Mind the Game - The NBA Draft, What We Learned this Season and Mahershala Ali Joins the Show | LeBron James and Steve Nash

Episode Date: June 23, 2026

The NBA Draft has arrived and Mind the Game with LeBron James and Steve Nash is ready to guide you through the 2026 Draft class which includes amazing talent such as AJ Dybantsa, Darryn Peterson, and Cameron Boozer. The guys also share their own personal draft night stories (including those unbelievable suits). Then LeBron and Steve transition to a discussion about what we learned from the 2025-26 NBA Season. And finally Mahershala Ali joins the show for an amazing reunion with his old St. Mary's vs. Santa Clara rival, Steve Nash. You don't want to miss that conversation.Thanks for listening to Mind the Game and don't forget to follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts!New DraftKings customers turn five bucks/dollars into two hundred in total bonuses. The Crown Is Yours!Sign up using dkng.co/MIND or through my promo code MIND. #DKPartnerGAMBLING PROBLEM? CALL 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET, 800-327-5050/visit gamblinghelplinema.org (MA). Call 877-8-HOPENY/text HOPENY (467369) (NY). Call 888-789-7777/visit ccpg.org (CT), (MD), (PR).Wagering offered by DK Sportsbook: 21+. Present in most states. (18+ DC/KY/NH/PR/WY). Void in ONT. On behalf of Boothill Casino (KS). Pass-thru of per wager tax may apply in IL. Event Trading offered by DraftKings Predictions, CFTC-registered: 18+. Trading involves risk of loss. Market availability varies. General: 1 per new DraftKings customer. $5+ deposit req. Trade $5, get $200 Prediction Dollars (1-year expiry) issued as $50 increments every 7 days upon login for 21 days; or bet $5, get $200 Bonus Bets instantly (7-day expiry and stake removed from payout). 7 days = 168hrs.Rewards are non-withdrawable. Terms: dkng.co/offer. Ends 6/28/26 at 11:59 PM ET. Sponsored by DK.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Coming up on this episode of Mind the Game. It's around this time. The draft comes up the first day that comes up. The bronze draft day suit. Do you like anyone in the draft? The kid, AJ, that played at BYU. Obviously, the booze are twin down there and Duke. The kid that's kind of around my ways from, you know, the surrounding areas of Akron,

Can area, Darren Peterson. Let's talk about what we learned this year. To be able to add depth, be able to add youth, continue with the pace. The pace is not slowed down. I think that's kind of ingredients for where our league is. One of the things that I also think really hurts older teams is defensive transition. Yeah. I don't know when that changed, that it was more beneficial to do the individual workouts over the 5-on-5 play through the summer.

I don't know when like the most important person in the summertime was the trainer and not the player. Right. So I know y'all gonna be with, bro, we ain't see no 5-05 clips with you lately. Yank and yanked. Damn it. Marshalla Ali. I think a lot of our viewers that watch are, they're sitting here like, play ball?

Like he's speaking the game. I don't think a lot of people know that you really play ball. Marshall, I played at St. Mary's. Yeah. I played at Santa Clara same year. Yeah. Arch rival schools. Yeah. We were natural rivals. It's so wonderful seeing you after, last time I saw you was about 30 years ago

a few months before heading into the draft. So this is a real profound, full circle moment for me because I think about you from time to time in a way that I feel has really resonated as one of my biggest life lessons. So we have the NBA draft. Yeah.

It's crazy. For me, 30 years. Yeah, for me, 23 years. Wow. Wow. You're still fucking playing. That's crazy. That's crazy.

Oh, man. But yeah, that's some incredible memories for me. Our draft experiences were different. I was a senior. Yeah. It was the 15th pick, both in incredible drafts. I still remember my agent Bill Duffy getting me a suit with his tailor.

You could have got half of mine and I still would have fit mine. Somehow I look back at the choice of tie and the white socks for some reason was like a limb you could go on in 96. Listen, there's nothing you can explain right now. Right now, right? be comparable to what the fuck I wore in my draft 23 years ago. I can vaguely see yours. I can, it won't leave me.

It's like, it's like, it's like, never, it's around his time. The draft comes up the first day that comes up. The bronze draft day suit, you know, rest in peace, you know, the late David Stern, you know, him trying on my jacket in the back. Yeah. Literally just, he got lost right away. So it's probably too late, but this could be a public service announcement of the dudes in the draft. Like, this will never leave you.

This will never leave you. It will never leave you. The one thing I know about your draft, and every time I think about it, the 96th draft, besides you guys being one of the greatest drafts of all time, obviously, is that slam cover shoot that you guys did. That photo, I had that in my room

when I stayed in Spring Hills on my wall with all you guys there. Where was that? Did you guys shoot that in Jersey? It was actually, I want to say, near Orlando. It was, it's been 30 years. It was, I think we had rookie orientation and they did all that media stuff there. Hey.

Could have been. That's one of the coldest pictures of all time. I feel like it was like out of middle school or high school. I remember Kobe had to, he had a cast on him, right? Because yeah, broke his hand or some shit like that. Coming into the draft. Yeah. I think there was someone missing.

I should know this as we're going to talk about it. Listen, some of those. I can know, I remember who was, what, was Steph was there? Stephon was, was Marbury there? Yeah. He was there. AI was there.

John Wallace was there. Yeah. Ray. Ray, Camby, you, Carrie Kittles. Carrie Kittles. Was, uh, Antoine Walker, Eric Dan Peer. Was he in y'all draft as well?

I think it might be AI who was missing. Was it AI that I was missing? Alan might have missing. Missing. Busy. Yeah. Yeah, Bubba Chuck. Good old Bubba Chuck.

Doing his thing. Oh, man. Yeah, great, great draft for us. That's an unbelievable draft. Yeah, man. That was incredible. You guys definitely top, top two, greatest draft all the time. That was fun.

What do you remember? For me, the toughest part about the draft is, like, family and friends. Just making sure everyone's situated. You're trying to experience this, but you want them all to, like, experience it with you? Yeah. I mean, no, you just said it right there. I'm getting a headache thinking about it. I feel like the whole city of Akron, like, you know.

Oh, my God. Oh my God, don't do it to me, Steve. I think the whole city of Akron made their way to New York City, either by plane, trains, automobile, everybody. How long is that drive? I don't know. How long is it drive to New York from Akron? Eight hours?

I know my uncle, my mom's younger brother, my uncle drove because he don't like flying. So I remember him and a few of my other family members drove. I know some of my best friends, either flew or drove. It was a lot. So were you Medellines? No, I was Garden. I was Madison Square Garden.

We were Medalands. Yeah, yeah, we was Madison Square Garden. It was a... Swamp. It was a lot. I didn't have a great time. I was happy as hell. It was a beautiful moment.

We celebrated a little bit after the draft, but it was a lot. Yeah. It was a lot. Yeah. Different experience when you know, like, your draft night's over in two minutes. I was like, I have no idea where I'm going. Was you in the green room? I was in the green room.

Okay. Well, you didn't wait that long. You said 15. 15. Did you have a sense of like, oh, shit, I might be 15 to 20, 10 to 15? Yeah. I thought it was like late lottery to 20. Late lottery to 20.

So it kind of went right in the range. But you know that night, like, I mean, you don't know. But it can be a little nervy when you knew. You're like, I know where I'm going. Yeah, I knew. I'm like, I could be moving to seven different places. So that's always fun. I mean, good luck to these dudes.

Do you like anyone in the draft? Is it, you know, what do you think of these? I mean, I don't know a lot of the kids in the draft. Obviously, I know some of the big names, you know, and the kid, AJ, that played at BYU, obviously the boozeer twin down there at Duke. The kid that's kind of around my way. He's from, you know, the surrounding areas of Akron,

Ken area, Darren Peterson. I didn't know he's from there. Yeah, so, and he's a great talent. I know the kid down there, North Carolina. Caleb Wilson is a dynamic player as well. It's going to be a lot of guys that's going to either be drafted, you know, and come into the game and it be excited.

You know, I think what these guys need to understand is, like, one, your dream is coming true. Like, you know, and, you know, just try to take it all in, take the draft all in, enjoy it with you and your friends and family. And then, you know, but understand, like, wherever you are, this was what I felt. I knew I was going to be the number one of picking the draft, but I knew as soon as the draft ended, I had to start from scratch. And I was not coming into the NBA number one. So I had to put their work in.

And I know a lot of these kids, they do work hard, but it's about putting the work in when the cameras are not rolling. So, you know, I know social media is a big thing if people wanted to post everything, but just lock in on your craft and you can be very successful in our league. That's a great point, though, because, like, the draft is a moment in time. And like all these guys are developing, right? And here's this moment in time, and they're all in different directories.

And you try to say like what their gifts are, skills are. But the biggest thing to me, and is what you're saying, is their personality. Like how much they love the game? How competitive are they? How much are they willing to work when no one's watching? That's where you can't project after that moment in time when you say, I take this kid. If he ends up to be like doesn't actually love the game as much as we thought, you have a problem. You have a big problem.

Right? That's why guys in the second round are undrafted. You know, end up being incredible players because they had that heart, that world of desire. So that's always the fascinating part about the draft is like, yeah, you can see like the top four, five, six guys. This is a tremendous draft talent-wise. But who are those other guys that just love this game? They're 19 now. When the time they're 23, 24, 25, they're going to pass a bunch of these guys.

Absolutely. And if you're a kid that expected to go on the first round and you don't get going to first round, you're going to second round, think Nicola Yolkits, think Draymond Green. If you're a kid that was projected going to second round and you become undrafted, think Austin Reeves. Ben Wallace. Yeah, Ben Wallace. Awesome Reed.

So, like, it's not the end of the world. You know, just keep putting into work, you know. And when your number is called, just be ready and prove yourself right. Don't prove anybody else wrong. You know, I know we all have that, that, you know, I'm going to prove everybody wrong, but, like, prove yourself right. You versus you. You versus you.

Yeah. Because that's all it matters. The Boozer fascinates me. You know, he's kind of in this top group here with these guys that are like off the charts athletes. So it's almost like a mark against him. But he's so smart, size, skilled. You know, like those are, at the end of the day, like, you know, it doesn't matter who

you can dunk on if you can't read and react play. So it's like he is next to these guys that are like incredible athletes. Yeah. But he's so good, so skilled, big. I could see him being a guy that you'd be underestimated this draft. And I mean, I play with his dad. Yeah, so did I. So, you know.

Yeah, right? Another old moment for me. Lose. Yeah, and I played with his dad. And his dad was kind of the same to have the same projection. Wasn't the tallest, you know. Undersized four. Undersized four.

Wasn't the most athletic, you know. And then, you know, we saw what he was able to do. Yeah. You know, I think he was multiple all-star, you know, got the max a couple of times. I think, you know, Utah gave them the max, you know. So like great career, you know, and so it doesn't. The narrative of what you or what people are seeing you are, is never the end of the story. Like you make your career what you want your career to be.

And like I said, when you get the opportunity, just make the most of them. Yeah, for sure. Well, good luck to all those. Yeah, absolutely. All those dudes. Good luck to the 2026 draft class. It's going to be fun. Let's talk about what we learned this year.

Depth. I think we learned that last year. We learned that last year. We learned that last year, but we learned it again. It's even more pronounced, I think, this year. I'll say it again, but last year, seeing Rick Carlyle play lineups in the fourth quarter of the finals, that I was like, I think a lot of coaches would have given up on these guys. He stuck with him.

He developed because he had an identity. We're going to pick up full court. We're going to play at a frenetic pace. We have that air traffic control offense through the foul line extended area, and it takes a lot of energy. This year, people will double down. More people start picking up full court. So depth is important. And then the second part that's coupled with that is youth.

The Spurs, the second youngest finalist since the merger from the ABA. And OKC last year was the third youngest ever to win. Thoughts. That's right there. It's the pace, man. Like you said, if you want to be able to wear teams down and but also build, a lot of teams are building that stamina. You know, let's start early.

Let's build it up, you know, but you got to. to have, you know, you've got to have that depth. And you've got to have that youth. Yeah. You know, and I think a lot of teams kind of saw with Indiana deal last year. Obviously, we, you know, we talked about this a long time ago in one of our episodes. It's a copycat league, man. You know, so having depth, having youth, you know, long, athletic wings, you know, dynamic

shooters, dynamic guys that could do multiple things, pass you, dribble, you know, that's where the league is, is trending. Yeah. And, and we have two teams. in the finals right now that has length and depth and shooting and playmaking. One of, it's one of the youngest teams since the merger. And we have one was more of veterans side of the things.

But yeah, what we've learned this year is that it's continued from the previous year, you know, to be able to add depth, be able to add youth, continue with the pace. The pace is not slowed down. Yeah, I think that's kind of ingredients for where our league is, you know, At the moment.

And we sort of mentioned it, but the picking up full court, the physicality. You know, there's so many guys, like, just outside the top of the key to the half court,

you can just mall dudes now. You can get into the ball, bump and hit. You know, it gets different when you get in the paint. But, like, that physicality from the other team's basket, you know,

so you're trying to play with pace. They're trying to stop you playing with pace. They're getting into bodies physical. So one of the things that I also think really hurts older teams is defensive transition. It is not the strength of older dudes to change ends, you know, uphill, you know, so to speak. It's literally got to be one thing or the other.

Right. Like it's either, because, you know, now they're telling every team to crash. We shoot a lot of threes, crash through the elbows, get extra possessions. With an older team, if you crash, nine times out of ten, yeah, it's going to be able to get back versus these younger teams. So it's like, you've got to be one or the other. You either got to be a dynamic team that wants extra possessions or you got to be a team that protects transition points. As soon as that ball go up, shit,

just like the first drill, you kind of one of the first drills you ever did when you start playing basketball. Ball goes up, turning sprint, you know, and get back. So it can't be no in between. And if you're one of the oldest teams in the league or you're one of the older teams, if you, we call it limbo rate. If you're in limbo, you're going to give up a lot of double-digit

points in transition for sure. Yeah, and I think that's what hurts the older teams is that they don't have that optionality. They got to get back. They got to protect because they can't do both. So I think that's where some of these teams are getting younger and younger, more athletes, deeper on the bench, guys that can play defense, can they make a three? Okay, we can go eight, nine, ten deep. Especially in the regular season, there's guys that get you through the regular season

that don't play in the place, but they helped players one through five, six. No question. Get through the regular season unscathed, so to speak. That's like, you know, piggybacking or going back to like the points of transition. It's one of the things that's so much different from when I mean, you entered the league, when I entered the league, it wasn't, you know, a five-man fast break. You know, you had a couple guys that can get out in transition, but, you know, you didn't, you know, most of big men's back in the day, they was not running from baseline to baseline, you know. You know, they wasn't, you didn't have a lot of point fours that can grab the rebound and push the break, and then you had three other guys either. You had the two guys running to the corners and one run into the 45, you know.

So, you know, that's the difference between, you know, the game has just continued to evolve and, you know. Yeah, well, for example, the five back in the day, like defensive transition, it was like, because we weren't pushing the pace like that, they didn't have as much responsibility in defensive transition. They could kind of prod their way back if it wasn't a clear fast break. Now running off makes, misses, trying to turn people over, you need your five to be able to get back, be mobile, plug gaps, build the wall. Yeah, load to the basketball. You're all up to the ball. Yeah, you have to do that. So let me, as the wise sage, I've seen it all,

let me ask you this big pitcher question. You know, clearly we're getting younger because we're picking up four-quarter, we're playing faster, we're shooting deeper. So the game has become like, it's almost like we're playing on a court that's twice the size it was 30 years ago. If you don't make the playoffs,

you have five months off, five-plus, five-ish-plus months off. Should we extend the time? Because we're never coming off this. It's not even 82, it appears. Should the season be two, three, four weeks longer? Should we start in the first, second, third week of September? So you have more time. And maybe it cuts our summer.

I know you're sitting there going, man, I got a tea time. Why are you asking me this question? Because you're the one still playing. But you already cut the summer? I mean, it's a give and take? Yeah, it's a give and take. I mean, I don't see it being a negative. Yeah.

You know, I don't see it being a negative. I think anytime when you want to do something different, you're going to have some, you know, you're going to have some people be like, no, fucking up our summer, you know, all that type of shit. But like, you know, if it's beneficial and we think it benefits our sport, then it's no, you know, maybe you just try it,

maybe you try it one year. Yeah, we're trying for 10 days. We're trying for 10 days, you know, you see what happens. But I don't know. I think, you know, there's always, as the game continues to evolve and we get, you know, to a point

we have to start retooling at some point and see, okay, what do we need to do to keep it fresh? Yeah. Keep our game flowing and keep a game fresh. Oh, it's a great point. It's like individual players need to work out differently. Yeah.

Right? Well, this version of the NBA, maybe we need to tweak the way we play. We can't just say, okay, we're going to do it the same way they did in the 50s and 60s. No, you absolutely cannot. You absolutely cannot. You can't wait. I mean, guys are not taking much time off after the season now to get back on the court. because it's too much buildup

and the game is so much faster now you can't be, you know, you used to have the ability to kind of use training camp and use like preseason to kind of get into the rhythm, you know, but now we're playing so much faster, you know, and soft tissue injuries

are happening to reoccurring now that you have to start the body moving a lot sooner than we maybe did back in the day. What about, it feels like from my generation to this generation, I don't know how many generations are in between there, they play less and they do more individual work. Yeah, it's kind of nasty. I guess what I'm getting at is I think everything's evolved for the positive

and mostly, but one thing is like, then you get into a season where the demands are so big and you haven't played as much, that ramp up is steep. Yeah, I don't know when that changed. that it was more beneficial to do the individual workouts over the five on five play through the summer. I don't know when that changed. I don't know when like the most important person

in the summertime was the trainer and not the player. Right. Like the basketball trainer is the most important guy in the summer. I don't know when it shifted from like. You know the star in the gym? Yeah, yeah, I didn't know. I don't know when that dynamic shifted

because you know, we used to play And a lot of my friends can attest it is like even when I got in the NBA, you know, I built like a little basketball court in my backyard in Akron, you know, at my house. I will get nine other guys and we will play in the summertime on a black court. Like, we would play like twice, two or three times a week, you know, and just get up and run and feel like the demands of being outside and also demands of another body like bumping and grumpy and grumpy. and things of that nature.

And this was like in like July. Yeah. You know, so yeah, I don't know, man. I think it's very important though. I think guys, if you're listening, you've got to play more, if it's not five on five, at least, you know, two on twos, three on threes. Like you got to get physical contact, you know, a couple times a week, three times a week, and not just you and a trainer or a cone or some shit like that.

Like you can do both. You can literally show up 35 minutes before the run, get some individual. work, play fives, and then get a some more individual. If you want to shoot after, you can do both. But the summer workout of, hey, man, I'll meet you in the gym, 101, you know, and then I'll see you. That's what we're going to beat us out. Yeah.

That's not out. That actually breaks your, it's going to break your body down, you know, when it comes to the, to the marathon. I think correct for the physical adaptation, but also for the skill transferring. Like, you're going to spend a lot time working on your skills, because you have to transfer into a real environment, not just, like, show up to, you know, a week before the season start playing basketball and expect that skill to transfer without going live against somebody. Yeah, you got to go live.

Like, you got to go live. I think it's very beneficial. It's very, I know. People can be like, well, we don't go see you play a lot. But I'm also like, I don't. You've done enough. Yeah, I've done enough live, guys. All right.

Please don't bring me into this. I know how y'all are going to be with, well, Brian, we haven't seen no five-o-five clips with you lately. Yank and yanked. Damn it. I'm 41 years old. I'm giving him pass. And everybody can be Kyrie Irvin, you know?

Kyrie Irvin is one of the most gifted basketball players of all time. So they see him and they see his workouts and they're like... The one's king. Play any day, anytime. Yeah, yeah. Kyrie is special, guys. Understand that. That's great.

And now over to our producer, Jason, for a word from one of our partners. Thanks to Draft Kings for sponsoring the show. This summer, the Cup is heading to the U.S., and only Draft Kings has you covered every step of the way. The Draft King Sports app is now available in all 50 states and includes all markets, bringing the game straight to your fingertips wherever you are. From Florida to Texas to California, you're in on the excitement at the speed of sport. Follow every group stage upset, every knockout round thriller,

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There you go. You guys don't know that. What's that? Herschilmore. Mahershala Ali is... I was born Mahershal al-Hashbaas Gilmour. Yeah. Okay. And so my nickname was Herschel, Gilmore.

Herschel? Yeah, yes. You said the family's back in Oakland? They're up there right now. I have family up there, my grandma's up there. So we're just kind of doing a weekend family trip. Nice. I gotta go to work soon, so I gotta get in all the moments I can right now. You on press store or location?

Location, work. What are you having? of later on we'll be doing a little press stuff and touring and everything. So yeah. How are kids? I got a nine-year-old. Oh, amazing. How many kids you got?

Five, right. Wow. Yeah, from Bronny's age down to six. She'll be seven, the youngest. Yeah, I'm in my lawn chair at the practices. Doing it again, it's great. I mean, I love it. I love it.

I'm so glad I'm doing it again. There's no way I can do it again. No? No. Give yourself a little time. No? No. What are you, what are some of the things that you found that that sort of like feed the, as a former athlete, there's a certain thing that doesn't turn off?

That is like just instinctive to you growing up, playing sports, and understanding the cycle, the beginning, middle, and training for something before you are conscious of what training is. And then at some point down the road it stops for you, right? And some people it's a lot longer than others, right? But I found that fortunately for me, there was such a smooth transition into like finding something else, like in terms of like a stumbling to the arts, that I found that so many of the things

that I learned in who apply, it's too many things in name. Almost like another sport now. Too many things in name. So it's like I have a former education that gives me like a bunch of tools into like how to apply towards this whole other space. And some things don't apply, but a lot of things do.

I'm wondering for yourself, how is that sort of articulated itself? Clearly I know one thing coaching, but it may not even be as on the nose as like sport to sport type things. Like that need to like break something down, learn from it, criticize yourself. Like that thing that feels very natural. I feel like if you don't begin to find that in other ways in your life, it's not about sport and competition.

It's about like a frequency of energy. If you don't find that, it could be a little rough. I'm curious like what are some of the things that you kind of, how did you address that? Sure. But I'll ask you before I tell you is, like a kid who went to Juilliard has an advantage over you. But did you have an advantage? Do you think over some of those that grew up because you came from a different place? I think the element of team, like understanding team.

I think you would imagine actors understand it, but they can be some of the most selfish people you've ever been around. Athletes you assume are selfish, but actually inherently understand certain things about team so naturally in their bones. Even if you understand, I got to come off the bench and I got to score. I have to.

I have to come off the bench and defend. Or I got to come off the bench and be diving on the ground. And like if that's your only contribution, you collectively, there's something the team knows what you did. Even if the audience doesn't value value and doesn't totally get like that charge you took, what that changed the momentum energy of the. So I think that inherently in that coming from sports, you understand being in service of the story. You understand being in service of winning, which is team, right? But then there's also the thing where as an individual, as an individual, you want a score, though, too. You want a score too, right?

And so I think that's the thing that I found where I don't think I ever got to become the scorer I wanted in real athletics and sports. So I think I've always fought for. So that was like your driving factor. In part, it was like, let's go straight up in the acting space, I know I'm more of a scorer than what I'm not getting shots. or you got to come off the bench and be Jamal Crawford to like stay in the game you know what I mean?

Or you feel like you're getting ignored in a certain way and so a lot of that was two things understanding and feeling like there's a team to serve there's a there's something to be in service of

but also I want to make sure that I'm having the most fulfilling experience possible that I'm able to play at my, I'm able to work in a system that values my talents. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Do you know what I'm saying?

Yeah. Because there's, you being a certain system that is just, you could be the best dot, dot, dot, but if that system is not built for you, right. Then you won't win. You're not gonna, or you won't have fun while you're winning. Like, you know, because it's just, there's not a place for you in that system. So that's what, those, the spaces sort of have been in conversation for me, having been on like both sides.

both sides. How did you, like, when you first started acting, how did you, you know, you obviously probably brought a raw energy and enthusiasm. How long did you transition to like, you play basketball since you're five, six, seven, eight years old. It's familiar. When you started acting, lights go on. And at first it's raw, unbridled, I'm just going for it.

And then how was that transition from that to like a sophisticated actor playing different parts and roles and being able to go do? deeper. What was that transition? I know it's going to happen forever. Yeah, yeah. Like immediately that must have been really strange. You know, I think sometimes things are easy when you don't name them. Sometime they're easy when you don't admit your investment in it. Like, I don't really not do this. I just, I'm kind of just stumbling in it. But then when you say I want to be it, that's when it gets hard, you know. And when I got into grad school and I basically was saying I want to commit to this path is when the lights

it's like the black light turned on you saw all the things that were problematic you know and all the things that didn't work and all the things that needed to be pulled apart to clean this up right and so to so it then it becomes a process of being able to tolerate the criticism until you begin to get on the other side of the confidence that comes from practice and improvement. Is that a big part of self-consciousness? A hundred percent, a hundred percent. I think that there's a huge job of this.

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Like he's speaking the game. I don't think a lot of people know that you really play ball. Like really play ball, not just watching it, not just talking it, like you really play ball. And I came up on the story and we've kind of been talking about in the back. You know, I want you to tell us about this whole Santa Clara recruitment story. And how that went, and then how did that change you and how did it all, you know, make you become who you are today? First of all, Marshall, I played at St. Mary's.

Yeah. I played at Santa Clara same year. Yeah. Arch rival schools. Yeah. We were natural rivals. Because I think I knew about that rivalry because of Delova. Oh, Delhi.

Yeah, Deli and also LP too. You know, I had, you know, Delvedoba was at St. Mary's. He's always, every time that game would come on, he'd be going crazy. Like, you're not even talking. Don't talk to me right now. You know, so I knew a lot about that too with Delova Dover and also Lloyd Pierce too. Your teammate, you know, your teammate, my former coach too. So, yeah, just like, he was probably sitting here, like, wowed it out.

Like, I know him from that movie. Like, but, like, tell us about that whole process. You know, it's so wonderful seeing you after, last time I saw you was in person. Was about 30 years ago a few months before heading. into the draft. So this is a real profound full circle moment for me because I think about you from time to time in a way that I feel like has really resonated as one of my biggest life lessons. I was being recruited coming out of high school. By the grace of God, Dale Demp's, former Pelicans' GM, my high school alma mater, it's like four or five years older than me, saw me playing one day. He was like,

Who's recruiting you? Basically, nobody was. He got me to a camp, and then I was suddenly being recruited by a bunch of schools. So over the course of that next whatever year, certain teams are beginning, the coaches are coming to your house. And, of course, you've got to narrow down to what five schools you're going to go visit. I don't know if it's like that now, but decades ago, when we were being recruited, you could go five school visits.

So long story short, I'm living with my... Now they get paid. Oh, there you go. There you go. Yes. Yes. So my grandfather and I were basically, you know, my grandmother was still working at that time, and it would be my grandfather and I doing my recruiting visits and as coaches would come by.

So now it's getting serious and it's getting very close to like the signing date time. And I'll never forget coming from, I played for what was equivalent to like a high school Bobby Knight. Our coach had a seatbelt on his chair because he had gotten kicked out of game so he would get up and the whole chair would get up with him but he was basically Bobby Knight was Ron Benavides Bobby Knight was basically my coach's idol

so now though in the summer I'm playing with Jason Kid me and Jason are on a team and like 11 out of the 13 of our kids went D1 out of that team we played against Stephen Francis of them on ESPN and all kind of stuff so it was a good time So I'm trying to play that type of basketball, right? Yeah.

Not this whole, you know, three point there all the time. It's just like it was too much. I needed some freedom. So me and my grandfather are sitting there in our house and Ernie Kent comes in. And he had played in Oregon and he was an All-American and all that. He was a brother. I never played for a brother before other than an AAU. So I'm just like, I'm about to play for a black coach.

Oh snap never had this experience and he goes Herschel For us to be successful your freshman year you're gonna have to average 22 points a game You should go into acting I said 22 points a game but freshman year for us to be successful My grandfather is smiling ear to ear. I'm like okay coach get to meet you. We'll give us some thought He leaves I don't know same week probably if I'm not mistaken my coach my high school coach wanted me to go to santa claire so he goes so dick davy comes over the house that was my coach yeah that's santa claire dick davy comes to the house he says good athlete solid defender don't handle the ball very well

you don't shoot it well enough you won't play your freshman year but we'll take you. What? After he left, my grandfather could have kicked his ass, like, walking out. I was, like, he, I was pissed and, like, so the answer essentially was, like, St. I'm not going to San Diego, I'm going to St. Mary. It's like a no-brainer.

No-brainer. Four years later, this M&F is getting drafted, and you know what? Correct me if I'm wrong. He had one scholarship offer in this. United States I had that offer first I turned it down that was not the advice I that was not what I wanted to hear I I went with with with who and what felt and sounded good yeah and I did not average 22 points a game my freshman year I a career average probably like three points a game it didn't well

But Coach said I would go, what Dick Davy said, I would probably go through my freshman year to get to where. It's what everything he probably went through. Exactly. Exactly. Mm-mm-mm. So I had never, I've always looked at you with a, it was just like seeing your lesson run around on the court every day. Or chasing it off of picks, you know. But I really like to celebrate your success.

And I really appreciate the impact, like your journey, your story, and like the little part I plan it from my perspective. You know what I'm saying? And it's wonderful to get to sit down with you. That's incredible. That's an incredible story. Well, I feel the same way. But I mean, before I ask a few more questions, my girl.

So I had one scholarship bumper. If you took that scholarship, yeah, who knows? You'd probably be a great soccer play, right? Right. I mean, that's crazy, right? How it works out. And fortunately, it worked out for both of us.

But that's an amazing story. It's great for kids. And so you don't feel bad. Coach Davy came to see me play late senior year. Probably he'd seen you play way more than he saw me. He came up to see me play in the prevent. like our state championship. Saw me play like a noon game.

We went to like a diner after. And he's like, you got to be the worst defender I've ever seen. But, you know, we'll take you. But we got to work a lot. And so he, that was who he was. We always said as players and as a program, he would negative recruit.

One, to be honest, but two, you know, He wanted to get guys that would come that would be happy that could take it that could respond to that That could respond to the coaching yes yes they could respond so there is a lesson in there it I don't know If it translate as much to today because now it's a business yeah yeah now's a business you can't you Almost have to go follow your car your financial path yeah in a way but the lesson translates to other places right right in life that's that's amazing man yeah appreciate that well you look I'm trying to think like Do any other Oscar winners play hoops?

I mean, you're the only one who played D1, for sure, and we played against each other four years. He could defend. He could shoot it. You know, it wasn't a great shooter, but could shoot it, could slash, good play. It was kind of a combo guard. And won two Oscars.

Yeah, that's insane. What are we talking about right now? What are we talking about? It worked out. It worked out. It worked out. Like, man, you must sometimes just think, like, how did my life just, like, flip?

Yeah. Yeah, I do. Do you feel like a ball player still? Or do you feel like that's so far in the past? I feel like I'm doing the same thing I always did as a kid, which is I feel, I know when you were like, it probably doesn't first articulate it necessarily in the thing that you have success in. But there's just a feeling you're chasing.

There's like a restlessness at night, you can't sleep because there's like a, am I getting close to that thing? There's something, it's like a beacon, an alarm going off, and it like, you get closer to it and it like starts beeping a little louder. So I've been doing that. And by the grace of God, I just feel like an awareness around the urgency to keep living and to keep playing. I think one thing that actors sometimes do really well is some people call it the rest of development. Some people call it just holding on to a sense of play. You know, and I think one thing actors really have to do,

artists really have to do is, is locate the joy. Like locate the joy for the work, the joy for the, you guys do it, like the joy for the, the passion of the like the discomfort, the uncomfortable spaces, because you know it's gonna prepare you for, for a time where you can enjoy how uncomfortable it is. Yeah.

Do you know what I'm saying? App opposed to suffering through the 25th mile or the whatever, it's the, Oh, now I got it to, I got it to finish it. This is how I want to finish it. So I think that there's a joy that one can find in like some of these creative spaces that to me feels the same as it felt when I was like nine years old and I wrote my first poem or something. And I was like excited to share, you know.

Yeah. But you being a ball player and like we always hear the zone. Yeah. You know, we always know, I was in a zone. I felt like I was in a zone. Flow state. Yeah, that flow state. Has there been a moment, and I know it has been,

but there's been a moment that you can read, you know, when you've been on set or you was doing a certain part in a movie or a certain moment where you was just like, I'm in a fucking zone right now. Like, I'm in a zone. Only an athlete would ask that question. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

And you know it too, huh? Yes. Like, don't say cut. Please don't say. I'm just, I'm locked out. Is this dated? Is this on an amazing question, but is this like on a day shoot on the scene? Or can this go last through a whole? Both.

Both. You have the character. So I did, I did Green Book and True Detective two weeks apart. And Green Book was first. I had like a week off and then I had to go right into True Detective. And a True Detective, I'm playing three different errors in three different ages. Sometimes it's 80-hour week shooting. And you literally feel like you're spending so much time being someone else.

that you feel like it's switching. Like you play yourself, but you're living as the other person, right? That space of, I don't even know how you kind of, that was the space I probably have, it's very difficult, but I found myself having just so much fun feeling like the game slowed up. And like you could see things like coming and like the, there's a, there's a fluency that, that you and other actors and directors and that can all kind of like tap into, that when you feel those moments

and they're few and far between, you pray to have as many of them as you can. But when you find those moments, it is something to be cherished. And like, you chase it. So then you're chasing it. You can't let that go. But, like, but yes, I've had a few of those.

And it was, it's a real joy. And then other than that, then it was like way back in school where you like, something, clicks and you figure it out and then you're just you're like oh something makes sense now that had never made sense before excuse the lame basketball analogy but like the two-man game or two-person game like you know you find chemistry like i had chemistry with amari or dirk do you ever get it in a in a role where you're like i have that with this person way more than another person yes um there's some

people where you're already like, oh, we're going to enjoy working together. I recently had that with an extraordinary actor by the name of John Cho. We got to do this, some work together in a film that's coming out called Your Mother, Your Mother, Your Mother. And getting to work with him was one of the real, true highlights of my career. I look forward to you guys getting to see that. Him, another one I actually just, I had an absolute blast was Ethan Hawke. Like he's a genius and I think we kind of there's something that I think we kind of understood about how to share the ball. You know, and it was like I remember playing with Jason.

Jason Kidd and I were on a team for this AAU team and I had always clearly watched them play, not rivals, but like played in the same areas, right? But it was another thing to play with him. And I finally understood what it was to play with someone that made the game easier. You just run the court and suddenly you're like, oh, the ball's just in your hand, like in the right spot. As long as you just do your job, like he could see certain things coming and boom, there's the ball. And like, oh, right in step, in rhythm, lay up, when other people might hold on to it longer because there might be indecisive or, thinking about themselves when playing with Jason,

suddenly I was like, this is what it is to play with a point guard who makes everyone around them better, you know? And so there are certain actors that I've worked off of that have done an extraordinary job and just like making the whole set, making other actors just place, kind of like, outplay the contract. Yeah. Play above, you know. Well, everyone go see your mother, your mother, your mother. Mother, your mother, your mother.

Thank you. Absolutely. I got to. Please do that. And I got to go see. I got to go watch True Detective. True Detective. I got to lock in on it.

See Moonlight? No. True Detective. I'm going to lock in on. Do watch season one. Boom. I know I get the treat in season two when he show up. So I'm all good.

Yeah. True Detective is phenomenal. Thank you. And Moonlight, man. Thank you. It's great to see you. I appreciate you coming on. It's a hard.

You're going to sit down with you both. Really. Thank you for what you do. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you too. Absolutely. Thanks for watching Mind the Game.

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