Mind the Game - LeBron James talks Wemby, playoffs, and His Future in the NBA

Episode Date: May 21, 2026

The Conference Finals are heating up and we have some fantastic series to cover here on Mind the Game with LeBron James and Steve Nash. But first we dissect this amazing season LeBron had and how it came to a close. We also talk about LeBron's thought process as he evaluates his future. After that, we jump into the Eastern Conference Finals with Jalen Brunson and the New York Knicks vs. Donovan Mitchell, James Harden and the Cleveland Cavaliers. Then we get into the Western Conference Finals between SGA and the Oklahoma City Thunder and Victor Wembanyama and the San Antonio Spurs. Finally we end with a big Wemby deep dive!Thanks for watching and listening to Mind the Game!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Coming up on this episode of Mind the Game. We played it to the maximum ability of our team. We were not outworked. They didn't out physical us. They didn't out smart us. We were out talented. Obviously, you're very, very familiar with Shane. It's just awarded back-to-back MVP's thoughts on him going back-to-back.

I don't think we've really had like a definitive Wemby talk. I think some fans may not understand how good this guy is and just want to revert back to he's tall. He's not the first guy in our league that's been tall. His ability to catch the ball with his back towards the basket or half of his body and be able to find a rim before he even lands.

That is coordination that we've never seen before, and it's not just because he's tall. I think we have some clips. What strategies, tactics would you employ to try to make when be less effective defensively? Let's talk about Nick's Calf. We know what we're going to get out of the Knicks. They're going to play hard, they're going to play tough.

They have their guys. They know their roles. They know exactly what they need to do every game. It doesn't always result in a win, but at least they know what their staple is. You know, it looks a little bit different from game to game. Shifting gears, let's touch on your future. Where is your mind right now? Are you thinking about it every day?

Are you getting close to feeling a direction? Mr. James. You had a little bit of space in time since the OKC series? Yeah, yeah, just been, I mean, just, you know, chilling, man, just, you know, taking the whole season in and getting an opportunity to recover, you know, had a couple, you know, bumps and bruises to end the season. But, you know, I think we both can agree that offseason without rehab is a success, you know, after a long season. So I'll take it. Especially after season 23. Right. I mean, that in itself is crazy. No surgery, no rehab. have, no, I mean, amazing accomplishment. Looking back on 23, I want to hear about it.

Like, what's your take on the season, where you're at, the level you played at, and like, on the records? Like, you broke records. Like, what stands out to you? Like, start to finish when you went into the season to the end, like, amazing. Well, obviously, the start of the season, you know, wasn't, you know, the way I wanted to start. Obviously, kind of started on the shelf, you know, coming, you know, off to offseason when I was

dealing with the sciatic and sciatic pain, whatever. So missing training camp, missing preseason, missing the first 14 games of the regular season, you know, was challenging for me. It was difficult for me. And it was also like, you know, mentally it kind of, you know, got to me a little bit to even know or feel like I could get back to, you know, my level of play, you know. So, you know, obviously when I got back, it took a little bit, a little bit of time to kind of get that rhythm to get that flow again after missing so much time. But once I got going, it just felt good to be back out there, be back out there with the group. And, you know, at one point, obviously, we were kind of trying to figure out what we were as a team, you know, how we all can match together, you know, and injuries kind of hit again. You know, AR gets hurt.

You know, Luca kind of steps away from, you know, the team for a little bit for the birth of his child. You know, I get hurt again, you know. And, you know, it just seemed like so many seasons just wrapped in one. But we were still staying afloat as a team. We were still playing good basketball, even with guys in and out. And then we just hit a, we hit a really good streak when I came back after my last, you know, a few games out where, you know, I fit into a role that our team needed. Luca was playing at an MVP level. AR was playing at an all-star level.

and we were just on fire. You know, we were winning games. We were, you know, we were defending at a high level. We was one of the best offensive teams in the league, one of the top 10 defensive teams in the league. So, you know, it was a great, you know, up until that point was great. And then obviously, like a week before the playoffs, everyone kind of know what happened.

You know, Luca goes out with the hamstring, AR goes out with the oblique. And, you know, we are heading into the playoffs with two of our biggest guns, not playing. You know, but I felt pretty good. I was able to ramp up over those months. And then when I came back and kind of fit into that role, I was able to ramp up some more to get ready for the postseason.

But it was definitely different because I figured I would go into the postseason that's kind of like this Swiss Army knife row where, you know, I can really pick my spots, play this, you know, this third, you know, situation, whatever the case may be, or whatever. If it needed to be first in certain quarters, if it need to be second and certain, like whatever, But I was thrown back into that number one option role. And for our team to win a playoff series, you know, I think that was a huge accomplishment. I mean, obviously, my aspirations is much bigger than just one playoff series.

I've won a lot of playoff series, and one is never enough. But under the circumstances of what our team had went through and what we were going through at that time, you know, AR did come back and was able to play some good basketball. like the last few games, but he was still trying to find his rhythm. Obviously, we never got Luca back. We had a lot of injuries, man. But for our ball club, under the circumstances that we're in, to win a playoff series in the Western Conference, I give a lot of respect and a lot of kudos to our guys and to

our coaching staff of mentally, physically preparing us for that matchup. And given all that we had, obviously, versus defending champions. And so it was a pretty good season. It had some, you know, like I said, some good individual moments, you know, breaking some more records, setting some more records. That's all pretty cool. I love that. But one of the most impressive things for me to be out there in the playoff game with

Bronny, you know, we had a stretch in one of those games. I think it was game three in Houston where we wrapped. We ran off 10 straight points between the two of us in a postseason game. That was like, that was a moment where I kind of blacked out and was like, what is going? on wow how amazing this is right now. So yeah, it was a great. It was a successful season, like I said, to be able to play at a high level, know that I can still play at that high level, carry a team into the playoffs at that point in time. And then help a team win a playoff series at my age and stage in my career. That was, it was pretty special. So, yeah,

that's pretty much year 23 in a nutshell, man. You know, a nice little two and a half, three minute spill. Yeah, that's great. You touched on something there that's interesting. You know, we're so obsessed these days with one team wins, ring culture, who's the champion, but like, not every team can win. Not every team is built to win. Every team's in a different cycle, you know, especially, you know, no disrespect to anybody else, but the way that San Antonio and OKC are kind of emerging, you know, it's very difficult to match the talent, let alone all the intentions and stuff. So I thought you made a really interesting point about like, you you still have to play to fight for your best level and find reward in that,

even if there's always going to come criticism when you don't win and you get swept. But you hung in there. Every game, first halves were great, kind of got worn down a little bit, but maybe talk to people a little bit about how you approach all that, like balancing, like our team, not letting go of the rope, continuing to improve, finding reward in the daily duties, at the same time not getting swept up in the noise that surrounds our game. Yeah, and I understand that.

You know, you get caught up at ring, and things of that nature. But at the end of the day, there's 29 teams, if that's the case, who are all failures, if that's always the narrative. Right. Because it's only one champion, you know, every year. So, you know, I have the passion and the admiration to host of Larry O'Brien Trophy up every single year, but I also have a realization of, you know, what particular team I have been a part of in that

particular year. And, you know, understanding this year, you know, you know, you know, and understanding this year, You know, we fought and we played it to the maximum ability of our team. But ultimately, you know, if we being completely honest, we were out talented. We were not outworked. We were not, you know, out, you know, they didn't out physical us. They didn't outsmart us. You know, I feel like we were just out talent, you know, by OKC.

They just possessed so much more talent. And yeah, yeah, you know, they might have had a couple more possessions. where some IQ could kick in, but that happens throughout the course of the game. That goes for both teams. I feel like there's times where we had moments where we outkewed them, but IQed them. So, but at the end of the day, we failed in talent, you know, okay, see, just possess so much more talent than us. And, you know, you can tip your cap to them, obviously, you know, and understanding that. But yeah, yeah, you can't get caught up in that, especially when you know that, you know, you were underman.

sure. Yeah, it's like the most important thing is judging yourself against yourself. Yeah, for sure. What are you and we capable? I like, I felt the same way about my Phoenix Sons. You know, they played OKC in the first round, got swept, but got better every game. You know, for me, you guys got better every game. Suns got better every game. That's a sign of a solid culture. That's a sign of good people that want to collaborate, want to get better, don't want to just say, ah, this is too uphill for us. We're out. So like that, that to me is a sign that like, your building is operating in a great way and as the right leadership, right, coaching.

The players come together. And like sometimes I think it's really difficult for fans to understand how valuable that is. Like, you know how it is you see talented teams, but they're not enjoyable to watch. And then you see other teams, but they go about their business as a team playing for one another and fan bases get behind them.

So there is such reward and value, I think, in a team getting as close to their potential as possible, even if that doesn't compare necessarily to the champs. No, absolutely, absolutely, because there's stepping blocks you have to get to get to that level. I mean, obviously we see OKC today, you know, we see OKC of last year, but they've had stepping blocks to get to this point, you know.

People forget what OKC looked like five years ago, what they look like four years ago. You know, obviously San Antonio's ascendant has been a little bit different, but, you know, you see what they look like five years ago, look like when Wimby was hurt, you know, when Wimby didn't play much last year or whatever the case may be. And now you see when he's, you know, pretty much healthy, they add that talent around him. They get even younger. They have some more, you know, some more, you know, experience with, you know, Harrison Barnes and De Aaron Fox, who have playoff experience, you know,

Luke Cornet, who has playoff, you know, experience. They add those pieces to that young group, and now you see what happens, you know, and, you know, saying, you know, New York is still, you know, they're building their block, you know, Cleveland is building, everyone is building their blocks. And, you know, it just takes time. It takes time. And you have every now and then, you have those, you know, those one hitters where that comes in and you're like, oh, man.

And they sometimes are able to win a championship, you know. And but how long can that sustain? You know, it's about sustainability and it's about a culture. Like you said, of how can we continue to build, build, build until we get to that point. And then, you know, stand up there. Well, shifting gears, let's touch on your future. A lot up in the air for you. How are you approaching this being that you have had already?

I saw the other day this great thing. It was like you've had four Hall of Fame careers. So here you are having accomplished literally everything. But you are still doing it at a really high level. And so you've got to decide do you want to play? Where do you want to play? Who do you want to play with? All that stuff.

what goes into that? I mean, where is your mind right now? Are you thinking about it every day? Are you getting close to feeling a direction? Or are you just like, I need some time still? Yeah, I'm still in the moment of like just taking my time and saying I haven't even really thought about it too much. Obviously, I understand that I'm a free agent and I can control my own destiny.

If, you know, being here with this, you know, with this franchise, you know, for, you know, foreseeable future or if it's going somewhere else. But like I haven't even really even got to that point. I haven't even taken my family vacation yet, which is going to happen after Memorial Day. You know, that's kind of the thing at the forefront of my mind. But, you know, I think at some point, you know, up until, you know, up in June, late June, you know, as July rolled around, free agency starts to, you know, gets going. And, you know, as, you know, July rolling and maybe into August, we start to kind of like get a feel of, you know, what my future may look like. You know, if it's continuing to play the game, it's.

love, which I know I can still give so much to the game and play at a high level or, you know, or if it's not. So, but I have not got to that point yet. And, yeah, when I get there, you know, it'd be, it'd be fun to kind of see what the future could hold, either if it's, like I said, in another NBA arena for another year or or not. Yeah. But I assume knowing you, you'd probably only want to go in a positive environment where you can win. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, year 24 is not a starting at the bottom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, there's no way. There's no way. Just, I mean, you know, winning is most important because you want to be excited about going to work every day.

You want to be excited about, you know, like I said earlier, winning the day, you know, and being around a group of guys that, you know, feel the same way and trying not to take steps backwards. You know, I understand the season is a long marathon and whatever the case may be. but those building blocks throughout the course of the season is what matters to when you get to the marathon and that's where you get to the sprint, which is now, you know, the postseason.

So yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm not going anywhere where it's a start over at year 24 or things of that nature. Yeah, yeah, I'm done with that. So that's a part of the equation. The other part of the equation is family. I mean, your kids have grown up for the most part in L.A. Yeah. You know, you got to consider that.

At the same time, like, you're not going to go sign a six-year deal somewhere. So it's still a consideration, I think, is I haven't been there at the end of my career when I went to the Lakers. It was a tricky decision for me. And you've got to weigh all these things. I imagine that's something that's important to you. It's very important. And it's up there. I mean, one A and one B is like, where do I feel comfortable with doing my career?

but also with my family, you know, how do they feel about whatever decision that I'm able to come up with it make? And that's a joint decision as well. I give them the insight, both my boys, my daughter, and my wife. You know, so, you know, it's one A and one B. You know, I don't think one is higher than another, whatever the case may be. So, yeah, that's very important. You know, obviously, you know, have an opportunity to spend a lot of time with Bronny over the last couple of years. That's great. And, you know, Bryce is, you know, going into his second year at AZ, at Arizona. my daughter would be 12 in the fall and she's, you know, doing her volleyball thing. And, you know, so, you know, it's a decision that would be made between all of us. Obviously, I know my family will give me the final say-so, as they've always done and always respected it.

But I'm definitely conscientious about, like, their feelings and, you know, their dad being around or not being around as much as they were like. So that's definitely important. Yeah, well, good luck. I know it's not easy to decide. especially the position you're in. So I'm excited for you, though. Man, I appreciate it. Yes, sir.

And now over to our producer, Jason, for a word from one of our partners. Thanks to Draft King Sportsbook for sponsoring the show. With just a few crucial weeks left in the postseason, there's no better time to get your picks in with our partners at Draft King's Sportsbook. From star players and MVPs to rookies getting their shot on the big stage,

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say it does keep you a little bit more locked in than normal, especially when you're tracking these players in real time. It just makes you pay attention to the details, like this show, actually. So don't wait to take your shot. Download the Draft King Sportsbook app now and use code mine to turn $5 into $100 in bonus bets instantly. Draft Kings, the crown is yours. Let's talk about Nick's Cavs, the East. Caves, I mean, man, what a performance in Game 7. Yeah. They definitely have struggled. I think at times for me, James and Donovan finding that balance as to who is kind of, you know, initiating.

How do they both get the most out of each other? And then moving on, I think that really impacts Mobley and Allen and the rest of the team. And so, you know, it's a funny team because we see the talent. And then they've added James, and that's not easy. Right. And James is still so capable of playing at a high level. But it is a difficult mechanism to throw into a team to try to find a way. So it was funny because a lot of games you've come on and you're like, you don't believe in them because they're flat.

You don't feel it. But I think that's almost like paralysis by analysis. They haven't found their rhythm. And then they surely found it in game seven. I thought they played earlier, were more decisive. You know, they got to their angles and actions. And I think that helped take away some of the strengths of Detroit's defense. So I'd love to hear your take on this.

this kind of resurgence here by the Cavs. Yeah, I mean, you just said it. I mean, like you, Dr. Jack or Mr. High sometimes with the Cavs team, you look at game six, you know, a close-out game at home, and you expect for them to come out and, like, put their foot forward. And, you know, it doesn't mean that you're going to win the game, but, you know, the way that they came out and played game six, you was like, holy shit, that's not what we, that's not what we're expecting.

So where you're home close-out game. So then you look at game seven in Detroit, where Detroit has all the momentum and you're like, okay, well, you know, Detroit has the, you know, they have the advantage here especially after game six in the way they played and then you get the other side of the calves, you know, the team that they've assembled

with all the talent, you know. So, yeah, I mean, it's going to be a challenging series for Cleveland. And I think it's more, I think it's more mental than physical. Obviously, you have to bring a physical, you know, approach when you're playing the Knicks, but you had to bring that same physical approach when you play Detroit as well.

So they should have the physical part of the game. They should be well old for that. You know, it shouldn't be a surprise. Coming from Detroit, that was like us. When we came off the Houston series, we wasn't surprised by the physicality of OKC. We was already ready for that. But I think the mental approach,

I think the Knicks is playing great ball right now. You know, they found a great rhythm, you know. And, you know, obviously, you know, it starts with J.B. You know, at the head of the snake. But, like, OG has played great ball. You know, Mikhail started to get it going, you know, later in that series against Philly. You know, cat playing great.

You know, the bench is playing great. You know, and obviously Josh Harder is kind of one of those Swiss Army knives who kind of does everything. And they just feel like they're in a really good rhythm right now. But, you know, I want to, let's see. You know, let's see what happens. We know what we're going to get out of the Knicks. They're going to play hard. They're going to play tough.

you know, guys are going to, you know, they have their guys, they know their roles. They know exactly what they need to do every game. It doesn't always result in the win, but at least they know what their staple is. Sometimes, like you said, Cleveland sometimes, you know, it looks a little bit different from game to game. And I think that's like a case of like, you know, trying to figure out. They still are like figuring it out. James and Donovan are two guys who, you know, will love to have the ball in their hands, but also don't mind kind of getting off of that times.

but how do they still impact winning and impact their team when they're not on the ball? So, yeah, I mean, the series can go to either team who shows up, but if the Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde of the Cavs show up, then the Knicks will, you know, head to the finals, yeah, for sure. You know, so we have to see. We have to see which Cavs team is going to show up.

And like I said, it's not going to be from a physical standpoint. It's going to be from a mental standpoint. Yeah, I agree with you there. I think this Cavs team is still adapting. still learning, still trying to figure out how to make it all work. You know, I think even the adjustments they made, you know, not schematic adjustments, but like Donovan looking to play, make more. James trying to get to his move earlier.

Yeah. You know, I think those little things that they're learning as they go, how they can make each other better and fit together. On the Knicks side, I thought it was really interesting to see. I mean, what have they won like seven games in a row now? After going down 2-1 to Atlanta, I think they've won seven games now in a row playing great basketball. One of the adjustments they've made is Cat being a hub, you know, playing through Cat. Little, I think this was, this was always Mike Brown's vision, you know, having the Sabonis

Holman in Sacramento, you know, getting Cat out there where he can be a hub where he's a tough cover and yet now he's playmaking, you know, he's not great at playing, playmaking off the dribble, but off that hub, you know, he can really make some passes and then J.B.'s back screening and how do you handle that, you know, so they have the talent to match Cleveland and now they've added this element where J.B. doesn't have to create everything for their offense. It's kind of interesting to see if they can take another level. So I don't know if you like that, that new look for them, like adding a little diversity to their offense, but I've kind of enjoyed seeing Kat as a hub. Yeah, I think so. I think because the most important that you're getting out of that, you also, you, you now shift your pie

chart from people just thinking heavy, heavy, heavy, J.B. Pick and Roll J.B. Isso to now the demographic of your offense shifts. which means the defense can't be just keyed in on just one action now. So having, like you said, Kat at the hub, at the elbow, at the top of the key, you know, it allows J.B to be off the ball where he can set a rip screen for O.G to the rim. And if they mess that up, O.G. gets a dunk. You know, if they don't, if they mess that up and both of them go with O.G. to the rim, now you got J.B. coming off clean, you know, either for a clean shot or a D.H.O.

Now the defense is playing catch-up. So, yeah, I think that's helped their demographic out a lot. their pie chart on what they can do offensively. And a defense can't just key on a couple actions anymore. And I thought over the last couple of years with New York, you kind of got a good rhythm of how they were going to play. You know, and the ball was going to end up in a certain way every single time. And obviously, we know that J.B. is going to still has his ISO game where he's really good.

He's still going to have his pick and roll game where he's really good. But to sprinkle in a little bit of off ball action, a little bit of pitch. interposed action, you know, with a different hub. I think that helps out a lot. Yeah, for sure. I agree with you. I think it's a great way. The pie chart is a great way to describe it.

Like, how do you diversify, bring different elements? They're not even, you know, I think they, it's one thing to get Kat. Now you're given, like you said, like you're asking the defense to use more bandwidth. Yeah. Right. But it's also for J.B. too. Like it's a, they are not expecting when Kat has it in a hub. Like they're thinking about more than one thing, you know, instead of just getting in the gaps

trying to think. But I do think that what I like about this Knicks team is, is the winning plays, the Josh Hart's, you know, Mitchell Robinson. Mitchell Robinson, yeah. You know, like this year, but also last year against Boston, McKell Bridges making big defensive plays. O.G. always comes up with a big play and is a force at both ends. I think that's where they win. I mean, J.B. is brilliant, and, you know, we know how talented cat is and the rest of them. But I think they win on the hustle plays, the physicality, the force. I think Josh Hart is a great kind of, you know, he's like the leader in that category

right away. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Like I got to give a lot of credit to that, to the bench as well. Like you said, like, you know, Deuce McBride and Mitchell Robinson. And even early in the season, people were wondering, you know, why Jordan Clarkson wasn't playing. And I think Mike Brown, like, was like, hey, I got to have guys that's going to compete on both ends of the floor, you know.

And I think Jordan took that into account. And, like, he competes like hell on the defensive. of the floor and we already know his shot making ability on the other end. You know, Landry Shammit, these guys are coming in and they're keeping the pressure, they're keeping the momentum of what the starters are doing. And like you said, it starts with Josh Hart. I mean, we already know that what he's going to do on the floor doesn't always show up in the box scores, the diving for the loose balls, they're getting the extra possessions.

You know, he's a one-man fast break as well, you know, but he just does all the dirty work. And, you know, that's always been a staple with, listen, when you talk about the Knicks, they've always had one of those guys. When they've won, they've had one of those guys, you know, and that's just synonymous with the Knickerbocker. So, yeah, it's good to see. Yeah, I think it's going to be a fun series. Yeah, man, it will. I want to get your thoughts on Detroit. One, the East, you know, two game sevens.

Obviously, they didn't play to their level or identity in game seven against Cleveland. but you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, but what do you see for them in their future? As you spoke about a number of times, like the level of their cycle, like where they're at. They're still building, you know, like they, was it three years ago? They lost like 20-something games in a row.

So what's your thoughts on Detroit and the stage of their program? I think, you know, where they are today is obviously what they don't want to be, you know, of tomorrow. But I think what I saw is, The thing that we're talking about how we are giving a different pie chart to the Knicks, I think they're going to ultimately have to do that as well. Because as great as Kate is, you know, at the end of the day, you know, to have a few possessions where you can be off the ball or have a few possessions where you can go to the bench

and feel good about someone else controlling the offense and getting guys in their right positions and things of that nature, either from an attack standpoint or being able just to get the ball in the right places, I don't think they were able to possess that, you know, this year when Cade was out in the postseason. In the regular season, yes. You know, we understand in the regular season, guys can make up. You know, guys can make up. And even in maybe a first round series, you know, at times. But as you get later and later in the stages of the postseason, you have to have multiple guys that can do multiple things.

And I think what we're seeing from the top four teams that's left, New York has multiple. There are multiple guys that can do multiple things. They can pass, shoot, dribble. Cleveland has multiple guys that can pass shoot dribble. San Antonio has a plethora of guys that can pass shoot dribble. And OKC have a plethora of guys that can pass shoot and dribble. I just didn't think that Detroit possessed that for a period of time. You know, it was heavy dosions of Cade.

You know, they were getting some good play out of Jenkins, obviously. you know, you know, Tobias was kind of up and down from time to time. You know, obviously the Thompson twin is great, you know, and what he brings to the table. But he's going to have to continue to improve. And the same with Jalen Durant, you know, he's going to have to continue to improve for their team to, you know, reach a level of excellence.

But I think the pie chart at some point for their team to get to another level, it has to diversify a little bit. And I think that's the reason why Cleveland was ultimately able to, you know, punch they clock in the final four. Yeah, I think it was exacerbated too by Cleveland's strategy of trying to wear Kate out. They switched his pick and rolls and say, go at it. You can get the matchup you want, but we're going to put bodies here and you're going to have to do it every night for a seven-game series and they started picking him up full court. Yeah. Like you said, it's just too much, you know, for one guy. He plays both ends of the floor, you know, and he's got to make all the plays.

So, yeah, whether it's adding, shooting and playmaking, or it's development of Jalen Duren, of, you know, Dennis Jenkins. Yeah. And those guys won't get better. Exactly. Those guys will ultimately get better, you know, because that's, you know, I think if those guys, you know, take your craft seriously, then they're going to want to get better because they see how close they were.

A game seven at home, you're not going to feel good in the offseason. Yeah. You're the number one scene. You have a game seven at home. You just want a game six on the road to, you know, to make sure that you extend the series. You're not going to feel good in the off season. So I hope they use that as motivation. But yeah, like you said, so if it's adding more shooting, you know, so that's a fine line.

So like when you add shooting, you got to make sure, which is hard to come out in our league, add shooting, but also a guy that's just not just a sniper. That's all he can do, you know, because, you know, on the other end at times, or if they run the guys off the line and not giving you no he looks, then you're, you don't, sometimes you don't want to play them, you know, so they have to be very sure. I think they have to just be very smart about how they, you know, get their team better. And those guys that still on the roster

will come back better as well. But I think it was just a lot of pressure and a lot of have to do it all at times for Kate. Yeah, I agree. I think you're right. It is tricky. They're a defensive identity. So they don't want to just bring in anyone

who can shoot the ball. But they do need playmaking. They do need shooting. But I do think there is a lot, a lot of room for improvement as good as, but because they're so young, as good as they are for Thompson and Dern. Like those guys can really get a lot better.

Oh, yeah. With their athletic skills. So that's the number one area. And then you see what they can do in the market. Now they can rearrange their cap structure and all this stuff. So I think the future is bright. Oh, yeah. I'm high on the Thompson twin.

I'm high on the Thompson twin. I'm high on Durant as well. You know, and those guys are, well, I mean, I think the Thompson twins alone, both of them are superstars in the making. I think those guys are freaking incredible. I love everything about them guys. they're going to get better and better. But like you said, yeah, Jalen Duran, you know, had a, you know, great year, all-star this year.

And it was his first, like, you know, I think I remember a quote from, I think it was Jared Allen, you know, maybe last year, the year before when they lost to, I think it was a Knicks. And he said maybe the lights were a little bit too bright, you know. And so you have to go through something at times. And some people will probably forget he said that because he played so damn great. game seven, he's been playing great in the postseason. So, you know, Jalen Duran is young. He's still a young talent, and he's going to have his moment where, you know, the lights probably won't feel too bright to him and he'll shine through. So, you know, that's all part of the progression. By the way, did you see the charge Sam Merrill's gone outside Thompson?

Goodness. There's not many people that big and that fast that get hit. So one I'm talking to right now, has anyone ever stepped in on you at full speed? Did you ever remember someone stepping in on you like that? Like at full speed? Because it's hard to do. Yeah, that's hard to do. It's almost a fluke, right? Like he just didn't expect Meryl to get all the way there.

No, he didn't. And he did not, I don't think he expected him not only to get there, but also beat him to the spot where it was like head on. You see, Sam, he's like, he thought all this fronts was gone. Well, he banged his head on the court. You know you got hit hard when you can't control. your neck and you have you I don't even know I don't think so man like I've run a couple guys over but like I think some guys have embraced like the one thing that one play we can

find I think it was a postseason play we're in Chicago I was running full speed my first stint in Cleveland or or Miami and Kurt Heinrich was about to take a charge but before he took the charge and he saw me going he kind of grabbed me and pulled and like pulled me down at the same time so it wasn't like it wasn't surprised he He didn't get surprised. No, he didn't get surprised by it. So, yeah, but, no, that right there, that was a full-on, like, Bo Jackson standing in the, you know, in the whole Earl Campbell-type.

Right. Yeah, it was a football element to that. Yeah, for sure, for sure. Made me think the Thompson twins, like, I mean, they obviously could go tight end, but, like, man, as a safety, their length and speed. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, it'd be another set of Ed Reed's out there for sure. Right.

Breaking on the ball. Oh, my goodness. Coming out of a series with OKC, obviously you're very, very familiar with shame. It's just awarded back-to-back MVP's thoughts on him going back-to-back. First of all, you clap it up, salute. I know you're proud, you know, another Canadian back-to-back. Absolutely. Yeah, with you.

Absolutely. Yeah, listen, man, you get props for props. dude, Shea had one of the most efficient NBA campaigns that we've seen in NBA history, did it at a high level, no matter who was in and out of the lineup. I mean, he's missed his robbing a lot of the season in J-dub, and he still kept it going. Like, you know, yeah, I have no, you know, we talked about this in one of our previous episodes where we talked about, I think that like the top four guys that was like the Shea, Wimby, Joker, you know, Jalen, Luca, Jalen Brown, whatever.

And we came to a point where we was like, listen, if Joker gets it, okay, all right. If Wimby gets it, okay, we get it. If Shea gets it, absolutely, okay. Like, you know, and, you know, so, you know, I think he, he's very deserving. And nobody can sit here and be like, how the hell does Shay win again?

Like, nobody can sit here and say that. So, and to go up against him for four games and obviously in the regular season as well, he does things to a defense, does things to opposing teams that you have to just simply account for. He's number one and two and three on that scouting report, you know,

and he's the head of the snake. And they have a great team, obviously. Great team, great personnel, great balance. But, you know, and you see that. You even see that when Shea's not on the floor, how great they are still. But at the end of the day, Shea sets the tone with his demeanor,

his play, his selflessness, both on and off the floor, so rewarded to a great person. Having not played him but watched him since he was a kid, he's grown into this player where, like, there's a relentless pressure on the defense. You guys played him well. You played him well, but, like, it's not even, you know,

you guys threw bodies at him. You hit at times, but you zoned at times, but you zoned behind the man with the ball and, like, made it crowded. But, like, even at that, like, if you're not back set and loaded, he's so slippery. And when he gets in, he can, go wherever he wants and finish.

If you don't treat him with the same level of respect that you treat Janus with, you know, when Janus get a rebound, you know, everyone talks about. Interesting, yeah. Get back and load to Janus. Get back, set the defense and load because if not, he's punching gaps right away. And he's on the rim right away. Yep. You know, and you don't look at Shay like that from a physical standpoint because you look at

him, you're like, okay, well, he's not, you know, 6-11. He's not, you know, bulky strong like Janus. he's not, you know, super physical like Jan is downhill. But then you realize he absolutely is when you're on the floor. You know, he uses big shoulder. He uses off arm. He uses your speed against you when he has you, you know, backpelling. And then now he's using, you know, that against you, you know.

So if you're not backed with, you know, two guys, three guys load into the basket, loaded to the basketball with Shay with the ball, he's going to punch those gaps. And he's going to get to the rim and he's going to finish. who's going to get to the free throw line because now you're off balance. So you have to treat him with Yana's level of respect in the open floor. And that's just the first part, you know. And then you have to make sure you account for him in the half court as well. But, you know, you have to do that before he even gets started because he's just that damn good.

It's like, it's interesting too because I think it's kind of sacrilegious to like compare somewhere. to MJ and Kobe. But like he does, like, I mean, he gets to his spot. Just because he doesn't dunk three or four times a game, he could. I mean, he's just, he's even more proficient at getting to his spot

and making middies, like, then those guys. And they're, you know, two of the all-time. Right, right. Yeah. I mean, it's, you don't, like, when he, when he gets to his midi,

you just don't think he's going to miss. Like, you just don't think he's going to miss. miss. He's that efficient. He's that efficient. And when he does miss, you have to rebound the ball. You have to because giving him or giving them second chance shots, like he's just that good, man. And, you know, like you said, he gets to anywhere he can't, anywhere he wants on the floor. He has the left hand cross. He has the right hand cross. He has the end and out with the left hand where he can finish left, left. He has the right hand in and out where he can finish right, right. You know, he has the step through moves. He has the bump fades. He has the

step back. Like he has everything in his arsenal and he has the ability to be able to shift, you know, in transition without losing acceleration. He could go in and out cross, in and out behind, you know, and not lose acceleration and get to that rim. And if you're not, if you're not loaded, if you're not paying attention to that, then you're done. Yeah. Yeah, he's so mobile. Yeah. He's his, his spine. Yeah. He's like, he's like, His spine, his ankles, his hips, he can get into gaps. He's quick.

He's quick. But you don't look at him and go. He's the fastest guy in the league. But he's quick. But like just his mobility, his deceleration, stopping on a dime. Like it's, I mean, he's a wizard getting to the spot and making shots. You know what I like? And I like to get your take on this.

I love their two bigs, that too big lineup. Like we know Chet's talent. We know his ability to play inside out, to stretch the floor. But like, I'm really, really impressed with Hardinstein as an IQ, as energy. He rebounds. He constantly gets in the pocket. It has a great floater, but he's a great passer. I mean, I just think he has a great feel defensively, like getting up to the level, not, you know, getting the right spot.

First of all, you're dealing with length and athleticism right off top, you know. And there's not many two big lineups in our league that possess that type of a lot. athleticism, not only vertically, but also from baseline to baseline and also side line to sideline. Yeah. You know, you're not getting that too much in our league, you know, and, you know, they have the ability to also do things that certain guards can do. They have the ability to put the ball on the ground, you know, you, you know, shaking, you close

out too hard on Chet. He can drive a close out and also, you know, go between behind and then turn his back on you and then shoot over top of you because he's seven foot. You know, Hardstein is like a great hub for them. When things break down, they can hit him, you know, in a trail spot or hit him in the pinch post and his IQ is good enough to be able to make the reach, drop off a DHO and then slip to the rim for a lob. You know, just create that vacuum, you know, for, you know, for, you know, for, you know,

all those guys that's coming down here, whatever the case may be. And then defensively, like you said, where Hardinstein, obviously, You know, you got to be conscientious of where Chetty is because he kind of has, he's not at the level of whimby. Nobody's at the level of whimby. But you have to take account for where he is because of his shot blocking ability. He can come from strong side. He can from weak side. He can be low man, high man, high tag, low tag.

Like he could be anywhere. You know, and Harstein has the ability, like you said, playing up at the level, being able to stab at the ball, you know, of the guard and still be able to get back and not let roller get behind him. So, yeah, they possess a lot of things that people don't see or understand because they're just watching the game, obviously, but there's nuances of the game that Coach Mark know that he has that a lot of team doesn't. So that's definitely award-winning when it comes to those two guys. It's like for the casual fan, it's like there's space on the floor

that is just taken away by having those two bigs out there with their IQ and the mobile nature that you think there's a space, it's not there. No, it's not there. And then you add to it those physical defenders on the perimeter. One being your little brother, Alex Caruso. You guys had some fun possessions in that series, you know. You must have enjoyed that, you know, and what a competitor he is and how good he is defensively. Oh, absolutely.

Miss him every single day. I miss AC every single day and then just to be able to compete against him, you know, in a playoff series was, I mean, it's everything. Because I know one thing for sure, two things for certain. If you want to compete, AC is going to be right there. You know, he's going to get up underneath you. He's going to grab you. He's going to hold you.

He's going to compete. And he's going to do it at a professional level. And AC's not going to beat himself. So you have to play that, you have to play that chess game with AC, you know, understanding, you know, where he is on the floor, he's damn good with his hands. You can't play with the ball around him because he will, he will take. it from you. So you got to be very strategic with your movements. Offensibly, you've got to be very strategic with your body positioning with him. But it was great. It was great, though, to compete

against him, to see him come off the bench every time I already knew he was guarding me every time he came off the bench. No matter if Dort was on the floor or not, you know, at times, I knew AC was going to check me just because we got so much history. So that was, that was fun, man. I love that. Everyone has a favorite sports memory. For me, I'll never forget an incredible image from the 2020 FIFA World Cup final. The streets of Buenos Aires empty one minute, everyone glued to their screens, then a minute later, the final whistle blows, and suddenly the streets are flooded with a sea of 1.5 million fans. Absolute euphoria. There are not many things that can bring joy to that many people in one moment. That's the magic of the FIFA World Cup. With big events like the FIFA World

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at go.mx slash platinum dash card. Well, let me switch gears one more time because I don't think we've really had like a definitive Wemby talk. This guy is putting together. Like I think there's a distinction here. I think some fans may not understand how good this guy is and just want to revert back to he's tall.

That's why he's good. But that is an immovable part of the puzzle, but it is a meaningless part of the puzzle if he doesn't have the IQ, the mentality, the work ethic, the skill. Absolutely. Absolutely. He's not the first guy in our league that's been tall.

Right. He's not the first guy in our league that had length or been tall. Like, he's not. So we can nip that in the bud right now, guys. And yes, it is a, it's a, it's a, factor, you know, because it's his length, his size, the way he's able to cover a lot of ground, especially defensively. But when we talk about what he's able to do offensively, his ability

to put the ball on the ground, we've seen him ice on, you know, our defensive player, or multiple defensive player of the year, Rudy Gilbert, multiple times on the perimeter, hitting him with snatchbacks, spins, up and unders, you know, dream shakes, fadeaways. You know, we've seen them, you know, a cross-dribble, step back. out of the corner for three, you know, his ability to catch and his coordination, which sometimes look uncoordinated, but it's because of his length, his ability to catch the ball with his back towards the basket or half of his body and be able to find a rim before he even lands, that is coordination that we've never seen before. And it's not just because he's tall. It's because his, he has

the ability to do things that we haven't seen in our league ever. But his IQ, like you could tell, you could tell by the way he talks, you could tell by his demeanor, like,

you know, he knows the game, he was taught the game the right way. And San Antonio continues to get lucky as fuck with these generational, talented IQ, smart, but like,

listen, keep the man. thing the main thing, you know, David Robinson, Tim Duncan, and now Wimby, like, you know, guys who just, they have this dead serious mentality, you know, they have these blinders, these horse blinders on, and they like, the mission is the mission, and that's all that matters, you know, and, you know, it's pretty remarkable to see. Yeah, I mean, you talked about the offensive skills that are uncanny for his size. Yeah. But I think that the thing is, like, in a sense, like, I think of him in a basketball terms as a teenager. Like, you can see, like,

where this is going in a way because he's going to get, he's already, like you said, it might look awkward at times. It's an incredible feat of coordination, the way he's able to handle at this level, his length and the pace of the game and all that stuff. So he's, as he gets stronger through his hips, as he gets, you know, more reps and he grows into, you know, really his body becoming, you know, a man. Like, I think that is, is something that is, I think you're spot on. That's going to be scared. Spot on. You know, like when he can, like, rip the ball and win that first bump and spin and he's on the rim. And he also is, you've already seen the ability that if he spins and they come early, he can make those passes. So, I mean, there's a problem forming

offensively for sure, but where I've been really impressed is his defense. Clearly the size, but what I love is he's already thinking through it and he knows timing. Like, I could come early because I see this, but if I come early, I open up something behind me. Let me wait. Let me play possum. Let me hide.

I think we have some clips where he literally tries to crouch down behind the primary defender just to bait the guy into shooting and making blocks. So he's quarterbacking. I mean. Yeah, he's just waiting. It's like nobody. He doesn't give Rudy anything, but he doesn't give the ball. He waits and waits and waits until there's no more space.

He takes away to lob, so he's not letting Rudy get behind him. So he takes away to lob all the way up into the last moment where, you know, he's waiting for you to shoot that floater, and he just times it and go gets it. You see how he's hiding? Yep. I mean, that's... That's so sick. That's so sick.

It just shows you he's like baiting this guy. I mean, that's the next level. Yeah, that's the next level. To know the command he has. And he's done that a lot. So some of these couple here, he turns his back. He lets the guy get behind him in a way and then just reappears. So this is a typical drop

where you can keep the ball in front and roll with the big. Oh man. They even try to, you know, Nick Clashkin even tried to get the Gortat screen on him and he still got off of that. He has one more. Where he kind of, like you said, the rules,

he kind of gets spun around. He's playing two and then he's so good, he can go the other way. Whereas most people, you can't give your back to the defender, but he can't reappear.

There it is. That IQ, that feel, that approach, it's pretty scary when he's only going to get more and more dynamic physically. And I think it was great, too, what their coaching staff has done a great job of, of recognizing the talent defensively that he possesses. And even though the regular fan would never recognize some of the, you know, the regular fan would never recognize some of the rules that you never supposed to break in our game, but because they have that, you know, it's just, I know I always mentioned Ed Reed. Like, Ed Reed is like one of the greatest,

if not the greatest safety of all time in NFL history. Of course. And he was allowed to do certain things that nobody else was allowed to do on their team. And it's because of his, how instinctual he was and how smart he was. And Wembe has that same, he has that same approach. Now, their coaches has given him the ability to, if a guy drives and he's in a strong corner, you know, he'll let you almost get by him and then take the ball and hope that you want to shoot it. And the guy that was guarding the ball, he'll just peel to the corner. He won't do it early because there'll be a quick bang, bang, catch and shoot. But he'll do it late because he know he can cover that momentum.

He could cover that time lapse to where you're still not going to get to the rim and still make the shot. Yeah, like their coaching staff is very strategic and very smart because you can look at it like Luke Cornett is almost just as tall as Wemby. Right. Yeah, it's not that much. Not that much. But he does not have the same freedom defensively that Wimby has and it's because of some of the instincts and the athleticism and the movements that Wimby possesses. He moves like a guard and a 7-6, 7-7, whatever the hell. Heidi is framed. You know, so when you have that, it's just, it's generational. You won't see it again like that. Perhaps the most interesting part of that is he wants to do it. Oh, absolutely.

He wants to do it. He wants to, you know, he wants to get stops. He wants to punish you. He wants to dominate down there. Spurs have held opponents to 16 points below their regular season, offensive rating when he's on the floor. Yeah. I mean, 16 points.

I mean, that's crazy. impact. And it's not like the rest of their team are slouches defensively. But even with him on off, it's a totally different ballgame. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like, it's so much more confident. You have so much more confidence picking up 94 feet or getting over screens or hawking the ball or when you know what you have behind you. Like, you know, I mean, I play with Anthony Davis, you know, who was one of the best defensive players I've ever played with in my life. And it just gave us all so much more freedom. Like, you know, gave KCP and myself and Alex Caruso and Kuzma and Rondo.

And it gave us so much more freedom to like, I don't know, gamble sometimes. Like, you know, go on a gamble, like press up in a guy beats us. And when you know AD is behind you, you're like, holy, like, you're good. Like, there's nothing to worry about. You know, and, you know, AD never won a defensive player of the year award, which is crazy, too, still. But Wimby's like another level. Like, you know, AD is great as fucking A.D. was, you know, I think Wimby is even a greater level than any player that we've seen so far defensively. You know, he can do it all.

And he can also guard on the switch. If you ask him to switch, he can guard a guard on a switch throughout the course of a game, too. He's just, he's unbelievable, unbelievable on that end. strategies, tactics would you employ to try to make when be less effective defensively? Would you bring him into the action? Would you come out of the action? Obviously, you got to have the right personnel, you know? And obviously the first thing that goes in my mind is like, can you put five playmakers,

five shooters out on the floor at one time with the size? You know, and a lot of teams don't have that ability, but OKC has that ability. Cleveland has that ability and the Knicks have that ability, where they could put four or five guys on on the floor that can shoot, pass, and dribble. Obviously, that's the first thing that I would say.

So, you know, when teams are, when he's overhelping at times or, you know, they get broken down, guys got to be ready to catch and shoot. And ready to catch and play make right away. Trying to keep him above the break as much as possible, you know, and meaning like, you know, whoever he's defending,

if you have the right personnel, you have to stop, allow him to be the low man. It doesn't matter if it's the strong corner or the weak corner because it's so much easier for him to get there. If you're running a pick and roll, try to keep his man on the high side of the, away from the double side. So if he is trying to track the roller to the rim,

then it's so much more of a longer closeout to get back to the slot or the top of the key. You know, so that's very key to. and then also not being afraid of putting him in actions. Because if you put him in pick and roll actions, you know, with a stretch four or stretch five or two guys that can do multiple things, then he has to guard the ball

and now you take away from his ability to be weak side or whatever case may be if they're in switching groups. You know, so you have to kind of, I don't want to say manipulate because it's not manipulating. It's putting him in positions where not saying, he's going to be less, we're not saying he won't be effective, but he could be less effective than if he were low man or if he was, you know, guarding a five man that all he does is roll, you know, as we saw sometimes, you know, in the Portland series, when he was able to just

to guard guys who just picked the road, he's able to just to play up to touch and then just roll back to the rim and come on, come on, I dare you. So you have to put him in compromising positions where you got to get him thinking that. Oh, shit, if I'll leave, you know, Rui Hachamora, if we was playing him, if I'll leave Rui Hachamora, you know, in the corner, or if I'll leave him at the top of the key because I'm now trying to take D.A. away from rolling, then Rui is going to make you pay because he just shoots the ball so damn good. So, yeah, you have to put him in just like, if you have the personnel, you know,

and, you know, that's what, that will be my suggestion. I think it's a great point. Like, you've got to have at least four shooters. think if you're, you know, to play and Wembe and have any sort of success, then you obviously got have talent and play, making, decision making. I do think the Gortat screen has a place. Yeah. Try to take his legs out. Yeah, I do too. Don't allow him that mobility. And the other one I think is interesting is the dribble under, like when you attack and just

keep your dribble and see what decisions they make. Like, are they switching back? Are they not? And then when you dribble around, can you have a cutter on the weak side? I agree. Where he, like, you know, he either has the gravity to one. But it's not, like, We've just seen him block shots from behind, but I think it's difficult. If he takes the ball handler on a dribble under and someone cuts, that's a really hard. If someone doesn't pick him up, I think it's even hard for when you get back to that, or they pull in from the corner and the shooters open. The other concept, I wonder what your take is, and I think it's probably difficult to manipulate this,

but if he's guarding the ball in a pick and roll, now how can you manipulate to get him there, or do you have a chat-like guy who can handle a little bit, can you screen underneath? and keep him out, you know, almost like Gortot screen him from the screen to the room. Yeah, yeah, you can. You can't. Yeah, you're smart. That's a smart thing you just said. Steve, sorry to cut you off because OKC, which we will see in a series at some point, they do that.

Where it's like a, it's not an angle screen. It's not a send it to the middle screen. It's not sent it to the right or the left. They set flat screens where you have. to navigate because you don't know which way is coming. So they do have the ability. And Hardinstein does a great job of that. Dort does a great job of that. I could see them trying to at times put, you know, Wimby on on Dort or put them on, you know, guys who could be less effective sometimes shooting the ball. But those guys are great screeners as well. So

yeah, we can definitely see that the Gortez screen or just that simple flat screen where you don't which way the ball handler is going to where he has to navigate. Now, that's the one thing about fives. Five men, four men, you know, obviously the four men are a little bit more, you know, they can do it a little bit better, but five men, they have a hard time not switching on to the ball, but also when another action comes towards them. Are they switching? Are they still in coverage? Are they, they have a hard time doing that at a time. So I think, you know, the okay, Casey, Coach of staff is definitely over there thinking of ways and no ways that they're going to try to, you know, explore their defense as much as they can. Obviously, San Antonio and Wimby is great at it.

So, you know, it's going to be a great chess match. It's going to be a great series. I've been waiting for this one. And I can't wait to see all the little adjustments, see how people attack what their approaches are. You know, we always talk about adjustments. But really, it's tweaks on what you do. You know, it's not, you're not, you're not very, very. rarely are you throwing some huge adjustment and it's like our approach to our core principles

is going to change slightly because of personnel or tendency. So that game within the game is going to be unbelievable with the players on display in this next series. It's going to be fun to watch. It's going to be fun to watch. This is the main event right here from the Western Conference, for sure. You know, you have to attack when, but you can't just hide from him the whole time. So sometimes guards, our game's about rim pressure. That's how you break a defense or you put them in rotations, you create advantages. And so I think sometimes we get stuck in between when we see Wembe. We think I'm kind of open now, but it's not a great shot. I go a little further. I think dribbling around, making him turn his hips, making him follow you out the other side and having someone

cut behind you and replace. I do think there's a place where as great as he is, as he has blocked shots with his back to the ball. I think that's a high demand to receive a penetrator. And we're talking high-level guards. You know, like it's got to be someone that has multiple weapons, but he's got to receive that guard, take away the rim, he dribbles under, now he's got to turn his hips. So the Nash dribble, is that what you're talking about, the Nash dribble? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, you know, he doesn't want to say it because of how humble he is, but yeah, the Nash dribble, yeah, a. I mean, yeah, the dribble under, aka the Nash dribble. He doesn't want to say it, yeah. Some, some of said it. Some have said it before.

The, I know exactly what he meant. The Nash dribble. Exactly. I'll get the t-shirts printed up, fellas. The Nash dribble. Thanks for watching, mind the game. New episodes drop every other Tuesday. Remember to like, subscribe, or follow wherever you're watching.