Miss Me? - Birth Yourself… with Zawe Ashton

Episode Date: July 24, 2025

Miquita Oliver and Zawe Ashton discuss entering their 40s, motherhood and the power of the patriarchy. This episode contains very strong language and adult themes. Credits: Producer: Flossie Barratt Technical Producer: Will Gibson Smith Assistant Producer: Caillin McDaid Production Coordinator: Rose Wilcox Executive Producer: Dino Sofos Assistant Commissioner for BBC: Lorraine Okuefuna Commissioning Editor for BBC: Dylan Haskins Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. This episode of Miss Me contains very strong language, adult themes and the wonderful Zowie Ashton. I think all these things have partied together before. It's Zowie Bloody Ashton! My sister, my homegirl. What you said on Instagram the other day, like obviously when we do Miss Me together, which is what's happening

today, welcome to Miss Me, very special episode. I feel blessed and I actually have missed you. Oh my god that works really well. It works well, I think we've left enough time finally for us to do this together and I genuinely have missed you so I'm on theme and brand. Yeah on theme. Last time I saw you I left you on the streets of Lambert Grove drunk as a skunk. The mean streets. Mean streets of the electric on Port Bellarode. No but I loved what you wrote yesterday. I thought it was lovely. You know when we're doing Miss Me we have a clip to put up to say like, this is what our Listen Bitch theme is. Put mine up and then Zowie said, sitting in softness.

Sitting in softness with Sistar, Meketa, all of us. I was like, we're going to fucking church tomorrow. I loved that. I just loved that. I was like, yeah, I feel like I'm about to enter softness. You always make me feel quite soft. Oh, Keats. Well, sitting in softness is really how I'm coping with the world at the moment. How pregnant are you?

I mean, if I make a dash to the door suddenly. Are you that pregnant? Well, you go into the window. When you're in the window, then you're in the window. The window of any... It could happen at any time. Anything could happen. I don't think that will happen today. But it'd be such good...

It'd be such good... I don't want... I dare to use the word content, but it'd be such a beautiful, a life-affirming moment if you had to leave this episode to go have a kid. It would be an exclusive.

It would be a great clip for Will. I really love that. I was trying to think about, Zari Ashton, how we actually met. Yes, it's a good thing to talk about. Can I sip coffee on the podcast? Yeah, I've got tea, I've got lemon and honey. What have you got? What kind of coffee have you got?

Nutritious. It's just decaf. Oh yeah, of course you're not even allowed caffeine. You are, but I just feel like hormonally I'm already all over the place. I apologize in advance for crying inappropriately or wandering off on a tangent. Oh, I thought you meant genuinely standing up and... Just wandering off around a tangent. Oh, I thought you meant genuinely standing up and- I'm just wandering off around the block. Pregnancy makes me crazy, kids. What can I say?

But yeah, I think it's good to stay off the caffeine if I am recording a podcast with my friend. Fair enough. Yeah, I was trying, we are friends, but I can't remember when this beautiful friendship started, but I did remember something ludicrous, which was before our friendship. There was a from my side, an admiration from afar of Zoe and who she was and the brilliant work she made and sort of just think I just was really, I'm really connected to the way you

lived your life creatively. And I thought you'd probably be quite a laugh and really safe. And thank God, thank God I wasn't hugely disappointed you are your life creatively. And I thought you'd probably be quite a laugh and really safe. And thank God, I wasn't hugely disappointed. You are all these things. But there was a point where, when I was a little bit sort of unsuccessfully stalking you and mum had a restaurant in Stoke-New-Wington called Andy's and next door at the town hall, you had written a brilliant book

and we're doing a talk about it. And my mum was like, Miki, you had the shakes, we went in and I was going to introduce you and I couldn't, I was like, I can't meet her. I can't meet her. We hadn't met by then. That's insane. Because I used to go to your mum's restaurant all the time. Yeah, ships in the night, Zoe, I assume we'd been. Ships in the night.

Absolutely. What's so weird is I have a similar script in my head that I was admiring you from afar, but maybe in the early days we ended up at some soirees. Okay, if you want to call them that, sure. The Indie Sleaze days. Of the Indie Sleaze variety. We were very much there. And I said to you on your podcast with your mom,

I was like, I just couldn't rock a baby doll dress like that. I want to be able to be in that moment of Indie Sleeves and Makeda's clearly there and I'll never meet her there. But it's fine. I admired more than the dresses. But I was like, I just, yeah, maybe I just was communing with you in like my head.

I think some people you do sort of meet in your head before you meet them. So by the time we actually met, I was like, hello, hello, old friend. Hello, Doc. It's my old friend. It was like, there you are. And it's been, it's been really beautiful actually getting to know you and watching this particular time in your life because when I was admiring you it was it was all about your work and suddenly started having these babies and fell madly in love and now have now another child on the way I really can't believe you're having another kid. No, you and me were. Because you said it was overwhelming with the first one.

I probably just said this is really very hard. I did see something on Instagram recently, because of course they're listening all the time, that was like, any second child, you have your father to thank. Oh, right, okay. Second children, thank you. Thank you, Papa.

Right, because you're a first child of three kids, right? Yes, correct. And Phoebe Oliver, my cousin yesterday, I said, I'm doing this with you tomorrow. And she said, ask her about, I said, what do you actually want to ask a person about to have their second kid? And she said, ask them about the difference

between first child and second child, like the first child and second child syndrome. And apparently the second child is sent to teach you shit in a way that the first child isn't. I love that. I think that's true. I think that's actually very true. I think they're all sent to teach us something. But that really rings true because I think when you've done it once you are now open to perhaps like the more spiritual element of it rather than the oh my god what's happening it's all very very new so maybe there is just more space. I love that and how many, how many brothers and sisters do you have? Oh, well, like I grew up as an only child and then met my sister and my brother in my.

Yes, later. My brother a few days. Yeah. So it's been quite a new thing for me to learn how to have siblings. It's hard. It's really hard, especially when you're a spoiled little solo child. Listen, I was on my own for like five and a half years so I kind of have an only child mentality and then like you're saying you have to learn how to how to sibling. How to share I couldn't believe I had to learn how to share so tell me about what your household was like, because you're Hackney, I'm Labbert Grove, but we're both like 84. 84 babe.

Birthday's on Friday. Oh yeah. If my birthday's on Friday, that means yours has just been. Yeah, I'm 41 now Zoe. So when was your birthday? April. Where was my birthday? I did nothing. I had the worst birthday of my life and I just want to warn you, if it's total shit, you're 41st. Don't worry. I think there's something about the 40th. I'm feeling that. I'm feeling that.

I'm feeling like. So strongly. It's going to be a flop. But you had such a great 40th, which I missed. I stupidly missed. I had another 40th that night. Oh, yes. Who did you pick over me? Let's not get into the granular details. No, but who was it? Wasn't it some Poldark actor or is that someone else?

That wasn't me. That wasn't you. As long as it wasn't some Poldark actor. I'm fine. I can guarantee you that it wasn't. I was sad, it was so great. And you went old school West, you went- Rain. You went shubsing. Shubs, I shubsed it. I heard it was so great. And you went old school west, you went rain.

You went shub sing. Shub, I shub stick. And then you called me and said, what should I shub or should I go home? Should I just go home and not do this? And I think there was that conversation and I know some people having it now when you turn 40 that you feel like you've got to do something a bit grown up.

Yeah. And I don't think that's necessarily the case. Well, exactly. You're sort of torn between who you want to be on that day, aren't you? How do you want to cross yourself over the threshold, as it were? It was big.

The existential crisis leading up was insane. Did you feel that? Fuck, yeah. Or you're just like, this is actually just all about the party. It was really tough Did you feel that? Fuck yeah. Or were you just like, this is actually just all about the party. It was really tough. What was yours, what was, what did your existential crisis look like?

And like, what was it based around? I think everyone's is unique to themselves. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Well, I'm someone who already lives very much in the past. Like the past is the country where I live. And so it was nostalgia overload. It was like strong visions and almost like really technicolor pictures of past times in my life.

And also there's started to become, and I'm writing about this at the moment, a pain linked with nostalgia. Did you feel it? So nostalgia for ages, like looking back, the rose tint was really strong. It was like, oh, wow. Oh, yeah, that was so great. Oh, you were so this and these people that you knew then were there. And now it's gone a bit sepia tone. Really? And with a little pain because you're that much further, suddenly that much further away. Yeah, oh my God.

Are you serious? It's like a pain. Yeah, I had this heartbreaking feeling when I was on Powers Terrace because me and Lily were doing a photo shoot on the street I grew up with the day I turned 40. So I was like, it was a head fucks, Owie. Because I was looking at the stoop where I had been so many

different versions of young. And so to be near that place at 40, that was a head fuck. I was like, I actually don't want to be this close to the past. It's too painful when I'm trying to deal with it's just too painful. But we did it. We did it. And then you kind of realize that you're still alive and actually you're a lucky bitch to be alive. That's sort of where I went. Great. So you're someone who finds it easy to live in the present.

When I push myself. Yes. No, I am a nostalgic person as well and Lily isn't really. It's unbelievable how we've made Miss Me work. But she's like, I don't have any memories, I can't remember the past. And I really draw on the past. I find it really useful and healing. So leading up to the 40th, were you like, I'm going to leave the past behind and actually I can focus on the present and future? Or were you trapped there? Yeah, maybe like a week after my party I felt like that.

I felt really like, okay, I guess we're actually doing this. Yeah. And then you realize that you are like, someone, my friend Jesse just turned 14 and he went to New York to do it. He's like, kind of just don't want to be around anything I know or anyone I know. Brilliant.

Totally get it. And he said, what's the best bit? And I said, the fact that you think this scary thing is going to happen and then it happens and nothing happened, if that makes sense. Yes. That's the great bit. It's like, oh, right. Yeah.

Nothing's changed. No, that's actually really, that's really true of what was happening for me as well. It was this sort of invisible fear that has been pumped into you since your late teens, early twenties that somehow 40 is this cut off point for everything. Yeah. It's true. Welcome invisibility. Hello invisibility cloak. Reverse superhero shit. Oh, okay. That's it. Hello invisibility cloak. And it's just not true. It's not true.

I read this article and I've got it was some, some rag, but it was, it was, it was talking about like the sort of socio economics of why 40 is the new 30. It's like, that would be very convenient. And I really hope that's true. But reading this article, it was like, there actually has been a shift and how lucky are we that we're in the part of our lives have existed in the world where the shift has happened because otherwise we'd be told now Zoe now it's done yeah what a short life you'd get I know and all the all the stuff

online about how like the golden girls in that show were like only supposed to be about 50 or something and you're like, wow, that messaging was real strong and real unhealthy. And now our 50 year olds are going with Paltrow, which is fine by me. It's fine by me. I just think, I think every birthday, cause I struggle around birthdays, I do. Like the fact that we're laughing like, ha ha ha,

like you're 41st, you're probably gonna be a bit shit. I will struggle with that. And everyone in my life knows how stressed I get about my birth. It's not stress necessarily. It's like there is a whirlwind that heads towards the birthday that leaves those close to me in the wake of a storm because I, there's like new year, whatever. Like I really could give new year a miss, like sleep through whatever. But birthday is like my new year. So I'm like, however I spend it is how I'm seeing

in this next chapter. And so the messaging around the forties and it's all over, or I don't know, just like this is the time to retire you from society kind of vibe was really strong and actually like you've just said once the day had passed that feeling passed. Yeah you could kind of get back to your life. Yeah and I had a really big part like I had a massive party. I basically threw a wedding to myself. Yeah.

For myself. And that felt, that felt really empowering. And I'm glad I got there, because I could have easily gone, do you know what, I'm just gonna go on like a kayak on a lake by myself. I very much might do something like that for like 43 or 44.

Can I ask you something that's a bit uncomfortable and embarrassing? This is why I'm on Miss Me. This one's uncomfortable and embarrassing for me. I think it's really important to talk about it. If I'm really honest, any feelings of shame and fear were around the fact that I don't have a partner and I don't have kids. And I think for someone like you turning 40, if I'm honest in my head, I would be thinking, what would the fear be about?

Wow. What would the stress be about? Cause your partner's next to you and you've just had a kid. Wow. And it's interesting that it doesn't fucking matter. That stuff is still there, that fear and that anxiety. But did that satiate that kind of anxiety at all

that you were like, actually I have found someone I love and I have just had a child. No, because that's not all there is. I mean, it's wonderful, but it's so, that question is really powerful. And actually I think it's something to unravel and unspin and demystify in a huge way for women. Look, the signifiers that we were told

we were supposed to have at 40 are as unhealthy as the things that we were told we would then not have after 40. It's all unhealthy. It's all maddening and it's all about patriarchal, you know, headbuckery really. And I think, I don't know, I read a really, I read a brilliant book ages ago, which I think every woman should read, especially at this point of, you know, getting older, thinking about parenting, thinking about, you know,

all these signifiers that are supposed to add up to something at this just distinct point in your life. And it's this book called Of Woman Born by Adrienne Rich. She's an amazing poet and feminist and she's just a brilliant writer and she's one of those voices that makes things actually make sense for me. You know, when people are like, you should read this writer and you read them, you're like, oh no, I don't get it. I don't like it. That didn't work for me. That was pretty terrible. And there's a bit in the book that's in this piece

that's sort of saying, when did we get to this point where women specifically without children are judging themselves on something that they don't have rather than something that they do? Yeah. That's wrong. Any messaging that takes you away from authentically looking at the riches of your life is wrong. Absolutely. And it gets a bit fucking whack-a-mole. It's like, okay, man, baby, job. And then it's like, shit, job's gone. Okay, man, baby, fine job.

Did it. I remember my friend Lauren said to me, it's interesting, isn't it, that someone's always got one of the three that they need. And I was like, what do you mean? And she was like, well, I think obviously she meant like my career was doing very well at the time, but I didn't have a baby and I wasn't going out with anyone.

But for her, she has a relationship, two kids, but her work wasn't fulfilling her. And I just thought, but it's never gonna be that three equilibrium. It's just never gonna be that. And even if it is, it probably won't give you what you think it needs. And who makes up that three?

Who's telling you about the three? Where is that coming from? It's the invisible voice of the patriarchy. Yellow whispering. By the way, you're not good enough. And that's going to enable me to control everything you do for the rest of your life. Maybe many people don't know that patriarchy

literally translates to rule of the father. Oh, laters. Let's do this. Let's do this. Shall we fucking take this apart? Shall we take this apart? Let's sit with this. Come on, we've both got mics.

Let's go. But what you're talking about, where are these rules coming from that we're all supposed to be abiding by? I also lost a very dear sweet friend just before my 40th. Oh, I'm sorry. Who was in her early 40s.

And I think that put everything into perspective. Not that it was about using that loss as a way of centering my own kind of feelings about myself, but it was live and it was happening. I'd lost my grandma earlier that year, who was my last grandparent. Then I'd lost this friend and I had another family member who was about to pass away.

So I think I just had this, not, you know, as simple as one of those blooming posts is like, live, laugh, love dance. Like no one's watching. It wasn't that. It was like, you are a live. So you kind of get to decide what this is and that is an enormous privilege. Yes, exactly. You get to choose what your life looks like from now on. You just get to choose your reaction to this, which is a privilege. Because when you see someone passing away in front of your eyes,

it's that lack of choice that is so painful and palpable. And she was a mom and a great mom. And so, you know, to your point about when you look around and go, oh, I've got these markers, I've got children, I've got a partner. This can go like this in a heartbeat. It's all about how, for me, how you really hold that meaning for yourself.

Because you know, people who've got everything and they're like, oh gosh, just need a bit more. Yeah, I talk to them often and I'm like, Jesus Christ, no one's ever satisfied, it's terrifying. Actually, someone was telling me about something that they do in, oh, it was about Minecraft. Love that. Sorry to take was about Minecraft. Love that. Sorry to take us there.

I love that. I can do it, I can do it. I can do it. I can go from grief to Minecraft. We must. I can, I can, I must, I can and I must. My friend Kelly, who works with my mom, you met Kelly. I love Kelly.

Yeah, Kelly, she was talking, because I wanted to talk to you about toys and kids shows. And she was saying that her son who is six and a half obsessed with Minecraft. And she said, well, what she gets upset about is that it's, there's no story. And so there's no time to invest in being told a story and the power of a story.

And what there is instead is big hits of adrenaline, quick, fast hits of adrenaline. And that's like us with Instagram, grownups with Instagram, and kids with things like Minecraft. It's like immediate gratification now, and nothing ever good has happened in life from immediate gratification now.

Like you gotta play the long game. The cherry is sweeter when you pick it later. Like all that shit, like let things ripen. And that's what I worry about with, don't know what that cherry is. Ripening. I love that. Let it ripen. Let it ripen. Oh, so he's like, blah, blah, blah, blah. Let's have a little break. We're just chatting away. I can't remember even what the last thread of conversation was. Let's have a little break and a little breather. Rest is resistance.

Welcome back to Miss Me with the wonderful Zowie Ashton. I wanted to talk actually about Telly again because we're talking about the TV that grew us, which you were on Zoe, like actually on it, actually part of it. In our team, Dino was like, oh look, this is Zoe in the Demon Headmaster. And I was like, oh my God, I remember. But I didn't remember you in it.

What was it like, what was being in those shows? Like how the fuck did that happen? That's what I want to know. So I was at a brilliant drama class called the Anna Shair Theatre, which ran like all week and it was like £2.50. But I saw it was for local kids. Amazing place, right? Based in New Zealand. It was amazing place. Did you go there? So many people went there.

No, I dreamt about going to stage school and my mom was like, absolutely not. You're precocious enough. It wasn't a stage school, Keith. Oh, yes. This very much triggers people from the Anishinaababu because it was like the antithesis of stage school. We were like, you know, we were the raw, unfiltered kids

that you went to if you needed that kind of casting. We didn't do any tap dancing. You weren't allowed to even say the words fame or star. They were very much banned from the class because you were there to act. And also Anna, RIP, she died a few years ago. She was a staunch activist. So she was very much about teaching.

It didn't matter how old you were, like you could start at six and leave at, you know, 50, 60, I mean, the classes spanned all these different ages, not everyone in the same class. But I started when I was six and I left when I was 19. Wow, Jesus Christ. Every Friday night, every Saturday afternoon, strange kid.

So when you got the, when you started getting roles, because I think Demi-Legend Master, what, 10, 11? Yeah, it was about 10, 11. And the casting people would just come in and watch at the back of the class. It wasn't like, you know, weird casting couchy kind of. Auditiony. Sometimes it would be an audition,

but you'd go with your parent, whatever. And, but that was from someone sitting in the back of the class and then just getting a load of kids into a workshop and then casting from the workshop. I would have bloody loved it, you know. You would have, Keats, you would have loved it because it was quite chaotic and I think she drummed into you very early on because you started this game early.

She drummed into you like this, anyone can do it when it's easy. You want to do it when it's easy? Come on, you do it. When you're doing it when it's hard is when the craft begins. Or that's when the that's when the real work starts. And that's what she told us to aim for. It was so special. And she you know, the act in activism always made people really aware of how you could go out into the world with your sense of self, with an authentic voice, with a belief system, with a, you know, with politics. Again, this was, didn't matter how old you were, it was like six years old.

She was like, Zowie, you might have liked to miss, come on, come on. Yeah, like, how are you feeling about the current government? Yeah, she really would. That was what was so special. come up into like, how are you feeling about the current government? She really would. That was what was so special. So the acting was sort of after the fact or sort of because of the fact that we were all there to be able to use our voices and bodies and creativity in this certain way. I mean, she had like quotes from Martin Luther King all over this space, quotes from Gandhi. She herself was like a proud Irish Jew, you know, she was absolutely amazing. But then when you would interact with those kids that had been at the stage school, you were like, oh, wow.

Wow. The British school kids. What's the other one? Sylvia Young. Sylvia Young was terrible. you were like, oh, wow, wow. The Brit school kids. You're right. What's the other one? Sylvia Young. Sylvia Young was a terrible nemesis. That was the other one.

No, because stage schools, sorry, not stage schools, performing arts schools and as you say, this school which was very different but was kind of a place for creativity and for young people to learn lots of different ways to express that. I feel like, do they still exist? I know there's the Brit school, but this was a thing when we were young. There were a lot of these places and they were- And did you go to, I don't know if they exist now, but did you go to one?

Sorry, I can't tell you this now. I went from the streets to screen. What were you doing? What were our parallel lives? Like such a different story. I literally went from nada to pop world. There was no... But how did you get pop world? I'm sorry if I missed the episode where you talked about how you did pop world. Well, because I lived in West London and there were a lot of TV people about and my mom was a bit of a media-y person even though she wasn't... She was sort of around a lot of TV people and they, one of the ladies who was helping them cast Potwell, they'd already had Simon, remembered me

from a dinner party in West London, being quite mouthy. Amazing. And called my mom and said, how old's Miki? And now, is she legal yet? And my mom was like, no. And they were like, who cares? Let's get her in.

Let's get her into this really safe world of television. Well, I was actually kind of... Always looked after, weirdly. I'm so glad. Me too. Yeah, it can mess you up. Did you have some shitty stuff happen? I didn't have anything overtly shitty happen,

which is really lucky. But you know what it's like when you're young and you're in those environments and it's time is money, you really are an object in those environments. And I think you can sometimes, certainly for me, I think my sense of identity was shaped by performance and how on you could be at this young age. And I don't know, I just think, is that healthy?

Well quite. Is it healthy? Because like, and also you can see, like now obviously with Instagram and Snapchat and all, you know, our young people are very ill because they're comparing themselves constantly. They can see them, their own image all the time. So we grew up in the era of like the disposable camera, but then also being on screen, you get this other side of it. You get to watch back and go, oh, this is what I look like, that's what I sound like. So this is me.

Yeah. I find that trippy. I'm like, this is me. People go, do you watch yourself back on screen? Like not really now, but when I first started. And it wasn't really, it's like, sure, but it's more like I'm just learning who that is. I'm not really watching myself back on screen.

Yeah. And you have no idea really who you are when you're doing it. You're kind of making it up as you go along. I mean, do you feel informed and educated and like inspired by that time? Or did you get to a point where you're like, mm, I feel the shoplifting spree is close, the meltdown. No, I feel like what happened was,

was because it was such a small show to begin with, PopWork, I was given a lot, me and Simon were given a lot of power, inadvertently, because producers kept leaving because no one wanted to work on PopWork because it was so small. What? So we sort of used that as an opportunity to sort of take it over.

And so I've always had authority in my career from a young age. And I've been called quite difficult, even though I'm bloody lovely. It's a right word. What? But in the early days, I would question things and I still do.

And I think people, that makes people feel uncomfortable sometimes, but I don't care. It's really important to me to question things and make sure they can be better, because they always can be. You were so brilliant on that show. I mean, you and Simon.

Oh, stop it. So I'm happy to hear that you had a sense of autonomy behind the scenes. They wanted me to say smorgasbord, I was like I'm not saying these stupid words please. Smorgasbord one stop shop for pop and shit like that, I was like no stop. And you made the show better, you know, because of it. So that's not, you had like a bit of a producer head on at the same time, But you've always had that again, this is what I've observed in our years of communing with each other in each other's minds. Spiritually communing. I've always thought actually, I think this person has a has a kind of autonomy about

them, which is really inspiring. Thank you, Zali. But can I just circle back for one second? This is where the true detective board is getting like, we'll never catch the killer at this point. But when you were saying about the 40th and getting to the 40th and being like, my questions are, where's the partner, where's the child,

where's the grounding, the's the child? Where's the, where's the grounding, the family sort of familial grounding that everyone says I was supposed to have at this point? How did you feel going to your 41st? Was it, was it the flare up of the 40? Or are you now like, I'm actually fine. I have a wealth of riches in my life. Well, I'd just gone through a lot and what happened incurred me having to leave my home and move into my mum's. So that has not been easy because, and that again, I was like, it's actually very lovely here. My mum's finally got the means to

have a big, beautiful house and my nan's here. And I'm actually very lucky that I have this and they don't even ask me to pay rent. But my life was like, if I don't have those, well, I've got a flat, I've got a home, I've got that structure, I've got a walk-in wardrobe, okay? I'm fine. And now I've had to be like, who am I without those things? Even though it's temporary, like I'm finding a flat to move into,

but the time here has been about ego. Wow. And the shame of ego, of like the shame of not having my flat because I don't have the other two things. So like again, whack-a-mole. Yeah. And I've had to really change my perspective at 41.

I knew I didn't want to do anything. Everyone's like, well, let's just go play pool because you love pool. I was like, fine. And I just drank white wine and got white wine drunk and cried all night. But where were the tears coming from? Shame. So the sense of shame has followed you for the past year in some capacity?

Yeah, because of losing the thing that I, you know, not only did I love my home and it really wasn't my fault that I had to leave, not only did I love my home and it really wasn't my fault that I had to leave, it was a really external, terrifying situation. But it's also just been like, who am I without these things at 41? Like I don't have enough of the things. And it's like, no, you're actually working really hard every day, looking after your team, building a business and looking after your nan and helping your mom. How were we meant to live? Yeah.

Maybe like this. I'm very sorry that on your 41st you were crying, because I look at you and I just go, that's someone who has such an incredible sense of self, who has such an incredible village and family, and who is birthing things all the time. Yeah. You are so productive.

For fucking help, Makita, you're like one of the most productive people that I know in my peer group. Yeah. You are birthing all the time. And one of the things that I realised on the day I gave birth and the unsolicited advice I'm now giving to younger people, especially younger actresses I bump into, they're like, she was very much annoying when I bumped into her in the street. I barely know her. But I'm just like, this is for me to pass on. Is the day I gave birth, I was like, wow, oh my gosh, you are a warrior. You've tapped into this warrior spirit.

This is what you were capable of the whole time. Wow. Why did I let anyone get the grubby mitts on me at any point in life? Like anyone. How did I let anyone grind me up when this is- I'm such a sacred being. I'm such a sacred being. I'm such a powerful worry. And what I realized is, in the privilege of having given birth, because that's how I came to the realization, that there were so many times in my life where I'd had this feeling that I wanted to birth. But the messaging was, oh, you broody.

That's what it is. It's the biological crop. It's time to get a fella. It's time to really start battening down the hatchet. This was from like late teens. Yeah, I'll tell you what that feeling is. I don't know why I'm doing this voice as the voice of the patriarchy. No, because that is what that voice sounds like quite often. It's a bit like, let me tell you where you're at. And it's like, maybe you basically tell me what we're meant to be, what we're feeling is the idea of birthing many other things that aren't just children. Yes. And so the realization in that moment was every time I had felt that palpably and

had gone to great lengths to try and settle myself down in order to bring forth a dependent human. I was actually supposed to be birthing myself. There were so many times I was supposed to be birthing myself not settling down, but actually rising up, like crazily up, do you know what I mean? To go to another vibration and then another vibration, another vibration. then another vibration, another vibration. And these feelings were happening sort of in seven, I would say like

six, seven year cycles, right? Which is this life cycle that, you know, apparently exists. And I was like, why was the messaging that I was supposed to be the freest, most adventurous self to relearn me and heal me to get ready for the dependent because I was like, oh, there are a lot of times I wanted this feeling but not with a dependent that I now have to be responsible. Right. And because you actually got pregnant like late 30s, right? Yeah. Right, after all that. Yeah, I did this late.

But the messaging had been so constant. And I just, in that moment, I was like, wow, I wonder if we really do need to be telling women at any time in their life, when you feel that feeling of birth, and society is telling you it's broodiness and batten down the hatches, what you actually need to do is be, you know, I don't know, what is batten down? Is it a pin? No, but I'd like that in response to that, rise up instead. Take off the hatch, open the hatch.

Open the hatch. Do you know what I mean? Bus open the hatch and rise up. That's what I'm telling you, because you are birthing yourself, as far as I can see from the outside, again and again and again. And despite these issues that are coming up and challenges, you're continuing to grow. And that's the best thing you can offer any child. Oh God, you make me wanna go to spiritual battle.

I said to Phoebe, I said, I need to connect to the spirit. She said, Zowie will probably get you there. And he just did. He just totally fucking did. Because what's happening with your egg freezing? Obviously, I've been following on through the episodes. My egg freezing miss me journey. It is a journey though.

Yes. Again, I started panicking that I was, that 41 year old eggs weren't even worth freezing and being down, being mean to myself about it. And then I thought, no, I, I'm, I said to Lily, I'm just curious about what's going on. So me and Lily are going to go to an appointment next few weeks just to find out what's going on. Great. Just start. Perfect. That's it, right? That's it. That's just do the thing. Little softness, just a little softness on this journey because it's a, it's a weird one. But I feel like now, to you, I feel like I've had loads of kids now. I'm pretty broke.

You have, honestly, and even your relationship with your mother and the journey you guys have been on, you know, that is perfect priming the ground to become a mother. Healing with your mom. Oh, and my dad. Getting to an amazing place with your mom and dad. This is the ground.

People are like, oh, I just popped one out now while everything's like still a little bit frayed and funky. Sure, you know, whatever. The children decide when they come. So actually it's not really, it's sometimes within our own power. But that's the best thing you can do, because you are the container. Mm.

I had a lot of boyfriends in my 30s, or men that I was involved in my 30s, and we weren't even getting on or having a good time. And they'd be like, right, we should probably, like, get you knocked up. And I'd be like, why? Why would we do that? It's like, well, that's what we should do.

It's like, I don't want to have a child with you. I recognize it in a lot of those moments where it, well, people, men looked at me dumbfounded that I didn't want to breed with them. That you don't want my sperm, no thanks. Actually, fuck off. So I do understand what you mean by when have I been met with these feelings of that birthing feeling.

And actually that, the last time a man was like that with me, was like oh my god I need to start working again like I miss my job I miss work and I left him and got my career back. Thank goodness thank G thank G for that. Thank you thank you. That's the best thing you could do. Because the other thing is when we are in relationship, we are being mirrored all the time. Whoever you're with, you're kind of like, this is a mirror. And to sometimes go, actually, I need to just take this feeling away from you. Right. I don't need this mirror.

I actually have understood now what my mission is away from this person. It's very, very healthy. Because you have a child with someone, you're going to be mirroring that person forever. For the rest of your life. So you were like, this isn't a mirror I wanna look in, I'm gonna go, you did the right bloody thing. But maybe in a great relationship, because you're mirroring each other all the time,

you sort of, like I was watching this great, I found this really good, sorry, we will end in a minute, found this really good thing on Instagram, unbelievably, which was like, it's like a guy that has an acting school, but he seems to be a good guy, a good one. But one scene they showed was the Jack Nicholson scene in As Good As It Gets, that brilliant James L. Brooks film with Helen Hunt, Jack Nicholson.

And Jack Nicholson says something horrible to Helen Hunt. And she says, you have no idea how much what you just said hurt my feelings. He says it about her dress. He says, they let you in here with a T-dress and she'd really made an effort. And then he starts, he says, I want to give you a compliment. And he starts talking about these pills that he's taking. And she's like, I don't see how this is a compliment to me. And he stops and he looks at her and he says, you make me want to be a better man. And I think if you're in a great relationship and you're constantly mirroring

each other, wanting to be better because you keep having to see that reflection for yourself and the other. That's the relationship I'm interested in. Wow. I think that would be really interesting. I'm not interested in that. I don't love that line. You make me want to be a better man. Whatever.

Fuck you, Jack Nicholson. Why does that not sound like... She's not centred in that comment. Is she? I'm such a pushover. No you're not. This is again where these 90s Oscar winners that we so love, we were just learning from maybe all the wrong sources because film is my church. 80s, 90 sources. Because film is my church. 80s, 90s film and TV is my church. As skewed as it may have been with the messaging. The quotes live in the mind.

Those 90s Oscar-winning films, like I just love that shit. Oh, yeah, The Powerhouses, yeah. The Powerhouses? Yeah, Jerry Maguire, yeah. Jerry Maguire watched The Other Night, What a Star! Makita, why was i thinking so strongly about jerry maguire before getting on the line with you no no that's not okay i have not stopped talking about it this week i was like do you know how many fucking things we still say today

because of that film i literally was going to open seeing you on this podcast going i'm not gonna do what you all think i'm gonna do which is you know the bit where, I'm not going to do what you all think I'm going to do, which is the bit where he gets fired and has to leave and he's holding the goldfish. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Show me the fucking money. Show me the money. At the end when he's talking about anyway, we're going to have to save this for self-esteem. We have to stop recording. No.

This was lovely. Honestly, this is like the best supply teacher gig that anyone could get. I think I'm trying to channel Lili at sometimes, it's like bring that cooler, cervix thing in, but I just don't, I don't have that. I love that, that cooler, cervix thing. I guess she does have that. No, you were bloody beautiful and brilliant. I could talk shit with you all day,

but we must let each other go. But I will see you for Listen Bitch on Monday. The theme is, what do you tell the people, the theme? The theme is self-esteem. The thing, the issue, the challenge. Self-esteem is the one, though. If we heal the inner child within and work on our self-esteem, we could all be kings.

I agree. I agree. I think we might solve it. I think we might solve it in this half an hour. We'll see you on Monday where we solve all of the sort of infant child within in all of us. Wouldn't that be great? Zowie Ashton, you are a wonderful woman. You are. A wonderful mother. I'm sure you're a wonderful partner as well. But you're a great friend and a fantastic human being. And thank you for being here with me today to chat. It was my absolute pleasure.

I love everything that you do. And I'll always be here to amplify you in any way. That'd be great. That'd be great if you could do that for my whole life. Mwah. Mwah. Bye. Thanks for listening to Miss Me with Lily Allen and Miquita Oliver.

This is a Persephoneca production for BBC Sounds. Our culture can cancel someone in the blink of an eye. Celebrities, sports stars, politicians, influencers and royalty can all find themselves in the firing line. In the age of AI-generated evidence, lawsuits written in legalese, you need to pass the bar to decipher. How are you supposed to separate the fact from the fiction? That's where we come in. I'm Anishka Matandawati and this is Fame Under Fire from BBC Sounds.

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