Mind the Game - Kevin Durant: Part 1

Episode Date: July 1, 2025

We have a very special episode in store for you all, as Mind the Game welcomes NBA legend Kevin Durant to the show. In this episode, LeBron James, Steve Nash and KD discuss a ton of topics including the evolution of Kevin Durant's game over the years. They also discuss the beauty of the modern NBA and the Champion Oklahoma City Thunder. And finally, KD talks about his time in OKC and how he believes his generation paved the way for the current iteration of the Oklahoma City Thunder.Part 2 drops one week from now where KD and Steve discuss their time in Brooklyn. You DO NOT want to miss that conversation. Thank you all for listening and we hope you enjoy Mind the Game! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Live in here today, it must be a special day. We don't ever show on. Oh. We come to one session, first season. Welcome back, mind the game. We're back, baby. Opening bottles. You know it.

We have the privilege of one of the greatest players in NBA history here today. No question. Welcome. Appreciate you. Thank you. Appreciate you. Appreciate you.

Yes, sir. I think, I mean, while I'm opening this wine, I think the best way to start is like, you guys got anything you guys want to talk about maybe. So we're getting f***ed up. Yeah, you're like, you said I got enough wine? This is the place to do it. This will be the place.

I'm only just started there, you know. No, I mean, for, uh, there we go, poor, poor of that. But, you know, LeBron is the greatest, the leading score of all time in history. But I think even you would admit there's things about Kevin's game you wish you had. Yeah, for sure. One of the most smoothest, most efficient scores we've, maybe we've ever had. Like, is there anyone that can do it at every level? not to the capacity he's done it

and I was reading the stat earlier the fact that he hasn't I want to speak like you're not here but it's so great I like to do it sometime thank you brother he hasn't shot under 50% since like 2012

and in a league that doesn't talk about efficiency enough because I'm one of those efficiency guys like I hate going out there just chucking up shots or you know looking at the box score and I was maybe 8 for 23 or 9 for 25 or 6 for 18 like you're going to have those nights for sure yeah you know

but for the majority of the season like being efficient you know it's something I've always prided myself on and this guy is when it comes to three-level score three-pointers mid-range below the barry payton area below the malone area and finishing it's um we have We haven't, we haven't had a score as equipped as, as Katie in our league, ever. I appreciate that. Ever. Yeah, I mean, add to it, pick and roll, with the ball, without the ball. Yeah.

Catch and go. Transition with the ball. Catch and shoot, off the move, pin downs, nail. You know, literally there isn't, I don't think a spot, an action, or a style of play that you couldn't. Be yourself, be efficient. And is that something like, Katie, like you, over the years, obviously, I've seen you continue to get better and, like,

you're better with your game. Like, you know, when you first came in, you wasn't much of a pick and roll guy, you know. Just a natural score, you know, catching goals. Always had to bounce to your game, obviously. But I feel like over the last, like, you know, five to seven years, you know, you start handling the ball of picking rolls, making decisions, making reads, you know,

and still being able to be efficient-ass score, the dynamic score. you've been like it was it was that conscientious with you or just like you know I want to continue to expand my game that was the main thing wanting to expand my game early on when I came into the league my first if I could think about my first 20 games in the league I felt like I was just catching and shooting a lot of it was catching shoot threes catching shoot mid-range I was playing fast so you felt it was happening so quick you just felt comfortable rising up that's all I that's that was the that was my game just shooting you know what I'm saying at that point so

That's what I, you know, fell back on when nothing else work. I get stopped if, you know, I'm not strong enough yet. That guy hold me up. I'm just going to shoot over you. And then I didn't shoot well my first two months, three months, my first six months of the season. I think I started to figure out the pace of the game, understanding the pick and roll.

I was getting more pin downs. And when I was coming off picking rows early in the season, I was just shooting. And then I'm looking at my teammates' faces. I'm like, damn, he was open. You know what I'm saying? So, like, I just started to understand my teammates more in the game more, and I wanted to be trusted in every situation on the offensive side of the ball.

Coach said, I didn't want a coach to come back to the huddle. Steve, no, what size do you want to know? It's your team. Coach the team, whatever side you want to call this player on. I got to be ready to come off this on either angle and shoot from either side. So I never liked being limited that way. So I was wanting to just have a use me in any way that he wanted me. And you're on the floor.

Yeah, so I didn't want him to feel eliminated with me. So that was always been my thing. I think it's funny he said that. I was one of the conversations we had previously about coming to the sideline and a coach is afraid to flip the play because he knows that certain guys can't run it on the opposite side. And I attest to that. And you can get in practice too. Like we can run the same play over and over and over.

And if the coach say, okay, let's run it from the. the left side we've been running from the right side guys like three dudes are lost you guys like what are we doing you know what the main guy then the man cheers oh absolutely appreciate you and then it's like that's the best player or the most efficient score or the you know who got the best matchup whoever you call him to play for it's just like when coach says oh he can't we can't do this because he not strong going left I thought he can't go right. That just always did something to me.

It was tough for me to go left sometimes and pull up for the jump shot, especially early on in my first few years. And I think I started to understand the footwork, the balance of what it takes to shoot going right from inside the paint, free throw line extended, Carlos 3, NBA 3. And that's why I, in that small detail

is the reason I think my game is, you know, around it. You prefer going left. Actually, now I do But you started going right Yeah But this is actually That's interesting to me Right?

Because it bothered you That you had one side That was weak and the other But statistically He preferred And prolific going left But actually statistically As good or better going right

Yeah Now sometimes that's because people know you want to go left Exactly But it also proves like It's just a habit to go left You just prefer I used to play that way too

I play out of a hezzi to the left I could still do it to the right But I was just comfortable Do you feel like you got more leverage and your body going left for some reason? Why like that? You know, this is a weird one to say, but like when I was in the 10th grade,

I'd spray my left ankle. As a right-handed player, the left-handed jumper, I didn't want to stop playing, so I played limping around for six months. That ankle's never quite been the same. So I think, like, pushing off my right became my de facto thing.

That makes sense. And so I could do the rhythm going to the right. But, you know, to take it once a farther about me, but when I went to Phoenix in 2004, that summer I was like, I can't play this way anymore where I just go all the way left and pull up right. And it bothered me. So I spent that summer saying, like, I have to figure this movement pattern out, like left hard pull up. And it took a summer of like every day trying to get the footwork, the balance, the stability. That sounds like you kind of did that early in your career. Yeah, I mean, it's crazy you said that because when

I got to go to state and we started working out more, you told me that. And it's always stuck in my mind that like, yeah, the defense note, if you're going left, most of the time you're going all the way to the cup. So that one, two, dribble pull up going left has been a staple for me, but it's more so about the pickup of the ball, you know what I'm saying, going left.

Like sometimes I try to pick the ball up right here like my normal shot, they swiping that down. Instead of, we did this a lot too. I start, you know, changing my pickups and I'm shooting the ball this way now. So a lot of that stuff is just, just adjustments to how the physical the defense was

and you know me just wanting to get shots off. But this, you make it sound simple. The reason he's able to do that, like take the ball up in different areas is because especially at your size your balance is so good. Your feet are so good. That's where it all starts

for him. He gets on balance so like he still has legs under him so it doesn't matter if he brings it up normal. He brings it up here. He brings it up there. He's always still got legs to get under his and get that thing up in the air. Those are the little bits that people don't understand. You have to work every day at getting down,

getting deeper, getting in a position to have your legs under you. Yeah, I mean, just being able to understand the power that you have under you and your legs and letting that flow through your whole body to get to your jump shot. It takes a while for you to understand how much power you really have, but the lower you play,

the harder you dribble the ball back up into your pocket, all that small stuff matters. small stuff matters if you're going to be a good shooter right it makes sense i mean all the detail that you're talking about is you know when we're talking about efficiency you know and it's only been a small select fuel guy to do this NBA history the the 90 50 40 club or 50 40 90 however you want to break it down you've done it twice you've done it twice and it was actually 10 years apart from when you did i think the first time you did it was in 13 i believe the last time was 23 yeah but you want to know who's actually the leader in the 50 40 90 club

I think this guy was a four four and I feel like I miss like three you know what that's funny we were talking probably so we were talking about it my first year with the Lakers here at the end I was fucking a hundred years old but no offense but I think I missed it by a layup like a one field goal and that stains every time and I think earlier in my career, I missed it. I got shot 8, 97 from the line. And you think back as like one or two free throws, after a whole season?

That's crazy. So I don't think about the four times doing it. I think about the two times. Right there. How many more times were you close to that you can remember or off the top? I think it was another time in Brooklyn where I was like 39% from the three

going into the last game. I had to make like four out of six. I was like one for eight. I was just, man. And I was thinking about it too I wanted it so bad And it's just like That's another part of the mental game

You know you can get in your own way Yeah for sure Thinking too much about stuff like that So yeah I remember that one time in Brooklyn I think it was another time in OKC Where I think it was the free throws I might have missed

I was like 88 87 for the year And I tricked off For a shooter your caliber The free throws you crazy That drives you crazy I think we might have talked I was like 84 this year, like 83, 82 at one point this year. I was just, and that's been bothering me mentally.

Want to kick the ball in the gym when he doesn't read them. More than anything, man. Like, being over 90% is key for me. But so mid-80s is just not it. Yeah, I can relate with that. What's your career high? You had it from the free this year? Yeah, I think I was career high this year.

I was almost at 80. Yeah, 79, 6 or something. I'm rounding my shit off. 80, but the three ball was at what? My career for my three was 41, I think last year. I think last year I was in the 40s. You definitely second half for your career in three balls. Yeah, yeah.

Just being more efficient. Just being more efficient with it too. I think you're many too this year. Instead of even more, I feel like you always hit it, but I think you went to it more this year. And you shot it from D for this year. You think so? Yeah, I think so.

But it's something I still, to be honest, honest, it's something I haven't been able to master in my career. I work on it. Improved a lot, though. Improved, yeah. But like, you know, like when you talk about going left and then going right and being efficient, like, you know, going left with my MIDI, I feel really effective with that. I feel like I got great balance with it.

I feel like, you know, like you're talking about the speed of how you pick the ball up after it comes off the ground and you know where the pocket is. You know what I'm saying? You know exactly how to get it back to that pocket, you know, and I know I can go literally, I can go straight up. up and down going left I can I can fade out you know it's just all the powers all the powers over there going right has always been a little like you know sometimes my balance is off sometimes I don't know if I should fade on the shot or if I should go straight up and down and it's always kind of fucked with me mentally even though I work on all of them you know but when you you know obviously when you get into the fray you know you don't want the you know the defense

to dictate what you want to do obviously but it's like getting that that that that pocket that you was saying like you know the one person that that is unbelievable going right with his pocket no matter where it is like Chris Paul like he he can yeah yeah he can yeah he can do he does he do all this without even dribbling and keep it and then just and just rock you can shoot it from triple threat or off the dribble yeah and he also gives him that natural little fade yeah yeah I can relate to because you need that few little inches to get it over the size right right right right right This episode is sponsored in part by American Express. American Express knows that for an obsessive basketball fan like me, the playoffs mean a lot of travel time.

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You'll find gripping titles that keep you guessing, exclusive Audible Originals, and bestsellers that hook you from the first minute. Ready for your next great adventure? Sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash game and discover what lies beyond the edge of your seat. Do you feel like you was, if you take mid-range, you'd settle it, like, throughout your career? Yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean, especially my, okay, my first 14, 15 years, like, there was no need for me to take a lot of mid-range, bro. I saw a clip of him when I was doing research for this, take off from like, I don't know, man.

like near the free throw line and it like the velocity he was traveling it was yeah i say some clips too but that come that also important that also comes like my little league coach too like my little league coach and high school coach they always talk about don't settle yeah like stop settling like and then you get people in the crowd who obviously don't know basketball like we know basketball and they tell you to dunk everything dunk everything get to the whole dunk everything By the way, it's people in NBA crowds to do that, still. Dunk everything. They get disappointed when you go.

Yeah, so, you know, but I felt like putting pressure, you know, when I entered the league, you know, in 03, you know, it was, I definitely shot a little bit more mid-range my rookie year because. No spacing. There's no spacing. Exactly. I was coming off-floppy. Like, my first basket ever scored in the NBA is a, is awful floppy action.

The broad and floppy is hilarious. Fade to the corner shooting a jumper from the short corner. I feel like that first stint in Cleveland, like, the J was, because it was hitting that, all net. A lot of your Jays were hitting on net. And then you had the confidence to shoot the, like you said, you had to take them shots. But once you got the, Miami, I just feel like the floor was so much space with Bob shooting the three. Yeah, yeah.

You have more shooters around. Just like, why I settled? When we played, Joe, I'm like, yeah, he can, I don't want him to give him this MIDI, but, like, there's no way I could just stop this bad. what's you know I'm saying get to that momentum you know so I understand it's a mental that mental part of like what do I do especially we got so much responsibility yeah for sure as scores as initiators and it's tough to figure out exactly you know how you're gonna approach it sometimes but like that goes to

both of you being about efficiency yeah you don't feel good if you have a not high volume night didn't make shots that's why you guys prepare the way you prepare take care but I mean that there's a stat here 2012 21, 22, we were together. 58% from 3 to 10 feet, 58% from 10 to 16 feet. 16 feet to the 3 point line, 71%. Unless the Googles are wrong.

71% from 16 to 3. Like, that's... I mean, that's insane. I don't even realize that. But 10 to 16 at 58? That's not in an empty gym. Right, right, right. Like, that's a lot of homework.

It's a few guys in our league. That's a few guys. Not a lot. It's a few guys in our league that you believe every time they shoot the ball is going on. And Katie's one of those guys.

It is. That's a lot of pressure, boy. No, it is. It is. Listen, like, when you shoot the ball, when Steph shoot the ball, if Steph get a look,

you just, you don't think he's going to miss. I think Shay is at that point, too. Shea's at that point, too, especially in the middies. Every time we shoot, I don't think it's going on. Yeah, especially in,

right, he's fucking. his rhythm right now is so good quietly in the mid-range I think Kauai's like that I was like that too I was like that for sure Kauai's like that too sure I don't care he missed 10 in a row he every shot the next one's yeah yeah especially in that mid-range area even his three his threes his threes is I think his mid-range is above his threes but he's still a good shooter too right yeah yeah but that mid-range area I mean there's certain guys that raise up and get to their spot you know exactly that they planned on doing that shade one of those guys in today's league I even like um

throughout the play. I even like what Julius Randu did from the mirror this playoffs. The best I've seen to play. That's the best I see him. Shoot the ball, confidence he has. So I think the mirror range game is coming back for sure. So that's a big old conversation right there. You know, because analytics, all these analytic departments right now is saying layups and threes, free throws, layups, and threes. But we're watching the MVP of our league right now pretty much dominating through the mirror range. You know, so, you know, and in the postseason where the game changes, The physicality ramps up.

You're allowed to bump and grab and hold a little bit more. You know, like, ultimately, it's like, get to your spot and get a bucket. You know, you don't have time to be thinking about, okay, well, if I don't shoot this three, you know, the analytic department coming downstairs the next day saying, okay, well, we took too many tools. Like, this is, we're gonna die, you know?

Again, I understand, and I understand the balance between having to get up of threes but I believe you can't tell you Luca or Austin Reeves don't play your game and take those shots in the mid-range or just put just be you certain guys though no for sure you know what I'm saying who need to rely on the system of the team who need who can't create on their own who can't create those shots on their own they need to shoot more threes so I remember he was in the game against Cleveland and George's knee and he like to talk a lot of shit I love Georgia's but he talked a lot of and he telling me like I'm I

had a couple of mid-rangees in a row we did like 15 like you need to shoot more three I said no these dudes around me need to shoot more threes I need to play my game you know what I'm saying because if I get into this paint and because y'all can collapse on his mid-range and I kick out to one of them I'm expecting them to shoot the three not dribbling into a mid-range like that don't make no sense but the best players on the team you can't turn them into that you're exactly right so We did a whole episode on this. The mid-range has never been more important. It's just, it has to come from the right dudes.

Exactly. The court is spaced now by the role players. Exactly. What do you think they're trying to take away? Treason lay-up. So the star has to be able to make mid-range shots or else the team's not going to be able to score in a playoff situation.

They have to be able to loosen the defense takes with theirs. So I think the analytics community would agree with that too. Yeah, they would. It's really just we don't want players X, Y, and Z taking a bunch of mid-range. I mean, because the mid-range, I believe, is if you can't find a good shot, we should look for the good shots early, the threes. Attack the pain. They tacked the pain.

Try to get lay-ups, try to get threes. But when it's five to six seconds on the clock, get a ball to the best player. And if he shoot a mid-range at that point, then he's shoot a mid-range. But we're not going to waste the clock trying to look for a three, two seconds on the clock, and we're giving it to a no disrespect. Dorian Finney Smith with two seconds on the clock to make a three. That's not what we, or voice O'Neill, that's not, I mean, they can hit it for sure, but that's not sustainable offense for us going forward.

So another thing you want you're also saying is like you pass up a good mid-range shot to get a worse shot. Exactly. So there's a balance there to be. So I want to touch on the topic because, you know, you've been in a lot of different situations. Like you come into the league, you know, like you said, we were using Seattle early on. Then with, you know, your early days, you said, I was just shooting a bunch of catch-a-shoe two. touch the two threes.

You know, that was my game. That's what I was comfortable with. The league was a little bit more physical. Probably a lot of twos. Yeah, a lot of twos, running floppy action, things of that nature. And obviously, you grew into your own, you know, in OKC days. You know, you start to, you know, this is how I'm going to make my mark, you know, MVP of the league, doing your things.

You know, how was the transition, though, when you went to Golden State to now playing in their, you know, split game action, you know, let's get the ball moving. You still having a freedom to do what the hell you do, but was it how much of a, you know, Adjustment wasn't for you? It was pretty easy because up until I say James got traded so 2013 to 2016

I feel like those were the only years I was playing like point forward in my whole life the rest of the time I'm playing off my teammates I might mix up a little get off the rebound and push and make a play

but for the most part I've been playing off my teammates up until then it's to that whole time period so it was easy for me to come off a pin down it's hard for me to have to dribble through

three or four guys and pull up over two dudes with a fade away. Like I want, like you said, we want to be efficient. Playing off your team, man, that's the easiest way to be efficient. I was getting more backdoor cuts, more transition layups, on top of the ISOs, on top of the catch and shoot three. So my game was way more well-rounded and scoring, and it was easier. And that's way more efficient that way.

But I always knew how to play with my teammates, play off my teammates. And the art of scoring is getting the easy points. I always knew that. especially in transition. It's interesting you think about that Hardin trade. It's kind of a decision of the salary cap. Since surge, kind of a stretch four or five, James Harden. And James goes on to be one of the best players of all time.

How do you feel looking back? I know it's easy now to be like, well, yeah, we lost James Hardin. It's a different era. I mean, I think after a team that, I think we over, I think we exceeded expectations with that team. And when you reach the finals and you go through a run like that so quick, I don't think a GM or owner was ready for that.

You know, so you're expecting the team that's 22, 23 to, you know. So you sped up the timeline too fast. You sped up the timeline. All of us, you know, each individual player. Serge, you didn't know, like, he came out of nowhere. He came out of being the best shot block in the league. I'm averaging 30.

He got 21 years old. Russell is 22 years old as an all-star. six man at 20, like, so we exceeded the timeline, so they wasn't ready for that. And I don't believe, that's just my theory. I don't know exactly what Sam was thinking or the owner, but my theory is that I don't think they were ready exactly for us to be contenders every year. So since then, since we reached the finals, you're supposed to upgrade and fine-tuned and make changes around instead of, you can't just pull it up.

One of the key figures of your team, you know, off the team and expect. respect us to continue on what we was doing. So I just think they were kind of shocked that how fast we, how good we got so fast. And, you know, sometimes you get confused. And then on top of that, Sam Pressy was probably, what, 30 something

years old? He was young. Everybody was young, trying to figure stuff out, trying to understand what this landscape was. It was just, yeah, it was just, but it was, it was beautiful, yeah, it was too fast. It was just, we were ahead of our time. Everything happened too quickly. Yeah, because you think about it, like,

went from like coming in the league you're like I can't do anything I was going to jump rise up and shoot to second and MVP voting at 21 come on man first team on NBA at 21 like doing things at 20 20 21 not just me but everybody on our team on smaller different skills sure even our coaches he was Scott Brooks that was his first he was a coach of the year you know I'm saying so everybody was doing things I didn't and Scott was our interim so I didn't you know probably didn't think that Scott was going to be there that long after being an interim, you know, so we all exceeded expectations and you need a lot, you know, you got to spend money if you want to be in contention every year. I don't think they was ready for that just yet. So, but that prepared them for what they got now. I was just going to say, right, he's getting a chance to run it back. Exactly. He's got this incredible plan.

He's been obviously one of the top GMs in league for a while. Exactly. But he's got this war chest too. And people I think are, like you hear it around the deadline. people like just make a big trade and he's like patient man here's my I'd like to get your thoughts on this okayc wins this year

it's a problem for the league yeah it is it's a problem for the league those guys are all young dudes like there's few teams that would have to make big upgrades to compete on a year to year basis with this team for the next four five six seven years yeah the only thing okay see you got to worry about is the

cap are they going to the second apron are they going to go into the apron and all that stuff true but even with that they have so many picks that they can try to use that versatility to stay under the second apron and still be just a lot of but it comes down to two two guys like for i mean three guys the rest of these dudes they can be interchangeable you know like shade's going to be he going to be the rest of his career what is jela williams and chat going to be you know what i'm saying

of course they're playing great right now but those three guys got to keep you i mean shay's already at that level but those two guys got to keep getting better i mean that's just the the facts of it will just be more consistent right and i think i think they will but that's really what it is for them i mean the cop the salary i think they'll pay for sure yeah they know they know they got a great team and something special ahead of but more than anything those two guys got to keep stepping up and become perennial all-stars doubt no doubt all-stars every year without the the benefit of having a good team right there's 71 team gets the all-stars right you just got to be an all-star flat-out because you're better

than everybody yeah and also too the last thing too I mean yeah they're going to be great for years to come but also too like you know the now you go from you know doing the hunting to now being a hunted as well if they take if they win it all yeah it's a different dynamic that as well I mean we've both been there understanding like you know once you win it you know because you've been trying to get there so you know everything is geared to we want to be the next champion we want to be the next champion and then when you get there now everybody else is all 29 teams is now like how do we do throw on them so it's a different mindset as well and to see let's see how they if they were to win it you know don't want to you know

completely agree but on the flip side they give away games currently like they have a great chance when jennett they've given away games and especially they won't give away in the future i don't think no i think they're going to continue to hunt everybody i mean that's what they identity has been. You think that's their landscape. That's what their identity is been since. You know what I'm saying? This has been cultivating since

Shay got traded there for PG. All of them do's been there. Door, I mean, Jay the Wins came a couple years after that, but he'd been there. You know what I'm saying? So those guys got a solid core dudes and their foundation comes from.

That crusoe heart's thing. So, you know, and I like the coach's mentality. He don't say, he'll be over there chilling. He don't say nothing. He'd just. He'd be over there chilling.

He'd be over there chilling. It's a stoic individual. I just think they got a beautiful thing going. And I think that what we created early on in OKC has just prepared everybody in OKC for what this is like. You know what I'm saying? We've all learned from that situation. Handled it the second time around. Yeah.

It's just, and you know, it's spent nine, ten years almost. So they've been through different iterations of the Thunder, Mello, C. N. P.G. Then you got C.P. You know, so they've been through different iterations. with great players, and they understand developing a great player from 19-year-old until being an NDP.

Drafted up, trading for them. Developing. So they didn't have been through everything. Being a, even though we were the Seattle Sonics, we were an expansion franchise. So, you know, they understand everything from building up from the ground up to where they are now. So I, I mean, we all could see this coming. Yeah. Yeah.

what we had a talk recently about where the game's going a little bit I'd love to hear your perspective but the finals to me is a little bit of a look into possibilities okay see defensively you know pack the paint team long athletes keep you out of the rim flying back out at shooters with athleticism switchable players you know on the other hand you have Indiana who plays like this beautiful chaos where from the free throw line up there's there's blur screens there's pitches guard to guard pitches there's flares while an action's going 21 on this side flare on that side all this kind of madness you know we've become accustomed to trying to keep the floor space they're flying guys in and out to try to move the help no yeah tell me a little bit about where

you think the game is going from a profile of player but also like strategically beside both sides of the ball yeah I mean strategically as a team we've come into a organizing randomized random basketball. I always say jazz. We can play off each other, right? On both ends, because you look at O'KC on their defense. I watched Shade, or let's say Jaylor Williams get beat off the dribble, and then here Lou Dort in the corner, he's just, you know, in regular help.

But if he get bit off that dribble, he's coming over to take that drive, and then here come Jay La Williams to the way. It's going straight corner. So they do that all around the court, and then on top of that, they got good one-on-one defense, but they are in tandem. regardless without even being a scheme it's just natural for them at that end reading each other exactly not every team can do no it's hard to do that which is the same thing that indy is doing offensive exactly right and that's how i feel the game is flowing because indy will i haven't seen is 77

from there and then like you said quick action pitch up get it back slip out big set of screen but When this bringing it out the neck, inbound on the ball, walking it up, all I really say from them is 77. And then driving kick, picking pop. Get into the blender. Just get into the blender early. So I think that's what the league is going, where it's like, about to run three-pinned-down.

Like, this guy not by the run from the wing, under three-pin-downs underneath the baseline, while nobody else moving, and you go, like, the defense not letting you do that. They're not letting you do that. It's got to be running. random it has to be practiced though every day that random that's what fans i don't think i understand why aren't they running anything well if they run and they're switching everything you're back to is exactly right okay so how do they know what to do why don't they we do it at five on oh every

day talk through it see on the film what you just sit what was your decision here yeah i think it's it's great coaching too like you know rick knows his personnel his personnel how his team is built is not isolation guys that can beat you off the bounce every possession or it's not you going to be, PPR is going to be so low. You know, he knows that if we could get one trigger, which is now creates the blender, now that works for our team. You know, it's not going to be

run a 77, okay, now they've been switched, okay, everybody gets flat, let me back up, back up, back up, and then try to go ISO. Yeah, we know Tyrese, Tyrese can beat the five off the dribble. We know that. Benedict Mathrim, we know he can do it from time to time. But for their team,

for them, for their PPR to be 120, like we've been seeing, it's not going to be a steady diet of isolation no matter which action they run so like you're saying the blur screens the touch screens the flare screens on the opposite side the pitch where you know we're running a DHO slipout

you know the short rolls to the pops of Miles Turner like they they're and it's it is so not random right everyone thinks it's practice it's practice but it's just like it's organized chaos organized chaos

Organized chaos. It's not scripted in the game, but in practice, like you could tell that they, on the same page, it's almost like nonverbal. And you see, and, you know, being in the finals, a lot of times, you're not talking a lot to your teammates. You know what you're supposed to be doing. You're out there really focused on being the best that you can

and being at their highest level. These guys don't feel like they haven't communicated, you know, dialogue, obviously, but they're not walking each other through everything. They're just reading off, you know, react off one another and that's from good coaching good practicing holding each other accountable throughout the season watching film like all that stuff matters that the outside world you know doesn't understand they just like well they do it's chaos can't be in and book and i just roll the balls out y'all just go for it luca and i'm supposed to just beat everybody because y'all just got

that talent's like this is you got to cultivate a lot of stuff from day one to training camp and on who you want to be and you can tell that these both of these teams been doing that for two, three years. Yeah, for sure. I was going to say a big underrated part of their offensive identity is they change ends so quick, they create mismatches off the change ends.

Fast. Even on a make. Yeah, exactly. Seaclo's down on the guard. Oh, we go to the post. Oh, we got the center up on Halley or bring him into the action. What I also like is like,

if Hallie gets the center, they don't always spread. They keep playing. Next guy comes in. They're not afraid. They want you to make mistakes. They want it to keep moving. Because I think it's the ethos.

It slows them down. and now they're not playing their game if they say, get spread, let me ice them. You always can go, but we're not going to hold the game up. I mean, just to piggyback what you just said, Steve,

like, you know, you get the five switched on to, you know, how he knows he can beat him. You know, he knows he has the advantage, I would say. You know,

but how many times is the five guarding the ball when a pick and roll happens? You don't know how to look over that pick and roll. He doesn't know what's going on. You run past him, touch him on the hip,

he's like, what the hell's going on? They fuck up the confusion. And we saw that in the Knicks series. We saw a lot of Cat. They was doing that and Cat was just back up and nobody's in the ball and Hallie's shooting the three.

And to add to it, they'll bring even the three in like, you know, it might be Ananobe, a great defender. Right. But he's got Kat. So they might just blur screen with Anatobe. He's like, well, I got to help. Right, right, right.

And then Nees Smith standing wide open because they're just creating confusion. They're going to, if you are not aware on the defensive side of the ball, they're going to attack you from the first possession on it to the last. And I think that's the new brand of ball.

It's like, who is the weak guy out here? And it's not just the guy that can't guard one-on-one or more. It's like you can't guard a pick-and-roll. You don't know how to guard a pin down. We're attacking every single part of your defense. Yeah, exactly. We're going to want to pick-and-rolls opposite of you, so you be the tag guy, but we know you ain't going to tag.

Everything. And the league is about exposing now. Yeah, but I would also add to it, like, we were exposing the guy on the ball. Now I think these teams are starting to expose the help by moving the help. We'll cut and replace. We'll blur screen, we'll flare on the weak side. So the help's moving instead of the help. We like on offensively, we've liked for a period of time here, just to know where the guys are. Just stay space, be in your spot. Now they're getting smarter. They're getting

better at scheming. They're in the gaps. They're rotating. They're reading off each other. So then when you start moving around, whose help is that? Right? So I think that's the era we're starting to get into offensively. Would you say defenses have gotten better? More creative? not in the sense because I don't want to say more creative because it's a switch league now. Everyone wants to switch and to be honest, the only way

that you could just like switch is you have you have to have the personnel to do it you know, but I think the creativity is happening like you know, and New York did a good job it is like sometimes when Jalen Brunson was getting switched off on Si Ancombe they was doing a great job of kicking him out. Yeah, you know

especially on the post. I think that's been communicated a lot better like kicking a small guy out telling him to go weak side corner or find somebody on the weak side because there's not too many guys that can actually make the pass once the switch happens he rolls him down and he can fire it weak side

to get the shot. It's not many guys in our league that can make that. So I think as far as the creativity in that range has gotten better but defense has always boiled down to just like fucking talking. You can make up a lot of shit by just talking through it too. I would almost flip it.

It's not the defense, maybe defensive involved not about offenses have challenged them more. Yeah, it's challenged them more. Yeah, they're challenged them more. Definitely. New solutions, playing fast. Yeah. Shooting the ball from farther out like,

you know, you watch clips from 15, 20 years ago, like almost everybody's inside the three-point line. Everybody, yeah. 15, 20 years ago, shit, I was in the league. I thought you're about to say some shit about the 90s. Only one of us was in the league. They're down with the 90s. That team, that 90s bled into the early 2000.

It did. It did. It did. It was probably one three-point. shoot on their team bro. By way if that like if that's why that's why Sacramento was so damn good. They had a lot

early on. I had their time. Yeah, they were ahead of their time. I mean they bid was shooting the three. Stoyakka was shooting the three. Bobby Jackson come off the bench shooting in three. Bladdy from time to time will pop. Brad Miller would pop. You know, C. Webb used to pop a little bit. That's what made them so damn dynamic because they were so far ahead of their time. And then

they showed up. Yeah. And when they showed up, it's changed the game. Well, Nelly, too, in Dallas, y'all play that way. Did y'all play fast that? He liked to play fast, but he also liked to play two or three minutes off the elbow. Because in the elbow, the weak side is in a bind, right? And that's why we play delay now.

The ball's a lot of five out. But on the elbow, if you're the weak side, he can still hit your guy. So he always knew that for pressure on you. So if you want to come, that's a one pass. Wherever it's on the wing, it's got to be a swing, swing, or a skip. So I think he used to, like, try to distort the defense like that. But even those Sun's teams, like, we think. about them now played so fast and shot a bunch of threes not true not true we're talking about it yeah

we i can't remember what year we beat the spurs in san antonio to tie the series two two i think it might have been the game robert orey body check me the thing i think if it was that game we we made five threes five and we're supposed to be a run and gun team right like we should have shot 35 threes right 403s so we look back yeah tinted glasses right like it's all It's a slow evolution. Now I feel like things are starting to change quickly. It's like the tech industry almost. There's so much information now.

And it's all personnel too. But just like the tech industries, some people try it and they can't even get to that. They can't get to that capacity. They don't have the resources. You've got to have the personnel in our league too. As much as there's a copycat league and as much we talk about three-point shooting

or whatever case may be, you still, like, if you're a team shooting 28% from the three-point line throughout the season, that don't mean take more three straight up straight up like what are we doing I mean

I mean but that I mean that's the solution that's what they tell that's what they tell that's what they tell more threes if we shoot

48 threes on the on the game that's not enough no it's not enough oh no they get mad if you

if you below 35 40 man so do you think the profile of players change like I'm been thinking I'm like

I don't know if the six two or none guard is at a premium no more as a starter maybe as a backup but you have to be we just talked about this the last it's gotten compressed it has right it's compressed it's that like either donovan mitchell drew holiday six three or lu dorke or it's not you got to be you can't get picked on defense that's the thing because we're playing such to pick on game that they will really literally if you can't guard they will bring you up every play yeah every six foot six one

and you're not a bulldog like the davion met you yeah jew holidays mm-hmm on the defense side or you're not an offense that's flat-out savant like karee where you can score on dude's seven feet easily in an ice throat then i just can't see it what you think like yeah like um like for me it's i'm interested like darius garland like he's an amazing basketball player. I think his value, right, like, I'm shot, like, we don't talk about him as, like, just amazing.

Like, because the era, like, if he played in any other era, I think he would have been, like, his value would be through the roof. Like, he's that skill, he's water bug, he's got every shot, he can play, make. But there's an era where it's like, okay, we also have to help that dude out defensively all the time.

Yeah, I mean. Like, that's an example for me, because he's such a good basketball player, right? He's so tough. I mean, it's just, yeah, Yeah, he is, and it's like, but the defensive side of the ball is where, you know, people were attacking. If you want a chance to beat the Cleveland Cavaliers, you are going at Darius Garland most of the time on the defensive side. That's not saying that he's going to get scored on every time, but sometimes he's just small. He's just six-one, six-two sometimes. And when you got to, nowadays, I mean, offenses are giving a ball to their best player.

I don't care of you, six, nine, six, ten. If you out on that perimeter, polo up there, bring up Darius Garland. And if you don't have that built them. But Cleveland did a good job of building in that help around. But if you don't have that around, those guards at their size is going to be tough. Because now five guys outside the three-point line.

If he played 10, 15 years ago and beyond, six out of ten dudes are inside the three-point line. You got help right there. That makes deepness easier for everybody. It's harder for some of the best. best defendants to guard up with all of this space. I heard you say I'm on, with JJ, I think, on a podcast, that it was harder to get 30 in the start of your career, just because of spacing.

It definitely, man, it was. I mean, you got two dudes at the box. A bunch of power forwards in the league. Most of the time, the whole league went floppy. That's the go-to set. So we got four guys, or eight guys inside the three-point line. Right in front of the basket. All they do was lift, upper body.

Up top, not a game. They weren't working on their legs back there, man. It's all just pushing and shoving it, bro. It's all strong, man. Like gold's gym. When you think back to our time in Brooklyn, what do you think of? Man. Tell him about the three-point line.

You know, some people are saying take the corner three out. I think that would be... What are we doing? Disrespecting the whole game of basketball. So you know that when the three-point curve, it just goes out by. And there's nothing. And there's no three-point line at all. So you're catching it in the corner.

Long two. It's just a super long two. You're in the dunker. You can imagine analytics when we have a big play defense where it'd be like three guys on the top. Just forced the long two. Just forced the long two.

Nobody dropped the long two. No one's covering the corners. No one covers the long two right there. Destroy the game. Thanks for watching Mind the game. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe for more content. Thank you.