Miss Me? - A Month.

Episode Date: October 9, 2025

Miquita Oliver and Jordan Stephens discuss the playfulness in inventions, to vegan or not to vegan, and Black History MonthThis episode contains very strong language and adult themes. Credits:Producer: Natalie Jamieson Technical Producer: Will Gibson Smith Assistant Producer: Caillin McDaid Production Coordinator: Rose Wilcox Executive Producer: Dino Sofos Assistant Commissioner for BBC: Lorraine Okuefuna Commissioning Editor for BBC: Dylan HaskinsMiss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. What makes a bank more than a bank? It's more than products, apps, ATMs. It's being there when you need them, with real people and real conversations. Let's face it, life gets real. RBC is the bank that we Canadians turn to for advice, because at the end of the day, that's what you deserve. A track record, not some trend.

Your idea of banking that's personal happens here. RBC, ideas happen here. This episode of Miss Me contains very strong language and adult themes. That's right. It's Miss Me time. No, don't worry, Will, I've got this. I've spoken to Will extensively about this.

Thank you, Makita. Welcome to Miss Me, where I'm currently being our glory of last week's podcast awards win is being somewhat... What's the right word? What? No, I... Undermined. Explain. Because we won.

We were up for two awards. This is Miss Me. This is you as well. We're up for Best Video Innovation. I won an award. Which is new... We all did. Which is a new award.

They didn't have this character. group for and the other one was spotlight with spotlight's the bad man one spotlight's the one that you get awarded for if you're like having impact in the world really yeah i really love that one that's cool never won it but we're always nominated for it but we won video innovation um which is very much down to our incredible team member will yes will come on yes will but then you said and this is fine but you said i'm i'm proud very proud of will for inventing filming people sitting down. It's amazing.

Ah, but that's what you're wrong. No, honestly. Hey, listen, in all seriousness, I completely understand what's innovative about it. Don't be silly. No, God, because I know what I think we and Will did to have success in this realm in a unique way.

I've had the great privilege of being the public observing Miss Me for a minute until invited on as a guest. Thank you for no, I understand. You're so sweet. from my perspective there was a problem which was the fact that you and lil aren't always you know able to be literally in the same room and that was solved through a very lovely remote well lit and perfectly filmed set up which actually ended up becoming like a bit of a staple

because in the environment you get to showcase a little bit of your personality do you know what I mean yeah and I think also it doesn't look like a shit's Zoom. A lot of podcasts on shit zooms. Totally. It's like, can we just put a little just a little bit

of the budget on camera please? I know, but it's hard for some people out here, Keats, you know what I'm saying? It's not, it's hard for some people you've got to use

a website, I can't remember what it's called, probably can't say it anyway. But we got Will. Will's out here running like internet speed tests. We got Will and the internet and BBC.

And he's opening up multiple applications, right? Yes, he is. He's controlling the, sorry, he can't give all the secrets. He can't give all the secrets.

Yeah, shut up. Sorry, what Dino was saying when we won. He was like, man, keep an eye on Will. We don't want Will getting poached. I was like, yeah, no, of course not. Not that innovator. But it's nice to win.

I love winning. I really love winning. I'm not going to pretend I don't. Bloody love it. Awards? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fuck, yeah. Unfortunately, you're not allowed to do a speech

at the podcast awards because I had a whole thing prepared. Like, you probably can, you can remotely. What do you mean? You can probably go into a booth afterwards and press record and then like give a breakdown of, Not the same. There should be a podcast award podcast and then a podcast about a podcast award podcast. Don't because it is so close to like eating itself alive.

They organised it really well. It was produced really well and hosted very well. Podcasts are great. Everyone and their mum's got a podcast these days. Literally people have podcasts with their moms. But don't say that because that makes me feel like we shouldn't do a podcast if everyone's doing one. No, sorry, it's past that point. It's past that point.

What, do you say that to a musician? Everyone's making songs these days. Isn't everyone making music? That's actually a really good way of seeing it. Thank you for saying that. Yeah, you're right. You're right. I like being a leader.

I like being an originator. So to win something that's about... Life path 33, baby. Yeah. Life path 33. I love it. You're really coming into your own here in the absence of alcohol consumption. Well, I am looking at abstinence quite a lot at the moment.

Interesting. Yeah, that's good. I'd prefer to know that something is based on a life path and not just like an ego trip. Because it isn't about ego. that's not why I like to be original it's like deeper than that it's a life path of shit difficult to be original but you know

I do think that we said this last week I do I do agree you know why not want to change things and look at how to shift things in a different way constantly evolving I love that that concept and it's how we grow love that yeah man

but I'm very pro podcast man I'm into this shit I really am I don't I don't have any concerns about it being oversaturated and stuff like that I think if people can I mean well it would be great if there was some quality control

on some public yes yes which is unfortunate like the democratic nature of the internet can get a bit crazy but that again goes across all art forms that's not just podcast that's music that's video film but but I do like the idea that you know maybe everybody

just becomes a podcast and then you know if you just want to get to know someone you can just listen to like their last two weeks of their podcast and then you know maybe I'll be friends of this person so it becomes like their new Instagram maybe it could go that far keys it could go that far. Fucking hell.

Well, I'll be out doing something completely new and original. Oh my God, I had the most amazing meeting. Do you know how fucking crazy it is to be like at the stage of making a prototype? Like making a prototype is a wild, very new territory for me. These designers, right, whenever you come up to a problem, they don't say like, we've got a problem, we're fucked. They say, we've been met with something. We need to do more investigating.

And I've found that really calming as a process. TV can be quite like, oh God, what was? we're going to do to get out of this? It feels like improv, is what you're saying. It's more like improv. Suppose so. Yes and, no knows. Yes and.

That's the rule of improv, Makita. You never say no. Oh. You have to keep the improv going. Is that what we're doing right now? If someone goes, here's an orange, an improv, you don't go, thank you. You go, what a fantastic orange. This reminds me of the time I looked out the window.

It would be so shit at that. I hate that pressure. I've not done an improv class, but according to people who have done it, it is an incredible human pursuit beyond being an actor just reminding yourself of playing and just like getting outside your fucking head for 10 seconds or an hour and a half well actually yeah well the the whole point of like being in something so unfamiliar to me which is like the world of design I keep going back to the idea of play like actually my Buddhism day by day today said I think it was literally like if you approach life with a freshness everything feels like play and I love that I just want to

Play at the moment. Otherwise, I'm just going to die under the pressure. Hey, listen, I know a dragon. Which one? Which dragon you know? Which dragon you know? The dragon. If I said the dragon, which one would you say is the dragon?

Peter Jones. That's my boy. Oh my God. Shut the fuck up. Massive Rizzle Kicks fan. No way. I'm not even joking. Yes.

How do you know him? I spoke to him like two months ago. Oh my God. He loved Rizzle Kicks. See it. His kids do. No, he loves Rizzle Kicks. He's a Rizzle Kicks fan.

Fucking A. Well, so, Anna's kids, sorry, we played at his daughter's birthday. And I went to his birthday. Wow. I went to his 50th. What's his house like? So he didn't use his house for his birthday. And for his daughter's 16th or 18th to come in which one,

he picked us up in a car, drove us the whole way there. We got there. We did, you know, the hits to track, you know, in a little marquee. It was very cute. We performed to a crowd with some familiar faces in the crowd and then he gets up and does this really cute speech and he was like

one of our, I think of something along lines of one of my first memories or one of my most beloved memories of you as a kid is taking you to the fair and whatever else da da da da and then after a speech a side of the marquee dropped

and there was an entire fairground Oh my God yeah I knew he'd be that kind of dad he's that kind of dad anyway he's a great guy which is quite funny though is that I remember I remember when we were negotiating

the fee for one of the shows I realized I was trying to negotiate with a dragon and I was like I was like this is my fee and he was like no and I was like okay what do you want to do

it was like this and I was like fine final offer I'm in I'm in I'm in actually I'm just doing it for the first offer a fee that you gave.

He actually told me he's involved on a lot more things than you think and in the world of entertainment too. Interesting. Someone said to me the other day why don't you just go on Dragon's Den and I was like no we don't but I wouldn't mind negotiating with a dragon off camera

that would be an interesting thing. I'll speak to Peter in exchange for 3% of your business. Oh my God, we're like Dragon's Denning right now. Has anything ever actually come into the world from Dragon's Den? I think there was something actually Are you fucking kidding me?

Reggae, reggae, reggae. We can't Put some music in your food I was with him I was on his table At Peter's 50th Me and Levi He stuck you on Levi's table

Yeah Stuck me That guy's a hero I'd happily talk to Levi Roots Rigga song No but what a story though What a story We're talking too much about the dragons

I don't know why I brought it up I just think it's an inspirational story What happened to Levi Roots One of my biggest memories of Dragons Den was that there was one guy who came in. I remember this so vividly because it takes to say about things going into the world and he had a half sphere

and then we got like loads of holes in it and he came in and went this is to put in the middle of a pizza in the oven to make sure that the centre isn't soggy and they were all like, what? We're talking about simplicity is key to design. 100%. I watched a documentary about Dyson

the other day, which I've been trying to find. forever. It was actually part of that bigger show, Professor Hannah Frye, and it's called The Secret Genius of Modern Life. And it's just brilliant. And she did the history of the vacuum cleaner. Very interesting. And the reason that Dyson, he talks about the fact that like he did need to bring play to it and he did want to essentially make a toy for adults. And some of the biggest things in our life today, like our headphones, our water bottle, our phone, they're just toys for adults. And it's going back to that thing you said about play. There is a

part of us that always wants to play and wants to go back to the child within us. A hundred thousand percent. I mean the iPhone couldn't be more simple if it tried. It can be operated by a three-year-old. Yeah, and that's why we love it. It makes us feel smart. Can I just say this one more thing about this, about inventors and playing?

Because I just love this fact, right? And maybe if I have, if I miss me, does that count as copyright if I say this? All right. I'm going to try and copyright something on Miss Me right now. Wow. My dream film to be made. And I I would cast probably Michael B. Jordan in this role,

but that's a whole other conversation. There is a guy, it's a black man in America called Lonnie Johnson. And I, more than anything, want to buy a pick on this guy because he is the epitome of what comes from play. And he is literally a rocket scientist, right? So he worked for NASA.

He was so bright. So he was living in a really racist, like, Jim Crow era. He was so fucking talented. We shouldn't have to be exceptional to be able to transcend racism but it's just funny in context he would enter science competitions

that they would try and completely lean the other way but he would supersede so many like by such an extensive amount people making volcanoes erupt and this guy made like a fucking robot or whatever you know what I mean he's just like genius he's a genius like fucked with his lawnmower

and made it into a go car like shit like this right rocket scientist and while he was trying to figure out something to do with jet propulsion of rockets he accidentally made the supersoaker what's the supersoaker what's the super soaker again

the water gun okay is that any incredibly designed tool Makita he's made millions of not billions what's the difference between a water gun and a super soaker this is important did you not use a super soak what the fuck is going on yeah I think I did I'm just trying to remember to be fair he didn't invent it in 1989 what were you like 20 then

no that would have been just in time for me in my young life to really get involved but oh I know is the dumb Double barrel. You pump it. It's the pump. You pump it. That's what makes it super.

I need the specifics. You're right. He introduced the pumping element, which did make things somewhat more exciting. Yes. But it's just funny because, you know, he's invented loads of other probably more scientifically prevalent things, i.e., he was a rocket scientist. But what actually made him the success he is is the fact that whilst doing it, he was like, oh, I've just figured out a way to, you know, make a water. gone really fun. But this is what happens quite a lot in design.

Speaking of invention, there has been a recent invention, a new age invention. Tilly Norwood is her name. That's what they've gone for. This chick, they've decided in the world of AI to make an actress, make a human being that's going to be sort of acting in the real world. How do you feel about it? Depressed, to feel like it's the end of days. Why?

Because when I was young, no, throughout. my whole life, I have seen performances from actors that have changed my life. And I think the arts are a place where life can be changed and ideas can be nurtured and inspiration can be sparked to the point where you actually put something into action. Like, I can remember people in roles changing my life. I think when I saw Whoopi Goldberg in the Color Purple, I felt very changed after that. And that's not because of just the film. it's because of who Whoopi was

and the performance she gave and what happened to her life because of it. I think we get very invested in our actors and to have an actor that's not fucking real takes away a lot of that investment. I feel like it's my responsibility to play devil's advocate here. Go on then, I dare you.

Are you trying to tell me that a non-human hasn't changed your life cinematically? Oh, you shithead. What, like free willy? I don't know if you've heard of a little film called Space Jam. But no one has rivaled Bugs Bunny in that role.

And they couldn't. They could not. There's no Roger Rabbit, nothing, bro. Bugs Bunny is the best co-acting cartoon character I've seen will never be rivaled. Also, Simba. Did you say Roger Rabbit or Bugs Bunny? Bugs Bunny, I'm saying I don't want to hear about Roger Rabbit. I don't want to hear about no Jessica bullshit, bro.

Bugs Bunny own that shit. Okay, so are you saying that AI could recreate an animal that you would still feel invested in and not a human? I'm saying, look, she's programmed by a human anyway, this AI. I don't think she's sentient yet. And I feel as though if we are as humans trying to engage with how we feel, like you say, you were changed by a performance, there are limitations to what the AI can do, man. If a human's been changed by an AI's performance, that's to do with that person, that human being. There's a potential future where it's scary, where we're unable to differentiate between a good actor and a good AI actor.

But we're not necessarily there yet. Also, Tilly's not going to pop up in theatre, is she? Do you know what I'm saying? She's not going to pop up in a live performance of anything. She's occupying a small space. Can you imagine losing a role to her, though? That would feel strange. Look, I don't know.

The other thing is she looks a lot like somebody I would have dated in 2012. It's very confusing. She fucking does. She looks like a Jordan ex-girlfriend of 2007. I know. And I just sense the dissatisfaction. I just feel,

I already feel uninspired. You can taste the averageness. Just say it. Excuse me. I have some very exciting and interesting exes. Yes. Yes, you do. I'm just saying there was a phase of a Tilly Norwood look vibe.

Sure. Absolutely. And I just, not only is it the look, though, I went on her Instagram, the Tilly one. And the AI is doing shit like drinking, like, iced lattes and shit, like in the middle of the street. Let's keep her bland as fuck. And I'm just like, that is, that is so not something I'd be excited to watch, engage on screen.

And also, can I imagine losing a role to an actor? Can I imagine being an actor opposite what? What are you opposite? Surely a lot of acting, like, what do you do in acting that can't be done by Tilly? I'm not asking in an accusatory way. I'm genuinely like, what does an actor do? Like, surely. I guess, I don't know, because I don't think I'm like the,

there are actors I know who really, really are obsessed with the craft and that's not something I'm engaging with massively. But what I do think I can sometimes do with acting and why I'm somehow still getting acting parts is you go into a scene with a piece of information or an understanding or a desire and then you're acting opposite somebody else. And then bizarrely, even though you guys are both in inverted commas pretending or not being asked true selves you create this moment of truth within the scene which is kind of wild and it's quite trippy if you're not being you know if you're being you're finding a part of

you that's truthful but putting it through another story it's really quite wild you know there are loads of films out at the moment where actors are acting to cgi they're acting to someone holding a tennis ball on end of a stick like we've always been experimenting with that um i'm mostly concerned by how bland she appears yes that's our main concern And because it's like really like if we're going to try and be interesting. And then also look, I'll give you one example of when I'm kind of taken aback. Like you say, you were changed by Murphy Goldberg. There's a film I watched called Anatomy of a Fall.

Have you seen that? Oh my God. Sandra Heller. Sandra Hella. And in that film, right, when she's up in court, you know, I don't want to ruin it because people really should watch that film. But there was a moment where I actually had like an existential crisis because I couldn't, I couldn't believe that she was pretending.

I lost my ability to differentiate between it being a film. I realized in that moment that for a lot of films, I'm happy unknowing that these people are performing. I'm happy with that. It can be a really great performance. But with her in that role, I couldn't actually remember that it was a film. It really spun me out.

I was so invested in the truth. I was like, how the fuck is? And I'm like, what? And then you just press. And then someone says cut and then just goes home. Like, what? That's some good fucking writing. some good fucking acting magic magic how's your social life jordan what do you mean yeah how is it like

do you go out and like see people and do things and like have people over at the moment it's great because i'm in one place every evening so people just keep coming and say hi it's it's fantastic yes yeah yeah it's wild i need to shape mine up it's um a shit show at the moment and that go on why well i work too much and I focus too much on work and Garfield text me at the weekend was like you need to get a life like you need to go and have some fun yo

outrageous some Garth though he needs to chill I'm like great advice Garth can you sit down for a second if you could just reel it in and then I'll take mine out to be fair though he does he does read a lot though like

Garth does how man is to be social and academic and he also plays badminton like three times a week how does he balance that shit he's a very balanced fellow sort of he needs to write a book but i i was like all right yeah fuck it let me go out let me like see what hattney's saying turns out nothing it's saying nada what do you mean he went out like you went out for drinks i made the mistake of calling our beautiful friend grimy i love him but he he's cozy he's comfy he's living a soft life you know what i'm saying he's got his man i love that that I found for him

and he doesn't want to go anywhere further than like two streets from his house so we just end up in fucking Stoke Newington I'm like I can't do this anymore Stokey's great No it's not Not on a Saturday night Jordan

I'm gonna shake things up a bit Yeah I'm gonna come see you No you're quite domesticated I'm actually listen I see people I feel like I am I am content with walking my dogs And I like to FaceTime people But I do

I get itchy sometimes man and then I'll be like let me make a plan and then I make the plan. Do you and Jade have people over? Jade and I are very different socially. They're very different. You know we said this before she's got a small circle, she's quite contained. I'm like a Labrador I just

like run at people and ask them how they are and you know every now and again our paths cross we had a my mate over for a roast the other day called Kel who's lovely brought his brother and we met them at Glastonbury and that he's northern and you know he loves a roast and that, you know, Jade was like very enamored with them

and so it was like a natural thing to be like, I come over for a roast, man, you know. Who cook the bloody roast? Jade. Okay. They're obsessed every Sunday. I had vegans around for dinner, which is somewhat more challenging.

But I did it. I did a fucking amazing like four mushroom dahl. Nice. And then even like oat yogurt. I'd love to do dinners more. I really would. I like the idea of a kind of more casual, chill, that social thing.

I have people over football. Flynn came. over for football the other day. These are the kind of things where like where it makes sense, you know, like I guess a shared interest, a time and place always helps, especially with boys. I don't know if it's the same for, well, boys, for men, it's the same for women where it's like to get into the schedule almost of some of my male friends. It has to be a time, place and event.

Does that event usually mean sports? This is what I'm trying to say. Well, yeah, sports is a good one. But it's what I'm trying to say with the play. It's like I can literally be like, meet me at the young event. They're like, cool, central, and then I see people. There's a big shock in my 30s where suddenly people have responsibilities, jobs and children on occasion. So I'm very last minute.

I'll hit people up the night before, like, yo, my shit got cancelled tomorrow, let's go cinema. Children makes a real difference. But like Harley, for example, I've got to book that shit in. Yeah, two kid Harley. Two kid Harley. If I's got to see my God door, I've got to give like fucking two weeks advance notice, you know what I mean? Is that little Shmoo-Schoo, your goddaughter? A while, yeah.

That's my Goddaughter, bro. Baby is cute. Yeah. Okay. I have to be a better godparent. But I just want to say, I had Simon Amstall around for dinner. He was the vegan. He was said vegan.

He was on bloody good form. It was him and his boyfriend. And then my friend Jesse and his boyfriend. And Jesse and Simon have now become very close. Well, they've been known each other for 20 years, but through me. But now they're like, they have their own friendship. It's got nothing to do with me, which I'm fine with, I think. You sound fine.

I'm totally cool with it. They're writing together. the now and they've written something really brilliant. And I sort of toyed with the idea of being a vegan. I was like, okay, if this was how you were cooked for Simon, then if you were going to be an actual vegan, this is how long things would be. Because Sophie and Garfield's goddaughter made me watch

just a five second clip of a vegan documentary and it's fucking stayed with me. It's just a moment of a pig being... Yeah, don't eat pig. Yeah, okay. Okay, so no sausages. Don't eat pig, don't eat cow. I'm no red meat

That's me baby No red meat But since I've been so pro-pigeon I've had mad love Yeah You've had to stop eating all that game No but the issue is Yeah I eat chicken and fish

Because I have an actual Like long-standing vendetta With chickens And it's not right So sorry Eating them is some sort of retaliation I got chased around a barn In Queens Park

By some chickens Yeah When I was a kid Wow was it scary As a child, 100% These guys were trying to peck the fuck out of me Let me disclaimer of this I got like two friends who have farms

And I am like, let me meet the chickens I'm happy for me to get my shit rewired, yeah But like in my head I'm not a perfect person I've got to have some darkness in me And so far that darkness is channeled Into eating chickens and fish In my mind yeah

White meat is nature's way of being like You can kind of have that if you want Red means like swerve that shit bro Like you can't be eating the red meat bus But that's so subjective Because I saw someone say this on the an ugly delicious actually with that brilliant chef. David Chang, that's his name.

They were talking about why it feels easier to eat chicken than any other meat. And they were saying it feels like it was the bird put on the planet to be eaten, which is, I think, quite a galling thing to say, because that's just up to you. I love eggs too, bro. They're just popping these things out and be like, eat them, boss. Cool. So you don't eat burgers and you don't eat sausages.

With all meats, really, the issue's not necessarily the fact that we're eating meat is how it's being produced. No, it's farming. of course it is. A lot of the reason why I don't want to eat red meat is because I don't want to eat the stress of an animal. This is what happened with the pig. This is what fucked me up. This pig was about to be slaughtered

so that I can eat a sausage or whatever and it was shaking with fear. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't. I can't. And now I'm like, fuck. I fucking love pigs, man. I can't look at a sausage without thinking that I'm eating an animal's terror and pain.

Good. But why wouldn't I, why wouldn't I being a salmon's terror and pain as a hook came to come through its mouth. This is where it gets complex, because I understand the argument of vegans. I really do, actually. Because the idea is that if now we have the choice, why can't we move our space elsewhere? You know, why can we make the choice to engage only with plants

and things that aren't, you know, have flesh of any kind? And I do get that. However, I do get that. I'm not a perfect person. I have issues. I literally have issues, yeah. You're also a carnivore as a human being. I love the taste of chicken.

I love the taste of fish. I don't know. I don't have enough informational rationale to say this because a lot of people say that chickens are really intelligent and lovely and you can build relationships with chickens and maybe one day I will and I'll stop eating the chicken. I will also say, while we're on the topic,

plants are also arguably sentient. Apparently the smell of freshly cut grass is the grass emitting a pain signal to the other grass blades. Because it's been cut. It's literally a blade of grass, screaming in agony and we're like what a lovely smell it's like my favorite smell there's an underground like mycelium network of like fungi and trees that communicate across underneath

forest floors like there's there's an incredibly complex life to plants I actually think plants are almost godly so at what point do we draw the line of like what's considered to be fair and just and sentient like what what was that I'm just a genuine question I'm not talking about eating rosemary as a herb or like cutting flowers for vases. I'm not even best to talk about this. Simon's best to talk about this because we should also be respectful

to our ecosystem and the plants and there are loads of things that become mass produced that become really damaging to the environment. Kinoa farming, avocados like these things once they become popular, become incredibly damaging. It's really different. Basically there's no ethical consumption

under the level within the level of capitalism that we're in right now. But this is also what we have to have our own personal ideas of what willing to do. Thank you. That was bloody interesting. I knew you'd be interesting on this subject. I really wanted to pick that apart with you, just like we pick at our delicious meaty lunch. I'm joking. We're going to go to the break now. We will see you after the break. I'm just going to go enjoy a, um, smoothie.

Wow, we're chatty today, aren't we? I know, it's really long. Welcome back to Miss Me. Hello, everyone. Hello world. Hello, Spain. Hello, Australia. Hello, South London.

Black History Month is upon us, actually. Right now. It's only UK. You know, it started in America, though, and they were doing it in America for like 30 years before we decided. They still do it. It was February. Yeah, yeah. I'm just saying, like, we knew that this was happening somewhere else, and we only latched on 30 years later.

But I want to talk about the guy that started it, because I don't think I've ever heard his name before, and I'd like to say his name today. Brac Obama. It was Barack Obama. No. Mr. T. It was launched in London by a Ghanaian man called Akiyaba Ade Sebo. and originally founded to recognize the contributions that people of African and Caribbean backgrounds

have made to the UK over many generations, if you best believe. Did you know, I didn't know there was actually like a theme every year. This year's theme is the 60th anniversary of the Race Relations Act, Malcolm X passing, Malcolm X's passing, and the Bristol Bus Boycott. Bristol Bus Boycott I only learned about recently as well. Shut up, Malcolm X. He's my favourite. I really want to watch the Denzel Washington film where he played him, but I'm bit nervous because I know.

There's a fucking deep, dark story there. But this is something I've learned about black history. For so long, I have turned away from it because it is so harrowing and so upsetting. So when I spoke to Phoebe this week and said, Jordan was saying that there was black history taught in his school. And he's had it in his young education. Please remind me what ours was just in case I'm getting it wrong. She was like, nah, not mentioned. No, no, no, no, not colonialism.

No, no, no, no. They just give you Martin Luther King. Well, it's interesting that it's Martin Luther King because I believe in this country, a lot of the black history that we were taught relates it to black American history. And I knew nothing about the role of the black person within our history. Nothing about wind rush, not to mention the role of the black person in 16th, 17th and 18th century Britain. Like, nothing about our slave trade. So tell me about what you learned in your school, a whole eight years younger than me.

I seem to recall there being a very brief engagement with the civil rights movement. That's what we were briefly told about. And I remember thinking, you know, that Martin Luther King is the person that everybody speaks about because he wanted peace. That's the thing. I felt like what the right of passage that a young black person goes through in this country, certainly, is you're told that Martin Luther King wanted peace and he was tragically shot, which for me now as an older man thinks it comes with its own undertone. and then you get older and then you think you start to hear about Malcolm X

and then people say yeah but Malcolm X I'm not sure about that because you know he he wasn't really as peaceful he didn't have all the dreams that Martin Luther King had and then he also got shut

and then you start to learn more about these leaders and you understand why and how that civil rights movement was framed because I didn't learn about Emmett Till I didn't learn about why the civil rights movement began

Emmett Till, we should probably explain that horrific story of that poor young boy. Emmett Till was falsely accused of whistling at a white woman. The white woman went and told a bunch of guys that this black boy, child, whistled at her, and he was beaten to death. They took him to a barn and tortured him for like 24 hours. Yeah, so that was the beginning of the civil rights movement. That's what triggered it. And so a lot of the pain was kept out. Those kind of stories that are just full of so much horror are kept.

from you. And this is also white kids too. Racism is not a black issue. This is a people problem. And a psychosis. I remember Maya Angelou said something really great, which was that the racist is the crazy person to believe that someone's color of skin

is a threat to you to the point where you have to violently attack and murder and kill and keep down. That is a psychosis of its own. I thought that was a really interesting way of looking at it. All I remember vividly, especially with history, is I felt like I left school.

Like I literally, I literally remember leaving school and being like, oh, cool, white people did invented everything. They changed everything. White men just came up with it all. Eriturity, technology, saved people, won all the wars, won every war. You know what I mean? And I was like, all right, cool. That must just be like the world.

And then, you know, you understand there are other sides of the story. There are reasons why, you know. And that's why I think so many, especially black people, become emboldened and kind of infuriated in the latest stage of their lives once they start to learn more because it's unfair that so much of the context has been taken from us, you know?

I think for me as well, like eight years before you, where I would see it pop up, it would be really chilling and traumatising because it would just pop up in like a hip-hop music video or like a lot of films. Like there was this film called Fried Green Tomatoes, which is a brilliant film. It's about like a boardhouse wife who goes to an old people's home to visit like a relative

and she meets Jessica Tandy. She tells the story of a young girl growing up in 1920s and 30s in the South in America. And the Ku Klux Klan are heavily involved in the story and I'd never seen them and I didn't know what it meant and I was terrified and my mom had to explain that. And also imagine for my mom as a black woman having to explain that to me and that that was real And it was very like, oh, right, so evil's real and it's coming for you. You're a target.

They want you. It's a lot to take on. Really, I would implore you to watch that film. Fried Green Tomatoes. You'll love it. You'll cry. I've not seen 12 years of slave either. I'm just not that, like, I'm just not like,

oh, I know what I want to do with my time. Remind myself of trauma. See, but that goes against everything I just said, which is we can't turn away from these stories. I know. Mekira, I'm not perfect. I found 12 years of slave terrifying, but we have to. My cousin and my husband.

My mum turned up to my house after watching it in floods of tears. Yeah. But look, I will. I'll watch it. I'll watch it. Especially now I know more about it in general. Well, it's too much to hold. It's like incomprehensible.

But it was the only way I would find anything out about the ancestral trauma of my people. Phoebe said to me, don't remember there was like a raster woman at our play centre and she would sort of sit us down and tell us stories of black culture and black history. But this is like, you know, this is just lucky that she was about. There was nowhere for us. to find out these stories. And I went, what's going on with Black History Month then now? Like, what do young children, young people,

and all of us have to look at now? And it's so good. Like the BBC, there's like a whole CBBC section of Black History Month, which is unbelievable, like quizzes about being a black person and the history of black people. If I had stuff like that, fucking hell. I can't imagine what it would have done to me as a young person to just have that engagement and that focus on who you are

and the people you come from and what they've been through. I was actually really impressed. And also, you know, for adults as well, all over TV. TV is very much focused on Black History Month, and they are trying their best. And also with children's literature, I know that you've written children's books and you have an arm in that world.

And the books, that whole line of books of young black leaders for young people to read. I always thought those were amazing as well. I hope so. I mean, if I'm to base it on, let's say, the last month of British history, I'd say that there's still a huge void in people's understanding

of why the country as it is, as it is. I don't know if they teach colonialism in schools, but I can't help but feel as though it's weird to make a differentiation between black history and white history, especially in the context of something like Britain. Yes. Black British history is British history.

It's the same history. I don't understand what, what's, like, the reason why colonialism is an important thing to teach in schools it's not like a left-leaning it's not a liberal inclusive agenda

it's so you know whilst you're fighting for what you think is fair in your country you understand why the country is how it is why these people are in your country like you know

it's shocking to me this isn't everyone but it's shocking to me how many how few people understand that people on Windrush were invited over like I see a these conversations now around flags

and stuff, you know, and they're always using other examples like, in Poland, this or in Denmark it's illegal to fly another flag. It's like, boss man, Poland and Denmark didn't go around the entire fucking world, telling everybody it's the best country in a world, forcing them to live within their culture,

changing their history. There isn't why there's so much sensitivity around the flag, right, regardless of what you believe, is because people have come and rebuilt this country after the war, they've got brown faces, someone of fought in the war, a lot of them fought in a war, something that Carla speaks of, two million Southeast Asians, like, fought, you know, when the empire was in full flow, you were considered a British citizen. If my grandparents, great-grandparents were born in Guyana

under British rule, they were considered a British citizen. Yeah, same with my uncle, John. They were taught about the royal family. My grandmother was a royalist. Yeah, absolutely. They thought they were coming to their country. They thought they were coming home. And then, And then my grandfather, who was a professor at the University of Georgetown in Guyana, he came over to deliver these talks. And he was treated like shit. I've got letters from, he wrote letters. And he talks how confused he was.

He was thought he was going to the land of multiculturalism, of open arms and opportunity. And people were fucking racist. The reason why colonialism is important is just to have an understanding of why Britain is how it is. It's not forcing people to think or do anything. You know, the empire is the empire. It happened. okay and the thing that annoys me the most is gaslighting people into believing that oh everybody did slavery and everybody had a tough time let's just move past it no actually my name is

jordan stevens stevens is a fucking slave name i can't just move past that shit all of us that came from caribbean we have to remember the concept of being owned every time we write our name on a form i'm going to change my name by the way i'm going to change my last name at some point are you actually at some point i feel like it's a right of passage wow i'm not trying to to force people to feel guilty who haven't had a direct thing on it. I'm not trying to tell people that they have to live there. Just at least understand that the history is complex and severe. Sorry. This is something that gets really upsets me. No, I totally, this is what I mean. It's not, it's a really fucking hard thing to talk about because there's so much anger and rage

and confusion, but from all sides and education and educating ourselves on the real fucking story is a way to find peace and find a better future. It also isn't over. If it was like, God, that was a bit of a nightmare. Thank God it's over. Like, you've got to be joking. Like the windrush scandal a few years ago when they were trying to send people back, deport people, deport black people who have helped build this country back to their islands and tell them that they don't belong here. That is an issue. That is a problem. And that is why we need to discuss it still. And that is why a month is not enough. A month is not enough.

And also it's like, you know, all of this stuff, all of this stuff that we end up feeling emotive about, this cold reality is it's all to do with money. All of it to do with money. Even the creation of racism or race difference was just to subvert people's attention away from the fact that rich people were having an easier time of it. Rich white people had slaves.

Poor white people didn't. So what they said to them was, you're better than no slaves. And they went, oh, yeah, cool. I'll stop thinking about the fact that I have. nothing compared to you. Yeah, yeah. There were slavers on the continent who were selling their own people.

Slavery exists all over the world and has done historically through time. For me, the thing that is the most painful is the colonial aspect. The idea that identity, culture and history were stripped from these places and replaced. That's the pain that I feel stings and lasts longer, you know? Yeah. And, you know, one thing that pains me the most from my, from my, what I've grown to learn is, you know, for example, I'd say nearly everybody. in Britain, if not everybody learns about World War II, of course, because of our part in it,

and because Adolf Hitler, compared to other people in history, is up there, one of the worst people to live. But why don't we learn about King Leopold II? I've been reading about this guy, the Belgian ruler. He killed like 10 million Congolese people. I didn't even learn about that shit in history. It's relevant now. Congo is still stripped and starved and exploited for its resources to this day and we engage in this i'm not like some fucking moral superior whatever i've got an iphone i like i'm not i understand how complex it is but just talk about it king leopold the second not only did he murder congolese people he also exploited them on a different level he wasn't just killing them he was cutting their hands off and putting them back to work if they didn't

bring enough minerals he'd cut their hands off we talk about nukes right like the the nuke in world war two that's a massive part of history we learned about the manhattan project do we learn about where the uranium for the nuke came from? Do we learn about the people who dug that shit out the fucking ground? That's what annoys me. It's as if Africa's this invisible entity whilst Europe booms

into this beautiful civil affluence. It's like, yeah, off of the back of labour that you never saw or heard about. Yeah, yeah. Right over. No, really, really well said. I think that was really well said. I didn't realize what an emotional tie I was going to have to all this.

I thought I was always going to be able to keep it kind of at a safe distance as something that happened a very long time ago. And when we were in the Caribbean and started to learn more and more, I was just like, it's deep. It's fucking deep,

but it's also so important that we all, as people, do not turn away from this just because it's hard to hear. It's our duty to not turn away. It's our duty. That's exactly the right time. It's our duty on all aspects.

I like our new school. I like the McKita and Jordan's school. Yeah. I would have liked to have come to this school and be taught by you. You would have been quite a groovy professor. Yeah, you'd be a great teacher. It's so odd that you keep touching on things that I've just engaged with.

Like, I literally just read a book about colonialism like last month and I was stuck there like, fuck me. That is Miss Me. We're like in sync right now and it sort of miss me. But do you, can I ask you one thing before we finish the episode because I am interested? Have you leaned into the discomfort of learning about the history of Caribbean Islands? Are you actively wanting to engage in it now? or do you feel like you wished you had not learned about it

and could live in that kind of ignorant state of... No, not at all, because what was interesting for me is my distance from being an African person was really prevalent in a lot of the Caribbean people that we met. This sometimes need to stay close to the Caribbean side of us, but the Caribbean side is the colonised side of us. Like, we're not from the Caribbean. I mean, that I had to get my head around Jordan.

I remember you saying to me, you remember you going, Jordan, I did my DNA test, guess what? And I remember I said, you're Nigerian. And you went, how did you know? I was like, because that's where we were all taken from, motherfucker. What are we talking about? Guess what?

Turns out, I'm Niger. It's like, you know, no shit. But that was interesting as well, just the map. Seeing like, you know, just the West Coast. Just the West Coast, baby. It was like, motherfuckers couldn't even be bothered to go inland. It was like, I just get all from the side. Couldn't get there.

Jordan, I do, honestly. I love talking to you. And I, um. I worry I yap. it's nice to hear that. Yapping is needed. Jordan, shut up. Makita Oliver.

God, imagine Jamie Oliver's ancestors owned. Do you have a thought about that? Oh, yes, we have thought about that, actually. We have thought about that, big time. Because you know what? I got shown the Oliver plantation at the British Museum. And it fucked me. I was like, oh yeah, it's not our name.

Duh. So anyway. Anyway, we'll see you for listen, bitch, next week, which is dogs. Yay! Zedi, come here. Oh, shit. She's there. Oh, my God.

Very good. Bye. Thanks for listening to Miss Me. This is a Persefonica production for BBC Sounds. The figure's face was featureless, and its entire body was jet black. I'm Danny Robbins, and throughout October, I will be sharing uncanny listeners,

real-life ghost stories. That's one every single day as we count down to the spookiest time of the year. Suddenly, all hell lets loose. The sound of glass smashing, heavy objects being thrown, doors being ripped off hinges.

It was coming from the cellar. I looked up and was staggered to see a humongous black triangle floating silently over the rooftop. Join me as uncanny count down to Halloween. in October on BBC Sounds.