Mind the Game - The 2024 Conference Finals

Episode Date: May 22, 2024

Welcome to Episode 8 of the Mind the Game podcast with JJ Redick and LeBron James. We have a fantastic show for you all today covering all things 2024 NBA Playoffs. First up, we discuss Bronny James going through the combine and the NBA draft process and what it's like for LeBron as a father. Then we dive into the NBA Playoffs - starting with a conversation around the MVPs of these playoffs - the role players. Guys like Naz Reid, P.J. Washington, T. J. McConnel and more. Then we dive into the Eastern Conference Finals between Tyrese Haliburton and the Indiana Pacers and Jayson Tatum and the Boston Celtics. We discuss why the Celtics are so difficult to guard and how Indiana makes defenses uncomfortable. Then we dive into the Western Conference Finals between Anthony Edwards, Karl-Anthony Towns and the Minnesota Timberwolves and Luka Doncic, Kyrie Irving and the Dallas Mavericks. LeBron and JJ discuss Ant and Luka's ability to go away from ballscreens like Dwyane Wade and how the Wolves make the court smaller with their defense. Finally, LeBron weighs in on the hate Caitlin Clark has gotten so far in the WNBA with the Indiana Fever.Subscribe to Mind the Game with LeBron James and JJ Redick YouTube channel today for more NBA insight, analysis, highlights and more.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Follow the best idea yet on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. Are we like ready? Because JJ has the hard 45 minutes out. Sounds speed. It's probably going to dent a little bit, but who cares? It's like poking out of a button for, right? It's like a dead to you, right there. Yeah, I see, like here and here.

Exactly. We're recording. Oh, I made the pod. I'm trying to help you. You haven't put me on your pod yet. Yeah, like that. All right, you're good, Jason. Welcome to Mind the Game with LeBron James and J.J. Reddick brought to you by Uninterrupted and Three, Four, Two productions. This is episode eight. We discuss everything about the conference finals. In particular, we talk about the identity of these four teams, the importance of role players in the NBA playoffs. We have a discussion on Caitlin Clark. We have a discussion on

Ronnie James. There is a few technical things we talk about in this episode. A lot of this stuff we have discussed before. So you can always reference previous intros and previous episodes for any of the lexicon that we may discuss in this episode. There's a few things I want to just break down real quick. This will be quick. I promise you. And this is just pick and roll coverages. This is more of a refresher than anything. Ball handler here. defender here, screener here, defender here, all right, drop coverage, drop coverage, okay? Drop coverage, this defender right here is going to sit back sometimes in the paint and play drop coverage, which just means he's dropping towards the basket. Very simple, drop coverage. I always say this

about definitions of basketball concepts. A lot of times, it's just simply in the word. So up to touch is another coverage. Up to touch means the defender is up to touch as the ball handler comes off. This is different than a blitz, which is more aggressive. There's also a soft blitz, which is interchangeable with up to touch. The other concept we talk about a bunch actually is hedges. A lot of NBA teams don't do this anymore, but if you are target hunting, if you are trying to create a mismatch and get a switch, a lot of teams will do this.

We saw this a ton in the Indiana, New York series, where this offensive player with the ball is Jalen Brunson, so I'm going to circle him. This offensive player could be Josh Hart, could be Miles McBride. they're being guarded by Tyrese Halliburton right here. Okay, that is the defender. A hedge, this screener is being set, Jalen Brunson's coming off. Tyrese Halliburton is actually going to get higher than the level of the ball, and he's going to try to reroute Jalen Brunson around him. And what that does is, if Tyrese Halliburton is here,

and Jalen Brunson goes around, this screen is being set, here we go. Jaylen Brunce's defender, in this case, Aaron Neesmith, let's say, he can get back in front of the ball. What we talk about in this episode is sort of opportunities for the screener against a hedge to roll or slip into space. So again, as this guy's coming off and Tyrese Halliburton or whoever hedges, the screen are slipping into space. and you've now created that four-on-three that we always talk about on the backside. If you have a great shooter, as an example, this was LeBron James on the Lakers. This is KCP. This is LeBron James.

KCP is going to set that pistol or 21 action that we had talked about in a previous episode as LeBron's coming off here. KCP, his man is going to... Hedge out. And KCP is going to slip into space. I had to guard this action a lot. It wasn't fun. In KCP may or may not have hit a couple threes on me. The other thing we talk about is driveaways. Love driveways. This is Dwayne Wade over here. Here's his defender. There is a screener. And as this guy comes to screen, remember Dwayne Wade in the aughts in the 2000s, early 2010, sometimes this was still a hedge. So we talk about the idea of dribbling away or rejecting a stream, driving away in order to get away from that second defender. So Dwayne Wade would

set it up with a little jab step and he'd get baseline on that left side. Almost impossible to guard. And the last concept, which we're going to do on this side of the board, because we need the full court, is just a very simple concept. It's intuitive in the name. The advance pass. This can happen on a make. It can happen on a miss. Nicola Yokic gets a defensive rebound here.

This is KCP out. There's defenders back. This is not meant to necessarily lead to a layup or an open shot, but it's just a quick advance pass to KCP. the early shift of the defense. You guys will see this with Indiana. A ton off of Makes. They will take the ball out.

They will advance pass to Tyrese Halliburton. He will then advance pass to Aaron Neesmith, Pascal Seacom. They play with pace, and they use the pass to create pace, the advance pass. This is episode 8 of Mind the Game. Please enjoy. If you haven't already, please hit the first. that subscribe button, and please double tap for me, because I got through this entire thing in two takes.

Ron, lots of stuff happening in the world in basketball these days. I want to actually start with Bronny. This past week, he was in Chicago at the Combine, and, uh, First of all, I've never met Brownie, but I will say in all the interviews and clips that I saw, his perspective and his mindset at that age was like really stood out. It was actually quite remarkable. For you as a dad, and obviously my kids play basketball and much younger, but as a dad watching him go through this process, what's it like? Wow, this is where we're kicking it off with, huh, JJ? You go, we're going right to that topic.

I love it. I love it. You know, for as a parent to be able to be, you know, there to witness a child of yours, start to live out a dream of theirs. It's something Ronnie has always talked about, you know, and you know, say, we ask you plenty of times, like, what is your end goal? And his end goal is to be in the NBA. And to see him almost at that moment, you know, for a parent is something that you could just be in all of because, I mean, that's what you want your kids to be able to live out their dreams, you know, and whatever that is, whatever, you know, direction they take, you want them to be able to live out their dreams.

And for, you know, myself and Savannah to be there and be at the Combine this past week in Chicago to see him out there with other kids that's trying to live out their dream. it was a it was a pretty like remarkable i don't know what to say slash this is exciting um you know feeling for for a whole family and i know probably know the same feeling for him as well he had he had some quotes where he talked about certain players in the NBA that he felt he could play like yeah and i thought it was neat um because not every 19 year kid has that perspective. Like, most of us, you know, we think we're going to be All-Star, All-NBA from day one, and that's not necessarily how it works for everybody.

Do you talk to him about that? Do you talk to him about who he can be in the NBA? No. Or is he figuring this out on his own? Yeah, I think he's figuring it. I wanted him to kind of figure it out on his own, where he see himself fit in the NBA or, you know, where he see, you know, what his comp looks like to see, you know, him mention guys like Derek White, Drew Holliday, you know, a few other guys, Marcus Smart

and our league Dave Yon Mitchell. These are guys who like come in and for a team that's trying to win championships, a team that wants to win every night. These are the players that you have to have on your team because they just, it doesn't always show up in the box scores, but it always shows up in the winning plays. And, you know, for Brian to have that perspective on where he stands today, you know, that's great. And I think that's great for any team to be able to have a 19-year-old kid. Like you said, you know, I know that wasn't my, that wasn't my goal. My goal was like, listen, I'm trying to make it to the All-Star game in Year 1.

I want to be, you know, All-Star. I want to be MVP. I want to be this, you know, all of these things. And a lot of us have those aspirations. But, you know, for Bruny to just have that mindset of like, listen, at this point in time in my life and in my game, I know where I stand, but I know how I affect the game, you know. And, you know, he's just a winning player. And I just, I just love his mindset.

It's just some of his answers and to a lot of the questions that was given to him was like I was in all of because we've never actually, you know, even talked about it. But he's living in it. He's living in the moment. And he's definitely carving out his own lane. You know, he's definitely not his dad. And I'm not him. I wouldn't be able to handle the scrutiny and all the things that he got going on, you know, at his age and at his level. and with social media.

I didn't have social media to deal with when I came in at 18. I did have a lot of scrutiny. I did have a lot of things that was put on my shoulders. But I didn't have, you know, every single day around the clock,

news coverage, sports shows, things of talking about this particular person every single day. Or you go online or on social media and X and Instagram. Everyone can comment every single day about whatever they want to say, whatever.

I didn't have to deal with that. And to see him handle it, you know, with such class. And so, you know, just like self-awareness and just staying even killed. It's just a remarkable thing, man, and super proud of him. You know, me and Savannah talk about it all the time, how proud of it we are of our kids. And, you know, he's the oldest. You know, we always told him from day one, listen, you have to set an example for your brother and your little sister.

And he continues to do that. Yeah, I would say that NBA media got a week's worth of content out of him being. Yeah, well, since, you know, I think he continues to do that. He said, you know, well, since your dad's not in the playoffs no more, you know what? We're going to ride your coattail, Ronnie James. We can't get your dad to say anything right now. He declined an interview at the Cavs game. We can't get him to say anything.

So we're going to use your son. Yeah, you know. There's other things. There's other things happening in the NBA world, non-playoff related, that I feel like the NBA media is using as well. Absolutely. You know, I'm glad. I'm glad when you pointed to those guys that Brani mentioned, you talked about players that impact winning.

And I think that's a great segue to get into the playoffs. Yeah, man. And the conference finals are set. We've got four teams, and there's some similarities between all four teams, but I think all four teams have their own specific identity. You know, one of the things when I think about, all four of these teams is they have a bunch of guys that star in their roles beyond the stars of the team.

There's buy-in across the board to what guys' roles are. And I think in the regular season, whether it's because people are distracted, the viewership is different. We all, everybody wants to talk about is who's in the MVP. discussion, all of that, it's not till the playoffs that we fully get to appreciate guys like Nasree, guys like T.J. McConnell, the Derek Whites of the world, PJ Washington, Daniel Gaffern, Jayden McDaniels, of course. And it's, to me, this playoff run for, like, across the league, does it feel like to you, the role players are almost having

more impact than normal. I mean, I know there's always been there, but it feels like when we talk about, we always talk about like, your star's got to win a couple of games. You got to gut through a game. Maybe your coach gets you a game. Your role players win your game.

It feels like the role players night to night have just been incredibly consistent. No, you're absolutely right, JJ. I mean, you look at last night's game seven in Denver. You know, we talk about how spectacular Ant Man has been this whole post season. Last night, he goes six for 24 from the field. I mean, at, I think a half time, yeah, maybe two or four points, you know.

And in that fourth quarter, you saw Nas Reid. You saw, obviously, I mean, obviously Rudy is kind of a star player, but Rudy making plays in the kill Alexander Walker. And Jada McDaniels was just, I mean, he's been huge all season, but you see it even more in the postseason. But Nas Reid last night, you know, from, you know, the Euro step he had left right on Joker. get filed on the offense

rebound. Then he had a tip dunk from the corner. You know, he had a big time block shot on Joker late in that game as well. Like, he was huge. And then he pushed it in transition. They was up seven and hit Ant Man for a corner three opposite of a bench. You know, that came off Nas Reed.

You know, so like, you're absolutely right. The role players right now with these four teams that's left are making all the plays. You saw PJ Washington. It seemed like every time PJ Washington got into foul trouble in that Dallas versus OKC series, OKC kind of had a little advantage, you know? And when he was on the floor,

the advantage was gone, you know, because PJ Washington was there, made the timely threes, obviously in game six at home, made the timely stops, he was just big for him. So, you know, and obviously T.J. McConnell,

he's just a, you know, he's a coach's dream to be able to have a guy like that that comes in knows exactly what he's doing, push the tempo. He's always going to be high in a sister terminal ratio. you know and he's just a dog so you're you are absolutely right man you this this this postseason

is great and as much obviously we know the narrative is always going to go to the star guys but to be honest these games have been won by the MVP's of the role players yeah to that point last night's a great example in game seven there were games earlier in the knicks run or Jalen Brunson didn't have a good shooting night and they won. Luca has not been at his best outside of a couple games and they've won.

They've won games in that OKC series without Kyrie having a monster performance. And I don't know what I'm trying to get at, but it feels like, and it feels like, and we'll get to some of the parody stuff in a second, but it just feels like the depth of talent right now, particularly on really good teams. You can't concentrate.

You need seven, eight guys that can really play in high pressure moments and have the, you called it a dog, I'll say it, the toughness, the mental fortitude to compete at this level. And it feels like across the board of the NBA, we're getting more and more of these guys that are just, they're fucking good players, man. They're good players. Absolutely right. and they are starring in their roles,

and they're not doing nothing outside of what they do. And this is what this postseason has been about, and that's what this top four is all about. These top four teams, Indiana, Boston, you know, Dallas and Minnesota, have a bunch of guys who star and they roll, and they do it every single night, man. They are great at what they do.

And if there's any, if there's teams out here looking at, how to be successful, obviously you've got to have star. You got to have one, possibly two, you know, that's going to, you know, going to make sure that everybody stays even killed. But at the end of the day, you got to have those soldiers around, man. You got to have, you know, the conciergelies and the in the rest of those guys that's going to be ready to go, man. And that's what we see at the final four right now in the NBA. I want to talk about the identity of each team and sort of where you sort of would break down what makes each of these teams great.

And so let's actually start an Eastern Conference. I want to talk about the Boston Celtics. And a lot of the talk when the season started, right? They have six starters. They have more talent at the top end than any other team. They had a great regular season. They've certainly faced a little bit of adversity, losing game two in both series. but to me, this is a team that has a clear identity.

How would you describe it? I would describe it as they know exactly what they want to get to. They know exactly with their game. Obviously, they shoot a ton of threes, and that goes back to, I don't know if it was episode one or two from mine in the game where we were talking about the three-point attempts and how many threes you should take. But they play with a lot of space.

They're not the most Pace team. The team that they're going up against is probably number one in Pace. But they play with a lot of space. And it's five out. It's five out. And it's Drew, it's J.T. It's Jalen, is D. White, and it's Horford. And hopefully we will love to see Perseng is back because, you know, we want to see everybody whole when you get an opportunity to be whole at this point.

So, you know, and they surround those guys all, all game. It's a bunch of threes. They try to get some mismatches and either some flare screens or some rip screens where they can get a smaller guy on Jalen Brown or Jason Tatum and they try to exploit mismatches. But they know exactly what they're trying to get through, driving kicks, shoot a bunch of threes, try to get some offense rebounds to kick out for threes again, early transition threes, early attacks through the 45 for Jalen Brown, for Derek White, for Tatum. and then the rest of those guys just, you know, play off each other.

So they definitely have an identity. Yeah, so you bring up the switches and some of the things they do. And, you know, I want to differentiate right now between how the different ways you can manipulate matchups. Because traditionally, if you wanted to get a certain matchup, the guy would just, you, let's say it's you, you would bring the ball. off the court and you say come here and you do three different pick and rolls until they finally switch and then you get your matchup and you go right um i think boston uh will do that for sure and they do that a lot in late game they'll just set a side pick a roll get derrick white's guy on jason tape yeah exactly you know whatever it may be but they do a lot of the rip screen stuff

yep from the elbows from the elbows in their v2 horns two set yeah that creates those mismatches that they can get behind the defense on a slip. Now all of a sudden, you got Al Horford, Jalen Brown, whoever in the corner. You got shooting. But what that leads to, and I think in some ways, this is where they have a clear identity

beyond just shooting and spacing. Because they create those mismatches, whether it's Porzingus, Tatum, Brown, they get to a lot of ISOs, they get to a lot of post-ups. Yep. That is not Indiana. At all.

At all. That is not. Indiana. You bring up the pace that I just called four of their games in the conference semifinals. I think the most impressive thing to me about them is, number one, their use of the advance pass.

But also, they don't really run place. And Rick Carlisle said this to me. He's like, we're a concept team. We're not a play team. They will run multiple actions, whether it's pushing the ball up to initiate the offense or an

advance pass to initiate the offense. It's multiple actions one after another that eventually leads to drive and kick. We think about them and they're like, oh, you know, they shoot a lot of threes. Here's the thing. They led the league in points in the paint. All of that stuff that they do, the high pick and rolls with Halliburton, the advanced pass, T.J. McConnell, gnashing on the baseline. All of that is to eventually get something in the paint. And they'll take threes.

I'm not saying they won't take things. They want points in the paint. Yep, absolutely. It's a totally different thing. Yep, yep. Totally contrast from their opponent. owner today by the face. You got one team that wants to shoot a bunch of threes

and yes, they will take their layups and get their dunks or whatever case may be. The defense break down. But with Indiana, they want to live in the paint. And like you said, their ability to, you know, throw the ball up ahead, flatten the defense, to throw a back to either a slip drag

or a double drag to get Halliburne going downhill, finding guys, and then they get to their driving kick game, which they are very efficient and very good at. You know, so, you know, it's going to be definitely a game of two contrast, you know, different teams, but it's going to be fun to watch. What do you think is the best way to describe why the advance pass is so important? I think the best way to describe why the advance pass is so important, you know, I just said it literally, it flattens the defense out.

You know, and what that means, when you're, when you're throwing the ball ahead, the defense is always trying to get back to the level of the ball, get below the ball. And with Indiana, I think that is a point of emphasis for them to try to get all the bodies below the ball. So when they throw it back, you're not a position to now cover the pick and roll, which now they're very dynamic at, you know, and, you know, you tell your bigs, get back, get back, guards, get back, you know. So when they kick in the ball ahead, if they don't have early layups or they have early driving kicks, once that ball gets kicked back to T.J. McConnell or to Tyrese Halliburton, now here comes to drags. And it's not like, you know, dribble, dribble, wait, wait, no, they're right there at the point of the throwback. It's either a slip drag with Miles Turner.

It's either a slip drag with Obi-Topping, you know, or it's going to be a nice screen by Jackson, the guy off the bench, their backup center, he's really good at it. Or now their guards are getting involved where they're hit tapping and, you know, and slipping out. So, you know, I think that's very, you know, I think as a coach and as a coaching staff, they were able to identify their personnel and they knew exactly what would work for them. And it's, that's a great coach and a great coaching staff right there to be able to identify your personnel because they don't have many.

At the end of the day, we say, you know, why they're not posting up or why they're not isoing. To be honest, Indiana, they don't have the personnel to do that. And Siakum's really the only guy. Yeah, right. And I think to a degree, they only do that really when they feel like he has a mismatch. And they felt like in that Nick series, he had a mismatch against Josh Hart. And, you know, games three, four, five, six, seven, he took advantage of that.

Yeah, he did. The advance pass certainly flattens the defense. It's, to me, what you're describing is like an early shift. Yep, early shift, yep. Where if you advance, pass it up the right wing, now of a sudden everybody who's retreating on defense is shifting towards that side versus if you just bring the ball up or you walk the ball up, everybody's set. There's no shift, right?

The other thing, and I was, there was a great article recently about how the league is a copycat league and how a lot of these coaches are stealing stuff from each other. We all know that. But one of the things that talked about was a lot of coaches want the ball to get across half court in two to three seconds. And one of the things that has happened in this playoffs in particular is the pickup points has been all the way in the back court. Yes. You know, there's a stat I mentioned on the broadcast. There have been more possessions with back court pressure on average in a playoff game.

been in any other playoff season since we started to have track and error. So all that advance pass does is it takes the pressure off, right? You're in, you can create a mismatch as teams are retreating rather than walk the ball up, rather than dribble the ball up, that advance pass, maybe you get a mismatch. Maybe it's yokech, throwing ahead to Gordon. Now Gordon has a smaller guy on him, and he can post, and you can create offense that way, whatever it may be. So I think the advance pass is super important.

Boston uses it as well, and in particular, Jalen Brown. in transition looking to attack off the advance pass is massive. And I think Jaylen Brown was number one at fast break points this year, too, I believe. Where were you? Where were you? Do you are top six, top five? Maybe it was two, maybe. The other thing I want to talk about as it relates to this series is there's a bunch of different ways to guard picket rolls, right?

you can be in drop coverage, you can switch, you can be up to touch, which I feel like for a lot of my career, certainly a lot of your career, people were up to touch. Now a lot of teams play heavy drop coverage. You can also hedge. You can hedge. And Biggs used to do this, which is hilarious looking back. But if you're target hunting, like let's say Jalen Brunson was on Tyrese Halliburton in that Nick's Pacer series and I would expect Joe Mizzola to do the same in this series

Tyrese Halliburton rather than switching will be in a hedge. You're in a hedge. What do you think is a way you can sort of exploit that hedge and why do you think teams have gone away from it? Why do I think guys, teams that went away from the hedge? Yeah.

Because so much slipping goes on in our league as well. You know, so, you know, I think teams started exploiting the hedge so they start running a clear side pick and rolls. So if I know you're in a hedge and nine times out of ten, you know, if you have one of your defenders, you usually try to put him on a guy that's not much of a playmaker,

but he's probably a good-ass shooter. So you just, your only job is to kind of chase him. Chase him, don't give him no airspace, whatever the case may be. So a lot of teams have exploited that by putting their shooters as a screener, but not having them, if you know the guy that's guarding him, is going to be in a hedge, you go a clear side pick and roll,

and you just have him slip out. He's never going to be able to get there. He's never going to be able to get back. And nine times out of ten, that low man in the rotation won't be able to get to that. He won't be able to get to that rotation if you're full rotating.

It's too far of a run. So, you know, I think a lot of teams have gone away from the hedge. I actually like it. I actually like it sometimes, depending on who the ball handle it is, depending on how good of a pastor he is. If it's a guy that wants to be,

dynamic and always wants to get downhill or exploit, you know, mismatches or switching, you know, and really doesn't want to pass out of the double team. I always love a nice hard hedge, let the guy that's guarding the ball get underneath you and you get back high hands if you're guarding the shooter and close the gap, turn right back around because a lot of guys that's holding the ball will then drive up your back if you're closing out with your back towards the ball. Right, right. I think Joe Missoula is going to definitely look at some of the things that,

Tibbs and his coached staff was doing in that second round matchup versus the Pacers and and use it to, we'll see if it goes to their advantage, but they're going to use it. Yeah, they'll use it. And I think the easiest thing they can do, which the Knicks didn't do a lot of, you know, we were talking earlier about that V2 action, the Horn's 2 action, where they set the rip screen and then they slip it, they screen it at an angle so they can get behind the defense and you get the pass. it's the same thing

you know if you're setting a high ball screen rather than hold the screen or rather than slip to the three point line you slip into that short roll area now you've created a four on three which is now you've got to have the right players to do that with for sure correct and I think Boston does

yeah I mean the biggest would I want Derek White slipping into that would I want Drew Holliday yes I would yes I mean obviously I mean the biggest difference between the Knicks and the Celtics is that you know, for the majority of the time, you look at the Knicks, you know, Jalen Brunson is the primary ball handler and secondary ball handler 95% of the time. You know, you know, Dante handles a little bit

as well, Deuce McBride comes out and handles a little bit. Josh Harding transition. But from a half-course standpoint, from a half-course standpoint, the ball is in Jalen Brunson's hand, 97% of the time. Boston, they have four guys in their starting lineup who can handle the ball and initiate offense, Drew, Derek, Jalen, and Jason. So you can't just like hide, you know, you can't hide and you can't point, you know, point switch and things of that nature because they have multiple guys that can get them into the offense and also make plays off either you fucked up a switch or a closeout game. And that is the last thing you want to be against Boston is in a closeout game

because their ability to spray and they're going to be at that three-point line, 45-3s, at least, 45-3s. And you don't want to be in that, especially in Boston. Well, actually, in Boston, they don't play as well at home. You don't want to, it's weird.

They don't play as well as home, but still, you don't want to be in those situations with Boston. You know, one of the things I wanted to talk to you about last episode, we just never kind of came up, but as we're talking about pick and roll coverages, and we're talking about a hedge, let's say, or we're talking about a blitz, which is a double team. What happens in those situations?

There's a second defender, right? And so the space that the offensive player, the ball handler, is going towards in a drop, let's say, there's not that space there because the second defender is up, whether he's trying to reroute the ball or he's in a blitz. and I think it brings up the importance of great ball handlers who can drive away. And you played with the person who I consider to be the best at driving away.

And that was D. Wade. But by the way, the thing with D. Wade is you weren't up on him either. Like you, I was that if I'm guarding D. Wade on the left wing, I know, and there's a middle screen, coming, I know he's not going to shoot. So I'm automatically like a little bit off his body, right? I'm not, I know he's trying to drive away. I know I'm going underneath the screen and meet him on the other side. I know all of these things.

And he still doesn't. And yet he sets me up and gets me every time. I still, I guess, I still can't figure out how he was so effective at it. I don't know if it was just the way he moved the ball when he jabbed with his right foot. But on that left side, it was impossible. Yeah, he was damn good with that. He was damn good. That's what makes Jalen Brunson so damn effective, too.

And Jalen Brunson, you have to respect him a little bit more at the three point line. But his ability to reject screens and go away from the screen, it's challenging, especially when you're bringing, like you said, two guys up. You know, it's a screen coming. You said, Biggs, be up, be up.

The guard can't let you reject, and they still find a way. And that's you know, Karee does that. Luca has that ability. Tatum, Brown has that ability. So, you know, Ant Man has that ability. So it's going to be some chess playing in these conference finals for sure.

Yeah, I think about all those guys that you mentioned, potentially facing hard hedges or blitzes. And in some ways, all of them have the ability and have the sort of cooperation to make the work. right play and by that i mean i've got two on the ball i've done my job um but but at the same time they know their values as primary scores and so there's a little bit of a chess game even with their own mindset about when is the right time to just get off the ball when is the right time to attack and try to get that drive away um by the way i think d wade's dunk on the perk if i'm not

mistaken. It was a reject for sure. Yes, it was. Yeah, it was on a reject. It was on a reject. It was on a reject. Minnesota and Dallas, the commonality to me, and it's a little different, I think, with both these teams in terms of how they're built, but the commonality in terms of identity with these teams right now is with their defense. And Minnesota, number one defense in league all season. Dallas, number one defense, the last 20 games of the season. They both have size and length.

They both have a player in their starting lineup that is a little bit undersized relative to everybody else, Mike Connolly, Kyrie Irving. Both those guys have been super engaged throughout the season defensively. So I think both these teams, their identity is built. I think the fascinating part about Minnesota in sort of watching this, and Yokic said this last night after the thing, he said. said, he said, yeah, they're a team that's literally built to beat us. And Tim Conley, who was in Denver, built that team, goes to Minnesota and built them. He built them to beat the team

that he put together. I just, it's interesting to think about specifically with them, the sort of, what makes them different is their size. Yeah. Right? They're just a bigger team. And everybody, we've lived through this three-point revolution, we've lived through this small ball era. You played against them this year. What are some of the ways you can attack them and what are some of the things that they just do really well? Minnesota, that is.

Yes. You know, Minnesota is one of the few teams, if not the only team in our league, that makes the court seem smaller because of their length. You got Gaubert, Cat, Aunt, Jaden, and Conley, even though he's not as tall as far as height, if you look at his arms, when he spread his arms out, his wingspan, you know, shuts down a lot of the court as well.

So, you know, they cut down the court. You know, they have, you know, Kyle Anderson, super length, you know, Nas Reed, and the Q. Alexander, those guys are, they have a lot of length, you know. And, you know, they just, you know, you either, you're driving, whatever case may be, the court feels shrunk, you know? So, you know, the best thing you could do is not hold the ball.

Because when you hold the ball, they spread arms. They lock arms. They like they just cut down half of the court. So, you know, you have to, you know, play very just like quick, quick movements, quick drives, quick kicks, you know. And it's not much like I used before. I don't know if that was episode one or two. And I said, not much fat time.

Not much fuck around time when it comes to Minnesota's defense because they can put you in a box for sure. Yeah, and then you add in the fact that they can match up positionally if they want, they can cross-match it they want and use Gobert as a roamer and have him just sort of clean up different stuff. It's going to be interesting to see just how Dallas involves Gobert, whether that's in pick and roll, whether that's sort of off-ball. If he is cross-match for whatever reason, do they try to play a lot?

little small at times like could you i could imagine potentially a non-lively gafford lineup right with one of them out yeah you know rick rick used to do that all the time when when we would play against the jazz and you know what's a big a big a big a big a big hurt for dallas in this series is is is no maxi cleaver because he he having him at the five you know would would alleviate you know a lot of what minnesota is trying to do with his ability to guard bigger guys and also hit the So, you know, it's going to be challenging to see if Dallas, if JK and his coach and staff kind of goes to a smaller lineup to kind of get Go Burr, you know, to try to get Nas Reed and those guys out on the perimeter. But who is the five guys? You go Luca Kyrie, Derek Jones, PJ, Washington, and Tim Hardaway, he's kind of been not in and out of the rhythm because of it didn't play late.

Josh Green, you know, they, you know, so Dante XM is kind of. It's feisty. Yeah. Josh Green is feisty. He is feisty, but they will definitely put Rudy on Josh Green for sure. They will put him on Josh Green and see if he can make a couple of shots. But we'll see it. It'll be definitely a game of chess for sure when it gets down to him.

Yeah. Yeah, and then Dallas, of course, I mentioned the defense. They are unique because they have two insanely great shot creators, both for themselves and for other people. PJ Washington and Derek Jones Jr., have been phenomenal in this pro-off run. Phenomenomenal. And I think one of the big things,

one of the big things in this series, and it goes back to two on the ball, right, is can Minnesota stay out of that? Where I think at times the Clippers and OKC got in trouble. And you've got to give credit to Dallas, of course, for actually making the shots. But where they got in trouble at times was putting two on the ball against Kyrie

and putting, it wasn't even necessarily blitzes though, Bron. You know what I mean? Is that overhelp? Or is that, hey, you know, that slot drive from Luca, we're going to put three bodies in the vicinity. Well, Luca can make any pass. Any pass. He can make any pass.

And if PJ Washington is shooting 47% for three, you're in trouble, right? You're in trouble if you're overhelping. So I think as much as Minnesota can stay out of two on the ball the more success they will have in this in this in this series yeah um bro i want to finish up with something because um you know we we want to talk about sort of all things basketball and uh katelyn clark uh phenomenal run i saw her the other night by the way i saw her the other night in indy uh after her i think it was her second game or her game but it was the first game against

liberty they played liberty thursday and they were back here in new york on saturday i saw her after the Thursday game, very briefly. And, you know, she was just talking about the quick turnaround, which I find to be insane, that they go through this season that starts basically in September. They have all their preseason practices, games. She does the tournament, gets the national championship game. And then, like, within a month, she's playing in real WNBA games.

There's no real offseason for her. but the thing I wanted to bring up was just I don't want to call it hatred but it's there's definitely like a like a dislike or vitriol coming her way towards older players and look I think we all experienced that to some degree when we first got in the NBA for sure your opponents are not wrapping their arms around you I had that to a small extent I was the cocky white kid from Duke, right? You know, I feel like sometimes my teammates hated me. How did you process that? How did you go through that at a young age coming into the NBA where the people could have been your teammates, could have been the people you were competing

they weren't celebrating you. No, not at all. They wanted to kick your ass. Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, my teammates for sure. There's video evidence of my teammates basically saying like he's not ready or there's somebody playing this position or we're not putting all our faith in an 18 year old kid or, you know, all this hype we've been here, all this, you know. So my own teammates that I had to like be on the floor with, practicing with, on the planes with, you know, in a locker room, in game situations was kind of, you know, just had this kind of, like you say, you want to say hate, but just like animosity, like towards. towards me and, you know, and what I could provide. And I didn't even come in with that. I didn't come in. I came in with the narrative, but I didn't come in with that type of aura.

I just wanted to come in and learn from the vets and then put them, you know, put the work in. So I think for my advice to Caitlin and my advice to anyone that comes in with this, you know, this level of like notoriety, you know, out of this world, expectation, you know, whatever. the case maybe i just think just you know it's all about having you know a be a a horse man you know the kentucky derby put your blinders on go to work show up to work punch your clock in prepare yourself work on your game work on your craft you know kind of keep your mouth shut you know and just learn from the vets when they ask you voice your opinion if if they want your opinion man early on because everybody is looking for you to say anything and they're going

to splice it and cut it and make it a negative thing like and I think for her the one thing that I love that she's bringing to her sport more people want to watch more people want to tune in I saw for the first time that they had a chartered plane for the first time in their league history you know they flew private that should be celebrated in his own right from anyone that's, you know, in sports that's flown commercial or flown, you know, charter, that should be celebrated. And it's because of Caitlin Clark.

Don't get it twisted. Don't get it fucked up. Caitlin Clark is the reason while a lot of great things is going to happen for the WNBA. But for her individually, I don't think she should get involved on. Nothing that's being said.

Just go have fun, enjoy. People need to realize the Indiana fever, this is the second year in a row they had the number one pick. So do y'all know what that mean? That means they're not that good. They had back-to-back years as the number one pick.

Why are you a hater on the fever, man? I am a realist. Like, because not only like I get, like, people are just like crazy about why she should be doing this and they should be doing that. If she's so great, this team. Like, it's still a team game, people. It is still a team game. And, you know, but I'm rude for Caitlin because I've been in that seat before.

I've walked that road before. I hope she kills. I hope Alia Boston does amazing. You know, I hope they do great. You know, I'm just kind of in this mode right now because I'm getting the same, you know, thing from watching my son, who's a 19-year-old, kind of getting a lot of animosity and hatred towards him

when he's just a kid trying to live out his dream. You know, there's a very small number of men and women that actually get to live out their dream of playing the performance. professional sport. And we have grown-ass men and women out here doing whatever they can to try to make sure that does not happen. That is the weirdest thing in the world. But it is what it is. And I'm glad that Caitlin has a great head on our shoulder. She seems like it. I don't even, I don't think I've ever met her. I don't think I've met her before. But it seems like everything is going to be great for her because she's a great talent. She seems like a great gal.

oh, she turns that franchise around to where, you know, Tamika Ketchins had it at one point. A couple of things to finish up here. I just wanted, you brought up the thing with your teammates, and there's a, I found this quote. I don't know why I did this, but it was a while ago. It was for the old man in the three. I can't remember who we were interviewing, but I found a quote by Paul Silas. We're like, Paul, who was your head coach, was talking. talking about how your teammates hated you, so I thought that was interesting.

And the other thing I was going to say is, like, right after your summer league was in Boston, right? I played in Boston and Orlando, yeah. Okay, you played Boston. So it was after Boston, I saw one of your teammates. I'm not going to name names. So one of your teammates, and he wasn't, he wasn't negative. He wasn't negative. But this has been, like, in my brain for the last, like, 20 years.

He said, I said, yo, how's, how's, how's, how's, how's, how's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, How was LeBron? Like, when do you think of him? And he said, yeah, man, he can really pass, you know, really knows the game. He's like, he's going to make other guys better. But, like, I don't, I think he's going to struggle to score. I don't think he's going to score. Meanwhile, 40,000 points later.

Great take. It was a great take. He was spot on. Great take. All right. Talk to you soon, man. Always fun. see you man

all right Ron I love the term fat time yeah I'm gonna start use no no fuck around time

no no I love none of it all right all right jay hey hey Hello, I'm Dax Shepard.

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