Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 92. Vir Das: Getting Cancelled Except For Real

Episode Date: February 13, 2023

In an age when many comedians talk about being cancelled, Vir Das was actually very nearly cancelled in a real way. When his YouTube monologue "Two Indias" went viral, a criminal complaint was filed against him in his home country of India. Vir talks to Mike about that experience and how he was able to turn the pain from the experience into the comedy in his recent Netflix special. They also discuss Vir’s journey from Bollywood star to international stand-up sensation, and why it’s important for a comedian to give the audience all they’ve got.Please consider donating to Voice of Stray Dogs

America has a very distinct smell that nobody talks about. Can you describe it? It's detergent and carpeting. That's what it is. All I think of when I travel is carpet. Yeah, but colleges, airports, any public spaces smell like carpeting in America. Yeah, what the hell's going on? Welcome back to working it out that is the voice of veer das comedian who i think is just fantastic i i was introduced to his work uh through a mutual friend of ours zarna garg who sometimes

tours with him and has zarna has been on the podcast here, comedian who I love, a friend of mine. And she introduced me to Veer and I dug into all his Netflix specials. He has a bunch of Netflix specials. He has a new Netflix special called Landing, which is fantastic. It's an interesting story, very one of a kind. He made news a couple of years ago

when he performed a monologue called Two Indias. And it was it was sort of controversial. It sort of straddled the line between comedy and poetry and speech. And I'm always fascinated by people who sort of go into, first of all, like hard truths about things, which he does, and two, who break the form of stand-up comedy and use it in unique ways, and Two Indias does that so well. We dig into that today. By the way, thanks for all the positive feedback

about the podcast. A lot of people have said nice things on Apple Podcasts and written little things about their favorite episodes. People have been giving me, you know, writing comments on Instagram about the Mark Forrester episode

and the Ryan Hamilton episode, the Zarnit Garg episode. This is another great episode. If you're able to write a little thing on Apple Podcasts, we appreciate it. It goes a long way. We here at Working It Out are thrilled

when you express your recommendation because more people find the show and we put our hearts and souls into the show. If you happen to live near Mesa, Arizona, or really any part of Arizona, or really any part of anywhere near there, I'll be at the Mesa Arts Center March 16th, which is a gorgeous, gorgeous theater. One of my favorite in the country.

And I'll be in Salt Lake City at Kingsbury Hall March 17th. Another one. Gorgeous, gorgeous theater. All of this, sign up for the mailing list on burbiggs.com because I'm going to be announcing some new material working it out dates coming up soon the mailing list it will be where

you are the first to know about those shows because they're small and they will probably sell out so I will if you want to go to that

and then sign up for the thing anyway I think you're going to love this Vierdas episode it's a very it's an interesting conversation about controversy and comedy and where's the line and doing comedy internationally

and sort of how things change from city to city, country to country. And I just think you're going to love it. Enjoy my conversation with the great Vierdas. Vierdas. You're the greatest example, who I know now personally, of someone who was actually canceled. Because the word canceled is thrown around a lot. So what happened to you is that people in India saw a piece that you did called two

indias yeah and they went into a police station and filed a criminal complaint a complaint against you yeah which is wild and then you did you go to court no okay and the police uh after a period of time, were just like, no, we're not going to. We have better things to do. Sure. Yeah. Because we're the police. But I think I put out this video and it was one of many YouTube videos in that vein that I've done before. And it's weird how you don't get to predict what creates a conversation ever as an artist

you have you have no idea and so three days of big love you know it went well yeah and then i think we all have the angry news channel in our country and we have one too and they picked it up yeah they took a couple of bits of it and put it out let angry people angry people let angry complaints you know and then you have this journey where if you you're ever at the center of like a headline storm yeah a new storm you feel like you're the center of the universe you really do yeah and it takes a little bit of character to buckle down and stay silent in that when you all you want to do is explain i never meant to hurt anyone or i uh you know uh or to engage with people who to say i'm sorry you're hurt or to say no this is

what i meant and then you kind of discover that that's not your honor you know it's their honor to create critique your work and you kind of have to take your feedback head down mouth shut and that's what it means to be an artist, right? Yeah, yeah, sure. You don't get to choose when content becomes controversy, right? But you can choose whether controversy becomes your content. Yeah, you know, and so I was like, okay, this has happened. And if I cannot pivot this towards something that brings people joy, I failed, you know, and I think that's really the job that we have yeah if you can't have a sense of humor about your stumbles ain't nobody gonna have a sense of humor about your stumbles so i just had

to work really hard for that pivot i'm like can i use this drama to give people joy then i remember just watching a chris rock uh clip where i think he had just gone through the oscars thing and and you know he put out a statement just saying my statement is if you want to hear me talk about it watch my comedy special and I was like oh that's that's what I have to do now

I have to shut up I have to keep my head down and the first thing I have to do is write a joke about this and it's a it's a strange puzzle to solve because you're like

okay how can I write the joke because the first time I go out on stage they're going to be thinking it I will have to talk about it yeah when do i talk about it and can i write a joke that will make both sides laugh and not lionize me or victimize me so the first thing i wrote was i think it was like march and this happened in november i just went underground for two months it was uh i was on the homepage of the BBC.

There was a big headline that said, comedian polarizes the nation on the BBC. Do you know how badly you have to fuck up before the British say that you divided India? It's an amazing joke. Right? So now both people are laughing. Yeah. We've addressed the fuck up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? And we've added a little bit of British hatred, which doesn't hurt. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They can take a punch. They can take a punch. And I'm like, okay, maybe this, you know and we've added a little bit of british hatred which doesn't hurt you know yeah they can take a punch they can take a punch and uh i'm like okay maybe this and and i'm not a victim or a hero

in this joke you know so maybe this is the tone that i get to set for the special yeah so that's been maybe the central theme but also that if you can buckle down during the hatred, you'll find that love finds you. It's always around the corner. You know, wait for it. That was a really powerful thing that you said during your recent special, which is on Netflix, which is that hatred is louder than love. Yeah, hate is yelled, but love is felt.

That's so true. Isn't it though? Yeah. But love lasts longer man you just have to if you can find a way to I'm not saying block out the hatred hear it and let it affect you

because you're an artist, you're a human being but trust that love is right around the corner and I think a lot of artists will hear the hatred and harden and not make it around the corner you know yeah I think that that's one of the things that's so

confusing I think in our culture right now there's a sense where people are like you can't say anything anymore I was talking to this guy in Nashville, Tennessee I didn't know him but he goes what do you do for a living and And I go, I'm a comedian.

He goes, you can't say anything anymore. And I go, you can. You can. You can. And then I started talking to him about Lenny Bruce. And I go, you know, Lenny Bruce got arrested for speaking negatively about the government and religion and all these body things.

And he was arrested. And I said to this guy, I go, you know, if comedians start getting arrested, I will be concerned. Very, very concerned. But you're an actual case of you weren't arrested, but you could have been. I could have been, yeah, but it's...

Did you fear that you would have been? I come from possibly the best privilege that you can come from. Oh, is that right? And I have to be cognizant of that. I come from possibly the best privilege that you can come from. Oh, is that right? And I have to be cognizant of that. You know, I'm a Hindu heterosexual male in India. It's pretty much like straight white man in the US.

You know, things are, and I've been in Bollywood. I have a cushion. I have a legal team, et cetera. There are certainly comedians who are less successful or from different religions who have had much tougher legal situation and had to deal with it i was never worried that i would be um and the biggest worry was never that the biggest worry was always i think i let people down i think that that impacted me far more than anything else it's not been i've been in the film industry and you know all of that stuff for 15 years so i've had a controversy or two yeah you know so i do know how

to roll with with that part of it but the biggest thing was man i think i let people down yeah and i'd always prided myself on being the guy where irrespective of how you felt like thing about ideology i would make you feel welcome enough where we would disagree about it but laugh about it under the same roof and i'm like did i drop the ball and so you know like that you shamed the country no i i think that to me any feedback is good feedback right as long as it doesn't um turn into hatred or threats right and and me, I don't think anybody who watches that video will doubt my love for my country. No.

You know, it's... But what was the fear? What was the actual fear? There was no fear. It was just a sense of guilt. You know, you feel guilty that you maybe hurt somebody's feelings or something like that. And yeah, you want to make sure that your family is okay.

So you're like, okay, you guys didn't sign up for this crazy journey. So are you guys all right? So I was just focusing on that. And I think you're worried about like, I hope they'll be open to my next joke. Right. When you did, you have like an odd journey to becoming a stand-up comedy star. Because it seems like you started out as a comic yeah then pivoted into acting yeah bollywood yeah and blew up in that space and then sort of

doubled down on stand-up and that's when you sort of had more stardom and that is a very flattering way to put it let me tell you the truth okay okay Got into standup, snuck into Bollywood, was a part of two really big movies, right? So like the second lead in like a really big, in two really big movies. Yeah. Started getting leads, did two or three really good movies, and then did like seven gigantic piles of shit. Oh, wow. And then I did one really big one that crashed and burned. And I think it was the most amount of money

that had ever been bet on. Oh my God, really? For a Friday. Wow. And I couldn't make the release, right? So I didn't bring in the people. And the phone kind of went cold for a while. Yeah.

You know? And at that point, there was an American agency in town and they were like, we saw you on YouTube, let us sign you, come to LA, take meetings. And I was like, all right. And I ended up doing a spot at the Laugh Factory in the improv. This is 2015-ish. I fell in love, man.

Oh, no kidding. I had like a visceral moment. I think I followed like Whitney or somebody on stage. I killed. And I was like, oh shit, this feels better than anything I've done in the last five years. It was undeniable. And so I spent a year kind of traveling around America just to fall in love with stand-up again. That's so fascinating.

So you did stand-up here. It went well. And you're like, oh, this is what I should be doing. And I mean, you had grown up in India, you'd moved here when you were like high school college age. I came here for college. I went to Galesburg, Illinois. Yeah. And then went back immediately once my visa expired. But I, I'm obsessed with this idea. And, and I, you know, this year, I went to London and Paris and Iceland, and I hope to do more in 2023 where I perform internationally. But I love the idea that a joke can unite human beings.

Of course it can. Just people in general. And it's really impressive to me when I watch your specials that they're so funny and this is not you weren't born into American culture you moved here and so your stuff plays here and plays there does it play better in one or the other? I don't think it matters anymore

in a weird way and I think that's the beauty of the Netflixes and the YouTubes I think what also helped is there's a local palatable version of indian culture wherever you go in the world and now that's done to death you know those five indian stories that you guys have heard you know brown boy will he be able to be with the white girl because the parents are unhappy right uh they came over with one suitcase in dreams uh you know i think you've seen every version of those stories we've seen the archetypes you've seen the archetypes and you're like now we need new indian stories and we need authentic indian stories that represent the billion and

the modern india and so now when when i perform for americans it's kind of more important to be authentically indian yeah than it was before. Yeah, you say that in your special, you were like, you Americans think that, because you filmed in New York, you Americans think that we talk like this, but actually we're more like I'm speaking right now. Yeah, Mumbai is one of the, Indians here are far more conservative. Right, the Indians who moved to America are more conservative

than actually the Indians in Mumbai. Yeah, for sure mumbai is a party city kids in mumbai are getting drunk doing drugs having fun you know hooking up that's mumbai right that's fascinating yeah but but you don't see that right it's never represented in culture over here or in movies over here we're always sort of this model minority monsoon wedding it's monsoon wedding or or really hard-working guy right right we're given a lot of credit for all being really hard-working right we're not that fucking hard-working right you know or we're on a boat with the tiger oh we're on a boat for a long time for a very long time and it's not a tiger what a fucking letdown like the whole movie this tiger wasn't there what spoiler alert on life of pie it's funny because mark forrester was on the podcast the other day and he

he said this thing that i think is is great which is which is as as artists we always have to just destroy our our own egos and when we start again on the next project yeah Yeah, I go to the comedy cello and I see comics who most people do not know who are 25 years in. I'm 16 years in, right? And they're assassins and you're terrified to follow them. And I think that's a healthy goddamn feeling. You know what I mean?

And also I like following them. And I like being somebody who's hard to follow too. I agree, I'm with you. I love both of you yeah you and i were talking backstage the other day about how uh it's fun to be at the comedy cellar because you feel like you're playing playing tennis with the best tennis players in the world and that's the only way you get better yeah yeah yeah and there's no sympathy there's no no and there's no back padding either you know no no and there's oddly no real uh over recognition for being famous like i followed ray romano and chris rock and all kinds

of people there and you know the audience goes crazy for two or three minutes and then they're like all right what do you got yeah like we've seen a lot of good people tonight what do you have yeah but some people are coasting on that not just on poppins but on full runs you know what i mean oh for sure like i've seen people milk the fame thing for six minutes seven minutes eight minutes but you can't fool an audience why do you because you you have so many specials i mean i want to say you have four or five this is my fourth yeah this is your fourth yeah why do you why do you, because you have so many specials. I mean, I want to say you have four or five. This is my fourth. This is your fourth. Why do you want to create more?

Why? I kind of have a different view on specials that I think a comedy special is a piece of cinema. For the first time in a comic's life, your box is next to Scorsese's box on Netflix. And you get to compete for people's attention. And I think that stand-up gives us a better shot at dynamics than an average film does.

So many things have to come together in a film for it to have good dynamics. In stand-up, it's such an easy fix. So you have to make sure that it's filmic and that it tells a story and that it has a structure and that there's surprises and silliness and discomfort. And yours, I'm not going to give away any of your surprises, but yours has surprises.

It has. Yours in special has really nice twists in it. Oh, this is something I think about all the time, which is I think comedy is in a completely unique moment in time in the sense that there are a group of people who are game for sort of anything goes in comedy. Sure. You can say the most reductive thing, doesn't matter.

Yeah. And there's a group of people who go, I don't like generalizations. I don't like joking about stereotypes. I don't like this. All those are valid. I say that and thank God for jokes. All of those feelings are valid.

You're allowed to feel that way. It's fine. It's all fine. You have comedic generalizations about Indian people that are very funny and make me laugh. Like for example, you go, there's part of me that, you know, some people think I'm too Indian. Some people think I'm too American. And then you go, but you know, I'd prefer an Indian doctor. Yeah. You know, but I'm laughing and I'm going, well, this is generalization. Yeah. Yeah.

Where do you stand on, in your own comedy, generalizations versus stereotypes? I think if you're going to do a generalization, you have to follow it up with some sort of agreeable authenticity. Otherwise, you're screwed, you know? What do you mean by that? So, okay, if you look at that joke

specifically right it is um i um i would never use a white doctor i want an indian doctor yeah now that's a generalization purely of course right i would let an indian engineer treat me before i let a white doctor treat yes yes getting closer getting warmer I don't want curative medicine. I want cheap, efficient solutions now. Oh. All right. Far more specific in terms of, so at least I'm doing a little bit of homework coming from sort of a general space.

Right. And then get into like a very specific engineer joke about a belt that was invented, that an engineer invented in India. Right. So in India, somebody invented a belt that burps you every five minutes. And so that's how I work.

It does what? It burps you every five minutes. Really? Yeah, so that's where the joke winds up, right? I did not follow that part of it. Yeah, so I'm trying to get really specific with that. Right, in other words, if you had just gone with the generalization

in some ways, yeah, yeah. In some ways, it's a little easy. Yeah. But then you've got to kind of zoom in, zoom in, zoom in, zoom in. Yeah, yeah. So you show you've done the work, right? Because you're not going to come to America and not have Americans be like, oh, there's a lot of Indian doctors. It's something we know. Right.

Well, it's like, yeah, exactly. Where's the turn? Yeah. Where's the turn? How are you going to surprise me? Yeah. Because anybody can make a generalization. Anybody can say a stereotype. It's the easiest thing where's the turn how are you going to surprise me yeah because anybody can make a generalization anybody can say a stereotype it's easy it's the easiest thing you could do yeah but it's like i'm going to use that and then we're going to go somewhere else and i also yeah i like subverting a stereotype i love doing that too so i do like talking about a stereotype and

then switching it a little bit you know know, like there's a gun control bit in the special where I say, you know, now most people who watch my stand up and assume I have a political ideology that is slightly more left or liberal would be like, this guy is against guns. And I am vehemently against guns, right? But so I talk about America,

I talk about gun control, and I'd be like like i worry about being shot but i want to be friends with one guy who has a gun right right so and that's a very specifically indian thing so i like taking that american stereotype for instance yes and subverting it a little bit you know and that also speaks to when you want to get into the weeds on generalizations sometimes with comedy with jokes by going personal you're making an audience realize a generalization that doesn't exist yeah so so in other words like you make that joke about you

you'd like to have one friend who has a gun yeah it's like people a bunch of people are laughing well maybe some other people think that yeah but but i think i'm also kind of figuring it out because there's also rules that are set for stand-up in america that don't apply anywhere else in the world oh i know and if you if you start thinking of this as a global game it's a weird one like i'm still early on that journey like i haven't figured it out yet i'm i'm hoping to i feel like i'm around the corner well like one of those rules would be i you could do an impression of my voice but i could not do an impression of your voice and that has a history yeah a lot of that stuff has history you know like for for example the

apu movie you know uh the problem with apu saw it, but I can tell you that a billion people don't feel the way about that movie that a few million people of the Indian diaspora hear. How do you feel about it? About the Apu accent? Yeah. Couldn't care less. Couldn't care less, interesting.

I know more people who sound like Apu than I do, you know, I hear an Indian boy from here speak in an American accent about Apu. His accent's weirder to me than Apu. You know what I mean? Because to me, that's a strange or unfamiliar sounding accent. And if you want to go deep into the dynamics of it, he's a, I think Akash had this in his special or something,

but you know, he's an immigrant guy, runs a business, he's successful. Should it have been voiced by Hank Azaria? Maybe not. But why'd you kill a character? It was a great story. It's really funny because Zarna, we're mutually friends with Zarna Garg,

and I love Zarna, and a lot of times she'll say something to me, and I'll relay it to somebody else. I don't do her voice. Yeah. I don't do her voice. Yeah. And when I tell other stories about my other friends, I do do their voice. You should do her voice.

What'll happen? What do you think will happen? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what the, I feel like, I feel like a lot of people are like me where we're not sure what the etiquette is. But do you think it would matter that you did the voice, or do you think it would matter more what you said in the voice? Because nine out of ten people who would do the voice

are saying, like you said, extremely reductive things. Oh, yeah, of course. But if you did the voice, and it was a surprise, or it was astute, would it matter? I don't think it would. No, no, you're probably right. And certainly Zarna wouldn't care. Zarna wouldn't care.

Most Indians wouldn't care. That's interesting, yeah. Who's left? Five college kids in two publications. Fuck it. Who have huge social media followings. Well, yeah, that was one of the things that was interesting too about

you acknowledge sort of the punching down concept. And you're like, that is really just a Western comedy concept. I think when you, again, get into the weeds with privilege, there are barometers to measure privilege that is consistent. And these barometers have been set by media and discourse. And I don't think of privilege in that manner. I think of privilege as something far more volatile that changes on a weekly basis. And that could be here today and gone tomorrow.

And it's far more intersectional, I think, than the West views privilege. What do you mean by that? Because you say that in the special. Like, in other words, one day you could be rich, the other day, next day you could be poor kind of thing? Is that what you mean? Yeah, or it could be taken away from you for not a cancellation or not a mess up.

Right, or you could be hit by a bus and you could be hospitalized and you couldn't walk the rest of your life. Yeah, and I think at some level, it is the knowledge of a punch up or a punch down serves a comedian better. But the call out of a punch up or a punch down, I feel like nine times out of 10 makes the audience member feel better about themselves. You know, the joke in the special is, we're all just calling out our own privilege before other people call out our privilege. We can feel better about enjoying our privilege, right? and so i do think it's it's exercising that demon you know that is such a beautifully economic joke that is a beautiful several words explaining a concept yeah so i do think that's what it is

jimmy carr has this really interesting thing where he talks about when you call out someone yeah for punching down you're actually making a judgment on what is down yeah who died and made you the decider of what's up and down yeah you know i mean he's interesting because he's also i don't think he's uncancellable but he has a certain amount of escape velocity he's uncancellable, but he has a certain amount of escape velocity. He's uncancellable. Right, but with intelligence retained. Oh, he's so smart. Which is, I haven't seen that combination very often.

Sometimes I think most people who are uncancellable really go at unintelligent things. And I think Jimmy Carr kind of retains that intelligence. He's very thoughtful. Because I think he's a deeply feeling person. and I think he doesn't want to hurt people but he understands the healing power of jokes when they work well. I also think that how do you think of a comedy show? Do you think of it as your hour with them or their hour with you? It's for them. Exactly. Yeah that's how I think about it. But I think it's an easy comedian temptation

to think of it as your hour with them. You know, because I've worked really hard to get my hour with them. It's not about them. They got babysitters. They saved for weeks. They put a lot on the table to come and see you, you know. And if you think of it in that sense,

when that flip happens, I think your entire comedic perspective changes. This is a really important point. And I think you and I have this in common. I had a, I had a flip. I didn't, I think in my twenties, I was more immature and I thought it was about me. And then in my thirties, when I started doing these solo shows, Sleepwalk with me and my girlfriend's boyfriend, I started to see that it would affect the audience in this way. Oh, God, it's about them. That's who it's about. Did you have a flip? It's two college kids in my front row. And this is a true story. My front row is expensive. It's about 5,000 rupees. And my last row is 500 rupees.

What's 5,000 rupees, roughly? I'm bad at math. A couple hundred bucks? Divide by 80, yeah. So, you know, but notionally, it's a lot more. Okay. You know, if you think about what that means. 80 bucks, 100 bucks, yeah.

It's expensive. Probably notionally feels like about two, 300 bucks. Okay, oh, wow. And these two kids were there, right, in the front row. And I try and keep my last row 500 bucks, which is like 10 bucks or whatever. So that I get a range of people in a large room. And I was being an asshole.

And I was like, hey, two kids in the front row. I guess dad bought the tickets, right? Or mom bought the tickets. What industrialist is your dad? Or is your dad a VIP, et cetera, et cetera. And they're like, no, we save for this ticket. And I'm like, really, for how long? And then one kid goes, we saved for four months.

We're in college. And one kid goes, we skipped lunch. Oh my gosh. You know? And I'm like, what the hell does that mean? And they're like, lunch in the canteen of the college is between 80 and 100 rupees. We skip lunch to come and see you.

And I'm like, I will never be less than 200% ever again for the audience. I will send them home flying on a goddamn cloud. That is my job. They skip lunch. a goddamn cloud you know that is my job yeah they skip lunch you know yeah no i mean it's it's a privilege to be able to perform in front of a group of people and and they took a lot to be there i mean i always tell the story about the old man in the pool where someone came up to me in los angeles after the show and she said it was watching the show i felt like i was with my dad who's no longer

with us and it's like well if you have the opportunity to connect with people and give people that you should really strongly consider doing that as opposed to making it about yourself or even letting the noise dilute

your performance by even 10% I do believe that if you and i'll go down a comments rabbit hole i'll go down a you know a hate you know scroll or whatever etc because comedians tend to fixate but then i'll remember that if i'm at 90 and not at 100 for those two kids because of some random person who's never going to come and see me. Yeah. I'm unprofessional. This is the thing we do called the slow round. Okay. Do you remember an inauthentic version of yourself?

My Bollywood career, no. Mine too, of course. No, I, yeah, I remember arriving at an event and caring who arrived first. I was, you know, four men were in this sort of event and I just remember going, tell me when that guy has arrived. That's so funny. event and I just remember going tell me when that guy has arrived and I will go after and then you kind of catch yourself and you're like why does it make a goddamn difference when who arrives yeah what matters is how you make them feel right when you're there but I remember caring about that at some point when I was like 28 or 29 so yeah that's so great no i love i think it's so great that you're admitting that because i think that so often in comedy i think the great thing is when people when a comedian can admit that they were wrong about something yeah yeah that that's a great one that's 90 of my content

that i was wrong about stuff what is your role in your family that you grew up in? Like, what was your, what was the dynamic of your folks and you? I'm the get it done guy. Okay. Everybody else gets to fall apart. I get it done. That's interesting. So when the dog dies, you can all go into your room and cry.

I'll bury the dog,, you can all go into your room and cry. I'll bury the dog. You know? Wow. And when the, you know, when the grandparents go and all of that stuff, I'll get the Pandit. I'll organize the last rites, etc.

I'm the, I may not be as comforting or as expressive as the rest of the family, but you'll call me and I'll get it done. Can you describe a school lunch from growing up? Yeah. I remember when it was your birthday in school,

you got this dirty pineapple pastry. Really? Yeah, it's terrible. And this is like in an old British military academy. So you're up in the north, everything's terrible. And this is like in an old British military academy. So you're up in the north, you know, everything's frozen. So it's hard as hell on the inside. And then this soft pineapple, vanilla cream that leaves a layer on your tongue after you're done eating it.

And a pineapple, which is synthetic pineapple. It isn't really pineapple. You know, like those cherries, those fake cherries that you get? Sure. So I remember that. Oh, wow. And I remember, no matter whose birthday it was,

like fucking eight of us cutting little slivers of that and giving it out. Do you have, it's so funny because when Hasan Minhaj was on the show, he was saying

he still has resentment towards British government. And he didn't even grow up in India. But that his parents don't. That his parents sort of like honor the crown or whatever. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's always like, why? Why?

What's your relationship with it? I want more discourse about it. I could care less about the British royal family, et cetera, et cetera. But I feel like India footed the bill for a large industrial revolution and for a lot of that to happen. And you need to talk about it.

I want to see it in more books. I want to see it in more movies. I think that there's a healthy discourse around, not reparations, but slavery in America's past. There's a healthy conversation around it. There's not enough conversation around what happened to india that's how i feel i agree with that yeah do you remember a strange neighbor or like family friend growing up uh yeah i remember my my grandparents were both Buddhist leaders. Okay.

And so they were part of this chanting group called Soka Gakkai. And what that meant was my house was always full of 20 or 30 people that were waiting to see my grandparents. Oh, wow. And for their counsel, right? So I'm just this kid. Like I left boarding school when I was 13 and I came to live with my grandparents.

And my parents didn't come back from Africa till I was like 17. So I had four years of puberty, really living with two very old people who were Buddhist leaders. So there were things you could do in the house. There were things you couldn't do in the house. It was always very quiet.

There was always chanting happening. The whole house smelled of incense and old carpeting. And I just remember these, a lot of people that came into that house really needed to be in that house. You know what I mean? They needed help. They needed help.

And so I just remember this one lady who I saw over the course of two or three years looking younger every time I met her. Fascinating. And then at some point, my grandfather's name is Baba. And I looked at Baba and I'm like, where's that lady? And he's like, she's never coming back. And I'm like, why?

And he's like, she's happy. Oh, wow. So I'm like, that's the journey with my grandparents, right? That they make you younger and younger and younger and hopefully you never need to see them again that's amazing do you feel like your your inclination in comedy is healing the way that your grandparents were healing people i haven't thought about it that much and and i wouldn't put that like that feels like really building myself up and and i would just let me do it that's what i'm here for but i do want a sense of elation when you leave yeah like i want two things all right one there's a moment in a comedy

show or in a musical concert etc where the artist on stage and the audience both kind of go you know and it's the sort of a i'm so fucking glad we did this yeah you know and when it's magic it happens at the same time yeah you know the the performer feels it at exactly the same time like it's that one big applause break from something so unexpected that was unorchestrated. And it's completely spontaneous. And you both kind of go, oh, it's good to be here right now. Isn't it in this moment?

I want to orchestrate that once a show. And when you walk from my show to your car, I want you to be flying. That's what I want. So you were away from your parents from 13 to 17? From 7 to 17. 7 to 17? I went to boarding school when I was 7 and a half years old.

And parents were in Africa and I was in India. And why did they go to Africa? My dad was making tomato pulp and pre-cut potatoes, as sexy as that sounds. And then you went to boarding school and then lived with your grandparents. Do you think all that's tied up in why you're a comedian? Well, my granddad has a really interesting story. He started out as a policeman.

Yeah. And then became a government servant. And then was the Indian ambassador to Bhutan. Then took over Air India, which is India's national airline, then received something called the Padma Shri, which is like our knighthood. It's the highest civilian honor you can get. And I tell dick jokes, but and then became this Buddhist leader. And so I grew up in a house with this man. And we have a very international family that are kind of foreign service people, etc. And so when I was between 17 and 18, 16 to 18, I would go to the airport three times a week to pick up somebody and drop somebody. Oh, wow. Because my grandparents' house was this open house

of people who needed help flying in or cousins and this and that. So I spent three nights a week going to the airport. And here were all these people who look different and they smell different and they had different clothes and they had different, they looked like they'd seen the world. That's the largest influence of my life is just being at the airport going like someday I need to be the guy going to the airport, you know, instead of the guy waiting for people at the airport. That's interesting. Like, what do you mean by the person going to the airport you know instead of the guy waiting for people at the airport that's interesting like what do you mean by the person going to the airport i want to be the guy arriving

or leaving rather than a guy waiting for them like i remember you know new delhi in the summer picking up my cousins who had just flown in from america via frankfurt germany and they had jackets on you know and these jackets had some sort of a german logo on Germany. And they had jackets on, you know, and these jackets had some sort of a German logo on them. And because they hadn't adjusted and it was still cold on the flight, or they had a sweater on. And then they would come in and kind of take that sweater off.

And they would talk about how Delhi smelled different. But what I could never tell them was like, they smelled different to Delhi, you know, like that. To like to you to me like their luggage and their jacket yeah you could smell it in the car and i'm like that's what germany smells like i guess wow and i want to go like america has a very distinct smell that nobody talks about can you describe it? It's detergent and carpeting. That's what it is. We're over-chlorinated. The whole country smells of detergent and carpeting. Yeah, no, it's true.

I think that's right. Detergent and carpeting. Carpeting, oh my gosh. Carpeting is the hugest smell in my childhood. All I think of in my childhood is carpet. Yeah, but colleges, airports, any public space you smell like carpeting in America yeah

what the hell's going on that's great what's the best piece of advice someone's given you in your life that you used tangibly it's something that i do uh with the people who manage me like i got a really good piece of showbiz advice would that count yeah um they're

like all the people you work with um sit them down once a year at the top of the year and just be like all right we got to do three things we deserve and one thing we don't deserve this year. And then just leave them alone for a week. Let them think about it. And then let them come back and tell you what they think you deserve and what they think you don't deserve. And it's a really good eye-opener

into how they feel about what you're doing. Wow. I'm going to break this apart because it's a really interesting idea to me. So in other words, your co-workers, the people who are part of your team creating whatever you're doing,

in your case, your manager, what are you saying to them? Tell me what you think we deserve to do this year. And then one thing that maybe is like outrageous like a little bit outside of what our league maybe we're not really yeah so if it was new york for instance it's like okay do we deserve uh radio city music hall yeah do we not deserve madison square garden yeah you know but if somebody went to you and they were

like we think you deserve the beacon, but you don't deserve Radio City Music Hall yet and you think you're there, you just know how forward they're thinking. Yeah. You know?

Oh, that's really interesting. And do you give no hints? I give no hints, but I make it a we thing. Right. You know, it's never a me thing. Yeah.

I'll never be like, you tell me what I deserve. It's, what do you think we deserve to do together? Yeah. Would you like to make a tv show together would you like to go to japan this year i've never toured japan yeah think about it because then why can't i fulfill some dream of theirs jointly with them you know what's the best piece of relationship advice anyone's ever given you that you used? If you make her laugh, the fight's over.

Yes. Well done. That's it. I think that's a really good one. Right? Put that on the wall. Okay, so this is a section called From the Notebook. Okay. It's just sort of new things that I've written down and jotted down. One thing is I don't spend a lot of time on my appearance

because I feel like that game is over and I've lost. And I'm not going to suddenly win by wearing a nice outfit at the post-game dinner. This is true, completely true. I didn't know you could buy clothing that fits your body until like last year. Like, and now I'm obsessed with it. I love clothing that fits your body because it changes the narrative.

It's no longer, Mike, your body doesn't fit into those pants. It's like, Mike, your ass is so perfect, a tailor sculpted pantaloons to drape over it like a silk tarp. I love that. And you can, I mean, the two things that it sends me to, does this age change? Oh, that's interesting. You know, like the age where you, you know, where you decide you're done with the fashion game right because now it's 43 44 years old yeah did it used to be like 26 you know i mean where guys

like i'm 26 and i don't give a fuck what i wear anymore right you're right that and that that's worth exploring is this idea of like of like when i was in my 20s, I really genuinely didn't care at all. Because I think in your 20s, I think your genes generally give you a lot more. You know, it's like you have a lot going for you that's for free. And then your 40s things start to fall away and you're like, maybe I need a hat. But also as your friend,

I think the place that I go to when, like if I see a 43 year old man or a 44 year old man suddenly come to me in fitted clothes, my first thought is, how's the marriage? Oh, no, I think that's absolutely true. So you think you've just found fashion, but you are putting out unhappiness in the world. What am I doing?

What's going on? You're just watering everybody around you. Yes, I like this. I like where you're going with this because this is what, when I work with Ira Glass on Stories for This American Life, he's always like,

okay, what's the story and what's the story under the story? Yeah. And that's, I love that you're saying that. It's like, what is, is that a deeper unhappiness? Is it a deeper insecurity? Is like, what is,

what's under that? That's great. That's fantastic. Do you have anything that you're working on that's sort of half done? It's kind of what I was talking about as well, where I was like, I think if you put,

like I'd written this down, but I'm like, young people in America are very excited about telling their story and speaking their truth. And it's because you're given choice early and tools later. But I feel like Indian kids are given tools first and choice later. So like, if you put an American 20-year-old

and an Indian 20-year-old in the same room, the American 20-year-old would be like, I'm a pansexual vegan juggler yeah but the indian kid would just be like i'm exhausted i'm exhausted like i've been studying for 26 years and i'm 20 you know right and now is when i get choice so we arrive at choice much later in our lives oh that's interesting and perhaps just as as you guys start speaking your truth is when we start getting comfortable telling lies. Right. So I think it's a reverse kind of a childhood thing.

So that's the shit I'm thinking about. I wonder like in India, because certainly like in America, like so many things right now are identity based. Yeah. Like you're saying, I'm pansexual, I'm this, I'm this. Is in India, do people people is that part of the dialogue i think it is but but i think i mean we work our kids really really really hard is that

right so i think college represents freedom for kids here yeah and i think the years right after college represent freedom for kids in india so you find a lot of young kids just joining the workforce who are exhausted because they've been studying so hard for 21 years. And then they join the workforce and go nuts in their first two years, which you get out of the way in your first two years of college.

Yeah. But Indian college is very hard. Well, yeah, maybe, I mean, this is a loose tag, but it's like, you know, I'm a pansexual, this is a loose tag, but it's like, I'm a pansexual, this, this, this. The American kid says this. The American kid says to the Indian kid, what are you?

And the Indian kid says, what are the options? What's A? What's B? What's C? What's D? I will get this right. The last thing we do on the show is called Working It Out for a Cause. And basically, if you have a nonprofit that you think does a good job, we contribute to it, we link to it in the show notes.

I can look it up online right now. All right. contribute to it we link to it in the show notes i can look it up online right now all right uh i would say uh there is a charity called voice of stray dogs so they just do really really good work with feeding street dogs and getting them sterilized and uh sending them medication etc so this looks fantastic one of the largest no-kill dog sanctuary and hospitals with 8,000 plus life-critical resources and hundreds of resident dogs in Bangalore, India. Yep.

But we look for dogs all across the country. That's fantastic. Well, I'll contribute to them. Thank you. And we'll link to them in the show notes. And Vera, this is thrilling. Well, we're going to have you back. I'm going to see you at the Comedy Cellar.

Done, man. Hopefully it's the beginning of a long friendship. Working it out, because it's not done. Working it out, because there's no hope. Veer Das' new special is called Landing. It's on Netflix now. You can follow him on Instagram at Veer Das, V-I-R-D-A-S. I am at the Mesa Arts Center

in Salt Lake City at the Kingsbury Hall in Utah, March 17th. Our producers of Working It Out Are Myself, along with Peter Salamone and Joseph Birbiglia, associate producer Mabel Lewis, consulting producer Seth Barish, assistant producer Gary Simons and Lucy Jones, sound mix by

Ben Cruz, supervising engineer Kate Belinsky. Special thanks to Marissa Hurwitz and Josh Upfall. My consigliere is Mike Berkowitz. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks to J-Hope Stein. Her book Little Astronaut is in your local bookstore. You can follow her on Instagram at J-Hope Stein.

Special thanks as always to our daughter Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. most of all to you who are listening tell your friends even tell your enemies it's valentine's day uh you know of course you you'll maybe you'll give your valentine something but maybe you'll send a valentine to someone who you don't like and And it'll be, it'll be, it'll be a Valentine. They'll go, wow, I'm so surprised

that Hank sent me a Valentine. And you'll open it up and it'll say, you know, I think you'd really enjoy this podcast. Mike Brickley is working it out.

It's very romantic. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you next time. We're working it out.