Miss Me? - An Appreciation of Fearne Cotton and Monty Don

Episode Date: September 10, 2026

An apology on Miss Me? led to Miquita joining Fearne Cotton for her latest Happy Place festival, plus Jordan and Keets react to Monty Don’s decision to leave Gardener’s World. And why was it the books we consider children’s classics all got written around about the same time? Miquita Oliver and Jordan Stephens question what led J.R.R. Tolkien and Lewis Carroll to think up the stories about hobbits and wonderland, and if their imaginations may have been enhanced in any way? Meanwhile looking at TV schedules today, why does violence towards women feature so much, and is violence an inevitability we should prepare for? Get weekly recommendations for things to watch or read or listen to from the Miss Me? Library every Friday at patreon.com/missmeFollow the show on instagram and TikTok @missme.4evaYou can contact Miss Me? on email at [e-mail] Producer: Natalie JamiesonTechnical Producer: Oliver Geraghty Assistant Producer: Katie-Louise BuxtonVideo Editor: Jack BoswellProduction Coordinator: Tom JacksonExecutive Producer: Sam MichellMiss Me? is a Persephonica show Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This episode is brought to you by McVitties Jaffa Cakes. Right, Jordan. It's time. What do you mean? Well, obviously we've debated many things over the years. Many, many subjects have been covered. But now it's finally time to like really talk about whether a Jaffa Cake is a cake or a biscuit. It's a cake.

I don't feel they are because you find them in the aisle of biscuits. You keep them in a biscuit tin. That definitely keeps them. the biscuit family. I think that's just a location-based. That's just idealistic. It's for people to be. People aren't as tapped in as they'd like to be.

Ultimately, they're made of a light sponge. It's a cake. They're called cakes. Yeah, but they are biscuit-shaped. They are biscuit-shaped. They're called cakes. And when they go hard, that's because they're stale, like, a cake. Biscuits go soft.

And I guess most importantly, the answer is on the box. Jaffa Cakes. It's a cake, you biscuit. Okay, fine. I think we do give this round to the cake team. But really it's a debate that could go on forever and should. This is the important stuff in life to discuss. Yes. You can find McVitie Jaffa Cakes in all major supermarkets right across the UK. Welcome everybody to this week's edition. Edition like a magazine. To miss me. Miss me with me, Jordan Stevens and the wonderful McKeeter Oliver. Hi, nice to see you Jordan It's a joyous job Yeah, yeah, let's enjoy this job

I felt very like Like that on Sunday I was like Because I had to go to Fern Cotton's Festival Oh yeah, yeah, yeah I did a happy place

And I was like, there's a job to be done here today There's a good job to be done here today How do you mean? I was excited to see Fern Because believe it or not Once we saw each other I realized that We had only ever

physically spent time together when she dated Steve. Apart from that, I've never met her. Yeah, it's mad. But you feel like you're doing it because they're on socials and that. No, babe. This was the naughties. It wasn't because of socials. Recently.

It's because we were just, no, just as simple as like, you're both on the telly. So you think you know each other and you're both sort of the same age and you're in the same. Right, right, right. But I didn't ever, like, ever hang out with her. I'd never met her until she, and we'd already, I'd already, like, lost a job because of what I'd said about her. Do you know what I mean? and I'd never met her.

I didn't realize that. Anyway, it was really good to go, but I wanted to do an excellent job is what I mean. I've never done anything like that with her. She's a really good interviewer, and I felt like we were doing something very healing for ourselves, and we shared so much common ground, and it just felt like kind of big,

really big moves were being made for us together and for the audience from something so small is just like being honest with each other. Like she said it that she felt like it was a risk. The first message she sent to me and she was like, well, if McKeia doesn't get back to me, whatever, I'm happy that I sent it. I wanted to send her this love.

And thank God she sent that, right? And thank God I responded and thank God. And thank God we talked about it and missed me. And all that stuff. Miss me so powerful. I sat there thinking, God, miss me so powerful. It's just done another kind of big life-changing thing for me in my life. And also helped some other people talk about the very complex relationship

the women have with each other. So I'm very happy we can do that. And I call Fern Cotton a friend now. Captain Fern. Captain Fern. Yes. I mean, listen, if anyone didn't know, she's the reason why Rizzle kicks happened.

She loves you so much. She loves you so much. She put us as record of the week that she literally made Rizzle... She made down with the trumpet. She took it from 144 to 8 in a month. She was almost like a patron. She was the first person to play Ristle Kicks on Radio 1.

Well, thank you, Fern Cotton. And we got her skipping, of course. Yeah. And she was good. And I was very impressed at this whole sort of world she's built. You know, she was at the forefront of turning a podcast into something bigger, like adding books to it. And then at an entire festival. And it's like eight years old, I think the festival is.

At least. Wow. So there you fucking go. Good for her. It was really great. It was really good. I brought my cousin Solomon. Why is that funny?

Because Sullivan was on a roll-through situation. I was like, you can't stay up all night and then come to a wellness festival. That's ideal. He must have been in heaven. He must be like, great. Take me back from the depths. Yeah, Tuesday.

He's like, vegan burgers and coffee. Yes, please. A roll-through crazy. I know. Can you even fucking imagine? Now just talk. me that Monty Don has just quit gardeners well. Jordan. What? Why do you think he's done that? Probably wants to focus on gardening. Right. And I'll have to do it on screen. Oh my God. That's devastating.

He's done his work. He might be free for Miss Me Now. He might be. Can I say this is a sad day. How long has he done it for? I'd say probably 25 years. What? That's ages. 20 years. Yeah, 23 years Wow She'd text him See how he's feeling Probably feels like the grass is greener Oh my God

Okay, that's enough You're not ruining this sentimental Greener pastures on say He's probably moved on to greener pastures He's probably moved on to greener pastures But I would like to say Thank you for your service To this country and gardening

He's still working Healing and people I'm just meeting his tenure At Gardner's World Okay And my Friday night's at 8th clock will never be the same. There is not a chance in life that you've been watching Garden as well every Friday at 8pm.

There's not a chance. And religiously, for the last six years, religiously ask my mum. Every Friday. Ask my mum. Truly, Monty, thank you for everything. So when you say that, like, job, that's fascinating to me. So do you feel like you have to change something in your brain before you do something, like Happy Place or this podcast?

No, because on Friday, you and I did that. live miss me sort of event thing yeah shout out lush I would very much say that like I definitely was like

right I'm at work and he's do a good job and you'd already been at two things at work doing your job but you'd never have that I've been at work

and doing a job energy never I don't yeah but like I didn't for a lot of the I don't get paid for a lot of the podcast I do I don't really I don't see

getting paid as it being a job I don't get paid for a lot things I do, but you still got to go to a job. Basically, it's Myerangelo and Oprah. Just be excellent no matter what you're doing. And for me, that means do a good job. Turn up. That's interesting though, because I feel maybe I've internalised the idea that a job almost comes at the expense of my desire to do it. Like, I feel like a job is something where I'm like, oh, I've got to do this, like a chore. I feel like I'm more towards like chore for job rather than this is my profession. I feel

I could not believe that people will pay me to talk to dream. Okay, what is your favorite, let's not say job, favorite thing that you do in your working profession under the umbrella of like your profession? I literally love talking. I genuinely, I cannot explain to you how, how, it's only, there's only, there's been scenarios where I can go into a situation of a conversation or a podcast

and for whatever reason that the energy of that podcast can drain me. But it's rare, genuinely. It's happened like, I don't know, twice. Or maybe when I was off medication, it would happen less. You're still good to go. It would happen more. But yeah, but like, largely speaking, I get given in it.

I get like, I feel energized by conversation. I leave it with more, if it's in good faith, you know. So I do love that. I also love writing. I love writing and I love talking about words and writing. It makes me very happy. But that feels like a job because that is also quite hard. Yeah, writing is quite hard.

I just got a great new job in writing. I won't talk about it yet. But like, wow. And I wanted to ask you about writing. And children's literature, particularly because I've been watching this series that Jordan, I know you don't like telly in this way, but you would really love this. It's called Wonderland. I told you about it, right?

No, but before you tell me about Wonderland, can I, can I, Can I bookmark this? Because I do want people to know this. I have to talk about our Patreon at the early doors. But if you want extra cultural insight, there's a Miss Me library that drops every Friday. We record it after the main show. If you join our Patreon, you can listen to it.

And it is genuinely a very impassioned, like, I don't know, I feel like I will in that space review pieces of art that have like really inspired me and we want to share. That was the perfect way to describe it. Thank you very much for describing it. describing it like that. Yeah. That is what it is.

It's a world of wonders, actually. And this Wonderland show is amazing because, I mean, I love that name. But it's about this incredible 75 year period that essentially birthed children's literature. And I never really thought about the quick succession of all these incredible writers like J.M. Barry and C.S. Lewis and Lewis Carroll and Beatrix Potter, sure. C.S. Lewis wrote Narnia, right? Yes. And you have to think about these...

Did you just dismiss Beatrice Potter? Well, I don't... I shouldn't after watching it and really understanding what she did. But I was never a huge Beatrix Potter fan as a child, but Narnia, Narnia was me and Lily's life. Like there was the most amazing line

in the witch and Mordra BBC adaptation when we were kids and we used to live on those videos. And I just thought it was a beautiful kind of exploration of this time that is filled with a lot of tragedy for a lot of these authors, there's a lot of death. And they turn this pain into something so beautiful for all of us

by creating these magical worlds. Like, think about Alison Wonderland. Just actually think about how mad Alison Wonderland is. It's not just about a trip. It's about the imagination of what happens on said, let's say, acid trip. I'm not sure it was acid. Was it acid about mescaline, maybe? Mushrooms.

Yeah, maybe it was more of a mescal. Killen time. Most kid stuff is psychedelic, actually. That's what I love about it. Magic Roundabout. Sure, but if you go back to like, who did Lord of the Rings? That's not J.M. Barry. J.R. Tolkien.

Exactly. Tolkien. I don't think that's drugs. No, that's like, that's like, but Asperger's autism. I'm not qualified, sorry, legally, I'm not qualified to assign any form of whatever. But like the fact that J.R. Tolkien, just the context of me suggesting something along an autistic spectrum is because he literally developed entire languages. Like, Elvish is a completely fluent language that you can speak. And usually people who have an ability to be able to shape worlds like that have, you know, like a particular way that their brain works, which gives them

access, which often comes at a cost. I don't know what his personal life was like, but, you know, sometimes. It's an extension of not being afraid of pain and loss and tragedy because look what we as human beings do with that stuff. Look at these worlds that they create. created for us out of the most tragic things that could happen to a human being. So what do you think? Sorry, I just realized LSD didn't exist and that someone was written. Hold on. Yes. But if you watch Wonderland, the story is that it was two lovely men in a boat, telling a story to a young family and the youngest girl is Alice.

Oh, they say that it was nothing. Okay, that's brilliant. There's no drugs involved. Okay, okay, hold on. I wonder what psychedelic drugs were about. I mean, I guess mushrooms. Mescaline. Mascualine. So Nat's just found an article about the link between Alison Wandsland and drugs. And duh, Jordan, there are mushrooms.

They're saying, genuinely, some medical researchers suggest that the surreal size-shifting imagery in his books might have been inspired by his own experiences with severe migraine oras, a phenomenon that later inspired the medical term Alice in Wonderland syndrome. Whoa. Isn't it an aura like a vision? Yeah. Wow, a vision from a headache. This is bizarre.

Sorry, I had no, I really just always assumed because it's so, it's so evocative of like a psychedelic trip. And that's such a continuous theme, I think, with fairy tales and myths led generally, that there's like this kind of mad cross-up at Christmas. You know, there's a whole theory about Christmas with the particular mushroom and the reindeer's peeing it out. Yeah. Yeah, you told us once. It was galling. Yeah.

But anyway, that's also amazing. Maybe I'm just, maybe we're in such a, maybe the attack on our imaginations is so profound that I can't possibly perceive the idea that Lewis Carroll simply sat there. Journeyed into his own DMT source and created a gorgeous story. Thank you very much. You're the one that told us we can make ourselves high with the shit we produce and they probably just were. Literally every night people dream. Should be the first thing we talk about every day. Yo, did you triples last night?

Yeah, me too. What the fuck? Actually, you're so right. right. I had such a vivid dream last night. And we're so used to just living in some completely made up world for an evening and then coming back into the world and be like, okay, that was insane. Let's go. Yeah. You're so right. Also, what's so wild is I feel like symbolism is so strong that people, I can have the same, I can have a similar dream to somebody on a whole other continent in a whole other culture, but the feeling and the meaning transcends our differences. You know what I

mean. So like I feel like a lot of people dream about being overcome with like a body of water or a stampede, which is like always reflected back to being like overly emotional or like a loss of control. Like a stampede dream I had when I was going through the grief and I thought like I didn't watch anything to inspire that, you know? Was it like lying king stampede? Like you're on the floor and I've watched like three times in my life but yeah, probably. But like the stampede, you're like an animal the stampede's coming for you? It was akin to that kind of stampede in like, I think I can remember that, yeah. Jesus, that must have been terrifying.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the feeling, the feeling is like just a total loss of control, like, like everything being, you know, but I feel like people can have those dreams across, around the planet, which is, or flying in freedom and all that kind of thing. I think that's why I loved this show, because it's not linked to, what's the right word, secondary sources. It's linked to what's in us anyway. What is wrong with me?

This is making me want to weep. Why? Just the fact that like C.S. Lewis could, you know, it is, I think Narnie is about religion, right? Not Narni, a line witch in the wardrobe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Philip Pullman is a big hater of C.S. Lewis.

Right, well, sure, he can hate on him, but look what C.S. Lewis created for the world. And, you know, your children's author now and you do the same thing. You create these worlds for these children. And I'm sure you're, you're by not even osmosis, I'm sure you're quite conscious that you are heavily

influenced by these worlds that you entered as a child. And I just feel, I think why it makes me want to cry because I'm just like, what if they never did it? What if they never created Narnia? I think I've ever read or seen Narnia. What?

I know. The fuck is. even in childhood. No, I know, I know it's bad, isn't it? Well, you're such a voracious reader. This shit is beautiful. Yeah, I just went down a different path when I was a kid. I went down Philip Pullman and I read her for her.

Right, yeah, yeah, well, you were more of a child of your time. Yeah. I suppose they would have been quite old books. I did have, I did, it's weird because I do remember thinking, wow, a lion that can talk. That's a bit of me, that. But I, I didn't, for some reason, I just, if it didn't help, Philip Pullman does very few interviews. he did one interview of Adam Buxton and he like literally lays into C.S. Lewis for about 25 minutes. And what was his issue with C.S. Lewis? I'd like to know.

He has an issue with his religious, like, intentions. And you could argue that Philip Paulman's his duck materials is maybe even like a response to line the win in a wardrobe. It's like anti-organized religion. And exactly. And if it's in response and even anti, then it is maybe a body of work that wouldn't have existed without. No, no, I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to, I don't know enough. I've literally not read or seen. No, I'm saying this to Philip Pullman, because he just doesn't know what C.S. Lewis goes to me, okay?

One of my fantasies is Philip Pullman being really rude to me. Apparently he's really moody. I love it. I want to meet him and be like, you've inspired me and be like, whatever. Do you think that that's, do you think he'd ever do something like, miss me? So he's quite busy, Philip Pullman. Yes.

Yes, he's busy. But he just finished Book of Dust, which is great. I've never read any Philip Pullman. I think it was, it's unreal. It's fantastical, which I love. I believe it was almost a premonition of mobile phones. Mobile phones? You know, like the little animal leg.

No, no, the demon's the soul. The demon is the soul. Not your phone. The demon's the soul. It's not the phone. No. It's literally the opposite of the phone. It's what we should have instead of our phone.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The demon, it's not like chat GPT, you know. And how to. A demon is a spirit guide, yeah. Oh, I love. And how do you, and you get assigned it, how? I've never read his dark materials. Everybody's born with a demon.

And the demon, while you're a child, it shapeshifts into whatever animal it needs to be in that moment. And then eventually it settles on a final form dependent on the choices you make. And what's your demon, darling? Well, people will say that it's spike just because obviously I rescue spike. and but I've now got Spike and Mimi. Yeah, but just because when I've heard before we got Mimi, I used to have Spike like off the lead and stuff. This is pre-pandemic, by the way.

Everyone's gone a bit bonkers since pandemic in terms of dogs and stuff. But yeah, like we had a bizarre bond, like kind of went through a lot together. So maybe Spike, but if I'd be a bit more fantastical, I'd like to, I'd probably say it a Fox. Okay, I know what mine is. Fox is good for you. I'm a turtle, man. Mine's a turtle. Great.

You won't, yeah, it'd be hard to get anywhere, but I guess you could make a back pat. You'd usually have a turtle if you were, like, in a sea-based. That's what I mean about final form. If you were, like, water-orientated, you might get a turtle in the stunt materials. If you were a land-based city person, morphing your demon into a turtle is, like, really impractical.

I know it's impractical, but it does speak to my soul. I also think I look like a turtle quite a lot. You think you look like a turtle. Turtle. Totally. I am so turtle, man. And I love it. I really do look like a turtle. I've got this. Has someone said that to you? No, I've told people. I've said to me, well, I look like a turtle, right? And of course, turtles are very important to my mother and I, because when we were doing the Caribbean show, we swam with turtles. And so my mom got me, my mom got me a turtle necklace to remind me to always move from courage. and then I just bought a huge massive foam turtle

for Zeddy actually the other day so I have a big turtle in my house to remind me. Love that for you. Love that for you. They move slowly but they've done it for a long time so they must know something. If you read TisDut materials and you knew what you might have, it depends on what kind of

adventures you want to go on, that's my point. You could have a bag for the turtle but like you know what happens in the series is inevitably certain demons will favor certain people because of the abilities of the demon, you know? Like one of the main characters has a snow leopard. The actual scariest demon is a golden monkey. Yeah, I bet.

And that golden monkey is on smoke. And also, yeah. And I can't sidequest this entire show to be about His Dark Materials. But the other amazing thing about it is that a person can only go so far from their demon unless they're a witch. So the demon can't go past a certain point. you hurt someone's demon, you hurt them. I remember if you hurt someone's demon, you hurt them. And that's kind of like, yeah, pushing that to its limits is pretty much the undertone of the

book. But yeah, you have these dope-ass witches like Serafino, he's a G. And their demons can just go about wherever. And so Phoebe wouldn't be able to be too far from her demon, because obviously she witch. No, no, no. Witches' demons can go wherever they want. Oh, they can be separated. Yeah, yeah, witches' demons can just, they go wherever. Witches on smoking, as that material is they're incredible. Okay, do you know, I think I might read it. I think I might read it.

I've been finishing books like I've never finished books before, Jordan. I never, my whole life, never finish a book. I just have like half-finished books surrounding me in my bags, by my bed, on the sofa everywhere. And now I'm finishing books by the week. I'm doing like one, two books, done, finished, completed. It feels like a new chapter. Nice.

bars bars I will say that I also remember that the reason I loved that series is because it was my first experience of tragedy like you're saying so like that that was there's one character that dies in that book and it tore me apart like as a child I remember vividly being up late I had a little reading light on my bookshelf I remember reading the sentence and being like and it's such a shock it was Shakespearean it wasn't like there wasn't build up there wasn't like you know I don't know it wasn't a big it was just Bang, bang. Like, life is that. Who the fuck do they kill? No, I couldn't possibly tell you, especially not if you're wanting to read. Intending to read it. Okay, great.

Now I'm going to read it panicking about every character. Okay. Well, it's like, they do a similar thing of Game of Thrones, which I think it's cool. It's like it's, it's, uh, but obviously he takes a lot of inspiration from previous writers. But yeah, listen, I agree with you, is my point. I agree with you.

People laid a foundations. We are on the giants of shoulders of giants. Yeah. And, and also this is why it's just so important. to like make things and create things and write things down. Thousand percent. Those things, like create lives for generations to come. I think that's why I got emotional because I just, this is why the show's so good.

Sorry, we will stop talking about Wanderland or move on to part two where we'll talk about violence gets women and the nuance of cancellation culture. But just to end Wanderland to really understand who these people are and they could have just done something else with their pain. I implore every each and last one of you to watch Wonderland. It's on Sky Arts. So if you've got now TV, you can watch it. If you've got Sky, you can watch it. And I think that's the only way you can watch stuff on Sky. Yeah. I think it's cool that you've got emotional thinking about the impact that Kids Books has on the world. I think that is the reason why people do anything, you know? Like everything is just the kind of bouncing of vibrations or

over the place and it's turning pain into this actually does bring me on to, what I wanted to talk about, which I've been wanted to talk about for a lot, for a while. You said we're talking about violence against women, which is funny. You kind of like, naturally what you would associate with violence and women. I actually want to talk about violent women, not violent violence against women. Oh. Why that makes me think about this thing I want to talk about the violence is because the idea that like, you know, you talk about these storytellers utilizing pain because pain exists on every level. It's unavoidable, I think, in the human experience. and that's something that unifies us all, right?

Grief unifies us all. And I wanted to ask your opinion on the conversations that we are having around violence at the moment because I feel very strongly about opposing needless violence, about trying to create shifts within people where they're not looking to, people who feel disempowered by larger society, disempowered by the story they've been told about life. And so they try and regain that power by bullying, abusing, you know, coercively controlling another person, which is largely a male thing.

We as men are the biggest victims of men. There's a lot of conversation about trying to reduce the harm towards women. And I guess like the thing that is making me what I want to bring up, which I am almost a little bit nervous about saying, because obviously it's a mainly female audience. But I worry sometimes that the way in which we talk about violence, as if not every human has the capacity for violence, might encourage a feeling of helplessness in women that I don't think, that I feel it's like by design.

That's why I get a bit like conspiracy-based, maybe not consciously designed, but in this space where people are making legitimate strategies to try and like, you know, make the society more harmonious, I very much believe, let me be clear, I very much believe in a society where women feel safe to be at home, to walk on the streets, streets to engage in new relationships and all these things I really really I'm trying to create a

world where that's more achievable but I do worry about about the conversation around violence meaning that women just feel like there's nothing they can do and and I'll add to that and that it's an inevitability well yeah which I guess it feels like it is absolutely if you turn your TV on I I've mentioned to you a few times because I have Sky and It says when I go on to like the TV guide, because I'm old school and I like the TV guide. Yeah, right. And I'd say, it happened again last night.

And I nearly started watching something. And I was like, I'm going to freak myself out. It's like, but it's just like on BBC 2 at 9 o'clock. Right. How we found this serial killer who'd killed these three girls in Wales in the 70s. Wow. And it's just like, I can't even tell you how many out of the channels is something related to the brutalization or attack.

of on women. Yeah. Through documentary, through drama, through true crime. As a woman living alone, it's fucking terrifying, even turning your TV on and looking at the TV guide. And that I do always wonder, I wanted to ask one time, I was like, should we get a TV producer or a scheduler or a commissioner to come or miss me and explain to us why the volume is so high?

Because women watch it. Yeah, but why. Why do we watch it and we watch it to protect our, I mean, sorry, I can't speak for everyone, but I watch it to protect myself. Have I said this already? Yes. No, no, a lot of women have said that to me. They watch it so they know exactly what could possibly happen.

What's the worst case scenario? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A preparation, yeah. But then the thing is, there is helplessness to it because I went for an eight-hour walk on Saturday. I went to my darling I owner's baby shower. Her baby's coming so soon. And we had a beautiful baby shower for Dunlabor at Grove. and I left the house and I turned my phone off

and I was like, I just need to walk. I'd done a lot of talking at work for four days in a row and I was like, sick of the sound of my own voice and I didn't want to speak to anyone. I just wanted to be on my own. And I had this glorious walk Jordan through Labroth Grove and then made a veil and then St. John's Wooden. I took myself to Primrose Hill and read my book

and then I went to Kentish Town, Muswell Hill. And I felt free and I'm like there looking at church gardens and, you know, plaques on walls and I'm just in my own world. And then suddenly it's 8 o'clock and it's dark and I'm in Archway. And I've always found Archway a bit booky. I just have.

And I think something happened to my mum there when she was young or something. And I suddenly was aware that I was on a really long road and then this man goes to me, he was across the street outside his house and he said, what's your name? and then what happens first for me as a woman is fear.

Tighten up, fear. The second thing they say is when you know whether you're in danger or not for me. So first is, what's your name? The second thing is whether I have to worry. And that worry isn't like, oh, I'm a bit worried. That worry is because he might rape and kill me in this street right now. He might put his hand over my mouth and drag me into a car. That's an unbelievably heavy thing to hold.

but it's very, very real. And the second thing he said was, come here. And I freaked the fuck out. And so my decision at that moment is complete fight or flight and helplessness. I do feel helpless. I don't feel safe. And it's just London on a Saturday evening at 8 o'clock. And all this man has said is, what's your name?

Come here. And I thought he could kill me. And he could. And I just walked this kind of walk that I do. And I'm sure all women have it, which is sort of like a sidewalk. so that you're still looking behind you and at the side for the whole kind of 10 minutes that this road took on and no one was coming.

And I thought, that's just life. That is just life. But then when you spoke to me about your right of passage, when we're doing rights of passage last week, and you talked about the inevitability, not inevitability, the sort of right of passage nature of being punched in the face as a man. See, I wouldn't feel that as a right of passage.

I wouldn't be like, yeah, getting punched in the face. That would feel quite like an anomaly and like something quite brutal happening to me. So I think we do both as men and women have this sense of inevitability of violence, yes. I think violence has just baked into the male experience in that way. What I think spins me out a little bit or what I'm trying to do by saying this and not annoy anyone is I'm not trying to redirect or take attention away from, like, say, an experience you just shared with me, which it sounds terrifying and I can and I you know my only way of of tapping into that would be

obviously not so much for the sexual assault but with the idea of like getting in trouble with somebody bigger than me which is which is also a possibility depending on on where I go. And also I do think when you say about the punch in the face thing I do immediately feel like it literally depends where you live because when I go up north the idea of women punching each each other in a face on the night out is really normal. Some of the girl fighters up there are fucking wild like I've heard. I had mad stories. I had my story like last month about like brutal, brutal shit. I heard about, anyway. But like, so I guess it just depends on the environment, the culture

you grow up in. But then Suleiman told me a story on the train back from Happy Place. And we were talking weirdly about if we'd ever seen someone die. And he said, I watched my friend get stabbed in the neck 10 times in front of me at a house party. I, I feel. like that's more of an experience for him rather than me. Like I just don't think, I just don't think I've ever seen anything like that. Anything like that. Well, this is what, this is why I think the conversation is fractured though. It's because like I say, men's, the first victim of men is men.

What I want is people to unify in standing against needless violence generally, right? Obviously men are the main perpetrators of especially physical violence. I mean, in my belief there's the various forms of violence, but physical violence. they're an imminent threat, right? So, but, but to dismiss the, I used to call it with my friends, I used to call it the but it's by men paradox. But like the idea that the male survivors of male violence aren't necessarily part of the conversation because they're men.

Do you know what I mean? Like men, men get assorted, men get abused, men get like, and often by the men, and also sometimes by women, you know, less commonly, but like it can happen. I've heard and seen countless examples with mums, for example, again, I'm not saying it's exclusive. mums. I've seen mums smacking their children, screaming at their children. I've heard like stories about moms like looking the other way for something extremely like, you know,

heartbreaking incident. So it's, there's like massive nuance and complexity. So I just want people to understand everyone's capacity for either direct violence or complicity in violence. I remember that story with those guys in Luton. There was a thing that, I don't know where it was in Luton. There was a uni dorms where these guys got honey trapped. This was like last year. And there, They thought these two girls were coming over. They turned up with three guys. They, like, slapped these guys about. They made them kiss each other on camera,

which I obviously don't think is demeaning. But in that particular culture, it supposedly was. They just completely embarrassed them. But the women, the girls were, they're just laughing in these boys' faces. Like, they were complicit in that, like, brutalisation of those boys. So I think sometimes for people, I don't know where Suleiman is in the conversation,

but for that level of hyperviolence to be visualised as a boy or man, like, I don't think that, like, I think Solomon's actually a thankful example of somebody who hasn't necessarily allowed that to become their identity. And I know there's another incredible man called Richie Brave who has told me similarly scarring stories and he actually makes it his life's work to try and pull boys and men away from being radicalized by those experiences and turning on the girls and women in their life and on themselves, right? Because it was ultimately an act of self-hate to push away a woman or a man and vice versa, right? So it's like, well, sorry, maybe not vice versa. But I think everybody is

I'm very hippie with this outlook, right? But my point is that sometimes those things are so normalized, boys and men carry knives because of other men. And if we can't hold space for like how that perpetual state of anxiety and fear, then it's no surprise to me that boys and men feel like they become the opposition to the conversation, even though they're the part of it. Do you know what I'm trying to say?

Yeah, definitely. But then you've also got this background energy of this kind of nuance that I feel seeps into cancellation culture. Because I was thinking about how it can mean one thing sometimes and then sometimes it kind of means something. And the cancel thing, can I just say one more thing just to land my point about the helplessness because I really want people to feel like I'm not just complaining.

The reason why I'm wanting to mention this, especially in a podcast with a massively female audience, is I follow this woman on Instagram who's a MIT teacher and she puts up all these dope videos of, of women who have learned enough in Mai Tai to sometimes overcome the freeze or flight response that naturally would occur with no scenarios, which is totally understandable.

And I feel like I think that women are truly defiant, right? Like, I think it's, again, baked into the mentality and the level of like pushback you just get from existing in this system. And so I think it's within the interest of that system for women to feel like they can't do anything. physically and that's why I'm saying. I just want to be really clear about I don't think it's a I don't think it's the answer women shouldn't have to learn how to fight women shouldn't have to protect themselves and I don't want boys to be carrying knives into school to the same extent

you know it's like a plaster and then we deal we do both things at the same time we go in and tell people or find a way for people to empower themselves in a way that isn't like in a response to the system and environment they're in and so they don't have to disempower other people and at the same time we give people a chance you know and like And there's so many stories of female warriors leading oppressed, like, rebellions, like the Haitian rebellion. Like, there's this huge, like, ferocious feminine spirit. You know, women who run with wolves, like, I don't want that to go.

Yeah. And I suppose when I turn the TV on, I'm not seeing many, many adaptations of women run with wolves. I'm seeing women are victims. Exactly. And as you say, why? Why? It's just a little whisper of like what really is the undertone here? I think what you were saying earlier does make a lot of sense.

This idea, it probably makes more sense to make women feel helpless. But you know what? It's not even like it makes sense. It's so fucking baked historically into media. And of course there are other stories, but I still can't believe the volume of those stories on TV today every single night. How is it meant to feel as a woman in this world? If that is what's on TV every night, you will be attacked, you will be raped, will be brutalized at one moment in your life. You should probably watch this so you can prepare

for it. And that's why I don't sleep with the baseball bat under my bed because I think that that is living in a world of inevitability. Any minute now, any day now's my turn. But who does it? Who does sleep with baseball vets under their bed? Men. Right. Some men. Well, it's just, it's like I say, again, it's not, I want to find connection and unity in this conversation. It's not to be like one person or one side's experiences. There's so many variables where you live, how you grew up, Who's in your family? What do you do? What's your job?

What's your history? But it's just the idea of like, is two things happening at the same time? A friend of mine and I, we talk about this. Like, it's loving to be able to defend yourself in the community.

It's not about learning something to attack someone. It's about, like right now, for example, right? We saw this video go viral last week about a reform conference. There was some protesters. And then this woman got her hair dragged,

right? This protester. Buy a Nana, by the way. Like, Nana and a couple of men and a Nana just dragging his woman's hair. So like, it's like, and on that side of the coin, I would say, like, those lot are not, and it's why those lot I mean, like, right-leaning people, they're not, like, censoring the concept of defending themselves.

That's like an open, like, let's go to the gym and learn how to fight vibe, right? So there's a part of me, which is like, yes, I believe in the world that isn't dictated by that, but to the same extent, I'm not going to sit there and allow for these people to, to, like, create like a kind of, I don't know, like a militant approach to defending their, what I believe to be disarmonious. like attempts at community, right? I want to defend my love for the earth and my love for the men in my community and children.

I want to defend that. I want to be able to defend it. That's it. Yeah, that's a fucking empowering thing to feel and to be able to say. My cousin, Sita, who I love it on my heart. Let me just shout out of Sita. She is fucking strong.

Let me let me not get. It's twisted, right? I did a job with her the other day because I didn't realize she's an aerial yoga teacher and I was doing a thing about finding peace. Is that what Cita does? Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

She's strong. And then because she's basically, my sister, like we spent our literal baby years together. When I saw her, I got so excited, I just rugby tackled her. That was like the,

that was just the first thing, like straight, just wrestling. Keats, there was a point where she spun me, right? Had my like waist between her thighs. Dude,

she could have snapped me and half. I was like, seats chill. There's people watching. Do I mean? I'm like, just people watch that, chill.

That's such, I love that. That's like such physical love. Anyone close who spends a lot of time of me I do things I can't It's actually something I have to work on No I love when you get off physical like that It's great it's like feral love

I just want that contact It's like the dogs the dogs they wrestle every morning They love each other they wrestle like I want that I want that contact Oh God you and your fucking need for touch I'm just saying like I don't understand But I feel like we would all be a little bit happier

If we could have just like If we just wrestle in the morning Yes and coming out soon an entire book about Jordan's need to explore. Sorry, nothing. He's not writing anything, actually. By my old, by my last book,

please avoid it, drugs, heartburn, breaking dogs. If 2,000 people buy it in one week, it should make secure the next book deal. Is that true? Yeah, it goes back into the bestseller list and they'll be like, oh my God, what are you writing now? And I'm like, well, actually, I'm writing

an ex-posate or the whole relationship between torture and sex. It's so interesting, but when we can talk about it, please tell me because I'm fucking dying. And it's already made me think more about said subject. Yes, well, there will be, listen, like, and there will be exploration of violence because I think in place of what they call, like, touch hunger,

a lot of men do establish, like, these other means of it, which is why a lot of women sense, like, an air of homoeroticism with a lot of this male contact sport, you know, because I feel like... Yeah, exactly. What about the formation of rugby? That is literally like, oh, we can't fuck each other. so let's just do this.

Yeah, let's get really big and just grapple. Also, I find it hilarious that BJJ, which is like, Brazilian Zuzitsu, that's like one martial art that's been almost, almost like gentrified and made into a right-leaning idea because like... What, Jiu-Jitsu has not? 100% has. I mean, it's actually, to give an example, Russell Brown was going on about about two years.

Joe Rogan, etc. But what I find so funny about that is that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is like one R-form that is specifically on the ground grappling. Like, like other things, like my tie is impact, right? My tie's like, I was in urban craft McArthur a bit and that was like to do with like real life situations.

Like what do I do if someone comes to the other knife? That was something I'm like trying to learn how to deal with, right? But like, but Jiu Jitsu is literally once we're on the floor who can like choke the other person out, wrap them in each other's limbs. And I've told you I have a personal relationship with Jiu Jitsu because Phoebe's mom, it became a jihitsu teacher

when we were like nine and she taught jiu-jitsu at Kensington Sports Centre with Lloyd Cleo Sol's dad actually Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait Hold on no no this is fucking insane So Lloyd doesn't use to manage PlayStation There's a skate park in West London

He might have done some PlayStation managing as well Is he tall and mixed race? Yes what do you mean our friend Ruby We grew up we went to primary school with Ruby and her dad's Lloyd and her sister's Cleo. What do you fucking mean? Lloyd is Cleo Sol's dad. Do you understand this guy was around my house so often when I was a kid?

He was like in my mum's band. Yeah, of course he would have been. Yeah, Lloyd was like the guy from West London. Yeah, that's Cleo Sol's dad. No, no, no, no, listen, I was in, I was in EMDR the other day. Yeah. Reliving this one memory that of like a real discomfort that was like to do with this is so bad to just say flippantly

but we'll talk about another time but it's to do with like the partner of a guy used to babysit me right nothing, it's nothing extreme before people go there but it's like it's enough for me to be passionate about like protecting

the people involved around that time Ruby came to my flat and I remember it was my first experience of like genuine like profound fear because I was in my bedroom

and she turned the light off in the room and then she like crawled on the floor and then went boo like asked me as a kid because she was older than me right yeah she was much older she was like six seven years older yeah chill out she's my age

because I remember going to PlayStation and she was like an incredible rollerblader no yeah she was actually and I remember watching our PlayStation and being like oh my god that girl is so cool but there's a few of them Ruby 1,000% Ruby I've like named characters in books Ruby

maybe I but wait we have to double check these are all the same people Lloyd was this great man who had been through a lot. I don't know whether he told you about his childhood, but he would always tell us. I think he was like adopted. I didn't know him, Keith. I was like six. He was just like your mum's mate.

Yeah, he turned up late to a gig once and my mum was angry of him and then they fell out. Yeah, because he was Tessa's best mate, right? Like best friend. And then he was a jihitsu teacher and he kind of led Tessa into jiu-jitsu and changed all of our lives. Yeah, and then his daughter's Cleo's soul. This is a lovely way to end. Look at the magic of conversation. Hey, this has blown my mind.

Wait, no, I'm ringing my mum. Hey, George. Hey, mum, you got two seconds. Sorry, I'm doing, miss me again. I just need to ask you something real quick. You see, when I'm a kid, you know, you had the guy Lloyd in your band. Yeah. Okay, is he also a jiu-jitsu teacher?

Yeah. Right. And he had a daughter called Ruby. Yeah. Do you know who his other daughter is? No. Cleo Sol. You're fucking joking.

No. I'm not joking. Well, that's blown my mind. It's blown my fucking mind. McKee has just told me this on the podcast. Can you say hi to Emma from me? Anyway, Mackeya says hello and look. Listen, Mom, love you. I'll chat to you later on, yeah.

Bye, I'm going to be. In a bit. Bye, bye, bye, bye. She's so sweet. What did she say when you called her? Hi, Georgie. Geordie. Geordie.

Did you say that? I can't remember. Do you still get called Jordy? Why am? Those people call me Jordy. J. McKenzie calls me J-Lord Oh by the way

I'm going to Margate this weekend I'm in Margate this weekend Are you at that I finally got it right Jordan That is where you live Oh yeah yeah yeah I've got a house day Yeah yeah yeah I always be like

Oh I'm going to Hastings And you're like I don't fucking live in Hastings Why are you in Margate though I'm doing an event in Margate This weekend Yeah yeah on Saturday No way I'm coming Saturday

I'll see you I'll be with Tracy Emmyn And I'll see you I'll see you I'll see you on Saturday. No, I won't. She might, I mean, I doubt it. I do love Tracy.

I do want to go see the Tracy space, though. I really want to see, like, the school and the whole, like... Carl Friedman will have something dope in the gallery, too. Shout out, Rob. Oh, Carl Friedman. They email me all the time. Is that my Margate hook up? Okay.

Yes, in Margate, yeah. Oh, my God, Jordan, this is so fun. I'll see you in Margate on Saturday. Yeah, you will. You literally will. Yeah, crazy. Hey, let's hang out, not with mics. Thanks for listening to Miss Me.

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