Mind the Game - The NBA Finals

Episode Date: June 5, 2024

The NBA Finals are set. Luka Doncic, Kyrie Irving, P.J. Washington and the Dallas Mavericks will face Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown, Kristaps Porzingis and the Boston Celtics and JJ Redick and LeBron James are here to break it all down in Episode 9 (dropping tomorrow). What advantages do the Mavs and the Celtics have and how can they exploit one another?Subscribe to Mind the Game with LeBron James and JJ Redick today for more NBA insight, analysis, highlights and more.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Recording in progress. They are now shutting the door. Welcome to Mind the Game with LeBron James and J.J. Reddick brought to you by Uninterrupted and 342 Productions. episode nine of mind the game. LeBron and I do a finals preview. Two fantastic teams in the Dallas Mavericks and the Boston Celtics. I really believe, and I think LeBron does as well, this is going to be an awesome NBA finals. We have talked about a lot of the concepts that we talk about in this episode in prior episodes. So not much to get into from an X&O standpoint. There is one Boston set that we

do spend a lot of time on. And that is Horns 2 or V2. This was a play that I started running when I was on the LA Clippers. A lot of times it would be Jamal Crawford, DeAndre Jordan, and me in the V2 or Horns 2 action. I also ran this a lot when I was on the New Orleans Pelicans. V2, Horns 2. This is how Boston will run it a lot of times. Let's say, Again, Horns 2 or V2, this is a five-out alignment ball handler is in the middle. A lot of times this is Derek White, and there's a bunch of different stuff that you can get to out of this. Just show some of the options. Derek White can pass here.

A lot of times, this is Jason Tatum. Jason Tatum is a screener off the ball, so valuable for the Boston Celtics in creating mismatches. and when they don't switch, creating actions like this. Jason Tatum setting a rip screen on Derek White, he can either flare for a three or he can cut to the basket. Derek White gets this cut probably at least once a game. Another thing they'll run, let's say Drew Holiday is here, and we'll put Jason Tatum here and Jalen Brown here.

These three guys, when they get into this triangle up at the top of V2, they get a lot of good stuff out of this. One thing that Drew is really good at, Jason as well, is if Jalen Brown enters to Jason Tatum, Drew will set this rip screen, and if a team is switching, he'll set it at an angle where he can immediately slip into space. Now, when Jason Tatum hits Drew Holiday on that cut, this could be Derek White on that cut, could be Jason Tatum on that cut, but when they get this cut, they've now got shooting all around them. A lot of times they'll put X-5, they'll put Horford, or, Porzingis in this right here and as this defender goes to help on this slip, the pass goes

to the corner, you get a wide open three. They get a lot of stuff out of that rip screen into a slip. Another basic thing they do, if this is, let's say the five man, we'll just say it's Porzingis. Let's just say it's Porzingis over here. say this is Tatum over here. This was how I used to run it. This could be DeAndre Jordan. This could be Derek Favors.

This could be Jackson Hayes. The point guard, ball handler, will hit the five man. He'll go set a down screen for the shooter or the playmaker. And this guy will come off a little dribble handoff right here. Porzingis, Alhorfer rolling into space, DeAndre Jordan rolling into space. It's like a V2 with a dribble handoff. The flare screen, I've seen Boston run for Christopps Porzingus. So Chris Stops Porzingis will be up top.

He'll hit the wing, he'll get this rip screen, and flare into space. Again, that's a seven foot three guy flaring to 27 feet. Good stuff. The other concept, out of V2 we talk about, and I'll just, doesn't really matter who this is, but a lot of times this is the five man, okay? This is Horns Twist, so the ball handler will come. This will be a screen right here. You get the switch and the matchup you want on the primary ball handler.

This screener will just clear out of there, and then you're right into this downhill right-hand drive. A lot of the stuff we talk about as it relates to the Dallas Mavericks is about pick and roll coverage versus Luca. Again, we've covered all these concepts before, drop, switch, up to touch, blitz. be interesting to see how the Boston Celtics match up across the board. You probably want to stay out of two on the ball. But the numbers, as we talk about in this episode, are pretty surprising when it comes to the most effective way to guard Luca Donchich in pick and bowl.

A bunch of more stuff that we get to on both these teams. Can't wait to call these NBA finals. This is Mind the Game, Episode 9 NBA Finals preview with LeBron James and JJ. Enjoy. Brian, what's up, man? How are we doing? Fantastic. Fantastic. I thought we could just talk NBA finals, maybe a little preview of what's to come for everybody. We are recording this on Thursday. Tonight is game five of the Western Conference. We are going to talk about the Minnesota Timberwolves,

but we are going to go a little bit on the assumption that Minnesota will not be the first team to come back from a 3-0 deficit. Could happen. I'm not saying it couldn't. In which case, this whole episode is fucked. It's fucked. You know, to me there's like different teams, obviously,

but there's a little parallel between you and Anthony Edwards. This is his first time making a deep playoff run. He's 22 years old. your first deep playoff run was at 22 years old you guys got to the finals ended up losing to san antonio what do you sort of remember about that run what do you remember about being in the finals for the first time um what i remember about that run is that was um i was so like i didn't even know what was going on i mean i'm 22 years old you know i'm trying to take in as much of the information as I possibly can.

But more importantly, I just wanted to go out there and not overcomplicate myself with information and just go out and just play free. As a 22-year-old, I feel like that's what you should be doing. I feel like as I got older throughout my career, I could gather more information and still go out and perform. But at 22, it's like, hey, coach, just give me a couple things offensively and defensively, you know, and I'm just going to trust that my IQ and my game, is going to, in my energy level, is going to withstand, you know, the pressure of the postseason.

And I was just out there just playing so, I guess, free. You know, no one gave us a chance, obviously, and no one gave me a chance at 22. It was only my fourth year in the NBA. And, you know, we were, we got to the Easter conference finals going against, you know, the big, bad pistons that, you know, it was beating up on pretty much everybody in the Easter conference. I think they went to like five straight Easter conference finals. So it was just about just going out there and just competing and playing hard and just seeing what happens. And I was able to have a couple great games in that Easter conference finals appearance and then go on to playing the dynasty of the Spurs.

And that is when you actually needed the information. against San Antonio, against Pop, Manu, you know, Tony, Tim, you know, and that crew. And, you know, but it was a great experience, man, just to be able to get to the finals. And that was a time when it was super cool to see the big old Larry O'Brien trophy planted on the court. You know, I remember all those times I used to watching and seeing that. But it was a great experience for, you know, a 22-year-old kid up until that point in my career. I remember, you know, that playoff run, that was my rookie year in the NBA. And it felt a little bit like you guys, because you weren't the favorites against the

pistons, and you certainly weren't the favorites against the spurs. It's that feeling of like playing with found money, right? It's house money. It's just there's a freedom to it. And it's interesting that you say that you kind of didn't really even know what was going on. Does, you know, looking back at that, certainly some of those Warriors cab series, you guys were the underdogs. And then you have your year with the heat and your years with the heat, I should say. And then your year with the Lakers where you're the favorites.

Does the feeling change? Does the mentality change? Does the pressure change? And the reason I bring this up is because I feel like with Boston, there seems to be. a weight. And it's based on past experience. It's based on this season in particular. It's based on the fact that they fucking play in Boston. Their fans, there's an expectation, right? It just it's constant. And as a player, I'm wondering how much you felt that going into a finals where you were the underdog versus the favor. Well, I mean, you're right on, JJ. When it comes to that,

you know, going into a finals where you're in the underdog, You definitely have a different demeanor. You have a different feeling. It's a different weight that's on your shoulders and in your mind and on your back and on your chest or whatever. You definitely feel that. You know, you can feel how less of, you know, anticipation or less of, you know, people saying that you guys are the favorites. You guys should win. This is your series, whatever the case may be.

But I've been on both sides. I've been on sides where, like you said, I've been the favorite and lost. and I've been on the side where I was the underdog and won. You know, so it all comes down to literally who you're matching up against. I mean, listen, let's not get it, you know, messed up or start thinking crazy about, okay, favors, now favors. The best team with the best players and who can withstand runs in the finals, in the postseason, it's going to be the team that's going to win, you know.

And, you know, like I said, when we, was the favorite in one of our series when I was in Miami versus Dallas. You know, we had times where we played exceptionally well but we did not withstand some of their runs and they had some of those runs that took us, you know, a long time to get out of and they controlled.

You know, obviously, you know, playing in the league for so long and me being in the league for so long, those last two minutes of every quarter would decide a game. those last two minutes. And people can say, you know, what about the first 10? Obviously, we know 12 minutes in the quarter. We know those first 10s are important.

But literally, that last two minutes in the third and fourth, those things decide a game and can ultimately decide a series. So, you know, that's, you know, I can feel, I know what Boston is going through, you know, being a favorite and having the weight on their shoulders. And, you know, like you said, the expectation, because they've been there so many times, it's like, okay, how many times?

you're going to climb this mountain to where now you keep sliding back down and not actually getting to the top and going back down the other way. You know, so they're definitely feeling it. But, you know, up until this point, listen, it don't matter who's put in front of you, we're all NBA players and they're taking care of business right now. It's so interesting that the end of quarter, start a quarter's finishing games. It's become a real talking point.

I've heard a number of coaches talk about it. Joe Missoula probably more so than anyone. And, you know, I brought this up this morning with R.J. You look at game four. And up until that point, Dallas had won the last three minutes of the fourth quarter. They had finished that quarter. Yeah. Minnesota, of course, finishes the fourth quarter better in game four. They ended up winning. But there was an opportunity at the end of that second quarter where Carlin City Towns was on the bench with foul trouble.

Rudy Gobert was on the bench with foul trouble. And Anthony Edwards was on the bench with foul trouble. All with three, yeah. And it was a tie game, and it went to halftime as a tie game. Dallas didn't create any sort of separation or margin there. And so when you look at, like in this series, the one guy Joe always brings up is Peyton Pritchard. You know, and look, matchups in the playoffs are different. Peyton didn't play a ton versus Indiana.

But he's always been a guy who checks in at the end of the first quarter. He can help create a margin. He's out there for the beginning of the second quarter. He can create a margin. So it's little stuff like that, little nuances of matchups and rotations and lineups where if you talk about an NBA finals game, and I want you to co-sign this because I've been saying this for last two weeks, it's hard to win in the NBA. It's hard to win a regular season.

It's really hard to win a playoff game. It is fucking extremely difficult. And I know it because I've been there once and I live through what two games we should have one, we just saw what happened with the Pacers in the Eastern Congress finals, it is extremely difficult to win a NBA finals game, to win one NBA finals game. And so it's this little stuff on the margins where you can pick up some separation. No, absolutely. And I co-signed that for sure. I mean, listen, and I lived it as well, obviously. But, you know, for me, like, I've been to the point where... You lived it many more times than I did. You have lived it. I should speak

about you in the president because you're still playing. You know, like you said, I mean, Jay, I've been where I've won one game. I've been where I've been able to win four games to be able to host a trophy. And I've also been on the side that I haven't won one game. And I can look at those, I can look at that one of those, you know, instances where I was like, we had a chance. You know, I look at, I believe it was 2017. You know, 2017, game one in Golden State. You know, we had an opportunity to win that game one.

You know, I remember one play that still burns me inside is, you know, I read Kevin Durant with his right to left crossover. And, you know, and I'm able to step over and get a charge. And, you know, the referees went to go look at it. I still got, you know, you know, still got some hurt feelings about that. And they went over and looked at it and called it a block, a block charge. You know, and, you know, that game didn't go the way it went, you know, as a way we wanted to, but that could change the trajectory of a series. Were we the better team in that series?

I don't know. Were we the most talented team in that series? Absolutely not. I mean, Golden State added a generational player in Kevin Durant, but we had zero room for error that goes along with game one of the Easter Conference Finals this year with Indiana. They don't have room for error going against a team like Boston, and when you have an opportunity to close out the game, You're up three with the ball, with a timeout, and you turn the ball over one, and then you still have an opportunity to possibly foul before the shot goes up or whatever the case may be. MVP at the Eastern Conference Finals, Jalen Brown makes it, and here we are sitting with Boston in the finals.

I want to revisit the fouling up three thing because we did a whole discussion on it, all right? Because it's been a big topic throughout the playoffs. And, you know, on the broadcast, Mike had asked me, what would you do here? I said, you know, I'll always foul. There are times when you can't foul. There are. And I would say there was probably too much separation created by Derek White's back screen. T.J. McConnell doesn't switch.

Yeah. Seacom was not there on the catch. And I asked Joe about it. And Joe said, he teaches you run through the guy. So once the ball is in the air, you come. can basically, I'm not saying tackle, but you run through the guy. Yeah, you do. I feel like he wasn't there right on the catch, and he didn't have time of foul.

But certainly you look at the Chris Middleton shot, right? We talked about this. Yeah, we talked about it. Chris Middleton shot where they're lobbying a pass-in to Brooke Lopez at the top of the key. And it was back towards the basket. Right, back towards the basket. You have an opportunity to essentially run through the guy now. Yeah.

So there's a difference. I want to talk Celtics. If you were to just sort of break down what you think they do best, like what makes them great beyond just the talent. We all know there's a lot of talented teams and they have a surplus of talent. What do you think makes them great? What's the best thing they do? I think they do it with the past that a lot of people don't really give them credit for.

I think they're dribble penetration. And once they see the defense start to rotate, they do it with the past. To be honest, throughout the course of the 48-minute game, they really only have two ISO guys. You know, and that's Jason Tatum and that's Jalen Brown. Obviously, Payne Pritcher has the ability to play low-iso ball as well. But they just have two ISO guys.

The rest of those guys, they move off the pass. They move off the defense shifting. You've loaded up on those two great guards or, you know, great wings and Jason and Jalen. and then now that's when their personnel really kicks in. That's when Derek White is playing on the closeout. That's when Drew Holiday is playing on the close out. You know, that's when Peyton Pritchard is playing on a closeout. Al Horford plays on a closeout, you know.

And I think that's, they don't get enough credit for their ball movement when they're driving the baseline or driving to 45 to slot and getting the defense rotating. And, you know, and that is their, that's their, you know, their superpowers. It's once that ball get to poppin, and they got five guys around that perimeter, that can all shoot the three. They all shoot in high 30s, some of them in the 40s, obviously. But I don't think they get enough credit with how they play with the past and the body movement that they have. Yeah, I think that I would describe what you're saying as the Boston Celtics

are at their best when they're doing that. Yeah. They're at their best. When they're getting you in rotation, and they create that in a number of ways, you bring up the ISO stuff, and when they are five out, you know, they're spaced.

They almost always have five shooters on the floor. Now, against the Pacers, Cornett was out there some because Porzingus was not playing. Tillman was out there some. Brissette was out there some. So they did play some lineups where they had four shooters. Yeah, you know, only four.

Only four. Only four shooters. But for the most part, for the most part, in their eight-man rotation, when they're healthy, they got five shooters. And so you bring up the 45, and I think that's, you know, a great example of just how they get you in rotation. So this is, let's just say, it's Jalen Brown getting to his right hand, right? Jalen Brown getting to his right hand. Yep. And this low guy has to come over, right?

So now you've created a two-on-one over here. As this guy comes over, let's say he kicks to the corner. Now, at that point, Boston has won the possession. Boston has won the possession because you are now in rotation, right? X guy goes, somebody's flying at the slot guy, and it's just beating you with the pass. And they're all capable of playing out of closeouts, as you mentioned. So I think the spacing is to me what starts everything for them offensively.

And the way they're able to get to on the ball. The play that I love, and this is what I want to sort of talk about with you today, is there, you call it horns two, or you call it B2? Yeah, Horns 2. We talked about Horns 2 chest earlier, but in one of the other episodes, I want to talk about their Horns 2 and how sort of they run it. And we'll just put Al Horsford over there. and Drew over here.

And we'll just say Porzingis is not in the lineup for this. So they run it a bunch of different ways. This is, to me, the best thing they do. This is Jason Tatum right here. Correct. Let's just say he's in that sort of right elbow area. Using Jason Tate as a screener because Derek White's defender

is oftentimes one of the weaker guys. This could also be Drew up here. So they use whoever the weakest guy along with J.B. and J.T. And Jason Tatum as a screener creates so much. So let's say they run their horns two flare, Derek White makes the pass, Jason Tatum sets the flare. There are so many things they get out of this. So obviously Derek White for three, they don't switch.

Derek White curling, J.B. hits them. Now all of a sudden you've got shooters, you've got Derek White getting a layup. The other reason I really like this is because they do, I think, a better job than better job than anyone on these rip screens when there is a switch JT setting this rip screen on Derek White if they know they're switching the angle they set this and slip

they get that so much and again so everything is built off of spacing but the way they're able to manipulate matchups do you think whether it is Dallas whether it is Minnesota do you think number one

do you think they have the right personnel Number two, specifically with this Horns 2 flare, we'll talk about the other actions at Horns 2 in a second, but with this Horns 2 flare, is switching the right call against the Celtics, or is there a better way to do it? I think showing any great team,

a steady diet of the same, the same thing throughout the course of 48 minutes is going to be a deaf to you. You have to switch it up. You have to change pitches. You know, you can't just show, you know, great players and great teams, a steady diet of the same, you know, anything. They will get, they will get too comfortable, they will understand it, they will start seeing it, and then they'll expose it. You know, so, you know, I think there are times where you can start, you can switch that action.

But there's times where you have to be extremely physical and body up and trying to. you know, forced to catch out, you can't let the opposite guy if it's Jalen Brown or if it's Al Horford or if it's Drew Holliday, catch the ball right at the elbow. You have to push them off the elbow, maybe just a little bit, you know, and, you know, and a lot of times, you know, a lot of the conversations need to be had before you even get on the floor. You know, you need to be talking about, okay, listen, this is nut crunching time. These are the sets that they're going to go to because they know they're going to get a good shot out of it. So we got to be ready for, you know, but, you know, like you said, Joe do a great job of putting

those guys in position and understanding who's on the other team when they're guarding them. So you look at, you know, with this matchup with Dallas, you know, obviously you got, you got Kyrie, you got Luca, you got PJ Washington, Derek Jones, and Gafford Orr-Lively starting at that five. That position, I'm guessing that Kyrie would be on Derek White. you have Derek Jones and PJ they'll decide who will be on Jalen Brown and Tatum and you have Luca on Drew Holiday they're trying to take away his post-ups

because that's where Drew is really good we've seen how many times he bick-shouldered Obie Topping, you know, in late games, you know, so you're trying to put in... Seacum, Big Shortering early in that series. And ones, you know, he big-shadowed those guys so you want to try to keep a bigger body on Drew And then you'll have Lively or Gafford on Al Horford or Prasenghis if he's available.

So they'll probably have whoever Kyrie is guarding initiate that offense that we just drew up. And see if they can get the switch. See if they don't switch. Can Tatum get a nice clean screen where Derek White or Drew Holiday gets a layup off that flare, gets a three off the flare, cut to the basket, get a layup. This is the worst thing that can happen. that two guys go with one. Where Tatum sets the rip screen,

Kyrie is afraid to take the body off Derek White and he curls around in PJ or Derek Jones goes with them and now Jason Tatum stops back four three by himself. That is the worst thing that can happen. So you have to go in with a definite game plan on. This is what we're going to start with. Let's see if that work. If it doesn't, we'll be ready to make the adjustment.

There's a couple of things I want to run back out. of this. But for the most part, let's just have two offensive players here. Yep. And let's just say this is Jaylen. And let's say you do a good job switching. And this ends up being Jason Tatum. And

whoever this guy initiated the offense, it could be Drew, could be Derek, has now cut through to the basket. Correct. It's interesting because a lot of teams, when you get to this point and you have this 45, as you said, ISO or slot ISO, a lot of teams after this guy has cut through,

will send him weak side to the dunker spot. Boston, a lot of times, they don't do it always, but a lot of times, this is a lot of times Derek, could be Al Horford, a lot of times it's Drew as well, they actually sit in the dunker spot in the strong side. And if Jason Tatum is able to get to his strong hand, this guy, like, doesn't ever help. It's actually bizarre, and Tatum can just drive and score. And the other thing it creates, though, is you're essentially, having these two weak side defenders, then make a decision.

How much do I want to help? Right? You're actually, in some ways, you're taking this guy off the floor. Yeah, you are. If you put them weak side, you know this. If you put, let's say it's Derek White weak side, this guy now is the low man. This guy is the ex-man. He can play too.

Yep, he can play too. So by Boston putting that guy on a strong block, it's almost essentially like defender. you almost like, you feel like don't help strong-sized, strong-sized shooter. So you kind of like, do I go help? Do I help up? You know, it's the same kind of trigger that Denver gives you

when Joker drives right and you got Aaron Gordon right there. It's like, do I help up or do I stay back? Do I play the cat and mouse game? If I help up, lob to Aaron Gordon. You know, so it's very challenging. We've seen, like, we've just seen these conference finals. we've seen many times where Jalen Brown or Tatum

would drive that slot and either X2 or three who's down there guarding Drew or Derek White would help up those guys get just an easy layup or if they don't you get a walk-in layup for either one of those guys so it's a pretty smart thinking

on Joe and his staff yeah I mean I like it I think at least for most of your career and certainly all in my career like I I don't remember teams, and this is something new. I think teams are really paying attention, especially with smaller players, putting them in the dunker spot because essentially you negate them actually being a defender because

they're just small. And by the way, with Dallas, one thing to watch with them, because they played Clippers' first round, heavy ISO team. They played against Shea and Jalen Williams in the second round with OKC, heavy ISO team. and now they're playing against Anthony Edwards isos. So they're equipped. But watch what they'll do. Let's say Kyrie is on Derek White

and they didn't get any switch. And Derek White goes down there. Drew goes down there. If Kyrie is the low guy on an ISO, they almost always will move him out. The other defender on that side will say, switch with me.

It could be Luca, could be PJ, could be Derek. They want to get Kyrie out of there. They want to kick him out of corner. So that he's not going against size. Exactly. Exactly. This is the other one I like, and they'll run this. Well, they run a couple other ones, but this is like Horns 2 twist, basically. So I'm going to put the big up here because a lot of times they will run it. And this could be Cornette with the backups. It could be Horford, but I'm going to put KP here. Yep. So Derek White will come off J.B. J.B. will then cut through. And sometimes he'll space. Sometimes he just kind of stays in the dunker. And then K.P. comes and runs into a ball screen.

And the thing with KP that's interesting in particular about this series, so now you've got Derek White going to his strong hand, one of the best pick and roll ball handlers in terms of efficiency this year according to Second Spectrum, and you got KP popping. And this is against, by the way, this is against Daniel Gafford, it's against Derek lively, right? Yep. This, to me, is probably the biggest question mark I have about two great defense.

I think Dallas and Minnesota have two great defenses. So how do you anticipate them dealing with the Porzingis pick and rolls? You know, that's going to be a big time challenge. And obviously, personnel-wise, you see who's on the floor. But at the end of the day, if Prozenghis is active, then nine times out of ten, they're going to have five shooters out on the floor. So you can't, you know, how, you know, in the OKC series, Dallas was allowed to hide Gaffer at times and lively.

put him on Josh Giddy, you know, and kind of keep them roaming, you know, not afraid of his picking pops, not afraid of him being spaced in the corner so he was able to get away with it to the point where OKC made a change and started, you know, decided to put Josh Giddy off the bench. So that will be the biggest question mark, JJ, on who guards prozingis. Obviously, we know, I believe it will be Gafford and or lively, but how do they deal with that horn's twist action or how do they deal with just a thumb down or a thumb up action where Prince Zing is just runs up from the middle of the floor and probably doesn't even set it all the time and gives those guys a right hand where he's popping and you put in,

you know, X5 lively, you know, lively Gafford, you know, and a pickle in a position where it's like, okay, do I help on the guard or do I allow him to get downhill? So I think what helps in Dallas case, if that is the case, having Maxie Kleber back. I think that helps a lot. I know he's been out for a while since round one versus the Clippers, but it does allow them to now start switching a lot.

And I know that's always challenging against Boston because they have so many great ISO players, but I do think there's times in certain matchups where Maxi can't switch out on some of the Boston guards and contain them. Yeah. He's a very valuable defender. At the very least, he can stay in front and use his length, right?

At the very least. It's interesting because actually today I watched a pretty long edit of all of Anthony Edwards ISOs against the Dallas Mavericks. And it's interesting because you brought up the roaming thing off of giddy. And to me, for the most part in these ISOs, they're kind of just ignoring Gobert. And whoever is on Gobert, whether it's lively, Gafford, Kleba, they are essentially roaming and they're just essentially banking on the fact

that they got multiple guys behind them, right? And they're going to play rotation X game out of that. You can't, you just can't really do that against the Boston Celtics. And there was one clip, there was one clip where, you know, Anthony Edwards had it up top and he was playing in a five-shooter lineup.

It was McDaniels. It was Nasree, Carlton Towns, and Mike Conley. Right. He got past his man. Gafford was forced to help McDaniels get to a slot three. So to me, it's like point of attack defense versus Celtics Isos. And then being great in rotation. But again, this is what you said at the beginning. Like they are so good once they get into the past game, once they get you into rotation, that's to me is when they're at their best. And that's really going to be the biggest issue. I think against Dallas is there isn't somebody to roam off of.

No, nobody. There's not one person you can roam off of that Dallas puts out on the floor. I mean, that Boston puts out on the floor. They are well equipped. They know exactly where everybody is. You know, to go back on what you just said on the Minnesota piece, you know, there's times offensively with Minnesota when Gober is on the floor. you don't quite feel like he knows where to be successful

when they're roaming off of him or the team doesn't know. You know, there was a big time playing game four. You know, Carl Anthony Towns was at the four and essentially, Kyle Anderson was playing the five. And, you know, there was a play where Anthony Edwards was ice-old on the right wing and no one was guarding Kyle Anderson.

And Kyle Anderson, we know, is one of the smarter guys in NBA, he used what they were doing against him to the benefit for Kat and was able to set a flare screen opposite the ball onto Kyrie and got Kat a big time three. I mean, up until that point, I think Kat made one before that, but up until that point, through the first three and a half, three games in three quarters, Kat had zero airspace. But going back to what I'm saying, Kyle Anderson just used his brain and saying, okay, yes, you guys want to shit on me because I am not a spacer. And me playing the dunker doesn't benefit because I'm not super athletic. I can't catch lobs.

But you know what? I know there's a guy not guarding me. So I know that if I'm setting a screen on someone, then my guy can't help him. And that was a big time shot. They went up six, forced Dallas to call a timeout. So, you know, you have to be able to play the game within the game. We want to celebrate, and I think we're being very positive with the Celtics right now. We're not trying to make it seem like they're unregardable against...

I know Laker Nation is going for the Dallas Laker Mavericks. Yeah. Look, but I do want to make a point. And I don't think Minnesota has been very clean with their stuff. spacing. Your point about Gobert is a valid point. I don't think they're clean with even simple stuff like a slot ISO. You know, watching this stuff, a slot ISO, you typically have the ballside player all the way in the corner. A top ISO or even just a shade left or right at the top, You typically have the next man spaced to the four point line, 45 degrees.

Their spacing is very dense. Their spacing is very condensed. Sometimes the guy doesn't get all the way to the corner. Sometimes the next man is like eight feet away when he's got the space to move. And so, yeah, you're like, oh, Anthony Edwards, you turn the ball over. I think it was game two where he just didn't drive the basketball. And you're like, where is he supposed to go? Yeah, there's eight guys.

There's eight guys and 16 eyes right there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, I, I, my, my curiosity about the way Dallas has played against these ISOs, because again, Boston, I want to say, was the fourth most frequent ISO team in the regular season. J.B. Tatum, large part of that, to your point, they have been, even against shooters, whether it's Mike Conley, Jaden McDaniels, Isaiah Joe at times, you know, Cason Wallace at times, even against shooters, they've been more than willing.

I don't want to call it overhelp, but overshow help position against isolation. Yeah. Like they are, and then just rely on the closeout. And I don't know if they do that against Boston, but that's something that I'm very curious about in terms of how they have their shifts against isolation. Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, because we know that, that on any given day, any given evening, that Boston can ring off 25 May threes. You know, and that is very frustrating for a defense, you know, where, you know, as a player, you know, we go into a game and you're like, okay, we want to be heavy shift. We want to create no lanes for these two guys, you know, but we're giving up 60 attempts from the three-point line,

in which case they can make 25 of them. So I have a lot of confidence, you know, that Jay Kid and his staff, you know, being able to work with those guys for some years, that they will have a game plan that's similar to what they've been doing, obviously. Because, you get, I mean, when you get to this point of the postseason, you can't just tear everything up and throw it away and say, oh, we got a new thing for them. No, no, you can't do that. Yeah, yeah. You built these habits all throughout the year and the post-season. but they will have some things that will be different from what they've done, you know, versus Minnesota, versus OKC, versus the Clippers, you know, once they face

Boston, because it's just a different beast. It's a different monster. We know that. Yeah, and the other thing I would just say is whether it's PJ Washington, whether it's Derek Jones Jr., those two matchups against J.B. and Jason Tatum, look, those guys can stay in front at times. It's not like they're getting beat every time. time. And I would say

Tyree's engagement level defensively, let's say there is a switch on an ISO, and you've got PJ Washington with Lank, Derek Jones Jr. with Lank in a shift, that stuff matters. They are equipped. They are equipped

to defend this Boston team. I believe that. I agree. But this Boston team is a different animal offensively than anything they've faced so far, and it's because of the spacing and the shooting. And I think that's fair. And when it comes down to being shifted, the worst thing you can do is have guys out on the floor that's in a two-way stunt. And meaning when I say that is, okay, if we want to be shifted, you need to be in to start.

So when you're already in and you're showing lift, you're showing hands, once that pass happened, it's just a one-way stunt. You've already at the ball, you're at the level, and I'm getting out. but, you know, sometimes, you know, guys pride versus certain teams and the versus J.B. and Jason Tatum, you're like, okay, we need to, I want to, this is my matchup. And then a drive happens, and now you're doing a two-way stunt. You're going from being bodyed up to now trying to stop the ball and then try to get back out.

It's too late. So it's either one or the other. Either you're going to live with giving up drives to Boston and not helping on the threes, where you're going to be in to start ready to fire out and getting contest and getting high hands and listen, you're going to have to fly around

because one thing I've learned in the NBA listen, we can write it, we can script it, but sometimes you just got to figure that shit out. Let's just figure it out. There's going to be times where you absolutely fucked up that possession because either a communication breakdown or you heard

switching your head, but it was something else from uh you know it was something else called and you still need to get a stop sometimes you's got to figure it out so you know just being engaged while the course of 48 minutes 24 seconds on that shot clock because boss is going to make you work boss is going to make you work i don't think there's a best way i don't think there's a good way um to guard luca donchich in a pick and roll and you know you brought up mixing it up against great players and and for the most part Minnesota has I think game three was probably the most egregious example of mixing it up in all the pick and rolls over 20% of the pick and rolls they switched over 20% of the pick and

rolls they were in drop over 20% of the pick and rolls they blitzed Luca by the way 14 times in his career that's happened where over over Over 20% has seen, you know, all three coverages has seen over 20%. If you had to guess, I'm just, I've not shared the numbers. If you had to guess, and they're very consistent regular season to playoffs, what do you think is the most effective defense? And this is points per chance. So this is like legitimately, it doesn't matter who scores.

Do the MAV score? It doesn't matter if Lucas scores. Points per chance. What do you think is the most effective by the number? numbers regarding gluca and pick and roll by the numbers i will say blitz yeah i will say blitz um and the reason i say blitz is because i look at the other two and it's it's not switching because they they don't run many small small pick and rolls they run a lot of one-five pick-and-rolls you know when it comes to you know because the five is you know usually not as mobile or whatever

not as agile. So they try to bring the five up and they have those two lob threads, which Luca loves. So I know that switching is not it. We saw that at the end of game two in the Western Conference Finals. And then dropping pick and rolls,

he's just too big. Luca's too big at his frame and his size. You drop his pick and roll. He gets the hostage, put you in jail. And now you're asking the big to make the decision. on should I help up? Should I give ground? As soon as you help up, lob to Gafford lively

or corner kick pass to the three-pointer. So I'm guessing I just did process of elimination, JJ. I will say blitz and place the onus on the five-man in the short role to make a play. And let's see if Lively and Gafford and, you know, Dwight Powell played a little bit because of obviously Lively's injury, you know, in game four or game three.

So I would say that. You live with those chances. Okay, so you are correct by the numbers, by the number. And actually, these numbers are remarkably consistent. Regular season of playoffs versus drop coverage, points per chance. They get right around 1.10. So 110 points per 100 versus Switch, the worst option. You were correct on that as well.

Right, in between 112 per 100 in the playoffs and 115 versus a switch per 100 in the regular season. In the regular season versus a blitz, and he was the most blitz player in the NBA, 0.97, so 97 points per 100 per chance against a blitz, and it gets even worse in the playoffs, 0.67, and he is the most blitz player in the playoffs. You know, it's interesting, thinking about Drew specifically and his size. I think there's a similarity with Lou Dort that it's not like you're going to have to blitz all the time. You know, the way Lou got into the basketball and fought over screens and used his strength and size, it kind of matched Luca in some ways. Drew's a smaller player, but he has those same physical qualities. So I don't think it's going to be like necessary where you've got to blitz luke all the time.

I'm sure at times they'll mix it up. Boston, by the way, I want to say, I don't have the exact number. I want to say they blitzed around 3% of all pick and rolls this year. They are not a blitz team. No, they're a heavy switch team. Yeah. And two, in some of that, if it's with the five, the X-5,

you got Derek White and Drew Holiday, you trust those guys. Your point, though, I think is the most important thing to me. is Luca as a decision maker is one of the best in the game. Even against a blitz, he can make the pass that leads to a shot.

I mean, there was one play. He comes off a blitz to his right hand in the high slot and makes a wraparound baseball pass on time on target to the opposite corner. There's just, there's five guys in the world that can make that pass.

But by taking the ball out of his hands, that's not going to be every time you blitz. that he's going to have the pass that leads to a shot. You are creating a decision for someone else to make. And I think that's the important point. That's the important thing. And I believe that just watching, you know, just watching that end of the game,

you know, I hate to keep harping on, you know, Rudy, but, you know, them switching that pick and roll at the end of game, too, you know, I would have been okay with the switch. but I wouldn't have been okay with not now firing to get the ball out of his hands. Switch to blitz. Switch to blitz, you know, kind of, because, you know, you get the switch, and when Luca sees the big on him, his eyes get like this. So now Luca backs up.

He backs up because he's now, okay, I'm about to get into my shit. But as soon as he was about to get into his shit, I would have sent another defender right away. You know, not only, not only, doesn't make, you know, a second guess to Luca. Obviously, he's seen everything, but it takes time off the clock. And then ultimately, what we all care about is getting the ball in somebody else's hands. I mean, obviously, if it's Kyrie, the next guy, he's just as dangerous as well.

But, you know, you take your chance when it comes to Luca versus five or the rest of the field versus the rest of the field. Yeah, I mean, if you watch that play, again, after the screen was set, I think it was lively. They cut down essentially the middle of the pain. And Jane McDaniels went with them and there was a split second where I was like, y'all, he's going to go double.

And he didn't do it. When we played Kauai in 19, when he was on the Raptors and I was on the Sixers, by like game three or four, we were like, this guy, he's killing single coverage. And so rather than like me showing, or James, you know, it's like, let's just switch it.

And then as the guy cuts through, just go with him for a second and then switch to Blitz. I'm not saying we had a great success with that. It's something we can do. I think at the end of the game, that's something that you have to have in your bag. That is absolutely something you have to have in your back. I'm like, if Luca's ISO at the top of the key

against anybody in the world, anybody in the world, this is not a knock on Gobert, Luca's going to get a good shot off. Absolutely. He's going to get a makeable shot off. Absolutely. Oh, I got another question for you, JJ, regarding Luca.

I have an idea. So I was watching the game, this is game four to just happen. Minnesota's up six, right? Luca is bringing it in transition. And obviously, he hits the four-point play. I don't, was it a foul? I don't know.

I'm not going to get involved in that. How do you feel about also filing up six to keep it a two-possession game? I was sitting here watching the game, and I'm like, if I'm up six and they make a three, it becomes a one-possession game. But if I foul while he's bringing the ball up and they go to the line he makes two, It's still a two-possession game. Well, Joe Missoula did that in game one in overtime. I don't know if you caught it.

I don't think I caught it. Okay. So, and I want, I can't even, I think it was T.J. McConaley? He fouled somebody. Maybe he was tied. Maybe he was tie, but they were up six in O.T. That's Joe Missoula. Guys are fucking genius.

Joe Missoula fouled and sent them to the free throw line. No. It is a, the one more I talk to you. By the way, it was the first time I'm like, oh, foul up six. The more and more I talk to you, the more and more I like this Joe guy. Because I'm starting to get some, yeah, he, yeah. You got to think outside the box a little. Absolutely.

And I see why he sits over there and he says absolutely nothing and he's calm as fuck. He only gets a little like when, like, he knows they're not playing the right way offensively. It's never defensively. It's never because of the three-point attempts. It's never, ever, if a team makes a run. He's calm. It's only when they don't play the game the right way that he gets a little angry.

But I don't know how I missed that. Maybe I was just like they was up six and I probably just stopped watching the game at that point. But I saw it. I was like, Lucas bringing the ball up. And I'm like, get the ball out of his hands. Or just fucking foul him. He's shooting 75% from the free throw line.

Anyways, he might miss one. The funny thing is, he made the three, but missed the free throw. So they was still at 103, 100. Last point I want to make on the Blitz, and then we'll wrap is just Dallas, it's interesting against the blitz. We have talked a lot, and I think specifically about when you blitz Steph Curry or you blitz Jamal Murray versus Yokic, and you get the ball to the middle of the floor, you've created the four on three. and you get the weak side corner cut for the lob. Dallas really doesn't do that a lot. What they want, they want the corner three.

So Luca's blitzes are one of the ways they create corner threes. Corner threes are the best shot in basketball in terms of behind the arc, right? If you can create spot corner threes, that's a good shot analytically. And how they do that, when they get the ball to lively, when they get the ball to Gafford in the middle, They don't cut against that two-on-one. They do not. And so, you know, I've just, if they, I don't know that they blitz, but the other point is what Luca does,

and like Derek Jones Jr. got one. I think he was in game two from the right corner. Luca against a drop, if you're in a shift against him out of the corner, he'll go up to shoot late pass. Late pass. Right? So, yeah. That, Dallas, because this is going to be a math,

there's going to be a math game to this. Don't tease me on this, please. Don't tease me on this. It's a real thing. Can Dallas create enough threes against Boston? That's going to be important. And one of the ways they create threes is against the blitz by getting the ball to the corner. And I think that's why Boston defends the way they defend to take away the three.

And it's going to be interesting to see, like you said. And you would think that with Dallas ability to have the athleticism of people, Jay, Washington, and especially Derek Jones, that they would get a little bit more corner cuts for lobs and dunks. You know, maybe not as lobs because, you know, you don't want Gafford or lively throwing lobs, but they can make bounce passes and they can make some passes on time on target. But they want to create and generate threes.

That's what our league is about. So that, you know, that's a great point, JJ, and the fact that that's what we're going to have to see, how will Dallas create enough three-point shots according to how Boston defends throughout the course of the season. I lied, I have one more question and one more time.

No, it's only because Jason hit me today and he's like, hey, I want you to ask LeBron what his favorite thing about, what is his favorite thing about X player? You know, he's like, I'm always like, what's my favorite thing about Luca?

And he named some random thing that Luca did, which is like, he happens one. That's a game. Like, whatever. No, I'm just kidding, Jason. The one guy we haven't talked about, by the way, is Kyrie Irving. And to me, he's like the ultimate sort of X factor in all of this. Because when he has it going, it takes Dallas to a whole other level.

And it also, it offsets Luca, and we've seen it in the playoffs, it offsets Luca not being at his best. It offsets a bad shooting performance. It offsets a great defensive. performance against him. Yep. If Kyrie has it going. Yep. So with Kyrie, what is your favorite thing about Kyrie, the basketball player?

Listen, I will call Kyrie the wizard all the time. Like, all the time. Like, there was nothing on the basketball floor that Kyrie couldn't do. And sitting here watching it, you know. I'm like, I'm playing like, so fucking happy and so proud and to watch him and continue his growth and whatever the case been being. At the same time, I'm so fucking mad at the same time that I am not his running mate anymore. So I'm like, I just remember those times. And back to what you were saying, JJ, like he, to have a guy like Kyrie Irvin as the ultimate wild card.

It's like having a It's like having a draw for in your hand every time someone deals you cards in Uno Like every single time Because he has the ability to Like you said I saw in game one West Congress finals game one

You know I think up to that point I don't know the stat Because I'm not writing down the stats And I don't call the games like you guys But I think Kyrie was only averaging like Eight points in the first half Like in the second round of the playoffs

You know He was getting 16 to 20 in the second half, but in the first half of games, you know, he wasn't... It was like six to eight. Yeah, I don't know the exact number. It was six to eight.

You know, and you're like, okay, you know, you know you're going to have Kyrie in the fourth, but I need you sometimes in the first half, too, brother. But like, what he did in game one, it was like, at the Western Conference Finals, you was like, that was like, oh shit, Dallas may be able to,

not only win the Western Conference Finals, they might be able to win the whole thing because of that wild card. I don't, I don't, I have so many words to praise Kyrie that I end up with absolutely none because it's just, it's so, he's the most gifted player to NBA has ever seen. He has the best gifts I've ever seen of any NBA player.

I've never seen a guy in my NBA life. that feels better at times shooting with his off hand than he does with his primary hand. If Kyrie's off in a game with his right hand, he will literally go exclusively to his left hand. I've never seen nothing like that. The shot, one thing I'm thinking, the shot that he made versus Denver towards the regular, into the regular season on Joker, it's one of the most ridiculous shots I've ever seen in my life. yeah he's just that special i i said this in the first round close-out game i think it was the close-out game he had he had p j iso right in front of the dallas bench oh my goodness and he

go and he went to his triple package and he he hit him with the left to right and then did the delay gather with his footwork to create the separation shot it uh ball goes in he doesn't see it and he kind of just reacts to his, you know, his teammates and the crowd. I'm not sure P.J. Tucker could have played better defense. And I made the comment on air. And I think I mean this. I'm not sure there's ever been a player that's more aesthetically pleasing when he has it going. Like it's, his game is beautiful.

You know what I'm saying? He always talks about he's, you know, basketball players are artists. He's an artist out on the court. And I got to be honest. Like, it's not invalid. I'm sometimes like, yeah, this guy's an artist. You called him a whizzer, I'll call him an artist. It's there.

And by the way, we're both saying the exact same thing. And he's just, he's remarkable. Yeah. Always good catching up. Appreciate it. Always. All right. That shot from JJ, what the hell?

Yeah. What do you say fuck me for? What am I? Yeah, yeah. What does that fuck me for? What's your favorite thing about Luca? You're such a Luca Homer. That's all it comes down to.

Oh, no shit. Really? What gave that away? Hey, guys. Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching Mind the Game Podcast. If you like it, please sit there's subscribe. Thank you.

Hello, I'm Dax Shepherd. And I'm Monica Padman. And we love talking to people. Every Monday and Wednesday, we sit down with actors, authors, scientists, really anyone interesting, and have real honest conversations about life, success, failure, and everything in between. We get vulnerable, we get nerdy, and yes, I occasionally overshare. Me too. And I would say more than occasionally.

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