Mind the Game - Jalen Brunson, Nikola Jokic and The Evolution of the Playmaker

Episode Date: May 20, 2025

The modern NBA playmaker looks like a little of things in 2025. They can be a smaller guard like Jalen Brunson or a bigger center like Nikola Jokic. But it wasn't always like that. In the past, the scorer and the passer were two different positions assigned by specific NBA archetypes. In this episode of Mind the Game, we explore this evolution and the role LeBron James and other superstars played in the evolution of the modern NBA playermaker.Thanks for watching Mind the Game with LeBron James and Steve Nash. Subscribe and follow wherever you get your pods!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

All right. Yeah, I see that moose in the change. Mm, fucking Shambutton. Which is the one? This guy? Oh, I am. Oh, right here. Moose in New York, the Shambor to Shamperton? Yeah, that's what I was going to say.

This is a little sip. I ain't even ate you in today. Mm. Me neither. We're rolling. Welcome back to Mind the Game, brought to you by Uninterrupted and Wondry. In this episode, we discuss the playmaker, the initiator, the heliocentric player

that runs the team, breaks the first line of defense, plays cat and mouse. In this era, they have to be able to make plays for their teammates, not just. just score and vice versa. In the old days it was the point guard that ran the team but wasn't necessarily tax was scoring the ball. Nowadays we've all become a similar position player that's able to control the game and make plays whether it's for others or for themselves. Hope you enjoy this episode of Mind the Game. Please like, comment, and subscribe. How's the knee? Do you see any limp in here?

You know? I thought I'd ask. Oh, man. Like I said last episode, man, it's been a hell of a lot better, but it's getting better though. Yeah. I mean, last time we spoke, I was, you know, but it's getting better. Yeah. It's getting better.

So, you know, we also spoke about your off season, how, like, that starts the cycle again for next year, you know. So you don't really take time off, you just do other things. Right. You know, you take a little bit off, these are doing things. So how do you keep yourself, your mind, your body, active and busy when you're dealing with that? Yeah, I mean, and that's the most challenging thing. And, you know, even though I can't, like, do much as far as, like, lower body stuff, I'm still, like, in the weight room. Still get it in, upper body.

You know, the one thing I am able to do a little bit is ride, like, a stationary bike. Okay. Just to kind of keep the blood flowing and things to that nature, keep the momentum, the, you know, the flexibility as much as possible, you know, in the knee. but it's definitely I'm not a guy that likes to sit around I'm the same you know I have a lot of energy and I hate sitting around

so this has definitely been almost two weeks after the season you know they always tell you take time off I'm just not that guy stir crazy yeah I'm going crazy I'm the same how does that like what's that like for you like for me I'm anxious

if I can't get a sweat yeah what's your day like if you're like I don't know when I'm fitting my workout in right it's just the same I mean, you just, it's just something that's so abnormal, you know, when it comes to just not being able to work out and not be able to sweat, you know, things of that nature. So I guess you kind of, you make up for it by getting the steam room, you know, getting a sauna, you know, sit outside, you know, you know, I can mess around a little bit with my daughter,

you know, so that definitely helps. Just try to stay active in some way, shape, or form. You get in the pool, though? You know what? I don't spend much time in a pool, but it's something I think I should. should. Same. I don't either,

but it's great for you. Yeah, but it's definitely great for it. I mean, it takes all the pressure off of you. Unloads the joints. You know, all the joints and things

of that nature. So, you know, my daughter is a big pool girl. Yeah. So that definitely is a reason for me to get in it and mess around with her.

Yeah, that's cool. Well, these playoffs have been amazing. That's it happened. Second round, I believe the first six games, the Road Team won. Which is, is that the first time?

It has to be the first time, maybe history. First time. I think one time, like, in 80 or 81, the road team won 49% of games in the playoffs. But typically, you know, that's something that's changing, I think, with three-point variance and we can get into that. But I thought one of the things that we may want to touch on before we get into the bulk of this episode or discussion is some of these role players stepping up. You know, we've seen Mikhail Bridges make some big defensive plays.

We've seen, you know, Hart for the Knicks. Just bring that energy and kind of do everything on the floor. Caruso recently at big moments. Nemhard, knee-smith. Nemhard, knee-smith, Christian Brown. Buddy Healed stepped up. Talk a little bit about role players and how important it is for them to have their moments. One, moments in time, but also just that relentless competitive nature from your supporting act.

I mean, we both know that in order for you to have success, in our league the role players have to play a huge role you know they have to be able to star in their role and be super confident in that role they're not trying to be the star player you know they're not trying to go outside of what they do they know exactly what their objective is and they go they go do it by a team you know and you know the people that we just named you know so far in the postseason they've literally just been doing their job and and it's the reason why they've had some success you know you look at you know Indiana at

At this point right now, you know, up 3-1, you know, versus Cleveland has a lot to do with their role players. And yes, we've seen the big, big time shot by Halliburton. You know, we've seen the big time, you know, shots by Pascal Siakum, you know, but those role player guys, you know, the Nimhard, Denise Smiths, you know, those guys, you know, T.J. McConnell, you know, those guys have been coming in and just, they haven't let the spark go down. Right.

You know, you know, when they, when the guys come in off the bench and those role players come on with the bench or those star players go to the bench, those guys just keep it going. You know, so that's why the success has been here. You can't win without their efforts. No, contributions, right? There's too many pockets in games. There's too many things happened. It was interesting thinking last night, what was a game for OKC, Denver,

there was a period where it was both benches that were carrying that game, making threes, making plays, getting stops. You know, especially they played Friday night, Sunday, lunchtime, legs are tired. You need guys to step up and make plays, right? Absolutely, because, I mean, you know, you being a star player, you know, I've had my moments as a star player. You know, the bulk of the responsibility is going to be on us, you know,

and that's from a, you know, a game-playing situation, from a mindset, from holding everybody accountable to getting everybody, making sure everybody's in the right position and things of that nature. And it's taxing, especially in a postseason game, you know, you're going to have four or five guys matched up against you from, you know,

bigger guys, taller guys, you know, smaller guys, you know, smaller guys they want to just get up underneath you, you know, and it could be taxing. And like you said, having a Friday night game and then going to a Saturday afternoon game, less than 48 hours, that's when those role players, they come in with that energy. You know, maybe the guy that didn't play as much Friday night, you know, now you give him those minutes, you know, that Saturday afternoon and you get that spark that you needed the team, you know, that team needed.

And, yeah, that's what it's about. Yeah. I always say, too, I might have said it on our show here, but, you know, leadership, hierarchy and buy-in. And like every round of the playoffs, you see that on every team becoming clearer and clear. Obviously, teams go up and down.

Cleveland's in a bad moment. Some injuries, kind of out of rhythm. Indiana's like flying. So you get different variants within there. But just that leadership, hierarchy, buy-in. And, like, that is where the role players thrive. When they understand, they buy-in.

We know who the leader is or the stars. We know that everyone believes in the coach and has buy-in on their staff. but it's that hierarchy, right, that becomes so important, that kind of ties, it allows you to weather tough nights or bad moments in a series, because it's always going to come, right? The league's too good to, like, just cruise through it.

So it's always fascinating to see every round how that kind of gets more and more streamlined and you can kind of see the identity of teams. I mean, you could look at some of the best championship runs, even some of the best finals moments, has come from guys being stars in their roles. You know, all the shots, big shot, made you know the shots Derek Fisher made right this the shot yeah Steve Kerr

John Paxson yeah you know Ray Allen you know I was a part of that one you know and those guys were like when you talk about guys being stars in their role to a T you know those guys make big plays and the best thing about it they don't ever jump outside of what they are and who they are and what they commit to the team you know and you know we've had some some like some great moments and throughout NBA history from some of the greatest guys that just literally just started in their role at that particular time. Yeah, for sure.

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better. With Amex Platinum, you earn five times membership rewards points. On prepaid hotels and flights, book through AmexTravel.com on up to $500,000 on flight purchases per year. Plus, you get access to the Centurion Lounge, which makes travel that much more. enjoyable. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms apply. For more information, visit Americanexpress.com slash travel. Well, let me flip it to the other side of this whole thing. That's the star players, right? So we talked about Anthony Edwards and the step he took as a playmaker.

But let's take this all the way back. You know, now we have this, whether you call it the heliocentric player, the initiator. When I grew up, you know, a long time ago, you know, when I started playing this game in the late 80s, started late, but when I started playing, you were taught to be a true point card. Run your team. Make your teammates better.

Shoot less, but make them. Make a high percentage shoot when you're all, make plays when it counts. You know, and conversely, the scores in the 80s, they weren't asked to pass the ball at all right they were asked to score and and I have some numbers here so in 95 top 10 scores in the NBA only one averaged over five assists I think it was MJ but think about that one assists you know 95 okay in 1995 same year top 10 assists in the league top 10 guys in assists five only five averaged over 15 points a game right so like there's a discrepancy between points and assists you go to 05 top

top 10 scores five averaged over five assists. So it went from one to five, you know, and then eight of the top 10 assists guys averaged over 15 points. In 2015, the top 10 scores six averaged over five assists, and in the top 10 assists guys, nine averaged over 15 points. Go to 2025, you know, you got, of the top 10 scores, eight averaged over five assists.

So pretty much everybody, right, average over five assists. And the top 10 assists guys, eight average over 15 points. So point guards weren't really. taught 30, 40 years ago to like score the ball. You know, they're taught to run the team. Scores weren't taught to pass the ball. Like, let's get him a shot.

Let's run them off screens. Let's get him in the post, whatever it is. And then, you know, back then it was three out, two in. Right? You had a power forward that played on the block. You had a center that played around the basket. You know, then the rules changed. We went to, you know, illegal D and hand-checking rules changed,

which led to pace in space. You know, spacing went from two bigs to one, played a lot more off the elbow, a lot more of that wing, mid-post, ISO game. try to space the floor. Then we went to spread, pick, and roll where guys are getting downhill. The play is in front of them now, right? You know, in the old days when I came in the lead, we throw it in the post.

Two guys were lifted in the parking lot because the legal defense rules. So a lot of times if you wanted to double, you're not always going to make a play out of that because you're going to throw it. They're already on their bike. It's going to go around the horn. Someone's going to get an assist, but not the playmaker. Now that everyone's spreading the floor getting downhill, I think it's made a big difference. Add to that, we've recognized the value of shooting.

So the floor is, Lord, I don't know if you ever seen some of these clips of, like, the Sun's Bowles finals where, like, you know, a guy comes off a screen and he runs to 17 feet, not to three, catches a shooter doesn't shoot, and then two guys are fighting for post position on the same team.

It throws in the post. Everyone's inside of the game. So spacing's totally changed. So that creates space, having more spaces. And then playing faster against unsettled defenses. So the analytics revolution, right? We recognize now that scoring in the first six to eight seconds of the shocklight or every six to eight seconds of the shot clock Your points for possession our efficiency goes down

Create more possessions, yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's more possessions, but also your efficiency is high when you're playing against an unsettled defense, right? So the game's changed in all these ways You know, one of the other things is in order to combat, you know, these great players, we started switching everything We want to take actions away. Yeah, so now we look at the playoffs and everything's a pick-on game, you know, other than maybe Denver and Golden State But the pick-on game is because, for a number of reasons, they're switching everything. So why run a bunch of actions they switch? They just bring up the guy that you want to be in it, in action, and go from there. Bring up the guy, okay, and now it's about spacing. So all these factors have led us into a place where you need the lead guy not only to handle the ball, bring it up the court.

Even you see Choker bring the ball at seven feet. Yourself, you play basically play point card your whole career. So whoever is that playmaker, that decision-maker, is the first line of attack. attack early and it's now you have to be able to play cat and mouse i think one of the things the casual fan has to understand it looks random it looks pick on but the spacing the angles the opportunities it's very nuanced because the defenses have gotten so sophisticated when in your career because i think you're naturally you want to pass you know you just physically can score the ball with your skill and physical ability but you want to play make when did you see the game and when

did you kind of find a comfort in that? When did you see the game as far as guys start to chip where they had to make the play as well? I mean, obviously, I mean, I came in in 2003 where there was still two bigs on the block. You know, you still had teams with two bigs on the block, and there was not a lot

of space out there. And for the first few months of my rookie season, I did start at point guard. You know, I started at point guard alongside, you know, Ricky Davis was our two guards, Darius Miles, Carlos Buzer, and the junior cell Galsk and I was the point guard.

So, you know, I knew that, you know, coming in, that I was have to get guys shots. Because, like, I mean, you said it. You said, like you said, in the 95 season, there was one guy that was in the top 10 scoring the average over five assists, and that was MJ, you know. And, you know, I always looked, I always thought to myself when I was growing up

just watching basketball. His name was the shooting guard because he was the one that was shooting the damn ball. Right? You know, like, you know, And, you know, and the point guard, you know, when you watch it, you know, me and my, my guys always talk about, like, you know, when you're growing up watching the game, there was literally only maybe two guys ever bringing the ball up. And that was the starting point guard and the backup point guard. There was not many guys bringing the ball up, you know.

If you watch some of the, you know, you know, 80s games and even some of the early 90s games, like if you watch the Knicks, you know, when they have, you know, Mark Jackson, you know, they're, John Stark's never brought the ball up. You know, Pat Ewing never got a rebound and busted out on the break, you know, you know, when, you know, even when Mark went to, you know, Indiana, you know, Reggie really, he never really brought the ball up, you know, and obviously Rick Smiths and Dale Davis, those guys then bust out on the break. You know, you had those guys that was at the point guard, he brings the ball up, he gets everybody involved, you know, he knows where guys should be, how they should move, he knows the system by a T. And then, you know, the game started to shift. I think, you know, obviously I think, you know, he had guys like Grant Hill and Scotty Pippen. you know, Tony Koo Coach, you know, you had these bigger, longer wings that point forwards, you know, that started to change the game, you know, but it was still, still minute, you know, even in the 90s.

It was not many guys, they were outliers, you know. But then you started to have, like, you know, the early 2000s, and then when I started coming to the league, you had the Tracy McGrady's, you know. You know, Kobe would bust out, you know. You know, once I moved, you know, over and started playing the wing, then, you know, I started to be more of a point forward, you know, and the game started to shift, I believe, you know, probably, you know, late teens, you know, you know, obviously, you know, what you guys doing in Phoenix, you know, you guys had multiple bust out guys. Some, you know, tricks would, you know, get the rebound and bust it out. And if you were ahead, he was thought up ahead to you, you know. You know, Joe Johnson, you know, could, you know, being a six-six wing, you know, but could bust out, you know. And the game just started to shift. And, and the way you guys played, you know, the way at times that San Antonio play, when they, when they decided that Timmy was just going to be the five.

Then they started to realize, okay, we need to create more space for Timmy. And then that's when you had Tony, Tony, Manu, you Michael Finley at the time, at times. You know, they brought in McDice, you know, to give them more space. The game started to change then, I will say, late in the teens. And, you know, you know our league. It's a copycat league. sure one team do us with success okay then you know everybody starts to see if they have that one player where now we can surround him with space right you know and the game started to shift to like you said in 2025 now there's eight guys out of the top 10 scoring with five or six per game or more right you know because now and by the way it's not five if that now they're all them are six seven yeah yeah exactly and and that just comes from now the responsibility of the main player

and the responsibility of the guy to handles the ball, not only are you're responsible for scoring and putting us into action, you're also responsible for getting guys involved as well because the defense is going to attract, you know, there's a lot of double teaming

before you even get into the action. You know, guys come across half court. You know, guys are double team, Steph Curry, so soon as he crosses half court. We're not waiting for, we're not waiting for Draymond to come up into the pick-a-roll. We don't try to get the ball out your hands now.

You know, you start hunting, defensively where Anthony Edwards sees a matchup that he knows he's going to hunt. I want this guy to pick a roll and teams say, okay, well, we know you're going to switch and then as soon as we switch, we're going to fire. Get the ball out of your hands. Now you have to be able to make a decision and make a play. So, you know, our game has definitely changed, you know, a lot. But, you know, it's not, like you said, to the normal fan, it's not random.

It's not random. Or it's random with a purpose. With a purpose. Yes. You know, sometimes it looks, you know, a little chaos or a little chaotic at time. But it is definitely purposeful, you know, basketball when it comes to the way the game is played now, obviously, in 2025, compared to 1995. Yeah, it's the positionless era, right?

You know, where positions are not what they used to be. Like you said, the point guard, the two guard, you know. It's positionless basketball, and that can take on different looks, right? Like you said, you know, maybe a team plays without a center. Yeah. Maybe your best player is Nicole Yolkich, you know, he's playing and bringing the ball of the court sometimes. But what it's done is, is we've now created rosters with shooting, to create space for the creator.

And then the creator has to be the one to knock the first domino down. So you're seeing guys that aren't necessarily, quote-unquote, traditional point cards, get the ball in their hands, go, try to break the first line of defense. Because they have space, puts defense in a bind. So defense has to get more clever. Now, like you said, are they firing, hitting, getting the ball out of his hands? Are they going to a soft zone? Whatever it is that they're doing, they've got to be able to make that decision. Right?

Because you want them to have the ball. because you want to try to go early when the team's when the defense is not set at the same time when they junk it up they got to be able to read and react right i mean and it's always a it's like a fine line or whatever the case may be so you look at a guy like alan iverson who's six foot six one if you want to be generous maybe you know a buck 80 you know and but he came into our league as a flat out score you know but if it was the 80s or 90s it would have automatically been he's the point guard right That is your body type. That is what you look like. And they even tried it early on when he got to the Sixers. You know, Jerry Stackhouse was there still. I believe Derek Coleman was there still. Okay, you're the point guard.

You're six foot, 180. You're the point guard. You handle the ball. You bring it up. And then you, you know, one point throughout his rookie year, those five straight games with 40 points. Like, oh, shit, he's not the fucking point guard. This guy's a score.

And we need to bring someone in. Eric Snow. Eric Snow. But isn't that interesting? They went, in that era, we went, oh, he scored 40, five times. He's got to be our two guard. In our era, we would just be like the ball's in his hands. Balls in his hands.

It would be John Moran. Right. It would be John Moran. It would be Derek Rose when Derek Rose, you know, was at his height. It's not like, okay, put the ball in his hands, let's create instant offense, quick offense, get into it, and we figure out the rest later. Right. You know, so the game is definitely true.

It is, and it's fun to see, like, the different types of playmakers, the different types of initiators, you know. I mean, obviously, you know, one of the, like, kind of cornerstones is the James Harden player, where he, you know, and Luca's a little bit like that now, like where they have the ball, but they're amazing passers. You were like this. You're just in a way of your own category. But the guy that can, you know, get what they want offensively, whether it's to make their teammates better, read the defense, manipulate the defense, or they have the three ball, both them and the step back, both have the floater, you know, that player that can almost you run everything through them, right? So what's happened now, I think, is we went from having that guy, you know, make all the plays, all the decisions. Defense is spreading the floor of a shooting. Defense is getting a little better.

Now we're asking those shooters to be able to now play off a closeout. Now, on the good teams, have to be able to put it on the floor or try to touch the pain again, create another closeout, an open shot or a two-on-one. And I think that evolution, I think, is where fans got to really appreciate what's happening today. I think sometimes we think it's, you know, it's all too similar. But sometimes the beauty in it is that it is jazz, right? We're making it up as we go on and we're riffing, but out of principles. I think that's what's exciting about the game that maybe certain common elements for the fan are difficult to read. I think that's where the game has been fun for me to see it go, is seeing more people play out of principles than come down, get into a set.

You know, Utah used to run the UCLA stuff, another team used to run, all that stuff, different sets, which was cool too. Now I love that it's more about reading and reacting in a random setting out of principles. Do you, have you noticed a time when that, like, because I feel like that's been the last four or five years. It's been like, another reason, in a coaching scenario, you can't take the chance to run a play. And if your lead guy does not have the ball, him not getting the ball. So we put the ball in their hand at the start. We just call up the worst defender we put a pick on. Because instead of running a set, everyone switches, you know,

especially if they're off the ball. Like, let's put Jalen Brunson in the corner. Let's run some action over here. Let's get it to him on the weak side. What if he doesn't get it? Now you've got this third, fourth best player on your team making the decision in critical times in a playoff game. So it's interesting to me how quickly the game's evolving,

how defenses are taking a step, then offenses are taking a step, and it's continually cat and mouse between offense and defense. Have you felt that over the last changing over the last five years? Yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean, obviously, you know, when it, you know, when it comes to, you know, pacing space, that's number one. you know and if you do have any type of action you want to get into that's where you know you want to try to get up the floor right fast you know give yourself some more time you know with the shot clock to be able to get into the quick action right but it's not like you know like you say it's not the old utah where they run in autos it's not it's not the triangle with field jackson where you're hitting the pinch post and you got gaggle action on one side and things of that no it's it's now you know 77's quick right get to a 77 which is a double drag get to a quick let's see what the

they do. Or it's just a flat screen in the middle. Three guys on the baseline. You got your best player handling the ball. You got your second best player setting the pick and roll at the nail to see what the defense do. You're getting into the actions really fast, you know. And if you want to get your players like Joker or like you said, or Luka or certain guys to ball on the low post, and you give them the choice action where the guy brings the ball down, he's on the opposite block. You got one guy sending a pin down at the at the free throw line. You got the other guy sitting at the opposite block and you allow you to start playing. to decide which route he want to go.

But these are just quick actions, you know, to be able to get to the action and then allow your star player to have time. And if he decides, hey, I can make a move here to make myself score or I know that so many eyes are on me. I'm gonna attract. Pressure.

Four eyes, sometimes six eyes. Numbers game start. I know I got three guys. I know we got a three on two on the backside and four on three. Sometimes, you know, you got a super great player. You know, you get a four on two. You know, you had two guys try to double.

So that game is played every single night in our league, you know, by the best players and by the best coaches. I mean, it's always great to see a coach draw up a nice ATO. Oh, it's beautiful. I love it. It's great, right? It's great. But the reality is, you know, in our league, they're going to switch so much of that stuff. It's hard to do on the fly.

And it's not as beneficial as getting up and playing against an unsettled defense, right? So pushing it up. way to score. Right. It's the best way to score in our league. It's making sure that your lead guy has the ball, is making the decisions time and time again, because that is the pressure that breaks defenses over and over. And I think it's interesting, like let's talk about different types of playmakers.

We talk about Anthony Edwards trying to now take that next step, which he is starting to really grow in that. But you see other guys that have had to take that step too, like Jason Tatum. You know, he came in league more as a score. Now he's often bringing the ball of the court, often initiating the action, the one handling and pick and roll, and he's had to grow as a playmaker. Like, when he breaks the pain for them and kicks it out with all those players around, that's when they're the, what, a historically elite team.

Yeah, they're the best, historically one of the best teams that the NBA has ever seen, and they start their blender, the word we've used so much. Sure. And the last thing you want to do as an opponent versus the Celtics is be put in the blender. Right. Because it's too many guys that can do multiple things. They have too many guys that can shoot, dribble, and create. Yeah.

You know, Jason Tatum is able to break a guy down one-on-one. and he gets into the paint and you have X4 or X5 trap the box you got to understand that his five which is out Horford or Prozingus

his ass is not in the dunker he's on the three point line and once he skips now you got rotation and his closeout game now he's swinging it to Jalen Brown or he's swinging it to Derek White

or swinging it to Drew Holiday swinging it to Payton Pritchard now the best this is the best thing they do to get you in a blender you know And they're spraying for threes. You know, they're sparing for threes or get to the lane and dunking that,

which is going to be Tatum and Brown. So, you know, I think, you know, Jason Tatum's growth has allowed them as well. Obviously, their personnel was fucking dynamic and great. We all know that. They got, you know, the trade for Prozing is to be able to get Drew Holiday and the fashion they got him, made them even more elite. I mean, Al Horford coming back, you know, has given him another, you know, presence. He's so smart.

He's so smart. You know, I've played against him my whole career, or his whole career, like an older to him. He's so smart. So the growth of Tatum and Brown has just allowed, you know, Joe and his coach's staff to even be even more dynamic, you know. And when you're going to have guys that have that growth mindset to say, okay, you know what?

In my first four years, I was really good in this league. I was, I can ride this wave and be, I could probably be a Hall of Famer still. Of course. But I want to continue to grow. And if I continue to grow, then our team automatically grows. You know, and I think J.T. and J.B. has done it. You know what I love more than the perfect assist? The Perfect Story.

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My only gripe with the Celtics sometimes is the discipline to get space, to find angles off the first action, setups on pick and rolls, to make sure they're getting downhill, touching the paint. They're so good that sometimes they think they settle. You think they get bored sometimes because they've been doing this shit so long. Like almost prisoners of their success. Yeah. They've been the finals, a bunch lately. They've won it.

They've had incredible regular seasons. You know, you know what it's like when you get successful teams. You know, it seems like sometimes, you know, it seems like they get bored. sometimes with the I don't want to say the process because they've I mean shit they are who they are and they've you know when you look at Taylor Brown they've this is years and years and years and years they've punched their 10,000 hours you know and but sometimes it seems like you know you know they get you know they get sometimes they get a little bored because how great they are right not only as those two as individuals but them as a team

and sometimes it looks like they get bored and but yeah I mean in a way I feel like that's part of why they got caught in those first two games against the Knicks, you know? Up 20, it's easy, you know what a sense? Then they stop maybe like the details, the spacing, going too soon or not waiting long enough and not getting downhill, not touching the paint, settling for longer jump shots. They're running out the other way. But like, that's just the story of their team. We know they have another gear. And then they show it in game three. Right. And so, and they showed it for three quarters of the first two games. So it's right there for them. But going back to playmaking, those guys

of both, Jalen Brown, too, has taken a jump as far as being able to play Cat and Malice read the defense. But you look around the league, look at some of these guys like Jalen Brunson, Shea. These guys are supposed to be point guards, but they're actually more like two guards in a sense. So it's funny how it's kind of, it's all

well, it's like they can of course make plays, but they're so talented at scoring their footwork, they're finding the body, getting in the line, whatever may be. It's just interesting how the shape of your initiation initiator like his profile can be anything from Jalen Brunson to Nicola Yokic nowadays right and that's what fascinates me about the game that's the beauty of the game

right there because you never know you never know until that player starts to shapes himself out right to what type of um I mean as a coach I mean obviously you know you've been there and done that but you if you get a you know a young Nicola Yokic or a young you know Jalen Brunson and when you get them it takes time to to see how they shape out to now be able to say oh this is how we're gonna play and this is what we need to build around these guys you know and the New York Knicks have built around Jalen Brunson on what what his style is you know gritty guys tough guys long-wing guys and that's allowed him to be special on what he does and like you said

being able to score the ball you know get to the free throw line you know he can he's a three-level score being able to get to the paint you know uses footwork things of that nature we always talk about guys who went to Villanova. That's one thing they're going to have and that's a great footwork. You're never going to be off balance. And the same thing,

well, like you're saying, like, you know, you know, Shay, you know, you're able to build, how do you build that and then you build around it? That's a great organization. That's a great coaching staff.

Something to be said about that, like simplifying the way we play. We play through this person. We support them with these type of players. You know, you're seeing obviously different shapes of the playmaker, but really what everyone wants to build around in the spacing.

Right. and guys that can guard multiple positions. You know, it's interesting. I still feel like, I don't know how Jalen does it, man. He, like, he's got so much responsibility. And they can't get Drew off him a lot late in games. They send up a screen, he needs Drew fights through. So he spends 12, 15 seconds of the shot clock trying to get Drew off him,

does it, and then he's got to go at him again, right? And it's like, man, I don't know how he's able to sustain that level of performance at his size with the best guy guarding him every night trying to make those plays. Multiple guys. Because Boston has multiple guys. Multiple, right? You know, you have, you know, you got, you know, Drew Holliday, who's dogging you all the way up the court. And then, you know, you're trying to run a pick and roll.

Now, you know, Jalen Brown switches off on you. And then you're trying to get another switch and Derek White's on you. You know, now, you know, at the end of the shot clock, you know, sometimes you have Al Horford closing out on you. And you can win the foot race, but the guy's still 16, 611. Right. Right. So, like. And you got all long wings around him that are taking up space.

And that makes it even more dynamic of why, you know, how, how, it just shows how much. great he is. It's also great stories, right? Like him, Shea, Nicole Okicich. Like when they came in the league, no one was thinking superstars. Well, no, I mean, Shea wouldn't be an OKC. Right. They knew this is what he was. You know, Dale and Bronson was still

be in Dallas. You know, it's like those are great stories where guys just like they believed in themselves. You know, Denver saw something in Nicola. For sure. Because at the same time, I believe Nerkich was there too. He was the first round pitch. He was the first round

Yeah, so they saw something in him and, obviously, they were fucking right. I mean, he forced their hand with his development skill. He's such a unique player, right? But I felt like it's interesting how the way the game's changed. Like even, like, let's go back to like Russell Westbrook and Gilbert Arenas. Well, in college, they weren't point guards, they weren't playmakers, they weren't making decisions. They were just great athletes.

They were trying to find themselves. They developed into guys that could make the. decision every time right and I think that those are guys that maybe we don't talk about as much but like they matriculated into that decision maker right and so we're seeing that now it's almost like that never happened in the old old days right like it was like this is what you are you play this position you slide into these five spots now it's like if a guy continues to develop he can break the first line of defense he's getting taking up real estate creating opportunities can he now solved by scoring and passing in those situations we're seeing so many guys become that

throughout their career. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of off topic a little bit, but it's definitely on topic of what we're talking about. Like, I remember watching, you know, NBA games when I was, like, teenager or maybe even younger. And it was almost like seeing Sam Perkins shoot a three. Right. It was wild. Was wild.

Right. See him a new bow shooter three was like, yeah. What's happening? Why is he 6-11, 7-6 shooting threes? It was like, people was looking at, like, looking at the screen. Like, oh my God, like, what is this? You know, and just to go back to what you're saying, you know, seeing guys like Russell Westbrook and, you know,

Gilbert Arenas, guys coming out of college, UCLA, Arizona, Gil came off the bench, you know. You know, Darren Collison was a starting point guard at UCLA before Russell even got an opportunity. But it, what you, when you talk about things that cannot be denied, right? You could, when they were on the court, Or you saw them, it was something, it was something that had,

when we talk about the it factor. Yeah. Gil had the it factor. It was like, oh shit, this guy is special. Every time Russ stepped on the court, oh, this guy's special. We've never seen anything like this. Like it's like a, soon as he gets on the course, a missile, you know, and that's just, that's the beauty of the game sometimes where you were able, like, those, I don't know,

I'm going to say diamond in the roughs. But, I mean, you look at Gil, I think it was a second round pick. Right. You know, to Golden State. Well, you said it. Like, nowadays, everyone's won and done. Right. He came off the bench in college, right?

So, like, it's just interesting how, and don't get me wrong, there was heliocentric players, you know, in different eras. Tiny Archibald. Yeah, for sure. Oscar Robertson, you know, I think then you get to magic and bird in different ways. But they weren't like, you know, it's just different how it's evolved. So it's like, it's just interesting how many guys now. Is it because we know more?

Is it player development? Is it so much based on personality? So many more guys are becoming these positionless players. Do you think like, I always think about like because it wasn't no social media back in obviously the 70s, the 80s, the 90s that we could have missed out on a lot of talent, you know, in towns that word of mouth wasn't big enough,

you know, or player wasn't heard about it. Nobody could, you know, get the word out. and we missed out on a Russell Westbrook, you know, that. There's no question. You know. There's no question. I always think about that type of stuff. It's, well, that's not just social media, but YouTube.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Technology has allowed the world to get so small, so much information. Like, you know, think about it, like Ronnie growing up, could kind of see whatever you wanted to see on his phone. Right. I could see how we work out, obviously, he had access to you, you know, he could see what everyone does, hear from everyone's opinion on this person.

Back in those days, you kind of learn through your high school coach. You're a summer coach, your AAU coach, and stories. Happened to get invited to like a summer camp or something. You see something? Yeah.

Like it was just different. I mean, I remember growing up, like trying to get better, just recording college games, VHS tapes, dating myself, but like recording games. And like taking stuff off guys who never really, you know, were great. Or taking the one-legged shot off Pat Ewing.

Right, right, right. People don't think about the runner, Pat Ewing, but he would roll across the lane go off his right foot, shoot with his right, that became something I had to do because I had to put people off balance. So, you know, nowadays, people see that it's everything you ever want to see on your phone. Right. You can see it all. And you can hear about it too. Explain this to me. Someone can explain it to you. Almost too much. Right. Almost too much. Almost too much. So it's, it's, I think it's, the MBA is like a tech industry in that respect. Like most nowadays

is that information is just becoming so readily accessible. It's changing so quickly. Even the micro adjustments you know I think it it's that's one of the issues I think we have a little bit with the game is trying to explain to fans all these little micro changes that are happening you know within a series or within a month or half a season a season two three years it's all changing pretty quickly but it looks similar we're listening fans I want you guys to know that we're listening we always want to make sure that the game of basketball is viewed from y'all point of view and y'all love the product like you know we're always trying to figure got a way to get better.

But the game changes, you know, you know, the conversation on, you know, I wish the game was like this compared to, like, it's too far to even be thinking about those type of things. It's impossible. It's impossible. Everything changes. Yeah. You know, everything changes. Well, think about some of those factors in that, too. Like, so, you know, when I came in the league, you had four coaches.

Now you have nine or ten on every staff, right? Sometimes it's more coaches on the bench than players. Right. I don't know. It's two rows. Two rows. You know, now you have five guys typically in a video room. And they have to be able to play with the guys that don't play.

They have to be able to cut tape for every coach and player. Right. Then you have analytics departments, you know. Some could be four or five people deep, right? So there's so much information that, you know, back in the day you had a trainer, a head trainer and assistant trainer. And then a strength coach got introduced, right? Now your performance team could be 10 people, you know, sports scientists, physical therapists,

strengthening coaching coaches, you know, everything. So everything is continuing. evolving and so I think it's it's inevitable it's going to change it's going to change quick and they're going to be sometimes really micro little changes because there are so many brains on this every day right yeah absolutely absolutely I mean the game is beautiful man it is you know and we have to just evolve with it you know just like how we do in everyday life we have to evolve with life we also have to involve with sports the sport that we love whatever that sport is and that's the that's the beauty of being able to understand and respect

and appreciate where the game come from and also be able to understand and appreciate where it is today as well. That's right. Well said. I see. I love that. I was beautiful. It made me think whenever you guys were talking about, just how you don't have access.

That's what made Don Nelson so awesome, was that he was willing to go look in Europe. And, like, no one else would go look in Europe. It's crazy. Yeah, well, it also... Yeah, that's crazy. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, that's crazy.

There was no value in it perceived, right? Right, right, right. Because it's like, why would I go over there? We have the best players in the world here. Right. Now we see there's players everywhere. To your point about missing out on guys. Right.

I'm a big believer that there's talent everywhere. Like Bill Gates has become Bill Gates because he grew up near one of the only mainframes in the United States apparently or, you know, like a hub of the early internet, right? Like not saying he's not a brilliant guy, but he happened to live right there. Who was to say that a kid in Mississippi

or Mexico City that didn't have the same access couldn't have had the same power? Similar to basketball, right? Like, who knows if a kid grew up playing and he just didn't have that one person who believed or he didn't have that coach that really knew the game or the family dynamic didn't allow it, right? There's talent everywhere.

Just trying to give people an opportunity is almost as important as the talent. Yeah, for sure. And then I think the other part is like, you know, I'm obviously older than you and my generation was slightly, not that much different because you didn't have social media

when you were in high school, did you? No. So, you know, thinking in that way, like, what did we do? We went out and played. That's it. So we learned through the hours through trial and error

more so than technology. Yeah, for sure. The phone. Yeah, for sure. The commercialization. One of the basketball trainers and shit like that growing up. Get your own rebound. Get your own rebound.

Spend the ball out, turn around, jab, do your jab steps. One dribble, shoot, one dribble, shoot, two dribble shoot. Mike and drill. Right. And that doesn't mean that's better. Everything's getting better. It's just a matter of finding the balance. Right.

Like where can we add some of the things we learned in the past back into the flow of information. But man, that's why I like your point. I love the way you ended that with just, the game is beautiful man like I know a lot of players my generation are critical of the game I watch these playoff games man I love the game I love the NBA I love the little

battles the chess matches the randomness but with principles you know to me it's in a beautiful place and I love the growing up I mean shit they just the older generation they make you not want to love

the game that I grew up watching like I grew up loving a Knicks versus Bulls playoff series or a Pacer's versus Knicks playoff series like I love that or even like you know obviously I'm from a small town outside of Cleveland but watching the cast get an opportunity to play against

MJ didn't never see it live obviously but everybody was excited about it seeing you know Charles Barkley playing Phoenix like take his town as a Phoenix and help them get to the finals was like so fucking dope I mean, Kevin Johnson, Dan Marley Like, you know, those guys are really good players

But they weren't like top of the line guys It got them to the finals And then like the generation They talk so much shit about the game today And it makes you go back and watch the game back then And it makes you not even want to appreciate it no more Like I did when I was like Right

It's a great point You go back and watch now It doesn't feel as good as it did at the time It does not It was great. It was great. It was great. It was great. Or, you know, these guys say or say, we can't be friends. You're friends with that. Where are you smiling on the court? And then someone goes to find a clip of like, you standing next to this guy during the finals smiling and laughing. It's like, what the fuck? Can we just be honest? Just be honest. Like, I don't understand.

Memories are fallible. Right. Memories are not perfect. Yeah, if you want your movie, they write their own script. Right, right, right. And you know what? maybe we should flip it and be appreciative that I should you know I'm an old head but that that the old heads are bitter and pissed you don't even try it don't even try the bitter and do not try to be competitive do not try to be the CEO and president of the old head committee don't do it but maybe we should say they're going to string you out right you're too positive you're too appreciative maybe I am yes you are you're too positive or too appreciative to for for But maybe it's also cool that they're like, that's who they are, the competitive dudes.

And they can't let go. And that's what made them great. And so although it can be frustrating at times and we have to put it in perspective, it's also great that that's who they are. That's how they got where they got and they won't let go. That's all right. That's all part of this story. All right.

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