Miss Me? - Connell’s Chain

Episode Date: May 28, 2026

Miquita Oliver and Zawe Ashton discuss making sex seem real on screen, and how much football means to them.This episode contains very strong language and adult themes. Credits: Producer: Natalie Jamieson Technical Producer: Oliver Geraghty Assistant Producer: Caillin McDaid Production Coordinator: Rose Wilcox Executive Producer: Dino Sofos Commissioning Producer for BBC: Jake Williams Commissioners: Dylan Haskins & Lorraine Okuefuna Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

This episode of Miss Me in The Blazing Hot Sun contains very strong language, adult themes, sexual discussions and two very, very unapologetic Arsenal fans. North London forever. That's it, babes. Well, I'm from Grove. Welcome to Miss Me. Jordan has an international summit in Brazil. Of course he does. So we have our favourite sidepiece back.

It's chaos from one household to another. Zoe Ashton's back. Her house is full of shit. going on and so is mine. And we're just trying to make it work today, aren't we? We're juggling. We're just trying to show up looking fit. Can I just say?

On top of everything, sorry, we also have to make you look fit. You look fit. You look fit. No, you look really fit. That top and short combo has me. Thank you. I'm distracted. I was trying to do like kind of if dazed and confused did a surfing film.

I don't really know what I, like, something 70s. You absolutely nailed that. Maybe a bit like, what was that skating film? Dog Town and Z-boys, you get me. Is that like rude dog in the dweeb? No, Zowie. It's like a naughty skate film about a 70s skating moment. Oh, understood.

Right. Okay, yeah, fit guys. So basically, fit guys. That's what we're going for. That's a deep cut for the fit check. There's also, I feel like there's something about the 90s TV sitcoms that we were touching on one of our last listen bitches, right? Which always were characterised by having the fun visiting character.

Oh yeah, you're like the funky returning character. And the funky returning cameo. It makes me. I love that. I am Jazzy Jeff to you and Jordan's Will Smith. Oh, you and Jordan Atier and Tamara. And I'm Roger. And you're Roger.

If you can come down with us to a sister sister reference, then you'll be having a really good time right now. And if you can't, I'm really sorry if you don't know what the fuck we're going on about. I'm sorry for you. So tell me about the chaos of Zawi's life. Busy household, babies. But you also throw in a heat wave, which I was told today was actually, it's called El Nino, which is like...

Yeah, that sounds gangster. Yeah, it doesn't that sound like... heat where we had that. El Niño is a temporary phenomenon, but its impact on the climate might not be. You get me? Yeah. Not only last weekend did we have heat in in our country right now, but also, Arsenal won the fucking premiership. North London forever. I wanted to actually do a really soft, jazzy version, Ella Anne Hathaway's viral. online. What was that rendition?

What was that rendition? I appreciated the sentiment. But what is Anne Hathaway doing supporting Arsenal? Did anyone know about that? I was so pleasantly surprised and thrown and just delighted. Made me respect the bitch. Make me respect the bitch. Respect level just went up.

You know, Zora Mamdani putting on the Arsenal scarf at one of his recent addresses. The Arsenal Spider-Web. And the Arsenal roots are very, very deep. Yeah, yeah. And there's a real breadth when it comes to the supporters of Arsenal. You really saw that. And look, the journey has been long. And, like, friends of mine were even sending me, like,

celebration videos of people in Kampala, like Kampala. And that's where I'm from. You know, I'm half Ugandan. So when you sort of are seeing the scope of the togetherness at this moment is bringing, I do find it extremely emotional. as an original gooner, you are just, you're floating on a cloud. Like, if you were there from the beginning or your own beginning. I very much wasn't.

So I feel like I could only half this like, I've stopped saying we. I've stopped saying we. I can't do it anymore. Because I, as I've said to you, privately, my arsenal love comes from men I've slept with. And I've slept with a lot of Arsenal fans. I just have to be, I just have to be honest. I slept or dated a lot. of Arsenal fans. And for me growing up in West London, the boys that I was around, they didn't

really care about QPR, which would have been the Labrote Grove, Notting Hill team. It wasn't like that. But in North East London, I remember it was like Tottenham, Arsenal, West Ham. And you grew up in Hackney Proper. Yeah. Yeah. In Hackney Proper. Hapr. Right. So you know what this really means to this part of the city. I do get emotion talking about it. because, I mean, like we've been saying on, you know, the episodes that we've done together, right? Like, nostalgia is just getting me in my chest. They are kind of overwhelming. And to think about it being 22 years wait for this kind of borough pride, North London Pride, North London togetherness.

That's right. You know, the scenes unfolding are... It was just so special at a time where they're trying to divide us in this. this country. That's right, actually. And you know what? Arsenal are bringing us back together, babe. We're not separate.

That's right. And do you know what? That is football. That is football at its best. That's the great game. Football at its best. And I wonder how many texts from your ex hookups or ex-boy friends did you get. Was there some reflect?

Was there a moment of reflection with these fuck boys when they were like, do you know what? We've won the league and I've just been thinking. I really should have been badly. No, to be fair, I thought of all of them, all of my past Arsenal loving, lover conquests. And I thought, I'm really happy for you. I bet you're really happy. But in turn, I thought, what a bloody good time to date an Arsenal fan. What a damn.

Because they're just going to be in such a good mood. I have the original Arsenal fact. So my route to Arsenal was familial, not sexual. And so I basically was born into an Arsenal household. I've got my dad here today helping me out, who's just the original gooner. I grew up with pictures of the Arsenal boys on the wall. You know, it was, I feel more like an Arsenal wife than girlfriend. I can't be messing with every single game.

I'm not going to say I'm watching every game. That's girlfriend behavior, okay? I'm like, proud wife. I'm happy for you, but also the dishwasher needs emptying. Let's keep it moving. That's such a good way of describing it. I can't even exactly. To be fair, I need to give myself a bit more credit.

I have been last month since about, since I was about 28. So it's been about 14 years. It's not like, it's not six months. So what's going on now in your household with your children? Are they just straight up gooners? They are born as gooner? Born gunas. Is your partner a gunner?

Listen. He is now. Tom. He interviewed Artetta the other day. What? We used this speech that you gave on Sky News, you know, on Sky Sports as part of the locker room like G up primat

That's amazing Does it make you fancy him more? Seems. It's kind of hot. It actually is. I think I love managers. So I love my Arsenal but if you're asking me what the heart of Arsenal was for me

it was Venga, okay? Whose name was basically the football team. Arsenne, his name was Arsenal. Nelwenger. Someone must have realised that before. There should be some sort of chant that brings Arsenal and Arsend together. We'll write that together. I think I fancy Pep more.

Interesting. Great guy. Great guy. I was never Sven, Goran. See you. But with Arsene, I feel like he introduced this incredible psychology. He seeded the psychology, I feel, that has taken 22 years to blossom. You know, introducing new diet, you know, no more burger in chips before.

the match we're going to be doing some Japanese French fusion cooking. Yeah. We're going, you know, we're going to be thinking about the psychology of football. We're going to be thinking about the spirit of football. But on the, do I find, you know, Tom's Punditri, New Era, more sexy, there's something managerial about it. Which is the hot vibe? All he needs is a sort of full-length puffer coat.

Duvee. Puff-cote. And I'd be like, uh, uh, uh. It's a managerial puffer. It is hot. It's this beautiful time for football. You know, I was looking into a little bit of women's football, because of course we had these glory times with the lionesses.

Actually, women's football is ancient, not ancient, but bloody old. Bloody old. I think it's like 1800s at some point where the first football, female football game is, and it's in Edinburgh. And then it's not just like, it doesn't just phase out. They ban it. I didn't realize it was banned between the 20s and the 70s. And I don't even know why said ban is lifted, but it is lifted.

And then again, of course, the 70s, it still takes us another 30 years to get to this kind of moment of glory for the lionesses. So I think that there is this exciting time for football in general, but also for football to not look like it always has. And to grow with the times, God forbid. To grow with the times. And we've sort of talked little bits about like our relationships as women to like. like sport and our bodies and fitness. And I'm really, really happy that I get to live in this moment because I think there's just been so much baggage around women and sport.

Yeah. And women and fitness that isn't about looking a particular way. I mean, you're super fit. Like, you're so fit, Keats. And you love sport. I love sport, but I still have to sometimes explain to a very smart person that's in my life what badminton is. because I just think there's a lack of knowledge sometimes

about like what sport is what and what rackets it uses and whether it's a shuttlecock or a ball and then you know the history of those sports and how long they've all been around and then you get to the real barriers which is and who should play what? What? Do you know what I mean?

Like we still don't have a heady number of young black tennis players. We still don't. I mean we do have some. And that's where football really I think that's where football feels like such a comfort level as well because you see these multicultural men and women working as a team representing something that should be so much more ingrained within our actual society.

And then of course you have those extremely horrifying, unforgivable moments where black players specifically are targeted with just the most disgusting forms of racism for missing the same goals as white players, you know. And then that opens up a whole other conversation about, I don't know, whether it is a great game, you know? Football does mirror the country and the history and where we are at that time in our lives. And as we were saying for us in the 90s, growing up and seeing like football cards, anyone else remember those? I swear my cousin Theo and his friends always had like these football cards. And I remember thinking, oh my God, because it would say where the player was from.

And I remember thinking Manchester United and there are people playing from Italy. I don't get it. And Theo was like, no, they're from everywhere. And it's where you saw diversity live. That's where you saw diversity in football teams. Isn't that funny? But it's also where you saw some of the worst racism. So true.

When you mentioned the 90s and that era of football and how we were also coming together with the musicality around the game. Oh, how dare you, Sally? It would be remiss. How dare you segue us to Vindaloo? It would be remiss of me not to segue. Yes.

To some other icons of football culture. Yeah, God. Unexpectedly, for sure. Your mother and father. My mother and father. I mean, I don't know whether I should be more embarrassed or Lily should be more embarrassed. I say Lily. But Lily's dad did drag my parents into this embarrassing ride.

But I mean, you know what? It's very Keith to sit around in Grouchos with his mates and write some stupid song about a curry. And it go to number one and become a. huge World Cup anthem. But he, that is what happened. Lily's dad wrote Vindaloo and suddenly it was everywhere. Everywhere.

And on the day he was making the music video. He was like, girls, will you come down to Hotson Street? We're going to film this video. Thank God me and Lily were like, I don't want to do that because we would be in that. And like, my mum and dad are in it and that's quite enough. As the pearly king and queen. As the pearly king and queen.

Because I suppose everyone's being. Slayered. Classic English characters. And then also. also their modern sales. It was layered. Their appearance was layered. That song was a cultural launch pad for so, like so much.

But then I was thinking, what was my favourite football anthem? And I had to dip a little bit further back into New Order. Oh, shit. Yeah. We're singing for a run. I think Keith's in that as well. Isn't that Keith as well?

And he's in that. I watched the. video and I was like, is that Keith Allen? Keith Allen was the face of football in the 90s. It was extraordinary. I read up on it. And it was like, apparently he was like, New Order was like, we're kind of like just indie and cool and we don't really understand football.

And because he was known sort of on the man, I think also in the Manchester music scene and known for kind of being connected to football, he was asked to come in and co-write. And so he's just in the video. Bring those worlds together. Yeah. I wonder whose idea it was to say now. John Barnes.

John Barnes. Please wrap for us. I don't know how. That doesn't matter. Come on. It doesn't really matter, mate. It doesn't matter. You're black.

It will work. Let's go. No, that's kind of a tune. I am proud of that of Keith sort of doing that because he's such a lover of football to make himself the face of it for the entire decade of a really interesting decade for football. Very impressive, Uncle Keith. Very impressive.

In retrospect, at the time, we were just embarrassed. But now, retrospectively, I'm really proud of him. And while we're saying well done, I do really want to say well done Lil, actually, because she won a sort of outstanding achievement at the Ivan of Evelos last week. Oh, heaven. But actually, what they wrote was so great.

It wasn't just outstanding achievement. It was outstanding song collection. An award for having built one of the most distinctive catalogs in British music across the last two decades. Casual. The casual icon award. Cultural Definer Award, sure. I mean, I think it's a really, I was in Sri Lanka when she found out she was getting this.

But she was so emotional when she called me in January to say that this was happening. It really, really meant a lot to her. I don't know her. And I don't know how she feels about the album that is obviously like snowballing into this cultural phenomenon, is it? I would imagine there's a part of it that feels so unbelievably personal. And you're working through that as you go through it snowballing into a cultural. And so do you need to take those moments where you're like, I just need to possess this for myself again.

Like, thank you for the accolades. I know this is a career accolade, but maybe she's at a point where she's like, the career success also just has to live within my own. Zahui, you couldn't be more right. Yeah, you couldn't be more right. Like magical time, but it's a lot. And especially when you weren't expecting it,

like that first few months, I think it was just like, we were all just like, whoa, on this roller coaster. But now it's very real. now she's a touring pop star made a distinctive 20 years of music that has culturally changed for it and like you might need to lie down to take all that on board

whilst also licking some really deep serious wounds in the public eye, right? Yes. Pussy Palace is a song that I really love from that album and the, you know, the bit that goes, I thought it was a dojo, dojo, dojo, dojo. I now use that little refrain

in my daily life when things go a little bit wrong like I've missed the bus. I run for the bus, I miss the bass. I find myself going, dojo, dojo, dojo, dojo. Do you know what? I think that's exactly what the Ivor Novella's meant when they gave her that award.

It's like, she just is in our culture now in such a defined, heady way. There's no escaping it. I'm really proud of her. I'm really proud of her. I'm like auntie proud because I don't have no right to be proud of her and not knowing her at all. I can't believe you've never met.

But I am proud of her. We've never met. You've never met. We all need to go for a walk. Like, you two would really like. each other, let's do that. I feel like her album and the way that she talks about sex, and I know we were want to talk about sex

in different ways on, you know, today's episode. I feel there was such a truth to it in a obviously, like very messy, complicated way that we don't often get in the British culture with regards to portraying sex and intimacy. Okay, hold that thoughts, Eric Ashton, because that's just a wonderful segue into where we're headed on today's.

episode of Miss me. Dojo, Dojo, Dojo. Let's have a break. To miss me, it's all about to get really arty and sexy. Because it was Cannes, darling, can. And someone I worked with, someone I worked with said cans. I said, darling, they'll think you're an unconscious swine. It's Cannes. No, S. The S is silent.

When in doubt, drop the S, darling. I'm swearing. It's Cannes, darling. It's Cannes, darling. Oh, Cannes. Can, right? International French Film Festival, you know, sort of highbrow place of wonder and delight and curiosity.

Like some of the best independent film has come through Can Film Festival over the last such of 70 years. Correct. And I've been, and this actress hasn't. What? Very much on the non-invite list of Cairns. Yeah, but.

Maybe it's because I, once called it Cams by accident and that you get a black mark by your name or something. You must have said cans somewhere far too public. They said, she's not coming. Oh, God. I'm laughing so much. I don't know why I'm getting this flashback years ago. I just did a bit of modelling, right? And there was a French model who was wearing, who was wearing like a quite inexpensive

outfit, but you know, like back in the old editorial days, they would throw in like a high street piece that would sit alongside the more high end. And we were being asked of this really low budget. shoot, I can't remember what for, what we were wearing, because again, old school, you were just asking, write it down and then, you know, do the credits later in the editorial. And I can't remember what I was wearing.

I said what I was wearing. And then they asked her what she was wearing. And she was like, I don't know, let's say, Dior. And then her top, she looked at the label and went, and Georges Azda. I was like, wow, that sounds like a good brand. Sorry, Azda. Hold on.

Oh, brand. Is it Georgia Azda? Florence and Fred. But the way she... I mean, I love supermarket clothes, but babe, it's not French. But the way she said it with her French accent, I was like, I need to get me some Georgesseus. So it worked both ways.

The British saying the French words we murder, the French saying the British we elevate into a place. But if you are listening, today's Missed Me, and you'd love to be part of the international jet set crowd. but I do beg you to just say can and drop the S. And then they'll let you in. No, I went like in the shittest way you can go. I went like T4, like not invited to anything.

Like me and Steve Jones, like just like at can doing like doing like links from like the side of some weird party that we weren't allowed into it. It was awful. But then Lily came and she was famous. So I kind of jumped on her shit for a few nights and went to a few parties. It's all very glamorous and lovely. But Zowie, if I was you, and this is how I really feel about, like, what you do and where it takes you in life, like, you want to go to Cannes because you're in a film that is killing it. I mean, if Show Park are called tomorrow, and we're also dropping the D might I add on the showper.

Is this what you do? Drop the last letter of every word. But you will be pushed off the super yacht. You're into the sea, White Lotus style. Funny enough, the next White Lotus is in Cannes. And I wonder if that might be one of this story. Yes, the new White Lotus is Cannes, isn't it? Is Cannes, darling.

Yes, I got, well, I did a good few auditions of that one and didn't get it. Can you believe? Maybe I said Chopar with a D. It might be the Miss me curse because Lily auditioned for White Lois when she was doing Missy and she didn't get it either. I'm really sorry, guys. You see. You'd be so good in White Lotus.

Why would I be so good? It's because I have a sort of a comic tragic face, essentially, that I feel like that program really kind of like treads the line all the way through. I don't know what you mean. But also I feel like when there is a British person that everyone in Britain knows and they're in it, there's a real sense of like, yeah, like when Amy Lou Wood did it. Yeah. Yes.

Yes. Theo James. Will. What's that brilliant writer called? Oh, yeah. Will Sharp. Will Sharp. I love Will Sharp.

I love Will Sharp. He's actually a mate. I love Will Sharp and I love his wife, Sophia. Do you know Will Sharp? I do. No, Wilshire. Oh my God. Like when he wrote flowers, I thought it was the most interesting Channel 4 drama.

It's sort of dark drama. Yeah. Excellent television. That was a really good show. But you're right. When you go to Cannes. Thank you. You do want to go for that 20 minutes standing ovation where you get to basically have all your unheeled wounds.

Totally. Temporarily covers. I feel like king for the night, king of the day. Kuing for the, yeah, you're not, I'm not, if I go to Cam, I'm not leaving without the palm door. Exactly, that's what, this is it. But yeah, you're right. I'm jeeing myself up now. Some sort of diamond brand got in touch, we'd probably go.

But it would be nicer to go for the palm door. But I remember these crazy things about sort of like, what did Cam mean to me when I was younger? And obviously, because I'm interested in the origins of everything, there is quite an interesting reason that can exists. We have to do origin story of cat. Yeah. Good, because Mussolini's there, so is Hitler. The Venice Film Festival exists, and it's sort of influenced quite heavily by Mussolini,

who is, you know, a well-known fascist, I think we can say that, of the time, and was making quite propaganda-led film. And in response to this, the Cannes Film Festival was created, which is beautiful, because it has been an extremely powerful force in independent cinema,

but also independent film. thought. And I remember these sort of sexually explicit and illicit, dangerous films. Yeah. Suddenly being all over the kind of media, you'd hear about them, particularly this Vincent Gallo film called Brown Bunny. And Chloe Savigny does an unsimulate, is part of an unsimulated 15-minute sex scene where she is giving oral sex to Vincent. And I remember there was a furor-aure about it. Can, horrified by this film. I mean, I remember thinking, fuck it, hell, this must be intense.

I've never seen the film. But then it made me wonder, and I think you're the only person that could answer this, as someone who is not only an actor, but has been part of a sex scene. What's the difference between unsimulated sex scene and simulated sex scene?

Is one actually doing it and one is pretending to do it? Correct, correct. When the lines are not blurred, that's exactly what it is. And you're right, Kahn sort of ends up taking it. up this bit of cultural space in your mind, doesn't it?

That is really unique. And we talked about red carpet a little bit on one of our last episodes. This is like the blood carpet. Like the carpet is red because people are out for blood. Serious high end. Let's just be completely honest. It's where, as you say, cult classics go to become bestsellers. Yes.

And there is a rebellious feeling to it that is unbelievably delicious. It feels like, American stars that we know and love when they go there. They're kind of on manners. Yeah. And it's usually because they're in some sort of dangerous film they've made. I remember there was a film called Love with Gaspar, by Gaspar, No. Gisper, no way.

And No way, even. And Carl Glozman is in it and he's so fit. And that, I think, was real sex. I mean, it's, well, so many things go through my head right now. It is the place where people who maybe have started to lose some cachet, with more commercially driven movies are going to re-establish their own, as you've said, sense of danger, sense of indie, you know, indie kind of prowess, indie sensibility.

And you're right, nine times out of ten, that comes because of having some serious sex. Serious sex on screen. Intimate, dangerous interaction. And what is your experience of sexual scenes, the process of making them? Because I remember I talked about it with Lil and she hadn't really done one. It's interesting because the line we're trending at the moment is we're sort of like indie versus commercial.

So there's the indie sex scene experience. And then there's the commercial sex scene experience. Right. And how do they differ? And I would say they're two quite different flavours. And how can I explain this really without wandering too much off the point? I want the truth, Zowie. The indie films are the ones that we're talking about that get the 20 minutes sounding ovation.

at Cannes. There has to be some kind of raw vibration. We're using the innate vulnerability and sort of existentialism around sex to create the emotion within that sex scene, within that film. Right. For example, blue is the warmest color, right? It's probably one of the most notorious celebrated films of Cannes in Cannes history. And it's kind of because of the seven minute simulated, but it looked so, unsimulated sex scene between Leia Seidu and Adele Exotropolis.

But how do you dance that dance? When you're in said scene. They were in an environment with that director, Abdeletev Kashish, who ended up winning the Palm Door, but joint win with the two actresses, which I think was a very, very smart move on behalf of that board, right? because at the end of the day, what he asked them to do,

what they ended up doing, I think was almost self-directing this film into a female gay space, which he ultimately benefited from. Yes. I think that one seven-minute sex scene took about 10 days. They're going on record as saying.

Now, I can tell you as an actor, that's a weird thing to have done. To have to keep returning to the day and returning to that. To have to keep returning to the day. because you'll often turn up at work and go, oh God, today is the day of the sex scene, and you'll do the sex scene and you'll get through it in whatever way you can, and then you'll go home.

And why am I saying get through it any way you can? Because it's always awkward. There might be some kind of misconception around it being genuinely arousing. And maybe for some it is I can't speak to those people. I don't want to know those people and they don't know me. No, but what I can't get my hair around is, I've seen you have sex on screen and I thought it was sexy. Right.

In wonder lust. In Wonderlust. In Wonderlust. I was a very awkward sex. It was deliberately awkward. Yes. Sort of scene that happens. Yeah.

Written by a friend Nick Payne who writes awkward sex. Sorry, better than most people. Right. Brilliant TV show. If you've not seen Wonderlust, Zowie, it's Tony Collette and it's Emma Darcy, who I have a very big crush on them. I have to be honest.

I saw them in real life once and I hid. Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah. And it's about the unraveling of sexual relationships in long-term marriages. It's just about sex and relationships. It's just bloody, brilliant.

Yeah, opening up a long-term marriage. Yes, yes. And actually it was quite ahead of its time. And it was punished. Yes. Because of that. Look at that. And that was only about, what, seven years ago?

Yeah, yeah. People didn't want to see a woman of middle age taking the reins on her own sexuality. And you're right, that was only seven years. It was so weird the response to that show. Loved it. And weirdly enough, that sex scene, I was in a hotel. I can't remember why, travelling for work, and turned on goggle box.

No. And they were watching me having sex in that show. Oh, no. Oh, my. And I was like, the time space continuum is broken. I'm in the TARDIS. That's so art eating itself in your own life. It's like meta backwards or something. Like, I don't even know how to describe what that was like.

When you're an actor and you're really proud of something, obviously you're going to watch it with your parents or like bring them to the premiere. Have you ever had to sit through a sex scene that you're in with a parent, with one of your parents? Lord, have his mercy. I haven't sat through a sex scene with my parents, but there was a time in my life where I was getting naked on stage

a lot and simulating sexual hacks. And my dad would always say at the end, Another radio play for me, darling. Close his eyes. Close his eyes. Very good. Very good. That's a good one from Paul Ashton.

That's very good. To go back to what does it mean to be doing those scenes on screen, right? So these two actresses do this amazing film, Blues of Woman's Color. They have this long simulated sex scene that is made because of the environment in which they're being asked to make the film to make it seem as real as it can be. And it's raw. It's so raw. Like I remember going to a matinee of it at the Curzon

in my pre-life, pre-kids life, when you did shit like that. Switch to the cinema on Wednesday afternoon on my own. What? And even the sound of the sexy, it was transporting. And because it was these two women, I actually felt extremely,

I felt very aroused. I'm going to be honest. I never thought, even though I know the ins and outs of what it could be taking to make that scene, I never felt worried. for them and then cut to their can journey

and they come out as saying we basically felt like we were used as prostitutes. Shocking out. But also give me that palm door because this film now deserves to be seen and remembered rather than put into these like caverns of films that sometimes are being relegated as almost being too pornographic

and therefore not having artistic cachet. So it's like it's important that the work was made that the art was made but the process of said art being made is always something to be observed and regulated and regularly checked. And I suppose that's when we have the intimacy coordinator. There's also really tragic tales about sex scenes that were simulated but were made to look extremely unsimulated. And one of them is a unconsensual sex scene that takes place a rape scene in this film Last Hango in Paris by Bernardo Bertilucci.

which has an actress who was 19 at the time, Maria Schneider, acting opposite, a 48-year-old, Marlon Brando. Marlon Brando, right. And she understood that the scene would be simulated. However, they conspired in private, against her, essentially, because they wanted to capture these real-life reactions. And they added to the scene a detail that I find horrific,

which is Marlon Brando's character using a stick of butter as lubricant, and she was so distressed and traumatised by that experience and so distressed and traumatised doubly when the film came out and actually ended up being this huge success that she became a drug addict, she barely worked again, tried to take her own life. I think she earned about £4,000 from that film, whereas Marlon Brando ended up earning about $3 million

because he had a contract that got him sort of back-end... Royalties. A back-end fee and royalties. And that is like a really prime... example of how wrong this can go and how serious it is when you step onto that set and you are essentially blurring the boundary between life and art in that very, very vulnerable way. Absolutely. And how a story can change because I know about the stick of butter, but I thought it was used in an amorous way in a very different love scene in that film.

Like, do you know what I mean? I didn't know any of that, but I knew about the butter. Do you know what I mean? It's like these details. God, that is horrific, Zowie. It's horrific. And I've never been in that situation, but I've been in not-nice situations on sets with sexual scenes where you go, do you know what? I feel like a pretty strong person

and I can get myself over the threshold of this bad behaviour, essentially. There's so an element of survival there. And, you know, I just want to say to younger actresses, sometimes you're made to feel as though you have to do these. things you'll be in these contractual conversations you're made to feel if you don't do it a bit like in life right you're prudish you're not open you're not going to become the actress that you really want to that actress that you want to be that can opening film 20 minutes signing ovation you know actress and if you ain't comfortable just say no in life and art no is your friend

no scene is worth taking over your mental health, point blank. Yeah, really, really well said. And I don't think I've heard actresses talk about this enough. Maybe in print, but I don't feel like verbally I hear actresses talk about this enough. Or actors even. And that did usher in, I think, the beginning of the Me Too response to the predators within our industry, finally, and the introduction of these interbicy coordinators. but if you're asking me what it's been like to make sex look real on screen,

I will tell you, like, it is a little bit like prostitution. Not that I know what that's like. You do feel used, to be honest. It's not really an other way to it. So it's fair, you really would love, like, to have, like, a bonus on top of, like, the sex that you have to simulate in the thing. But you're covered in glycerin, you know, often because it's this really sustainable way to kind of create sweat. You have these takes that you're doing and people are coming in with, you know, spray bottles of water to top you up, you know. This is if it's kind of vigorous, you know, in lovemaking.

This sounds like a pretty intense sex scene. And what about, like, seriously, what about nakedness? Like when you think people are naked in bed together, are you? Often you are at a pretty good level of, of. nakedness and with so intense simulated work for example the two girls in blue the warmest colour had prosthetic vaginas made to create a barrier between because they go there you know and there had to be some kind of barrier so that it didn't cross into the question mark okay god I'm learning a lot in my experience I've had everything from a nude thong to a stick on pair of

jelly. Bobs. Jelly boobs. Which is pretty, it's pretty exposing, isn't it? And I think, like, tuned so much of this out. Would you know, I even think, even, even kissing, right? I was thinking about the other day, I was thinking about when I was kissing someone.

And I was like, who was looking at us? Who saw me kiss? And I thought, God, it's weird. When you're in a kiss, you're so in it. You forget about, I wonder what I look like kissing. And then I thought, but for actors, we've seen you snog and you have to see your self-kiss. You know what you look like kissing, which is quite strange. Can I tell you the worst experience of that? My first on-screen kiss was in the bill, age 14. Can we just? Oh my God. I was

14 in the bill. Some sort of runaway. My boyfriend had committed a crime and I was like hiding him or something. And then we had this kiss at the end of the episode. And because he was so much smaller than me, he had to stand on an apple box. Oh, bless him. To cut me. my eye line within the camera frame and that was humiliating on so many levels and then we had to do this kiss and I barely kissed any boys in real life what the fuck?

And I was like oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god like no tongues because you're only 14 do they say that? There actually weren't any rules that it was just like go for it I mean it was so lawless back then but like you're saying when I watched the episode back I was mortified I was like is that how you can I have a complex now about my own kissing style.

No don't worry as a 42 year old I don't want to see myself kiss. You know, I was it. There was a scene that I did in a film called Velvet Buzz Saw with Jake Gyllenhaugh, who's thankfully a very lovely humor. Wait, wait, wait, just get you just kiss me. I knew you were in a film with him. I didn't know you had a sex scene with Jake's sexy-assed Jillenhole.

What? He flied with me in a junket once, and that's all I have. So let's go with your story. I only bring it up not to drop a name on one's foot. But I was so nervous before this scene and some very kindly people in the production gave me they're going unnamed because I don't know if you're allowed to do it but everyone does it.

Just a couple of mini bottles of Prosecco. Did you have a drink? Yes. In my trailer while I was getting all these stickies put on me, right? So I'm like drinking from these little bottles of Prosecco getting these hoisting, you know, stick-ons on my tits and around my vaginal area. Oh my God, so intense.

And I suddenly was like, and it was like a night shoot, so it was about 1 a.m that we were starting the scene. And I was like, I'm feeling quite tips. I'm not going to lie, I'm feeling quite tips. And I got to set and I was like, well, at least it's going to help me through this scene. Classic, classic Zowie scenario. I get there and I start to undress.

I'm like, okay, you know, just get in the bed and do it. And they were like, no, no, sorry, we've actually decided to do a scene from tomorrow, which is very much fully clover. two pages of dialogue that I didn't know. And you're like, and I'm fissed. So I actually can't. I'm actually like just coming out of the club ready to have.

Why is she going to do the bereavement scene from tomorrow? What? Like I don't have time for this. Change of scenes. Dely beloved. We are actually gathered to. Do you know what I'm saying? I'm saying.

Right. So when you finally did the sex scene like four weeks later, how was it? It was absolutely fine. Jake's a respectful actor and we had an incredible crew on that who were also extremely respectful and protective of me and I had an amazing makeup artist and dresser who just made sure I just felt so unbelievably safe and held.

Wow. And it was fine, but it's like the weird breakdown in your head when you're walking away from that scene and I did end up doing it rightly in the end, completely without my miniature proserco. because I learned my lesson. Right. But what I guess that miniature prosaco is about

is not just this Dutch courage to like do the thing in the first place, right? But it's also to quiet the noise a bit when you walk away from the scene, maybe a bit like when you walk away from a hookup where you're sort of like, what has happened? Yeah, now I'm going to start dissecting it and feeling it.

That's when you start feeling it. Yeah. And that's when the work comes in, I suppose, of like, how do I choose to feel about what just happened? 100%. The scene with the dialogue actually ended up going well

and that's where I've got to say guys, even though I drank some tiny Prosecco's before a scene, I am a consummate professional. Yeah, I bet you're bloody are. There's no situation I can't override. The scene actually went really, really well. And it was an amazing lesson actually in...

Again, it's a life and art thing. I think there is some level of extra confidence that I need actually in scenes, that aren't as visceral. And I was like, this is an interesting support system for a scene where actually I just have to be much more natural and sometimes I find that harder. So the Dutch courage actually got me across this threshold

that I never would have thought I needed like a little of extra loosening for. But put me in contact with something where I was like, oh, I find being totally natural and long dialogue scenes a lot harder than maybe rampant sex scenes. Yeah. Yeah. And that is like life actually. our nervous systems can be triggered and put into a weird place from so many things

and not always just the things we think. No way. Yes, it's the intimacy and vulnerability versus the primal. Yes. And an innate primal instinct. Exactly. Exactly that, actually. And then when you will go to the premiere, obviously make sure you have a lot of Prosecco in your bag for the second way. Yes, yeah.

And a blindfold for dad. So it's still a radio play. I just don't even tell my parents. when I make things anymore. They're just like, how are you? What have you been up to? Have you been in LA? And I'm like, yeah, but nothing happened there.

Don't worry. It doesn't matter, Dad. Don't worry about it. How's the Arsenal? Yeah, exactly. Straight back to Arsenal. Okay, we're going to actually end there. Because I think that's a really good way to end this.

I went down a spiral last night and I mean we were going to talk about this a bit today. Oh, you're the clit test. The clit test. But I ended up going down a spiral of normal people. Did you watch normal people? Oh, fuck yeah. And I was with everyone, horny, locked down, and I'm really happy for some sex scenes.

And I felt that really struck a European chord because sometimes in like Hollywood or like, you know, British cinema, we're like zooming out to take in the whole body before the sex scene and it's very male gazing. Whereas this was like zooming in on the intricate details. We were, you know, we were seeing the fingers caressing a ringlet. We were seeing, you know, the shoulder blades. We were seeing Connell's Chain.

I want to use Connell's Chain as the new clip test. I was just going to say, very good. I was just going to say we did. It was so made like that that Connell's chain becomes a phenomenon of itself. And that's about those gentle, intimate close-ups, which were part of the sex scenes. You're so right. Those sex scenes were so hot. They were so hot.

And Tom was like, do you have a crush on Paul Mesgur? I can't say Paul Meskul's name without saying his name is the tequila. Mezgal. Paul Meskill, not Mezgal. Is it not a mezcal? Is it mescal? He's not a tequila. He is just a human being.

And I was like, I don't have a crush on him. Me either. I don't have a crush on him. I don't fancy Paul Muscal. I have a crush on Connell. And even deeper than that, I have a crush on Connell's chain. Yeah. The chain, that little whisper of silver answered so many questions in terms of what are women looking for in desire.

Yes. We want that soft tenderness mixed with, mix with the masculinity. We don't want that toxic overbuilt, like. You know, sprint down the middle and get to your end girl. We want to be held tight, but handle gently. Absolutely. Stronghold, but gentle touch. Something in there.

You've got it. It's Connell's Chain. It's Connell's Chain. The episode might have to just be called Connell's Chain. And you know the great thing is, every fucker will know what we mean. Yeah. And that's the power of Connell's Chain and the intimacy in normal people. Thank you. Zawi Ashton, that does lead me into foreplay,

which we absolutely don't have enough time to talk about. So can we please talk about foreplay when you next come back, which, I mean, depending on Jordan's schedule, we might need you in another week. We'll see. I mean, in terms of how I think the two of us do foreplay, this is a good place to start it, and maybe in a few weeks we'll be around.

We've sort of set the seed. Remember, the day you plant the seed is not the day you eat, the fruit. So the foreplayed fruit will be in a few weeks, but this is us very much planting the foreplay seed. Excuse me. Excuse me. Excuse me. What a great time was had today in this baking heat.

You were the kind of, that was the kind of chat I wanted on this hot blazing day. I'm feeling some, I'm definitely feeling some things. Okay, the theme, Zawai Ashton will be here for Listen, bitch, don't you worry? And the theme is also a little bit sexy and dangerous. Or not, depends on where your questions get us. It is. Taste. And I can wait to get a taste.

I actually cannot wait to get a taste. Nice of this days. We'll find you back on Monday, Zahui Ashton. Thank you so much. I love you. There's all my heart. You're the best. You're sexy.

You too. Thanks for listening to Miss Me. This is a Persefonica production for BBC Sounds. Our culture can cancel someone in the blink of an eye. Celebrities, sports stars, politicians, influencers and royalty can all find themselves in the firing line. In the age of AI-generated evidence, lawsuits written in legalese,

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