a lot of enemies. His neighbors, the person at the hardware store, me, me, for example, the real estate developer. You should go up to your real estate developer who's trying to buy your house based on knowing inside information about your health conditions and say, you know, there's this podcast I really enjoy. I think you might like the Mark Forster episode or the Sarah Sherman or the Hannah Gadsby or the John Mulaney.

I'll see you next time, everybody.