Mind the Game - The NBA Playoffs and Coach Keith Dambrot

Episode Date: April 17, 2024

Welcome to Episode 5 of Mind the Game with LeBron James (The Los Angeles Lakers) and JJ Redick, where we talk all things NBA Playoffs and welcome in LeBron's high school coach, Keith Dambrot. Our full episodes are available on YouTube, Spotify, Apple and wherever you get your podcasts. First, we open with JJ's brief explanation of concepts like Icing, Top-Locking and Motion Offense. Then LeBron and JJ open up about the difference between regular season basketball and playoff basketball. JJ asks LeBron about his first ever playoff game with the Cavs (Cleveland Cavaliers) and his big game winner in 2009 against the Orlando Magic. Then the guys talk about the mental toll of a 7 game playoff series and JJ highlights some of his own mental mistakes in the playoffs. We also have a deep discussion about the role of luck or chance in the playoffs and talk about THE SHOT from Ray Allen in the 2013 NBA Finals between the Miami Heat and the San Antonio Spurs. Then we bring in LeBron's high school coach, Keith Dambrot to talk about what it was like to coach LeBron at such a young age. Keith provides wisdom for all coaches at any level about working with stars, role players and more. This is a special one so let's get to it! Subscribe to Mind the Game with LeBron James and JJ Redick today for more NBA insight, analysis, highlights and more.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Make my mom proud. Yep. Yep. Welcome to episode five of Mind the Game with LeBron James and J.J. Reddick brought to you by Uninterrupted. and three, four, two productions. Today's episode is a very special episode. It's a two-part episode. LeBron and I lay the groundwork for the NBA playoffs,

what makes them different, what the experience is like as a player going through it. And we are also joined by LeBron James' high school basketball coach, Coach Keith Dambrot. Coach Dambrot coached for 40 years at the college and high school level. He was the head coach at Central Michigan, Akron, and of course his latest stop, Duquesne, where they made the NCAA tournament and won their first round game. Coach Dambrot is now retiring. Just a fascinating conversation we have with him. Again, this show is about basketball,

and we are going to cover all aspects of basketball, including college, high school, youth development, FIBA, the WNBA. I know we, We spoke at length last week about the icons in women's college basketball. So awesome to get coach Keith Dan Bratz experience, expertise, and insight through his lens. And, of course, through his lens, what it was like to coach a freshman and sophomore LeBron James in high school. There are a few different concepts that we talk about in episode five. Perhaps most importantly is something called top locking. And I want to be very clear on this because there tends to be some confusion, particularly from Jason Gallagher.

It is not top blocking. It is top locking. Top locking is an off-the-ball defensive scheme where you force, the shooter, the offensive player coming off of a wide pin down or at any sort of off ball screen and you force him towards the basket. You get on his high side or his top side and you force him back towards the basket or the baseline. All right. Let's say the ball is right here. Defender there. Let's say there is a shooter in the corner and there is a big guy that's going to screen away for the shooter.

As he comes down to screen, this big would drop to protect the basket, and a top lock is simply when the shooter's man gets all the way on the outside, forcing him back towards the basket. The protection, again, comes from this big, or whoever is guarding the screener, who drops back. Again, top locking, not top block. Oh, real quick, on the top locking thing, which, again, this is a little bit of a cheat code for the Boston Celtics.

Let's say that this is Christopps Porzingis, and let's say this is Jalen Brown. At any point in time, if Christops Porzingis goes to set an away screen on Jalen Brown, and Jalen Brown's defender gets into a top lock, and Christop's Porzingis defender drops back to provide support, Jalen Brown can just go set a screen right here, and you've got Christop's Porzengis Defender drops back to provide support. got Christops Porzingis hopping into space for an open three. That's sort of the counter if you have a shooting big. Also, similar to top locking, another concept that it comes up in the conversation is icing or downing. Ising or downing a pick and roll is when the defender guarding a ball handler on a side pick and roll gets again on the high side or the top side and forces it

towards the baseline. The big man who is covering the screener drops back towards the baseline towards the basket to give support to the defender on the ball handler. Again, the defender on the ball handler has completely opened up, gotten on the ball handler's top side, and is forcing the ball down towards the baseline. We've got two offensive players here. The screener goes into a pick and roll over here on the side of the court. As that's happening, the big defender would shout ice or downs. Again, some teams have color concepts for this, but ice or down, he would then drop to provide support, and the guy guarding the ball would jump on the high side of the offensive

player, of the ball handler, and force it down towards the baseline. That is an ice. or down. Motion offense. Motion offense is simply a five-man offensive scheme that relies on screening action, ball movement, and body movement. Motion offense typically is very free-flowing. There's not a set action that leads to another action.

At least that's how I was taught it. Motion offense just means you're running pin downs, away screens, you're moving the ball side to side. Again, you're just in motion. You know how I was taught motion offense was three out, two in. So three offensive players outside the three point line and two offensive players inside the three point line. And again, motion offense could be any one of these options. You pass to the wing and you go screen away and replace. As that's happening, maybe you get a cross screen here and you replace. Let's say none of that work. It works. Ball was over here on the right side. Ball goes back to the top of the key. Again, motion offense. Let's say you can run a pin down here, run a pin down here. That's just motion offense. Is ball body movement pin downs, away screens, cross screens, motion offense. Flex offense is another offense we talk about. Flex offense very simply is a half court offensive scheme that relies on a.

a baseline screen and then a pin down. And that is a continuous offense. A lot of high school teams run it. College teams still run it. Remember Boston College when we played them and I was at Duke, Coach Al Skinner. That is literally all they ran offensively was the flex offense. Gary Williams and Maryland also ran the flex offense a ton.

This is just a basic flex offense. So you'll have five offensive players. And a lot of times a ball handler will enter it this way. He would pass to one of the men up top and make some sort of cut off the other high guy. Once that happens, we are in a flex alignment. And this, all it is is a baseline screen looking for a layup into a pin down. And again, once you pin down, you go back out to the corner and this can be continuous baseline cut pin down some teams that still run this once this first pin down happens a lot of times this is a big this is a guard he would then just

come back and set a high pick and roll and you play out of that so you can run flex to get into other actions or you can make flex continuous as always thank you for listening and watching the mind the game podcast with lebron james and j j reddick if you haven't already please hit that subscribe button go follow us on whatever audio platform you listen to us on thank you for all of the support thank you for all the feedback thank you for all the discussion points and my new favorite thing my new favorite thing from mind the game podcast is when i'm watching a game and i happen to be on my twitter account and one of you guys points out a slot cut one of you guys points out one of the actions we talk about on the podcast.

Pretty awesome for us. So, appreciate you all. And this is episode five of Mind the Game. End game. Game two, one of your most iconic shots. What game? Game two, 2009 conference finals. Oh, yeah.

Orlando. I have a question about that play. Because that is an example of a, you know, off-off-ball movement, catch-and-shoot three. Yep. So if I remember correctly, Moe was taking it out. Yep. Delante set like a flare screen for Olgascus, right, right here. I think it was Pavlovich just kind of ran to the ball.

kind of ran to the ball. Yep. And you were over here on this elbow. You actually never got a screen on that play. No, because I was supposed to, the play was for to fake up and go back door for the lob. And Turk played it.

And Turk played it perfectly. Okay. So I faked up, and I tried to go back for the lob, and I said, it's not open. It's not open. So I just came to the ball. And Turk fucked that up.

Yeah. My only issue on that play? I didn't even see Richard. He had a hell of a contest. Yes. He was guarding the ball. He was guarding the ball. I didn't see until after the fact.

I never saw him. I never saw him. You only saw Turk. Only saw Turk. Do you remember your first playoff game? My first playoff game, I do. What do you remember about it? I was nervous as fuck.

That's what I remember. This was third year? This was third year. Third year. Yeah. And I don't know. I mean, we can look it up and figure out

when was the last time to capture during the postseason. But that was just like, my first year, okay, I was like stabbing myself for my first year. Second year, we missed the playoffs

by maybe one or two games. And it's like, okay, I'm here to like play ball, but I want to make the next step. I got to get this franchise to the post season. And my third year, we finally made the post season

and our first game was against Washington at home. I was nervous as hell. My stomach was hurt in all goddamn long, all day until, literally until the ball jump. Why do you think, like, what have you reflected on that? Why do you think you were more nervous

for that game than any other game? Well, it was two games. My first ever game in Sacramento, and then I didn't want to fucking lay an egg. I think everybody was watching. This is not a narrative podcast. I just want to be clear on this. But I think what you're admitting here is that you felt the burden.

You felt the pressure. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Pressure. Who's under more pressure? Yeah, who is it? What is pressure? What is pressure?

No, I didn't want to lay an egg, man. I was, what, 20, 20 years old, got the team to the postseason. I don't want to go out there and shit to bed. I was maybe 21, maybe. But, like, I didn't want to shit to bed. First playoff game, you know, look out there's Gilbert Arenas and Antoine Jameson and Karran Butler and those guys. They were playing great ball a year.

We're inexperienced as hail. I didn't want to lay an egg. Would you have? 32.11. I laid an egg, all right. And they lock a room. Yeah. I think, I think, don't quote me on this.

I think it was like 35, 7 and 6 or 357 and 7 or something. Well, for the whole series? For the whole series. Yeah. Oh, shit. Not bad. Yeah, not bad. Not bad for the first one.

You've played in a ton of playoff games, obviously. You've won championships. There's a lot that's different about the playoffs in the regular season. What is it? What is different about the playoffs? In general or for me? In general. We'll get to you specifically.

In general, as you know, as you've played them, a lot of post-season games, too. One possession can lose you the series. And compared to the regular season, you can get away with some slippage. You can get away. It's four and five nights. Fucking tired.

You know, it's a cold-ass Tuesday night in Milwaukee. You know, you're like, holy shit. Not this Milwaukee team, I mean, obviously you get up for those guys, but in the post-season, one bad stretch it could be a fucking 6-0 run it could be a turnover here it could be you didn't top you didn't top lock j j when we told you we top locking him all series and now he didn't see him one go in even if you there's times like where you you know you

could win a playoff game and because the way you finished the game you already lost the second one. You don't let that fucking guy or that person get into a rhythm in the fourth quarter because you decided you didn't want to lock in for eight to nine more minutes. And yes, we won the game, but now we may lose the war.

Yeah. The mental side of the playoffs, by the way. Thank you. Yeah. Particularly against a really good opponent. Yeah. I think it was in episode one, you said, the further you go into playoffs, to win, you have to be a high IQ team. Yep.

It's obviously emotionally draining because of the, there is pressure. It's different. You feel more with each win and loss. You get to two losses in a series. You get to three losses in a series. an elimination game. You're down three, two. You've got to go on the road to San Antonio.

They won the championship last year. You've got to muster up enough to beat them to get back home. That emotional toll is a lot. The physical toll, of course, playing. To me, like the mental side of it, I think that is a huge separator because oftentimes mental mistakes

within a game can lead to a series loss. For sure. I think about one I made. I was in Orlando we were playing in the conference finals against Boston and I had played a good game and there was a timeout let's say there was 29 seconds there was a five or six second difference between shot clock and game clock and go to the timeout I know we have a timeout I know we have a time out we get to stop I get the rebound the dribble first no first I looked at Stan

And I'm not saying it was his fault. I knew there was a timeout. I knew I should have called a time out. I looked at him and he didn't do anything. So then I just instinctively put the ball on the floor and then he called a time out. Yeah, and now you can't advance the ball. So now we've got three seconds

and we've got to take it out three quarter court opposite foul line. And we didn't get a good shot off. Now, we were down. I don't know that we win anyways, but that's an example of like a mental mistake. I'll give you another one. And this one has bothered me for four years.

And I'm not throwing this guy under the bus because I think his intention was right. 2020 playoffs, conference finals, you guys are up 1-0 on Denver. And you're down at the end of the game. You've got the ball underneath the basket. Mason Plumby checks in the game to guard Anthony Davis. You were on the left elbow. Anthony Davis is on the right elbow.

Danny Green makes some cut or whatever and Anthony Davis runs to the left wing you never set a pick in fact your back was turned to Anthony Davis and Mason Plumley correct because I was just looking at dough like give me the ball I know and Mason Plumby point switched

point switched and Anthony Davis hit the game winning three yeah now you're down 2 oh like that stuff the little tiny plays it's weird because in the playoffs I would say the little plays get amplified more. Does that make sense? Yep.

Versus a regular season, you go through 82 games. It doesn't feel the same way. Yeah. That's why my body language is so bad throughout the regular season because I'm trying to gear them up for the postseason because I don't understand.

Some guys don't understand. Like, it's one play. Like you're saying, one play can be the difference between your ass going home and going to cowboy or Cancun or wherever the hell you're going or going to Disneyland or Disney World with the trophy in your hand.

Do you think the sort of game within the game of coaches is different? Meaning. Bob Myers maybe didn't originate this, but I know that he said it at some point. There are 82 game players and then there are 16 game players, right?

Do you think that in some way, there are regular season, like good regular season coaches versus good playoff coaches. Like how much does coaching matter in the NBA in the playoffs? That matters a lot. Preparation. How much prep are you getting

going into a series to win? You get out there and you're kind of ready for, you know, everything that's going to be throwing at you. And obviously everybody makes adjustments and then you've got the great players that don't matter what type of fucking game playing you got on them they're going to exploit it no matter what but as much as you can

be prepared going out for a series and you know you know I changes you know that game one is kind of like the filler game you know you almost like tell your players just go out and just fucking play like just go out and play game one don't think too much because if you start thinking too much now you can't even just like

be you can't even just be a player no more because now you're just trying to think the game but me personally I want overload You want overload I want all the information Everything everybody every individual Every pros and kind

And I don't do that throughout The 82 game regular season I'm not I don't have the time to do that I don't have the time The league has changed a lot With practice time Shoot around time The amount of time you spend in the film room

It just has Yeah it has And I was I was fortunate I would say fortunate five of my first six years, I played for Stan. I also played for him my last year in New Orleans, yeah. When you talk about the preparation, it was interesting to me that he prepared for a regular season game the same way he prepared for a postseason game.

So we're in shoot-around for an hour and a half. We got knee pads on. We're going live. I remember at the end of shoot-arounds, he would be like, all right, these guys haven't run this play in five games. This is an ATO, but they haven't run it in five games. I want to be prepared for it. Let's go through it.

Oh, you guys didn't do it right. Let's go through it again. That's the rouse tree. 100%. That's the rouse tree. Spoh's the same way. So when we got, but my point is when we got to the playoffs, it didn't feel any different when we were prepping for a playoff game.

Yeah, for sure. That's supposed the same way. That's the rouse tree. You come from that Pat Raleigh tree. That's just you prepare every day like it's your last, for sure. You mentioned the word exploitation again? how much mental energy in a playoff series playoff game are you spending on exploitation how to exploit the other team you personally 48 minutes yeah and if we need 53 or 58 the whole game

how can you because I'm trying to generate easy buckets easy buckets easy and I want to get my guys in a rhythm and how can we exploit the matchups and the players that's on the floor. Sometimes I get a little disrespectful to it as well. Certain guys come on the floor, I'll say it right on the free throw line while we're shooting a free throw. They're shooting a free throw. Yo, we're putting him into action. Thumb down him.

Yeah. I want him to know that, like, you know, we're going, we're going at him in the postseason. I'm glad I've never played against you in the postseason. Well, I guess I did. Nine minutes in game two. 2009. I think the other thing for me in playing and in watching is can you create good offense down the stretch? that's true of course in any basketball game

I think it's harder and harder the further you go in the playoffs yeah it is I mean obviously the the IQ which I always come to the IQ from the coaches to the players heightened and get better as you go on and on and on

and on and once the players get better too as well I feel like being able to execute certain guys are able to execute better than others and teams or whatever the case may be because nothing nothing bothers them in the pressure moments

sometimes the lights are too bright for certain individuals I would say this though here's the thing that's a fair point I'm not disagreeing for my career I think I shot 41 percent in the regular season from three. For my career in the playoffs, I think I shot over

37 percent. Yeah, but that's not because of the pressure. No, no, no, but hold on. Oftentimes our opinion on things are shaped by our own experience. Is that fair? That's fair. You and I have had different experiences as basketball players. Let me hear your experience. So later on in my career, once, pretty much once I got to L.A. and was like a starter and third or fourth option on offense you get to the playoffs they treat you like a first option yeah for sure do you do you know what i mean by that like they've they've come up with a very specific game plan the same team for game one game two game three through game seven yeah they've come up with a specific game plan for you so utah jaz 2017 we are going to top lock him as soon as he

crosses half court i mean dr rivers said to me after game one he said this is not your series i need you just stand in the corner. Right? I had a terrible series. It's the worst series of my fuck. In my, in my like, playing career when I was like actually a player, not like a bench guy, but like, it was the worst series of my career. But he was like, you got to go stand in the corner. They're literally, we're playing four on four without you. I'm like, right, right. The closeouts. So if I do create separation, or if you do make a mistake in the kick, the closeouts are different in the playoffs. Yes. So my catch and shoot time to get a clean release, is different.

I'm not making excuses. I'm just telling you. It is the truth. What I experienced. So do you think because of that? By the 37% is not horrible. No, it's not good.

It's not good for me. I mean, for you, it's terrible. It's terrible. It's terrible. Yeah, it's terrible for you. It's terrible. I mean, for the average guy, they will fucking.

I'm embarrassed. They might get a max contract over that. For you, you should, yeah. But that's why I believe certain guys wants to post season start because they, been guarded a certain way for, what, September to mid-April, a certain way. You know, you have certain games that gets, you know, circled on the calendar.

Certain coaches get up for, certain players get up for it. But at the end of the day, you've been guarded a certain way. And then in the postseason, like you said, the close-outs are different. The preparation is different. And guys are, they're not allowing you to do what you do best because at the end of the day, if certain guys get off on a team, you're definitely going to lose. If I'm playing the clippers, you got, okay, you got to deal with Blake and his points in the paint and his rolls and his pocket passes from CP.

You got to deal with CP. You got to deal with Jamal coming off the bench and doing what he does off the bench. If we allow JJ to get five or six threes, the series is over. If you shoot, if you can five or, not, not, fuck making five or six threes. If JJ's shooting five or six threes, we're going to lose. The Spurr series in 15, I remember, dude, we come out game one, we're in L.A. We've got the three seed, they got the six seed, even though we had the same amount of wins. And Kauai's guarding me.

And I'm like What did I do to deserve this? Why are you going to me? And for, I don't remember, maybe the first four or five games in the season, he started on me, Danny started on CP. Then they switched that in game six. I think it was game,

I know game seven, Danny was on me. And at the end of the series, we win. And like, I didn't have a great series, but I had big moments in the series. You know, and at the end of the series, Chip England came up to me. He was like, man, our entire thing was like, we got to, we can't allow you to get off. See, I wasn't even part of that.

We threw the kitchen sink to you. Yeah, I wasn't even part of it. I've seen Pop in the Posties. I played against him multiple times in finals appearances. There was one time where, he caught a timeout with like 11 minutes and 52 seconds left in the first quarter. Because a guy on our team got off a three. Yeah. I don't even know if they made.

the damn three. But he called a time out right away. Got on Danny Green. What the fuck? Danny Green got on his ass, took him out, brought him back in. But obviously they had something in place and then they execute. Yeah. Two last things. Points I want to make on the playoff. Or one last point and then I want to actually get your perspective on something. I think what's different about the playoffs. So to your point about still winning a game but maybe an adjustment's made late in the game and you say we won the game

but they may have figured something out right? I think what's different is if you make that adjustment with six minutes to go in the third quarter and you come back still lose the game the next night you might be playing Memphis the next night you might be playing Oklahoma City

the next night you might be playing Portland right so you might have to wait two months right in the playoffs you make an adjustment, you feel like you can exploit something, it's the same damn team the next night or the day later. Yeah, yeah, you figure. And so that's where you see, like Dallas and 11,

you remember J.J. Barreya against the Lakers. It's like, oh, JJ and Dirk can pick and roll. They can't stop that. We're just going to exploit that over and over. What's your perspective on luck in the playoffs? Need it. Give me an example. The biggest example of like luck and the pulse in your experience?

Oh, in my experience? Uh, trying to think of my championship runs. I mean, I was on the team. That's the luck, right? I mean, I can't think off the top of my head. But no, no, seriously, like, you know, you could be a great team, but you need a little luck. team, but you need a little luck. You need the ball to bounce your way sometimes. You know, you need a certain player on the opposing team getting foul trouble. You know, it's just, I don't know. I mean, of the top of my head, I started to think of like, what, unfortunately, what happened

with the Kauai with the Zaza-Pachulia thing. You know, the Spurs was, they were good. They were fucking good. And they were handling the shit out of Golden State up into that point. I think they were maybe up, I can't, I don't know if the top of my head, we can all. I always look it up. They were up 17, you know, and they were very fucking good. And, you know, you get Kauai go down with the ankle, and it's like, oh, shit, the whole thing changes. You know, like, I don't know off the top of my head as far as, you know, my experience,

but luck, I want to say it's always you need, yes, you need it. You need some luck, for sure. You definitely do. I think it goes back to where we kind of started this with the one play, where a lucky bounce, an unlucky bounce, a call, a guy reacting to something, 2016. Yeah. An injury, right? A play, a moment, yeah, for sure.

And it's not, I think luck maybe is the wrong word. It's not, though. But it's like an inflection point almost of like someone gets hurt. That can change the trajectory, the trajectory of what's to come. I mean, you look at, what is it, the 01, Lakers Kings, I think that was game five or six maybe, and they get the tip out to Big Shot Bob. Yeah.

Like, I think Kobe, Kobe missed a floater over Doug Christie, I think. And then Shaq gets, and it gets a tip out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah, driving. Blodet did out, right to big, yeah, right to Robert Dordy. Like, if you clean glass on that, that's the game. Yeah. And it's like, how many times a ball gets batted right into one of the biggest clutch players

in the NBA history at the top of the key? And he just at the end of the game, bang, bang. Yeah, that's some luck. There's some luck to that. That's some luck to that. Complete transparency. We actually got up and sat back down because we had to say this.

Game six. I don't know how I forgot. Ray Allen's three. Yeah, I don't. The sequence of events here. Yeah. That led up to that. Yep.

I mean, the first thing that comes in mind is that, you know, Pop had took Timmy D out. Yeah. You know, and I think because, you know, they probably was looking to switch everything because we needed threes. We needed threes. So everything was going to be on the perimeter.

I had literally just made one three before that. And we ran one of our plays that we've been practicing all year where I would, you know, come and set the pick. Like, we just kind of like we grew up on a whiteboard. I would flare over the top and then come back. And I missed that one, and who knows if Timothy's on the floor, does he clean glass? He's clean glass a lot in his career. But Bosch is able to, you know, get the rebound over Manu.

Manu kind of falls down a little bit. He's kind of on the back, he cleans glass, and then Ray backpedals. He doesn't even look at the line. What if he steps on the line? Backpedaling. What if he steps on the baseline? What if his toes on the line? With his tools on the line.

There's a lot of preparation because I watch Ray do that every day like that, but I believe there's some luck to that too. The thing I always think about that play, and this is going to sound weird and it's going to make me look bad. It will, but I will take it. Manu was such a fucking psychotic competitor.

I think about him going for that rebound. If I was in that situation, And saw the ball bounce. And this is not revisionist history. I'm just being honest with you. And I'm guarding Ray Allen. I'm staying at home. But Manu is Manu.

He wanted to tip it out. He wanted to close the game out, win a championship. Like, I'm not knocking what he did. No, no, for sure. Yeah. And had he not fallen, it wouldn't even a matter. Right. But he's such a competitor.

He went for it and he fell. And that was all that Ray needed. That's all he needed. Wow. Yeah. Wow, wow, wow, wow. I'm soft. Thanks, man, do I get to sit behind the wine? No, we're going to move it. We're going to move it. That's a big sacrifice. I don't even, first guess on our show. First guess. I don't even know.

No, this is my guy, my coach Keith, damn bright, man. My high school coach really taught me a lot about how to prep for the game, how to play the game, and shit, I wouldn't be here in this seat right now, where I am in my career without him. That's for damn sure. That's for damn sure. He would say that he's going to say the same thing about vice versa, no. but like he literally like taught me

how to take the game serious like seriously like every day at practice how to prep how to prepare like you know me and maverick always talk about like our games were so easy because we practiced so fucking hard he was like this is going to be the hardest thing y'all do on this practice court

when we get into games it's going to be easy and as a player you don't really believe that shit when you're 14 15 years old you're like I'm fucking dying out here man what are you talking about the games are going to be easier like the competition these guys all these and he was absolutely right so i learned how to what i learned from him was how to really prepare for the games before the games ever ever took place what was lebron like when you

coached him you had him freshman and sophomore year i had him as freshman sophomore i met him i think when he was about 13 and a half maybe um he was one of the easiest guys i've ever coached and so i was a college coach prior to coaching him um and once i saw him i called some of my friends and i said you know i got a guy that i think's one of the best i've seen and they all kind of laughed at me and they say oh you you sound like a high school coach now you know how the high school coach always hikes guys up sometimes but just easy guy great teammate cared about you know playing as a team loved his teammates played hard but the biggest thing that jumps out at you, just his innate ability and his ability to learn.

Interesting. You used the word innate in the first episode. I thought you were full of shit. Glad somebody co-signed it. When you teach basketball, you just retired. Congratulations. Congratulations. Absolutely.

You got a hell of a hell of a career. You got a win in the tourney. Yes, sir. When you teach basketball, is there a difference in approach between teaching high school kids or college kids? That's a great question. So I had always been a college coach. So when I had that group, I treated him like college players.

And they actually had the brains of above that. And then once I knew LeBron was going to be a pro because I had had three NBA guys before him, then I started to treat him like he had to guard Kobe in four years. So that's really how I treated him. I treated him like a pro. That's interesting. Did you feel that?

Did you not know any different? No, no, no. I didn't know no difference. I mean, I'm just going out there and just like, I'm just bust my ass and this is a guy that's, he's the head coach, so whatever he says, let's do it. And like we all came together, like me and my high school boys, you know, we all came the same V for a reason,

and we wanted to win. We wanted to win a state championship, we wanted to win. You know, Maverick was doing, you know, recruiting before he was supposed to be doing it and shit, recruited me the same V. maybe. But yeah, I just wanted to win. So like, you know, it was times where you'd be pissed off at them because you're not used to it. You're not used to, you know, this type of, you know, this type of hard work is something different. You know, I remember I was telling you in episode

one how, how different it is going from, you know, just from grade school to middle school, you know, the intimidation factor of even just walking down the hallways. And then going from middle school to high school is even more intimidating. Now you're like being around kids with like beards and like people are driving to school like I'm a freshman in high school I don't drive my bike or one of the coaches picked me up whatever the case may be so you know it was super duper different in a sense of anything else I had been up to that point by playing the game of basketball how long did you coach total between high school and college well I had a little sabbatical so let me think about that so I was seven years of Duquesne 13 at um at at

at Akron as a head coach and then three other years as an assistant so close to 35 years how do you coach a player that can't remember after timeout plays coming out of a timeout coming out of a timeout you draw up a play and a player habitually forgets what he's supposed to do as a coach how do you coach that player that's funny because we were just talking about that last night I may have got some intel on that. So really what you do is you have an assistant coach that is assigned to that guy, and after you draw up the play, he redraws it up and then tells him again about it because there's nothing more frustrating as a coach and even as a player than somebody

butchering up plays when you draw it up for them. LeBron knows this. I coach my son's travel team. It's a fourth grade travel team, nine and ten-year-olds. And there's not a ton of, like, opportunities to call time. Like, I'll drop the first play. If we have the ball at half time, I'll drop it up. I think each team is allowed, like, three timeouts.

And, you know, if there's opportunities, I'll draw it up. We have the ball. Because a lot of times, if we score in another team, they call a timeout, chaos is going to ensue. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And to change the possession, right? So it's just like, but it's interesting because I have to deal with that. right and the one thing i've i've learned this season because my second year doing it is i tell

the kids not every kid but i tell the kids that need to hear this just watch what you're supposed to do that's a lot of stuff happening just watch what you're supposed to do that's good point it's really good i think the hardest the hardest thing and this is where i'm curious for both of you coaching it and having coaches do this atos are such a very specific thing and a big part of running an ATO correctly is timing. And so practicing ATOs, like, did you practice your ATOs? Did you have a list of certain plays that were ATOs that were outside of your normal sets or concepts? And have you had coaches that actually practiced ATOs?

So I know a lot of coaches do that, but I'm kind of a coach that plays off the feel of the game. So I'll usually run one of the sets that I think's going to go at that particular time. That way you're not as limited as to what you can run at a certain time. But obviously we've practiced all of those. And we probably spent more time this year, for instance, just on five on old, just making sure our guys knew every little aspect of it. And you make a great point. You can run a great set, but if you don't execute the screen or the cut

or understand how to bump a screen or go tight off of a screen, none of it really matters. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think what you were saying, Jay, I think there's a practice. Practicing some ATOs is very beneficial to certain teams. But also as a player, sometimes when a coach comes to the timeout and draw something that you haven't seen before, you kind of get like, oh shit, I ain't seen this one before. I'm going to execute this one to a T because if it works now,

we might can bring this back again. Like I want to like, you know, as a player, you feel good about that. Like, oh, I ain't know you had that one in your bad, coach. So like, yeah, you know, you have certain things that, you know, fourth quarter package, you know, you have a, you know, ATO, you have, you know, SOBs, B-O-Bs that you don't want to run throughout the course of the game. So, because if it's a closed game, you want to try to catch the defense, you know, sleep in or catch them off guard or whatever the case may be.

But in the conversation that we're having throughout the course of a game, you want to kind of have things that's in place that you've kind of practiced just so guys have some type of mental, you know, knowledge of, okay, this is what we worked on yesterday. This is what we worked on and shoot around. But it doesn't always happen like that because, you know, coaches and players, like, we want to, you want to do shit that you want to better make in-game adjustments that maybe you didn't have an opportunity to prepare for that earlier that morning. Or maybe it is a back-to-back and you didn't really have shoot-around. You didn't have an opportunity to, you know, really put in, you know, all the stuff that you may have wanted to put in if you had a practice day. So I think it's all situational.

Yeah. The reason that I bring it the timing thing is because there's certainly. Parts of after timeout plays when you cut, when you set the screen. Absolutely. A big part of ATOs is misdirection. Yeah, for sure. Right? And so when that misdirection is occurring, that's important.

Yeah, for sure. The other reason I ask is because, you know, Doc was great with this, and Brett Brown was great with this, is end of game need plays. Yeah. So we had need two plays, need three, need three plays. And we would have a package. would have a package. And by the way, that package would change throughout the season. Yep. So if we ran a play a couple times in a need three situation. And it didn't work or whatever. Yeah, or even if it did, we would have to, we'd have to disguise it. And then we'd have to practice that, right?

And you mentioned something really good. I think, you know, obviously we can't advance the ball in college. Yes. So I do think some of your sideouts can be plays that you run from a normal set so that guys can actually do the same thing. the ability to save plays for late in the game, too. Like, I always try to save three or four that I like to run late, that I haven't run the whole game. Or like you said, maybe put them in a closet for two or three weeks and then bring them back two or three weeks later. I like to do that as well.

Based on the guys that you have coached throughout your career, what are the skills that translate and transfer from high school to college, college, to the NBA? Well, I think, you know, there's a lot of, of guys that have talent, but there's a lot of guys that don't have a good enough brain to play in the NBA. You know, you have to understand the game. You have to understand, you know, what it takes to make the league. For instance, we had the Thomas twins who, who LeBron knows, who played for us at Eastern Michigan. One of nine twins have played in the NBA free agent.

Guys, Charles never averaged more than 11 points a game at college. But he had a skill set good enough to be able to play defense, be able to handle the ball enough, and shoot the three ball enough to play in the league. And I think a lot of guys think they have to score to play in the league, but you have to be able to guard to play in the league. You have to be a good role player because there's not many guys like LeBron. Most of the guys in the NBA, and you guys know way more than me, are role players. So you have to be really good at something.

Thanks. I think you were a little more than a role player. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. You got a clip that I sent your ass other day. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I actually, I would argue everybody's a role player. That's true.

His role is just to be the guy, right? Luca's role is to be the guy. That's his role. The, the connotation, there's a difference between definition and connotation, right? The connotation of a role player, most 19 and 20-year-olds don't want to hear that. Right. I'm going to be a role player in the league, right? And that, that to me, is a struggle.

And I, it's interesting you bring up the brain, because I think part of the brain And part of, curious to get your thoughts on this too, part of lasting in the NBA, skill set, talent, size, strength, all that stuff, super important. Basketball intelligence, super important. What about emotional intelligence? What about being able to be a part of a group,

be a part of a team, navigate locker room situations, navigate relationships with coaches, navigate relationships in the training room I think to some degree that's maybe not equally as important because you need all the stuff beforehand but to last in the NBA

you have to have a level of that I mean it goes back to the sand and I told you about one of my good friends Jimmy Iveen always talks about when the shit gets bigger than the cat you get rid of the fucking cat and what he's saying

And basically in basketball terms, there's a lot of players when they're at their peak of performance. But on the side that you're talking about, they haven't respected authority. They haven't come in and just wanted to be a part of the group. You know, but there was an average in 25, 30, or whatever the case may be, and they were the shit. When that stuff starts to dwindle,

and the shit is not as good as the, the individual anymore, they get rid of the cat. And we see it in our sport. You see it in sports in general. You know, you have to play the game to play the game as well. And at the end of the day, being a good person shouldn't have to just be dedicated to just sports. That's fucking life.

Yeah. It's being a good fucking person. Hey, how you doing? Good morning. Okay. Am I having a bad day? Okay, I might be having a bad day. All right. Yo, you all right?

Like, shit, like just normal shit. Like if I'm walking to a door And a woman is beside me No matter if she's a stranger or not She's an older woman or younger Like hold the fucking door open for I don't understand Why is that such a like

That should be easy That should be easy But it's not Not everybody does it I had I had vets my rookie year That were like dude You're coming into the practice facility When you walk in a room

Say hi to everybody Acknowledge people right i was in my shit i wasn't playing you know i was right upset you have to take that into a no no no but at the end of the day there 22 like i was young but like yeah i think i think that helps you you you last longer in a department that you want to be a part of because you just played a game a little bit i'm no one's telling you to be fake no no it's not it's not that it's not being fake it's just being human like yeah be a fucking human being and no matter what else whatever you do that's a fine line between being in the league and not being in the league

league, right? So when you go 12 to 15 or whatever, right, the coach doesn't really want to be around somebody that's not a good person. Because there's somebody probably just as good as you or close to as good as you that you can play with that probably aren't going to play anyway, right, at that point. There's a lot of guys I know that I'm friends with that had nine or 10 year careers that never played more than 10, 11 minutes in a game, never were really an 82 game regular rotation player, but they were great fucking dudes. And they lasted nine or ten years and maximize their career because of this very thing we're talking about. And if you get that 10th year, you get that pension.

You get that pension, you get that health care. You get that. Lifetime. The influence of the game in the NBA, European basketball, on the college game. We maybe had talked about this, and we haven't really dove into this. It feels like at times when I watch college, there's a big difference between coaches who have embraced what I would call modern basketball concepts versus what I would call antiquated basketball concepts. Where is college basketball right now with being influenced by either the NBA or EuroLeague or, you know, world FIBA competitions? just in terms of X&O strategy.

So clearly, in my mind, the NBA has been influenced by the European basketball. And I feel like college basketball is two to three years behind the NBA. And the reason I say that is, for instance, when people started ice in the ball screens, that took two years before it hit college basketball. And then everybody, to offset the ice, they started going to the elbow handoffs, right, the dribble handoffs. and that took another two years before it hit college basketball. So the last thing probably that occurs is the isos

and finding the elephant in the room, I call it. You know, the guy that can't really are. Like LeBron was talking about pointing it, we're going at him. That's probably the last thing. And the one thing is different is there's not as many great players in college basketball as there is in the NBA. So it's never going to look exactly the same.

But I think the NBA has clearly been ahead of college basketball and will remain to be the driving force of college basketball. It takes coaches a long time to adjust. Probably when you played some, there were still some motion offense. You don't see hardly any of that anymore. We used to cover down screens, back screens, low crosses. Now what we do is we cover ball screens and dribble handoffs and split screens, like you were talking about.

That's all we cover. NC State was the only team in my four years in college, and that was later on after Herb Sendeck had left, I believe, that iced a pick and roll. Boston College still ran flex when they joined the ACC. Your boy, Duds. Your boy Duds. They literally just ran the flex offense. Al Skinner, right?

And that's all they ran. So, yeah, I get the difference between, or the, I should say, being behind on things. The one thing I have noticed particularly this spring and March Madness. is there are some really good coaches that are being creative with non-shooting players, non-spacing players. So the difference, of course, between the NBA and Feeba in college is that you can be in the paint, right? And there are certain players, it's not like the NBA. The NBA is the best of the best.

Great college team might have two or three NBA guys. Of those two or three guys, maybe one guy has a 10-year career, right? That's just the reality. So there's going to be players on the floor that you don't have to guard. And Yukon does this with Danny Hurley. I saw the Baylor women's team do this at the end of a game on a need three situation.

Is you use the non-shooter in the corner. You put the shooter either on the block or on the same side wing, skip pass, either uphill DHO. or a DHO to the guy in the person on the block. And Baylor used it to get a game-tying three to send it in overtime. Yeah, because then his man can't really help on those hands. So far away from them.

So far away. You have to, I think that's one thing. And I think the other thing is using your shooters as screeners more, you know, both on the ball and off the ball. Back screen, you know, into a down screen or back screen into a ball screen. Just trying to get your shooter involved. But your idea is a really good one because they're always late. You were talking about being late to the. The handoff and the ball screen, the overreaction.

That's a good, good point. When Yukon runs that play with their big guy, there's constant overreaction. They get slips. Yeah, for sure. I mean, you saw it last year. I mean, obviously they're doing it again this year, but Jordan Hawkins got so much action. Yeah. Last year over that because they had a non-shooting big out there.

Obviously, Jordan Hawkins is being body-to-body, but X-4 or X-5 does guard the non-shooter, he can't get back up the floor. I just want to draw one play. I just want to draw one play. They're not used to being out there either. Right. I'm sorry, I got to draw it off the water. Because I'm like, I'm like, especially in college where these people guarding non-shooters are literally standing. I mean, I saw, I'll hate to bring it up, but Illinois went 55 real minutes without scoring a point versus Yukon.

UVA had 14 in the first half. It went like, I don't know, close to an hour, 43 minutes without scoring an actual point. Yeah, it was insane. Cheers, Coach. Cheers, cheers. Good seeing. So, like, if a team is top locking a shooter over here, let's say this is fluff. Yep.

This is like the four man going to screen. You've got your five over here. This guy's pulled all the way. This is where the ball is. This comes. This is what I'm talking about. You set this up with the away screen. This defender jumps into a top lock.

This guy is just sitting in the paint. You skip past it to the corner. Here's the uphill D. Now this guy's going to be late. This guy's out of position because he thinks this is coming. There are ways to get around the spacing issues in the house. And the same thing he was saying, if I'm being top locked, right, and the big comes since the pick and roll, or sets of the wide pin,

if I'm the guy that's being top like, I'm the shooter, I can go underneath, snake it, and set the ball screen on the ball handler. Now my guy's top lock, he can't switch, he can't help. Now the ball handler comes off naked. Yeah. Because my guy's only worried about me coming off to get a shot. I used to do that with Joel. Yeah.

Remember our elbow, too, actually? Yeah, absolutely. Left elbow. I'm in left corner. And a lot of teams would top lock it. Yeah. And I would literally just walk my guy up into Joel's man. You screen two guys at once.

Joel would spin and you get a lap. Yeah, you get two guys at once. That's great stuff. Coach, before we let you go, and thanks for being our first guest. Thanks for having me. I got a question for you. And I'll ask LeBron this in. two or seven years. We're not really sure. What are you going to miss the most about the game

of basketball and about being around it every day? I just think the effect you have on people, you know, I think one of the things that I always tried to teach LeBron was you're going to hit some rough moments, but you've got to battle through. I think that's the biggest thing is these these young people need advice as to how to handle adversity. Because what happens a lot of times is they get bailed out of adversity now. Nobody really teaches them what to do when they hit it. Because we've all been there, right? We've all been in some tough situations.

Just when you think things are going great, something happens. And if you don't know how to handle it, it's really difficult. No, that's good. All right, cheers, guys. Cheers. Coach, appreciate it. Thank you. Appreciate you.

Cheers. We're good. He's high. Because he's so high. Single side and high. Single side and high. He's so high. And you put the one.

here because if the one or the two decides to help on a lot, they're too small. Hey guys, thanks for listening. Thanks for watching Mind the Game podcast. If you like it, please hit that subscribe button. Thank you. Hello, I'm Dax Shepard. And I'm Monica Padman. And we love talking to people. Every Monday and Wednesday, we sit down with actors, authors, scientists, really anyone interesting, and have real honest conversations about life, success, failure, and everything in between.

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