Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - Nathan Lane: The Safest Thing You Can Do Is Take a Risk

Episode Date: March 23, 2026

(Recorded February 2025) Nathan Lane sits down with Mike and recounts moments from his legendary career — discussing what it was like to work with Mike Nichols, Elaine May, and Robin Williams. He shares what he likes most in a director, who he’s jealous of, and what he remembers of twenty-something year old Mike. Plus, an incredible story about working with Joaquin Phoenix on the film Beau is Afraid. Please consider donating to Broadway Cares Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Who is someone you're jealous of? Well, that's not fair. To ask someone in show business that? Well, let me get out my list. That is the voice of the great Nathan Lane. Nathan Lane returns. But this time to the studio, this is as excited as I have a, Ben, and nervous for that matter. Even though Nathan's my friend for many, many years, I'm just

in awe of his talent. You might know he presented my very first off-Broadway show, Sleepwalk with me in 2008. He has been a huge guiding light in my career and in my life, and one of the great American actors. He is in a new series called Mid-Century Modern that comes out on Hulu, March 28th. I am thrilled about it. We talk about that today. We talk about all kinds of acting roles he's done over the years, and man, does he have great stories. I just love, love, love this episode.

By the way, thanks to everyone who has come out to my final shows leading up to six shows at the Beacon Theater. I've been working recently with my director, Seth Berish, and our set designer, Baywolf Barrett, who brilliant said designer did Old Man in the Pool and the new one. And actually all my shows are lighting designer Aaron Kopp. We just have a great artistic team for this show at the Beacon Six shows, March 16 through 22. Thanks to everybody who came out in Northampton and Burlington.

I'm doing a few shows in Los Angeles at Largo. And I appreciate it so much. I love this chat with Nathan today. We talk about Robin Williams. We talk about the Birdcaid. and Mike Nichols and a film, two films that he was in that I love. One is Bo is Afraid, and one is Dix the Musical. If you haven't seen those, I highly recommend them.

Bo is Afraid is starring Joaquin Phoenix. It's actually one of my favorite movies in years. And Dix the Musical is an absolute riot. So I recommend those as well as mid-century modern. Enjoy my chat with the great Nathan Lane. Last time I saw you, you were making fun of me because when we were at your dinner with your husband, Devlin, and my wife, Jenny, because you think I, you said that I'm friends with everyone who's on my podcast. And you were like, how many more friends do you have? How do you know everyone so well?

Well, you've been doing comedy a long time, so you build a large rolodex of friends. You know what it is, though? I was thinking about it. Because it's, I think because comedians, we wait back to back at the comedy clubs for, you know, there's a lineup of five or six people. And so you're just like waiting upstairs. So you're just talking to me all. Yeah. But you know everybody.

I don't know everybody. But I did the Conan, you know, needs a friend podcast. And the whole notion of friendship and or a best friend. Yeah. I find interesting because I think, you know, I mean, I always think my best friend is devil and my husband. Yeah. But that, you know, when I was a kid, you know, having a best friend. Yeah.

I don't think I ever had a best friend. And then one time I thought I had a best friend and I found out I really wasn't. It was somebody else. Oh, right. Yeah. I thought I had gotten apart and then they told me that no, they went another way. So it's interesting. the best friend.

Yeah. Who's your, like, like Matthew Broderick's best friend, he's, is the playwright, Kenny Lonnigan. Oh, that's right. Yeah. You know, from childhood.

Yeah. And I sort of slightly envy that, you know, that kind of. I envy it too. I think adult friendship is so complex. Yeah. Even you and I have been friends since 2008, which is many, many years ago.

And I feel like I, there's nothing I was planning to say. You don't know me at all? No, no, I feel like I do know you. I feel like I can call you, which is the thing that you extend to yourself in that way, it makes it feel like, oh, I could always call you if I was in a jammer in trouble.

But I think the gray area of friendship as a grown-up is, when should you call someone? Versus like, can you call it? Well, you've fallen and you can't get up. Yeah, yeah, well, that's the only instance I can think of. for sure that you can. You know, if you want to talk through something or... Yeah.

Or just check in, you know, and tell someone, you know, tell someone you love them. Yeah. Do I call you enough? No. Should I call more often? Well, I don't want to... Don't be a pest. Okay.

But, no, I'm kidding. You know, you're a busy guy. I'm occasionally busy. You're not occasionally busy. So you're always busy. You work more than any actor I know. That's not true. You're in everything.

No, who did I just see? Oh yeah, I was watching, John Lithgow. I saw him and I went, this guy is in him. He's in everything. But no, I'm always happy to hear from someone you care about and loved. It's no, no. I don't think I'm not, you know, I don't have a clicker going. He hasn't, you know, he only called me three.

times this month. Right. If you started calling me a lot, I'd be worried. I think something's gone horribly wrong. Right, right, right. Calling me for advice. You were at S&L 50. You performed in John Mullaney's musical.

Yes. Which was hilarious. Were you... So you see a lot of people there. You see probably a lot of friends. Some, but yeah, the most intimidating room I have ever been in. And I've been to the Oscars and big events, but this was something. Did it stress you out?

Sure. Look, I'm getting stressed just the memory of it. I was going as a guest. You know, I... Because you've hosted the show a bunch over the years. In 1997, I was hot for 20 minutes. And I was asked to host. I'm a member of the one-timers club.

Which, and I got to say, there's more of us. than the five-timers. So we could have a rally and maybe go to... Maybe you win the popular vote? Go to number two. It came up.

Look, it was an incredible two days of, you know, the rehearsing of it. It was only, you know, the kindness of John Mullaney saying I'd like Nathan to be in the sketch and do this little cameo.

And so I was like, oh, well, it'll be nerve-wracking, but, you know, how I was so honored to be asked, and what an historic night that will be. Yeah. But just, it was like, I said to somebody, it was like, you know, walking into the television set and seeing all these people from past and present casts and just, and all of the other famous people over there, and just being able to say how much. you know, you've loved them

and what they've done and how they've made you laugh or however they've touched you and yeah, it was astonishing. Is there anyone you get intimidated by in a room like that? I'm very starstruck and I'm very, very

I'm very nervous. No one's buying it. Well, it's shocking, you know, when you meet somebody like Leslie Jones. I've always wanted to meet Leslie Jones. I think she's hilarious. She just kills me.

And there she was. She was standing there. And I finally, I had seen her like at the rehearsal, but I get too nervous. And then there she was, and I said, oh, I just, I have to say how much I love you. And she went crazy. You know, I wouldn't think I would be on Leslie Jones's list. Rheenar. And yet, I would, but go ahead.

She was totally, it was just, it was such a pleasure. You know, or, you know, Lady Gaga, we're walking out. Devlin and I, and Lady Gaga turned to me and said, oh I love you and I was like oh my god it's Lady Gaga I don't know that's wild I love you too it was a lot of that yeah an unforgettable couple of days and I was I was just thrilled to be a small part of it you say that you get intimidated by people but there's I just don't believe it

somehow I feel like I strains credibility I don't know it's something to go it goes back to my mother it's like I don't you know some I'm not not worthy. I don't belong here and they're going to find me out kind of, you know, sad thing. There was vestiges of it. You know, you try to deal with those feelings, but yeah, it's intimidating. Did your mom see you get successful? Yes. She did. Sure. Was that satisfying? Yeah, I mean, you know, with her, you know, she was bipolar. Yeah. And so the notion of trying to to make her happy. She had not had a happy life.

And so in those later years, just wanting, you know, saying, what can I do for you? How can I, you know, trying to make her life better. And there was very little you could do that would do that because essentially all she really ever wanted was for all of us to be together. Yeah.

Living together. Yeah. Sure. You know, the whole, you know, me and my children. two brothers. That's really all she wanted. And you know, it's that thing, I remember seeing this in a Jules Fifer play, grown-ups where she would, you would be there and she would say, when am I going to see you again? And you would go, I'm here. Look, I'm here right now. You're seeing me now. I relate to that so much. That's my dad. Yeah. You visit, and then you're leaving, and he said,

we should spend time together sometime. No, this is, we're here. This is what we're doing. Right. And, yeah, you know, I have a, there's a memory of me leaving one time visiting her. And she just, she grabbed my hand and she squeezed it and she said, I hate to see you go. That's so beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

You know. And. But, yeah, I mean, I think that my success was very meaningful for her. And she was very proud of that. Yeah. And, yeah. She saw you become Nathan Lane from Joe Lane. That's right.

Did she like that? Well, when she would call me Nathan, it was like there were quotation marks around it. Nathan. Nathan. But most of the time she called me Joe. And you did it for actors' equity, basically, because there already was a Joe Lane. Yeah, a Joe Lane. I remember years later, they, actors' equity, contact.

contacted me to say, you could have the name now. And I said, well, it's a little late for me to go from, you know, I'm not, you know, I'm not Prince. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got a man formerly known as Nathan Lane. Now Joe. So, no, it wasn't a good career move. But, yeah, no, there was already a Joseph Lane. Did you think of, was it spur of the moment when you were signing a job?

for actors' equity that you came up with Nathan or were you thinking about it for a bit? No, I went to join. I was eligible to join and then that's when they told me and it was sort of like it was a slap in the face.

I couldn't be Joseph Lane. And I guess I look stricken and the woman said it's okay, take your time, you think about it, come back and I said you know, but I said, no, no, just give me a couple of minutes. I went and I sat down.

And it's only because I had done, I had been, you know, working in non-equity theater. And I'd done a lot of shows and plays and musicals. And I had played at age 19, I played Benjamin Franklin in 1776 in Summerstock. And then I had played Nathan Detroit in a dinner theater production of Guys and Dolls. And I said, I'll either be Benjamin or Nathan Lane.

And then I thought Nathan Lane had a better rhythm. And I went over and said, I'll be Nathan Lane. Does it feel like you now? Yes, it does. It does. Joe Lane feels like a long time ago. Yeah. But believe me, Nathan had lots of problems too.

Was it like that? It was some, the magical ice cream. suit now that I'm nathed late the magical ice cream suit oh gosh so one of the things that I like that you did you did two movies that were far out

that I loved in the same year Beau was afraid and Dick's the musical it doesn't get more far out than that they're both so far out two of my favorite movies in a long time and you're fantastic in both of them

Oh, thank you. And I feel like, you know, it says a lot, I think about an actor. There was a New York Times piece, this guy who was the nicest guy, very indebted to him, Kyle Buchanan, wrote this piece, you know, because of those two films. Oh, yeah. And the title said, Hollywood finally figures out what to do with Nathan Lane. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, and I just like to say, not really.

But it was fun for a minute. It was interesting, though, because it's like, because there's very few actors, period, where you go, I'll see whatever they do. I feel like it's almost like a bygone era. And I feel like, I feel like you have that. I think you have an unbelievable talent, not just for being a tremendous actor, but choosing projects that are pretty far out. I mean, how do you just not?

It's not like I get a lot of choices. You know, that came up. Bo was Afraid came up. And I was, I knew the name Ariaster. I had not seen, at that point, I had not seen hereditary or mid, what are they, how do they pronounce it, mid-so-mar? Yeah, mid-so-mar.

Yeah, mid-so-mar. I hadn't seen them. But I knew that he had been acclaimed and that he was, you know, this, you know, new talent that people were talking about. And so I did watch the films and, you know, they were incredible. And then, you know, I said this script. And, you know, I'm reading it and I'm thinking, oh, this, he must have been on mushrooms when he wrote this or something.

You know, this is, you know, crazy. Oh, yeah. And it, but the original, originally, It was like a fake title, but it was called Disappointment Boulevard. I like that. And so I said to my agents, well, this is, I, you know, it's hard to make sense of this. And but, you know, he's, you know, I'm happy, you know, to talk to him. And he had written me this beautiful note and said, this is, you know, you're my first choice for this part.

And I, you know, so. And I knew Joaquin Phoenix was doing it. and I, you know, he's, I think he's one of our greatest actors in film. So, you know, we had a great talk, and then I said, yeah, sure, you know. It was, and it was just, you know, kind of figuring out the tone of that. And that was interesting to, you know, beginning that, shooting that stuff and finding our way. And I remember you came back, because I saw you. after you filmed it, and you were basically like,

very strange movie. We'll see how it goes, how it comes out. Yeah. But you loved Joaquin. Oh, I loved Joaquin. I loved them, you know, and I was, Ari, I loved working with. Joaquin is just, he would,

I remember at one point, Ari just said to me, he's not going to say the lines that are there. So just, your objective is to keep him in your house and just say whatever you need to get him to stay in your house. And he said, and if you can work in a couple of lines that I wrote, that would be great. Oh, that's amazing. And I said, sure, I could do that.

Is he like that? Oh, okay, that's why I think people find him challenging sometimes to work with Joaquin. Is that he, like you're saying, it doesn't necessarily say the line. We shot the first day with him, myself and Amy Ryan, who is a very old friend of mine. Oh, yeah. brilliant actors. This was the first time we finally got to work together, playing husband and wife.

So that felt great. But the first, we shot for three hours in this, you know, our teenage daughter's bedroom and it's with stuffed animals and boy band posters, you know. And Joaquin was like, you know, and this is the setup for our characters. Yeah. But he's playing the truth of, I've just,

I've been in an accident and I'm, and he's like Olivia DeHavilland and caged. And so we shop for three hours, and I thought, well, we could barely, but we can barely get our lines in. Yeah. And then I thought, I don't know about that. And then, so I texted Ari. It was at lunchtime.

I texted and I said, hey, it's your movie. You could do whatever you want. But, you know, when I read this, it seemed to be darkly funny. And this is the introduction to our characters. And I couldn't get any of the lines in. So I said, you know, that's all I'm going to say. But, you know, whatever you want to do. So he texted me back and he said, no, I don't think that went well.

And Joaquin is not happy either. And I said, okay. And then we went back. So Joaquin Phoenix, I don't know him. I just, you know, I just admired him from afar. So we said, we're talking and we're talking, you know, now. And we now three hours out the window. Right, now we're back.

Footage that you're probably not going to use. Yeah. So now we're back and we're talking about the scene. And I finally said, look, Joaquin, we don't know each other. And I don't know how to break this to you, but I think this is supposed to be fun. And I said, you know, we're coming out of 45 minutes of you in the Koppka-esque opening that's horrifying. And I said, and then everyone should think now you're safe in suburbia with these nice people, but it's something's a little off. And, you know, as written, you know, I think what Ari wrote is funny.

and you're speaking in kind of like he was speaking you know the lines were written it was like baby talk because he's so we've so heavily medicated him right what this leg here what you know it was like that yeah so uh i said listen you should uh so i try to give him a bit of business i said you know take one of those stuffed animals and put it under you and then when you have to make that weird noise you know i said just pull it out and stare at it oh my god and so he started to laugh He said, oh, I can't do that. I said, so why not? You want an Oscar? Just put your mind to it. So he started laughing and laughing, laugh. And then we were like home free. Then everybody loosened up, and we started to play the scene.

And then he said to me, I can't look you in the eye or I'm going to laugh. He said every, because then once they put the camera on me, I was, you know, improvising and just saying things to see what reaction. I were kidding. But he was a delight. And he was, you know, he's passionate and committed. And, you know, as Ari would say, he, you know, he can only be truthful. And if it doesn't feel real to him, he can't do it.

And he was, no, he's a remarkable actor. And a total sweetheart and totally not, you know, he's not pretentious. It's about the work, and I'm not some big movie star who's, you know, won the Academy Award. It's just how do we make sense of this? And so I just loved that experience. You know, it was only, it was very brief, so, but I had a great time. That is, that's a great example of, that movies, I feel like a lot of times, you know, you see the director of a movie when an Oscar or the writer or this or that, and they go,

I don't know, it was everybody. And that, it really is. Oh, sure. It's a very hard thing to describe to people. Even, like, your story about Bowes Afraid, I think he encapsulates that. It's like, you're an actor. You've worked for so long,

and you've done it a million things, and you're like, hey, I'm just going to throw it in my two cents. Well, I just thought we weren't, I was sort of reminding Ari that this is what you wrote. Yeah, yeah. You know, and we're not, we're going, I don't know where we're going, but it's not, and what you wrote is, is really good. And it's funny in this very dark way. And I, we shouldn't be afraid of that. Do you, do you remember other films or plays over the years where you did that where you're, you're in it and you have to remind the principles like, hey, we were going to, we were going to do this.

And we should probably do that. Well, that doesn't happen often. You know, I can remember this is the only first thing that came to mind when you said that was there was this in the bird cage. The word fag was used a couple of times. And sometimes it was like directly from the old French play. Oh, right, because of all. Yeah, it was a punchline. And there was this, and I had to say, you know, Alexander the Great was a fernic.

bag. And I, you know, and I kept, and I finally went to Mike Nichols and said, you know, this makes me a little uncomfortable. Oh, my God. You know, and it just, there's other ways of saying this. Yeah, certainly, yeah. And, and, and he was like, you know, yes, he said, and, and so, you know, and I gave him examples of what it could be. and, you know, another way of saying that. And he said, and I said, you know, it's, you know, and it's the only fag and the real fag in the scene. Yeah. I would rather not say fag.

Sure. And he said, I understand. And then he said, you know, but this was a job that was like, I was just thrilled to be asked to this party. Yeah, yeah, sure. You know, and so I, and he's Mike Nichols. He's Mike Nicholson is a huge break. Yes.

He's like God. He's in the 90s. And he said, but dear boy, could you just do one? Dear boy. As written. Oh, my God. As written. And I was like, oh, sure.

Of course, that's what's in the movie. Oh, my God. You know, it was weird. He wouldn't let, you know, Mike Nichols and Elaine made, two of the most sophisticated, most brilliant minds ever. Sure. And yet I always felt like because they came from another. generation where that word was a punchline yeah and it was it was allowed and it was okay and for some

reason he wouldn't let go of it or he wouldn't let robin refer to me as his husband i was referred to as his wife he wouldn't let him call me my partner and maybe it was that the notion of i want this to be a big mainstream hit and i don't want to offend anybody but you know you think then would We're making the, it's 1995 or six, whenever we made, 95 we were making it. You know, it's, it's, this is a gay, this is a gay story. You know, when I saw it as a kid, when I had first moved to New York in the late 70s, it was, that movie was playing on the Upper East Side for over a year. Macaigneur.

It was the most successful foreign film at the time. And I remember seeing it, I thought it was hilarious. And I just thought, what's so subversive. It's a French fall. But, you know, the gay people are the heroes. Right. In this. And so, yeah, I mean, look, I'm telling this story, but, you know, I have to say that it was, you know, it was a tremendous experience.

And they, Mike and Elaine were incredibly kind to me. And, but it was a weird, it was a stumbling point that I just, I was like, why is, why are they hanging on to this? Yeah, yeah. This word. Yeah. That's hard. It's because they come from another generation and I don't know. It was awkward for a moment and then, you know, but in an otherwise great, very happy, joyous experience.

I asked Elaine May recently and I said to her, just briefly, and I said, I've read in books over the years about you and Mike Nichols that you, that he would stick to his lines when you did the Broadway two-person show and that you would just make it different every night. She goes, don't believe anything anyone writes unless they were there. Do you feel like anything people have written about you over the years is not quite right or people get you wrong ever? All the time. In what way?

I've read interviews where literally I didn't say any of it. where they obviously thought I can write something better than what he said on my tape reporter. It's true. I mean, I mean literal, like a paragraph that I did not. I mean, that's outrageous. People characterize you, you know, I think because, you know, there have been times

and I'm like, I am, I know it's at my age. I'm near death and I'm still shy. Shy, it doesn't hold up well. in my age range. But, you know, people can take that as being standoffish or like, what's his deal? You know, no, I just totally, or just things attributed to me that I didn't say or do. What was attributed that you didn't say? Do you remember?

I don't know. Okay. You'd have to look up and find some quotes and say. Let me bring in my lawyer. Stewart, get in here. He has all the files. So when you work with these directors, and Mike Nichols and Ari Aster, I mean, you've worked with just Mel Brooks. I mean, you've worked to unbelievable people.

What's your favorite quality in a director as an actor? You know, they're the best ones usually don't say much. Not that I like direction. I like, you know, hearing thoughts about what's happening. You know, it's a bit of being a father figure, a therapist. And, you know, the director is for each person, it's a little different. However, they work and what it is they're doing. But it's, you know, the Clint Eastwood notion is he's cast you for a

a reason. He's not here to teach you how to act or how to play a scene. He assumes you've done your homework. It's a big assumption because not everyone does their homework. But it's an assumption that you're professional you're going to show up on time and

know your material and have a point of view about it and then only if he feels you've gone off on the wrong path will he say something. Yeah. It really depends. I mean I like I don't, you know, some people don't, you know, they don't want to hear notes or any of that.

Right. You know, they just want to, and they don't want to even rehearse. And in film, I kind of get that. They want to, let's see what happens. Right. You're all, we're all looking for that happy accident. Right. That's real and was unexpected.

Yeah. That's what you're trying to capture on film. I'm guessing you had that to some extent with Robin Williams on Birdcage. Because Robin seems like he didn't, he didn't stick to a script that often. Well, no, no, he was, Robin was very professional. And, but what we would, we rehearsed.

And then Mike had said to us just, you know, you know, feel free to improvise while we're rehearsing. Yeah. And then, um, even though he was very protective of Elaine script, he would usually say he would give us, you know, a, um, a free take, you know, to get it out of our system. Yeah. And out of that things came for sure, little moments and, and, no, Robin was, I mean, if, you know, he liked that if he did go somewhere, I would go with him.

Yeah. You know, and we would, you know, and we would kindred spirits in that way. We were both sort of like needy children who just wanted to please daddy. And he was, but he was, you know, Robin, you know, he made it very happy. atmosphere and joyous and kept people's energy up and entertained in between takes. Yeah. You know, and he was so, you know, kind and generous and loving and, you know, I can remember doing. I had to, it was, there was a musical number that was eventually cut, but I did a number in the club.

And so he had the day off and, and I remember he came in and I said, what are you doing here? I'm just doing this all day. And he said, he said, I want to be here for you. I want to support you. Oh. He, you know, he was, you know, he was just an incredible person, and I'm lucky that I got to work with him. Yeah.

Yeah, we say, but I only met Robin a few times, but when we did that Wounded Warriors benefit of the Beacon, he would, all of these soldiers who had been injured and had these severe injuries, he would go around and he would be the Robin Williams that's right. that people dreamed of meeting. That's right.

Which, of course, in show business, you never really get that from anybody because they're performing on camera or on stage, and then they're human beings. But he was the Robin Williams from the movies for people. Yes, he would do that for you, for people who needed it. He knew that was part of his job. But, yeah, I also just remember quiet moments with him.

He was very such a sensitive, soul, so dear and, you know, and easily hurt, you know, and just, you know, incredible. And we always sort of, I can't say that we became close friends. We would keep in touch, but we always had that bond of having done that film. Yeah. And it was, you know, it became, it was a success. And it was just a very fond memory for, I think, for everyone involved. So you did, Bo was afraid and Dix the musical in the same.

Yeah. Jenny and I went to Dix the Musical. We were going through a lot of personal stuff at the time that was really challenging with our families. And we went to the theater and saw Dixon musical. And I don't remember laughing as hard at a movie in the theater as I did at that movie. And it was such a gift of a movie. It is so insane. Yeah, yeah. And it really is insane. And the guys who made them movie, I mean, you really took a chance. chance on them because they hadn't, to my knowledge, made a feature film. Josh Sharp and Aaron Jackson, that came from UCB. Yeah, they came from UCB, and there was a whole, you know, sort of gay contingent of UCB, you know, Bowen Yang, Matt Rogers. Yeah. Was Julio Torres? He was just doing stand-up. But he might have been in this scene.

I don't know. Yeah. But, no, it was sent, and I was like... Well, I couldn't, I can't do this, you know. Because your character, just to give context, your character, I want to say, eats ham? No, this is, he has these creatures, he has these creatures extreme. He has these pets, okay. That are called the sewer boys that he obviously found in the sewer,

and he keeps them in a cage in his living room, and they eat deli meat. Right. And they're these strange, they're like, you know, they have tails, and they're these odd, sort of little dragon-like urchin they're creepy they're very creepy

but he loves them and he feeds they like deli meat and he feeds so you have to and he would feed them like bird baby like a mother bird

and so I would have to chew up the deli meat and spit it into their mouth that's what that was the much talked about scene anyway yeah so I was like

I don't know about this. And then they said Larry Charles was going to direct it. Yeah. And I loved Larry Charles. And so I had a Zoom with him. And then I said, look, I was still sort of on the fence. And I said, I need to meet these two young guys and just talk about this. And so we had this dinner that went on for like four hours.

And several cosmopolitans later, I said, well, I guess we're making a movie. Well, they were like, you know, the gay sons I never had. And they're brilliant guys. They're really smart and really funny. And, you know, as they always, I think it was Aaron always said, you know, we're not making this for people to upset people. We're not making it for people who won't like it. We're making it for the people who will like it.

Oh, that's an interesting way. want this is kind of outrageous and uh you know and they look i admire the audaciousness of this and especially well even more so now but at the time it was just you know when books are being banned and you know you don't say this don't say gay don't do that and and and i just thought and they don't care they just don't well they clearly don't they just don't think there is a line. And interestingly, I don't want to give away

where the story it goes, connecting back to the word fagg or faggot, you know, those folks, you know, it was used in that movie. Bowen Yang played God.

That's right. And they all sang a song we all sang a song. I had nothing to do with it. I was not involved. I was not involved at all. I was nowhere to be seen. We all sang.

It's so called all love is love. This is when the twins decide the only person, you know, they realize they love each other even more profoundly. Yes. Spoiler alert. And they get married.

And they all sing a song called God sings a song called All Love is Love. And at the end, he says, you know, God is saying, I'm everything, I'm black, I'm white, I'm this, I'm rich, I'm poor, you know, and I'm gay, I'm straight. And they said, you're gay, God is gay. So in the lyrics, As it goes, don't you want to see the movie now? In the lyrics,

we'll turn this into a cult film yet. They sing, all love is love, all love is love, God is a faggot, and all love is love. So they're sort of reclaiming the word faggagg. Right. And, you know, and I was, you know, and so I was like, oh, that's, because that word has always made me uncomfortable,

but having been called it. So I sort of got, what they were doing and I kind of then and by the fifth time they sang well God is a faggot I started laughing that's what it took it took five times sometimes it's just

repetition that can do it anyway they're I think they're brilliant and original and I just thought sure I want to be a part of this what do you it's like when you do angels in America

which is, you know, one of the greatest American plays. It's sort of an epic play. And then you do Dix the Musical, which is this completely irreverent, wild, you know, Beau is afraid, very experimental. Like, what do you see as the through line as an actor in all of those things? Is there a through line of being an actor in all those things?

Well, the through line is you're, you know, you are trying to be. truthful with it. So, you know, you're looking for the, you know, the humanity in it or the, you know, the, the heart of it at times. You know, I think there's, you know, it depends on what it is you're doing. You know, and Beau was afraid it was just, I liked that he was this suburban dad who, you know, said things like, what did he keep calling him? My brother. you know who thought he was being hip or he was sort of this corny dad and yet there's a moment in it that I really liked when I you know I'm trying to get Joaquin to say something

and you see there's something much darker at play just for a second you see that you know and you look for those kinds of you know with a character like that you're looking for that moment you know the darkness and the light or the humor in the sadness or tragedy. When you're in that scene where you say you see a glimpse

of the kind of darkness of the character, will you say to the director, hey, I'm just trying to catch my glimpse of darkness? Will you catch that in this one? No. No. I assume it's someone of the caliber of Ari Aster. Someone's going to catch it.

Who's actually who's written it. Right. Knows that that might be happening. Do you ever ask for any? another take for that though? I'll do as many, I love do a lot of takes. Do you ever ask for another?

Can I have another? You know, it's like, they always talk about De Niro is not that I'm comparing myself to him, but they heard the comparison. It was in there. Yeah. Oh, Bobby and I go way back.

So, but there was, you know, he like uses takes to warm up. Oh. So he'll do a lot. He likes to do a lot, apparently. You know, I, I've never done a film with him. But, um, uh, I think they're talking about meet the fuckers four. So there might be a role in that.

It might be finally. Okay. I'm, I'm game. Just to say I worked with him. Um, yeah, I think you, you know, there are people who like, this is it. They, they got two. You know, like, I don't know. I, I, I can remember interviews or Morgan Freeman saying, you know, if you need more than two takes,

then something's wrong or, you know, and I think, you know, and I think, Oh, I don't know about that. I see, but I come from the theater. I like to rehearse. Right. And so there's that part of me. But I understand from a film point of view, it's like, this is it. It's this is, and then you peak about maybe take three.

But I don't know. Then there's David Fincher who likes to do 57 takes. And no, Bombback, yeah, yeah. You know, that it goes on and on what you think you're losing your mind. And, you know, it's, oh, the. Oh, the old Billy Wilder saying to Tony Curtis and Jack Lemmon, you know, because Marilyn Monroe would, it would just to get one take where she said the right thing or did the right line or whatever it was he wanted.

He said to them, you have to be great in every take because whenever she gets it right, that's the one I'm going to use. That is? That's a lot of pressure. That's a lot of pressure. Yeah. Be funny. So you're in a new season.

series called Mid-Century Modern. It's on Hulu. It's just about to come out. How did you get involved with it? This is all Ryan Murphy, you know, became my guardian angel in my third act. And he called me and said, and just the fact that he called me was shocking. He called me and said, I want to send you a script. It's written by Max Muchnick and David Cohen, who created Will and Grace. He said, I've never done.

a multi-cam before, but he said, I read this script, and I just, I thought it was hilarious, and I loved it, and they've kind of written this character with you in mind. Then I read it, and it was hilarious. So I said, yeah, sure. I play a character named Bunny Schneiderman, who is a very, very wealthy, successful manufacturer of women's bras. Yeah. And he has a chain of stores across the country called the Bunny Hutch. Yeah.

And he lives in Palm Springs with his mother, Sybil. And there's a, it opens at a funeral, a very close friend of his and his other two friends, played by Matt Bomer and Nathan Lee Graham. And they come back to his house afterward and they're talking and they're having a great time. And he's sort of, he's, you know, obviously an older gentleman and kind of lonely at this point in his life. He's never had a great love in his life. And he says, why can't this be the rest of our lives? He lives in this big house.

And one is an airline. Matt plays an airline steward named Jerry. And Nathan Lee Graham plays a man named Arthur Broussard, who comes from the world of fashion. And Anna Wintour has just fired him being too opinionated. And so they eventually do and that's sort of where the series goes um and jimmy burrows the legendary jeremy burrows directed all 10 that's astonishing that's astonishing to me how it all happened very fast we did a pilot and then

almost immediately a few months later we were doing the the the first season just to put this in context for people jim jim burrows jimmy burrows is the same jim burrows yeah who did cheers co-created cheers directed a lot of i think he directed he directed he directed he directed all of Will and Grace, friends, pilot. I mean, just a legend of legends. He goes back to the Mary Tyler Moore show.

Yeah, he did Mary Tyler Moore. It's been the happiest experience I've had in television. And he said, do you believe we got this lucky again with this group of people? And he said, I just want to do this show for the rest of my life. And, you know, for someone like him,

you know, it's so moving and it's just been, the whole whole thing has been joyous. Oh. Matt and Nathan Lee. And then in the midst of all of this, Linda Laban, who was playing my mother, died. Mm.

Which was a shock and devastating. And she was, Linda was, you know, she was certainly a beloved figure in the theater. And we, I didn't, we weren't like close friends beforehand, but whenever I was, I was, just a fan and I would see her and we would always say I hope we get to work together some so this was very special and we became we became very close doing this and uh and and you know she had been diagnosed with lung cancer and so she had called me this was the day after Christmas

and we were supposed to go back in like a week or so um to finish filming and uh to tell me me this and and she said but they're going to start radiation they feel like it still work and I'll be tired but I'll be able to do and I said look it's whatever you need to do and you know it's just it's just a TV show your health is the most important thing but um you know we'll do whatever we can and don't worry about anything and and I was able just to say you know how much I loved her and then and then literally like three days later she wasn't she said to her her her husband she wasn't feeling right and um they called her doctor and he said come in and he that was there he's at cedars and so they were driving from malibu to cedars and um one of the tumors had was obstructing

her airways so she her breathing had become labored and so on the way there she's she said to him you know I want you to live your life and he said oh I am living my life she said you know I just want you to know if I die I want you know how much I love you and he said I know and I love you too and then her breathing was labored and she lowered the window

and her heart stopped and she died and and yeah i i miss her every day and it was she was such a huge part of it and and so brilliantly funny such a brilliant it seems like um in some ways the that series seems like such a perfect fit for all that you've been doing your whole career because you have the live studio audience and it's and it's film well my my my past in the multi-cam has been dicey to say the least. And so I've avoided it.

And now, you know, to do it with some of the best people who've ever done it, it's a very different experience. But, yeah, other than that, it has been just the best experience I've ever had in television and everybody gets along and everybody. But, you know, I think we all set out to do that, to make it a place where you feel good about what you're doing. Yeah. This is called the slow round.

Who is someone you're jealous of? Well, that's not fair. To ask someone in show business that? Well, let me get out my list. Who am I jealous of? You know, I'm not. I was a little jealous when I heard Lithgow

was good at, they've asked to play Dumbledore in the Harry Potter series of HBO. Yeah. That's a good gig. That's going to go for a while, no matter what. Even if it stinks, it's going to go. No.

You know, I'm at a point now i feel like i'm and people seem to have been concerned over the years about my happiness but i'm i'm sort of people have written articles about it anyway i i certainly the happiest i've ever been in my in my personal life and in my professional life and i'm you know i'm just very i feel very lucky and um the follow-up question is who were you jealous of that you thought when I asked the question but didn't say. No, you know, I'm, I can't, honestly, I can't, Devlin could probably tell you, he's probably heard me say,

I'll ask that one, mention a name. But I, you know, it's like, I don't really have that. Yeah. I mean, there are, there's a part of me that would like, I'm very happy where I am and what I've achieved. But there is a part of me that I wouldn't mind if I had got to have a little more of a career in film.

So I don't know. There's this sort of, I think there's this sort of general feeling of me being this, you know, whatever. General feeling. There's a general feeling that it's like, it's, you know, it's why they, in film, You're going to play somebody's agent. You know, get him.

You know, it's that. Or there's a, it has to do with some notion of me because I've had also a career in musical theater that I'm, it's big, it's mermanesque, it's whatever you want to call it. And, you know, that I think I've shifted that perception. Yeah, you've completely shifted because you've played over the last decade or so. The difference of the roles you've played in the last two decades. It's unbelievable.

I could. I could give you evidence, Your Honor. I could show you that there is a range, but I think people want to categorize you. They want to put you in a box, and they don't want you to get out of the box. Of course. But I was able to dig a hole in the corner of the box,

and I got out. Oh, I know. I saw. Now I'm in another box down the street. Well, I know. I'm still trying to figure that. of has your life gone the way you expected it to oh oh better better yeah things like you know you I have so many things that I you know you was more than you could have hoped for that just you know but

there was this strange I also had this strange for all of the fear I had this strange thing as a that I saw it as I somehow knew it was going to work out. Yeah, sure. There's also this part of me, this strange. I don't know if it's even confidence, but just sort of like I could see it like a movie. Right. And I would say to myself, well, this is now I'm in the beginning in the movie,

and it's, you know, and I'm a starving actor in New York. Sure. You know, I don't have any money. And I was once so hungry, I stole a. like a grapefruit from I went walk by a Korean market and just I had no food and I stole it like a grapefruit

and I'm not even particularly fond of grapefruit I guess it was just it was in reach you know anybody always thought yeah it's gonna work out yeah somehow I just know it's

gonna work out I don't know why I had that feeling but I did yeah and then and then I lucked out and it worked out. And that's the name of this show, working it out. Working it out.

Yeah. What's the best piece of advice someone's given you that you used? Elaine May's line is the safest thing you can do is take a risk. Yeah. You know. I think that's great. You know, just. The safest thing you can do is take a risk.

Yeah. I love that. All right. So I'm going to work out a couple of jokes. that are, I'm doing my performances of the Beacon Theater in a couple weeks. In a couple of weeks? Yeah.

Oh. At the last minute. Should I come? Oh, my God. I'd be honored. I'd be honored if you came. I, of course, if people don't know this, Nathan presented my first show off Broadway and sleepwalk with me.

And I view it as the inflection point of my entire life and career. Oh, well, look, it's all you. I just went along for the ride. I vividly remember us standing outside when I was living in Tribeca and think we had had dinner and you were like, you were a little annoyed by the fact that Merrill Streep was presenting someone off. Bridgetting Tunnel. Yeah, yeah. Off Broadway.

Yeah, Sarah Jones's show. How did she get Merrill Street to present her? And then we, well, you know, and then you said, you looked at me and it was like, like a marriage proposal. And you said, would you present me? And I went, well, I said, well, how much it's going to cost? You said, nothing. I said, sure, I'll present the hell out of you. Nothing of your version of my voice is like I'm a hustler.

Nothing. And the next thing I knew, I was presenting you. If I known it was going to be such a big hit, I would have put money into it. Yeah, but it's, but it was, I really do think of it as, like, a singular inflection point in my entire life. Well, it was just, it was just a great show is what it was, and it was your performance of it. And do you remember when we did The View together? Oh, I remember it.

And Joy Behar kept referring to you as Mike Berbilia, which was some fell somewhere between, like, you sounded like a celebrity chef or Italian porn star. Mike. And she kept saying, I would say, no, it's Barbiglia. She said, no, it should be Berbilia. Oh, God. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I remember that so well.

It was a huge moment for me because my mom got to come. And my mom loves the view, watches the view every day. Sure. And so she was in the audience. And Joy came over and talked to her. And she loves Joy. It's her favorite comedian. Sure.

And Joy said to my mom, what do you think about your son being a comedian? She goes, I don't know. I don't know what I think about it. Joey goes, oh, he's really good at it. And it was oddly, it was a turning point in my relationship with my mom and her understanding of my comedy career.

It was like a permission slip from Joy Behar to my mom saying it was okay for me to be a car. comedian. Wow. Joy Behar. Yeah. Had that kind of power. Yeah. Wow. Well, that's something. Yes. No, look, I was proud to be associated with it. It was such a great show. And then you, you know, it was a book. It was a board game.

It was a, then you made a movie. Made a movie. And then you did it in claymation. It was, it's unbelievable how much mileage you got out of sleepwalk with you. Well, here's what I'll say about. Yeah. But your wisdom in general about a lot of my projects over the years is when I made it into a film, you read the script and you said a thing that stuck with me and I brought up during the production and in the edit over and over again, which is, which is the, you basically said the risk of turning this into a movie is that it starts to feel like a boilerplate independent film, quote unquote, of this really special singular show. and you said you have to take the singularity from the show and figure out how to have it live in the film. And we did it eventually, but it was very, very hard. But we brought that up over and over and over again, citing you.

And I think it's true of all things. I actually think about that in everything I do. I think the inclination sometimes goes to the thing you were saying about advice of Elaine May is the safe, you know, the safest thing you're saying. can do is take a risk. It's the same idea, which is you shouldn't do what in your mind is the

independent film of the thing. You do what's sort of in your gut. Right. Or do something that's going to scare you. Do something that's going to scare you. You know, it's like, I don't know if I can do that, but that's always a good feeling. This is from, I just got back

from Una's winter break. The other night we're on vacation in Florida. And Jim was like, let's go out with Una and swim in the pool. And it was 8 o'clock at night. It was dark. And we go out. And Una's swimming underwater in its magical moment.

And then she swims into the pool wall and scrapes her head and bleak. She's okay. She's fine. But the first thing I thought was, I'm so glad it was Jen's idea to go in the pool. Because if it were my idea, if it were my idea, we'd be talking about this for 20 to 30 years. Since it's her idea, it's like the thing's going to heal and we'll never talk about it again. Oh, that's funny. Yeah.

It just happened this week, and I just shot it down in my notebook. Yeah. That's good. I just feel like, yeah. And then I wrote this. Oh, this is something I want to try to get on stage, which is so many of my friends have gotten divorced lately, which has been really hard on me because when people get divorced

then you have to go back to your own wife and husband and overcompensate and be like Jim's getting divorced which is what I would never do because I am resolute and firm in my conviction to be married I would never be divorced like Jim

who is a villain we shall never speak of Jim again this is a really half-faked idea whenever our friends get divorced we do a divorce autopsy like they got divorced because they couldn't agree on what it was they were arguing about

and we're not like that right come on team yeah it's half baked it's half baked it's just definitely like a free association what do you think when people talk about we have a like an open relation or an open marriage what do I think when people say that yeah I always think good luck

yeah to you in your life I'm always like no judgment good luck to you in your life I don't I don't I respect it. I don't fully buy it. And I'll tell you why.

As opposed to getting a divorce. They say, we decided to open up our marriage. I've heard that. I've heard that. Yeah. Because we are, you know, we're great as a couple, but we both would like to have sex outside the marriage. Look, I did a whole show about monogamy.

To some degree. My girlfriend's boyfriend was all about how I was never going to get married and here's why. Here's the seven reasons why and all this stuff. Because Jen and I went through a period where before we got married, we were like, oh, okay, we're not exclusive to each other and blah, blah, blah. And I'm just like, good luck with that. We did that.

It was a debacle. Every week was so much drama. Every week was like, who's that? What's that? What's that all about? Who's that? It's like, what are you fucking two lives? I don't know.

It just feels like that, again, no judgment. People listening. You know, everyone has to grow up. Just grow up and have an affair. Just cheat and do it well. I just feel like when Jen and I were in this phase of life where that's what we were going to do, we're like, it just did, it tactically, it required so much preparation, so much planning. So much clandest. And honestly, like, how do you do that without actually lying?

if you're with the person all the time. If you know that person well enough, you know they're fucking lying. You just know. You just know in your bones. You're getting angry and it hasn't even happened. Yeah. I'm riled up for comedic purposes.

Hey, I've made a living out of that. Yeah. The last thing we do is working out for a cause. If there's a nonprofit that you like to support, Yeah. We will contribute to them. We'll link to them in the show notes. Oh, okay.

Broadway cares, equity fights AIDS. It's a phenomenal organization. We will contribute to them. We'll link to them in the show notes. Oh, that's great. Thank you. You are one of the greats of the greats of the greats. And dare I say, I love you, and I treasure your friendship.

And I love you and I treasure your friendship, too. Working it out because it's not done. We're working it out because there's no... That's going to do it for another episode of Working It Out. You can watch Nathan Lane on the new series Mid-Centary Modern, coming soon on Hulu. I'm thrilled to watch that.

If you haven't seen them already, watch Dix the musical and Bo is Afraid. I love those movies. You can watch the full video of this episode of Working It Out on our YouTube channel at Mike Barbiglia. Check that out and subscribe. We are posting more and more videos.

Check out berbig.com and sign up for the mailing list. to be the first to know about all of my upcoming shows. We just added one in Halifax after all these years of people asking me to come to Halifax. I've never been there. And I'm on John Malaney's show there. He's doing a big, big show. And I think it's, I want to say it's me and Nick Kroll and Fred Armisen are the special guests on that one.

Our producers are working out of myself along with Peter Salomon, Joseph, Barbiglia, and Mabel Lewis, associate producer, Gary Simon, sound mixed by Ben Cruz, supervising engineer, Kate Balinski. Special thanks to Jack Hansenov and Bleachers. their music. Special thanks to my wife, the poet, J. Hope Stein, and as always, our daughter, Una, who built the original radio fort made of pillows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show, go over to Apple Podcasts and rate and review us. You know what's really nice is if you just write down, type in which episode you like best. We've done, at this point, almost 160 episodes. So if you say, hey, I really like the Cape Burlant episode or the Mateo Lane episode or the Ray Romano episode, people will go, oh, okay, that's a good place to start.

And if I'm being completely honest, the way people find out about the show is people like you telling your friends and telling your enemies. You know, tell Joaquin Phoenix. That guy needs to know. If you ever meet Joaquin Phoenix, you might not, but Nathan Lane did when he worked with him. You could say, hey, Joaquin, we don't know each other. I'm not going to tell you how to do your job as an actor, but I do think you should check out this podcast. It's called Working It Out. Mike Brubigley, it talks to other creative people like your co-star Nathan Lane and others. Maybe you can listen in between takes. Thanks, everybody. We're working it out. We'll see you next time.