Miss Me? - Bitch, Listen!

Episode Date: July 28, 2025

Miquita Oliver and Zawe Ashton answer your questions about self esteem.Next week, Zawe is back with Miquita and we want to hear your questions about CLUBBING. Please send us a voice note on WhatsApp: [phone]. Or, if you like, send us an email: [e-mail] episode contains very strong language and adult themes. Credits: Producer: Flossie Barratt Technical Producer: Will Gibson Smith Assistant Producer: Caillin McDaid Production Coordinator: Rose Wilcox Executive Producer: Dino Sofos Assistant Commissioner for BBC: Lorraine Okuefuna Commissioning Editor for BBC: Dylan Haskins Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. This episode of Miss Me contains very strong language and adult themes, which I know is making you want to listen even more. Sally, I'm going to ask you to welcome the world to Listen Bitch because I do it every week. How shall I do it? Well, it's very much open to interpretation, Listen Bitch. Lily's a bit more of a, like, I spoke to Lily today and she was like, listen bitch, I was

like, I can't believe we have a show called that and you still say that to me on the phone. And you're still saying it. I mean, I like to start lots of conversations saying Elizabeth, so I'm going to say, bitch listen. Bitch listen has a different timbre. Do you know what? You text me. I'm so excited for Miss Me and Bitch Listen. I was like, bitch listen is not bad. Welcome to bitch listen. The theme is self esteem. Self esteem. We have things that we didn't talk about last week that we really want to get into. So if I have to take one of your questions to maternity wear, I will.

Yeah. I can do it and I will. Let's have our first question today, please. For listen bitch. I mean, sorry, bitch listen. Bitch listen. Hi, Zowie, I'm Miki. I just want to say thank you for holding

this bit for conversations like this. I've struggled with self-esteem for a long time, feeling like I'm not enough or like I'm always holding back who I really am. Zowie, watching how unapologetically you show up in your art and in your words, just in your present has really inspired me. You've helped me start to believe that confidence isn't about being loud but about

being real. I guess my question is how do you start becoming proud of yourself? How do you build that self-worth when it hasn't always been there? Thank you both for being voices of softness and strength that means more than you know. Oh my god. See, they fucking get you on this show. Genuinely, I'm going to have my first blob of the conversation. How did you get there? First of all, thank you for that question and for being so open. Part of me is feeling teary just because of just how vulnerable that person just made themselves. That level of vulnerability moves me always. But also what makes me a

bit teary is this relationship that you have with people when you're a bit of a public person, which is has this maybe level of projection where you're projecting something, they're projecting something onto you. So the idea that this person thinks that I'm more confident, potentially more authentic somehow than them to me does not feel true or balanced. And that's anyway. But that's really good to say. I think that's really real. And my part of the answer would be, it is not easy. And actually, maybe worth saying something because you,

listener, have been so, that I recently found out about myself, which I haven't really told any family or friends. So it will be an exclusive for my beloveds. Close to me. On the listen bitch right now. Okay. And it is related to this question. So I have been convinced for a long time I had ADHD. Convinced. Then when all the discourse about it was coming out online and especially women saying, I was diagnosed in later life, I've been doing so much masking and building all these coping strategies around it. Then

finally hearing I had ADHD was this really releasing moment because it's been something that's been really hard to live with. So I went for an assessment the other day because I was just like, stop saying every time you read something online about ADHD, I think I'm undiagnosed. It's irresponsible. Just go and get an assessment. And I went in and I was like, you do these forms before you go. And I went in and I was like, okay do these forms before you go. And I went in and I was like, okay, you can tell me.

It's bad. I've got it bad. I've got it bad, right? Just let me know now. And the guy was like, let's just do the official protocol, shall we? The 90 minute chat. And then I don't have it. Shit!

But I do. And he was like, no, you don't have it. Shit. But what I was like, but I do. And he was like, no, you don't have it. I can't score you highly enough on some of these things to say that you have a disorder. Cause the last D in ADHD, right, is disorder. He was like, you have human things. You are a flawed human being like many others.

Anyway, so I was like, okay. But he said, I want you to test you for something else, which is RSD, which is rejection sensitive dysphoria, sorry, rejection sensitive dysphoria, which is associated with ADHD, but it can be associated with lots of other things. And I did that test in the room and scored pretty high. Really highly. I was like, does anyone score this high? He was like, no. Great that they tested you for something else. It has opened my eyes because it is the self-esteem test in lots of ways. It is the people pleaser's disease. It's not obviously a disease, but it's the people pleasing neurodiverse. Neurodivergence.

Neurodivergence. And it's about fear of failure. It's about, you know, this hypervigilance that you sometimes build up as a means to just avoid criticism. Right. And avoid those feelings of like essentially rejection. Pain. Pain. And so I would say to you, listener, it has been such a long journey of getting

to know about what my self-esteem levels are. I think for my life, they've probably been pretty low. When you think about what self-esteem is, people who can maybe create boundaries and who can walk away from interactions feeling good about themselves and who can be in the workplace and just, you know, move through any challenges and not be sort of derailed by thoughts of the things that went wrong or leave relationships on time. Do you know what I mean? Like it's time to exit. I'm going to go ask for what they want. Ask for what they need. You know, who's good at this? Simon Amstel. Wow. All those things above, but he takes a lot of mushrooms. And he said that really out.

At this point, we'll try anything. But what's amazing is that you're saying that Simon or you, when you have this public persona, a lot of your self-esteem just gets projected that way. And then behind the scenes, we're potentially dealing with something that's quite different. So I would say I haven't reached any plateau of like self-esteem, but I'm really glad that I can be inspiring to anyone who feels that they want to be more authentically themselves. Because I think I do have that. I have that. But then in other ways I don't. I wonder if like, like on a bit higher level, like George Clooney, like I wonder how he deals with self

esteem, because that yes, we have public lives, and there is projection on us. But imagine being like that kind of famous and that kind of the stuff that we put on people of that level, that must be so heavy to hold. Because everyone's a fucking mess. And everyone's definitely just trying to like, heal the inner child. Even George Clooney. I think that's important to know. I think the higher up the frame tree you climb, the less self-esteem, the thinner the self-esteem air gets. I imagine so. Yeah. I imagine so.

Because you want, you have to, you know, there's, I love the school of life. Do you love the school of life, Alan de Bottin and this whole... Oh yes, Alan de Bottin? And this is, oh yes, Alan de Bottin. And I just got back from France, I think. Oh, so this is from Bordeaux. This is why I'm doing this. For pronunciation was really spot on. And there's this like selection of this pack of like cards or like, you know, phrases that they have, like inspiring phrases that they have in this pack of cards. And one of them is the sign of good parenting is that your child has no desire to be famous.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Isn't that right? Yeah. Because that must mean that they love themselves enough to not need all that from other places, exterior places. The applause and acceptance of strangers. It means nothing. We need to be looking to the scientists, the doctors, the people who do that kind of work

to really think about what self-esteem might look like. There have always been storytellers. And I think what I don't want to do is disparage what I do, because I think storytelling is extremely important and a way that you can actually build your self-esteem. You can get so much from, you know, theater can be transformative. Stories are transformative and the stories we tell ourselves are basically the script of our lives. So I don't want to disparage that, but I think there is something about this society that we find

ourselves in now in the West where it's like the priorities need to get real. It's not about this projected sense of self. It's really about what happens when things are very quiet and no one is watching. Bingo. Let's have another question, please. Bitch listen. That was only one question for bitch listen. Let's have a question please. Bitch listen. That was only one question for bitch listen. Let's have a fucking another one. Hi there.

My name is Aski and I'm from Oxford. And my question today about self-esteem is, you know when you wake up in the morning and you put on a really like good outfit and you're like looking in the mirror and you're like, yeah, I actually look fucking hot. And you're like having a great time feeling yourself and you're like ready to like conquer the day. And then like you see something or read something and you're like self-esteem just plummets in like the space of like five minutes. How do you like cope with that? Or like, do you even feel like this? And like, how do you come back from it? And you know, like choose to kind of

continue, continue your day? Or how does it affect you? Anyway, yeah, love the podcast. Thanks so much. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think it doesn't take much to drag your back down. Takes so much to take yourself up. I mean, the queen of cute outfits is in front of me. The queen of cute outfits. Stop right there.

A sustainable, always sustainable, slay fashion. Too found top. Hello. Don't dance with me. Hello. Thanks, Howie. How did you feel when you saw yourself out in those cutie patootie outfits? Do you know what?

Fine, until I look up fucking Instagram. And it's not about whatever maybe social media says it's about, it's about the fact that comparison is the death of creativity and self-esteem, I believe. And to the point where I think isolation is actually quite good for self-esteem. I spend a lot of time on my own, reading the things that fire me up,

watching documentaries that make me think, coming up with ideas for the work I wanna do in the world. Like that stuff to me builds up my self-esteem to then return to the world and be a better person at the pub, whatever. But like I need time on my own to remember what it is I like and what makes me excited. Then my self-esteem is pretty high.

If I, you know, Oprah says that like, we were never meant to look at the other guy so much. You're not meant to look at the other people in the race. Like, it makes you trip. Yeah, God. And so the fact that we have tools that are literally based on comparison, it's just obviously isn't a good idea

when thinking about what one really needs for one's own self to feel good. It kind of homogenizes the idea of happiness, self-esteem and values. These are the things that make us feel good. Fashion, power, success, celebrity. It's like, nah, that's so not true. It's not true. So I'd say isolation is a really good one. Isolation is a way to build yourself back up. Yeah, I get so sad. These questions are sad. Why do we have to live like this? It's so, it makes me feel so angry.

And it's true. Yeah, how do you sustain that feeling? How do you bottle that feeling when you're like, I've hit the highs of feeling, you know, kind of in myself and loving myself and cute. Was it, was it dangerous minds or was it sister act, the line where it's like anyone can get an A but it's keeping an A? I think that's dangerous minds. Thank you Michelle. Very good. Exciting game to play with you though. I love that for us. Was it sister act 2? I was like, I'm listening. I'm so with.

It was Dangerous Fines. So, sorry, say that again. It's one thing to get an A. And keep an A. Yeah, it's, wow. Because getting an A feels damn good. And like this listener has said, when you get that instant moment where you're like,

I'm feeling myself. But how do we sustain that? I mean, in terms of putting on a cute outfit, I don't really know, haven't known really so much what that is these days. Well, how are you feeling, how do you feel pregnant? Like truly, like aesthetically, like in yourself, when it comes to like clothes you want to put on

and the way you feel about walking out the door, is it true that one just feels very sexy and like I'm growing something? For some. I would say, yeah, maternity wear is quite violent. I would say it's violent. No, this is what Zoe said to me. She said on a voice note, she went, I want to talk about maternity wear because it's

not okay and it's violent. And I couldn't stop laughing. So I did my own research and it's fucking hideous. It's bad. And it makes no sense because this is a huge market and kids is a huge market that every business and brand has looked at, you know, and funnels money into and ideas and marketing. Oh yeah. Who are the big hitters in maternity? I don't know so well. I don't know who is. What's crazy is there's not any maternity wear really in the shop. So when you go into a shop and you ask the maternity section, it is like as big as the leggings section in any shop. It's like two rails. It's like two rails. So like you have to do a lot of it online. But what I can't work out, listener, and this will pertain to your question, is why they

want you to look like a baby. Yes, it's either infantile or sort of second thoughty. Well just like outfits that you should go and sit at your loom in. It feels like that's the messaging. It's like, retire from society. And sort of play the harp. Sit with your loom in your floral, you know, wrap, dress and goodbye for now. And it's really depressing. I actually had a real meltdown the first time I had to go buy maternity wear. No, but that's really easy. Goodbye for now.

Goodbye. Because there must be something in it. Why isn't this industry big? Because it's essentially, historically, we've been told to get back in your cage with your bad genes, with your bad maternity genes. We don't want to see you. No one wants to see you. We love you. We deify you, mothers, but also you piss us off. Just go behind the, just go somewhere that we can't see. It was, I actually had a meltdown in a major, in Westfield and I just, and I was so upset. And so again, pertaining to the question, I had to walk away from that type of clothing and try and find my identity again in clothes.

I was like, I didn't realize how much emotion clothes were for me, how much they stored for me. So actually, I don't think you can ever underestimate the power of clothing. Totally. Which I thought, which I did before, you know, I was card carrying member of the Erie Beattie Teary committee. I didn't have to think things just fell on me. Androgyny was my, that was my, not my mask. What was it?

It was my thing, you know, androgynous. I was like, that's me. I have a vibe. Did that come from Vod, Fresh Me? Or who came first, Vod as a character you played in your life or this androgynous person within? I think, but I think the androgynous person was there, you know, already. And then that sort of compounded it.

It's because again, I was in the feedback loop of people being like, Oh my God, you're so androgynous. That's so cool. It was like, do that a little bit more then. People are loving it. And now I'm card carrying member of like auntieville. No, no, no. I'm going to ask you the straight question.

As a pregnant woman today, what is it you need from clothes? I need to be able to access shapes, textures and vibes that would be there anyway? Yes, quite. I don't want someone to go, no more leather jacket for you, you're too big. Yeah. I want that. Here's a pleather one with elastic. Why?

No, no, don't do that to me. It's like, what are you doing? What are you doing to us? Why do I have to give up wearing... What's something I really love to wear and then... Just like even a simple bret on top. Please don't make suddenly the stripes very, very odd and much thinner than the regular bret on. And don't add the buttons.

Yes. It's like maternity wear has become its own terrible style. It's like we're not all just suddenly un-stylish bitches because we're growing a baby. We have to move on though, Zowie, you chatty chat chat. Why don't you ask for the next question, babe? Can we have the next question for Bitch Listen? Bitch Listen! Hi Makita and Zowie. My name is Annabel and I live in Nottingham. My question for you on self-esteem is, do you think self-esteem is gendered? Do women tend to have lower self-esteem when compared with men or vice versa?

What are your thoughts? Thanks so much. I love listening to the podcast. Oh, thank you, honey. Do you know what? I love it too. All too. Thanks. Thanks, Annabel. I love it. the podcast. Oh, thank you, honey. Do you know what? I love it too. Autumn, thanks. Thanks, all right.

I love it. I'm a fan. I'm sitting here like I shouldn't have been let in here. It's like going on the Desmond set all over again, isn't it? It's like, wow. Even better, even better. No, I was gonna say my autumn,

but used to work with me. She went to a girls' school and she said it was absolutely brilliant for their self-esteem because men weren't there. So you weren't worried about having too many opinions, trying to look attractive and PE or whatever, you were really focused on what you wanted to get out of your school life.

And I was like, the distraction that boys were, I mean, a wonderful, thrilling distraction. But imagine if they weren't there. How like, how focused you'd be at like, Autumn's really, really, what's the right word, confident, articulate, well read, but like, she really knows herself and she's really brave all the time in her opinions and thoughts. And I really think once she told me that was like, I think it might stem from that, from not having boys around for her opinions and thoughts. And I really think once she told me that, I was like, I think it might stem from that, from not having boys around for her whole school life. Wow.

Girls school was hell for me. Oh, you went to girls school? I had the opposite. You were like, where are the boys? I was like, this is damaging. It was good that I wasn't around them because I'm a highly sensitive person. And again, that affects self-esteem in a big way.

But what did you find, this is interesting, what did you find damaging about being around just women, but at one gendered school? I think there was something, again, like you just said about the comparison thing. It was just comparison, comparison, comparison. Everywhere you looked, you had to be really strong to break away from the herd mentality. And the popular girls have been defined by

clothing or hair or race, let's be honest. I just felt that the hierarchical almost. I just felt that the hierarchical divisions were just so strong. And then I would go to my drama class on the Friday and Saturday, which was mixed and just seemed to have maybe a little bit more balance. But is self-esteem gendered? Wow. That's a really powerful question. What girls' school did you go to? I went to a school in my first year, my year seven, called Elizabeth Garrett Anderson, EGA. But I was very, very bullied there. So gendered self-esteem or kind of the question of that I think was quite high because I was like, how could other women be being this cruel and damaging my self-esteem? Because all I want to do is just kind of be

with this tribe. Everyone was very funny in my group, but sadly there was just a lot of bullying. Then I went to a school called Parliament Hill, which was ages away from Hackney, because I had to move. You went Parliament Hill, yeah? It wasn't really anyone's choice. We just had to get me out of that first school because it was so bad. Like some of the girls really wanted to kind of kill me. Can I ask, were they white? Most of them?

This was a predominantly non-white school. Oh my goodness. And so that was really painful. I mean, we haven't talked about our biracial upbringings, but on the same question as like, is self-esteem gendered? Is it racialized? Especially in the West? I was really badly bullied. I don't even really like saying that because I feel like so many people were bullied in school, but I was really badly bullied. And it was black girls quite often. And that was because they were told by society. And when I say society at that point, I mean, R&B music videos, which is like, you know, that was culture to us.

They were huge. Yeah, yeah. Every music video, if it was like a black rapper, artist, singer, whatever, the love interest girl was always mixed race or light skinned. So dark skin girls were being told that no matter what, this girl is more attractive to your man or your mate

or whatever you might want, they'll go here first. And I didn't feel attractive. I felt really uncomfortable and unattractive in my own skin when I was about 12. But what I did was I became immersed in white culture because of a summer away. Where did you go? Where did you go? Holland Park.

Holland Park. So I was like, they'll get this. No, no, no, no, no. A black girl wearing like purple DMs and having, I had dreads and camo army trousers. I was like, they came for me. And I thought I was gonna be so popular. So it was really, really hard and sort of made me,

I suppose, lean even more into wishing I was more of my white side, wishing I looked more like this phantom white father that I had that I didn't know very well, but why didn't I look more like that and get that hair? And even though the black girls that were bullying me probably were threatened by the fact that they were told that I had nicer hair,

I didn't feel like it was white enough. So I think race really comes into self-esteem because this is the first time I've felt whole with both. Oh, that's beautiful. You know, like I really feel Scottish, white, black, antique, and African. I've never felt both at the same time. And I think that's what's made me

a better human being over the last five years, a better broadcaster, a better friend, a better family member. I actually make you want to cry. You should cry because I feel tearful. It's such a long journey. Yeah, like maybe a better person in the world to like understand yourself wholly

after jumping from side to side as a mixed race person my whole life, whichever one was safer. Yeah, and it is about where your safety is. It's so much to do with survival and living with a split is hard enough for any person. But when that's a racialized cultural split, it's really big. And to be able to say that you've brought that together in wholeness is huge. I mean, I could talk about this for

another hour, maybe we will. But it's massive, Keats. And I had a similar story. What's your mix? Your mum's Ugandan? My mum's Ugandan and my dad is, well, English, we thought, half Cornish. And then he did the family tree and he's like, French Jewish. And I'm like, I kind of knew that I had like a deep intuition. But I was both of the- You're so French Jewish. Oh my God. Can we just? That's just great.

Can we just? It makes deep sense. What a discovery. It makes deep sense. But I had always felt I wanted to be more with my friends of color. I really was like, I had a lot of mixed, I had loads of mixed friends. But in that instance, I was like getting some kind of acceptance or entry to this group of young black women is extremely important for me. black women is extremely important for me. And it wasn't, not only was it not coming, but they were telling me that they thought I was essentially like a white person. And there was like a white girl in the group who they were like, she's more black than you. I just remember being like, why has she ever been to Africa? At this point, I'd been, I

spent so much exclusive time growing up in Uganda. I was like, what has she ever been to Africa? At this point, I'd been, I spent so much exclusive time growing up in Uganda, I was like, what makes her more black than this girl here? And they were like, well, she does more black things. And thereby opened a very unhealthy box, which tells the tale of their levels of self-esteem, which was sadly extremely low. And they'd been failed by society already. And I was like, okay, so what are white things and what are black things? It was like white things are reading books and going to the library, which is what you like to do. I was like, oh no, no. But what a disservice to black people, right? The idea of reading a book is for white people

because that's sort of essentially what they've been told. That's what they've been told. And that is, at that time when you're being bullied, you think these bullies have all the self-esteem, they have all the answers and they seem to have the confidence. And then you go fast forward in time and you're like, the self-esteem amongst that group was so low. We need to do like a separate show on this. Mm-hmm. Oh, Zowie Ashton, you delightful bitch. We are gonna have a little break, and then we'll come back from more delightful conversation with this wonderful woman. with this wonderful woman. Welcome back to said delightful conversation with this wonderful woman.

I missed you. Good. Good. It's called Miss Me. It's not, but there is a question mark, which I like. It's like, miss me? It's not miss me. Again, the intonation is always... This title is intonation, darling. That was important to us. Could we have another question, please call her. Hey, Makita and whoever your Listen Bitch guest is this week. This is Claire from Aotearoa, New Zealand.

I've just finished work and I'm driving home and it's really cold. It's about 10 o'clock at night. I'm a dance teacher. I finished late and I'm looking forward to getting home and snuggling in my bed. In regards to self-esteem, I was wondering if you guys think there's a limit to having good self-esteem. So we know we don't wanna have low self-esteem, we wanna try and believe in ourselves, but is there a point where having high self-esteem crosses the line into being arrogant? And how do we know where that line is?

Particularly when you're dealing with your children. So I've got a four-year year old and it made me think, you know, you build their confidence up and you give them confidence. But at what point do you have to kind of pull that ego and that esteem back a little bit so they don't become arrogant? Even though I think it's nuts that there's like a dance teacher in New Zealand listening to Miss Mila, I just love that

you're international bitch. Fucking international bitch. You need a new segment. International bitch. International bitch. Thank you. I love that question. I would love to talk to Zowie about that because you are raising one person and about to raise another little person. Yeah. And my cousin was talking to me because she has two kids, about when she saw the arrival of the ego in her children.

Because of course we all have one. So to watch it arrive, it's like, ah, is this maybe the time to mold it into the perfect human being? Of course not. I think just the idea that you can mold a new life is fallacy. That's my stance, right? One of my favourite poems is a poem called On Children. It's actually also a song by an amazing vocal harmony group called Sweet Honey

in the Rock. I know who Sweet Honey in the Rock are! Let's not! We need another segment! Don't you just say Sweet Honey in the Rock? Don't you bring Sweet Honey in the Rock like that! I'm going to have to say it to my mom. Don't you dare say, Sweet Honey in the Rock. Don't you bring Sweet Honey in the Rock. I have to say it to my mom. Don't you bring that. Wow. Gospel, right? Gospel, acapella, harmony group, you know, about 10 black American women. Wait, is it your children?

I'm not your children. They are the sons and the daughters of the likes long before they come from you but they are not from you and though they are with you they belong not to you wow i can't believe i know what you're talking about it's two new members they didn't know they needed I know what you're talking about. It's two new members. They didn't know they needed. But it's a poem by a poet called Khalil Gibran. I hope I said his name right.

American-Lebanese poet. And it's the place to start, I would say, in terms of self-rearing. Because it is. Your children are not your children. They are the sons and the daughters of life's longing for itself. Then there's another line which is like,

Oh, I never knew what that line's about. I used to always go, Long, a dah, dah, dah, longing for itself. Life's longing for itself. They come through you, but are not from you. And though they are with you, they belong not to you. And then there's another line in the poem,

which I don't think is in the song, which is basically like, you are the bow that these live arrows fly from. And everyone likes a sturdy bow, essentially. And so I'm now realizing you are the amount of self-esteem your child will have, potentially. Maybe. The fact that you might think that you can be like, here, here's this self-esteem.

But if it's just like a hand of air, because you don't have any yourself, it's not going to translate. I think it's something you have to model. I don't know if it's something you can give, therefore an answer to that question, is it something you can then control if you see it getting to a place that you think is creating a narcissist or something? I just don't know. I think it's all, my self-esteem is modeling. So I'm working away on mine big time so I can be that. Yeah. And energy is the most powerful thing we have. You know what I mean? So if that

is what you are emitting and that is what you are like emitting, and that is what it will be felt and learned from. I find it with this building business, it's so much of it is out of my comfort zone. So much of it, Zoe, particularly the language, the jargon. And I love words, so I found that quite scary. But there is a level of self-belief and a little bit of dual-alliness

within your self-esteem that one needs to do something huge, anything big. You really do have to fucking find that, those big, rooty parts of yourself that cannot be knocked. The things you just know about yourself, which is, I don't know I can build a business, but I know that I can do whatever I put my mind to, and I can give people things they don't know they need. But there are parts of ourselves that we know won't be knocked. It's always good to hug them. I think that's so true. And there's a difference between confidence, which you've just described

beautifully, and that like reaching for that part of the ego that's like, I might be wrong, or like, I might be living in an inflated place with this, but actually it's going to get me over the line of something. That all sounds really healthy. I think what we're doing sometimes in this society and with all the messaging online and stuff is like a confusing confidence with this narcissism. And what I've realized is true confidence that you've just described comes with having enough and narcissism, which is this inflated sense of ego, comes from lack. Lack, exactly. If you're meeting someone who's overinflated, they didn't get the thing.

Yeah, or they haven't found it yet. Or they haven't found it. Fine, Olga, what do you ask for it, darling, on this bloody beautiful afternoon with you? Bloody beautiful afternoon. Come on, for our last question on Listen Bitch, or more recently known as Bitch Listen, make it a good one. Make it a good one. Boost our self-esteem with this question, okay? Hey, Zoe Makita. My name is Connor and I live in Sheffield. I love listening to the show

Makita and I'm excited to hear you on the podcast this week, Zoe. On the subject of self-esteem, my question for you guys is, was there ever a time where you pretended to feel more confident than you really felt in the moment? Have you ever practiced a fake it till you make it approach with self-esteem and do you think it works or does it not? Thanks so much guys. Well, I'd like to talk about auditions with you, which you were saying were a little bit different for you because in Anna's share, they would come to see you guys play rather than you go out to lots of castings, equal auditions. But auditions, I imagine have been throughout your life in some form.

Big part. They are so horrible. There's nothing more awful. I do not understand. How do you deal with that side of your like constant life? I don't. Those judgy little rooms. Those judgy little rooms, little beady eyes staring at you. Yeah, it's just so pick me, isn't it? It's just the pick me syndrome. And now I've been away from acting for a long time,

I see so many of the deeply unhealthy parts of it. Yeah, the hell. And now I find out I have like this rejection sensitivity dysphoria. How are we going to work that in? That wasn't manageable for me. But weirdly enough, I didn't really mind if I didn't get auditions. It was more like, that interaction with like the man in the corner shop was awkward. Was that my fault? Like that was mine.

That's what would play on your mind. The big rejections, I'm like, I'm cool. I'm rolling with it. And then the small ones would be like, I I'm gonna be thinking about this for one year. What about if this is what I can't imagine what about if you get really close to a role you don't get it someone else gets it and then you watch their life inextricably change. That's tough. Because of said role. That's tough what's even tougher is if you turn something down and it turns out to be like friends and you're like It's tougher as if you turn something down and it turns out to be like friends and you're like... And I'm so bad at that.

I mean the list of my list of those ones is quite... Stop it. You're making me feel like Jonathan Ross or like a Danny Miller book. I'm like, oh, could you tell us one? I would love to tell you one. I don't know if I can tell you it. It's really big. And when I say it became, it changed culture. Oh, okay. It changed culture and I was at

home watching this unfold and I was like, Oh my God, it did lead to quite the mental breakdown. It better fucking did. Is it a film or a TV show? It's a film. It's a movie. It's a movie. It's a big movie. You have to say it.

Anyway, the movie was called. Oh my God. See, I know why you might've said, no, I don't think I wanna do this. It was complex. It was a divergence. It was roads upon roads upon roads meeting. And ultimately I was like, there's too many reasons that I have to walk away.

And then had to watch that whole story unravel. It was changing culture. It was changing. Didn't it bring cinema back? It brought changing culture. It was changing, didn't it bring cinema back? It brought cinema back. It kind of, it felt, it uttered in a new wave of language and just cultural highlights. Thank you for telling this story. It's really important to get it out.

It's important because the fake it till you make it question, that is every day. Not just if you're an actor, but I feel that every day. Every day I'm like, I am faking this. I don't know when the time or age or moment comes where you're like, it's in flow. I'm good. I'm moving from a place of true knowing. The fake it till you make it. I don't know what I would do without it and I'm really glad that I have the psychological means to actually do that because some people don't, some people can't fake it. Well there's lots of versions of it isn't it? There's that Jennifer Aniston film Picture Perfect, another 90s hitter and she says, the whole film is about her not faking it till she makes it, dressing for the job that she wants, not the job she has.

So she gives makes this whole lie about the life she has because she's sort of told by her bosses that you're not stable. We don't trust you with the promotion. Yeah. So I like that idea of sort of dressing for the job. I definitely use clothes to get higher up in my career for sure. I think clothes are very powerful. Well, that's good. That answers, that answers the listener's question. What times do you feel that you're really having to fake it till you make it?

I love, I... Red carpet is one of them, to be fair. Oh, God, I fucking hate it. TBF, that's one of them. You do that so well. You do. I suck. No, I suck. No, I suck. I cannot do the right face. You are brilliant at it. I cannot do the right face.

You are brilliant at it. No. I cannot do the right face. I don't know what happens. I just always go into like, I just can't do it. And I have a friend, Tall Phoebe, who just does this stance. She's a model, obviously, but she stands legs apart, shoulders up, direct. And I'm like, who, I do that and I don't look the same. You've got to believe it. But the other version of Faking It Till You Make It, Dressing For The Job You Want,

wait, there was another good one. Faking It Till You Make It is a really, it's actually, I think, needs to be framed really positively. Definitely. Because I like the way that we're talking about it. At one point I was like, imposter syndrome is my life and I can't come out from under the spectrum of imposter syndrome.

Everything I do, I feel like I'm an imposter. But then reframing it and being like, maybe an element of fake it till you make it is quite good. Oh, I just remembered the thing you just took me there. Okay. Good. Is it Shakespeare? All the world's a stage and all the men and women merely play it.

Yes. Like every, it's not faking it. Living is play. It is. It's all just, we're all just playing this game called life. So I think that there isn't really, it's not got its own section, living is faking it. So you make it. Faking it and making it, the second half of the sentence, what is the making it?

Well, the making it is just feeling safe. Peace. And peaceful. You know, don't make it bigger than that. Like fake it until it feels real to you. Oh, thank you for being here today. Thank you. Bitch listen. You already, bitch listen. I'm inspired. I'm inspired by you. I really have to reflect something back to you, Keats. And it's so clear through the course of this conversation and other conversations that we've had, that there's been so much shared experience and lived experience. I just really, as someone who didn't, you know, none of us, you know, brown kids growing up in the 80s and 90s and

2000, we didn't have a lot of people to look to. We were cobbling ourselves together through, you know, lots of different icons and people and suddenly someone would break through and that would suddenly change the game and you, you know, feel like the playing field was shifting. And, and you were one of those people for me. Whatever you feel about the visibility that you had at that time and the work that you were doing at that time, it has inspired me. So anything you feel about me, I feel like I've got so much from your presence in this industry and world and now I get to know you as a person. Everyone wants to be your best friend and Bob's not your best friend, but I'm like, I know you as a person, everyone wants to be your best friend and Bob's not your best friend but I'm like, I know you, I'm like, I know her, you know, not in a creepy way,

I'm like, yes, she is excellent and guess what? I know that bitch. I know that bitch. She likes me. We get on. I would usually be like, oh stop stop, stop. But today I'm actually going to say thank you very much. And I, and I can't say the rest. I was going to try. I was going to say, I think the work that I've done is, it has been powerful, definitely for young mixed race people. And I'm black people and brown people. And I'm really happy to that.

That if I died tomorrow, I did that. I was part of that in some way. That really means a lot to me. I take it in. I hope we've helped some people today. And when you come back, because I think we might have to drag you back, even with baby in tow,

we'll drag you away from your kid that you're breastfeeding. You're like, sorry, Lily's taking me home. And we'll probably call it bitch, bitch listen, when it's out, we're doing it. And no other guest, friend, person that's done this with me has incurred a name change of an item, which is so loved. So well done you. It's in the intonation.

It's everything is intonation at the end of the day, isn't it? You can say the same thing. Bitch listen. It's very good. Yeah, your tablets are coming. Zowie, thank you so much, I love you. Oh, love you, proud of you.

The theme for next week's Listen Bitch is... Clubbing. Clubbing. The number is 08000 304090. It hasn't changed. It hasn't. Zoe Asher, you wonderful woman. Go well. Thank you for the questions. Peace and love to the world. Thank you for those questions. Thanks for listening to Miss Me with Lily Allen and Makita Oliver. This is a Persephoneka production for BBC Sounds.

Our culture can cancel someone in the blink of an eye. Celebrities, sports stars, politicians, influencers and royalty can all find themselves in the firing line. In the age of AI-generated evidence, lawsuits written in legalese you need to pass the bar to decipher, how are you supposed to separate the fact from the fiction? That's where we come in. I'm Anushka Matandodawati and this is Fame Under Fire from BBC Sounds. We'll myth-bust, debunk, pre-bunk, fact-check and get to the truth behind the timeline. There are new episodes every week, so make sure you listen to Fame Under Fire and subscribe

on BBC Sounds.