Mind the Game - Playoffs

Episode Date: April 22, 2025

The NBA Playoffs have begun and Mind the Game is here to break down the different between regular season basketball and postseason basketball. In this episode, LeBron James and Steve Nash discuss the schemes and game planning that goes into playoff basketball and the general characteristics of a successful playoff team. They also talk adjustments, counter adjustments and what happens when a team is out of tricks. Plus LeBron reveals the most mentally grueling playoff series he’s ever played in. Thanks for watching and Happy Playoffs!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I'm ordered a biggest steak, dude. You're in the right place for it. I'm telly. I'm jolly. I got some, take a couple of bottles of red wine with me too. There's a great Western store, a couple of blocks from the hotel. Yeah, I heard about this wine place too, Evan. Yeah.

Not bad. Welcome to Mind the Game, brought to you by Uninterrupted and Wondery. This episode, we dive into the playoffs. What's different, what's unique? What are the challenges that the playoff basketball presents to NBA players and teams? Bron James, myself, two guys that have played in a bunch of playoff games, and kind of seen it all. So I hope you enjoy this conversation. Please subscribe if you haven't, and we'll see you next time.

Mind the game. Yes, sir. Cheers. Cheers to you. Yes, sir. I think it would be great for us to talk about the playoffs. It's always a great conversation. Shared experiences.

And really just kind of lay out for the average fan. What the playoffs are like and the difference between the playoffs and the regular season. You know, the number one difference. I think you see it immediately is the intensity. Intensity, for sure. Right? Yeah, for sure. I think that's what makes the game great.

You know, but there's, it's more than just physical intensity. It's a mental battle. Yeah. You know, maybe we start by talking about a time or a series where you felt was exhausting. It was exhausting, wow. Mentally or physically challenging or exhausting. Yeah. And obviously I've been in so many.

But I think one that comes to mind would be, obviously, you know, 2012 Eastern Conference Finals versus Boston. You know, I was in Miami and obviously, you know, the Boston had their big three. And I always say the big four because Rondo was so damn good as well. And we go down three, two after losing a home game, you know, going into Boston, which is one of the places that you just don't want to be going there for a closeout game. You know, and for us to be able to go in there in game six and we know what happened in game six and us to be able to come back to South Beach and win in game seven. But like you just said, how you say it in the beginning, you know, obviously you know the physical toll. You know the, you know already know what, you know, KG is bringing to the game, his intensity.

You know, you know what Rondo's bringing to the game and the rest of that group. They just brought so much out of you. Right. Not only from a physical toll, but from a mental toll. standpoint too, you know, because they have so many guys out there that can do so many things. So at the end of that series, you was just like, I just want to sleep. And I'm not going to be able to. You know that. You're not going to. You're not going to time anyway. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, it just takes so much out of you mentally. Do you, I mean,

you being the head of the snake, too, they're going to throw everything at you. Yeah, absolutely. They're going to change matchups. They're going to throw different defenses now you can you talk a little bit about that like always having to think for your team as a career yeah yeah absolutely and obviously that that comes with preparation even before the series it comes with preparation before the series it comes with um getting into the film you know really actually really breaking it down now seeing you know ways they've guarded players ways they've guarded you throughout the regular season you know how many different ways are can they switch it up you know and also just always being ready you know and you know like you said you know me being ahead of the snake you

have to always be ready you know and because they they could guard you one way in the first quarter you know they can switch it up in the second quarter guard you away different way in the third and in the fourth quarter could be totally different so you always have to be aware of of the matchups of the of the calls of the way they're guarding you how they're guarding you in the post how they're going on pick and roll how they're garning you on iso situations you know that that That is also mentally draining as well. But, you know, if you're ready and you're prepared, you put yourself already above the curve as well. You know, so when it comes to the mental side, you're able to be like, okay, I'm ready for this.

I'm ready for that. And sometimes it takes a couple games, too, in a series. You know, you can do all to study in and all that, you know, sometimes it takes a game or two to get into the series. They'd be like, okay, now I'm ready. Now I'm fully prepared. You know, I knew I was ready, but now I'm fully, fully, fully. engaged and fully fully prepared on what's that hand right i always remember playing against the spurs a lot yeah man and uh you know it's tough usually put a big wing on me uh they got timmy at the rim

usually back in those days they had two two big guys at a seven foot or next to timmy pop us on under shrink the floor sometimes he'd stay at home you know that was one of the things that he and i knew he was fucking with me yeah is that he would stay at home so that i couldn't throw the ball around the gym yeah and he knew i won't wanted to. And just playing that mental game. And I know what he's doing and I'm trying to find the right balance and not, you know, hit my head against the wall.

That's exhausting, right? Trying to do what's right for your team, but then also do what's right for you attacking the defense. Yeah, yeah. For that game. That game. It could change. Right, right, right.

Could change by the possession, the quarter, kind of timeout, or it could change later. You know, I think it's interesting because numerically the playoffs aren't, don't look that much different than the regular season. But they're so different, right? Like I got some numbers here. You know, when you talk about like points per possession, you know, they go down a point and a half. Right. Right.

Now you could say that's nothing. Still, margins, margins, right? You know, that's an average. Effective field goal percentage, you know, goes down a point and a half. You know? Something. They all add up, right. But where it does actually show is pace, you know, goes from 985 to 926 in 2023-24.

You know, true shooting percentage goes from 580 to 566. The other one that's kind of a larger margin is assists. Assists go down. Is this go down? I mean, we could talk a little bit about that, but it's essentially what happens is these are intense scouts. You are taking people out of what they want to do. There you go.

You said it right there. Assists go down because ultimately a role player can win or lose you a game. And when it comes to coaching and you get from one round to the first round, second round, conference finals, finals, there are certain guys that can win you a game. And when it comes to coaching, they're going to say, Steve is going to do what Steve does. Luca's going to do what Luca does. LeBron going to do what LeBron does. Kevin Durant is going to do what Kevin Durant does.

But it's that guy or that guy. In their wins, he averages this. And there are losses, he averages this. That's where, that's the assist, because myself, you, Luca, guys that we know we need our teammates. We know in order for us to really reach our pinnacle, we have to make sure that these guys are super engaged on the offensive end as well. Because they're going to defend the hell out of the ball. They're going to be scrappy. They're going to run through a wall for us.

But we need them to make those timely shots. And that's where the, that's where the chess game comes in. Right. You know, and I think that's what you're saying, you know, the sets going down because now coaches are saying, okay, that guy and wins and that guy in losses, we got to be able to try to take him out. That's right. You know, it's interesting. It's not just the intensity and focus of the scouts. It's also the intensity of the play.

Now, there's no more back-to-backs, you know, especially the first round gets stretched out a bit. So it's less travel. Less travel. You're staying in the city for two games. Yeah. So all these things allow, and life or death. Yeah, it's a basketball playing. It's a first 16 wins.

It's not 82. Fighting for your life. Yeah. So you throw all the fatigue away, you know. And that's not to, you know, diminish what we do in the regular season. But, like, it's a lot of games. Yeah, I mean, you go from, it would be the same if a runner, you know, hey, for six months, you know, you're running a marathon. Right.

Six, eight months, you're training for the marathon. Trying to get through it. You're just trying to get through it. You're running a marathon for eight months. On the back end for those last two months, now you're running a sprint. You are running a 100 meter yard dash. That's what it comes to.

That's what it comes to. And we know we're all gearing up. We're all gearing up. And it's no knock on a regular season, but you know, you're gearing that up. You're gearing everything up to get to that point where now, you know, it's 100 meter yard dash, 200 meter. Like it's like, we get into it right now.

There's no tomorrow. Your comment about, like, sometimes it might take you a few games to get into a series. Well, part of that is because the physical intensity of the defense, you've seen them in the regular season, but if they're going to blitz you in the playoffs, that is a different blitz. That is a different blitz. That is a different blitz. That is physical. That is hands. That is body, feet, everything, taking away space.

So, like, that sometimes is an adjustment. Yeah, and the referees allow it a little bit more, too. Physical. You know. I've always equated, like, the regular season to the playoffs is, like, playing an NBA. to now playing the Olympics. Right. It takes a couple games playing in the Olympics for you to get to the point was like, oh, they're allowing us to play a little bit more physical.

Yeah. Oh, I actually like this, but I need a game or two to actually get to it. Right. You know, and that's how the regular season to the playoffs is. The refs allow it, and I love it. And I love when you can be more handsy, you can be more physical and, you know, and it's not, the whistle is not blown as frequently. Right. You know, so like you said, it takes a couple games because if you've been, if you've been training your body and been playing a certain way for eight months and then all of a sudden, within one week, you have to now go into the postseason where everything is more physical, everything is faster, everything is more intensified.

It may take a game. It may take, hopefully it doesn't take two games because then you can lose a damn series that way. But it may take a game. It may take two quarters. It may take three quarters for you to get into it. But you're hoping that you're the team that it takes less amount of time to get to that than the other team of your opponent's your plan. Yeah, for sure.

I mean, there's the physical intensity, obviously, with the scheduling, being in the city longer, all that stuff. There's the focus scouts. You know, we all take time to understand what's the style of play in this team. What are the actions they run? What do they do side out of bounds, end out of bounds, end the game, get in plays. You know, what's their philosophy on fouling? All sorts of things.

Go into it. What are our schemes? What suits our style of football? against them. You know, what are their schemes? How do we attack them? So there's a lot of studying that goes on. Tendencies, taking tendencies away.

So there's the physical intensity, there's the mental intensity, right? Like that, those two things combine make it completely different. And by the way, it's the most fun that you'll ever have in life. Oh, yeah, for sure. Right? It's the most. Rets aren't calling as much. You're fighting.

And then there's the component of you're going to see the same guys four to seven times. So it gets a little bit personal. Yeah, it does. Yeah, it gets a little bit personal. We're all proud. We're going out there. You know, there's another part of this that's really important. It's the human side, right?

We've talked about before. But that emotional roller coaster of, you know, you go and play a team and you beat them, you beat them handily, you feel like you're never going to lose again. You know, a team beats you and you've got no answers. You feel like you're never going to win again. That's never really the truth. Never. Very rarely the truth.

Can you talk a little bit about your approach with your teams, you know, in that roller coaster of the players and trying to keep your team even keel? How do you lead? How do you manage them? You just said it. You said it perfectly, man. Just like, until you get four wins, it's never over. Right.

It's never over. And I know we've never in NBA history had a team come back from 3-0, but it's always a chance. You know, I've seen it in other sports. I've seen it in baseball. I've seen it in baseball, series, guys come back down 3-0, it's going to happen. So until you win four games in a postseason, it's not over so it doesn't matter if you you go on the road you start on the road and you beat the team by 25 game one game two is

gonna be the hardest game that you have to play they're mad they're sitting at home they're pissed about the game that they lost what they didn't do well how they didn't play well the coaches is on their asses they embarrassed that next game is going to be the hardest game and you have to stay even kill you have to get your friends and family out of your ear you have to get off of social media because they're gonna everybody's gonna praise the shit out of you like you just won the greatest thing of all time and you have to be able to just get away from it all.

Are you intentional with that with your teammates? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You're like, guys, cut out the noise, cut out distractions. Super intentional. Next game's going to be the hardest game. Super intentional. I think it's important. As you know on a team, you've got guys all different ages.

Yep. All different experiences. Mindsets, emotional, toll. So you might have a young guy that doesn't know any better. You might have an old guy that maybe hasn't played as much and now you need them. You've got all these different factors trying to bounce.

I think it's so important to talk through sometimes because it's human nature. We feel good. We feel overconfident. They feel like their backs against the wall. It happens so many times.

Talk about never, no one's ever come back from 3-0. I almost got beat. We almost got beat. When I played for Dallas, we played Portland, we're up 3-0.

We had to win game 7 at home. You know, luckily we were able to play at home in Dallas. But like, it was this close from happening. So anything can happen in the series. which leads to a little bit about the preparation, intensity, and then the adjustments.

So you go into a series, you have a game plan, you have a way of playing, and it's about balancing who are we, who are they, how do we attack them, how do they attack us, how do we stay true to who we are, while also playing them in the prism of how we can take things away from them.

Right, right. And I mean, you know, it's funny because, you know, we talk about the regular season, but the regular season is you building up the habits that's right to get to the postseason you're hoping that you've discussed and went over and have instilled enough habits to this is where we're going to lean on in the playoffs and it's going to get a little bit more fine-tuning it's going to a little bit more intricate and how we do things but you're hoping that you build those habits now who we are is who we are agreed

but the best teams in the postseason is the ones that can make adjustments on the fly things are not going great an IQ team now we're not saying to throw the whole damn thing out and throw it in the trash but to be able to just to fine tune this or maybe to switch this up and be it able to make adjustments on the fly give them a different look give them a different look I always say it's so much easier to be a Monday Monday morning quarterback you know we look we we we lose the game on Sunday and everyone in their mama and daddies can go break down the film and say oh well this we should have did this is what we should have did okay

All right, everybody, calm down. Absolutely, you're absolutely right. But to be completely honest, how can we do it on the fly as well? And I think the greatest teams that we've seen, no matter if they've won it or not, because there's a lot of things that go into winning and they're losing, but the greatest teams, I believe, has been none of the ones that be able to make adjustments on the fly from one game to the next game and also still having that court to build over the last eight months. Right.

You know, it's interesting you talk about teams, like there's like that human element. element too is, you know, I think great teams have, like teams that win championships get to finals, they have similar characteristics. You know, you have a leader. You have a hierarchy. Essentially means people understand their role. They try to start the role. They sacrifice for their role. You have IQ. You have resilience, toughness. And really toughness, like it's going to be physical in the playoffs, but the toughness is really mental. Yeah, for sure. It's mental. You can't give an inch. You can't forget a play. You can't forget a rotation. You have to be sharp. You have to be early. You know, all those things that just make the little different.

is because the margins are so fine. You know, I think it's fascinating to see how often you get to the finals, two smart teams, two mentally strong teams, two teams that can make decisions on the fly. You've played on some of those teams. Talk about maybe some of your Miami teams the way you're able, or the Lakers team

and one in the bubble, like how you guys were able to make quick adjustments, read off each other and use your IQ to solve problems. No, like you said, I mean, you know, once you get to the finals, it's, like you said, two high IQ teams, the best players are on the floor. Everyone knows what that team is going to do.

I know what you're going to do. You know what I'm going to do. And the margin is obviously how can we get into a game and execute with them knowing what we're doing, but also how can we make adjustments that they may not know work making? That's the mental. A while to recognize why they've changed something.

Yeah, that you've changed something. They said, oh, and you hope that it takes a game, if not a game, maybe a full quarter, maybe even two possessions. Yeah, steal two. Yeah, if you can steal two possessions in the postseason, in a postseason game, especially in the finals, that can win you that trophy. Because it's, you just, you see it all the time, how the game comes down to one or two possessions. Right.

You know, and it's not because, you know, okay, both teams are that equal yeah of course you know you have to want easier conference team we've gotten there to want Western Conference team that's there but it can literally come down to like one adjustment here that they didn't see or we didn't see you know and I've been part of I've been been able to be a part of you know four championship teams where there were times we made small adjustments you know and we made plays late game you know or late in the third quarter you know that that the end of that third quarter that you could ride that momentum

it to the fourth right you know yeah just just shifts small shifts you know and like you said the biggest the biggest thing that i know for sure that i've had in my four championship teams we had guys that one knew their role to a t and we were very smart we were very smart high IQ guys high IQ guys and we could really really just make adjustments on the fly you know my miami teams can make adjustments on the fly. We could play two bigs at times. We could play one big at time. We could blitz pick and rolls. We could switch picking rolls. You know, we could show, we could show and peel. You know, we could blitz and the guy that's coming out of the blitz, don't even run back to the hole. He could just peel to the top of the, top of the key.

Yeah, we read each other. It's the communication. My team in Cleveland, we could do the same thing. We could play Tristan and Kevin Love together at times. If we didn't, we could play Channing and RJ at the four and five. We spread everybody out. Now we can switch. a lot of, you know, things. You know, and obviously my, you know, my team in 2020 with the Lakers, we could play two bigs with Dwight and Javel, or we could play 80 at the five. You know, we could bring, we had so many, Sarban, got myself and Rondo could be on the court at the same time with Alex Cruz.

You know, now we got these, we're not only thinking the game, we're also mastering the game while we're out on the floor. So it takes a lot, you know, to win a championship. And it's not easy. But damn, it makes it a lot smoother when you know you have guys out there that's on the same wavelength or even close to the same wavelength. If I could look at you and be like, you know, was no need to be said. Right. And some of that comes from experience.

Absolutely. It's hard. Collective experience. That's why, like, for example, you're first year in Miami. You guys losing the finals. Yeah. A big part of that for me is collective experience is being there before together having those collective scars where you see in someone's eyes we're going to be. fine. You're down in game three, 13 points in the third quarter and you say, we're going

to be fine. Whereas if you haven't had that collective experience, those are going to be trying moments. Yeah, for sure. You start to question everything. Start questioning yourself. You start question the guy that you haven't been in the foxhole with it enough. You know, it's just human nature. You know, if you haven't been in those experiences enough, you don't know what to fall back on. And, you know, my experience, my second year in Miami, you know, losing that that year before, gave me enough experience to know how to handle adversity even more you know how to go into Boston for a game six down three two and everybody is saying it this is over you know how to come back in 2016 after losing in 2015 you know and how to

handle adversity being down 3-1 right because of the things I've learned over the course of the past you know and having those moments with my teammates to be able to be like we're fine and they believe that no matter how large the obstacle is for us to come to overcome yeah they believe it you know as someone who's always looking for that next rush whether it's driving the lane or threading the needle we get it you need that excitement and let me tell you I've found it in Audible. No joke. These audiobooks have me on the edge of my seat, whether on a long drive or in a recovery session. From heart-pounding thrillers to epic adventures, these stories

have you on the edge of your seat like you're right in the middle of the action. They've got these Audible originals that are absolutely amazing, plus all the bestsellers you've been meaning to check out. The best part, you can get started with a free 30-day trial at audible.com. Audible knows there's no greater thrill out there than yours. Discover what lies beyond the edge of your seat on Audible. free trial on audible.com slash game and dive into a world of new thrills. That's audible.com slash G-A-M-E. You know, I also think like the first round while it can be battles, it can be level. A lot of times that playoffs change every round a little bit.

Absolutely. Especially by the time you get to the finals. Oh yeah. A little anecdotes, but like you often see benches shrink every round. You know, a team might try to play nine, sometimes even 10 in the first round, next round it's down to nine or eight, next round is down to seven sometimes when you get deep in the playoffs. You know, it can also change in other ways, but like one of the examples is, you know, who's going to blink first? You know, you start a playoff series, but if you're the one seed playing the eight seed, for example, oftentimes the eight seats already blinked before it started.

We're going to try something to take something away for you. You know, I always think of basketball framing in a way of like basketball is about creating and exploiting space and constricting. space. Offensively, you want to create space and exploit it, make it difficult for the defense. Defensively, you want to take space away. How can you do that? Now, we go through roster, composition, style of play, everything that's got to fit, chemistry, all those things. But as you get deeper in the playoffs, I think you notice, like, for example, you get to the finals, now it's a blinking contest because both teams feel like they're coming with their

fastball. And then it's who's going to blink first and make the first adjustment. Now another point I want to make and hear your thoughts on is also the Monday morning quarterback comment like not all adjustments work oh absolutely people think we're just going to plug this in and it's going to work yeah absolutely not a lot of adjustments don't work right and to your point a lot of adjustments aren't big we're going to blitz pick and roll it's I need your feet to be here right on this rotation or in this trap or whatever it is it's micro adjustments that make all the difference in the world you having been in the finals can you talk a little bit

about that first blink and what that's like for a team to either be the the one the blinks and changes and how that can change things for you or it can be an admission of a fear already something yeah i mean listen i've been in in finals where i felt like the opponent was just more worthy you know um i mean my first time going to the finals in 2007 you you mentioned the spurs you know it's not when you when you play the spurs not only are you trying to defeat the Hall of Fame players, you're also trying to defeat the Hall of Fame coach. Can I stop you there? Like, was Papa spy in the military? Like, I'm serious. He spoke Russian. Yeah. He came from the Air Force Academy. Yeah, for sure. Like, I think he was on his way

to be an agent for the United States government. And you're trying to win a basketball game against him. Yeah, for sure. I always felt like there was a little bit of a disadvantage or a hill we were trying to climb just No, for sure. You can sense it like, okay, I have the guard Tony, Manu, Timmy, and then, you know, you see, okay, maybe they may be a little tired of this quarter, maybe, and then you look to the sideline and you got pop over there and he's like, he's like on the floor as well, but standing on the sideline, you know, so when it comes to like who blinks and. Well, I think before you get to the blink, they never beat themselves.

No. Oh, never. So your point, prior, their habits. Yeah. They were resolute about their habits, so they never beat themselves. And that is exhausting for the other team. Yeah, absolutely. You know when you come into a series, you know, versus Greg Pavlovich team, versus Bill Belichick

football team, you know we have to beat them. Right. They're not going to beat themselves. You know that. you already mentally drained before you even get into it. It's like you start to put more pressure on yourself saying we got to play perfect basketball. Right. Which is impossible.

Right. But you put that extra pressure on you because you like, you know they're not going to beat themselves. So that's where we talked about the blinking game. It starts right then and there. That's a great point. You know, it starts right then and there saying, okay, how can we make the greatest team or the greatest players at this moment because this is what the finals is all about these two teams that's endured adversity have withstand you know the long marathon of a season and now have put

themselves in a position where the the sprint happened and they're still here how can you make them blink and how can you see and know there's maybe a little small chink in armor and once it happened it's like a fighter you know in the 10th round who's been going blow for blow, and he finally sees that other fighter kind of stumbles and hit the ropes. We've all been there. We've all been there.

And I've been on both sides. Both sides. I've been on both sides. I've been the fighter that hit the ropes and was staggering and maybe hit the ground, standing eight count, whatever. And I've also been the other one that's pressed the fighter into the corner.

Right. You know, and that's just the challenge. That's just how it goes. It's a great example or a great portal into leadership too, though, because when you're the team that's stumbling, you know, standing A count, that to me is what great leadership is. It's not the talking, it's not 30 and 10, it's reliability in your approach mentality, fight, and spirit. You've got to be able to win when you don't have your fastball. You know, you don't have your best stuff. You've got to find

a way to win as a leader, and you have to try to drag your team and make them believe that we can win even if we don't have our best stuff so it's often there's all there's adjustments happening then there's standing a count and then there's they overcome that now the series has changed again talk to me a little bit about you know usually a team blinks there's an adjustment then there's a counter adjustment and then at some point the adjustments stop and it might be after those first two and we go back to let's do what we do best we do and now it's back to like who wants it more and all those things, the spirit, the connectivity, the will. The will.

Now the game is about that. We know each other too well. We've made the adjustments. You're not going back there. We got over that. We're not going back here. You got over that. Now it's just back to who I want.

Yeah, you almost look like you're competing versus yourself at that point. Right? Yeah. You're basically looking in the mirror. Like, I am competing versus myself. I will not give up. And I can't until it's over and done with and zero's in that clock. I am competing versus myself.

It's not even me and you anymore. It's not even about the opponent. He knows exactly what the hell I want to do. I know exactly what he want to do. I know the sets. I know the commands. I know the calls. I know everything.

How can I... How can I not allow myself to waver too much to the left, too much to the right, too much up, too much down? How can I stay right here? focus and as that leader of the team also project that to the guys yeah you know that that is the ultimate when it comes to those moments right there yeah that's the

ultimate man I would give anything to be here she was right now it's got right around the core back to the playoffs the best time of the year listen at this point in my career like I mean regular season is fun it's cool all right but I just only only care about the playoffs it's a drug yeah like the moment, you know, I'm all about the process and I will always be about the process. And to get to this point, but the postseason when you have an opportunity, all you, if you have a chance to win it and you know you have the team to have a chance, it doesn't always result into winning it.

But if you have a chance and you know you have a fighting chance to walk into this ring and say, we can beat anyone. We can beat anyone, you know. We know we have to play closest to perfect basketballs, you know, obviously we know. that and takes a lot of luck in the postseason, you know, we understand that, but, you know, when it comes to playoff basketball, man, it's definitely a drug for sure. To me that's adapting to pressure. Once you have faced pressure and succeeded, it's intoxicating.

Now like you always want more stakes. It's like in the regular season, you come alive in a close game down the stretch of the fourth quarter it do it you're a different person slightly than the first three quarters right we're human but that part of it is what I I would give anything to go back and be able to play in the playoffs because the pressure the feeling of everything being on the line at 40 you 22 like what tell me about that you still have that in your life yeah I think I think you just said it until you overcome the pressure moment you you have no idea of you can

do it. Right. It's kind of terrifying. Right. You're getting to those pressure moments and it's like, I don't know if I can overcome this or I don't know if this is too big for me or whatever the case may be, however, you know, the human body or the human mind tricks you. And then you're able to do that and then you're able to stack that and do it again and

do it again and do it again. And it doesn't always result to win, loss, or draw. It's just a moment of succeeding something that you didn't believe at times or didn't think you can overcome. And back to your question, for me to be at this point in my career, you know, two decades plus into this and still have an opportunity to play in the postseason and know that I'm a big part of the puzzle. it is worth losing sleepover.

And I'm a guy who we talk about this a lot. Take care of your body, sleeping. For two months, if I'm lucky enough, I am okay with losing sleepover. Yeah, best time of the year. Best time of the year. It's interesting, like that kind of coming of age as a playoff performer, the pressure overcoming.

Like you said, you're not sure you can do it. doubts. I mean, maybe ignorance is bliss. For some players, they don't know any big, it's irrational confidence. But, you know, people that take on a lot of responsibility are feeling everything responsible for the team, the fans, you know, all that stuff. It can be a lot. And you overcome it. I think, like, to try to message that to young players. One of the ways I like to think of it is, like, there's two outcomes. I think this is like the art of war type stuff, but there's live or die, right? There's win or lose. You know, once you've realized you've died a thousand deaths. Like, we've both lost battles. We've lost many battles. So once you

realize you've died a thousand deaths, what's one more? Right. So like, you can risk it all again because you've already lost. You've already been there. So I think there becomes this like these scars build up where you're not afraid to lose anymore. You're just going for it. You know, and I think that's the type of mentality you see when people succeed in pressure situations is that they're okay with the losing. They're okay with it. I'm willing to take this shot, make this play, do this thing in this moment because I've died a thousand times. Yes, and you know you're prepared. Exactly.

You know you're prepared. Missing a shot at the end of the buzzer or losing a game or whatever the case may be. You prepared yourself for this moment. You know you've given everything that you had to the moment. You're going to be able to sleep better years from there because you know, listen, I committed everything I had to, to the moment, and there's nobody that could take that away from it. Right. That's why you leave no stone under you.

Why you leave no stone unturned, that's why you're a process over outcome, why you do all the things you do for the body, the mind, skills, the film work, because you don't want to fail in one of those moments ago. Maybe I should have, you know, taking more shots, slept more. And now you're done and you're looking back on something that you can't get back. You know, another part about great teams is versatility, especially in today's game, you know, like, you know, in the old days, you know, we, you had much more of a roster. constructed of six foot to six two point guards, seven foot centers, and power forwards. Now it's like we've kind of compressed all that, right? It's like as many wings, positionless. Yeah, positionless.

So you're talking IQ, you're talking guard multiple positions, you're talking guys that can play blender. You know, the versatility, like you said, to be able to make adjustments on the fly, to read and react. All these assets mean a lot in playoff basketball. And you talk a little bit about versatility and how that can change a series when it's like, the last card to play yeah you know and I think who've mastered at is uh over over the last like 10 years is golden state and the main reason is because of draymond green when we played them in 2015 in the finals i believe they started the series off i believe it was either boget or david lee was starting at the center you know and you know obviously we was out

without Kevin Love and unfortunately Kyrie got hurt in overtime of game one. Kevin had a concussion? Kevin separated shoulder. Yep and Kyrie dislocated his kneecap. But we end up going up two, we ended up going up to one. And because of Draymond and because of Igadala and because of Sean Livingston, it gave them the dynamic in game four. Dremont started at the five.

Eagerdala started at the four we stayed Pat with our lineup of you know Tristan and Timothy Moskhov myself J.R. Smith and I believe Delvedova I believe Matt Delhi and it changed the landscape of their team right and until and it's still to this day the versatility that Draymond allows Steve in that franchise to have it makes them who they are And obviously we know Steph does, you know, it goes back to Steph going to do what Steph does. You know, and I think that's what the game of basketball is to be able to have that versatility to be able to have six, seven guys that can play big or be able to switch out on guards, you know, having, you know, six five, six four, six eight, six nine across the board to be able to make you so versatile that you always keep the defense or keep the other team. bet because there's some teams that just won't change or they don't have the

versatility package to be able to do it you know so that is huge yeah I mean they traditionally were happy to start with the center but what they were saying at this point is we're gonna play our last card yeah we play our last car take that off the table with draymond a five so immediately Maasgov has to guard the playmaker yeah Drey Ma's the playmaker and then defensively they can switch yeah and now okay if you want to go to Mozgov in the post they're not going to you in the right right so they've now played that card by playing at the entire game their death lineup and so now it's a

blanket contest are you able to stick with it or are you going to have to go to the point five? I think they showed the league a lot. I mean, we did it obviously in Miami our second year when Spott was a genius to be able to move Bosch to the five. You know, we played big early on with Joel Anthony and Chris Bosch or Eudonis has them and Chris Bosch. You know, and I think when Bosch went to the five, it gave us some versatility as well. you know being more athletic being a lot long being able to open up the

court a lot more so CB could hit the hit the three the corner three you know you know and that's that's the game that's the game to be able to have those dynamics but I mean you look at Boston Boston wanted you know by how versatile they are you know when they added Drew Holiday it made them so much more dynamic right obviously the growth of Jason and Jalen you know but they're going to be who they are yeah but to be able to add a guy like Drew Holiday, who is basically a Swiss Army knife, you tell him, what do you need, what do you need, coach? All right, I got it. You know, and that, to be able to have those dynamics and

have those players, as a coaching staff, that's something that you dream of to be able, because every series in the postseason is different. That's right. Okay, maybe we need to play bigger this postseason and this series. Okay, now this series requires to be more fast. Okay, now this need to be more physical. Now we need to be really down in to be able to have those cards. Yes. To be able to play, you know, an Uno. I always got to draw four cards.

Always got it. You know, you say Uno, I'm right here, I'm ready. I'm as soon as you say Uno, I'm throwing this draw four down. That is the luxury, that's the luxury. And that is the model having more positionless players. I mean, you can even talk about what's Golden State starting it, the way Boston plays now. I mean, obviously Porzingis, when he plays is a stretch five

and protect the rim, but when he doesn't play, they're still a positionless basketball, five point cards playing. Blender, lots of threes. Same, in a sense, you can make it a comparison to your Lakers team with AD going to the five winning a championship. You could go positionally big,

but you could also go with a center and AD next to him. You look at this OKC team. They not only have all sorts of guys that can switch guard multiple positions, but can play Blender, make open shots, or they can go with the two bigs, with Hardinstein. So you're talking about the top teams,

same with Cleveland. Same with the two bigs. They have Mobley at the five or Jared Allen playing right beside them. Yeah, absolutely. Optionality. And one of the cards has to be able to switch, the other card is being able to go a little bigger. You know, those cards, not everyone has.

Not everyone has. And that is a luxury. That's right. And then you get to the leadership, hierarchy, the resilience, toughness, the IQ. And that's what it is. It's the teams that have the profile on the roster, that have the buy-in, that have the leadership, the hierarchy, the resilience, the mental toughness. That's who you see in the finals every year. There you go.

Well, to the Lakers, appreciate it. In your 22nd journey. I appreciate it. Looking forward to it. The whole season coming up. Thanks for watching Mind the Game. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe for more content. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you.