Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - 99. Craig Mazin: The Definitive "The Last of Us" Interview, Sort Of

Episode Date: May 15, 2023

When Mike became obsessed with the series “The Last of Us” on HBO he had questions. And he went straight to the source. This week Mike welcomes the writer/producer/director Craig Mazin, who co-created the" The Last of Us," starring Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey. Spoiler alert. If you haven’t seen "The Last of Us," be warned, there are spoilers in this discussion. There’s also a lot of advice and insight about screenwriting and storytelling. Craig is a screenwriting sage— in addition to co-creating "The Last of Us" and "Chernobyl"— he also hosts the podcast ScriptNotes with fellow screenwriter John August, which is Mike’s favorite podcast about screenwriting. Also, if you’re interested in supporting screenwriters, now is the time. Please support the Writers Guild of America. For more information on the writers strike, visit https://www.wgacontract2023.org/strike-hub.Also, please consider donating to Be The Match

So one thing that's really interesting about the video game, one of the reasons I love it and wanted to adapt it is Joel and Ellie are just people. They are not superheroes. They don't shoot things out of their eyeballs. There is no science fiction technology. There is no magic. It is just reality. just reality. And we were able,

because we were doing it in live action, to go even further with that and say, Joel is in his 50s. He can't sprint. He can't walk around crouching for an hour the way you can in the video game. He's got Mike Birbiglia-esque energy. He has a Mike Birbiglia-esque aerobic capacity. He has a Mike Birbiglia-esque aerobic capacity.

And he's not as susceptible to pizza. Oh, my gosh. I'm glad you had the conversations. These are the hard conversations. It's why we didn't go with you. That is the voice of the great Craig Mazin. This is one of my favorite episodes of all time. We called

an audible on this episode because I love his series on HBO that is called The Last of Us and I'm Not Alone. That series has been seen by upwards of 30 or 40 or 50 million people. It's so popular.

It's extraordinarily popular. And it's great. I actually don't even want to say anything other than there's spoilers in this episode. If I were you, if you like this podcast, I would watch an episode or two or all of that season and then come back and listen to this episode. This is a lovely episode. Craig is the co-host of Script Notes with John August, who I hope will come and visit our show as a guest as well. Another one of my favorite screenwriters.

Script Notes is a podcast about screenwriting. I would say hands down the best podcast about screenwriting and possibly just writing in general. Like, it's extraordinary. The other thing about this episode that I love is that we talk a lot about writing screenplays from scratch. Craig has written a lot of movies and television. He has extraordinary insight into it. You get a taste of that today. And so if you're a writer or creative, I think this is a great episode for you.

One of the things that's interesting about Craig is he started in comedy, wrote some of the Hangover movies, wrote Identity Thief, a bunch of huge, huge comedies. And then recently made Chernobyl for HBO, which is extraordinary. And now The Last of Us. Again, spoilers galore. Oh, and I'm working on a new show. We're working on new material. I'm going to be in Indianapolis

this week. I'm going to be in, we just added shows in Long Island, at a small club in Long Island called Governors in Levittown. It's a great club, great place to see the show. We're adding some shows coming up in Sag Harbor,

New Brunswick, New Jersey, Providence, Rhode Island. I'm going to go back to the Columbus Theater to do an encore there because I love that Columbus Theater. It's a little intimate attic space they have where I've worked out material for my shows the last few times. I think you're going to love this episode. Oh, another quick thing is A Man Called Otto, a film that I play a role in with Tom Hanks, directed by Mark Forrester, who was a guest on the show on this podcast in January, is now on Netflix, which is fantastic. People have been writing to me, Mike, you are a bad man in this movie. And it's true.

I'm the heel. I'm the antagonist. I'm an actor. Please, please be understanding. I'm the heel. I'm the antagonist. I'm an actor. Please, please, be understanding. I'm an actor. But watch The Last of Us and enjoy my conversation with the great Craig Mazin. After I watched Last of Us, I had to resist just calling you and asking you all the questions I'm going to ask you today on the show. I appreciate that.

Because you have shown a restraint that others have not. Oh, is that right? Well, look, I don't mind. It's a nice feeling. You would prefer people calling you after each episode than silence, just total silence. Do you think of me as more of a Joel or an Ellie? Oh, God. That's a great question.

I've actually – it's a rare person that reminds me of neither Joel nor Ellie. You have literally none of any of their, you don't have resilience as far as I can tell. You have no grit. You're not violent. You're just, I don't think you would last a moment. Your immune system isn't strong. I meant this to be a humorous moment, and what it's pivoted into is just plain cruel.

Yes, but you also knew that would happen. So when you were casting Joel, you were thinking like, we want a Mike Birbiglia type, but obviously we can't get him. No. So what about Pedro Pascal? What about someone who's like sort of more famous, but maybe isn't as believable as a survivor in this scenario? It was made clear to us that you were the most gettable person of all.

Like there's a ranking system of getability, and you are a perfect 100. So we always knew we had you in our back pocket. Oh, my gosh. Which I think is great. It's really important to just, you need a fallback plan. No, of course. In case, you know, and so you were plan X.

Oh, plan X. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you so much. Yes, you were plan X. And you know what? I got to say, it's, maybe we'll to say, maybe we'll work you in there somehow. Oh, yeah, please. I mean, we got Melanie Linsky's husband, Jason Ritter.

Jason Ritter got to be an infected guy running around. I would love to be an infected person. Oh, well, my friend, all you need is a plane ticket to Vancouver. Oh, yeah. We'll handle the rest. Note that I'm all you need is a plane ticket to Vancouver. Oh, yeah. We'll handle the rest. Note that I'm not even giving you a plane ticket. Oh, I'll get that. No, I'll get myself a plane ticket.

I'll fly coach Air Canada. Are you kidding me? Get me there. No, and the infected people. I mean, I watched the behind the scenes stuff too. I mean, those people are astonishing physically. What they're doing physically is amazing. Yeah, we really lucked out.

I mean, I think it's not even luck. The game had put so much kind of interest out there. So by the time we're looking around and saying, hey, who's going to be a clicker? Yeah. There's a guy who's obsessed with the game who's very tall, very thin, and a dancer. Right. And I think for years had been kind of doing the clicker as a party trick. Oh, interesting. And the clicker's like... I mean, he does the whole thing. It's the thing, yeah. And makes the sounds and everything. And we're like, get this guy. For the listeners, it's these

characters who are infected by a fungus, and that's why they're clicking, making a clicking sound. Yeah, these people, the fungus has sort of erupted out of their head, so they don't even have eyes anymore, so they echolocate by making clicking noises, which is scary. This episode is sponsored by Spoiler Alert. And Tenactin, fighting fungus wherever you get it. Tough acting. Tenactin, fighting fungus, wherever you get it. It's tough acting. Tenactin.

What a strong tenactin call-out. Yeah, yeah. Do we get, like, impromptu money from tenactin? Oh, yeah, yeah, you should. Yeah. I always recommend your podcast to everyone uh script notes to everyone and and and a tip of the cap to john august who we hope to have on this podcast as well um who's another brilliant screenwriter but but one of the things i always i always send people to is you have an

episode where you just describe for 40 minutes what you, how you think one should attempt to write a screenplay. Right. I send it to everybody. Everyone I work with, I send it to because it's a great shorthand for, this is what I have in mind. This is, and what you basically say, and I'll let you sort of say it better than me. What you basically say is all of these books about screenwriting and these classes and all these things, and this happens, it has to happen at page 10 and this has to happen at page 30 and this has to happen. The second plot point here, you can throw that all away. And essentially it comes down to people

want to, to see a story that gets you interested, keeps you interested, and takes you on a journey. Yeah, the books are almost all written from the point of view of a post-film analysis, where they'll take a movie apart and show you how it all works. I mean, the analogy I use in that particular episode is that the people that are teaching screenwriting or writing screenwriting books are kind of like pathologists. So they bring you in and they open up the body and they show you, oh, look, here's where the liver is. Here's where the lungs are. Yes. But taking a body apart does not help you make a new life. It's an entirely different process.

Yes. Wow. And so how do you build something when there's nothing there if all you've been taught is how to take apart things that pre-exist? So there are these things that they say that are true, like there's in the midpoint, a character should have like a shift in perspective. True. Yeah. Yeah. Why? And so what I talk about, I what I talk about is why. And all of it basically comes down to following a character who believes in one thing. Yes.

And putting them through torment and torture until they finally, as an act of faith, behave in accordance with the opposite of what they used to believe. And that is a very hard thing to do, but that is at the core of what human striving is. We believe in this, but we need to undo that belief and see the opposite side of that to get to here and grow. That's what every Pixarar movie does literally every single one yeah it's basically uh i think at one point in the episode you describe it as the there's a thesis of of a film and eventually the protagonist is going to arrive at embodying the thesis and because at the at the beginning the character is the anti-thesisesis and the antithesis really wants to maintain his or her life as the antithesis.

And so there's all these moments along the way that push the character back into being and embodying the antithesis. And eventually, if you write it well enough, the character plausibly ends up becoming the thesis or embodying the thesis. Yeah. And that's why I think we like stories because that's what we go through as people. You know, when you're feeling something and you're terrified of what you're feeling and

you don't want to say it because you're worried that it's going to cause a problem or disrupt your life. So you just don't. So you don't because you're afraid. We all know that feeling. And then you think about, well, maybe I will say it and you kind of tiptoe towards it and all the things you were afraid of happening happened, but times 10, well, now you're absolutely terrified. were afraid of happening happened, but times 10, well, now you're absolutely terrified. So this is part of our job as writers is to create a character that reflects that reality for us and make them go through things that are external and terrible. So it's not just like, okay, I'm really, really scared now because I got nervous because of the way the person I was starting to tell this to felt. It's more like there is a meteor that is going to smash into us.

And I really don't want to say the thing that is terrifying because it will put me at risk from the meteor and all the rest of it. And then you get to a point where you're like, no, no, no. The answer is I have to grow and be honest and confront my fear. It is so simple. All we do, all therapy is, is us eventually getting to what we're afraid of and then facing it and trying to get through it. As far as I can tell, that's what therapy is. Which is why we're inspired by watching movies, reading books, where the characters can do this thing that is so hard for us to do. There are certain kinds of stories, and I think The Last of Us is one of them, or at least this chapter of it is, where we actually, where we end up, we're not sure

if that person broke through in the right direction. Yes. And it can get complicated, right? It's not as simple as you just have to tell, you have to stand up for yourself. And then finally at the end, you stand up for yourself. There's a whole genre of movies from the 90s where the entire movie was about a dad that didn't spend enough time with his kids. And then a whole bunch of stuff happens.

And at the end, he comes and he's like, you know what? I'm putting family first. Work isn't as important. And that's incredibly simple. And also like all those movies were made by dads that were not with their children. But they're more complicated outcomes. But in the end, that's it. Now, comedy has to do all that and make you laugh. And make you laugh. Yeah. It's like, you know, Ginger Rogers,

doing it backwards and in heels. But what about, I think that there's examples of the antithesis of the type of film that you're describing, which is like the Coen Brothers movies, for example. In the Coen Brothers movies, it's like, like if you look at Serious Man, it's like, no matter what the characters do to grow, ultimately, it's a rain on their parade at the end. It's just, they're dead.

Right. So you- Spoiler alert on Serious Man, which came out like 20 years ago. I tried to be as upfront as I could when I was outlining how do you write a movie, that it was really about traditional narratives that we use in Hollywood. What the Coen brothers and a lot of other filmmakers do are things that very studiously avoid clarity, but nonetheless provoke. I think the Coen brothers in particular have the most remarkable intelligence. So I, for instance, I'm obsessed with Barton Fink. So I have all these theories about- One of their first movies, which was about a playwright in Hollywood. Exactly. So it was based roughly on the real story

of Clifford Odets, who was a New York-based playwright who was writing about the common man. And he gets drawn out to Hollywood to write screenplays and just gets dumped right smack dab in the middle of Hollywood grotesquery and vulgarity. And yet, perhaps it is he who is the problem.

And the Coen brothers made this film. So Barton Fink plays this playwright. He goes out to LA. He's living in this horrible hotel, and he has a neighbor played by John Goodman, who, as it turns out, is a serial killer, but also the nicest guy. as it turns out, is a serial killer,

but also the nicest guy. And there's all this wonderful illusion to decay. The wallpaper is peeling off the walls and there's all the wallpaper glues oozing. John Goodman has an ear infection and there's ooze coming out of his ear. There's a lot of a sense that maybe John Turturro's in hell. It's incredible and it defies clarity and instead provokes you to think about the film in terms of all sorts of possibilities. And when I got to work with John Goodman on the third Hangover movie, and I worked up my courage. So like on day three,

while we were sitting there waiting for some shot to be set up, I just brought up Barton Fink and how much I loved it. And I said, look, I know what I think it's about, but what do you think it's about? Or did they ever tell you? And he said, they never told me. And he said, and I have absolutely no idea what it's about. He said, my job was to be there on time and know my lines. And I just kept it to that. Okay, so when I was writing Don't Think Twice, I was having a series of readings in my living room with friends and screenwriter friends who you were

generous enough to come over and give notes on that script. Some of the most significant notes in the whole process. And one of the notes, and I note it when I'm watching your work, because you execute it so well as you, at the phase phase of don't think twice that it was at you said um in the middle of the movie we're ahead of the characters or we're ahead of the story we know what's going to happen before it happens and you basically said once once that happens the audience is gone and i never have that with uh with the last Us. I'm just never ahead of it. And the question is, what are tricks towards achieving that? Are you running scripts by friends and saying, hey, are you ahead of it? Are you ahead of the story? No. No? No. I mean, I have my producing partner who reads every page, and we go through it with a fine-tooth comb, and she will call out certain specific things.

But I think, and on The Last of Us, I had Neil Druckmann, who read through everything. Created the video game in the first place. Exactly. That it's based on. And co-created the show. But I think that mostly comes out in the planning phases, I'm not a sit down and start writing guy. I'm a planner. And I think that planning helps you avoid some of that. It helps you start to think about the show the way you might think about one of your shows, which is I need to

constantly surprise and confound. And because comedy and magic are basically the same discipline. It's just that one is way dorkier than the other. But I need to misdirect. So I'm always thinking about that. Because it's the equivalent of like, okay, I've got a bunch of jokes, but it's pretty clear that everybody knows where this joke is going halfway through. That would be so sweaty.

So I think about that. But the other, if there's a trick, it's just to remember that characters are confused about the world around them. And to try as best you can to write impressionistically, meaning what is it that they see? What do they think is going on? What conclusions do they make? And how are they wrong?

Because their wrongness, that's what's going to... This is great. You know what I mean? So it's basically like, what do they perceive is happening? What do they perceive? Visually, what are they seeing? Sonically, what are they hearing? What are they hearing? What presumptions do they have? What presum What do they perceive? Visually, what are they seeing? Sonically, what are they hearing? What are they hearing? What presumptions do they have? What presumptions do they have? What presumptions have been reinforced? What have been reinforced and

how are they wrong? And then as it turns out, how are they wrong? How are they wrong? Because ultimately, which is a great metaphor for all of existence in life, which is we're all wrong. Yep. We're all wrong all the time. Basically, every year, we learn about things we were wrong about last year. Every 20 years, we learn about even bigger things we were wrong about 20 years ago. And every 50 years, forget about it. Exactly. And the same thing works for characters, that they should be making false conclusions. The key is, whatever it is that they're concluding, when you're watching it as an audience member,

you need to look at what they're doing and go, yeah, that makes total sense. Yes, their conclusion is correct. Ah, they're smart. They figured something out. So when that character gets the rug pulled out from under them, so too do you as the audience member. It's interesting because your collaborator, Todd Phillips,

on a bunch of movies kind of famously and controversially said he was leaving comedy. Or that comedy movies can't be made anymore, something like that. Yeah, they can. I think they can. I disagree with his point because there aren't great comedy movies still being made. But I think there's a grain of truth in what he's saying in the sense that I think that even in my solo shows, I find it increasingly hard to admit things about myself that are wrong or that are flawed without a handful of people on the internet saying, aha, I caught you. You did something wrong.

And I'm like, right, that's what the show is about. The show is about my flaws. Because if I did a show that was essentially an Instagram post about myself, look at how great I look in this sunlight on the beach. That's not a show. And it's just not interesting. And it's just not interesting. So yes, there are people that make themselves feel better

by pointing out what's wrong with other people and judging them. And I'm sure there was some religious guy who said something about that a long time ago. Don't guess. Don't guess. No, no. The guesses are offensive. Yeah, yeah. Good. Genius Christ. Genius Christ? Genius Christ said. There are people like this. There's Maria Bamford, who is one of my favorite comedians, had this great bit where she talked about going through this experience of screwing up and saying something and then people coming after her. and then she said, you know,

later somebody else did the very same thing she did, and she got to yell at them and discover that there is no greater joy than teaching someone a lesson that you have just learned yourself. Ah! so in episode three there's a relationship between nick offerman's character and another excellent actor, Murray Bartlett. And it sort of lit up the internet in a certain way, a discussion of this episode, because it's these two men who find themselves

in a romantic relationship in this wildly unbelievable scenario of essentially the end of the world, or close to the end, maybe. We'll find out in season two. But it's the end of the world or close to the end. Maybe. We'll find out in season two. But it's in an apocalyptic kind of like scenario.

They find themselves in love. Previously, one of the characters was not out. Out. Out of the closet. The other one was. Was openly gay. And they find themselves in a gay relationship that is very deep.

And I think the reason that the episode was, went so far and wide was two reasons. One is, it is, I feel like 10, 15 years ago, at least in a show like this show, I don't think this would have been an episode of the show. It just doesn't seem like it would have made it in. And I think, too, the reason it moved people is not because this is what men do, this is what women do, this is what gay couples do,

this is what heterosexual couples do. It's because it's love and it's about this beautiful, loving relationship these two characters have. Yeah, it's an interesting question if it were 10 years earlier. I mean, the game came out 10 years earlier, and in the game there is an allusion to Bill's homosexuality, but it is all kind of sub-rosa. It's barely hinted at,

really. You never meet Frank, for instance. In the game, Frank is dead. So you show up, and Bill is there, and Bill, you go on these missions with Bill, and he's a cranky guy who's angry and talks briefly about how he had a partner that he doesn't work with anymore

and you think it's business partner and it turns out it's life partner. And then you eventually find Frank who's hanged himself and Frank is left behind a suicide note that is the meanest, like I would rather be dead than spend one more day with your fucking annoying ass. And so obviously, I suggested to Neil

that maybe we try something else. It's an interesting question about the audience and how far they go in accepting things. I think you're right in that our society has changed dramatically on this issue. Yeah. And where I think people connected on that particular episode is with a kind of story we actually don't see much of. And it's not a gay romance, although they are. It's old. Oh, right. It's about-

They're in their 50s. Yeah. It's about- They're in their 50s. Yeah. It's about two middle-aged men with normal bodies, although actually Murray's ripped. It's really, it's upsetting. But just, you know, regular sort of people-

Relatable folks, yeah. Who then experience the reality of monogamy over the course of years and how love isn't romance. Love isn't the first spark of sexual attraction. That's all amazing. Love is another thing entirely. And watching that unfold, I think is what connected people to it. But the people that I heard from the most and who were, I think, the most moved were middle-aged married men. Married gay men. Yeah.

Who were like, yeah, we don't see ourselves. Gay people see themselves on TV all the time now. Yeah. Gay people see themselves on TV all the time now. But middle-aged married gay people who are dealing with stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with their sexuality? No, you don't see it much. a very opinionated friend who said that at the beginning of that episode, he was very dismissive of, oh, they're just doing it just because. They're making it a gay couple just because.

That's what shows do, and Hollywood is just trying to always make sure that every group is accountable. And then he's like, by the end, I was crying all over myself. And it's a testament to just that ultimately, no matter what background a character comes from, that it has to speak to the humanity of the character or else it's just not going to work. Yeah. And it is not just because. Because there is this thing where you can say, well, why do you pick a couple to be a certain way? I mean, for the longest time, couples were heterosexual always because, just because. Because you understood that was the option that was available to you. And then when this other option became available, absolutely some people just started saying,

oh my God, look at this. We were never able to do this before. Let's just do it just because. What's interesting about, I try as best I can to make every choice intentional, whether I decide a couple should be straight or gay or whatever, there is some sort of additional

purpose behind it. And that includes for heterosexual people. Like what is that additional purpose? And in this case, I was fascinated by the idea of a man who was closeted from everything. He wasn't just closeted from sexuality. He lived in a fucking bunker. He's a survivalist. He was literally, yes. But survivalist in the sense of I have sealed myself off in my home, my mother, with only my mom who died. Nobody in the community even is like, hey, where's Bill? They barely even see Bill. He's in his bunker hiding. And then when everybody leaves, he's happy. And then the first thing he does is he

puts a fence, an electrified fence around his little part of the neighborhood. And so his closet just gets bigger, but it's a closet. And the idea of one person coming in and saying, oh, I see you. Yeah. Like almost immediately. And so the danger is letting someone into your heart, which is all about what this show is about. Yeah. So it was very intentional, but I'm happy that your opinionated friend didn't just sit there with his arms folded, grumbling the word woke over and over.

But some people probably did, right? Oh my God, yes. But I feel like, I remember when I was a kid and I went to go see E.T., it was so emotionally devastating to me towards the end when E.T. had to run away and was like found like, and I was so ashamed of my vulnerability and emotional response that I just

refused to acknowledge that ET was good. I was, I was like, I was like, I just decided it was manipulative. And yeah, so is everything that we made. All art is designed. It's intentional. I don't know if that, but I couldn't handle it. And I think some people just, some people honestly just don't like it. That's totally fine. I don't mean to imply that no one could possibly not like this stuff, but I think some people begin to have emotional responses, are ashamed of their emotional response, and just go all the way the other direction because they're protecting themselves. I have a funny story about that, which is that when Don't Think Twice came out in the theater, Questlove was at the theater, and he was walking out of the cinema, and there was a woman crying literally in tears and saying that was the worst movie I've ever seen. And he walked over to her

which I'm shocked by and explained to her that actually actually this is a classic mansplain that actually if you're experiencing this emotion, it might not be the worst movie you've ever seen. Yes, unless she had just spent her last $12 on that ticket.

I don't see why. But it is hard for people to acknowledge because feelings hurt. They hurt. I mean, I watched the first cut of that episode, and I cried so hard. And it's not like I didn't know what was going to happen. And I was there every day we shot. I wrote it, and then I watched everything as we shot it.

But watching it all roll out, I just cried so hard. And I actually said, ow, it hurt. But I allowed it to hurt. I have a question, which is when people ask me sort of where one even begins in trying to be a writer of film or television or plays. It's like, where does one begin? And I always say, and I'm sure you get asked this constantly, which is why I'm asking you. I always say, write, keep writing, keep writing, keep writing, and get to the point where you feel comfortable sharing the writing with friends and then ask them what they experience when they're

reading it. And that will help you become better as a writer. And who knows where that'll go? Might go nowhere, might go somewhere. What do you tell people? I usually say, I don't know. Okay. I don't. Yeah, of course. I think everybody is so different. The only practical advice I can give is to figure out specifically what kind of thing do you want to make? Not write, but make. Do you want to make a kind of an indie film, an art film? Do you want to make a big, broad comedy? Do you want to make a thriller, action movie? make a thriller, action movie, whatever it is, give yourself the permission to write the movie you want to make as opposed to the movie you think you should be doing. This is particularly

important for film students who are soaking in movies that they may admire but don't necessarily want to make themselves. So once you figure out what it is you want to make, then watch your favorite examples of those movies and think about what you love. And then start thinking about an idea. Whatever the idea is, make sure it is completely connected to a character. And you can see, oh my God, this idea will screw up this character's life and bring them to a place. And then start outlining. I mean, this is just my advice. Some people can't. I mean, some people really just start writing.

I mean, some people really just start writing. Some people do the, like John August does the so-called vomit draft, where he just starts banging away and writes. And he's like, and it will be bad. And then I'll just revise, revise, revise. And that doesn't work for me. I have a different, you know, my brain works differently. Everybody's does. But start by figuring out what do you actually want to say

and do? That passion is going to be a requirement to move ahead. And you have a far better chance of being good at it than you do trying to do stuff that you think you're supposed to do. Do you think, because you had directed things before, but you've never directed things on this scale. You directed episode one of Last of Us. Yeah. Did it give you, did it make you want to direct more stuff or go back to just writing the scripts?

I loved it. I loved it. I think that the thing about directing is it, in the prior, my prior experiences with directing were pretty traumatic. They were done under terrible circumstances. Nowhere near enough time, nowhere near enough money. Collaborators that just weren't collaborative.

A head of a studio who was an absolute tyrant. Name names. I don't want to say his name. I'll give him a pseudonym, Bob Weinstein. Let's just call him Bob Weinstein. Okay. So Bob Weinstein just treating me horribly. And I used to complain about Bob Weinstein all the time.

And then Harvey happened and I can't, I'm like, God, I sound like an asshole. I'm like, oh, I'm complaining about a Weinstein because he was a real, he was grouchy. I think other people have more serious complaints than that. But having control over the thing I was directing was so important because there was a trust on HBO's end. I will do this the way I think it should be. I'm working with a great cast. I'm working with a great DP. I'm

working with a great team. They all support me. I have the time I need to do the job right without doing crazy long days. Then I can control the edit. And when all is said and done, it was incredibly satisfying to do. And for the first time, I felt worthy. Why are we all obsessed with end-of-world scenarios like Last of Us? Why are we obsessed with watching these scenarios that are, for some people, too dark, but obviously not for 32 million people plus people? some people too dark, but obviously not for 32 million people plus people. Well, I think for certain scenarios, it is just about placing a tremendous amount of pressure on characters. It is a different kind of war. Yeah. It's like a war movie where you, instead of bombs and mortars and gunfire, you're dodging zombies. But for other people, I think stories of the apocalypse and the post-apocalypse are about addressing our mortality. It is easier for us to contemplate

the mortality of humanity in general than it is to contemplate our own individual mortality, contemplate our own individual mortality, which is terrifying. But in the end, we are also fascinated by decay because we understand it is our destination. Yeah. We will get there, and we too will decay. It's cathartic, I actually think, in an unexpected way to comedy, which is comedy in a lot of ways, we're laughing at someone on stage

saying a thing that is outrageous, and yet there is some truth to it that we identify. And I think like when I'm watching Last of Us, and I'm even watching Chernobyl, I mean, when I'm watching Chernobyl, I'm going, yeah, I could see myself being that person. I could imagine myself being the person who doesn't speak up in a scenario. Right.

And say, hey, we should acknowledge the truth that there's a major nuclear crisis on our hands that's going to affect this entire continent. And I could imagine being the character in—I mean, what's amazing is when I watch Last of Us, I joke about it, but it's like, I see myself as Joel. I see myself as Ellie. I see myself in the characters. Well, that's fantastic. Which is a credit to you. Well, they are, so one thing that's really interesting about the video game,

one of the reasons I love it and wanted to adapt it is outside of some of the difficulty sliders you can adjust in terms of combat and how it functions in the game, Joel and Ellie are just people. Yeah. They are not superheroes.

They don't shoot things out of their eyeballs. Guns have limited ammunition. There is no science fiction technology. There is no magic. It is just reality. And we were able, because we were doing it in live action, to go even further with that and say, Joel is in his 50s. He can't sprint.

He can't walk around crouching for an hour the way you can in the video game. He's got Mike Birbiglia-esque energy. He has a Mike Birbiglia-esque aerobic capacity. And he's not as susceptible to pizza. Oh my gosh. I'm glad you had the conversations. These are the hard conversations. It's why we didn't go with you. You needed someone slightly better than me to play me. We call it Birbiglia Plus. Slightly better than me to play me.

We call it Birbiglia Plus. But can I ask you a question? With Ellie, am I wrong to say it's in the tradition of Star Wars or those messianic stories are often about the Messiah coming to understand that they're the Messiah, believing in their Messiahdom, and then achieving the miraculous. So Luke doesn't believe he's special. He's told he's special. He's told he has to become this thing. He doesn't believe, he doesn't believe. He finally believes and he does. Same with

Neo. Ellie is not that at all. I think Ellie is... The inverse, I suppose. All Ellie wants is to be loved. Just somebody that grew up with no parents.

She had one friend that she wanted to be more than friends with. And the moment that was made possible, her friend died. She's never known what it meant to be safe in the arms of somebody you could rely on and count on. And her greatest fear that she expresses to Sam is ending up alone. That's her greatest fear. That's all she wants. And the fact that she might be the cure

for this scourge that has taken over the world, it's not anything she has to be active about. And we learned at the end, there's nothing active. In fact, it's the opposite of active. She just has to die. That's all. She doesn't have to believe in herself and fly she just has to let somebody pull something out of her brain

and that will kill her she has to go under the knife and she'll die and that's how she'll save the world but all she wants is to not be alone and you are Ellie. Actually, that has been said to me more than once by a few people. The final thing we do in the show is we do Working It Out for a Cause.

And it's any organization that you think is doing a good job, we will donate to them. We'll link to them in the show notes. Oh, that's amazing. I always love bringing up Be The Match. Be The Match. So, bethematch.com is the national marrow donor database. So, people who have serious blood disorders, often leukemia or things like this,

blood disorders, often leukemia or things like this, sometimes the only cure is a marrow transplant to replace the marrow that is creating the blood cells in their body so that they don't have the cancer cells being created, but rather healthy ones. The issue is that you can't just take marrow from one person and put it in another. The immune system will kick it out in almost all cases. But some people are matches, meaning my marrow can go into your body, into your bones and thrive. And the only way they can figure out who's who is if you register with Be The Match with the National Donor Registry, you swab your cheek and you send it in and now they know. And it's just in there. And when somebody comes up and needs a donor, they swab their cheek and then they stick it in the computer and pray to God that a name comes up. And if it's yours, you get to save someone's

life. And it's the simplest thing to do. And it's so important. I can't think of anything more frustrating than the knowledge that your child could be saved. Yeah. Except we just don't know where to find the one person that can do it. We just don't know. That's so frustrating and upsetting. And so here's an easy way to get around that. Well, we will link to them in the show notes.

We'll contribute to them as well. It's an honor to have you on, Craig. I appreciate your friendship and wisdom. And I hope we can get some viewers for your show because it just seems to be- Floundering. Struggling to get over the hump, so to speak. Yeah, yeah.

This should do it. I think so. I feel like I'm rooting for it, and I think our listeners are rooting as well. That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. How about that, Craig Mazin? So smart, so funny. Check out The Last of Us It Out. How about that Craig Mazin? So smart, so funny. Check out The Last of Us on HBO.

Also, listen to the Script Notes podcast. I always say there's hundreds of episodes. They're free. I always say people don't necessarily have to go to film school if you want to be a screenwriter. Listen to 200 episodes of Script Notes and decide whether or not

you still have to go to film school. Thanks for listening. Our producers are working it out for myself, along with Peter Salamone and Joseph Birbiglia. Associate producer, Mabel Lewis. Consulting producer, Seth Barish. Assistant producers, Gary Simons and Lucy Jones. Sound mix by Shubh Saran. Supervising engineer, Kate Belinsky.

Special thanks to Marissa Hurwitz, Josh Upfall, David Raphael, and Nina Quick. My consigliere is Mike Berkowitz. Special thanks to Jack Antonoff and Bleachers for their music. Special thanks to J-Hope Stein, my wife, the poet. Her book, Little Astronaut, is in bookstores now. A perfect belated Mother's Day gift because you failed your mother yesterday. Is that true? I don't know. Hard to say. Also, she has these great, if you love Little Astronaut, she has these signed,

homemade broadsides of her poems at jhopeshop.merchtable.com. They're gorgeous. Special thanks, as always, to my daughter, Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows, where this all began. We're approaching our 100th episode. We're so excited. It is going to be a very special one. If you're enjoying the show, please rate and review it on Apple Podcasts.

That really helps us out. You can just write what your favorite episode is, and then people know where to begin in this jungle of 100 episodes of the show. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. Tell your friends, tell your enemies. We had Craig Mazin today. Maybe you're a big fan of The Last of Us,

and you're online at a coffee shop, and you hear someone talking about The Last of Us, so you know they know the show, and there's these characters on the show, and Craig calls them clickers, and they kind of sound like this. Like you can walk up to that person and just be like, and they'll know what you mean.

See you next time, everybody.