Mind the Game - What Have We Learned About the 2025 NBA Playoffs?

Episode Date: May 27, 2025

The Conference Finals are in full swing and we are starting to learn a lot from these 2025 NBA Playoff trends. In this episode of Mind the Game with LeBron James and Steve Nash, the guys dive into these trends such as, the importance of role players like Alex Caruso and Aaron Nesmith. They also talk through the crazy 20+ point swings we’ve been seeing in these playoffs and the success of the underdogs. LeBron also discusses the physicality of these playoffs and shares his thoughts about Anthony Edwards shoving him in the chest. Finally, LeBron recalls Game 6 of the 2013 NBA Finals and what got his so angry that he knew they were going to win that game. Shoutout Ray Allen!Subscribe to and follow Mind the Game today on YouTube or whoever you get your podcasts!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

All right, mind the game episode, who knows. Yeah, who knows when? By the way, that's a good thing. We don't know, just shoot us. We don't know, we're just going. We just go, that's a good thing. I think we're all good, is everybody all set? Sounds good.

Okay, please interrupt me if anything comes up. You're saying all phones on you not to stir. Except me and Steve's. Yeah, right. Me and Steve's phone was out. As we buzz in the old. Yeah. Welcome back to Mind the Game, brought to you by Uninterrupted and Wondry.

In this episode, we're going to talk about the playoffs and what trends we're noticing. So three big ones that jumped out were the physicality and refereeing, the pick-on game, and also zone defenses, junk defenses, how teams are trying to slow others down and give them a second look. We also weighed into the history of momentum and some playoff experiences between both LeBron and I, and in particular, LeBron's comeback with the Cleveland Cavaliers versus the Golden State Warriors from a 3-1 deficit, a historic final series,

and some incredible storytelling. So thanks for joining. Hope you enjoy. Please like, comment, and subscribe. I thought it would be good to just kind of take a peek at what we're seeing in the playoffs, like big picture. Big picture, you know, instead of going through every series, we'll touch on them through this prism. So for me, like three things I want to discuss, and we take our time on each of them is the physicality and refereeing, how that changes in the playoffs. Yeah.

And it makes a big difference. Pick on game. So how that leads to adjustments, cat and mouths, matchups, spacing, zone. And then the last one is zone. So how these are linked, how they playoff. apart in each other. We're seeing more zone, but we're also seeing more men that looks like zone. Yeah, for sure. You know, um, so let's start with the physicality. I mean, one thing is like the playoffs are always going to be more physical, but I think they're generally the last

10, 15 years, it's a big contrast in regular season of the playoffs. Yeah, the first thing I want to say to that is like, if they're going to allow it to be as physical it is, you got to give us a little time to prepare for it. So like post all-star break. Yeah, I mean, post all-star break is usually like 30 games left. So maybe like, maybe 12 to 15 games left in a regular season. Okay, like a month. It was a month to prepare for it because it's, it goes from zero to a hundred. It goes from us to be able to body check.

You know, no body check, no hand checking, no pushing a guy off their spot, no, no rerouting guys at all. Right. for eight, nine months, or for six, six and a half, seven months, and then two months straight, have at it. Have at it. Like straight up, just no holds barred. And, you know, it's fun. Yeah, I don't think either of us have a problem with it.

Yeah, we'll have a problem with it. It's just a contrast. It's just a contrast, you know, of not being able to get into that flow. So, yeah, it's definitely over the last, like you know, like you said, 10, 15 years of game, they've allowed us to do it. Yeah. And it's fun. I personally wish we could do it all year, but also have the body makeup for it to do it all year too.

So it wouldn't be beneficial to the product that do, you know, run a marathon, I mean, run a sprint during a marathon, you know. That's a great question. That almost draws me out of the discussion. Like where are we as a game, right? Like we're playing faster, pace and space. And a part of that is because in the regular season and in the playoffs too, you know, it is beneficial to play quicker to spread the floor. But it is a big contrast, you know. And I think sometimes people will say, well, the numbers, numerically, the playoffs aren't that much different than the regular season.

But I think when you're out there on the floor, it's different. Yeah, when you're out there on the floor is different. It feels different. You know it's different. You know, the things that you're able to get away with, you can't get away with once the postseason start. And like I said, I love it. It comes down to just making basketball plays. You know, it's not much foul bait.

is not much, you know, trying to trick the referees. It's just like, how can we execute, get a bucket, get a stop on the other end? And that's the true essence of the game. Another way the true essence of basketball is to adjust. Yeah. Right? Adapt, adjust. But I think that is one thing that's good about

is it takes the foul baiting out of the game. You know, you're less likely to get head snap foul. You're less likely to get, you know, some of these calls that people bait the referees into, they're kind of like get up and play right right i like that yeah i like it too um but i do think i i don't necessarily want to see the whole regular season we played like that no as well i mean our fans already are you know complaining about things and i i would i would agree with that i would not want to see the two-month you know way we officiate the game or allow us to play the

game for from you know from october to mid- april right i don't think that would be And I mean it all plays into the way the game is played, right? It all plays into the way the game played. But what's been cool about it is also to see like, you know, like Jalen Brunson and Kat get stops or be more reliable at the end of game two in Boston, right? Because they're more physical. They're allowed to get away with a little more. The regular season right away, foul.

They're either in the bonus or take it on the side. Allowing them to bump, use the physicality, things like that. So it goes both ways a little bit, right? Like, you know, in the regular season, you bring up the non-defender, quote, unquote, and they can't touch, they can't bump, they can't foul. Now they're allowing to let them play a little bit. So it's actually made, I think, a more competitive game. Yeah, absolutely. In many ways.

Absolutely. I mean, listen, you take the seating out. You take the seating in a regular season. You completely take it out, you know, and you have two teams that's going on. Obviously, you know, round one is always challenging for the eighth seed or the lower seed or whatever the case may be. unless you have that team that it doesn't matter if it's regular season or postseason. And if I'm more physical and I have the athleticism, if I have the players that can go down and make things happen,

you know, the seating doesn't. Right. Well, it gives the lower seat in it a way to kind of... Junk it up a little. Yeah, take the gap between the two teams out. Yeah, for sure, for sure. I mean, we're seeing it now where Indiana is able to close the gap, you know. You can close the gap.

They're smashing the gap. right now. You know, they're smashing the gap. You're right. They're smashing the gap right now, you know, being up, you know, what they are in the series. You know, that is a byproduct of that for sure. Yeah. And then I guess, you know, I think it goes back to our conversation around offense. And, you know, when teams are allowed to play that physical, you know, that's another reason why we don't run a lot of actions, right? Because you just can't run the actions with a fluidity that creates advantages. And now you're late in the shot clock. Late in the shot clock. You shoot back, you know, you got to, you're getting to money,

or whatever your call is or casting up shots that's not going to be beneficial to you. Which leads a lot to the pick on game, right? It's simple. Let's get to our spots. Let's get space.

Let's try to bring up the weakest defender. Let's try to ISO here. Instead of, you know, the nightmare scenario, which we see guys have to do because the defense is so physical, is fight for 15 seconds to try to get that best defender off your best creator.

Can't get him off. Right? And then he goes ISO anyways. So he's been battling for 20 seconds just to get an ISO. that he could have got in the first or second. Yeah, and here comes up. And step back mid-range too.

And that's a big difference for me, right? And that's a big difference from regular season and postseason. You know, I think you're gonna get called a lot more fighting through these screens, getting up into people. So you do get the matchup you want a lot more in the regular season than in the playoffs. That's why I think it's fun to see

because people are now competing on a different level. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. You know, it's something to, there's an end game. You know, there's something to really like, you know, obviously you're building up habits, you're building up everything throughout the regular season. And in order to be a great team, you have to build those things up throughout the course. And I'm never, ever going to sit here and say that the regular season doesn't matter because it absolutely freaking does.

Like you have to build out those habits throughout the course of the season. But from a viewership standpoint and from a competitive standpoint, to be able to get to the postseason and be able just to have that, you know, this is time. Right. You know, this is time. Like, this is the sprint. You know, there's the 100 meter yard dash, and we get into it right now. You know, so it's definitely, these games have been amazing.

Like you said, you know, to have, you know, three teams at one point, you know, win the road, all road games in the postseason. You had New York, you had Indiana, and. Denver beat O.C. Golden State. Golden State. With Steph getting hurt, still. You know, it was just, it's just great basketball right now. Yeah. I mean, the physicality is one thing. The three-point variance, you know, there's some numbers around, like, I think so far this playoffs, if a team took one more three than the other team, they're like 12 and 9 winning. So I know it's a small sample.

That's still great. And then there's another one that, like I think from 2022 till today, you know, the team that makes one more three has like a 60% winning record or something. So the three-point variance has changed what home court advantage means. So when you add some of these things like three-quart variance, refereeing, physicality, the game really changes. And it does. It comes down to like we're always making micro adjustments. You're trying to give yourself a slight advantage. Such a big part of just competitive nature.

That's why you see Boston go 12 for 50. Right. And game two. Die by the sword. Okay, we're going to do the same thing in game three in New York. And then they end up, I think, hitting like nine or ten threes in the first half. You know, and just break open that game. You know, it's just, they're going to live by it and die by it for sure.

Yeah, and these comebacks, I mean, we've already seen Indy have them. We've seen, obviously, the Knicks have them. So it's not just the road team winning. It's the nature they're winning. You're never out of a game. The three-point, the three-point barrage that has gotten to the point in our game, you're never out of a game. You know, you got to get to being up 30,

It's not, you got to get to 35, 40. Right, right. You know, because if you're up 30 at halftime and... I'd say like mid-20s. You got to get 26, or it's still on the table. I think mid-30s, man. Maybe. If I'm up 26 at halftime and we get a quick, boom, boom, boom.

At the half, yeah, it's back to 17. Oh, 26, mid-third. There you go. Yeah, yeah, I feel pretty good. Yeah, I feel pretty good. I mean, that's, I still think that's great. Right, that's great. Like, the game, because, you know, we have seen, like, we've seen some amazing games.

you've seen just all out wars out there and then you see games where they're blowouts and then we've seen a lot of blowouts they get real back in and now you're playing that momentum game how do you feel about like hot hand momentum you know analytics people they don't really believe in momentum right they don't believe

in hot hand there's like every shot has the same value yeah I disagree me and the analytics department we're not like great friends you know well one reason well one here like well one reason in their defense is that they're basing their whole career

on empirical data. No, for sure. I get it. This is what they do. But on the court, you feel it. The crowd feels it. There's a feeling on the court that there's nobody that's not

on the court could ever understand. You know, and there's momentum plays and momentum shots that does not show up in the analytic data. You know, there's certain, you know, you're able to, it's a certain,

the Anthony Edwards dunk last game over Kavan Looney is just a different momentum play. You know, in game one, the Draymond threes that he was making in game one in Minnesota is a different momentum shot.

For sure. Then if somebody else made it. If Quentin Post made the shot, you know, okay. But it's certain passes. There's certain, you know, the way you take a charge, the way you, the extra

the hockey assists which doesn't show up in analytics hockey assists doesn't they don't tracking those and maybe they are but it's just a certain feel that the ball the court the crowd the energy you out there

you know oh shit that was a momentum play and if we get one more on there I started thinking about what was the game NBA jam when you catch fire

he's on fire boom Boom, boom, boom. You start seeing that happen. The game, you see it changing right in front of your eyes. And sometimes you don't even feel as a card player and someone who plays, you know, gambles a little bit. Sometimes you don't see the table turn. And hopefully you're on the other side when you're able to see it.

You don't want to be the last one to find out. You do not want to be the last one to find out when the table is turned. And those are things that just don't show up in analytic data. Yeah, I mean, analytics is. great I value and I know you value your part it's it's important but it's meant to be cold yeah right but we're human beings right it doesn't it doesn't account for chemistry it doesn't necessarily account for like a match five guys on the floor all the time and you know all the different things that are between the numbers so I

think it's great but it's always going to be just a part of the puzzle yeah absolutely so I think that I think momentum for me is always something that as a player you can feel you can ride and you also are trying to obviously prevent and you also have to I mean, shit, you have to have the right personnel to fit the data too. I understand that, you know, more threes, you know, layups, all that stuff.

But, you know, there's certain coaches and certain, you know, rosters that doesn't always fit the criteria and but they're trying to meet it because they've hired this department. Sure. And you go out there and it's times where I'll be on the floor

and I'm, there's teams that's out there doing certain things or certain guys that's out there that's doing things that I know doesn't benefit his game. You know, so is there a line where it's like, it's not benefit to where he is today,

but this is what he has to do because that's what they're telling him to do. And now this individual's not looking as good as he should look. Yeah. That's, I think, a part of teams that aren't quite there yet. There it is. You know, because their analytics informs

your scouting, you know, it informs your player development. You're trying to create a profile of player that fits into a profile of the system of playing. You know, another way that I think momentum is interesting is in the pre-event defense. So the Boston example,

you know, maybe it's not the right word, but they're up 20, and now they're playing not to lose. Yeah, we're going to file. And the other team is, we got nothing to lose. We already lost this game, so they're coming at you with everything they have and things flip fast, right? Yeah, I mean, I was watching game three, obviously, in the garden,

and Boston was, you know, dominating that game. I think they were up 25, maybe, 28 in the third quarter. Mitchell Robinson's on the court. Right. They just started following them. Fow them. Yeah. They just started following them.

Put them to the line. We're not going to give you any momentum. Can't make threes. We're not going to allow Jalen Brunson to catch a little rhythm. Because you know, and we all know, you lose one game. Okay, that's one game. You lose by 50. You lose by one.

Right. It still hurts. But the one thing from one game to the next game that can happen is a guy can build some momentum. He sees the ball goes in. Yeah. It changes everything. It changes everything. Now he's feeling good about his shot, that he maybe wasn't feeling good up into that point.

You know? And just like you said, on the contrary, when you're getting your ass whooped, you're just trying to, you're doing anything to try to get back into it. You know, so, you know, Boston, they do a good job of like, either, you know, up 28 or shit, if I'm up six, they're... Not afraid to junk it up too. Yeah, to junk it up too. On the winning stuff. They always keep in the head to the pedal to the ground. This episode is sponsored in part by American Express.

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on eligible purchases at U.S. Resi Restaurants. Enrollment required. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms apply. Learn more at Americanexpress.com slash with Amex. I think it's been interesting to see so much zone in the playoffs or the hybrid

man zone. So I played for Del Harris back in the day who I believe wrote a book about defense. Really? He was Nellie's assistant when I was in Dallas. And I always loved our chats. And one of the things he said to me was that the best man. men to men defenses feel like a zone, and the best zones feel like a man-to-man.

I think that's never been truer than right now. You know, whether it's the three-two we've seen Cleveland play. Yeah, put Moby at the top. Or some of the other zones we've seen coming here. Or just these hybrid man zones where like I feel at times Denver's just putting a floater towards the middle of the floor

so Shay doesn't have space. You know things like you guys. Yeah, we were doing, yeah. You guys were zoning. Bringing guys out of the corner. You still have your matchup. You say, go ahead and throw it. We'll be high hands or make you throw up.

We'll stun and get back. You know, we're seeing so much more of that. Miami's notorious all year-round. Spoke was always, and he's damn good with his zone. Changing. And I think that's a great point because I think I see Zone becoming a part of it. It's a little bit like, you know, we're playing pick-on. Now we're getting to spacing.

What's our spacing package? Then teams got really clever about the spacing, so we start cutting. Yeah. Now you're seeing teams cutting from the baseline or cutting from the slop, whatever it may be. So I think, you know, the next iteration may be not. just throwing in some zone or some man zone hybrid but also multiple zones right so for example if we're playing a three two out high to take it out of the initiator's hand well what would they put the initiator in the corner against zone right now he's thrown on the top and he's attacking you know the

center who's got to run out to the corner so I think then they're going to have I think we're going to start seeing teams evolve and play multiple zones or two looks yeah what's your thoughts on this whole zone man because I think it's definitely become a bigger part of what we're doing whether it's just the pack the paint teams that look like zone in the gap sharing in the floor or they're actually playing zone. Well, I mean, the whole nuance and the whole mind behind playing zone

early on was to just break the rhythm. Okay, this is an offensive team. They're in too great of a rhythm versus a man. We're trying everything we can do as far as picking roll coverage, ISO coverage, all these coverages, and they just have a rhythm. So the best thing to do, okay,

just drop it to a zone, break the rhythm. You can get them out of this action, maybe get them out of this action. Or just, it's not even about to action. When you come down and you see a zone, the mind now, you're starting to like... Think instead of move. Think instead of move. It doesn't become, it doesn't become, instead of just going and reacting to whatever happens, now it becomes a thinking game. And we know that all five guys on the floor, being the thinking game is not suitable for that. You know, so I think it's a great, I think it's a great piece to have in your package to be able to go to something

where you can just change the momentum, change the landscape of what it looks like, you know, out on the floor. And that could be, like you said, a 3-2. You know, you look at Cleveland having a defensive player of the year, Mobley, who was voted this year, at the top of the key.

Seven foot. He could come with that long wingspan to be able to change that. You know, Miami does that sometimes with bam at the top. You know, I think it just changes the landscape of teams. And, you know, it's great.

Or just having a roamer, like you said. You know, you have Denver being able to just, you know, Shea brings in a lot of picking rolls and wants to get, you know, maybe Christian Braun off of him or Russ off of him or whatever the case may be. But then those guys roll out and Russ or Chris just stay right there.

Stand in the middle floor. Just stand in the middle of the floor and I'm talking to you. Send him right. Or I'm on the other side. Send him left. Send him left. I'm right here. You know, and I just think it's it's really chess. Yeah. Especially right now. I know your sets. You know my sets.

I know your personnel. You know my personnel. I know what you like to do, the cons, the pros, I know if you heavy going right, I know if you heavy going left. I know if you come to a two-foot jumpstop in the lane, which way you like to pivot. You know, I know if you drive baseline, how you like, all of that stuff

when it comes to guys like myself, when it comes to guys like yourself, everything is dialed in. So I think coaches with the zone is just trying to make you just come down to court and just be like, and that's all you need it's all you need

conversely like I think it's trending a little more like we're going to see more zones or see more like that hybrid zone but it's got I think we're going to see more of it I think we're seeing more variance in it but I don't think we're going to see someone play zone

like always play zone because back to your initial point we get too comfortable people understand it they figure it out it's over but do you think there's going to be more zone looks more different zones multiple zones from teams listen what's the one thing we talked about earlier in this conversation our league is a copycat league right right and and if a team is if a team that is historically

not good in man-to-man defense then it's something that will be introduced I think it more teams are practicing it even if I can say that I believe more teams are practicing it even if they never show it in a game Thinking about it. But they're thinking about it. You know, and I would say that I could see it happening more, you know, over the next few years. You know, more teams coming out and, you know, like, you play Miami. They will literally start the game and fall into a zone.

Just make you think. You know, and they're just making you think. And they're very active in their zone. They have great principles. You can tell they work on it. They're basically, but more importantly, they're just trying to make you think. You know, instead of just read and reacting, they want you to think about what you want to do. who you put guys in right positions and places.

Because it's led to this in a way because switching defense essentially is not far from a zone. Right, it's not. We're going to switch everything in a zone anyways. So once you start switching and teams get kind of, you know, one-dimensional, we're just bringing up the weakest defender

and you're switching that, and then what? Okay, now, okay, they got the matchup they want, but guess what? Right. You know, we're going to zone this up. Yeah, you still have to dribble drive. You still have to punch the gaps. Flood.

You have to flood. It's a zone. It's a zone. You know. Peyton is a zone, just in the low post. You know, all those type of things is still a zone. And I think more teams will definitely, why not? Right, exactly.

Why not? There's no reason for you not to have that in your package, especially the game comes to win and losing. You know? It's one of those things like offense, like, you know, we run this play, let's run it to death if it's working, right? The zone, but at minimum, it's a change-up, like you said. So I think there's going to be more risk-taking

because at minimum you can get out of it and you've tried to throw something in their mind and make them think. Maximum you found something. Yeah. But I think now teams are going to try different things, different zones, different looks because we've already trended that way,

I think, in so many different, because you've got to fit to your personnel. Yeah. You've got to fit to your matchups too. Yeah. Yeah. I remember seeing Spoe in the bubble play some zones where he hid the weakest

to the smallest defenders in the corners. He forced, he had two athletes up top, and he forced the ball into the middle and bam's kind of sitting in the middle, like just under the nail. Like just making up random stuff where now you're controlling. You're not reacting.

You're controlling. I think, I mean, obviously he's been great at innovating and doing different things, but I think those types of things where you say, hey, look, we can't do nothing with this, but we could force them to play this way. Yeah, we can control that.

Right, and control this. So I'm interested to see how much more that we see in these playoffs. Yeah, me too. But it's also fun to see teams take risks because the lead, not just the initiators are so great, but also teams are so used to playing that way. Now you make him get rid of it early to someone.

Now do I play, or do I wait and try to get it back to him? Or do I say, you stop teams in their tracks a little bit or just throwing off their rhythms. It's been really effective. There were some moments, I think it was Aunt that was just shoving you in the first round series. It's interesting, right, because we love physicality. where's the line sometimes and where that's the one part that is difficult to understand certain matchups also it's difficult to referee people like you yeah nicola is you're so physical that sometimes like i can handle it yeah how do you mean if if that's how we're going to play and that's how we're going to allow it to be played then i i i don't mind it now it needs to be that on both ends right right you know it needs to be that on both hands you know it needs to be that on both hands

it was never explained to me like I'm trying to run down the court and is giving me like the two hand I'm beyond five yards if this is the NFL that would that would even it would still be a penalty I was beyond five yards in my route running

but it was fun it was competitive you definitely wondering like okay to your point like okay is this what line are we crossing or is there not a line at all you know because then you go through the lane

and a guy does like this and you do it like this and it but we're in the open court at half court and he's doing like this or anybody you know doing that and they don't call it so it's like where's the line you know being drawn but

yeah the physicality I mean that's what we we preached on that like it's different you know you're not getting away with that at all it's zero percent chance you're getting away with any of that in the regular season and the playoffs There's a possible chance you can.

And let's try and see what happens. Let's try and see what happens. You know, and, you know, the same could go for you when, you know, I'm thinking like, was there anybody for you, like, when the postseason started, you knew, you know, oh, shit, there's going to be a totally different feeling than the regular season. As you know, they're always going to try to get more physical and try to create an advantage, right? I remember, like, sometimes when you're talking about, like, the line and not knowing where it is. And, like, you just got to, you got to ride it.

You can't get frustrated. I remember, like, Bruce Bowen, like, me and me in the balls. out by center like what the reps are like play right you know that's kind of stuff like that you're like what's the line or like you got the ball out of center and you're just whacking your hand you're off arm just literally whacking it and the refs are like play like it's not affecting you right now and it's like okay but what does that lead to right so i think sometimes like i respect it like get away with what you can get away with and you know and trying to you know slow you down throw you off maybe just frustrate you whatever it is go like i love that um you know people trying

to play the game, give themselves an advantage to win. But it is funny in the playoffs. Sometimes, like, you're like, in what world? Right, right. Is that a legal basketball? Yeah, right. Like, you know, and then on the other hand, you know, I think it frustrates me sometimes, like,

how we want to micro-investigate scenarios. And maybe it's because it's Draymond. Right. But sometimes, like, there was a play where, you know, I can't remember who it was, but, like, he went over top of someone on the floor in Houston. I can't remember who it was. but it was, and his foot dragged and kind of caught him, you know, on the neck or something

on the way down. And it's like, look, I know people can make the argument that Traymond knows what he's doing. But on the other hand, I'm also like, it didn't hurt. Like, let's get up. Let's take the ball out of bounds. Let's play ball. Instead of, like, you know, forensically, like, looking at the Zepruder film and trying to figure out who's. It goes back to the, I don't know, I know this is kind of off topic, but there was a piece of camera work

in the postseason of our game in Minnesota that have never seen in my fucking life. I didn't know that existed. You're talking about the eye in the sky. When I'm the stripple ant, I've never seen that computer work in my life.

I would love to know if they took all the usual cameras, which I'm sure there's like 20, and could find the foul. Where the fuck did that camera come from? I've never seen it. Also, it didn't look like it was in HD. It was like a, It was like a

2006 GoPro camera like I was like what the fuck is this Right Oh my goodness That was interesting

But like that's the one part I get it's difficult But like some of this like Forensic deep dive Stuff like Like the example The other night with Matherin Now I you know

He punched him I guess But like I didn't I didn't look Maybe it was a close fist But he didn't swing Yeah but who knows if it was like You know Like a little jet

You know like Well, that mean Lance Stevenson should have been kicked out of every game that we played in in the 2011-12 playoffs. Right, right. Like, I mean, you know, like, there's a thing, it's like kind of... I love you born ready, by the way. It's kind of... You were out of your mind. But it's kind of like, you know, semantics.

Like, he literally went like this. Right. And we were like, that's it. He's kicked out of the game. Whereas someone could, like, line someone up and throw a shoulder through them from, you know, as fast as they can from 10 yards away. And it's like, oh, but that's more of a basketball move. And it's like, you know what I mean? Like, we just take it out.

Let's keep playing, right? And I know there's a thing about escalating, but I think it almost makes things escalate more because now it's personal. We're talking about it. We've micromanaged a situation. So sometimes I get a little bit frustrated. We let stuff go in the flow of a game,

and then it's like this one little weird thing happens and it's like, we've got to get this right and the whole world disagrees. And now we're talking about something that did not need to be a thing. And that's when they start. Otherwise, I don't know. This is...

Like, take it out on the side. Let's keep playing. You know what I love more than the perfect assist? The Perfect Story. And I've got just the one for you. Audible knows that there's no greater thrill out there than yours and Audibles, gripping new original that'll have you right on the edge of your seat. John Hamm stars as Jack Bergen in The Big Fix, a Jack Bergen mystery.

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to win the series. So that was an example of momentum completely flipping. You know, fortunately in the NBA, it's hard to win four in a row, especially if you're a team that is good enough to win three in a row. But that feeling of the other team

now having belief, confidence, you go from, like, beating him three in a row and thinking this is a matter of time, they might get one to all of a sudden they get one they get two now your backs are like against the wall they get three and they're feeling like they're going to do this they're going to be the first team to ever do this and the power that they feel is really what creates the momentum

and conversely as a team that's under that avalanche you're trying to pick the pieces up like hold on let's grab onto some solid footing here let's reset let's find our identity again and keep things simple and try to go out and win a basketball game because we haven't been able to do it for a week so I do think those experiences show that like on the floor momentum is a real thing

you've had a famous 3-1 comeback we came back down 3-1 with the Suns against the Lakers which was a wild series but like give me your take that was gotta be the most famous 3-1 you know it's funny like before we went to get to the

2016 3-1 comeback like in 2015 in the finals when when Kyrie and Kevin was hurt, we went up to 1 in that series in the finals. And, you know, the momentum of, like, feeling that feeling of being up 2-1 and two games away from winning the championship was like, oh, shit.

I don't know what that's like. We can do this. Like, you had that film. Like, we can do this. And then we lose three straight. Yeah. You know, and in game four, Or you, you, you, they, this is when, this is when Drayman started at the five and Eagadala started at the four.

And it changed the whole landscape. Yeah. Of the game, you started, they play with more pace, more speed. You know, they tied up two, two. And like the momentum, you could, we didn't have the ability to kind of change what we wanted to do. And they did. Mm-hmm. They had, they had something in their back pocket that we didn't know that existed.

Did you ever go to the five defensively in that series? I don't think in 2015 I did. I would have to go back and look but I don't think they caught us off guard and rode that wave. And remind me, did Kevin and Kai start the series? Kyrie was out. Kyrie got hurt game one

in overtime. And Kevin got hurt and their second round I believe versus Boston separated shoulder was out. Right. I mean that's impressive right there to be up to one.

Yes. Right? But also shows like they went to the future they went to the future right that was like the first I mean we played small with the Mario the 5 but they went

super small and maybe had more depth guys like Aguadala living still make more plays but it's interesting in series when a team find something yeah and they found something man and it just you know they found something they was able to go three straight

they went in 4 or 2 and it was like you felt the momentum just shift in that game 4 like they found something it was something that we couldn't We was here They was here And we We got to this going up to 1

And then they found something They went here And it was like we couldn't We couldn't get there Yeah couldn't reach that level You know And to come back to 2016 You know

Being down 3-1 You know Because it was the opposite Golden State went bigger For stretching that series Festus Zeeley played more Anderson Verraja Play some in that series

as well Bogot Obviously, you know, so they did, they went a lot bigger, you know, at times throughout that series. You know, and just going down, you know, 3-1 and happened to win a game five, you know, in Golden State. In Oracle, this is before the new arena, in Oracle, which is like a madhouse, you know, we feel like everybody's on top of you, you know. And, you know, I told the guys before we left, like I was like, listen, you know, we're going to win. we're going to win game five I can feel it

we're going to win game five I know you guys are upset about losing game four at home but whatever you got just bring it with you to Golden State I promise you if we get back to Cleveland for game six

there will be a game seven and I'll take it from there like I just need y'all to lock in whatever I know y'all not going to have much sleep they're not going to sleep after losing game four because we had our chances

and they just they took off on us in game four But once we won game five in Golden State, you know, you win a game like down on the road. You know how hard it is to win in San Antonio, you know, in the postseason. You know, you know how hard it is to win in certain buildings. And that momentum, when you win in certain buildings in the postseason, you're like, oh, man. Yeah, we broke through a new ceiling. We broke through a new ceiling.

And I think that's the momentum I felt, you know, when we won game five, you know, in Oracle. Did you, with Draymond out for Game 5, did you guys feel a certain sense of opportunity? Or did you think Oracle's just tough to play? No, we felt it was going to be even tougher because role players play better at home. We knew what Steph and Clay was going to bring, but we know, you know, Leandro Barbosa, you know, Mo Spates, Harrison Barnes. And you know, Iggy has another level. Iggy. You know, he's, Iggy is like.

that Mano Ginobley where, oh yeah, he's made coming off the bench, but he's a starter. Yeah, he's a closer. Yeah, he's a closer. Okay, you bring him off the bench, but you can start on any team, you know, because of what he brings, so you know these guys are going to play better on the road. So it was like, we need to lock in even more because, you know, the, you know, some guys just don't play, you know, role players sometimes get intimidated by road crowds. You know, but that one smaller there, though, in that series, didn't you?

Well, yeah, we went smaller. Small. Yeah, we played a lot with me and RJ and Kyrie, Swish, and Shump. Yep. You know, and Ordele, you know, at times. Cab was great for us in game five, but throughout, you know, the series, he wasn't always great. Didn't always have the same impact. But I thought Richard, RJ had an important role of that series.

He had a huge role. As someone, I was consulting for the Warriors at the time. Yeah. I thought his energy, his will, you know, him running the floor, him crashing the office. glass his physicality you know i think it bridged the gap for you guys a lot tristan was great for us tristan you know and being able to guard different positions offensive rebounds catch the lob catch it in the pocket yeah um yeah but that was fascinating series and and it's so interesting to think though like uh it felt like after game three

you know i know draymond getting injured can also play a role in flipping the momentum it felt like they were the better team. Yeah. And then you guys just spun that. Yeah. You know, how much did Game 5, like you said, you felt like you went to new level, did that affect the way you played in Game 7?

Because you'd already beat them at home. Yeah, we beat them at home. So we beat them at home in Game 6, which was... But, I mean, you won Game 5 in Oracle. Yeah, Oracle. You go home and win. You come back in Game 7. Did Game 5 give you guys a ton of belief,

or was it just... Yeah. Its own entity. I think, I think my guys just... What I told them before we boarded a plane to go to the bay, going to game five. Once what happened in game five happened, my guys believed that what I was saying was fucking coming true.

Y'all get me back to game six, we'll come back here for game seven. So it felt like the guy, it almost felt like destiny now to the guys. Yeah, for sure. We're meant to win this now. Yeah. It was like nothing that stopping us, you know.

And I mean, there's clips out there, is me in the locker room saying that they're messed up and things of that nature, and we got them, we write, you know, like, I just felt like we, they, I mean, they were the better team. I just think we just, it's the momentum way. We hit a momentum pop and, and, and, shit, they couldn't, it's nothing they could do about it.

It's nothing they could have did about. it once we got to that point. One of the most games in NBA history in the regular season. It was 73 and 9. That was the 73 and 9 team. You know, you played against the 72 and 10 bulls. Right?

Yeah. And I watched, yeah, you came in 96. Yeah, I was 98 when they did that. So you played against that team and I played against the 73 and 9 Warriors. Got to make it special. You know, the team, usually the best team wins. usually the best team wins

when the team like that loses those got to be the most rewarding ones. How do you equate that to the Miami teams? You know, those two Spurs series in particular Oh shit, I came back. That was another comeback, huh? Yeah, what was the

momentum swing in that one? The momentum swing in that one is being down 3-2, heading into a fourth quarter at home. I literally told myself if you don't make every play this quarter, we're going to lose. Offensively and defensively, we're going to lose. So not your normal self, you feel like you're going to make a lot of plays.

Now you're saying, I cannot make a mistake. I cannot make a mistake. I have to be involved in every play, offensively, defensively, flying around, steals, blocks, making plays offensively, assists, putting the ball in the basket. That was just the mindset, like that momentum of myself. It wasn't even a team momentum. It was like, if you don't do it, this is the moment where you can't rely on anyone else. I just, I had that mindset in order for it to go to a game seven, you know, all the way to the point where it was like, the only time I had doubt is when, you know, I don't know exactly the score.

But what pissed me off and I had a little bit of self-doubt and also it pissed me off at the same time is when the NBA personnel brought the yellow rope out on the court and the game wasn't over yet. There was a moment where I looked to their bench and they were all like arms locked. Getting ready to celebrate. And there was a moment I looked at NBA personnel

and it was bringing the ropes out on our home court and it pissed me off I was like I don't know how this is going to happen but we're about to make this happen I thought I was going to be the one to make the shot Ray Allen ended up doing it but I took two of them

you know I took two to cut the lead at one point I think if I were rewatched I think they went to the line missed a couple of free throws or whatever and allowed us to come back in and you know obviously we missed I missed it three

Chris Bosch got the offensive rebound. We all know to play and kicks it to Ray and Ray makes the shot. I thought I would be the guy at my mind I'm vision that shit

of me making that shot. I built myself up to that. But yeah, seeing those yellow ropes you know, because my whole life it's like the game is not over

until zero's on the clock and it was just super disrespectful. You took that personal. Yeah. That's how we Oh, my goodness. I play pickup. If someone slow-moed anything I did, like, I would be fucked.

By the way, everything looks worse than slow motion. Oh, it's not the same. Why do you think it's using movies? What the fuck? Also, the camera was called the Falcon Eyes camera, is what the NBA calls. That's a serious name. It looked like a satellite. I've never seen that in my NBA career.

It was unbelievable. That was the most unbelievable camera I've ever seen in my life. But like, they don't use it because there's already like 27 cameras on an NBA broadcast, so they don't really need it. And then this one time they pull it out of the back pocket. No, because it's me. They was like, oh shit, LeBron did it? Get the fucking Falcon out. We're about to introduce that shit right now.

LeBron's involved. We know somebody. I'm going to talk about this. Thanks for watching Mind the Game. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe for more content.