Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out - The Working It Out Creativity Supercut

Episode Date: September 7, 2026

This week Mike presents a selection of some of the best bits of advice about creativity from some of his favorite episodes. Featuring:Lin-Manuel MirandaJenny SlateKC ShornimaJames AcasterIra GlassElizabeth GilbertJack AntonoffPete DocterBridget EverettJosh JohnsonStephen ColbertText BIRBIGS to 917-444-7150 for updatesFind Mike:Website: https://birbigs.com/Instagram: https://instagram.com/birbigs/Facebook: https://facebook.com/birbigfansTikTok: https://tiktok.com/@mikebirbigliaHosted and Produced by Mike BirbigliaProducers: Peter Salomone, Joseph Birbiglia, Mabel Lewis, Gary SimonsSound Mixed by Kate Bilinski, Shubh Saran, and Ben KruseSupervising Engineer: Kate BilinskiVideo Consultant: Graham WilloughbySpecial Thanks: Marissa Hurwitz, Josh Upfal, David Raphael, Nina Cwik, J. Hope Stein, OonaMusic: Jack Antonoff and Bleachers Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, everybody, it's Mike for Biglia. This is working it out. I am off filming my movie right now. It's my third movie. I'm so excited. So we're doing something a little different today. We get a lot of feedback about the podcast. Most of it's good. Some of it isn't good. But a lot of the positive feedback is about the talks about creativity. Advice about creativity, advice for pursuing creative goals, reflections on what it feels like. to not have those goals come to fruition. So we decided to put together an episode of some of the best discussions about that specific subject of creativity just through the years. And so this was Mabel's idea. Mabel Lewis is one of the producers on the podcast,

and she said, you know, I feel like if you put all this thing together it would be a great episode. And some of the guests today are Lynn Manmoa Miranda, Jenny Slate, Casey, Sharnima, James A. Caster, Ira Glass, Elizabeth Gilbert, Jack Antonoff, Pete, Dr. Bridget Everett, Josh Johnson, and Stephen Colbert, which is a lot of people.

We loved putting this together. We hope you love listening to it. I enjoy the Working It Out, Creativity, Supercutt. This is from Lynn and Will Miranda. The thing I've always admired about your work is you go big. You know what I mean? And this concept album, is a perfect example of that.

What's the thing in your life that encouraged you to go big? That's really interesting. My first instinct is I think if you're a product of the school play, you go big, because when you are, you know, I was a kid who figured out where I was

in the context of like the drama clubs at my school and you want to play with lots of parts. You want lots of parts for women because they auditioned to boys at like an 8 to 1 ratio. I remember every year trying to convince, like, friends of mine who were really good dancers,

like, don't do basketball this year. You can balance basketball with the musical if you want. And so I think a part of my brain is always just trying to make the best school play. Like lots of parts, lots for everyone to do. But I really think subconsciously that's it.

Like, I just want to make a really big school play. And it's funny in The Heights, which I started, like, the first draft I wrote my sophomore year at Wesleyan. And even then when it was like an extracurricular project, it was bigger than it had a right to be. Like, I had written a club scene and there's like 20 kids who were in it who were just in the night club scene. And they don't appear anywhere else in the musical. But I would have separate rehearsals because, like, they were in it, but they were just in the one. sequence, which is insane in retrospect. Like you're saying is like, but it's actually great for people who listen to this podcast

because there's tons of creators and a lot of the questions that we get have to do, from our listeners, have to do with like, how do you make a thing? And it's kind of this, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. You make a thing by making a thing. Yeah. If someone's listening to this today, it's like, what would be your advice for arriving? because I feel like you're like that as well, how do you arrive at that point where

if something's holding you back from unloading it all, what would be your tactic to get there? What would be your advice? Well, it's interesting because after I saw Rent, I wrote a bunch of 15-minute musicals that sounded like Rent. You know, like they're vaguely pop-rocky and they all just sound like, you know, Jonathan Larson D-Sides.

And I think what happens is you, form your taste. Yep. You chase the things that you like, and you're going to fall short. And then, like, if you chase enough different stuff, you'll end up sounding like yourself. Yes. I think that's... That's the whole thing.

Working it out, applause break. This next one is from Jenny Slate. You did a graduation speech. Is this true for one person? I did. How did that even happen? They asked me, and I said yes. They say it was one person?

Yeah, because it was, so Cutty Hunk Island is like the smallest, I believe, of the Elizabeth Islands, like the islands that are, you know, the famous ones, like Martha's Vineyard, where my parents live, Nantucket, and then there's all these, like, other little ones. And Cuddy Hunk is one of them, maybe not the smallest, but either way. and they had a one-room schoolhouse, and their very last student was graduating from it, and there weren't any more kids on the island. And, yeah, her name was Gwen, and I spent, like, an afternoon walking around with her, getting to know her.

Yeah. And then I gave a graduation speech just to her. What did it feel like? It felt exactly like giving a speech to a big class. Yeah. Except that like, because a lot of it is like, at least for me, and I think for many people, if you've like given a graduation speech before and weirdly I've done it like a couple times now, you've got to get past the like, who the fuck am I to be telling these kids what they should do?

Like I am really not the one, you know? And like I kind of resent having to do it. Yeah, for sure. But it's like, look, I don't, I'm not sure that I have this for you. Yeah. But then the other side of it is like this exciting thing that I felt the first time that I gave a graduation speech. And I felt it again, just like, it's so beautiful out there. Yeah.

And actually, I am the one to tell you about it because I feel it in a really specific way. And my advice to you is like find out what your receptors are for like feeling what you like about life. Like it's, you know, whatever. But I liked that I could tailor it to her and give her like specific compliments. Yeah. And that I could give her like a big, big send-off. That's really great wisdom. It was really fun.

Figure out what your receptors are. Yeah. Because actually once I did, my life got a lot easier. It's so crucial. Yeah. You've got to figure out what you enjoy. Yeah. Yeah.

I know, like, well, if you've seen anyone that is, let's say, like, unfortunately, like, really hampered, limited or maybe, like, sort of incarcerated by fame. They can't go to the grocery store and they want to, you know, like, everyone has different experiences with it. But, like, if you see something that you're like, oh, I actually don't want that, you know, like, or I don't want to play one role. I don't want to be Urkel or whatever. Like, I don't want to play one role forever. can't do anything else. Right. Those kinds of things.

Like, you can start to know like, oh, okay, I think I know what I want in terms of like that thing. But then there's another thing that happened like when we made Marcel the shell, which was like, I've been looking at something out of the side of my eye sort of assuming that it couldn't ever be in the center. And I've never looked at it hard enough to understand what it is. But like, I like helping people feel both like as if I. I just threw open a window.

So like a dose of freshness, but that they're comfortable, but without being, like, sappy about it. Like, I like nice, pretty stuff. Yeah. And I'm not, like, a Geico commercial. I'm not, like, sassy. I'm not, like, sarcastic, and I'm not dry.

Yeah. And, like, I like it in, like, remember 3-21 contact? Sure. On PBS. Like, when a flower blooms in fast motion, and it looks a little shaky. Like, I like that kind of stuff. Yeah.

I like that kind of stuff. And I'm supposed to be finding that. Like, in my daily life, I'm supposed to be finding it. And in my comedy, I'm supposed to be finding it. And it's not like a gross, like, mandate, you know, like a cult leader thing. It's more like, this is my appetite. It's totally consistent in my private life, my private moments. and in my larger, like, work.

And once I figured that out, I was like, oh, I don't have to try to be on, like, three and a half men. Yeah. I don't have to have that goal. I believe that show is called Two and a Half Men. Two and a Half Men. This next one is from Casey Sharnima. I was breaking down one of your jokes.

Speaking of Set a Punch, the joke is I'm in therapy. Anyone in therapy. It's been great. Going to therapy is great. I'm doing justice to your joke It was a great version of your joke I'm Asian and my parents asked me why I go to therapy

and I was like do you remember when I was a kid and you guys raised me? No, you were there I mean not emotionally and it's like such a great joke because it's like I always try to break apart

on the show like what jokes are and it's like set up something that's true and then punchline something that is somewhat true? Yeah. Or like a left turn that has some truth and some fiction, I would almost describe it as. But like that's, to me, that's like a really perfect, like economical joke,

which is, remember when I was a kid and you raised me? No, you were there. I mean, not emotionally. It's just like so brief. How did you teach yourself set up in punchline like as a structure? I think like because I was so scared of being on stage when I was like, to comment. Like, I was like, so scared that the economy of words comes from being like, when can I get to the punchline? You know, so it's like, you might be writing things in between that you could like spread out. Like, even now when I do this joke, I don't say I'm Asian because I'm like, that's actually like irrelevant to this joke. Yeah.

So like you just start editing so quickly because you just want to get to the punchline because that's when it feels safe on stage. Right. Totally. And so before that, you're just like. like the talking part feels so panicky to me. Yes. And like now I'm getting better at being that way, but that programming is already in me to be like, this doesn't need to be here.

We just need to get to the punchline in like the quickest way. I always, like whenever people do, we do Q&As on the show and people ask about like what can you do if you're starting out, I always say like get on stage, get on stage, get on stage, any way you can. Yeah. Like I remember when college, I hosted an Acapella.

festival and this like I would host anything because the exact thing you're saying once you get on stage essentially like what's this much text becomes this small yeah yeah it's so you're immediately like self-edit self-edit self-edit self-edit self-edit self-edit self-edit I got to the punchline yeah and it's kind of amazing yeah because the joke get better yeah because like when you're writing you're kind of like oh this is a good thought you know and it's like no one cares about your thought they're like here for a punchline so then you're on your on stage, you just cut it, you know. That is so true.

Yeah. No one cares about your thoughts. No one wants to hear this. No, that's exactly right. Tom Papa said that to me once. He goes, your brain edits out what's not as good. Yes. It's like you're on stage and you find yourself forgetting a section of the joke.

It's probably not great. Yes. And like, when you're writing, you're kind of like in your ego, sort of you're like, ooh, you know, this turn of phrase. And it's like, that's not going to get a laugh. Yeah, yeah. It's not, the crowd isn't going to like that. And you know that on stage. You know that because of the last thing you said, it gets a certain reaction and you're like, oh, so this next thing won't work. And it's crazy how faster brain works when you're on stage. This next vignette is from Jamie A. Castor.

Do you have a pre-show ritual? Yeah, a lot now, because I used to not at all, and it really, it was my downfall at a lot of gigs and it's why I'd throw a lot of gigs. So I was going on completely unprepared. So now it's quite extensive now. And yesterday I was very, very, very nervous before going on my show. Really wanted to just get on a plane and go home and not be here. And as in not be in New York, not not be alive. And I, so I had to do like everything that I would do before again. So I had to sit down and like just breathe and then notice five things in the room that I can see here, smell. feel all that.

How's your body feeling? Checking with your body. How are you really feeling with your body? How's that going to affect your show? Does that mean you've got to be ultra vigilant for this show about not throwing it away? Because like, you know, you're feeling quite negative already. And you're feeling all this.

So like that's going to affect it. So here's what you've got to bear in mind when you walk out there. And then visualizing the gig, not going how I want it to. and then like visualising how I would like to respond to that. So if it's really quiet, how do I want to perform? Oh, that's beautiful. And do that. And if they're shouting out, how do I want to perform?

And if they're on their phones, you know, to kind of go in, what do you want to do in that situation? So this is what you're going to do. And also remembering the things that I talked to my therapist about like what makes a good gig for me and like what factors. And I was like, so good audience, good venue. me performing well, me being disciplined on stage, and me trying something new at some point.

And we were like, okay, you can't control the audience, you can't control the venue. So those two things you just kind of accept before you go out. And then you just remember like, okay, what's the one new thing I'd like to try, even if it's just editing a bit, even if it's saying less words in a section. Let's do that.

And then for the rest of it, you're just focus on performing it the way you want to perform it and being disciplined enough to not go off script in a negative way. Definitely in a positive way, Greg. But like, let's be, let's not, you know, collapse it. I'm going to cut this into a clip for social media

and I am going to play it for myself before my own shows. I mean, that's the best pre-show ritual I've ever heard of. This next one is from Ira Glass. People ask me for writing advice a lot. and then I just say, Ira Glass says this. What have I ever said about? Like, okay. So what you've taught me is this idea of you tell a story

and you give a piece of plot and then you have a feeling about that plot and then you give a little more plot and you have a feeling about that plot and that's sort of the best way to tell a story. I like that I get credit for that since that's just basically the law of, I didn't, like, that's just like the law of stories. Who taught you?

Then who tie you? Well, me, trial and error. Like, there you go. Then you invented it. You're like Aristotle. You're basically Aristotle of the 90s. No. Like, it's funny, like, years ago, sometimes I tell this thing I'm about to tell you.

Sometimes I tell this on stage. But it's a true story. And like, years ago, when I was married to Anaheed, we lived across the street from the seminary on the west side. and every night I would take out our dog and there was this guy named Joe Durbis who was a seminarian and you see people every day

and he had a dog, I had a dog and you're talking and and you know like what do you do? And like at some point I was like well I kind of invented this way to do a radio show like where and it's like these stories and they're kind of funny but they're also like

feeling and basically the structure is like there's plot and then an idea and then plot and an idea on a pot and idea. And he's like, oh, yeah, yeah, that's what they teach us in there in the seminary. Yeah, that makes sense. I was like, what are you talking about? He's like, that's every sermon ever written.

And I was like, no, no, it's not. And he's like, oh, yeah, he's like, he's like, basically, if you think about a sermon, like you start with something that was in the news or in the congregation that week, and then you say, here's the meaning, you tell the story of that, and then here's what this means. And then you go to some story from the Bible that relates to it, and you tell that story, and then you say, here's the list on that one. You go to, it's basically like story idea, story idea, story idea, story.

And I was like, and I really was like, I was like, no, I invented this. Like, you know, and he's like, no, no. He actually at one point said, like, if you look at Jesus's sermons in the Bible, if you look at Jesus' sermons in the Bible, that's the structure of his sermons. Wow. And then I went to the New Testament and like, and sure enough, like when Jesus tells a story, like the parable of the prodigal son, you know, it's a little plot. And then he actually totally spells that.

And here's the meaning of this story, you know. And which means that I accidentally invented something that. that was like old at the time of Jesus, because I don't know about you. I don't think of Jesus as like a structure guy. I think of him as more of a content guy. Oh, that's so funny. Is that your closer?

Yeah. So the other thing that you kind of famously said about writing in general and being an artist is that when you're starting out, when you're 18 or 20, all you have is your taste. and you hopefully have good taste, but you can't possibly make the thing that you admire.

And if you work hard enough enough hours, hopefully what you're making ends up being as good as your taste. Right. And there's this gap when you're trying to make stuff and you know that it's not as good as stuff that's good, and then most people die in that gap, and they just stop creating work. And then you just have to,

soldier through it and just keep making work. It's the only way out. How can we continue this interview? What do you mean? You're just dying the gap. Most people die in the gap? Yeah. It's such a dark thought.

Most people die in the gap? Yeah, most people quit being a creative person. You know, like they give up the guitar. They like, you know, they stop making, you know, they stop writing screenplays. They give up their, you know, their free stand-up nights because they're like, it's just not going that great. And they're just like, okay, yeah,

they don't fight their way through it. You're absolutely right. It's true. Yeah, majority of people don't, don't, yeah, they can't bridge the gap. Yeah. Hey, everybody, it's Mike. I'm back. This next one is from Elizabeth Gilbert.

So you have all these great inspirational stories, and it's like about writing and opening yourself up to inspiration, all this kind of stuff. What about the person who writes every day, does the work, shows up, you know, 30 years in, 40 years in goes, people are just not finding this work. They're not connecting to this work. Like, it's one of those things where you go, like, well, you wrote a book about creativity, but you're from the perspective of someone who's wildly successful at creativity. Does it work for everybody?

I don't think anything works for everybody. True. Right? Like, I think that's the curiosity of the human, spiritual, and creative path. and I think the spiritual and creative path are the same thing, which is like, how am I going to get through this? And you have to borrow from so many different ideas and find your way and try things on.

You know, like nowhere would I say that Big Magic is a prescription for anybody. And I also would, in speaking to somebody who's been working for 30 years and hasn't had any success, I'd be pretty careful about being like humble, about being like, just stick with it. It's great.

Like if I'd had 30 years of writing with no success, I'm not sure that I would have wanted to stick with it. Yeah. You know, like, so I think I would just want to be respectful of the situation that they're in. And there has to be another reason to make art besides, like, I've written books no one's read. Yeah. You know, because they needed to write them. Yeah.

And, like, there's multiple strands of reasons that we create work, and not all of it is about the market. A lot of it is, but not. not all of it is. And I've also, like I wrote a book that was canceled like two years ago. I saw that. You know, like so, so I've had experience with, like before it was published, you know, like that I worked on for three years. Yeah.

Yeah. And there was something, I mean, that's a whole big story that I don't need to get into other than to say the same thing that got me through like seven years of rejection letters is the same thing that got me through the massive success of he pray love is the same thing that got me through a book being canceled is the same thing that gets me to my desk every morning. There's a through line that goes through all of that, which is, I really love doing this.

Right. And I really love this line in the Bhagavigita, 5,000-year-old wisdom that says, you're entitled to the labor, but you are not entitled to the fruit of the labor. And I feel like that's the wisest possible way to work. And that might not be very comforting to somebody who's like, I'd like some fruit for my labor.

You know? But is the labor, I don't know how you feel about this, but I've always felt to a certain extent the making of the thing is the best part. Yeah. And when my editor, like when we decided to pull the book, and she was very lovingly saying to me,

like, this is so tragic. Like you worked for three years on this book. It's a beautiful book. And I was, but I hadn't seen it. I was like, Sarah, if you knew how much I love, love doing this. Oh. Like if not one minute of that was wasted time, like the best memories I had of the previous

three years were sitting alone in a room writing that book. And I know from having written so many books, nothing that comes after is ever better than the moment when it's when you get it. Like when you're like, oh my God, it's happening. Like the whole thing is coming together. I see how this works now. Like no praise, no glory is ever better than that. It's, you know, like nothing.

That's the thing. That's the kind of, because then you're in that, that collaboration is happening and the current is flowing through you and you're meeting it with the heat. And you're right on the edge of this. I'm almost not gifted enough to do this, but somehow it's working and like, you know, the thing's running on itself and I'm not even driving it anymore. Like there's, I mean, I hope that I would keep doing that whether anybody ever saw it or not. This next one is from Jack Antonoff. Here's how I would describe the MSG show last year, and I'm sure that this year will be just as good if not better.

You do a thing with your band where you leave it on the floor. It's all there. You might as well be dead afterwards. I feel dead after. The very thing that gives me so much life is a thing that hurts me too, which is like I've never known how to, I have so many issues in life thoughts, feelings, OCDs, just stuff that distracts me from life.

Yeah. I bet you feel this way too. The second I get on stage or the second I get into the studio, but talk about live, the second I get on stage, I become in my head what I've always seen as like a free, normal person. Same.

I don't think about anything else. I'm so present. And I can't think about the next day, I can't think about the day before it. Yeah. You know, all my traumas and the songs, but that's kind of enough, but my spirit is very present. And to my own detriment sometimes, you know,

like I don't have the ability to pace myself. So just every night's the last night on earth. Yeah, yeah. That's exactly how I feel. Yeah, and that's why I do it so much. And I think that is to reduce something wild, I think that is the secret to life, which is that you can find that one thing

that makes you feel like you are not in a wide, old topsy-turby ride of the past and the future, you know, just dealing with everything and actually just makes you feel like you're standing on the ground. You have to do that thing. That's why, like, in some ways, that's what all great entertainment is. Or is this, are they going to be alive at the end of this? Metaphorically. Is this thing going to fly off the, yeah. The thing, the Houdini one is underwater. He's underwater and he's in chains. It's like, is he going to get out? but like isn't the Houdini thing everybody.

I feel like the National is like this. When I've seen the National live, you go like, are they going to be all right? Yeah. Is Mac going to be okay? I mean, it does, I grew up this way. Taylor's like that too, by the way. Definitely. I'm like, what the hell is this?

This is crazy. Completely. This is deathifying. If it doesn't get there for me, and it's not, and she does it, even like, Tom Waits does it when he's just sort of, of like hunched over the piano where like you're like is he going to eat this piano like it yeah i to me my favorite thing about any any live performance is the mix of like expertise and discomfort yeah um uh you know where it's like this i like watching people who are um and this kind of

how I feel when I'm up there too, where I'm, like, like, crawling out of my own fucking skin. I don't even know what I'm going to do next. And I also feel completely in control in a totally different way. Yeah. And it's like, it's like that. Like, the more I do it and the more I love it, I, like, have this control that lets me be more out of control. This next one is from Pete Doctor. What's your favorite kind of note to get from someone?

I loved it. Perfect. No, I mean, that's what you want, right? Yeah, of course. My favorite kind of notes. But it's weirdly not. Like, it's interesting. Like, I read, I'm forgetting the guy's name who wrote the book,

but he was one of the co-founders of Pixar who wrote that book, Creativity, Inc. Oh, Ed, yeah, Kelly. Yeah. And he has this really, I think, astute point that I feel like since I read the book, I've repeated like a hundred times, which is that when people think of Pixar, they think that there was, like, a formula that was created for making movies. and he's like, no, no, no, the opposite. Like, it's every movie is a series of problems and challenges.

And if it didn't have those challenges, it actually wouldn't be the movie you love. And I think that that's like a great way of looking at it. Right. And that's the same as people, right? If you didn't make these horrible mistakes in your life, you wouldn't be who you are today. Right. So, I mean, yeah, every movie, I'm laughing as you said, because we just had a post-mortem on the last movie and we do that almost every film on elio or the movie before that so we look at it and go like all right

what did we do on that movie that we never want to do again what do we do what do we do what do we do we learn and i keep thinking in the back of my head like it's always going to be broken there's always going to be problems yes i mean i guess the the wisdom is like let's learn from this so we don't make that mistake we can make new mistakes next time but it's it's oddly comforting to think of it that way. Yeah. It makes you not maybe want to hide under your desk. Yeah, I mean, I did have an idea that somewhere out there was the perfect director,

and that's what I wanted to become. And then at some point you realize, no, no, no, this, the person who loves director A hates director B and vice versa, someone else might hate director B and love director A because of the match, the creative match. You know, that's always a mess. Wait, so in other words, you were thinking, like, how do I become the person? I want to be the director that everybody loves, that does great movies, that knows how to speak with people.

And I don't think there's such a thing. I mean, working with actors, there's some actors who want to talk and analyze everything. There's some are like, don't say anything. I'm just going to do this. Right. I want to be instinctive, so everybody's different. How do you, I mean, we were figuring this out today. Gary was pointing out that, like, in a film, it's like hundreds of thousands of frames.

And it's like, how do you bring energy to that day after day after day, after year after year? Where's the spark? Yeah, right. And it literally is made one frame at a time. Yeah. A good animator can do like four seconds in a week. That's the speed at which we go. That's absurd.

I know. Four seconds in a week. And you have to wake up at seven in the morning and be like, I'm going to go to work today. Yeah. work on our section of the four seconds. It's absurd. And that's the animator. That's not counting the person who did all the sim, the cloth, or the background characters, or the lighting.

Right. Or the textures. So it's absurdly slow. This next one is from Bridget Everett. How does it feel for people to have that deep of a personal connection to your work? Well, that's a good question. You know, I'm in Midwestern, so it's hard for me to take it. But, you know, I am like the face on the poster, so I get stopped a lot about the show and also just about various things.

And every time I feel like I really try to listen to them. Because my gut instinct is to be like, yeah, right. Right. But I really, this whole show has been such a lesson in growth. And one of the major things is to try to see the things. in myself that other people see. Do you know what I mean? I'm not trying to be corny.

It's like a comedy podcast. I don't think that's corny. But I think it's important for me to value the show as much as they do. I do value it, but it's hard for me to appreciate them appreciating it. I don't know. That's right. What you're hitting on, I'm going to hover on. Okay.

Because it's so important. Hit and hover. I'm going to hit it. I'm going to hover on. on it. And the reason I'm going to hover on it. That's actually not a bad song. It's a idea. Don't tell Jack out. It's an office. This one's for me. We're going to hit it. We're going to hover on it. No, because it's so important. It has to do, and it has to do with art and it has to do with anything. Yeah. It has to do anything in your life having to do with your identity, your personality, who you are, and what your

relationship is to other people. Yeah. It's like when people have a connection to you in a certain specific way or see you in a certain specific way and they vocalize it to you it's like you sort of owe it to them and you sort of owe it to yourself to just acknowledge it yeah i agree with that but i think it's painfully difficult like i was at a dinner party the other night and um a birthday party and there and like my friend uh amy who's a tv writer um she was talking me about my showbiz people there. And like my friend, Amy, who's a TV writer, she was talking me about my show. And she's like, she's like, I want to make sure you're hearing this. Like the things I'm saying. Yes. The exact thing we're saying. And I was like, no, I am. I'm like, I'm just need you to, you know,

I'm going to walk away and then I'm going to and I'll just, you know, wipe a tear from my eye because it's, you know, it's valuable. But it's just, it's hard. If you're somebody who has struggled to believe in yourself, which is kind of odd if you've seen. my stage show because it looks like I have all the confidence in the world. But it's that, you know, I know everybody says like, I'm on stage and that's like sort of the, the, an exaggerated version of myself or something. But it's, it's really who I want to be. You know, I want to be that fearless.

I want to be that carefree. Yeah. And I also want to be somebody that just can meet the moment in that way. And like, and like, accept the love. Like when I'm in a room singing and to me, it's like a great first date. And if it's going really well, you can feel the electricity. Yeah. And I want to be able to accept the love.

You know, and I think that's a large part of like the bigger and the wilder that I've become on stage. It's all about learning to give of myself and learning to receive. Yeah. Should I leave? I'll leave. Okay. I think this is the end. I think this is the end.

No, that's. I just, you know, I hope I'm making any sense. We can edit this in post, right? Just cut out a lot. No, this is all beautiful. This is all beautiful. So here I go again. I can't even...

Go ahead. Well, what you're doing is you're saying something that's like wise and vulnerable and then immediately you're like, but we can cut this out, right? Yeah, right. And I'm probably beat red and I'm about to sweat and...

But we're going to hover on it. Yeah, we're hovering. We're going to hit it. We're hitting and hovering. And then we're going to hover. This next one is from Josh Johnson. Everything I do on YouTube is what I used to do to my mom.

Yeah, I mean, it's like That's how they invented YouTube Yeah, it was originally kind of excess And my sillover Spillover from your mom A hundred percent So then it would just be me going That's old Bermen's all early videos were all about

Yeah, yeah, I remember that No, I just I would I would just go on and on and on And then like I could also Before I ever really thought about Comedy in that way necessarily. making my mom laugh. But I would like, I would see where my mom, as, as, like, gracious as she is and was at the time

to this, like, little kid who could just go on and on forever, I would see the dip. I'd see where I started, like, bombing with my mom. I told my friends this before, they'd know of, like, sometimes I would be talking about my mom, and she'd be like, oh, yeah. And it's like, once you get one of those, it's like, all right, you got to, there needs to be a turn. You got to pick it up. You got to be surprised. Where's the twist?

Where's the punchline? Yeah. Yeah, you got to bring it home now. Once you get a... That's only a parent's love too. That's so good. You know? That's exactly right.

I mean, I think it's astonishing and like a great example for a lot of creatives listen to this show. And like I always say like there are things that you can make that in that years ago, 10 years ago would cost $10,000, $30,000. that now cost like $500 in terms of like camera technology and videoing things on iPhones and stuff like that like you're basically putting out

fully produced comedy specials every few weeks or so and they look as good as anything in my opinion. Sure, I mean I think it's also the I really believe in everyone's burden that's a creative to make the thing that's on their mind.

Yeah, yeah. And I think that I look at it as I've seen people who are incredible painters, incredible at whatever their art is, and they lose a little bit of their time with second-guessing themselves and trying to make it perfect or whatever. Right.

When you have to remember for people who don't draw at all, the drawing is amazing. Right. And maybe if you're doing it to try to impress people who draw like you and you're trying to be a bit sharper or like you're playing to the back of the room essentially, then yeah, I could see getting like a bidding your head to the point where you don't release.

But I just don't think in a world of noise, anybody is going to be particularly critical of like your chatter to the point that you shouldn't put it out there. I think that's very smart. This next one is from Stephen Colbert. My first person I studied in any improv with was Del Close. And a lot of people had a guru relationship to him. Yeah. Some people, not a lot, but some people did. I never did.

I might not have, like, deserved it. But I also don't get guru with people. You know what I mean? You don't need to take to mentors that way? No, I probably, when I was younger, I was too emotionally distant to actually allow myself to join the cult. You know what I mean? And also too much of a skeptic to get involved in the cult, even though some part of myself, the part whose father died when he was young was like,

you be my daddy. It was, I'm sure, in there. But I never acting on it. That's a weird aside to say, or rather a fitting aside, to say, he used to say you're not improvising. You're just letting the universe channel through you if you just open up all your senses. That's it. Your job is to open up all the stops on the organ.

That's it. And so it can just flow through you. And he would take out his little pentagram and put it on his chest before he performed because he said the stage was a sacred space. And it is. I mean, showstoppers.

Stephen Colbert throwing showstop and pitches all day. Working it out because it's not done. Working it out. That's going to do it for another episode of working it out. We're going to link to each individual episode that was featured today in the show notes.

Ooh, I love that. Check up for bigs.com. sign up for the mailing list to be the first to know about my upcoming shows. Our producers are working out of myself, along with Peter Salomon, Joseph Rabiglia, Gary Simons, and Mabel Lewis, who conceived of this episode today? Sound mixed by Shub Sarin and Ben Cruz, supervising engineer Kate Balinski. Special thanks to Jack Antonov and bleachers for their music. Special thanks to my wife, the poet J. Hobbes Tyne.

And our daughter, Una, who built the original radio fort made of fellows. Thanks most of all to you who are listening. If you enjoy the show, and please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. Tell your friends, tell your enemies, tell your friend who wants to do something creative, but can't seem to keep going. Just say, hey, I know it's rough to pursue this kind of work, whether it's professionally or even just a hobby, but I believe in you. And if you need inspiration, check out the Working It Out podcast.

That's where Mike Burbighlia talks to comedians, writers, filmmakers, all about the creative process. Who knows it may inspire you to take a step towards your own creative goals. Or maybe it'll just make you smile. Ah, you thought it was going to be some kind of joke, right? as though there's a joke at the end of every episode. Well, sometimes there isn't. Thanks, everybody.

We're working it out. See you next time.