Mind of a Serial Killer - MURDEROUS MINDS: Jodi Arias Pt. 1

Episode Date: August 4, 2025

Most people can move on after heartbreak—but Jodi Arias wasn’t most people. On this episode, we delve deep into Jodi’s trouble childhood, complicated relationships, obsessive behaviors, and the psychological red flags that led to her infamous claim: "If I can't have you, no one can." Killer Minds is a Crime House Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. For ad-free listening and early access to episodes, subscribe to Crime House+ on Apple Podcasts. Don’t miss out on all things Killer Minds! Instagram: @killerminds | @Crimehouse TikTok: @Crimehouse Facebook: @crimehousestudios X: @crimehousemedia YouTube: @crimehousestudios To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, it's Kailyn Moore. Crime House is home to the most gripping true crime shows, and I would love for you to check out my show that I co-host with Morgan Apsher, Clues. Want to sneak past the crime scene tape to explore the key evidence behind some of the most gripping true crime cases? Well, each week on Clues, we open up a new case file and dig into the key evidence that either solved or left authorities baffled behind the most infamous criminal cases. Join us every Wednesday and listen to clues on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Crime House. Most of us are familiar with this classic journey, the quest for true love. Whether or not you've experienced it yourself, we've all grown up hearing stories about knights fighting monsters for princesses, or two vastly different people battling their own demons before ending up together. Whatever the package, the message is the same.

Finding the person you love is a dream come true. But not every love story has a happy ending, especially not in real life. Feelings fade and people change, and when that happens, most of us learn to let go, even when it hurts. But for Jodie Arias, letting go wasn't an option. For her, it was all or nothing. And when the love of her life decided to end things, Jodie decided, if I can't have you, no one can. The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love, and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is Killer Minds, a Crime House original.

I'm Vanessa Richardson. And I'm Dr. Tristan Engels. Every Monday and Thursday, we uncover the darkest minds in history, analyzing what makes a killer. Crime House is made possible by you. Please rate, review, and follow Killer Minds makes a killer. contains descriptions of violence and explicit sexual details. Listener discretion is advised. Today, we begin our deep dive on Jodie Arias, a young woman who immersed herself

in intense relationships throughout her young adulthood, often losing herself in the process. Her growing obsessions led her down an increasingly dark path, one that led to murder. As Vanessa goes through the story, I'll be talking about things like how a desire for control can be shaped by early experiences, the role of codependency and manipulation in creating toxic relationships, and how jealousy and possessiveness can evolve into a violent obsession. And as always, we'll be asking the question,

What makes a killer? In a stark difference to the chaos of her adult years, Jodi Arias was seemingly born into a stable and uneventful life. She came into the world in July 1980 in Salinas, California, a working-class agricultural city known for its farmlands. By all accounts, Jodie's upbringing was perfectly fine. She had four siblings, her parents were together, and she even had grandparents living nearby. She was secure enough where she could pursue artistic interests as a child, like

photography. But over the course of Jodie's childhood, a more defiant side of her emerged. From a young age, she seemed to struggle with impulse control, to the point where one babysitter reportedly called her an exceptionally aggressive kid. For instance, when she was six, Jodie hit her younger brother Carl over the head with a baseball bat., when she was six, Jodie hit her younger brother, Carl, over the head with a baseball bat. And as she got older, that aggression led to outright rebellion. In middle school, she grew marijuana on the roof of her house using Tupperware containers and makeshift planters. It wasn't long before the police caught on and put an end to it.

But Jodie didn't get in any legal trouble. Instead, the officers left Jodie's punishment up to her parents. They didn't know what to do with her though, possibly because around this time, Jodie started becoming very dishonest and secretive to the point where she hardly spoke to her mom and dad. She seemed to resent being dependent on them and having to abide by their rules. As far as her parents were concerned, Jodie's silence was likely preferable to the alternative.

Because when Jodie wasn't ignoring her family, she was abusing them, verbally and physically. In one instance, she even punched her mother. But at school, Jodie's classmates saw a completely different side of her. One of Jodie's friends described her as a good girl with no outward signs of behavioral problems. It seemed like there were two versions of Jodie. She was sweet and soft-spoken in public, but in private she was impulsive and volatile. So you know when I hear that a child or a teenager is acting like two completely different people

depending on where they are, like this, the first thing that comes to mind for me is behavioral theories, especially concepts like conditioning, reinforcement, and something called behavioral contrast. So let me break that down. If a kid is on their best behavior in one environment, like school,

I start wondering, what's reinforcing that good behavior. Maybe the teachers and the classmates are giving them praise or positive attention when they play the quote good role. That kind of attention can be a powerful reinforcer, even if it's subtle. But then if that same kid comes home and starts acting out, yelling, slamming doors, refusing to follow the rules, I have to also ask, what's happening then at home when they do that? Because even negative attention, like getting yelled at or punished, can reinforce the behavior if that's the only time they're feeling seen or

heard in that environment. That's where behavioral contrast comes in. If they notice that being good gets some attention at school but not at home, then acting out does get a reaction at home, even if it's a frustrated or angry reaction. Well guess what behavior they're going to keep repeating in that environment. It's going to be the one that gets a response. This isn't about blaming parents or schools or teachers. It's just about understanding how behavior can be shaped by the environment and that contrast between the two, it's telling us something important.

Was this kind of behavior a precursor to mental illness? So in general, I would just say it's not necessarily that. Because behavior, like I mentioned, is a communication tool for kids and teens. And they are incredibly responsive to the environments that they're in. And behavioral contrasts like this one you described can simply just be a reflection of inconsistent reinforcement patterns. However, if the contrast is

extreme, persistent, or starts to escalate, we look more closely. We'll look at other possible environmental triggers. For example, is there some kind of abuse or neglect occurring in the home that would explain this kind of behavior? Jodi hitting her brother with a baseball bat, that's not something children just do. Typically, it's something they're modeling. So is there abuse or is there neglect occurring in any of their environments,

not necessarily at home? And then we start to screen for mood disorders, anxiety disorders, impulse control disorders, and trauma. Even with all of this going on, Jodi eventually met a kindred spirit. In 1995, when she was a freshman in high school, she met 18-year-old Bobby Juarez while attending a local carnival with some friends.

It was the dead of summer, but Bobby was wearing a full black suit and a high collared white shirt. His long, curly dark hair only added to the classic aesthetic he had going on. However, despite his put-together appearance, Bobby wasn't exactly the most motivated person. He'd just graduated high school, but instead of going to college or getting a 9-5, he spent most of his time playing video games and kind of drifting through life. Jodie didn't seem to care about any of that. She appeared to be smitten by Bobby's older-guy wisdom and seductive style.

After they met, they spent the next few months talking on the phone regularly. On New Year's Day in 1996, Bobby and Jodie officially became boyfriend and girlfriend. It was her first real relationship, and it was full of ups and downs. In the early stages, Jodie broke things off after Bobby said he wanted to move to San Francisco with her to hunt vampires. But soon enough, she gave him another chance. And this time, Jodie was determined to make it work. School wasn't doing much for her, so at 17 years old, she decided to drop out and move in with 20-year-old Bobby. Her parents were horrified, but Jodie didn't care.

The two happily bounced around from place to place before landing in Oregon later that year in 1998. Even though the two had to get a roommate, a man named Matt McCartney, Jodie finally had the newfound independence from her parents she'd been craving. But she also had bills to pay now, so Jodie took on a full-time job at a Denny's restaurant. She worked long hours to financially support the household since neither Bobby nor Matt had steady jobs. When we talk about self-harm and self-sabotage, especially in teenagers or young adults,

often we picture physical behaviors, like cutting, for example. But self-harm can also be self-sabotage, and the maladaptive coping behaviors like risky or destructive life choices can serve similar psychological purposes. So even if Jodi wasn't engaging in non-suicidal self-injury in the traditional sense, the one that we're familiar with,

her risk-seeking and life-sabotaging behavior may still fall within a broader framework of self-harm, especially if it's motivated by internal distress. And what's really interesting here is that from what we know, at the very least, there's not been any evidence that this was modeled by her parents. And if that's the case, then these weren't learned behaviors. They were chosen behaviors, which tells us something deeper might have been going on. She was potentially rebelling against stability and safety. Her behavior is

risk-seeking, and sometimes that's about chasing a high, but sometimes it's also about feeling anything at all. For teens who are emotionally numb, overwhelmed, or carrying some unspoken trauma, danger can actually feel like relief. It creates a sense of intensity that can be strangely soothing. And every risky choice that she's made, it didn't just cause immediate consequences. It trapped her a little more each time, socially, legally, financially, and that's how this kind of behavior becomes a cycle. Chaos feels familiar, maybe even comforting, but it also pulls them further and further away from any chance of stability.

Does this kind of behavior fit a psychological profile? Yes, this kind of behavior can absolutely fit within certain psychological profiles, though it's important to remember that it's not always pathological. A lot of teens make risky choices. They don't have a fully developed frontal lobe and they lack judgment and reasoning. So to some degree, it can be normal growing pains. That said, when a pattern like Jody's emerges with chronic risk taking, self-sabotage, unstable relationships and emotional volatility, it can be concerning for impulse control disorders,

personality disorders, trauma and mood disorders. While Jodi had definitely put herself into a bad situation, and it didn't take long for things to go sideways, the apartment she shared with Bobby and Matt was small, and it didn't take long for things to go sideways. The apartment she shared with Bobby and Matt was small, and pretty soon the lack of space led to tension and violence. Bobby had a temper, and according to Jodie, he abused her multiple times, going as far as choking her and even breaking her finger. Despite the abuse, Jodie stayed in the relationship and kept providing for everyone. But at some point she started to feel resentful.

After all, she was the one working to keep the lights on while Bobby spent his days at home free to do whatever he wanted. And it bothered her that she didn't know what he was doing. This thought gnawed at her, and soon she started getting paranoid. She didn't like that she couldn't keep tabs on Bobby every second of the day, and convinced herself that he was cheating on her. By August of 1998, 18-year-old Jodie finally acted on her instincts and logged into Bobby's email account. What she found confirmed her worst fears. Bobby had been exchanging flirty messages

with another woman. Heartbroken, Jodie ended the relationship. But within just a few months, someone else caught Jodie's attention, her other roommate, Matt McCartney. But Jodie didn't immediately approach Matt about a relationship. Instead, she took a different route.

She focused on his family. They lived elsewhere in Oregon, and Jodie had met them before. To them, she presented her image of a sweet, soft-spoken young woman. And when she and Bobby broke up, they let Jodie move in with them while she searched for work and tried to rebuild her life. By January 1999, she'd not only become deeply involved with the McCartney family, bonding with Matt's sister and helping care for her kids, but she'd also started a casual sexual relationship with Matt. This cycle would become routine for Jodie, jumping quickly into new relationships post-breakup rather than risk being alone. A year later, Jodie and Matt were officially an item. The couple bounced between California, Oregon, and Colorado

over the next year and a half as they pursued work opportunities. Even with the changing scenery and multiple new jobs, their relationship seemed stable and Jodie was all in. By this point, she'd started to become interested in some of Matt's spiritual beliefs, which included things like Buddhism and Wicca. So not only were they deepening their relationship, Jodie seemed to be transforming herself into Matt's ideal partner. It was possibly during this time that she began to bleach her hair blonde, which she would do for many years.

In May 2001, Matt took a seasonal job in Crater Lake, Oregon. That summer, he worked and lived at the National Park there, while Jodie lived 70 miles away so she could work in an Applebee's. Things were going well until the end of the summer when one of Jodie's co-workers told her they'd heard a rumor that Matt was cheating on her. As soon as she heard this, Jodie drove to Crater Lake to confront him. When she arrived, Matt admitted to the affair, but claimed it was purely emotional and they hadn't slept together. Still, it was enough for Jodie to break up with him. Following her split from Matt, Jodie moved between states and relationships until 2002, when she met a man named Darryl Brewer while she was working at a spa in Big Sur, California.

Darryl was Jodie's boss, and their relationship felt different from her previous ones. This was possibly because Darryl was 42 when it began, a full two decades older than 22-year-old Jodie. Despite the age gap, Jodie was the mature, stable presence in the relationship. She even acted as a pseudo parent to Darryl's young son. When you look at Jodie's relationship history, there appears to be signs of codependency.

That's when someone's sense of self becomes overly reliant on the needs, emotions, or validation of another person. She doesn't just date someone, she becomes who she thinks they want. With Bobby, she mirrored his rebellious edge. With Matt, she got swept up in his spirituality. And with Daryl, who was much older and already a father, she stepped into this pseudo stepmom role almost instantly, taking on a maturity and a domestic role that hasn't been there before. And that kind of chameleon behavior where someone repeatedly reshapes their identity around a partner is often a sign of an unstable or underdeveloped self-concept or identity

fragmentation. It's also worth mentioning that in codependent relationships, there's often a trade-off. Jodie may have provided stability for Daryl, but in doing so, she once again lost sight of herself. And that's the tragedy of this pattern, because it looks like love and it's often fear in disguise. Fear of abandonment, fear of worthlessness, fear of being alone with no clear sense of who you are when you're alone. Okay, how can we distinguish between someone like Jodie, who quickly moves from one relationship to another,

and any other ordinary person with a similar behavior who isn't capable of violence? What jumps out as different when it comes to Jodie? So you know, people do. They bounce from relationship to relationship often, especially in their 20s. It's not inherently pathological. Sometimes it's just searching, sometimes it's loneliness, often it's just being human, we're wired for connection. But in Jodi's case, there are risk markers that make her pattern stand out.

First, it's not just the rapid succession of her relationships that's alarming, it's the way she loses herself in them. What she does in relationships is far more than compromise. It's fusing her identity. When someone ties their entire identity to another person, when that relationship is threatened, the reaction is often markedly disproportionate. The second thing that jumps out is the shift from dependency to obsession. Jodie clings and she manipulates, and that's not typical.

It's a sign of pathological attachment, where the end of a relationship feels like an ego death, and she will seek to regain control again. At this point, she's doing that by replacing them immediately with someone else and immediately taking on a new role and identity. That raises concerns regarding what her behavioral pattern would be if she didn't have a replacement ready. How would that manifest? It also indicates that she likely is intolerant of humiliation and rejection, and that's where she's likely at her riskiest for violence.

Whatever was motivating Jodi's behavior, the relationship seemed to be working. She and Darryl spent the next three years building a life together until they bought a house in Palm Desert, California in 2005. The next year, Jodie started a new job at a company called Prepaid Legal, a subscription-style legal insurance company offering access to lawyers whenever you need it. She thought it would be an opportunity to finally gain financial stability. But in reality, it operated like a multi-level marketing scheme, where getting to the top was much more difficult than advertised.

That September, Jodi traveled to Las Vegas, Nevada for a prepaid legal services company conference. She was still an independent contractor for the company at the time and had aspirations of moving up. So she was in Las Vegas to network and learn. But she wound up making a different kind of connection, one that would change the entire course of her life, and, and someone else's. In February 2006, 25-year-old Jodi Arias took a job at a company called Prepaid Legal. That September, she headed to Las Vegas for a company conference.

While she was there, Jodi met a 29-year-old man named Travis Alexander. Travis was a highly successful, charismatic motivational speaker and recruiter at prepaid legal. When the two struck up a conversation, it was clear to both of them that their chemistry was electric. Travis ended up inviting her to a company dinner that night, and after the event, they stayed up talking till morning. By the next day, Travis was already telling friends he thought he'd met his future wife. Here's what he wrote about Jodie at the time. I went from intrigued by her, to interested in her, to caring about her deeply, to realizing

how lucky I would be to have her as part of my life forever. Travis was from Riverside, California, and like Jody, he came from a big family. He was one of seven kids. But unlike Jody, Travis was not raised in a good environment. His parents struggled with drug abuse, and he often experienced neglect and instability because of it. When Travis was eight years old, he moved in with his paternal grandparents, who were Mormons and members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, also known as LDS. As a result,

religion became a central part of his identity, and he remained very active in the LDS church. Travis used that faith to find some structure in his life, and eventually found success in his role with prepaid legal. He had no idea that after he met Jodie, it was all about to unravel. For the moment, though, they went their separate ways. Once the conference ended, Travis went back to his home in Mesa, Arizona, while Jodie returned to Palm Desert, California, where she was still living with her boyfriend, Darryl Brewer. But Jodie was coming back a changed woman.

After the conference in Las Vegas, she kept in touch with Travis and became obsessed with religion, specifically, Travis's religion. So we've seen this before. We know that Jodie has a pattern of not just adapting to a partner, but strategically aligning herself with the things that matter most to them. She knows how to build trust by becoming the idealized version of what someone is looking for. And it's not just romantic, it's relational.

When she was interested in Matt, she didn't go straight for him, she got close to his family first. She built a social foundation that made it harder to detach from her, and that's long game manipulation. With Travis, her interest in Mormonism may have been genuine on some level, but it also served a purpose. It gave her access and credibility. It made her seem like someone who fit into his life,

someone who shared his values, someone he could bring home to his community. And that illusion of alignment can be attractive. This is a psychological tactic we sometimes call mirroring with intent, when someone doesn't just reflect back what you like, but uses it to create emotional dependency. And when it's someone like Jodi, whose core identity is unstable and whose fear of abandonment runs deep, these aren't just dating strategies, they're survival tactics. I think Travis was attracted to Jodie

in a similar way that Darryl was. They both offered in very different ways a perceived buffer against abandonment. Darryl's older age, parental status, and established life may have created a sense of emotional safety for Jodie as she may have interpreted these factors as reliability and lower risk of rejection or infidelity, particularly if she positioned herself as essential

or irreplaceable in his life, which she did, by playing the pseudo stepmom. Similarly, Travis's affiliation with the LDS church may have offered a kind of moral safeguard in Jodie's eyes, given the church's strict teachings around chastity and fidelity. It's plausible, at least initially, that Jodie viewed his religious commitments as protective, believing maybe he'd be less likely to engage in extramarital sex or pursue other romantic

interests and more likely to marry her, to continue having sex with her, which would be the ultimate commitment and buffer for abandonment. But in both cases, the underlying psychological drive appears to be an attempt to mitigate perceived threats of abandonment or betrayal by aligning herself with partners who, through age, life stage, or religious values, seemed less likely to hurt or leave her. This suggests a relational strategy rooted more in fear regulation than in authentic security. Well, just a few weeks after meeting Travis, Jodie had fully immersed herself into Mormonism. She read church literature, attended LDS meetings, and even abstained from sex, since Mormonism

forbids sex before marriage. To her boyfriend, Daryl, it felt like Jodie had become an entirely new person overnight. Within a couple months, Jodie had officially converted to Mormonism, and Travis was the one who baptized her. For Jodie, it was a fresh chapter, a commitment to purity, to God, and to a future that, in her mind, likely included Travis. But it was also the end of something, her relationship with Daryl. Shortly after she converted, Jodie left him, and her old life, behind. In February 2007, Travis and Jodie were officially in a long-distance relationship.

Travis was still in Mesa, and Jodie had moved in with her grandparents in Wyricka, California. But the couple met up frequently and spent time traveling the country together on work trips and vacations. On the surface, they seemed like a happy couple and an active part of the Mormon community. But behind closed doors, they weren't following some of the Church's teachings. Despite the religion's restrictions around sex, Travis and Jodi's relationship turned physical. Even though Jodie embraced her new faith outwardly, it didn't erase her past, and it certainly

didn't diminish her sexuality. She even brought her childhood love of photography into the mix and the two often took photos before and during intercourse. Travis wasn't the perfect Mormon, he'd had sex before, but doing it this regularly was starting to weigh on him. That didn't change how he felt about Jodie, though. They kept getting more serious, and eventually, he introduced her to his friends. From the start, those friends got a strange feeling about Jodie. They noticed she was always glued to Travis' side and would literally cling to him in public.

Sometimes she even straddled him in front of everyone and shot evil looks at any woman who so much as looked his way. It didn't take long for Travis's inner circle to voice their concerns. His friends sat him down and begged him to take a step back. One of them even told Travis, I'm scared I'm going to find you chopped up in this girl's freezer. Travis took their advice seriously.

As much as he cared about Jodie, it was starting to get to be too much for him. Jodie must have sensed this shift because she continued using sex to keep the relationship alive. Jodi is showing signs of pretty intense abandonment anxiety with the clingy behavior in public, that territorial aggression toward other women, and just over the top physical displays like that. These aren't just boundary issues. They can be warning signs of a person who will do anything to keep that connection intact. Now let's talk about sex as currency.

As soon as Jodie senses that Travis is pulling away, she doubles down on sex, not as a mutual expression of connection or desire, but seemingly as a tool. It seems as if she's using this to maintain closeness, control, and relevance in the relationship. This is really common in individuals with unstable attachment styles.

When the fear of abandonment becomes overwhelming, the person may weaponize whatever form of closeness they think will quote, buy them safety. And for Jodie, it seems that sex became that currency. But here's the thing, this kind of dynamic is damaging to both people. For Jodie, it reinforces a tragic core belief that her worth is tied to what she can offer, not who she is. That deepens the identity fragmentation and makes her even

more desperate the next time she feels rejected. And for Travis, it creates a situation where he feels guilty, trapped, and even manipulated. Even if he cares about her, he starts feeling like his autonomy and his faith are being challenged. And that's a huge emotional burden. It can lead to feelings of resentment and burnout and sadly, danger. And his friends are picking up on this emotional volatility, her intensity, and the potential for escalation. And Jodie was displaying that in real time.

Why does she seem to need total control over Travis like that? I think and obviously I've never met Jodie, I've never evaluated her, but from what we know, I think it's for emotional survival, more likely than not. Because for someone like Jodie, whose sense of self is unstable, a romantic partner becomes her emotional anchor. Without that connection, she risks feeling lost,

empty, worthless, even invisible. So when Travis starts to pull away, or if he starts to pull away, emotionally or physically, it's going to threaten her entire identity. So control becomes her way of managing that. And possession is often the outcome. And the tragic part is that the more she tries to control Travis, the more suffocated he's gonna feel,

and the closer she gets to losing him. And for someone like Jodie, that's where things become dangerous. Well, by June 2007, Jodie and Travis had only been dating for a few months, but their relationship was already on the rocks. And Jodie knew it. She could feel Travis slipping away

and becoming progressively more paranoid. She started going through his emails and phone, possibly trying to determine if he was thinking about leaving her. Travis caught her doing this on multiple occasions and finally decided he'd had enough. After about five months of dating, he ended things. But Jodie wasn't ready to let Travis go. In her mind, she was the right girl for him. Sexy, spiritual, and willing to do anything to make it work. And while most people would nurse their broken heart and move on, Jodie did the opposite. Shortly after being dumped, she packed up her car

and moved to Mesa, Arizona, the same city where Travis lived. Usually a move is a fresh start, but for Travis Alexander, it was the beginning of the end. In January of 2008, real estate agent Lindsay Buziak received a call from a woman who said that she and her husband were urgently seeking a home with a budget of $1 million. Eager for the commission a deal like this would bring, Lindsay found the perfect home and set up a showing. Just one hour after the showing, Lucy X colleagues found her

lying in a pool of blood in the master bedroom with multiple stab wounds. To this day, the case remains unsolved. I'm Savannah Breimer, host of the True Crime podcast, Killer Instinct, the research-backed show that covers cases like Lindsay's and aims to bring justice to the families of victims of horrific crimes. Each month, I explore a new sector of true crime, from serial killers to stalkers to female killers. For each case, I break down the moments leading up to the crime,

debunk past theories, and share the experiences of those affected by these tragedies. Join me every Wednesday as I unveil the truth behind some of the darkest cases in history. Listen and subscribe to Killer Instinct wherever you get your podcasts. When Jodi Arias told her friends she was moving to Mesa, Arizona in the summer of 2007, they were stunned. They thought the relationship between her and Travis Alexander was over, so it didn't make sense for Jodie to move closer to him. But to the 27-year-old, it made perfect sense.

After all, she had completely changed her identity for Travis and molded herself into a devout Mormon. So to Jodie, the breakup just meant she needed to try harder. When Jodie got to Mesa, she reached out to Travis regularly and would often enter his home unannounced since she knew the passcode to his garage. And if she couldn't get into the garage, she let herself in through his doggy door. Travis was frustrated with Jodie's antics, but he was also still attracted to her. If he came home to find Jodie had snuck into his house, he would either tell her to leave or sleep with her. And

each time they had sex, it reinforced Jodie's belief that Travis still had feelings for her. Let's first talk about her behavior because it does qualify as stalking and life invasion. And from Jodie's perspective, it's persistence. In her mind, she's fighting for love. And because Travis doesn't shut it down completely, her obsession just deepens. And every time he gives in to her, like you mentioned, whether it's by having sex with her or simply not making her leave immediately, she's interpreting that as confirmation that he still wants her. So now let's talk about Travis.

He's clearly overwhelmed. He knows something's off. His friends are warning him. He's frustrated. He's setting some boundaries, but they're inconsistent. And we already talked about reinforcement and behavioral contrast. And this already talked about reinforcement and behavioral contrast. And this is where things get really psychologically complicated, because every time

he allows the interaction to continue, especially if it becomes sexual, it undermines the boundary he tried to set and reinforces her, just like you said. And to be clear, this is not his fault. But it does show how hard it can be to navigate situations where someone is both dangerous and desirable. There could be gender bias at play as well. He might be dismissing the level of danger because she's a woman. But the reality is Jodie's obsessive pursuit is being intermittently reinforced by Travis. And Travis's ambiguous boundaries are unintentionally prolonging this dynamic. It seems like Jodie's behavior towards Travis right now is much different and potentially more alarming than we've seen in her past relationships.

How did she get to that headspace so suddenly? So it appears sudden, but in reality, I think it's been a slow psychological build. By the time she met Travis, Jodie had already been cycling through unstable attachments, identity shifts, and changing herself to fit the men that she dated. She's already been a victim of infidelity. But with Travis, he was both highly desirable and emotionally unavailable. That combination can be deeply triggering for someone with abandonment deficits. Like I mentioned, it was giving her intermittent reinforcement, and that's one of the strongest

psychological hooks. It's the same principle behind slot machines. You don't win every time, but you win just enough to keep pulling that lever. And for Jodie, that maybe from Travis was more powerful than a clear yes or no. Now pair that with her fragile sense of identity. Her belief that love is something you earn by becoming indispensable and her desperation for emotional control,

and then you can get obsessive fixation when you combine those. Travis wasn't just a boyfriend. He was a symbol of her worth to her. Her ability to keep him, even if it's just physically meant she wasn't as, quote, broken or unwanted, as she feared she was deep down.

While Jodie and Travis' toxic cycle of attraction and rejection not only continued, it grew. For the next few months, they slept together at Travis' house, engaged in frequent phone sex and met up during work trips out of state. But that didn't mean they were back together. While Travis was privately carrying on with Jodie, he was actively looking for a devout Mormon girl to marry. Jodie wasn't oblivious to this because she kept close tabs on Travis. She graduated from peeking at his emails to watching his every move.

And around this time, she also started recording their phone conversations, which were often explicit and highly sexual. It's not clear what Jodie was planning to do with these conversations. Maybe she just liked knowing she had something tangible that Travis didn't want anyone to hear. After all, he was very active in the Mormon community and had publicly claimed he was saving himself for marriage. If his friends or members of the church heard those recordings, his reputation would be ruined. Regardless of why Jodie made these recordings, she wasn't doing anything with them just yet.

But that July, her worst-case scenario came true. Travis found someone new, a Mormon woman named Lisa. They'd met at a church function and began casually dating, but decided to take things slow. When Jodie heard about Lisa, her behavior got even more troubling. She started stalking Travis and Lisa, and reportedly even slashed Travis' tires on two separate occasions. She also showed up at Lisa's home and banged on her windows Lisa and reportedly even slashed Travis's tires on two separate occasions. She also showed up at Lisa's home and banged on her windows before running away.

So Jodie's gone from an unhealthy obsession to stalking to early signs of targeted violence. And this is because her worst case scenario has come true. Travis has found someone new and not just anyone, someone who represents everything Jodie thought she had become for him. Lisa's Mormon, she's modest and socially appropriate for him in his circles. She fits into Travis's world in a way that I think Jodie deep down knew that she never could. And that's what makes this so psychologically significant for Jodie. It's not just that Travis is moving on, it's that he's choosing someone who didn't use sex or obsession or sacrifice to earn his love. And for Jodie, who spent so much energy

becoming whatever she thinks men want, that kind of rejection shatters her sense of self. It suggests that no matter what she does, she wasn't desirable enough, which at its core is a deeply held belief she has about herself. And because he's rejected her before she rejected him, and he's moved on before she has been able to replace him,

she's unraveling in violent ways. It's also important to remember that stalkers feel justified in these actions. They see themselves as victims who have been wronged, betrayed, and replaced. In Jodie's mind, she's not the aggressor. She's the woman who gave everything and got discarded. That self-righteous victimhood can become increasingly dangerous because it sanctions violence in the name of justice. So do these patterns that Jodi's showing

suggest traits consistent with borderline personality disorder or something else? Again, I've never met Jodi. I've never evaluated her, so this is purely educational, it's not a formal diagnosis, but yes, Jodi's pattern of behavior does appear consistent with traits commonly associated with borderline personality disorder,

though there are also elements that may suggest overlapping or co-occurring features of other personality structures, such as narcissistic or even antisocial traits. In terms of borderline personality disorder, here's what is consistent with the disorder. She has frantic efforts to avoid real

or imagined abandonment, unstable and intense interpersonal relationships, identity disturbance, impulsivity, and potentially self-sabotaging ways, and inappropriate intense anger or difficulty controlling anger, which we're definitely seeing now. With that in mind, it's critically important to emphasize that the vast majority of people with borderline personality disorder are not violent.

In fact, individuals living with borderline personality disorder are much more likely to harm themselves than others, and they often experience profound emotional pain, shame, and difficulty in relationships, not because they're dangerous, but because they feel unsafe, unloved, or abandoned. In talking about this, the intent is to understand the psychology behind her escalation of behaviors. It's important not to stigmatize people with this condition. Violence, especially the kind seen in criminal cases, often stem from a complex mix of factors,

which include trauma, rejection sensitivity, identity disturbance, and in some cases, co-occurring traits like narcissism or antisocial behaviors. Borderline personality disorder alone does not predict criminal behavior. Even though Jodie's behavior was getting progressively more alarming, Travis couldn't quit her. They kept sleeping together even though he was seeing someone else. His new girlfriend Lisa eventually found out about this and decided she'd had enough of both Jodie and Travis. She broke things off. It seemed like the door was open for Jodie and Travis to get back together.

Except, it turned out, Jodie wasn't as single as she let on. In January 2008, she'd started a long-distance relationship with a guy in Utah named Ryan Burns. But while she got closer to Ryan, she continued sleeping with Travis. Jodie and Travis seemed to be each other's kryptonite, and since they were both in Mesa, their toxic entanglement continued with late-night visits, secret hookups, and emotional chaos. And in the spring of 2008, things finally came to a head. Jodie and Travis were planning to go to Cancun together and even had their reservations all

lined up. But at some point in April, Travis told Jodie that he was going to bring a woman named Mimi instead. Jodie got so angry, she decided to leave Mesa and return to California to live with her grandparents. For the first time in a while, it looked like the toxic cycle was finally over. Travis saw Jodie's move as a chance to breathe again, and he even confessed to a friend that he was ecstatic about it, saying,

I'm getting my life back. This is a whole new start. But Travis and Jodie couldn't stay away from each other for long. They continued to engage in phone sex and exchange dirty text messages. Here's an excerpt of one of the safer messages Travis sent to Jodie in May of 2008. When I am all by my lonesome, I have no desire to think of anyone else in my scandalous fantasies, because from my own experience, nothing is even enjoyable compared to you." Just a few days later, Jodie published a cryptic blog post about the law of attraction,

saying that it wasn't just about chemistry, it was destiny. Jodie exhibits a long-standing pattern of intense and unstable interpersonal relationships, which likely extends beyond romantic partners to include friends and family members as well. As previously outlined, her behavior reflects a persistent attempt to prevent real or perceived abandonment, often through extreme or manipulative means. Ironically, these very tactics frequently backfire, driving others away and reinforcing the cycle she fears the most. Given this pattern, it's highly probable that some, if not most, individuals in Jodie's life, whether

romantic, platonic, or family, have eventually set boundaries or have even gone no contact following the deterioration of their relationship. She lived with her grandmother and there's a reason for that. Why her grandmother? Why not her parents? Everyone has a threshold, and Jodi's emotionally volatile or loyalty testing behaviors likely exhausted those limits over time

with some people in her life. What makes her dynamic with Travis particularly significant is that this may be the first time someone has remained in her orbit despite her increasingly concerning behavior. His intermittent engagement, sexually, emotionally, and socially likely felt profoundly validating to Jodie. For someone with her psychological vulnerabilities,

this kind of inconsistency doesn't signal conflict, it signals fate. So she already had begun to incorporate his religious beliefs into her identity, which added a deeper layer of psychological and existential investment. And as a result, Jodie is likely to misinterpret the back and forth nature of their relationship as evidence that they're destined to be together, not in spite of all the turmoil, but because of it. This is where emotional fixation crosses into obsessive delusion, particularly when fueled by unmet attachment needs and unstable self-concept.

Is this kind of viewpoint that Jodi has right here a warning sign for potential violence? Yes. In this case, it is a warning sign. It suggests a loss of perspective and grounding in reality. And when you add a fragile or unstable sense of self, abandonment and rejection sensitivity, the inability to tolerate separation, the emotional instability and her identity fusion, it creates an elevated risk for violence. Jodi is also exhibiting behavior that resembles obsessive relational intrusion, and that's where a person engages in repeated unwanted pursuit of someone that they're romantically fixated on.

And with all of this combined, there is a significant risk that when the fantasy of this quote divine relationship is threatened, violence may be viewed as a way to reclaim power, to punish the perceived betrayal or to permanently prevent the abandonment she fears. Many who engage in intimate partner violence have traits that are very similar to this. Well, the chaos in Jodi's life wasn't just contained to her relationships. A few weeks after she moved back in with her grandparents, there was a burglary in the area.

A 25-caliber gun, $30 in cash, a stereo, and a DVD player were stolen from a residence and reported to police. It didn't seem like the robbery was a big deal to 27-year-old Jodi, though. She had her mind on other things, like her relationship with Travis. They'd been communicating by phone and text since she left Mesa about two months ago, but at this point, she decided she wanted to see him in person. She was still also seeing her boyfriend in Utah, Ryan. In the end, she planned a whole road trip full of her relationships, past and present. She planned to stop at her ex Darrell's in California, then go to Travis's, and then up to Utah to see Ryan. On June 2, 2008, Jodie rented a car, packed it up, and stopped to see Daryl in Monterey,

California as planned before starting the 1,000-mile drive to Arizona. She arrived at Travis' home around 4 a.m. on June 4, but it was just a short pit stop. After spending the day in bed with Travis, Jodie got back on the road and headed for Utah. Nobody knew about Jodie's visit. She and Travis were seeing other people, so the whole thing was very hush-hush. And after Jodie left, Travis went completely MIA. That evening, he missed an important work call, which was extremely unlike him. In the days that followed, Travis didn't answer any texts or calls. At some point, his friends started to worry.

They knew something was wrong. They just didn't know what. And when they found out what was hidden behind the closed doors of Travis' Mesa home, the truth was far more horrifying than anyone could imagine. Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time for the conclusion of our deep dive on Jodi Arias. Killer Minds is a Crime House original powered by PAVE Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on Instagram at Killer Minds. And don't forget to rate, review, and follow Killer Minds wherever you get your podcasts.

Your feedback truly makes a difference. And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple podcasts. You'll get every episode of Killer Minds ad free, along with early access to each thrilling two-part series and exciting Crime House bonus content. Killer Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson, and Dr. Tristan Engels and is a Crime House original powered by PAVE Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Killer Minds team, Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Laurie Marinelli, Natalie Pritzovsky, Sarah Camp, Kate Murdoch, Markie Lee, Sarah Tardiff, and Kerry Murphy.

Thank you for listening. Looking for your next listen from our Crime House slate of shows? Don't miss Murder True Crime Stories. Carter Roy is looking into one of the most haunting, mysterious, unsolved cases. The boy in the box. Listen to and follow Murder True Crime Stories every Tuesday and Thursday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts.