Mind the Game - How Steve Nash Changed Basketball

Episode Date: April 15, 2025

We’re back for Episode 3 of Mind the Game with LeBron James and Steve Nash where we do a deep dive into how Steve Nash succeed in the NBA and ultimately changed the sport forever. We explore how his love of soccer and hockey allowed him to survive and innovate in the NBA — ultimately resulting in 2 MVP awards. We also dive into The Nash Dribble, the hesitations moves, the pull-up 3-pointer and of course the 7 Seconds of Less Suns and playing for Mike D’Antoni. We hope you enjoy this episode!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Here we go. All right, we'll do quiet on set. Thank you. There we go. Welcome to another episode of Mind the Game, brought to you by Uninterrupted and Wondering. Today we're here in beautiful Indianapolis. at the Thunderdome, the home of the Pat McAfee show.

It was gracious enough to let us camp out here, shoot this episode where we covered my career, what made me successful. Although sheepish sometimes about my career, it was really cool to speak with LeBron about my journey and how I was able to play in the league and have success. LeBron brought up an MBA piece of terminology

called the Nash dribble or gnashing. Yes, I feel kind of awkward explaining this, but essentially a Nash dribble, is where perhaps I have the ball on the wing I beat my man the defender comes to help with the rim and instead of shooting, passing or getting out

I would circle under the basket keep my dribble alive and just ask questions of the defense ask the big if he's going to switch ask if they're going to get back see who turns their head on the perimeter see what advantage I create by not getting rid of the ball but by keeping it and search

circling under the basket. I think that's all you need to know in this episode. Hopefully you learned something new. And of course, as always, I hope you enjoy Mind the Game. Please like and subscribe. All right, here we are. Mind the game, we're back. So what do you want to talk about today?

I mean, I know we do a lot of talking about, you know, the game and other players. And sometimes we even talk about me and all that. But I think it's only right. I know how humble you are. How modest you are, Steve. I know it. But we have to talk about you, man.

Like, I just want to know, like, from not only myself, but from everyone, like, how are you so successful? Wasn't the tallest, the fastest, wasn't the most athletic. Like, how the hell did you get it done year after year after year? And by the way, two MVP trophies. Thank you. It's only a select few. We know the list. Only a select few.

Like, I want to know. Well, it's a long story, really. Yeah. You know, because it goes back to like your roots. There's no way, right? Like, line me up on the line and say, let's see who can like run, jump, wrestle, fight, you know, throw, whatever. I'm not going to win any of those contests. But, you know, I think the way I grew up was a huge, huge part of it.

But I think the bottom line is for whatever reason, how. However, nature, nurture, I can get obsessed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the bottom line is I got obsessed with trying to be the best I could be. So I put in that time. I constantly was trying to get better. You know, I didn't start playing basketball until I was 13. And I think that's kind of where the story starts.

You know, my parents from the UK, my dad played soccer. Yeah, about saying big soccer team. You know, I was out in the backyard playing soccer. And they put me into everything growing up in the West Coast of Canada. I played hockey, played baseball and box lacrosse in the summer. So I think for me, not playing basketball to late, like, I was still getting my 10,000 hours playing other sports, like physical literacy, anticipation, angles. And then, you know, you learn, like, when you love playing sports, you learn how to protect space. You learn how to exploit space.

So, like, it was, for me, especially coming from a soccer background, like, you always have to have your head on a swivel in soccer because if you're not thinking ahead, you're going to get kicked. when ball comes through, you got to know what you're going to do with it, what are my options. So when I went to start playing basketball 13 years old, you know, I almost felt like this, I felt like it was cheating that I could use my hands and like spin the ball, right, right, right, right, right. Use both hands. And so I kind of think that all came from playing all those other sports. And then one other really pivotal part for me, I think, was my dad.

You know, my dad being just loving sports. But his, like, when we played in the backyard, you know, he always challenged me in the right way. So, like, if I try to dribble when I should pass, he's going to tackle me. If I pass, when it's the right decision, he's going to reinforce it. If I score three goals in a game when we get in the car,

he wouldn't say three goals, yes, he'd be like, you remember that one time, you had a shot, you drew the defense, you played it off to your teammate, he had an open goal, best play of the game. So my value system was trying to outthink, outsmart, be clever, be winning,

the things that he valid. Yeah. Right? So that was always kind of what I was trying to do was to impress my dad, like, that I know how to play. And so I think that the, all these little ingredients, playing all the sports, you know, having that value system and then, but most importantly, just becoming obsessed with whatever I was doing, you know, those are the huge ingredients.

And I feel like, I feel like soccer too, like, you know, obviously growing to love soccer as I've gotten older or whatever, I'm respecting the sport, I feel like you being able to use that sport for like knowing angles when you when you started playing basketball like I always was like impressed with your ability to master the angle game as well you're not out on the floor either if it was coming off a pick and roll or if it was a certain pass or if it was you know just kind of reading the defenses or whatever the case may be you know I know as always like anytime you know you hear someone's background being soccer right you see how it can translate to the game a basketball where it almost puts you plays and plays in advance because in soccer if you're not

like they can way ahead or you're you're not going to make it that's right yeah for sure it's a great point i mean i don't think i play in the NBA if it wasn't for soccer you know because like i said like you just physically you know in the ballpark but not like great and so you know that was a huge part of it and then i think also just being like that i couldn't like just run past everyone I couldn't jump over everyone. I couldn't just be physical. I had to be really, really efficient, like develop. And so when talking about angles, you know, I had to be, I learned to be really greedy.

Like, I'm going to get there and that angle where you're done. Yeah. You're taking you out. Like, I couldn't have any of the excess fat. Right, right, right. Right. You know, footwork, shooting, passing, decision making had to always be really sharp. So I think that a lot of that came from soccer.

the angles, but then a lot of that just came from trial and error. This guy's pushing me left, will become great in your left. You know, he's stronger than me. How do I keep him on his heels, right? How can I take an angle where I have the advantage? And I dictate the pace of play now. So all these little things you learn from trial and error, you learn from being sharp, but you also like learn because you're obsessed.

At the end of the day, like for kids, like you're the same. Like, you're obsessed with trying to get better. You have a growth mindset. You can't let go of it, right? So all the things we talk about are great, and they're all factors. They're all a part of this, you know, pot that makes you who you are. But the one that really, I think, transcends, like, for all the great players in sport, is they are obsessed with performance.

Yeah, for sure. And funny, while we own angles, it's funny, because I feel like you mastered the angle of the baseline when you played. and it became a thing called the fucking Nash dribble. When did that become a thing or was it just always a part of the game? Because we both know, like some guys get there on the baseline

and it becomes like the deep water of the pool. Guys are... Panic. The panic. Step out of bounds or panic and I need to get back out to the perimeter. Force is shot. Yeah, force is shy. You're behind the baskets. You don't quite know. You turn the ball over.

Like, when did the Nash dribble because, become like a staple for you. You know, it's a great question. Like, I don't remember when you started doing it. You know, I will say this, though. I grew up, like Wayne Gretzky was my hero when I was a kid, one of my heroes. And for anyone who watched hockey, he used to skate behind the net and stop, like, facing the play with his back to the boards. So why is that ingenious?

Because he's just changed the perspective of all the defenders, including the goal. keeper, the goaltender. So the goalie's sitting there, the puck stopped behind him. So when he does this, what does he see? He doesn't know where the traffic's coming. So he's doing this. Then defenders, they usually have their back to their goal, seeing everything in front of them. Now they have to turn their face their own goal. So they don't know who's cutting, who's changing, right? So it always resonated with me how he was able to flip the script on the defense, change their perspective, put them at a disadvantage. And so I think I started realizing, like, okay, I'm able to get to spots, but I don't have a solution.

Like, I can't jump over everyone. You know, later in my career, you know, develop fadeaways and floaters and runners and all use the glass and the one-legged stuff. But I needed a solution that I couldn't just get in there and have to take a bad shot or force a play. So what I felt was like I earned this real estate. Yeah. So I'm not just going to give it back to it. you by like chucking it out for a non-player, you know, a guy that's not a creator to have to catch it, go to half court, catching, get it back. I was like, I created a defense is now,

they're all turning to face me. They don't know who's cutting, who's spacing, who's relocating, and are they going to switch or are they going to try to get back? If they're going to switch, I'm in charge. I got a big on my guy or I got the big that I can toys. I can take him out. I can take a fade away. I can keep circling. I can probe, see what's a defender on the perimeter. So I felt like it was a real estate game. I'd approve that real estate. Now I'd change their perspective.

Now they don't know whether to switch and get back. If you're on the perimeter, you have to turn and see where's that ball now. Yeah, for sure. In the teeth, it's a little bit like post to pass. Why that's successful is throwing in the post. Now as a defender, you have to see a man and ball. So if I turn to see ball. No, I cut.

I'm gone. Cutting. Screen slipping, whatever it is. So I felt like I'd created an advantage. I'd create a confusion. I changed their perspective. They had to look in ways that they were uncomfortable

or they couldn't see both now. And then if all those fails, if they don't switch, I could throw it up when they were trying to get back. If they do switch, we got a big under the rim or I can take him out and take advantage.

So it really just came from not being able to attack the rim. I mean, I could always finish. Right, right, right. But I could, if I had space or time, right, right, right. I couldn't just go at a seven-footer or a six-six, dude.

right? So I had to think, all right, I got here, I can exploit this still, just not in the traditional way. Yeah, yeah. Now, that's interesting, especially like the correlation with the whole Gresky thing, you know, being able to change the whole perception and P-O-V by going behind the goalie, going behind the forwards, and now I'm facing it. Everyone has to turn. So that's, I never. It's also like in soccer. You know, when someone like whips it across, if you play it between the goalkeeper and the defense. So the defense now is running back into a place where they don't want to let it go in case someone they can't see is coming behind them.

But if they play it, they can put it in their own goal. The goalkeeper's like, should I come or shouldn't I come? So you're putting the defense in a position where you're like, you've got some really hard decisions to make. So growing up playing hockey, playing soccer, you kind of recognize some of these things where you put them in a bad position that you can exploit, even if you can't, like, just run past everyone. So, you know, I guess what do they say? Like, invention is the mother of necessity or necessity is the mother of invention.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the right way around. Yeah, for sure. No, no, that's dope. I got one more question for you before we move on. I know you don't like talking about yourself too much or whatever the case may be, but was it you or was it Dan Tony, seven seconds or less? Well, that's, I mean, Mike's amazing. Yeah.

You know, Mike just had a great feel. for the game, especially offensively. I mean, Mike knows defense. He knows basketball. He draws up great plays after timeouts. He knows the game inside and out. But what I loved about Mike is that he was willing to go away from what everyone else was doing. Oh, for sure.

You know, so when I signed with Phoenix 2004 as a free agent, came back, started playing pickup the guys in September. And I think Mike realized there. You know, it was a team that hadn't won many games. He had some young guys, Sean and Amari. Obviously, great athletes. Joe Johnson was developing into a terrific player. And I think he saw us playing pickup basketball. He's like, why would I slow this down and get into sets that are going to make them less effective than opening this up?

Let's put Amari at the five. Let's put Sean at the floor. Let's switch a lot more. We'll find a way to use our quickness to defend in different ways, and we'll outscore people. And so I think Mike was brilliant in that, like, he was willing to say, wait, wait, wait, why would I? You know, like, that's almost harder. Like, you can go and find, this is the, you know, ATOs. You look around the world and find whatever you want.

But for him to say, like, I'm not going to do what everyone else is doing and take that chance and that risk. You know, it definitely brought the best out of me, going smaller, having a great roller. Two with Sean, having shooters around, being able to just create space for me to operate, to make plays, make decisions for my teammates. So I think, one, that was a culmination of me developing and continuing to put my foot down as far as trying to get better. Like, little things, like going into that summer, you know, I always wanted to stay with the Mavericks. you know I think Mark had been burned on a couple deals I was 30 at that time I was attacking the basket a little bit kamikaze you know

didn't maybe have the balance to my game I think he was scared so he let me go so you know all these things kind of happened but before that happened I'm thinking to myself we lost in the playoffs I think it was Sacramento they like put a third defender on our side of the court whenever we were playing two man game there was nothing there for me, you know, I always had to go the other side, and they'd play two-on-one, and that was it.

Rick Adelman was like, I'm happy to let these guys over here play, and in a sense took me out of the series. So I was like, that's not happening again. I'm going to get sharper, I'm going to be better, I'm going to shoot a better person on me. And one of the things that I think helped me a little bit was I played out of my left hand a lot, and I drove left, and I pulled up going right. And at summer, I was like, I'm going to clean that up. I'm going to be able to pull up going both ways, drive the ball both ways.

And so I really worked on like some of my deficiencies. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Balance stability, forward, quickness in and out of a pull-up. So that now I had more solutions going left pull, going left run or floater, going right-puller, finishing both ways. I think it just unlocked a little more. And then Mike saying, we're going to play small, we'll have Amari rolling, we'll have guys running wide, we'll have shooters around it, we'll let Steve go to work. Yeah. And so that I think those two kind of.

things happening at the same time set me up for a lot of success and set our team up. Yeah, and like a lot of the conversations wasn't really talked about that much about guys doing the 50, 40, 90 thing. You know, I think, if I'm not mistaken, I think Reggie did it, you know,

once maybe in the 90s. I think Byrd did it. I'm not quite sure if Ray had done it yet, maybe. We can always look that up, I'm not quite sure, but it became a thing when you were doing because it was like, oh shit every year.

Like, once you got into your pocket, it was like 50 from the field, 40 from 3, 90 from the free throw line. Yeah. And everybody was trying to figure out a way of how they could fucking attain that. You know, like, everybody's like trying to do that now. Like everyone, not only 50, 40, 90, but now everyone is playing four out. Yeah. One end. You got a guard or five out.

Or five out, you know, and trying to figure out how to create space. Like, you know, you said in 2004 or 2005. Like when you went to Phoenix, you know, we remember fucking San Antonio two bigs, Detroit, two bigs, Miami played with two bigs, you know, like Sacramento, two bigs, like everybody were playing two bigs. And I don't think that you and I don't think that Mike gets enough credit for revolutionizing the game to where it is today. You know, they always talk about players. They talk about how transcended a player can be, you know, you know, magic and bird. And, you know, she killed Neil and Kobe and Michael and Steph Curry and all, you know. You're saying yourself.

I don't think that you and, first of all, your style of play, how you and Dan Tony mirrored so easily to transcend the game. That is the game today. Yeah. You guys were before his time, the true essence of before his time. Well, I think it was right at the right time because the rules were changing too. So you couldn't, like, have two hands on a guy anymore. You know, when I came in the league, you could, like, literally hold a guy's hip and chucked. Oh, Derek Harper.

Like, just stuck. I'm like, what am I supposed to do with this? Right? I mean, you go across the lane, bam, like, it was different. And that was the traditional way the game was played, that physicality. You know, the league, I think wisely wanted to make it a more free-flowing, open, highlight the athleticism. Yeah, yeah. Which, you know, we're going to talk about it.

later, you know, where that's taken us and how we got here, which I think is amazing. So, like, you think about it, we were small. There's rim protectors. You got Timmy, you got Shaq, you know, all these guys around. We didn't have that. But we did have Amari, you know, who has unbelievable feet and hands in athleticism. So how can we cope defensively not being a rim protection team by, one, being different, switching more, you know, trying to find ways to junk up the game in that respect?

And on the offensive side, how can we blow teams away? And so it was an amazing time for me in a sense because I think I had just taken my game, my skills, my confidence to a new level, and then Mike opened the floor up and play. But again, like, it was a precursor because we hadn't fully committed as a league, right? We hadn't committed totally to three ball.

You know, we hadn't committed totally to the analytics at all. For sure. I mean, they talked about you guys. Like, why are seven seconds or less? Like, why are you guys got to get up the floor so fast? Like, let things develop. Sure. Or why you guys are playing four out one in?

Like, it's not the league what it is today or at that time. And so, you know, it was kind of like, you know, they didn't, it's always that, that, it gets to that point when it's not, has not been done before. You know, and, but it was always respected because of, and feared. Yeah. That was one of the things that you knew you had to get a good night's rest before playing y'all. Yeah. If you ain't ready to run, you're going to get your ass ran out of the gym. You know, it's nice for you to say that, but I think, like, I remember we started the year, like, I had a 31 and 5 or something.

And I think what we noticed is, like, by the fourth quarter, teams were done. A lot of times, teams were done. They, like, relentless pace, pace after making. getting it out and I'm just going and happy to throw ahead or happy just to take it or if it's semi-transition or you know secondary break we're straight into our drag action we're right in the floor we're getting to it against a defense that's trying to get back so as the game wears on and we're relentless with that you know I think it really that was as much a precursor because that's the part maybe we don't talk about as much as that that relentlessly now our team's actually slowed

down a little after that first year like so much so that I think even that first year we'd be a bottom team in pace nowadays. So that's one of the things, like, we were thought of as the seven seconds left playing with this crazy pace. Not even close to the way it's playing today. Right? Not even close. So I think like we were a precursor. I think there's

an influence there. I think a lot more teams started to say, I don't have a Timmy, I don't have a shack. You know, I got a guy that can kind of protect the room. He's not skilled, so he hurts us in other ways. So how can we find? So what's happened is the profile of height and players is gone like this. Like,

For, I think, while today's game, offensively, I would have been even better. Defensively would have been harder. Yeah. It's hard for small guards in today's game. Like anyone, like, unless you're like a big six three, like six three and under, like it's hard because the court has spread so far. You have to cover guys in space. There's less small players out there. You've got to cover guys that are bigger, stronger spacing.

five out, rim rollers, whatever it may be, you're on attack at all times. And that position, too. Like, you can try to hide and guard the two or the three or whatever on certain teams. But it's becoming harder and harder to do that because the amount of shooting, the amount of length. Like, you know, there's always someone out there that can drive a closeout on good teams nowadays that are like the fourth option. That's where the game is continuing to evolve and revolutionized. But I think, like, back then, we were making teams fearful because they knew that they had to.

If they didn't stay with us with the pace, it's going to be 20 points before you know it. Yeah, for sure. And then you can't get back in because you're tired. Right. Right. So that was a precursor, but still, like, not even close to where we are today. But, man, those were some fun teams. Mike was unbelievable, I think, at, like, putting us in that position.

And then, you know, for me, I think it was the confluence of the rules being less physical, more open. That allowed me to really highlight my creative. how to exploit space, how to find angles, like you said. I had to be so greedy with my angles, just because I wasn't as athletic, it's mostly guys in playing against. But incredible time, and you see it now. You see it around the league.

The seeds of that now. Yeah, for sure, it's blossomed. Yeah. For sure. Shout out, man, Mike Danton. Yes, for sure. Cheers to Mike. Yeah, for sure.

Definitely taught me a lot. You know, as someone who's always looking for that next rush, whether it's driving the lane or threading the needle, we get it. You need that excitement. And let me tell you, I've found it in Audible. No joke, these audiobooks have me on the edge of my seat, whether on a long drive or in a recovery session. From heart-pounding thrillers to epic adventures,

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That's Audible.com slash G-A-M-E. In this episode, LeBron mentioned the 2-9 guy or 2-9ing. Essentially, that is the help defenses. opportunity to come help and be in the lane not guarding their designated offensive player but playing in a zone or in a help position you only have under three seconds so in the league we say the two nine guy or two point nine for the amount of time you're allowed to spend in the lane without guarding your direct offensive player we also talked about the ex out guy in this conversation so essentially if we have two shooters stacked on offense in a pick and roll here comes the

pick and roll. Here comes the ball handler. This defender rolls. Obviously we have defenders all over the floor here. As the roller rolls, usually it's this corner man's opportunity to come in and help. This X takes up this position between the two offensive players and then takes the first pass wherever it goes. And then the original rotator is going to now take his original man. We continue to talk about, you know, you in Phoenix and when you guys were, you know, seven seconds or less and four out one in or whatever case may be, or sometimes even, you know, sometimes Matrix even be at the five, you know, or Channing Frye, you know, be at the five. But one thing that I noticed that wasn't really being done a lot in our league was the dribble up pull-up threes. you know that you kind of mastered you know I can only remember maybe one guy in our league maybe a couple guys I know big shot billups you know he was really good with his rocker pull up

but you kind of kind of mastered it and was it something that was just like did it just something that you worked on or just kind of clicked or it was like okay in order for us to really expand our offense that had to be done a bit of everything you know I mean I remember guys did it like I remember too hard away he used to pull up from three and stuff but like back then we just didn't shoot as many trees so for me again like just the need to like exploit space and time and so I practiced it you know make a couple you're like I can repeat that not that he practiced it like full speed get him on his heels pull up a three yeah yeah if I can make that like an efficient shot that's a weapon oh for sure especially like defense has to keep they come up

higher higher higher uh huh you know you see it like with Steph like how he's like how he's He's like, you know, I wanted to shoot close to the line. You know, if I grew up today, I'd probably shoot deeper. But, you know, we were coming from an area and were like, you don't take those shots. You don't take a bunch of threes. Right, right? The one in the polls. It was the opposite, right?

It was almost looked down apart. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So you're trying to get close to the line and pull. But what Steph has been brilliant at is drawing the whole defense out. And now, like, the culture, like, every night you see guys take threes from two, three feet behind. It's not just Steph. It's like the whole league takes threes. You take threes from out.

out here, where I don't think in the first three, four, five years in your career, you're trying to step a yard outside, you know, like, too yard. It was only if it was the clock was going down. Like, yeah, literally, like. Right. So I felt like I had an advantage because I could push the ball hard at the defense, and you have a decision to make. You have a decision.

And this kind of goes into how I played in general, but you had a decision to make, are you going to get up above the three-point line, at which point I can go by you? Or are you going to get on your heels, at which point I had the three. Right. You know, I think it also came a little bit from, I essentially played out of a hesitation. So, and that, I would say, that was such a key to my game because I didn't have to work that hard.

And basically what I was saying, just had the, just dance and hold the ball, let it hang, and I could have it hang right here. So you couldn't reach for it. If you did, I could just go through your arm. But at the same time, if you got on your heels, I could go up, but what I was really doing is baiting you to get too close. So as it hangs, you have a decision to make. Do you want to respect that he might go by me, or do I want to close the gap because he could shoot? And then if you didn't come, I can just do it again.

So nowadays we stop and we shoot from here. Back then, I could walk my guy to 12, 15 feet sometimes because they were fearful that I was going to go by, that they'd create havoc, and then just one has he, two, has he three. right now I'm at 14, 15 feet. Back in the day, that was a great shot. Right, right, right. Right now we're eliminating those and we're shooting them from here.

Right. But so for me, I didn't have to, da, da, da, da, da. Six, seven hard dribble moves to get to my spot. I could just skip, hang the ball, keep it away from you,

and just ask you, comment or not. Where the hell you get that swag from? Because you said I grew up playing lacrosse, hockey. Yeah. That right here, that ain't,

them ain't hockey moves. That ain't hockey moves. That ain't lacrosse swag. There's little bits in there. There's little bits in there. So, like, I remember at hockey camp when I was, like, 11 years old, you know, I'm just a little guy. And the coach stopped the camp and said, Steve, show me that head fake. We were just, like, huddle up.

I didn't know what he meant. He's like, you know that. And he's like, every time you come up on a guy, you just, your head just starts going. And he's like, and they get on their heels. He's like, show the guys. And it was the first thing. I didn't know I was doing that. I was just trying to get him off back.

Right, right, right. So I think there was something that I always just innately liked about rhythm, just changing your balance, getting you to lean one way or the other. Same in soccer too. You show a little bit too much of the ball, but you know, like the last second. And so the cross too, like you, you know, you're trying to basically get a guy on this wrong foot or whatever. So I think it was in there for a deception standpoint. And that just to me, like, and then like, you know, like, you're trying to, you know, you're trying to

started playing basketball, fell in love with it, like the first Air Jordan won, Spike Lee commercials. There, there it go. Now it's coming out. It was right when I was in the eighth grade. Right, when I started playing.

It was seventh grade, summer going into eighth grade. I was like, this world's amazing. And then, I mean, let's also just be real. Like, I wanted to be black. Listen.

All the best players in the world were black. All the best rapper, you know. Listen. So I'm trying to emulate anyone who had something about them, right? something had some you know some way to deceive that just the beautiful it's funny it's so funny you say that because we say the same shit about a r we were like a r there's no way there's no way you learned that in fucking arkansas it's like mark keef moors we call him smooth on a team it's

like no fuck that i'm not believing you from Arkansas you got to be from new jersey or whatever all all of that you got that bopopopop like you didn't learn that shit in arkansas but that's the thing i'm sure he like me was like i want to do more with the ball yeah yeah yeah I want to be able to beat better players off the dribble. I want to, you know, you want to emulate the greats. And for me, that was an exciting way to play. It was like watching, you know, Hardaway Killer Crossover or Kenny Anderson or these guys I go watching it were just wizards with the ball. You know, like Isaiah was my hero.

Like just like, you know, his handle was amazing, his ability to create space shots. So that's what I wanted to be, right? I wanted to be that. And so I would be out there practicing all the time. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. You know, and then you go play and you're trying to do it. And then you start getting a little success with it, and you build on it.

Like, oh, shit, I just build on it. And I think, like, eventually just playing and recognizing all I need is my hezzy. I can just, you know, oh, you're not coming? One more. Yeah. You're not coming. One more. Oh, you're too close?

Gone. Right? It made the game simple. I didn't have, like I said, I have to make too many dribble moves. I could pull. I could go left. I could go across. You know, you could do it out of the right hand, too.

So I always preferred playing out of my left. it was more like natural for me, but I think funny enough because I sprained my ankle like in the 10th grade and refused to take time off. So like I went from a left foot jumper not that I was ever a jumper, but

left foot jumper to a right foot jumper just because this ankle still to this day is not as the same, not as good. I just never would, I was like, I'm playing through the six weeks I should be sitting down. And so I think I just was better pushing off my right way. So I prefer playing out of my left.

And it's funny, right, how all these little things, add up to something. I learned to play out of my right, of course, it's your right hand. But that saved me so much as a player, energy, simplicity, like getting myself in trouble,

pick and roll setups, same as the hip swivel. I never wanted to turn my back. As a six, barely over six-foot guard, I don't want to have my back to the basket. I want you to always feel the pressure I'm putting on you. So if I ever did have, to turn my back. It was only to get back around. So one of the things I did was this really

a hezzy is a hip swivel. So one, two, you know, pop-pap. And then what are you going to do? You're going to come tight, you know, I'm going to go by you. You fall off, I got the pull-up. If I feel like you think you know what's going on, heart, yank it back. You know, so it all just kind of developed out of necessity and then realizing how efficient I can be, playing out of hesitation. It really helped me in pick and roll setups, too. For sure. Because I would just play one-on-one. For sure.

I wouldn't tell you the screen's coming. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. As soon as you start, so off I go. You're going to lean it one way. You go another one. 100%. And my belief in the pick-and-roll is like,

and they say this as kids, but we don't really, I don't think, drill down enough. For me, the pick-and-roll was made in the setup because that gave me space. So if I got you, if you couldn't touch me when I'm coming off because I got you leaning. Yeah. So that sometimes would be split.

right between before the screen, not after, go. Go buy him this way. One time, just to put him on guard, right? Just to put him on guard, I might go by you. Now you don't, it's hard to press it. Yeah, it's hard to press up. You know, so you got the reject, you got to just go, play out of the hezzy,

you know, but essentially just trying to set your defender up to not be able to get into you, right? And so then what does that do? So now I'm off. He can't touch me. Now the big is isolated. Now it's me and you. That's all over with.

And the roller's going, and you're taught to drop with the roller. Well, if you don't, someone's coming in, I got the corner. You know, I still got the ISO and the big. So getting that yard of space is where the guard can't shove you, allow the big to drop. Now the big is nailed to. They have to guard you. And so now I'm in charge.

I can hard dribble pull. I can do my Gretzky. I can, you don't want to come. I got the, I can bait you floater. and, of course, pocket passes, the law guy from the corner comes. But to me, it all started by just playing out of the hezzy, getting them leaning, oh, off I go, you're not attached, you know. And then you know, you know a coach says, stay attached, stay attached.

So I'm going to use that against you. Yep. So one foul, you know two. You sit in to the boss. You sit next to coach. Right? So now we're playing, now I'm trying to get inside your head. Now I know you don't want to get a second.

even if you're faking it for coach right so then i might be like oh let you win on the hezzi so here you come follow me off you're attached stop hit you fall over two right you know sit down so that you know you're getting in the head so trying to just use the hezzi to be able to get off clean on a pick and roll now the pocket's huge because that big's dropping he's isolated on me he thinks i might go buy him and the roller so he's dropping no one can contest the pocket it's my world right i can exploit it how And you've created so much more opportunity for the other four guys now because now you've already got your guy off of you. It's a chain of events that happen.

Now the big is looking at his guard that was guarding you. He's off the body. So he's like, shit, I got to protect you more because you off Nash body. Now the two nine guys, like, now I've got to protect the big. He's in there. Now it's just the numbers game. Now I'm like. This is what you do.

And, you know, and then jump up to the corner. Throw the big things. You see Luca and you do it. You know, all those little things you can do. You know the ex-out guy. He's there and the thing, so it's, you know, this one or that one, whatever it is. But you are in charge and you know their rotations. And if all else fails, you know, I would do the stop, let him run me over.

Or sometimes let him fight, just give him enough space to try to fight through and pull up. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so you just had all these little tools to try to make the defender be less aggressive, be a little on edge. Because when they're on edge, you can one inside out and you're gone the other way. They get the peeking after. They're trying to see what the screen is coming from now

and now reject happens. Right. And whether it's like, they know it's the 10th time in a row we're running angle. That's fine, but I never would like give it away. Right. Or sometimes give it away, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Right? So just always making the defender feel like I don't know what's coming next. Yeah, yeah. I think that really helped me make it simple. Yeah, for sure. And exploit. I mean, I see you doing the same thing.

You don't have to. to, you know, you can just use your size strength and ability, but then the computer turns on. Yeah, yeah. Whatever you've created with your size, now you can spray them all over the gym or get to the room. Yeah, the deception game. That's it. Deception, that was it. I wasn't

fast. You was the master of the deception game. I wasn't fast, you know? Like, I was fast on the street. I wasn't fast in the league. So, you know, like, I had to be deceptive, and that was that was a huge, like the hezzi, the separation of the pick and roll, like all that stuff.

just had a huge impact on how I was able to be successful. You just broken, listen, Steve Nash just broke down for all the six-foot, two and under guys that want to play the game. That's it. That may not be faster, stronger, more athletic. He just broke it down on how you can still, you know, master your craft and be, it's a deception game. And also make hundreds of shots a day. Yeah.

Because if you can't shoot, you can't play. Especially today. You can't shoot. You can't play. Today, for sure, especially because small guys can't really guard. You have to fake it until you make it. A couple, maybe. Even in the league.

How many small guys in our league can really guard? Right. Just because of size. Right. Space. Guys are going to jump over, bully, whatever it is. So you have to be able to shoot. If you can make shots, it will keep you on the court.

That's right. And then, like, that's the other part I think that's, but what I love about today's game is more people making plays. So if you can also just make the simple one, drive a close-up, Right, start the blender. Start the blender. Yeah, start the blender. Two on one over there.

Just simple early, early, simple. Like, if you can do that, you can play on so many teams. I don't know if people realize how much a simple, you catch two on one, the cadence between if you make the pass on time on target, or if you hesitate, how much it throws the guy off from his shot, his rhythm. Great point. Great point. You can really break someone's rhythm by, you know, because they're expecting swing swing in the pocket as a rhythm skill, as a rhythm player.

Like, you know, that's part of it. But also just in this league with the athletes, that split second could be contested or uncontested. Could be blocked or not blocked. Could be a number of things. It leads to a turnover, right? Even the pass to him, that deflection, catches it. If it's not out of balance, catch the foot, stuck in the corner.

You know, so being able to play simple, play quick. You know, not being, I remember my rookie year, Danny Angels is my coach. He's like, he's like, play quick, but don't hurry. Play quick, but don't hurry. You know, I think as young players, we want to hurry. We're in a rush to do things. Whereas, you know, like now when you've mastered the craft, like you do, the games, just slow, slow right down.

You're moving the chess pieces instead of that moving. Yep, exactly. Exactly. How's that wine? It's not bad. I mean, it's definitely a conversation of wine. It's not bad, though. It's not bad.

I mean, it's not bad. It's not bad. Tuesday night in Indianapolis at the Thunderdome. I take it. Usually snobby wine drinkers say no to this. Yeah, yeah. It's not bad. Thanks for watching Mind the Game.

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