Miss Me? - Be Water

Episode Date: February 5, 2026

Miquita Oliver and Jordan Stephens discuss the evolution of Harry Styles, and football.This episode contains very strong language and adult themes. Credits: Producer: Natalie Jamieson Technical Producer: Will Gibson Smith Assistant Producer: Caillin McDaid Production Coordinator: Rose Wilcox Executive Producer: Dino Sofos Commissioning Producer for BBC: Jake Williams Commissioners: Dylan Haskins & Lorraine Okuefuna Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

This episode of Miss Me is the 189th episode of Miss Me. And it still has adult themes and very strong language. But today, loads and loads of chat about Harry Styles. Hello. Hello. Let's, what's the word, orrate? Is it orate when you're like an orator? What are you talking about?

To orrate is to speak. Are you trying to find a fun way of saying, should we get to talk with each other? So you're trying to find it interesting. synonyms or like matching. Yes, synonyms I like. Let's converse. Yes, let's converse. Let's, or some people say conversate, which I don't think is actually a word.

Yes, go on Natalie. Oh. Let's orate at each other. That's a pompous speech. And that wouldn't really work. How would you like to begin conversing? Should we talk about Harry Styles? Yes, why not?

He's coming out another album. Oh, is that what he's got? Oh, he's got another album. Okay, that's what's going on. You don't even know why Harry Stiles has popped back into the public consciousness. I really haven't been on the internet for about 10 days. Okay. Well, yeah, he's got another album out.

Well, it's not out yet. It's coming out. I think it's called something about disco. Like, Kiss sometimes. Oh, yeah, kiss all the time. Disco occasionally is the name of the album. The fourth coming album. You hate the title?

I hate that. Yeah. Great. Good start. Have you heard the song, though, aperture that he's dropped? Um, no. It's fantastic. Is it?

Yes. For me, anyway. I don't know what pop fans will feel because I know Harry's obviously had a very interesting journey but like this is my shit like it's not even I mean obviously the title of the album

suggests disco but this is like kind of trancy like yeah like clubby tripped out psychedelic vibes kind of like he was hinting out with the last record

but this is like going all the way in I love it and I love the tone of his voice I think he's brilliant I think he's a brilliant artist this one I mean Harry is still such a massive I think he gave that album of the year at the fucking Grammys. Do you know what tickets he sold for his tour?

You haven't seen, have you? No. What, like 250,000? It would be way beyond, hold on. More than quarter of a million people. I'll show you. Makita, he is playing 30 shows at Madison Square Garden. Oh, Jesus.

That's like Billy Joel style. Dirty. He's so big in America. No, but I always forget that. He's so big in America. 12 Wembley stadiums is a joke. Mekita. Jesus.

It's record breaking, Jordan. He's beating Coldplay. This is like arguably top five biggest men in the world. Let's hear this new bloody song. Aperture, yeah? I love it. You know what? He's at his best when he's doing it a little bit like the 1975.

Sorry, sorry. Let's be honest. It is a bit the 1975. It is a big. It is a big. Matt, he wishes. He wants. wishes he was Harry Stiles.

You think Matt E. He wishes he was Harry Stiles. I disagree. He wishes he was Harry Stiles. I disagree. Literally. I disagree. Miquita, this fucking guy. No, I can't have this.

This guy, yeah. I can't have this. He wishes, man. Honestly, like, firstly, he's not got a nice of voice as nice a voice as Harry. Secondly, he's made, he's made, I don't even, listen, I'm not even trying to hate. Don't want your buddy. Yeah, yeah, it's cool. Sorry, as you know, I'm a huge this, 975.

But it's like Kauaii. It's like he's made it like, you know, like a little bit like, maybe it's like Japanese coded like the influence. He's like all his influences, a bit cutesy. Like, and then he's like, you know, this like challenging edgy. It's like cool. And listen. He's your worst.

It's cool. No, it's cool. It's got a place. It's got a place. But it's like I just feel like Harry is just it goes to. He might have Harry on lyrics for like over the course of albums. But like with 975's big songs, I don't feel that. I don't feel it.

No, no, but I'm talking about... Aperture I can feel. As it was, I can feel. Yeah, but I'm not talking about chocolate. I'm talking about third album, the Jesus tune. I just don't think it's original. If I believe... Oh my God, there was some tunes on that album. I might listen to that today.

Fair enough. Fair enough. You know what? I'm being a hypocrite because I don't even listen to... You know what? Harry, the evolution of Harry, Jordan knows this, but we're telling the world now, is...

I think we are a direct part of his story. He might... agree. But I think we're a direct part of his story and his journey into God, the king that he is now. And let's just say, one direction have been through a lot. It's not been an easy journey for those five young men who became so incredibly famous and successful so quickly. And I think there was a pivotal moment. And it was a social thing. socially, Harry started hanging out with a very different group of people in London to, let's say, a Nile or a Louis or a Liam or a Zane. Everyone went down their own roads and Harry's was deeply in the pocket of Nicholas Grimshaw because we just thought he was so handsome and so charming and we were like, let's make him our best friend. As soon as he stepped out of X Factor, we were like, right, we're taking these scratches.

And I remember once we were in a car and he sang a lot. to like a boys to men's song and I was like Harry you can fucking sing like R&B songs Harry can really really sing and he's never really done that I don't know whether he's doing it in this trance moment but I truly understand that he is actually

a really gifted what's hilarious is that you're saying this third album this is three albums deep now and you are on the podcast saying I don't know turns out Harry Stards might be quite talented wait wait wait you just said

I don't know if Harry's shown the world that he can sing Because I don't think those albums show him singing well That's just him being a pop star Oh, it's fourth. Jesus, it's his fourth album. Is it? He's not even prolific though because he has taken kind of breaks Wait, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

Oh, there was that circusy one. Oh, yeah. Okay. What was the first one? Harry's stars, yeah. But like what was like the big single? Sign of the Times. Oh, no, I didn't like that song.

Did you not? I'm telling you, it's a great song. I need him to sing some R&B. I really wanted to cover some boys. Oh, wait. Makita, sorry, I love you to pieces. You've literally not listened to his music.

It's mental. You just listen to one song then and went, oh, he is singing. Babe, he's singing. I'm not going to throw on a Harry Styles album. You should. No, listen to what I'm saying. The last album is fucking sick.

The lyrics I felt could have been a little bit better, but I don't think you actually are realising the shit he's doing with Kid Harpoon. It's actually, it's genuinely really interesting. I know he's working with Kid Harpoon still. Okay, I will. I'm sure he's dying for me to listen to it.

Like the sushi restaurant song that he made. Like, it's bizarre in the most incredible way. It ended up with all these adverts because it sounded like some bizarre song out of like the 70s. I like bizarre. It is bizarre. It's bizarre. See, I know you don't listen to his fucking last album. It's crazy.

Okay. All right. It's a vibe, man. The watermelon one. Yeah, great song, in which he's singing. Yeah, but I don't. I think he's still being kind of like pop star singing. I'm talking about he should cover some boys to men.

What a mother of sugar isn't isn't an easy song to sing? Let me just fucking hear this. It's actually not. He sings the verses in full voice with a beautiful tone. Give me strawberries. I'd have to go into my head voice to even hit that. Anyway. Oh, he's not so good.

Tisler Sunday. Harry. Oh, gosh. Yeah, no, I still fancy him. It's ridiculous. And then we had this dinner once. It was a grimmy and someone else Through a Brit Awards pre-Brit Awards dinner

I don't know why And sounds like right And I was 28 since like 13 years ago So Harry was probably like You know 19 And I sat next to him at the dinner And I was very like God everyone's so gasped about Harry

And he was so he charmed the pants off me Not quite literally Not literally But he's the most charming bastard Yeah Just can he do the edit Can you just do a slow panning like the office on my face is in response.

Are you telling me that you haven't thought about what it would be like to kiss him? No, I don't actually feel any sexual attraction to Harry, but I do find him incredibly charming. I really do. And not only have I seen him charm a woman ridiculously quickly to the point of almost existential crises on my part, I just like, how is it even fucking possible? But also, no, but I'm actually now, it's so interesting you say that we were part of, I don't feel part of his, um, ascent into, like, artistry really at all. But more recently, I'd say in the last year, uh, maybe just a bit longer, I feel more part now of his process because

the choices he's made recently, I'm really into. And he's gone on his own personal journey around, you know, sobriety, what other, other things like that, you know, and I guess, is he, is he sober? No, I don't know. I just, I know he's exploring these ideas, you know, I don't, I don't know if he is at all. But it was just when I spoke to him last year and I just felt, you know, with people, you meet people where they're at, you know. And for whatever reason, where I was at and where he was at when we spoke, felt more aligned than all the other times we had bumped into each other or gone out and got drunk when we were younger. And I thought that was really cool. So we've been spoken more in the last year, little text here and there and that. And he was checking out my book, which is obviously really cool.

And so, and then I saw him at Glastonbury. just bumped into him. Glastonbury was crazy. He was just walking about with Kit Harping. God, I don't know how he got through Glastonbury. He was just bowling around, honestly. He's like, he does that quite a lot. I think because he's such a superstar, I think,

by the time people even realize that he is just walking around, he's gone. Yeah, he's already out. But these bonds with Harry Stiles were cemented in the hallowed streets of Soho. Yeah, not for me, but yeah. I was around. Don't get me what I was about. Yeah, I was like, you were fucking there. There, yeah, I was there, but I was like on my own fucking mess.

I don't know. I wasn't directed. Do you see how I dressed back then? I wasn't encouraging Harry's fucking artistry. I was in like, probably still in Top Man, like slim fit fucking jeans. Eek. No, but what I mean is because I definitely wasn't part of his artistry and I don't think Grimmie was either.

But it's interesting what happened for Harry socially, I think changed the kind of artist he was through Grimmy. And, you know, Harry can contest this. I'm sure he thinks there were other roots. as well. But from where I was standing, Grimmy was a huge route for him to the art world,

to other older people who have been in the game longer who could give him advice about what it's like to suddenly become extremely famous. And I think he... Why don't give me any of that shit? Yeah, what was your life?

What, was I? Did I have done a lot of it look forlorn enough? I think, yeah, I think you... Do you know what I mean? I wasn't bringing, I wasn't giving English rose. Is that what it was? I was giving confused mess.

wasn't, I was unsalvageable, is that what it is? Left me to my own devices. Took me another fucking nine years. Thanks guys. Appreciate it. But it's lovely, you know what? It's lovely to see him in his 30s now and, you know, he's obviously very, he seems very in love with Zoe.

And who isn't? He does feel like, yeah, he seems like he can get anyone he wants. He feels like he literally goes, in him, mini, my, anymore, you know. Yeah. I'd probably do that for us Harry Stiles as well. Well, but, you know, it's like the Johnny Mitchell thing. I always go back to it, isn't it? It's like, I think Harry's probably at a point where he wants to start meeting versions of himself beyond, you know, hopping and skipping around, you know.

Yeah. Joni Mitchell has made it one of the things she said, changed my life forever. And she just basically made a point about, you know, fleeting relationships are really fun and really cool. But we end up basically engaging with like a curated version of ourselves. And actually, this hardest thing about being in a long-term partnership, kind of any kind is you end up meeting of parts of you that are different. to contend with. That's the real, and that's where real growth

and maturity happens, I think is in tandem with someone else. That's what someone told me yesterday about being a parent. They said, Yeah, you see the real you, man. And Phoebe said,

it's like living again. And I was like, oh, that's nice you get to sort of like write all the wrongs. And she was like, no, it's like you start to see parts of who you are come up in your children.

Yeah. Oh, seeing it. Yeah. Well, that and also, I think parenting just in general is going to bring out like, who are you in a moment of crisis rather than who are you with a plan and a podcast, you know what I mean?

Plan and a podcast. That's my life. I got a plan. I got a podcast. No, I don't even mean necessarily having a podcast. I mean just like listening to one. You know, you go out with the day and it's like, all right, I'm going to go for a cup of coffee and I'm going to, you know, this is me.

I'm talking more about me, to be honest. You know, and I'm going to listen to how, you know, the neuroscience of the front limbic system contributes to the, I'll later, you know, and then like, fast forward 10 years and some fucking two-year-olds just screaming in my fucking face. And I just become like, and the. And athole. Do I mean? It's just like...

Yeah. What is the actual Joni Mitchell lyric? It's not a lyric. Oh, done. All right, I'll get this. Because I love Joni Mitchell. She's one of the greatest lyricists of all time. Yeah, I've been trying to find a good documentary about her.

Oh, I watched a fantastic Bruce Lee documentary yesterday called Bewater. Bewater. Bwater is another one of my favorite coats. If you could be anything... Chucka-Cow. If you could be anything, be water. Now, can you tell me what he means? Because I was saying it to Lil.

like last year on Miss Me and I was like, be water and she's like, okay, like how? And I said, uh, be still like water. And she was like, but water's sometimes not still. And I was like, oh yeah, let me go, let me check what Bruce Lee was talking about. No, he means the fact that water, sorry, go on.

You tell me, yeah. No, no, you say, you say, please explain, yeah. Well, how I perceived it was he just saying that water is arguably the most adaptable, it's like adaptable, interchangeable, you know, like it moves around objects, It can overcome objects. It can shift form, change state.

Like it's, I think the point is like that is how to get through life is to be adaptable. Adaptable and agile. And he said, get to a place of peace where you have full detachment. Detachment from your idea of self. Detachment of your idea of, you know, what you think makes you happy or what makes you sad. It's just detachment from all this and just flow. Be water, my friend. Yeah, yeah, we'll call the episode B Water, my friend.

I think it's up to us to continue the teachings of Bruce Lee. Yeah, I mean, what a G, unreal. The whole Johnny Mitchell quote is really long, so I'm not going to read it all out. But there is one specific two lines, which kind of sums it up, which he said, if you want endless repetition, see a lot of different people. If you want infinite variety, stay with one.

Why does that make me want to cry today? I think, but what I think, if I'm to apply a slightly modern lens is that I think all of the mess we find ourselves within love, right, is an attempt for us to control the uncontrollable, right? It's the attempt to us to box and define and create. Obviously we need boundaries,

but even boundaries, I think we need to remember that we are people, we can apply within a partnership, our own specific rules, shapes, boundaries. We don't have to be constantly ruled by like an echo of theology or religion. or like the memory of our parents or any of this stuff. And I think that's what we forget. So for me, I've always believed in partnership.

I really think there's a beautiful thing about two people from wherever just maintaining. You know what I mean? Just maintaining throughout. Like, that is really, really like incredible. And I do think it does test this up. And I do think a lot of work gets done. And it doesn't mean forever, forever, but like, you know, obviously that's the goal. But it is a beautiful way to go through life.

Nana said to me that her and Cameron feel like war buddies. Exactly. See? They said it. I don't even know they said that. Because it is, because it is, there is like, there's this one thing I learned in one of my many courses and retreats is that, you know, there's different stages to love. And the final stage, through one particular framework of thinking, and the final stage is something called passionate friendship.

And supposedly, if you stay with a single person for like over 20 years, 25 years, your brain like just emits a constant, constantly low supply of oxygen. So you just like, you just have this kind of serenity that like... So just a little bit high and buzzy forever. That's perfect. Which is why when people, you know, you get really sad cases where someone's partner dies when they're old and then the other person just dies. Part of that supposedly is the brain stops this supply of like serenity.

So you're just done. Oh, I don't know. I don't think that can cause death. But I just feel like it is all contributes to like the... Whatever it is. We're saying this because we're, yeah, we're discussing... With Harry, you can look at it through the lens of like, wow, I mean, he must have heard so many stories and engaged with the energy of like all these women from different, you know. Yeah, this is what I mean.

I quite like how Harry dates. I love that he dated someone like Olivia Wilde who was older and directing him in a project. And they were together a few years and she had kids. And then to go out with someone like Taylor Russell, who's like a sort of young, enjeune, interesting, very, very talented actor. I mean, Zoe Kravitz just made sense. It was like, ah, yeah, of course, of course. Let's have a little breaky-break. We're just a little secy-sec.

Welcome back to Miss Me. You know, I really, really fancy. What is his name? The guy from... Don't say Ryan Reynolds. No, I hate Ryan Reynolds's face. Jason Segal. Jason's...

Oh my God, the guy from... I love you, man. Yes. That is hilarious. That is... I'm forgetting. Barre Marshall. Hilarious.

That is a thing that's entered your brain. I really fancy. Really? Yeah. To the point where I was like double checking who's dating and he's dating some like

idiot Canadian dancer. Do you have a picture of your biological father on hand? That's so funny. I talked to my biological father yesterday. My biological father. My biological father. My brother.

And this is my biological dad. It was really good. We talked about love actually. And he was amazing. And I was like, God, what an opportunity. I never thought I'd have my dad in my life. Never mind being able to talk to about love and life. Wow.

I don't have a picture of my daddy. Actually, I do because it came up yesterday. For the listeners, McKee is currently going through her photo role. I'm very excited to see this. Well, I'm assuming she's gone on WhatsApp actually to get his WhatsApp picture at probably. Oh, there it is. Go on. Oh, you can't really see his face.

I know. My big white father. I of course also have a great stepfather called Garfield And I was with Garfield And Mom all weekend Because me and The Great The greatest Is that what you think about Garfield?

I love Garfield What are you talking about man What that is some sort Honestly like Just what again The qualities I look for in human beings You know Just like he's got him

He's not perfect But he's got him You know curious This is what I mean You never know what's gonna happen in life Also he owes me a fiver He has a lot of people About a fiver

So for context, for context to everybody. I want to just tell the story because just in case people need further understanding. So I saw one comment actually asking how me and you knew each other so well. So one of the other ways in which me and Miquita's lives have crossed. In fact, I can even tie in the greater miss me kind of world where at Cordy House, which was a spot that Garfield momentarily had some control over in Shortwich. He used to run these parties. I was young and I would work in the, I'll do the cloak room.

and you get like a tenor for the night or something. He also got me in his street team to put stickers up around London for an artist that he was managing called Bobby Craig. Yes, I did do street team stuff. Bobby Craig Street. And he didn't pay me, right? That's the thing.

But also at the Cordy House thing, what's really funny is that was, there was one moment I remember so vividly unless my brain, my imagination is just taking it elsewhere where I couldn't find one of the doorway. It wasn't even Corley House. It was when he was doing something

maybe near Village Underground. And I couldn't find the door. And suddenly, Alfie fell backwards out of the door and I was like oh that's Alfie Allen like sweet I must be where it is and I kind of just walked it

Yeah yeah location found There we are Right Alvi yeah Alfie fucks falling out of the front door Yeah that sounds like that sounds like But I had a met Alfie that point So I didn't know I just knew of Alf So it was just like that was

Yes no I'm so lucky I'm telling you Be careful of the story you tell yourself Because you never know what's happening in life and when I was young I was like I don't have a dad. Everyone else has dads. I don't have a dad. Now I have two. Yeah, which is beautiful. And something I really promote, by the way, you know, obviously this is quite an emotionally

complex space in which this has happened. However, that concept, I think, should just be live forever. My dad was doing his best, you know, it was mainly me and my mum. But also in that time, when my dad wasn't there or whatever, I was, and I was around Keynes, I felt like Aymann was another dad to me, you know, and I loved that. Clearly, I definitely took a bit of Aeman when I needed a dad. And that was like such, that was huge. A lot of big memories I have as a child was from having, you know,

he really actually sat me down and like spoke to me about shit, which is like fucking cool. But that's what's great about our family is that everyone helps raise all the kids a little bit. A little bit, yeah. At different times. Well, we did something very beautiful as a family. My mom finally got a big house a few years ago. My nan moved in with her and my mom and my stepdad and all the dogs.

Like the day that she got the house. They've all lived there together for three years, nearly. But no one ever really goes in Nanny's room, and Nanny's very private about her room. And then the other day I went in, I was like, this isn't, this is not how we're running this, Nanny. You can't live like this. So it felt really good to go over there and do something about it

because she's 89 years old, and she wouldn't have even had the physical strength to have sorted her room out like we could. We got the youngans in to clear Nanny's room proper to give her a much better living, existence which my mum's been trying to give her for years but she wouldn't let my mom in her room. So to go through all of her things and see, you know, I found diary entries from 1967 where she's like, just went to see Jeanette. Jeanette's moving to Toronto. That's my Aunt Jeanette who died

last year at like 85. Yeah, that shit's wild. I found that after my grand died. It was fucking nuts. Like you say, I found that after my grand died. Yeah, she had like exercise books with like my family tree and shit. Yeah. And you're like, oh my God. Letters from my grandfather who I never met. Wow. Yeah, it's deep. Grandparents are great at keeping things. Do you know what I found? I found my Euro Disney pass. When I went to Euro Disney in like 94,

Nanny kept it. It's so cool, though. I just put it on my altar. Anyway, it was a beautiful thing to do. I'm going to do a Makita segue here, and I can't wait, because this is your expertise. One of my favorite aspects of Garfield

is not only his, obviously, like, desire to bring people together and, like, share cross-cultural information, which I find fascinating. But he is also just like, he's a black man with big dreadlocks and he doesn't conform to the traditional ideas of what a man should be in capitalist patriarch,

which I love. And this is where the two conversations tie in, right? Because another reason why Harry Stiles is interesting and worth discussing is because how he presents has challenged, it's actually odd how much Harry Stiles has challenged especially, well, I would say especially men, but then I just think actually just traditionally minded people in terms of like what's appropriate for a male start.

He's been accused of all sorts. He's been accused of appropriation, queer baiting. He's been accused of like wearing women's clothes for the sake of attention. And then also the funny thing with Harry is, you know, he has this, he lives this kind of dual reality where men, I think, will be conditioned to see some kind of status in the fact that Harry's able to like harness the attention of sought after women. So that codes as like a,

that codes in this fucking society, which we need to change, but that codes in the male experience as a status thing. You know, wow, women want how he styles. But then when he dresses in women's clothes, then those same men struggle.

Yes, I bet. Right. Which is, I love, by the way. I love this stuff. It's just clothes. Like,

I can't just clothes. It's just nail varnish. Like, it does not matter. It's just nail varnish. Relax. I mean, Garfield gets a manicure more often than me.

It's a really important part of his, you know, enjoyment of looking after himself and feeling, looking the way he wants. Like, but yes, that was a great segue. Thank you. That was a very good. Because there's some interesting stuff going about on the internet.

And it was evolving from our conversation when we're researching about Harry and about how he tests the boundaries of sexuality and wherever else. And it reminded me of this, I don't know, it was like, I saw a clip of a clip. So I saw like a clip of people

reacting to a clip. And in this clip, if it's to be believed, there's a group of boys who are gay saying that they are turning, they're turning away from, it's actually such a head fuck. They are refusing to act in inverted commas gay through the lens in which we see gayness. Yes. The genesis of this of this categorization, you know, there really was actually like, the idea of being straight coded and actually misogynistic was quite tied into. some of the gay experience, which I learned a lot about when doing Mr. Sloan

and doing the play, that, you know, whether it's out of shame or whether it's out of a desire to, like, maintain space in the man box. You know, a lot of these gay men would pride gayness as almost the ultimate man thing because it involved no women.

Like, you know, like, well, quite women are completely taken out of the equation. Completely. There's nothing. It's like, and so I think what's mad is we're now in a space where the male, straight male experience that touches on,

these confusing elements, a lot of male sport seems quite homerotic, a lot of, like, you know, fighting seems coded with, with, like, desires to just be touched. But then now you have these boys who say they're gay and that's, you know, great, but they're saying they're acting like they're not. That's fascinating to me. As, like, as a recent evolution. And it's either really awful and misogynistic,

or it's nearer towards men having some kind of fluidity in their sexual experience, which... Wouldn't that be interesting? I was talking to Seb about it. Seb is one of my best friends, one of my oldest friends, and him and his boyfriend, you know, live quite a nice existence in Islington. But they, Seb said to me, it's a very real reality that they live in where there are still places they feel uncomfortable about holding hands and being a couple.

I was like, you're fucking joking. What, in today's London? And Seb was like, absolutely. Yeah, it's worth. That, I think, we are experiencing a rising, like, regressive ideas. So I wouldn't be surprised if it felt more tense out there. I fucking hate that. Don't worry, there's always the football

because I went to the football. Go on. And it really is such an emotional place. It's just like, this is where a lot of men come to field things, for sure. 100%. And it was a fucking great game. And I took, do you know, Graham, who went out with mum years ago? He's really good friends with Aymann.

No, but... He lives in New York. I do miss the name, Graham. Yeah. I don't need baby Graham's. And I don't like the way American say it. Do they say Graham? Graham.

Graham. They say Graham. Like Graham. Oh, my God. I love Graham Norton. Yeah. Your American accent. Oh, my God.

I love Graham Norton. I can't do Norton. Norden. I love Graham Norton. Makita, don't take the Mick out of my L.A. fucking sunshine vibe on my American accent. I really like my voice from America. Mekita.

That's nice. But anyway, yeah, I went to the football. I went to the Arsenal game. I took Graham and his son, Che. Che is 50. about to be 15, the biggest Arsenal fan lives in New York and has never been to a football game. So I showed him what was up and he had the best time.

Arsenal Women's won the Club World Cup yesterday. Just anyone's interested. They beat Corinthians. But I haven't been to a football game in ages, and it reminded me why I love this country. I'm sorry to be a... Yeah, well, just I guess if I was to just for the sake of like counter-discussion, you need to go to one where you lose.

Oh, don't worry. I've been to QP enough with Garland. I've done that. The energy can shift. I was like, back to emirates. The celebratory aspect of football is, can be transcendent. Like, it can be a really, really unreal experience. It's a shame that there's another extremity of it.

Do you know what it is? I think it's something about the stadium. I was thinking about it and I was like, this is just exciting and stadiums are exciting. And how many people are emirates do you do? Like 60,000 or something. 60,000, 60,000. So if you're going to be in an atmosphere like that,

with 60,000 people, that's never not going to be exciting. And it just reminded me that there are things that are like all around me that I love. I'm just not doing enough. I need to go to the football more, basically. I hear that. And obviously football and the world of football have historically don't have the most open arms for queer life. There were many rainbow armbands for a while. You know, they're kind of like consumer, you know, as with many like kind of movements, you know,

it can get commercialized. But yes, that is. probably a really good way of tying in your friend's feeling of the fact that yes things have changed laws have changed and there's generally more places of acceptance but how can the biggest sport on the planet like how can there be one one professional footballer is there one one professional footballer called jake daniels who came out he pays for blackpool or something like that. He is the only, oh, sorry, let me not get too extreme.

I might be another person in Australia. By the way, just to specify, it's all like the men's game. But I think to, I think just largely speaking, in terms of the mainstream known, huge, massive teams, World Cup, Premier League, whatever, all these, like, no. And you know they are. Not one. You know that there's going to be multiple gay men. So that shows that even with all this push forwards, there still is.

I would assume the reasons, and I'm sure Jake Daniels would be really well equipped to talk about this, but if that became part of, I don't know, a chant or whatever, like the idea that homophobia could easily just become a part of a reason why your team's dislike. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, it is wild, man. It's amazing for Jake Daniels, like that, to be the only one.

That's a lot. Yeah. And to still be courageous enough. He's wicked, man. I met him. I did a campaign of him once. It's really cool. And it's also not just football.

I'm trying to think. I don't know any tennis players who are out. I don't know any rugby players. You know what? I think rugby, I feel like rugby there's one well-known rugby player. Yeah, but exactly, one-of-one. It's all very one-of-one.

But rugby, listen, I don't want to even open this box, but if I'm just basing my world view on things I've heard, like... What shit goes down in rugby? Look, I've heard that public schooling and rugby and big men touching each other. I think there's, you know, I feel like there's perhaps some hidden fluidity. in that space.

Like, I've been told it happens, but I can't be, you know, I can't be that it's just hearsay. Okay. All right, well, it's been lovely. I need to talk Tuesday. I don't know where the hell we went, but we definitely talked about Harry Stiles

and that was on the list. Can I ask you a random question before you finish? Yeah. Have you ever kissed a girl? No, but all right, now with it, have you? I mean, yes. I feel like I've seen you.

Obviously. Yeah. Exactly. I'm looking for you with that. Are you ever done fun time? No, I've never really been attracted to women like that. Tall Phoebe, my friend who is queer, says to me all the time, just try it, you'll like it.

I'm like, it's not for me. If you could be a man, would you? Yeah, but only for the day. Not for life? No, I wouldn't want to be a man for life. Why? I actually think it's... I know, see, I knew this is good at.

I don't think it's natural to feel as entitled as so many men do, or something like that, or powerful. I feel like I find it uncomfortable to, I don't know, feel like I run the world or something. I'm so used to the fight. I'm so used to the fight of being a woman. I probably find it quite uncomfortable with that, taken away. Not that every man is empowered.

Of course not. Depends what kind of man I was, I suppose. An empowered one, I don't think so. I think you've got to fight for that feeling, not just have a dick. Love it. What would you do with the day? You're still you, though. But you're just a man?

Probably, I'd like to have sex with a woman and see what that feels like as a man. It's not weird. It's not weird. So I would like to know, well, it's like to have a penis and to have sex with a woman. Yeah, I would like to know that.

I really think we should... I really think we should end this episode. All right. Thank you so much, Mekito. It's been lovely. All right. We'll see you guys for listen, bitch, which is...

Bullying. Fucking, it's yours. You've pushed for this whole bullying. I'm worried it can't take us to enough places and it's going to be really depressing. But... I'll see you on Monday. See you there.

See you there. Go on. Thanks for listening to Miss Me. This is a Percephonica production for BBC Sounds. Ever wondered what's really going on behind the biggest celebrity scandals. From Justin Baldoni versus Blake lively to Kim Kardashian's sex tape lawsuit to Brigitte McCron fighting claims she was born a man. These stories dominate your feeds, but what's the truth?

That's where our podcast, Fame Under Fire, comes in. I'm Anishima Tandadowity, and each week we dig deep into the legal battles and controversies everyone's talking about, with expert analysis and exclusive scoops. New episodes of Fame under fire drop every week. Listen now and subscribe on BBC Sounds.