Miss Me? - Dissecting Celebrity Traitors, and the Cornell 7 Story

Episode Date: October 8, 2026

Celebrity Traitors, thank you. Oh, the unbridled joy of watching people actively deceive each other for entertainment in a Scottish castle, even if one of those celebs (Amol) blatantly disregarded the advice that Jordan texted him. Needed that lightness though to counteract the heaviness of the news, because we couldn’t ignore the Cornell 7 story. Both Miquita and Jordan had a lot to say about how triggering that unfolding story has been, and why it horrifyingly speaks so much to the female experience. Get bonus content and recommendations for things to watch or read or listen to from the Miss Me? Library every Friday at patreon.com/missmeFollow the show on instagram and TikTok @missme.4evaYou can contact Miss Me? on email at [e-mail] Presented by: Miquita Oliver and Jordan Stephens Producer: Natalie JamiesonTechnical Producer: Oliver Geraghty Assistant Producer: Katie-Louise Buxton Video Editor: Danny PapeProduction Coordinator: Tom JacksonExecutive Producers: Sam MichellMiss Me? is a Persephonica show Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Mekita, I want to look at some comments from last week's episode. The comments are littered with people who have fascinating aptonyms, like mad. Littered. One of them is the president of the Royal Horticultural Society is called Keith Weed. Oh, wow! Someone's got a gynecologist called Fanny? No.

Dr. Fanny. So my tattoo artist, Tiana. Mm-hmm. She says her name translates as Fairy Queen, and she specializes in tattooing fairies. Didn't know that. My comedian and friend, my comedian friend said Joey Essex. Yeah, I mean, yeah, he's from Essex and his name is Essex.

IVF doctor called Tim Child, PE teacher called Miss Quick. But what comes first? Well, I guess the name came first, but like the instinct to do it or because you've got the name? An art teacher called Miss Drew it. That's crazy. That's good. That's crazy. That's good.

Miss Drew it. Okay, this is got a. be fake this one. Terry Boot replaced Peter Foote as the finance director at Shoes. I... Shut up! These are incredible. A dinner lady called Mrs. Stewart, fuck off. I'm done now. Welcome to Miss Me, everyone. How are you feeling on this, in this terribly hot October that's making me worry. Just a little. Why? It's, I don't know where you are, but it's boiling. And it's actually October. I forgot that it was October because it's so hot. I do kind of, I have a loose memory though, like a warm Halloween a few years ago. Sure, the climate change issue has been

happening for a while. But I just feel like this, this kind of heaty summer just, we haven't had that where it just goes, okay, now it's cold. It's just still very warm. Earlier this year, it was fucking freezing. But anyway, we're not here to talk about the weather. Why not? Why can't we talk about the weather? It's right. Well, not when you're sitting on your hands in, anticipation, like a child at Christmas to talk about, well, the messiness of the Cornell 7. We'll also be talking about celebrity traitors because nothing else is happening in this world

but from celebrity traitors. I saw seven people on my street watching it yesterday at the same time, obviously, which felt really beautiful actually and uniting. And what else we're talking about? Oh, I wanted to talk about Sharon Hogan's new show, Youth. Yeah. I've done the fucking menu.

You need to do the other bit. What's the other bit? You need to tell people where to find Miss Me. Miss Me, forever. That's right. Across the board. Four, the number four, EBA. Yeah, just get us on social so we have careers. I don't think that that's necessarily true. Just click loads, share our shit. The fuck do you mean? If you like the show, share it so we can survive. Like the fuck. Support your local podcast. Support your local podcast. It's actually more apt. Go on Patreon and then we'll give you

loads of bonus shit. It's fucking great. It's investing. It's like, this is socialism. So, to veer away from the social the socialism aspect of Miss Me we're going to head directly into the celebrity obsessive part of Miss Me which has been what's the right word? What's the celebrity obsessive part? Is this because I told

that one story the other day about like being at a Jimmy Car Party? Is this what is now celebrity excessive? No I quite like that story actually I thought that was great. Celebrity. What is celebrity? Who cares? Well the name is in the title. Celebrity Traitors is very much about Well, Celebrity Traitors is a different thing. That's very much about celebrity. Yeah, but it's top tier. The crystallization of celebrity, if you will.

It is a true... Celebrity Traitors is the greatest unifier of celebrity hierarchy on television. I know. I mean, it's amazing, isn't it? It has usurped the attempted boxes, like that separate, whether that's class, race, television show, age. It's like, fuck, all of that shit. Like, all of you guys can lie.

Everyone lies. Everyone can lie. Lying is actually very democratic and equalizing, isn't it? Everyone lies. Sorry, democratizing and equalizing. Yeah, maybe that's what the backbone of the kind of obsession for celebrity traitors is, because not only do we see ourselves so much in the darker actions of, you know, the game of traitors, I think there's something that I don't know

that makes me uncomfortable about watching people deceive each other. Why? I don't know. It should be entertaining. You work in entertainment, no? Yeah, exactly. Maybe it's too close to home. Oh, hey, it's so good to see you.

I really love that show you just did. Maybe it's too close to home. I'm like, we're all such a bunch of lying bastards. But I really love the idea that we had, we have this TV show now that, like, everyone says yes to. It's actually an honour to be asked and to be part of this. Like, every time someone came through that door into the church, I was like, Jesus Christ. They said yes. Jesus would say yes.

Let's just talk about this mix. Jesus would be like fantastic. lineup. Yeah, but you know, he was, he experienced an unfortunate level of of traitorhood, but. Yes, he would understand the game of traitors. He would, yeah, he'd just be like, is Judas there? Yeah. And who would you say in this phenomenal lineup would be our Judas? Because we've got Michael Sheen, Maya Jammer, Bella Ramsey, fucking Grant is there. Do you mean who would make the best traitor? Because obviously they've picked the traitors. Yeah, I suppose

Judas is the traitor of the story of Jesus. Yes. So, yes, We know everyone knows Richelie Grant and Maya Jammer at the traitors, but who would you have picked as your Judas? Who would I have picked as a traitors? Yeah. I would have been interested to see Hannah Fry as a traitor personally. Just because she, I love Hannah Fry. And I love Hannah Fry.

It's really interesting seeing like academic, academic people in that context. Like Stephen Frye, another Frye, oddly, connected by Fries, that he in the previous celebrity traitors, obviously the world of expectation on his shoulders ultimately didn't do that much. However, the one observation he did make was really accurate, which I thought was kind of cool, which he identified that the traitors would probably be more tired than other people in the show and then pointed towards Kat who was sleeping in the day all the time. Very good.

He was actually right, but Kat managed to subvert it by just saying she had ADHD and then no one had to go near it in case they offended. Also very good. Tush. They're like, I'm neurodivergent. And they're like, oh. Yeah, too-shay. Yeah, she's taking naps because she got ADHD, which is also a thing, by the way,

it wasn't completely false, but she was, she did evade. She has ADHD and that is a thing. You can go through like big dips in the day, but like, wow, what a side step because she was 100% a traitor and did a very good job. I heard great things about, I had great things about Kat as a traitor last year.

She was brilliant. But you've told me that you love Richard E. Grant and that you were laughing alone in your bedroom. He is killing me. Like, Mikita, he walked into the traitors and they said, are you a traitor? And are you a faithful? He went, no, I'm a traitor. No, but it was good though.

I liked that he did that. This is the whole hoo-haer of the first kind of evening that they're all together when he was like, they were like, faithful traitors. Like, traitor. I was like, in it, no fucking traitor would say that. So say it. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, McKita. I promise you, why it's so funny is.

You think you fucked it? It is not a game plan. It's not a good tactic. No. It's not like, there's no, there's no, like, the reason why everyone is so confused is because if you're a faithful, what, what is the game plan of telling someone you're a traitor? Like what, literally, what's the game plan? Yeah.

The only, the only game plan would be to confuse the traitors into. To confuse. Into recruiting you. Like, that's the only, that's why it's so funny where people are, there's like four or five people being like, no, we really should vote out, Richard because he's just told us that, like, there's, there's, there's no game plan there. Like if you were a traitor, like, like for example, Alan Carr won the previous traitors and the best thing he did was kill Paloma Faith at the beginning because him and Paloma were besties. They're besties. So the whole game, people were like, can't be Alan because he

killed Paloma. Like that's how, that's how to do it. You got to do some mad, that's how to fuck on people's heads. God, Alan Carr, you McAvellian genius. Right. It really was. And that's why it's funny with Richard Lee Grant because there isn't really a way for it to be a smart move. It's just now they're just doing massive damage control and people are going like, wait, if they've killed Amel then it must be because Richard is

a traitor because he was just saying. But they go, no, but if it's a traitor they're trying to make it look like Richard's a trap. No, it's just Richard. Like it's hilarious. It's genuinely funny. So Amel's dead. Can I say there's something funny as well? So Amel actually messaged me before going on traitors.

Oh, this is something that we probably have pre-faced our entire conversation with, which is, as I, as I watched it, I don't think there's anyone I know that knows more people personally in this particular series of traitors. By the time I saw Leanne come in, I was like, I feel that's why I got swerved. I think so too much of your gang are there. No, but I don't know everyone that well. Obviously, Maya, I know well, Leanne, I know well. And Amel texts to you. That's three out of 20. Amel, I just did his radio four thing. So I, so he, but he messaged me. Can I just read this out? Please.

He said, yes, bro, I hope you're good. I'm doing celebrity traders with Leanne. Excited to meet her. Heard her chat on a podcast about her book and Jade and race was mesmerized. So he's just saying like, yeah, Leanne, you know, I'm looking forward to meeting her. I said, I'm so jealous. I was really close to getting it. And this is what I said to Amo, right?

This guy's Radio 4, right? University Challenge. That is not a joke, right? You best believe, no. Remember, keep your head down. even if you clock people don't bait yourself up because you'll get taken out

play dumb if anything this is what I said to Amor Rajan what does he do he goes in and starts interrogating Richard E. Grant in front of everyone and gets taken out and Richard E. Grant

marks him day one Richard E. Grant and Maya have to come to the decision to take him out because he was and I've messaged him again going what did I tell you I literally I said to him. I went, he messaged me about something else.

And I went, secondly, what did I tell you about keeping your head down? He goes, mate, I did. Everyone was going at Richard. I think he was trying to be brave. Or no, maybe trying to be up front and overly confident. And then just fucked himself. If I'm there, right, and Richard Lee Grant walks in, right, hilarious as he is, constantly wearing scarves. I don't know what's underneath those scarves.

I'm worried. I don't know. Maybe he's got like a mad neck tattoo of like a Rockweiler or something. No, he's just chilly. If he comes in and goes, I'm a traitor. Do you know what I'm doing? Nothing. But leaving him and leaving him alone.

No, I'm doing nothing. Yeah, do nothing. Do you know who's going to get to the final? Oh, go on. No, go on. Who do you think? Miranda. So kind and unassuming.

I just like, look, you just got to fly under the, like, you know, or someone like, I mean, that Jerry. Someone like Leanne could do that quite well. No. You sort of kind, sweet, and then suddenly you're like she's in the final? No. No. Okay. No.

Oh, maybe, actually, maybe. I don't know. Actually, I actually can't comment because if I thought hard enough, I would, I would, anyway. But like, yes, it's, it's very entertaining. And I did an award Amel specifically him. And he went out first. I can't believe it. Yeah.

It's such an obvious thing that would happen. Like, you're on radio, you're on university challenge, bro. Like, play dumb. Come on. You need to be more CIA about it. Like, say nothing. Say less. Or be like Ross Kemp and just be paranoid.

Say less. Or be paranoid like Gron. Gron. Gron. You got on him Gron. Sorry, I can't. That's Ross Kemp. No, that's not.

as Ross Kemp, he has been, he has, you know, he's faced the drug lords of Mexican cartels. And he, you tell me, was more terrified by Leanne's little rub on his shoulder. He was, he is, he's studied, he studied the show. And he's so paranoid about being killed in plain sight. It's really funny. That's good. But I've been worried about Ross since, since his reaction to England winning the quarterfinals. He might have PTSD from all those gang.

shows. I'd probably have more PTSD off being on Walthford and EastEnders for so long, no. Oh yeah, I'm still calling him grunt. Although, I'll tell you what, with this current housing market, that's where I'd buy a house. What's it called Albert Square? Albert Square, boss. That might... Do you imagine those prices? Like, I think we said this already, right? Someone dies once a year. Don't worry about that. I also really like the girl from industry. Mahalia. Mahia.

Mahia, she's great. And I think Jerry Hall's very good. I love that you're looking at your note. I love that you sat with traders and written notes. I think Jerry Hall's very funny. Let me put this down for Miss Me. My celebrity traitors research, absolutely. I said that Richard E. Grant was delicious to watch. Delicious. And your other, sorry, sorry, so your noted highlights that you've done while watching celebrity traitors, finally, were I like Richard E. Grant.

And I like Mahaila and Jerry Hall. No, I said. I love it. I'm just picturing you watching celebrity traitors and pause you, go, that was. That's funny. Oh, yeah. I said it's beautiful what lying brings out in people. I think it's, I think that is a delicious kind thing.

Even though it makes me uncomfortable, there is something delicious about it, watching what it does to people. I don't think people are drawn to the deception as much as they're drawn to people trying to realize it. Yes, absolutely. It's not necessarily the way the traitors are moving. It's about what everyone else looks like whilst being deceived. Like there's a real truth in being deceived. Yeah, makes everyone seem so innocent.

I actually think this is why I personally love reaction videos on like YouTube and shit. And also Gogglebox. The reason why these things are popular is because someone reacting is truth. Truthfully. No, it just is truth. Any reaction caught in the moment is truth. So I think that's also another reason why people also love podcasts because of even though they are edited, there's more chance that you're going to be engaged.

with a person who isn't heavily produced. You know, with telly, there's, like, constant breaks and constant, like... Yeah, maybe in the old days, Jordan. What do you mean? I just think all podcasts are heavily produced now. They're really not, not, not to admit to, like, if I had to think of my experience of being on telly in comparison to podcasts, I think it's very different. I don't know.

I did some telly the other day. I was like, this all feels pretty same now. We talked about it last week with BBC stuff. It's not good for any industry when there's a lot of fear. makes people feel like they've got to play by certain rules. Why that's why I think people are more drawn to stuff online. Because, because I, this is my inkling. It's just because I think you do, or they're drawn to these moments of truth.

Whether, whatever, what people flood towards is often like a truthful reaction, a truthful response. That's why I say, I watch reaction vids. I love watching people react to videos I already like. I love that. I think it's probably why reality TV became so big in the beginning because it was like, you know, Even though it was like Towie, it was like those people are really reacting. Like, she really did sleep with his brother. Yeah.

She really did fuck him over last night. Like, that, I think, was what got us so early. Yeah. It felt like the truth. Isn't that funny to say about reality TV? Well, I'll be tuning in with the rest of the nation. Nine million viewers, celebrity traitors got. No wonder the BBC want every show to emulate its success.

We're going to have a little break. And when we come back, we'll be talking. about either the new Sharon Hogan show youth or the messiness of the Cornell 7. We'll decide in the break. Do you still not like celebrity traitors? Come on, you've got to be intoxicated now. I just, I've got a really bad relationship with TV right now.

Yeah, but all TV, I mean, you're sure watching documentaries, surely. Yeah, documentaries I love, but like, telly is driving me up the fucking wall. Okay. Because I know too, I know too much. Yeah, yeah, sure. I always wonder how directors watch films when they know too much. What does no too much mean? Like, I know too much about the workings of it

and how things are made and what producers want and stuff. Yeah. Like, I wish I was in the bubble of ignorance more. Oh, it's interesting that affects, rather than you feel like empowered by that. I just watch it feeling empowered by it. No, because I'm like, oh, God, so telly. Oh, really?

Yeah, just the way people talk, the language that's used. With traitors? Yeah, a little bit. Traders is it super camp That's what I find funny Maybe I'm just a bit like I don't know what the right word is Jaded

Exhaited by television Jaded Jaded that time Okay so so the jaded This is a good metric For people to understand Who are listening You're so jaded by television

You can't enjoy celebrity traitors That's like that's huge That's like me saying That's like me going I'm so disappointed With the music industry I can't listen to Frank Ocean Um

Okay if you want to Align Frank Ocean's creative output to the celebrities traitors, that's up to you. Okay, fine. Maybe not Frank Ocean. Maybe not Frank Ocean. Maybe Bruno Mars. No, no, no, because celebrity traitors music.

No, because celebrity traitors had to fight, man. It wasn't just like, it wasn't like a, it wasn't a one time like, yeah, yeah, it got rejected by every channel. Like, literally every, every production company, like, rejected that shit. I think what I'm drawn to is, like, great writing. That's why I wanted to talk about Sharon Hogan and her show, use, just because she reminds how good tell it can be. So sometimes I'm Jaden

and then something, I watch something, I'm like, okay, telly can be good. Both, both things? I watch both things.

I would watch Sharon Hogan and I would watch Celebrity Traitors. Balance. Yeah, balance, temperance. Balance. Yeah, what is my version of great television?

University Challenge. Love University Challenge. Why? Because it's not been fucked with, even with the changing of presenter to Amal, who I think does a great job.

I love that it's still not, they haven't tried to like infant, infantilize it to make it appeal to, I don't know, a younger audience or an audience that they think is, like not as smart. It stays smart because it is, and that's what it's about.

And I like that. Like when it's, I like when TV's not like spoon fed. That's so interesting. I see a lot of infantilizing on television and I really dislike it. I always have. I mean, I hosted a fucking pop music show

when I was a kid, so I was thrust into infant, television and I hated that it had to be all infantilised so I made it not. I feel like my expectations are pretty low in that regard. I think it's okay to have a mixture, you know? Like it was good to have a mixture of those things. Also, by the way, just as a balance of like intelligence whatever, I legitimately thought that those people were on top of each other in the University

Challenge. I thought they were about. Me too. For my whole life. I thought there was two tears to that. And then I seen them zoom out. I went, what the fuck do you mean? And I love that said.

Chopper, what the fuck? I was like, how do they get up there? Was there ladders? Do you know what I think really democratised television well? Gogglebox? Because Gogglebox, especially in the beginning, really made sure that there was a wide breadth of television that all these different kinds of households were watching.

So when you watch like the Mancunian family, what they call the longest running, what they call it, they begin with M and they've got dogs and biscuits. I don't know what their names are. I just see what they look like. And the mum was like insanely good at University Challenge. She was like, I would never usually watch this. And I thought, no, but because Gogglebox are asking you to watch it as a family

and really enjoying it, but possibly thinking that as a family that University Challenge wasn't for them. But actually it really was. That I loved about Gogglebox. I think that really, and also when I did Gogglebox, I really felt that. This kind of like democratizing of television and the way we watch it. and who's meant to watch what? The Malones! Thank you, Nat, the Malones.

Love the Malones. Who's meant to watch what? How do you mean? This idea of smart TV is for smart people and then reality TV is... Smart TV. Yeah, like something like University Challenge. People think that's for smart people.

It's not. It's for everyone. Do you think traitors is for dumb people? No, but I think there are parts of it that are dumbed down and I think that the language that's used is a bit telly. But as you said, it's kind of like a camp pantomime. So it's doing the job of that, really.

Yes, it's definitely aware. I think it's definitely aware of itself. Yeah, I think it probably does have a knowing to it. I think it's got a smirk in it, like, for real. I was a little bit worried, I think, with the revolution of reality television, because I was like, I think a lot of people were saying they wanted to watch TV to switch off. And I remember thinking that's an odd desire, or maybe like a really important reflection, actually, of how overworked everyone is, that they'd rather just not think.

Yeah, but we used to do that. We just did it with the EastEnders Omnibus. That was so switching off, Telly. Yeah. Yeah, but did you have an issue of EastEnders? No, I thought EastEnders was great, especially the Omnibus. They used to love it. That would be akin to...

No, but we've always used TV for escapism, I think. Soaps, though, people would have, like yourself, would have been saying the same thing about soaps at the time. No, we really liked EastEnders in the Cherry household when I lived there. No, I know, but I mean, as in people would have gone, what's happened to television? Oh. These soaps, these soaps are appealing to a lower common denouement. nominator. No, I see soaps more as the fabric of the country and a kind of, like, they're kind of historically part of who we are. I quite like that about a soap opera. I don't know whether they

hold that still. I don't know where the Coronation Street and these tenders are still like part of people's lives in that way. Yeah, probably are. But that's time when I'm not, yeah, they probably are. I always really liked that. I think it's like that companionship of a soap opera is quite important to people when there's quite a lot of... Companionship in what sense? Because of the way it's on, it's on like, you know, four times a week. You get to know these people over years and years. You feel integrated in these families. And I think that that deals with a lot of what people use TV for, which is loneliness as well. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, listen, I did like, I used to watch EastEnders. When I was like 15, EastEnders was so good. There was this

Sharon and her brother, incest storyline that was wild. I mean, that was like 8 o'clock dinner time. Incest? Yeah, listen, the tradition of things has gone out the window, but unfortunately, I'd say the nearest to those traditions is something like the traitors. Like you're talking about that the next day. And as I said, I walked down my street and the whole street was watching. I was like, fucking hell. Yeah, my mum spends so much of her time fighting the world and like the system and injustice. I can't explain to you how much joy it brings me just to laugh of her about Richard E. Grant, genuinely. But that's what I mean about balance.

Like truly, I mean that about balance. Like I think, I think, yeah, it would be cool. I had this conversation with a guy, a great musician once, about like, did radio start playing, in his opinion, shit pop music or did, was there, or was shit pop music so in demand that the radio had to play it? That they needed to create radio, yeah. And it's like you didn't know, there was, it's difficult to know what, what, you know, like, for example, streaming added an element of democratization to

music and all that resulted in some people's opinions was the standard of music dropped. So like, so it in sorry of pop music, which is by the way, I don't know if I even agree with that, but it was just the idea that like, so for example, one of the biggest internet hits, the first internet hit was Soldier Boy, right? And I remember people on a radio going, this is number one. This is number one. Or Rebecca Black Friday. Like it you have to, the people are online. They've pushed for that. You have to play it. You have to that's that is the democratic. voted song, right? So it's like, is our issue with, is our issue with television or is the issue just a reflection of where society's at? Like, are we manifesting the television or is it

the other way around? Well, I think that what's happened is having so much choice has turned our television watching into an immediate need for gratification rather than a place to be forced to watch something. Well, that force thing is important though, isn't it? Like, not forced, but like, there's nothing else on, oh, okay, I'll watch this, and then you're sort of surprised by something that you've watched that you didn't think you... Now everything's like, I want to watch something like this for this moment. Yeah.

But in my mum's day, you just turn the TV on on the Saturday, and BBC 2 would always have a film from the 1950s or 60s, which is why my mom has such an incredible knowledge of that kind of cinema. And she learned things from that kind of cinema being on television at the weekends, because that was what was on. And I think maybe that's why I like, I love documentaries because I remember as a child, a documentary just being on and,

and it being so entertaining and learning so much from it. So this idea that I can now watch a documentary whenever I want, about whatever I want, is I suppose my version of bringing the kind of immediate need for gratification and curiosity together at the same time. So yeah, I need it immediately. I want to watch something about Stevie Wonder. But also I know that this is something,

that I learned early would feed me something that I might not know I needed. No, but can I say another thing though, which is really another, I think, important point in terms of the evolution of television. I saw firsthand as a teenager the actual genesis of the television series, that's what blows my mind. So like I had to, bear in mind when I was a kid, right, it's like 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, there was these murmurs from HBO, like murmurs, right? So sopranos. People are going raw, sopranos. And they're saying, but prior to that point, it's just soaps, right? Soaps and like kind of low budget, rubbish, like crime, whatever, like, you know, or you might have like X files. Obviously that's not rubbish, but you have these like kind of formulaic contained episode, multiple series, law and order, season 85, right? And then suddenly these people are going, no, there's five seasons, it's done. That's powerful. It's done. Four seasons is done, right? And then I'm watching that. Then it's the soprano. Then it's the wire, right? And then the wires are early 2000s. And then you're hearing these things like,

yo, this is like a vibe. This TV. So then I remember my friend sent to me, have you seen Game of Thrones? Like this is way before Game of Thrones was big. It's his crazy show. Sean Beans in it. Da, da, da, da, da. Then I had to go. Yes, but I had to go and find it, Mickey. It wasn't on telly. I didn't have access to it. There wasn't a channel that was showing until people would like, maybe buy the rights. And then just for the sake of enjoyment in this conversation, the pivotal moment, and I can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. The pivotal moment for television series was Breaking Bad. It changed the entire space of television because

just forgot his name. The guy who plays Walter White. Fuck me. What is his name? Brian Cranston. Brian Cranston. Brian Cranston. He, people were like, no way did the fucking dad from Malcolm in the middle

just deliver the most exceptional character. arguably ever seen on television. So now people are lining up, bro. You had, suddenly you got, you got fucking, what's this, bro? The whistler guy who whistles in, in Fingie. Matthew McConaughey, true detective, Maggie Gyllenhaal. She's doing a British accent. That was a whole moment.

And actually, that was a huge moment for, because I remember film actors used to sniff at television. They used to sniff at TV, bro. Now they're, now they, all they want is to be water white. And then suddenly, and now that's kind of like, norm, right? Like, like Kate Winsett doing the mayor of... Tom Hiddleston, I had the night manager. You've got like, you've got, you've got, like, people are there, give me, let me eat this shit. I want to be, I want to be, I want to be

white. And then suddenly there's this competition around like big shows and it's, and that was, I guess, an exciting time. Then it was a right of strike. Anyway, I'm a TV series nerd. We could do this another time. That was then. Yeah, that feels like then now. Right, we do need to talk about something more serious. I have to. I have to. Yes. I'm interested because we've spoken about this before. and you seem apprehensive about discussing something, which I understand. And what it is discussing is this recent case in America

and Miss Me listeners, I'm sure if not 100%, 95% of Miss Me listeners would have being that, I think, mostly female and are very active in a desire for a harmonious world, I think. Yes, that's a Miss Me listener. Well, Lily and I talked a lot in the first year whenever there was a case that involved

sort of like violence against women rape, sexual assault and I felt really proud of us because I didn't hear women talking about that on a mic but what happens is and also I started to feel that we were in service and it was our fucking duty

to talk about these things and what happens I think as a woman is that you get so bogged down in how many of these stories that you hear and how many cases that after a while, it just gets so fucking heavy to talk about it, Jordan. Yeah, no, I know. I felt that, though.

This is the first thing I wanted to talk about with the case, the case that some of the internet people are referring to as the Cornell 7 case, which is kind of a, I don't know how I feel about that name, but a situation where a woman legally known as Jane Doe, for the sake of this ongoing legal action, it is revisiting a previously previous rape accusation from multiple men. on a night. If there's been new evidence, the case has reopened and it has caused, and this is, you know, where I kind of want to get your input, which is I actually completely understand why

you would feel hesitant because there has been a mass triggering, is hugely emotionally evocative for women because of the injustice or the current perceived injustice of the case. That's not me saying my position, by the way. I personally don't think it's a perceived injustice. I, Jordan, think that it is very, what this woman has had to go through is incredibly unjustified and not just what she says that she went through that night, but also the way that the university have dealt with it or the college, whatever you say it, in America. Yeah. And also brought up some... But I think people are triggered, man.

Well, it's brought up some fucking terrifying things around the laws of consent in America. I mean, yeah, New York state law is fucking wild. But I want to know, like, so basically just to explain why I was feeling weird about it was that I I was wary of wanting to just like signal that obviously I mean if anyone listening to Miss me knows my stance or follows my page and I'm very passionate about shifting but like trying to fucking destroy rape culture as part of society it makes me feel fucking sick and I you know it's a tough battle because actually I think the entire structure of our like certainly Western capitalist world or maybe even world is is kind of like assembled around this.

kind of like it's just acceptance of rape you know what I mean just like total like integration almost into um yes I mean I'd like to believe actually though I have seen way more men speak out about this case than that than previous uh cases but I mean it's again it's yeah will always feel like thing especially on the internet with algorithms or always feel like women are just constantly fucking complaining about this shit and hearing and feeling and seeing nothing back from men well it's just exhausting for so yet again someone consent and, you know, fucking the laws around your body and how to protect it. It's just also fucking blood and it just shouldn't be.

Why is this girl wasted out of her, like out of her head wasted? And suddenly that's like, well, it doesn't matter if she was drinking drugs. It's got nothing to fucking do with it. Yeah, I agree. I think that's the most salient point that I think I would like to believe subverts any semantics, right? Like the reality of the situation is, apparently New York State law dictates

that if a person voluntarily inebriates themselves, right, drinks alcohol, takes drugs, right? And also, the ridiculous thing is, once you've taken alcohol, like, are you even consenting to taking the drugs? You know, you're definitely not of a completely sound mind. But anything past that point is considered your own responsibility, basically. fucking hell yeah

fucking hell that which is fucking mental and that is why as women in this country because also Nat sent me something I don't think it's the same in this country I'd like I fucking hope it's not

she sent me something terrifying about consent no no sorry about non-disclosure agreements at universities and institutions of that akin to that only two years ago

I think this was thrown out that they could sign a non-disclosur Sorry, put a non-disclosure agreement into play. Yeah, they could gag survivors. Yes. Like legally. Till two years ago. Just two years ago.

Yeah, that's terrifying. And this is why, as women, Jordan, we live in a certain way. And we've talked about violence towards men and women. But I'm speaking as a woman. Me and Nat, our producer, Natalie, is a woman, obviously. And she lives the same as me, right? Nat is a mother, older than me, with kids. but we live in exactly the same way

when it comes to how we have to worry about our safety as in if you're drunk you do not fall asleep in the back of a cab if your friend goes home drug text me when you get home text me when you're safe that's what you say standardly text me when you're safe and we aren't saying

because you might trip over and hurt your knee or we're talking about you might be murdered or raped because you've had a few drinks and now essentially the energy of the world is you're right for the picking. It's fucking terrifying. And actually I do fall asleep in the back at cabs and go, what the fuck am I doing?

That's how unsafe I am. I can't fall asleep in the back of a car. I'm in a car with a driver who I don't know. And the point is, even if there was like a rational, like even if you were in a particular area or a particularly nice person, even if that was the case, you're validated, I guess, in your paranoia based off of... Based on a story like this. Yeah, life experience.

Every time you think, maybe I'm safe, a fucking story like this comes up and you go, no, we're not. Never, ever, never stop being worried that this will be something that you have to go through at one point in your life. And I suppose one of the sort of difficulties is like I want to speak about things like this. I'm really happy that you want to speak about it too. But as a human being, I'm tired and exhausted from hearing about the brutalization of women constantly. And I hear that. And actually, to be honest, I think it's actually more my responsibility. in this space to have my voice heard because that's, I mean, that's certainly part of the social

media movement is a frustration of the lack of condemnation or, you know, this constant ask for continuous pushback against the, the, the mentalities that. I was just going to say, I think also a man and a woman, you and I having this conversation is always important. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I do. No, I know, but it is tough, right? Because, again, like, you are within your rights to be like, fucking know, mate. Like, you know, I, so what I was going to say was I actually posted like quite a reduced version of this current case in like, you know, how do we live in the world where this da-da-da-da. And it was kind of a signal because I was wanting, like, I know where I stand on that. Like if I, yeah, I just know where I stand in that culture. But when I posted it, I had like,

you know, a lot of, it was like a shared rage in response. But a little part of me with this particular case was like, what am I actually contributing to? to in that moment on social media. Like I know I need to say something as a man. Let's get that clear, right? Just because there are, there are very real parts of this that I can deal with abstractly. So I don't have to specifically talk about this case.

It's like this part of the ongoing case needs to be spoken about regardless. So that's what I'm going to be doing, right? But then there's another part was like, damn, man, this is like, we have access to the worst possible fucking things that are happening all over the world at any point. And I don't, and I also don't, I was, I don't know, I felt like I was worried that I wasn't being useful in that moment. I was signalling, which is fair, but I want to give something more.

So I do have some thoughts that I think could be helpful. Now, I thought about it. But I did think, basically, I empathise of you. I get it, like I thought, I don't want to just traumatise a woman and then just carry on with a day. Thank you for even thinking like that, really. Look, the reason why I'm passionate about it,

and I am aware, and I thank you for, like, not talking about it. it just being clear that it's hard because it should be hard it shouldn't be normalized at all but i think this specific case actually really really unveiled something that um i want boys and men to hear and listen to and it was it's been revelatory for myself because just as a as a disclaimer is i know you know this and feel this and agree with this like one of the biggest issues of men and boys is that as boys like much like we spoke about violence and you were shocked to hear what we normalized as a part of growing up, you know,

whether we've seen hyperviolence in front of us, whether it's happened to us. There are elements of that with sexual assault and with like improper, like, contact between boys and boys between adults and whatever else. There's loads of this stuff that I think is completely normalized out of fear and out of a misunderstanding of their own sovereignty over their own bodies, right?

I can only deduce that those are what contribute to a mindset where a group of men, young men, can be in front of a clearly vulnerable woman and think that that was a green light. Like that's the only, for them to have such a disconnection from their own understanding of vulnerability in that moment, right? And so I'm not saying what I'm about to say as a thing of like men versus women, right?

Like I say, men are huge victims of men. There's a lot of stuff to deal with right now probably isn't the most important time to discuss that. I do want to discuss how that contributes, you know, that this association contributes to boys growing up without this understanding. But in my experience, what I want to say is, you talk about being in the back of a cab, not wanting to sleep, right? I did a lot of drugs in my 20s.

I speak very openly about this. And in that period of time, I was in some pretty, I put myself in some pretty wild situations. And in a few of these occasions, I literally would black out. I would be at a random flat, I don't know, and I would sit down and I'm gone. I work up the next morning, right? And I think one of the realest things is most of the time, because I have had some,

this definitely isn't the right time to talk about it, but I have had some actually very unfortunate consequences from that. But nothing to the extent that this, this young woman's had to go through. But the majority of the time, I've just woken up, right? And I've definitely not thought about what could have happened to you. Yeah. Right. And I have to just accept that. I'm not even trying to fight that. Like I just, I didn't go to deep thinking, you know, I might or maybe, maybe I did. And I've just gone anyway, you know? So like, so it's that. And then, and then there was one moment I had to say when an ex-girlfriend said to me, we were talking about another case, another rape case years ago,

which I did actually public speak out about, I think his name is Cheath Evans or Chad Evans or something. And I think he was acquitted from this case. I'm obviously legally, I have to make sure I get this right. Because basically, him and another man, they took this girl basically really, really drunk. They have sex of, he ducks out of an escape, like a fucking, fucking, fucking, fire escape anyway. It's not so much that he was acquitted because the woman said yes in the moment. It was which might have happened. It was more they provided character. It's actually it makes me feel sick, but they provided a character profiling from two men who had had sex with her around that time who basically added to this idea of her hypersexuality, which undermined

her accusation because they were like, if I'm to believe anything, she wanted it, which again, appalling, in my opinion, for a woman in front of two footballers, by the way, two like big athletes. And then not only did he get acquitted after being found guilty because of these, I guess, this character assessment or that like not or her being unable to prove how drunk she was. He also then sued his previous defence lawyers and got paid for them having not. Wow. And I spoke out about it because it made me furious because I was thinking if you were in a situation as a vulnerable woman with two grown-ass men,

I'd probably say yes too. And at that time, I was speaking to Max about it, and she went, have you ever felt physically threatened during sex? Simple question. And I was like, no. And I remember thinking, fuck. And I actually wrong like three mates. Because I was like, dude, guys, have you ever thought?

Because in that moment, I had never considered the fact that even a woman in a loving relationship with somebody who they trust and care and correct me if I'm wrong please here you have this little cloud in the back of your mind you know if it did go left what are you I understand that but then also I wouldn't have had the fear growing up that you may have had about being stabbed or something

I wouldn't have thought that was a reality in my life of course and that is beautiful as a beautiful example of where we can find that like connective tissue like that's that's the no no no that is that is ultimately how we get how we don't just point fingers and shout at each other but what I think is so important

about that observation right is that I know men who wouldn't even like to imagine the idea of five bigger men being in a room while they're drunk and on ketamine and wanting to have sex with them. Like they don't even want to imagine it, let alone actually being in that situation. We're so, I think, far removed from understanding like what it would be like... That kind of fit. That kind of fit, right. And you said it, you've begun with this, right?

And it's fucking right. is that I don't give a fuck how much ketamine she took whether she did it voluntarily, whether she drunk, like, I don't give a fuck. She could be in that room screaming, please fuck me to all of these guys, like all of you please that you do not do it. Yeah, no quite.

Let me be very clear. That's how I feel. This is my opinion, right, is that the elephant in the room in this conversation, right, for men is that, and I mean, I've thought about this and I want to say it clearly, I don't believe anyone can consent inebriated. That's my point, right?

So I'm not saying people can't have drunk sex. I'm not the people say it can't get high and I'm like, you can, but you run the risk. You better hope you know the person well. You better hope that there's been a communication beforehand, right? The thing we do with our culture, our bingy kind of like annihilation culture that we are scared to confront. And by the way, I was part of this culture, right?

So I'm not saying this higher than mighty is that in any other space in life, any other thing, business, friendship, like, are you going to sit down at a business meeting and watch the person? and drink two beers and then a line of ketamine and then do a deal are you going to agree and then be like let's sign this. You're going to agree with anything that comes out of a fucking mouth. No, you're going to have wished that before the meeting. He goes, look, I actually really do want to have, I do want to make this deal with you, right? But I'm going to be high when it happens, you know, that we really need to start entering that into the conversation

for me, for the protection of women and for the protection of boys. And for the protection of boys because it's like because the argument would be oh they were kept them end up too right well then make sure you have spoken to the people involved and you know what's happening they you make sure they know what's happening the fuck i think it's important that we said that i've said it previously before a little bit i'm not saying it doesn't it doesn't mean that everyone can't just be hedonistic you can i'm just saying you're literally risking like try and agree things ahead of time again in the kink scene this stuff is fucking imperative in a scene where people are causing pain doing group activity. You have to understand boundaries. You have to agree consent beforehand when you're not in an... Even arousal

is considered an altered state in these places. Even arousal. But it is an altered state. Yes, right. And then the final thing I say is like, again, in terms of men understanding the physical difference and who bears the responsibility, right? Like I say to men, imagine going to a bar full of professional boxes, full of professional boxes, full of Everyone in the bar is professional boxer, right? And you go in and you drink a bit too much, right? And I turn around to one of these boxes and I go, mate, your mum's a slag and I'm going to knock you out, right? Whose responsibility is it in that moment to fight or not fight?

I'm a paralytic non-boxer in a in a pub full of professional boxes and I'm shouting everyone out. I'm begging them to fight me. You don't fight that person. I'm telling you. No, that would be stupid. would be a fool and you leave them to it. You have, based on the fact that you have a perceived power, right? Us men, we need to understand we have bigger bodies.

Most of the time we've got bigger bodies. It doesn't have to be gendered, but most of the time, we have bigger bodies, right? And we should feel a sense of honour that comes with those bodies, right? We should feel proud of our bodies in that space. But we need to know that they exist. We need to know our bodies exist because the second we put ourselves in that space, you realise how daunting that can be, you know? And I think it also really reminds me of them.

men in my life that like not only make me feel incredibly safe, but practice that energy with every woman that they know and it's important to them. There's so many men like that in my life who it's part of who they are. It's important to them that they make women feel safe. You know me, man. I'm not fucking quiet. You've met my mum. I mean, if I see this shit happen in real life, I'm saying it. But because I'm outspoken about this stuff, I find that if I'm in male spaces, they're not going to be saying the same shit. Yeah. I wonder if that's a good thing or a bad thing. Yeah, I don't know. Like, I really mean, I can't really remember the, like, anything towards Ladis, Baner, I think, maybe a couple of, like, not to him.

Not over there. I don't know. I don't know. Listen, I, we, we, you know, we'll make jokes, but it's not like, it's not, no, it's not towards what I would constitute as damaging. I think it was really important that we spoke about it today. It's just heavy shit in it. And it's just, I think the main takeaway from this, which is fucking beautiful, is that you, is that you. you, like we're really trying to create this world, right,

where like the separatism is the instinct, right? The reaction is separatism. You're this, you're that. Over there, that's the problem. Over there. That's the problem. Over there. That's process anger.

But I really do believe that the only way to move through it is connective. And those conversations are much harder. They're much harder. Fuck. Yeah. And not everyone is having those conversations, Jordan. Yeah. You know, there was this guy who said online,

again, I don't know if this is the bad timing or whatever, but he made this statement. He was like, Like, nearly every boy you know has been sexually assorted. That was his start. And I was like, okay, this is wild. And then he went, think about it. If you've been in a contact sport as a young man, you would have normalized a level of,

like, bodily, like, aggression. Yeah. And do you know what? Right. I don't even know if I agree with his statement. Obviously, he said that to kind of bring the views in, right? But I immediately had a flashback. Like the second he said that, I remember playing in football in Sweden.

and this guy, was a clicking and throwing, this guy backed into me, grabbed my balls and dick, right? Fuck off. Twisted them. Yeah, this is in the middle of a football match, right? Twisted it, twisted me like that.

And I literally went, oh my God, like, I went, what the fuck? Like that, and I turned out, I went, referee's just, and the ref's like, play on. So there's a general acceptance of it. I'm not saying, this is, I'll be really, really clear here.

This isn't to say, this isn't like, this actually isn't, I'm not trying to connect this, to this, to this, like, what this young woman's gone through and I really hope gets justice for actually especially from the way the university treated her

in response but it's just that guy made that point and it was just interesting to me like yes I had not that there wasn't even I didn't even recognise that as a violation of my boundaries I was just like that guy's a dick you know and then it was like on we go next game you know but that's what I mean by a general acceptance

right yeah yeah and also it's the thing of like you go to house parties as a young man and it's like if you fall asleep you're getting fucked up like you're getting like your face drawn on, someone shoving something in your mouth, taking a video in it, like... Yeah, let's not even going to The Tales of boarding school life. I told you what the guy said to me, right?

The dude casually about going to boarding school, I told you what he said, right? That he went to the toilet. Did I tell you this? No. His grown man recently was telling me about boarding school, and he said his first night there, he went to the toilet in the night because he needed to pee.

He didn't realize that you're supposed to pee in a jar, right, to go to the toilet. Even now? They stripped him naked in front of the entire. tire dorm. Oh my God. And made him either walk up and down a corridor or apologize. And then he got spanked. And I'm like, how the fuck is this a generation of people?

Many of these who ended up fucking in politics, by the way. Yeah. These people actually run the country now. The fuck. Wow. Right. Let's shut this down. Thank you. Thanks for joining me today. Thanks for being here with me today. Let's not end this on it. There is positivity in the world. I believe in people and I believe in the good in people. There's a little movement and I am Jane Doe movement.

I fuck with it. I even wrote that in something I was writing about the whole thing. I fuck with it. We should as men and boys feel that that's us. That's not set for it. That woman is us and we should always feel like that. Well, thank you for joining us for today's Miss Me. Yeah, man. Boom. What are we doing? Calling out the Listen, bitch. What is it? Lying. Lies. I did a Pinocchio story. I didn't know whether that was bait or brilliant. What do you think? A Pinocchio story is good. It's a famous A very famous liar.

So we will see you then. Thank you, Jordan. Love. Fed my soul today. Thanks for listening to Miss Me. This is a Persephonica show.