Miss Me? - Fingering the Void

Episode Date: July 20, 2026

Miquita Oliver and Jordan Stephens answer your questions about foreplay. Expect sexual language and imagery, and frankly a very useful surfing analogy.Next time the topic is MAGIC so send your voice note questions to https://wa.me/447849030711Find us on Instagram and TikTok @missme.4evaExplore the Miss Me? Library of culture recommendations & more at patreon.com/missmeProducer: Natalie JamiesonTechnical Producer: Oliver Geraghty Assistant Producer: Caillin McDaid Video Editor: Danny PapeProduction Coordinator: Tom JacksonExecutive Producers: Ellie Clifford & Dino SofosMiss Me? is a Persephonica show Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I would say texting is huge foreplay. Texting. Hugely. I want like little, little getting it. I'm like, well, I can't wait to get back and set fire to your loins. No, I don't know how that would turn me off. Fingering in the void is one of the greatest descriptions of existence. This is gone beyond foreplay, bro.

This is my life. My life is fingering the void. Well, I hope everyone's feeling hot and heavy. I mean, I'm quite turned on. I don't know anyone else. Keats is like, I need to go to the bathroom. I need to go get my vibrators. Do you know in Tantra, they refer to the penis as a lingam, right?

Do you know what lingam means? No. Magic wand. Welcome to a very special, listen bitch. I've been wanting to do this theme for so long. Oh my God, for so long. We tempered around the subject with blowjobs, but the point of today is oral sex is not the only way to engage in what we are talking about today.

The theme for this week's listen, bitch, is the playing of four. Four play. Interesting word, isn't it? For play. And you know what? It's Freud, Jordan. I bet it is. Of course it fucking is.

Of course it fucking is. It was for pleasure, like four hyphen pleasure. So like, what does that mean? Like, isn't it not before, before play? Oh, of course. Is that what the four is before? And it evolved into foreplay in the early 1900s. But of course, you know, the Karmusutra was a lot earlier than that.

But we'll go into all of those things. I'd love to talk about the Kama Sutra. Oh, people have been doing for millennia, mate. You think? 1,000 percent. I'm sure there's like cave paintings of people sucking each other off. If only we had that imagery to support today's conversation. One of my favorite Twitter accounts when I had it was like a person who had like,

It was like slutty, it was like slutty archaeology or something. I'm being dead serious. That's so good. I'm being dead serious. It'd be like Egyptian, like, it'd be like some Egyptian pot with people just like licking each other's nipples. I mean, I imagine things probably got even fungier. No one's looking.

No one's judging. I bet fluidity was really real. Wait, judging what? You know, like sex lives and how you should have sex and who you should have sex with. I bet there was a lot more freedom. Yeah. No, I believe it. Well, there's, you know, there's, um, is it the Athenians or there's like one ever,

there was like one civilization. See, this is foreplay to me. You say Athenians. I'm like, oh, yeah. No, but I'm saying they're the romantic ones, right? They're like the ones that were like, oh, let's write about the stars and have baths of each other. No, I don't know.

Maybe I'm wrong. I can't remember. No, no, no. You mentioned the romantic. The Spartans were like, rah, kill everyone. And they were like, oh, we write poetry. Oh, we touch each other. Yeah.

We touch each other. Well, let's find out more. Let's all touch each other. Let's get everyone all wet and hard. Wait, wait, Keith, before we do the first question, can I ask you? Yeah. Do you think that I talk down to you too much? Talk down to me?

No, I wouldn't engage in conversation with you if I felt talked down to. That's rude to you, isn't it? That's someone and you would allow such a thing. No, Jordan, I feel that you are a safe space and you are my equal and I love you dearly. Okay, I'm just going to record that and send it to this. fucker on Instagram. Yeah, you do that.

Let's have our phone's question. Hi, Jordan and Makita. Hope you both while. I love you both for very different reasons. I'm so glad that Jordan you have finally confirmed you are a permanent

fixture and there will be subscribing, joining your Patreon very, very soon. My question regarding full play is when does foreplay cross the line to non-penetrative sex. Like, when does it become more than

four player or a fumble? Is there a clear line? Is it a personal choice? What do you guys think? Let me know. Love you. No, first of all, I love you too. Like, that was beautiful. Great question. And some great love at the beginning. And you said you're going to subscribe, so we love you.

Now, what exactly is the question? So this is what we were talking about before, when we were establishing foreplay being the listen bitch. So penitative sex is what has become known as sex, right? That's like what you'd think if you said, oh, I had sex for this person. We would think they mean there's been some penetration, right? But obviously if you extend that definition to like the queer scene, for example, there'll be people who are having sex, but there's no penetration. So she's asking, how do you define the line? between foreplay and sex. And I would say, which excites me, which is why we're doing this, that foreplay itself should be extended. Because if you were to say that the end point is, let's say, all or sex between two people, then I guess by definition of foreplay would start before that. So it's literally before the act that, you know, so that might be like a conversation or it could

be a wrestle or it could be. A little tickle. like a performance. Yeah. I would say texting is huge foreplay. Texting. Hugely. I want like little,

little getting it on like, well, I can't wait to get back and... Do you know what? It doesn't even have to be sexually based. Set fire to your loins. No, I don't know if that would get me going, Jordan. But this idea of,

I actually think it's quite sexy to be texting someone and you're not mentioning the fact that you want to have sex with each other. That is quite sexy. And I think that, is how early foreplay can start. But is the tone sexy? Yeah, because, no, it's not even the tone.

It's the general setting is sexy because you're dating, you want to sleep with each other or you've slept with each other. So just going, so should we meet on Thursday is sexy because what you're really saying is, I may touch you on Thursday. On Thursday you may be touched by me. But you're not saying it, but you're not just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll meet Thursday, cool, cool, cool.

No, it's all about anticipation of what else is to come. So you're saying there's a foreplay in what's not being said. Absolutely. It was cool. I think people would agree with that. There's also a foreplay in What Can't Be Done. Ellie, who was here today that I work with, she was saying that, you know, she's married to Kieran now.

And she was saying when they first got together, she had a cyst on her body. And she got it removed and she was really sore. And she went around to Kieran's. And they couldn't have sex for a month. So they were dating and they were kissing and doing stuff. But for a month, they couldn't have sex. And she said it was so hot.

And within that time, he cared for her. He cared for her. She was going through this cyst removal. And she was like, when this pain goes. When this got, when we get down. I'm a ride you like a fucking bronco. Now that you've cared for me, show me who you are. Let's go.

And it might have been a very different sexual encounter if they didn't have that chance of a month of essentially foreplay. So four play is kind of the best and can come in many forms. But I don't know how to answer that lady's question. I don't know how you would differentiate because of the different spaces of sexual activity. I guess it might be personal. I think some people would say, you know,

if you make the other person come. But again, I think that's like quite a, it's like looking at things for a very male lens. Do you mean? So you think orgasm is the end of foreplay? I don't. I'm just saying, I'm just trying to think of an, you know, some people would feel like something had been completed,

which I actually think that's a massive issue in society. think it's an issue that we base it around coming. Also, women can come, some women can come multiple times. So that wouldn't be like necessarily like an end point. But we have obviously tailored like porn and shit around the guy finishing. I don't think that should happen. Well, no, men can finish. But I mean, I'm saying that shouldn't be the determiner of whether or not sex has ended.

If you're lucky, an orgasm in four place is just a beginning. Yeah, right. Exactly. We're just getting started. I think our definitions of intimacy and sex are. are way more expansive than we have allowed the conversation to evolve into, I think. Correct. You know what I mean?

We got like the black and white thing. Like we had sex. I was inside the person and then I finished and then we had sex. But then it could be like, but then if you talk about fidelity, one of my arguments is that like there is fidelity as important, if not more important sometimes then physicality. Then then like sexual exclusivity. There can be fidelity of the mind, I guess of emotion. Of course, emotional fidelity.

Like they can be, you know, like trying to uphold like a bond between two people. It involves a lot more. It's great that you say bond because Nat just said, is is foreplay having this conversation with your partner? And I think that's a really good point. Great foreplay is intimacy in all ways. And that can be conversation. Massively. I would say conversations in bed with men have been some of the most sexy foreplay ever.

Oh, tell me about your vulnerabilities. Fuck, yeah, okay. Listen, there'll be like a very immediate kind of shallow thing where it's like, you know, sex is like an attempt at procreation, but that obviously excludes like loads and loads and loads of people and the whole queer scene. And then and all the fun bits. And the fun bits.

But so to answer a question, no fucking idea. But thank you for making us think. Yes, yes. Let's have another question. Let's keep thinking. Let's just stay curious altogether and just keep discussing. Hi, Makitzen Jordan. My name's Sophie.

I'm from Bristol, but I live in northwest London. My question on foreplay, this is kind of a hot topic. I've been seeing a guy for like four months, and it's going really well. He likes to receive head. I give him head willingly. I enjoy giving it. But he has only given me head like a handful of times. And I kind of brought it up.

And he was just kind of saying that he hadn't really done it much before. And so I gave him some words of encouragement. He did it and it was really good. And he said he really enjoyed it. He said he was going to do it more often. And then he just didn't. And I asked him about it. And he said that he feels like him giving me head is quite serious.

And we're not in like a serious relationship. Yeah. And like I'm moving cities. He's going travelling. So it's kind of feeling like we're not going to be in a relationship. But for me, like if I'm just having sex with someone, which is ultimately like the focus of a non-serious relationship, right? Then I want to receive head.

I guess my question is, do you have any advice for me? And also, do you think it's different for men and women to receive hat? What a fucking asshole. I was just about to say when she said, oh, and now he's, he said it was really good and he's going to do it more often. I was going to say, look at these guys working shit out. He's in conversation. And then he just fucking retreated back to.

Scared little man. I mean, not even scared little man town. I imagine selfish little fuck town. No, I think the first one. What do you think? There's fear behind it. I think this is fear-based. A thousand percent.

And also, I think maybe like an element of entitlement, you know. It's harder often to go down on a woman. Yeah, okay. So we have talked about this, I think, in orgasms. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really important, right? Maybe to say, like, maybe there are a lot of men that are terrified of giving him because they don't feel like they're going to do a good job.

100% But P.S. Blow jobs are hard too and we had to fucking learn. Yeah, sure. So it's all about learning and wanting to learn. Yeah.

To align head with her as a serious relationship but her sucking his dick isn't is bullshit. I'm sorry. Yeah, it's wild. No, I mean, my advice to her is like get this guy out of your fucking life.

He doesn't know how to build equity in a relationship. Like, that's the point. That's the point. Is that, you know, and also, but I come at it from the other angle where I would just feel too guilty. I don't, I don't know, maybe when I was like 20, I don't fucking know.

But like, I would, I'd be like, wow, this is literally unfair. I just wouldn't be, I just wouldn't, I wouldn't feel comfortable. Have you always felt like that? So you've always been like that, you've always felt that? Nah, I've not always been like that, no. How did you feel about it before? Well, I've always liked giving head. I think that that's something because I remember, I feel like I might have even gone

down on a girl before I even had sex. Wow, Jordan. I don't know, I just thought it would make her happy. Anyway, but like I, I, yeah, I think I did. I seem to remember, no, because, yeah, I did, because the, the girl I did it to then took my virginity. I bet she did. Yeah, exactly.

And then, but, so I've always just like being like, well, if I would like to receive head, I would like, you know, I got to give head. Like, I just kind of, it just seems like a quite a simple exchange. But, but no, but they've gone through phases where I think, like, if someone's been willing, I've definitely got lazy in relationships. I can't, I can't sit here confidently and say I've not been, you know, like happy to receive and like not, like it's been unequal. But like in the latest, the more recent stages of my life, 100% I can't just,

I find it really difficult actually for it to literally just receive. Like it's something I probably should be actually better at weirdly because I am willing to give. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And actually that is for play, giving and receiving. I think it's that exchange that makes something foreplay and not something else. Yeah, true. I will say though, we said in the orgasm episode that,

Or was it blow jobs? Well, yeah, blowjobs maybe. It's a generalisation because obviously it's different, dependent on different men, because some men probably find it harder to come. But as a general rule, I don't know, in my experience, like if you're reaching a point of like orgasm or ecstasy, you can kind of stay there, right?

Like you can kind of stay there. You know, I think a lot of men struggle with the fact that they are aroused and need somewhere for it to go. they can't imagine it dissipating. Whereas in my experience of women, please correct me if I'm wrong, the reason why a female orgasm is maybe more difficult is because it's literally, I wrote actually a blog about this other day. For me, it reminds me of surfing.

Like you have to, it's all about build up and then you have to be super, super aware of like the tiniest movement, rhythm, pace and you have to maintain, you have to maintain this, like balance, like a real balance. to get the final bit. It's like you get into a readying position and then to actually catch the wave, you have to be super delicate. That's very true.

It's like catching a wave. You have to catch a wave, but importantly, if you miss it, you have to start again. Yes, you have said this before, and that really stayed with me, and that is really true. Is it true?

Is it true? Is it true? Yeah, you kind of have to get back to that place. But I really love the catching a wave analogy, because even in masturbation or anything. It's like you are kind of riding and trying to catch that wave and it is almost like a kind of gentle dance. And then you catch a wave. It's like, pooh. It reminds me of surfing because because we're surfing, right, you have to paddle, this is what I said in my blog. You have to like

paddle into the, into the ocean, right, which is hard because there'll be waves coming against you. So it's like you're, you're paddling in, which is tough. So for me, that's like the beginning bit where you're like trying to establish what part, you know, women have different parts of their anatomy me that they find exciting not all women find things the same some women are more sensitive unless obviously i don't know is this manspanning i don't know no no no no i think it's really important i think maybe i've seen more vaginas than you probably i mean why would why would i have seen more than you but like you know different sensitivity different parts of anatomy different things different pressure and like so you're like trying to establish it find it out

da da da da da da and then you enter into a place where you're like okay i'm i'm now in the ocean yeah so there's a possibility that we can get there, but I have to watch for when the wave's coming. And when the wave comes, I have to make sure that the timing. Yes. I have to stay in it, stay present. And then once the wave, you can see, because in surfing, you've got to look at the tiny wave there and you've got to know that it's going to be bigger once it gets to you. And when it gets to you, you've got to paddle, jump on a board balance, and then you've got to go in the right direction. If any of those things mess up, you get totaled by the wave and you've got to start again. That's right. So too much pressure, too much speed. This is a clip.

You know, and too much whatever. This could really help a lot of people. Well, I think for men, we will think that we've failed in something if we're nearly at that point and haven't caught the wave. So for some men, it's easier to just dismiss the entire thing. And be like, I don't like surfing. Fuck surfing. It's ridiculous.

You're an idiot. It's not for me. Yeah, your waves are shit. No, but that's not even funny because that does happen. Like, people will like ridicule the person instead of, yeah, yeah, yeah. vice versa too. I've got a friend who got, who was like verbally abused by a girl because he couldn't get a bono, you know? And she was like, what's wrong with you? Oh, God. No, it is, oh my God. It is scary when a boy doesn't get hard though. Because because she internalized that

as her being not attractive when it's not that at all, it was just, he was just panicked. It's just panicked. We're complicated. We're complicated beings. We're all complicated. Let's have another question because I need a moment after the, after the wave. analogy. That was fucking beautiful. So my substack. Can you not put all your fucking brilliant head wave analogies on your substack and bring it to miss me, please? I just did.

Thank you. Hi guys. My name's LJ and I am from Birmingham originally, but I'm living in Sydney now. So I am happily married. The last couple of years I've been with my partner for six years. And his thing is he's really super keen on giving me oral. It's a real big turn on him and he like is just consistently like I just would do it any day any time like you know it's always available to you and he sometimes gets a bit like I just don't understand why you're just not like constantly tapping that because anybody else would be really appreciative of this idea but like hey don't get me wrong he's very

good at it but like it feels like it puts a certain amount of pressure on me that like do I have to enjoy it where do you sit on that you know if the partner is super happy to give it that the other partner should just be consistently tapping that or do you sort of see the idea that like actually if it was always there and it was always like a such a big deal that it would actually kind of become like a sort of stressful thing and like in no ways he like pressure me into anything but it just becomes this running joke between us where he's just like i feel like any woman would just be like amazing and you're not thanks so much for keeping me entertained while i'm on that leave so thanks

Bye. Oh, they just had a baby. Right. Okay, this is probably a good time to bring up fingering. It's about bloody time. Because I'm not even like that huge on head, and we've discussed it. It's probably because I haven't had good head that often.

It's also just the idea of it doesn't drive me wild, like fingering does. And I just feel like it's died out a bit. And it was such a classic, like, you know, like biggie, like finger fucking. I feel like it's died out a bit and it was such, it's such a classic, like, you know, like, Biggie, like finger fucking in the park. I feel like people talked about it in songs and stuff.

It's huge in the 90s fingering. Please tell me it's still huge. And I think it, but even fingering, which I love so much, if it was on tap all the time, it might be like working in a, I don't want to say butchers. That is weird, yeah. Because I think I've got an analogy for sex before. But like, well, do you know what I mean? if you're around something all the time, if you're a butcher, you don't really want to eat steak

every night. And I remember also with like drugs and stuff. Yeah, it's the law of absence, isn't it? It's like it is. Exactly. I know. It's just like a human thing. Maybe it's just it makes it less interesting. Scarcity adds value. Scarcity adds value. Interesting because I feel like scarcity adds panic. So like if he stopped giving head all together, I'm sure she would panic. No, so I don't agree with this, right? I believe in abundance. I genuinely do. I think like the idea of that being accessible is, oh, I'm just trying to imagine. Anyway, I think like, you know, it's cool, it's sweet. I'd be cautious about, I don't know, something doesn't sit with me quite right in terms of like the offering being from a place of love, but the lack of utility of it being questioned. I think that's like,

I don't know what that means. Something in that is. What you mean, her questioning him? Yeah, like something in that is confusing me. Like, I feel like maybe there's a part of me where, like, if I've been like that, you're not doing it maybe maybe for the right reasons. Like, you're, it's like. Intention. It's like maybe you're doing it because you want to be valued more or like,

or you're being good or you want like. And so if the person isn't being like, yes, I'm going to use all the time. But I mean, like, yeah, the unfortunate, like painful reality that we're, you know, accustomed to believe in is like, like money, for example, is based off of gold, right? And the only reason why it's based off of gold is because gold was more scarce as a gem. Or whatever it is. I don't know what the fuck it is.

Chemical compound. I don't what the fuck. Rock. I don't know. But whatever it was, there wasn't that much of it. So, you know,

so that's why it's so valuable. And to this day, if you buy gold, you're probably going to, you know, get, you know, have more money.

But like, if you, if you didn't offer it all the time. But, but I don't know. Yeah, if I was him, I'd kick back a bit.

Maybe he is really enjoying it. But I think he has to look at his intention. and why do you want to give her head so much? I think you can say it, you can offer it, but you don't have to like continually offer it. I don't know. And also offended that she doesn't want to accept all the time. It's quite complicated.

It's like that's losing the sexiness of it. Yes, that you've nailed it. That's what it is, right? Is there's something kind of hot. Okay, this is what I feel. You can know that about the, about being outwardly giving. You can know it. But there's still more.

to play. This is what we're talking about. This is this is for play. There's still more, there's still more consciousness to go into it because if you're not getting the response, right, you can play into that and that's hot, you know. Maybe if, maybe if he goes, oh, oh, you don't, you don't, you don't want it on tap. All right, I'm never going to give you head again. I'd be like, come in now. How's that? That's hot. You like this mouth? Well, it ain't going to be done there for a year. You're being punished. Oh my Don't stop. Do you get what I'm saying?

You play into it. Stop. That is hard. Because you're leaning into the, it's like every action has a reaction, right? Yeah. Let's totally bring that in. Metaphysics. Maybe that's what she's being frustrated by is there's not so much for a conversation. It's like there's just two things.

I want to give you head. I don't feel like it right now. Okay. Exactly. That's good. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. I think that's what's starting to happening. Yeah, you got to play into it, man.

You can't be. I'm sure there's a version. And also like, let's be real, man. We go through seasons. We're fluid. We like, we go through like, and especially for a woman. I mean, you know, you have like massive hormonal seasons, right? So it's like, who knows how she'll feel in three months?

You just said she's just like she's not Matt leave. What the fuck? Do I mean? Like, there's so many other things happening. She's trying, she's trying to raise your child. And you're like, can I give you head now? I don't want to receive head. I have to pick up our child from school.

I have stitches. I don't feel hard down there right now. That's so true. She's on maternity leave. Give her a minute, babe. All righty. We are really sorting some people's lives out today. I'm really proud of us.

All right, next question. Okay. We have a texty one. I'm going to read it to you, Jordan. Please. Like a sexual lullaby. Foreplay is the best. I've dated many people over the years,

many long-term relationships, mainly with cis men and only two people ago is when good fingering started to happen. It's great. Before it was just a finger in the void and I didn't understand the point. Now having more queer sex, fingering is a bigger deal for me to learn. How do you do it well? Tips please, 35 year old in Scotland. Okay, sorry, fingering in the void is the name of the episode. Yes, yes it is. Fingering in the void is. That might be the name of my fucking next memoir. Like what the fuck? Fingering in the void is. is one of the greatest descriptions of existence. This is gone beyond foreplay, bro.

This is my life. My life is fingering the void. Yeah, quite. No, seriously. I'm constantly trying to elicit some reaction from this void. Yeah. Like, why won't you fucking come for me? I think this is really good.

She's one of my people. She's Scottish. God, well, I mean, that's a question for you. Wait, what was the question? How do you get better at fingering? Tips, please. Oh, fuck. I guess it's adjacent to the wave analogy.

I'll be real, yeah. Like, I don't know this for 100% but I'm just getting flashbacks now and this is important actually because I'm writing about the stuff at the moment. I'm pretty sure that, firstly, I learned through error. Let me be clear. Like, I had some unfortunate experiences,

not massively unfortunate, just like maybe wrong hole when I was, or like not knowing like what I'm actually trying to do. Like I thought I actually had no, I just knew that you could put a thing in a thing. But like in terms of even knowing what the clip was, I remember like in real time as a teenager, 14, 15, 16 years old being like I don't.

And so I'm pretty sure that I actually just Googled it. I'm pretty sure I seem to have this memory of going on the internet and looking, like typing in, like, fingering. Like sex tips or whatever. I was, because I just, I just wanted to learn.

And so I found, as a general rule, like I used to really resent when people, when I was younger, be like, I'm really good in bed or whatever. And I'll be like, well, I'm sure people are more equipped.

I'm sure there are people who are more equipped to find what another person enjoys in bed, but ultimately I feel like it's just two people work or they don't work, you know? Yeah, I don't. I don't feel like anyone's good in bed. I feel like people are good in bed together or not. Right, exactly. There'll be some people where, you know, that, the sensitivity or the, the pressure will be perfect in that moment.

But it's also always about communication. Anyway, when you Googled it, what did they say to do with fingering, rub the clip more? Yeah, you just learn about, I mean, it's the same kind of thing with giving head, isn't it? It's just like, it's just understanding that there are like other things fucking going on. I'll say from my experience, I just, I generally start as soft as possible. Because I think the other way is maybe more common and could be shocking, you know. As a receiver, I fucking agree. Yeah.

Okay. Like, don't go in too hard and rough. But then I did watch this film called Sleeping with other people with Jason Seducus. And he's, and him and this girl are sort of best friends, but he sort of loves her. And he's teaching her about sex and how to enjoy herself more. And he says, just when you're, when your finger, a girl, he says, just be rude to it. This is what I mean, man.

This is why we're fucked. No, but he has a point. Start soft. Oh, sorry. And then you can get a bit rude to it. Oh, okay. Well, I guess it depends as well on what. You know what I do as a trick?

This isn't a trick. Why'd I say trick? It's not a trick. You know what my magic trick is? It's not a magic trick. I just, when in doubt, get the person to show you. In it.

No one knows how to touch themselves more than the person. And that's hot. So you just go, show me how to do it. And then I'll just emulate and then it'll, you know. I think that's two really good answers. Ask for guidance. But also, I feel like this wave analogy is more powerful than we think. And I think it is definitely across the board of fingering and oral sex.

That wave thing, just listen to that because Jordan really got that right. Yes. Well, I hope everyone's feeling hot and heavy. I mean, I'm quite turned on. I don't know anyone else. I wonder if the team's turned on. Kalin, Ollie, we all all right out there from feeling a hot under the collar. But I will say one thing that I want to add into this is that I really believe if we were to step away from a fixation on men coming, we'd realize that, and I've felt this, men can have prolonged multi-orgasmic experiences that don't result in ejaculation.

Fuck, that sounds great. And it's like, fantastic. Mind-blowing. Yeah. And that's like a whole other, when you like mentioned Karmusufu at the beginning, like, that Eastern pre-colonial outlook on pleasure is powerful as fuck. When we were in Barbados and we were talking to the LGBT plus community, they were telling us about how colonial rule completely was decimated. Yeah, I suppose decimated the sexual culture that existed before. Yeah.

Which was very fluid. Yes. Very fluid. Yes. And then they came in and told everyone that actually, the polarised everything, segregated everything. The church is just pure shame. Yeah, the church.

It's pure shame. Fucks everything, man. That pleasure. Shamed it all. Pleasure. I just read something this morning. Freedom. I read something this morning, which I loved.

Actually, I'm going to read it. Okay. It's just a little bit of it because I thought it was really cool. But it was somebody talking about tantra. And for those who don't know tantra, tantra is like a... Yeah, tell me about tantra. I can't get into all of it, but the short hand is it's a, well, tantra, what is it like a religious adjacent kind of philosophy, spirituality.

It's a spiritual path that people can access through yoga. There's tantric yoga. There is like a neo-tantra scene, which maybe feels more sexualized. But what I thought was so cool was the way this one tantra teacher explained it. Oh, sorry, just to be clear, sorry, tantra is also. considered maybe like an offshoot of Buddhism. It's like an offshoot of those principles. It's not the same school of thought, but it like is a derivation. Right. And but like so the practice is tantra leans into pleasure and arousal as a spiritual vehicle. That's what tantra is.

So, you know, we have like a, I think our most simplistic definition of tantra is like not coming for ages. That's what people would. That's what people would associate with it. Yeah. But what that is is what I was just saying is we're not trying to. finish. Yes, like not seeking outcome. We're creating life force. Yeah. We're creating life force and then we're actually utilising it. Building it and then putting and like keeping it within you. Yeah. So he says, bring to mind the person you find most magically sexually attractive in the world. Got it. Get Harris out your fucking brain. Meditate for a moment on the fascination and beauty you see in them. Imagine a world where every person, every object, every experience held that same fascination, beauty and

magic for you. This, I believe, is the world that a truly tantric practice is trying to unlock. People imagine tantra as a practice designed to make sex more fascinating, but really it's more like making everything that is not sex as fascinating and magical as sexes. Yeah. That's so good. That is so good. The reason Buddhists adapted tantra to their system is that the process of re-enchantment and re-fascination with the world has an interesting effect on desire. When everything we experience is equally fascinating, equally magical, equally beautiful, then we no longer crave any experience in particular. In a world where everything is perfect already, nothing is desired in particular.

The beauty and magic that we sought from special experiences is now seen not to be inherent to those experiences but are available in all things. Because everything is special, nothing is special. Specialness and desirability are seen as empty and that they are revealed as a mode of awareness rather than a property of the desired or special object. is partly why Tibetan Buddhists talk about how emptiness is inseparable from bliss liberated from dependence on specific objects, experiences or people, bliss shines everywhere in all things.

Oh my God. It's really interesting. But it also builds on the fact that, and that's, sorry, just for credit, that's by a substack account, the name is V-A-C-H-A. Yeah, and also that's what I'm writing about at the moment is pleasure, because we have shamed pleasure, we've, like, restricted pleasure and, you know, what's fascinating is the consumer world offers us pleasure in short bites. And I conspiracize and so does my friend actually who gave me this insight, Aisha.

I feel as though like if we were to understand that we, like an orgasm comes from us. You have to deep how powerful that shit is. Like we create that pleasure in our own body. If we were to lean into that pleasure and know that we're capable of feeling that pleasure for an elongated period of time. You can't sell us anything. I think we'll end there. I'm going to go masturbate. There's one more question. I think we should end on that. That was too beautiful. I don't think we should do

another question. Just a quick one. Just a quick one. Keith's like, I need to go to the bathroom. I need to go get my vibration. No, let's have another question. I'll masturbate after. Let's have one more question. Hi, McKeeton and Jordan. I'm Haley. I'm 20 and I'm from Surrey. Just off the bat, I want to say, I love your podcast. I've literally listened to every single one. You guys just bring really positive vibes, really down-to-earth people, and we need more of that in this world. Thanks, Hayley. My question today on Foreplay is that so many people are exposed to

porn from a really young age, and I'm guessing that's where a lot of people get their first ideas about sex. A lot of it skips straight to the sex, and it doesn't really show the foreplay or the communication that happens in real life where a lot of people actually need that time to get in the mood and feel comfortable. So do you think that's created unrealistic expectations and how do you think people can unlearn that and have healthier, more realistic experiences? Thanks guys. Oh, no, thank you, Haley, all 20 and being open like that. I don't watch porn, like I told you. Is just foreplay even feature?

Yeah. Okay, great. It does, but it's quite performative. Yeah, no, I cannot with that shit. There's some bad porn, man. Yeah, man, I bet there is. And I must be horrendous being 20 now. What you just discussed is literally the opposite of everything that's important.

Yeah. This idea of it is within you. Yeah, not coming. The mind is part of it. Not coming, right? Like literally never see that shit. You never see it based around the woman coming. or coming several times.

It's always the guy. Now we finish, the cum shot done, finished. Right, God. And it also reflects the world. It's capitalism, isn't it? I hate people probably go, oh, God, there we go. But I'm just, it's fucking true. Like, it's about the product.

It's not about the design. Right. That's good. Like, it's the same as life, isn't it? It's like, we're looking at outcomes, literally. We're like, this ends when I finish. But it's like, but you don't have to finish. Yeah.

You don't have to finish. You can just, carry on doing what you love. But there must be some tantra porn out there. Maybe. I've not looked. I mean, you can, you can, there's definitely ethical porn. There's porn produced by women.

There's porn. Yeah, maybe that's good for Haley. Maybe we'd say, expand your porn horizons. And maybe we all should and not just feel that there is just this one idea of what porn can be. Because the idea of watching people have sex to turn yourself on, it sounds great to me. It just has never turned me on ever. Yeah.

I don't find it sexy. I think it's a mixture of that. And also, I think if you're watching porn and you actually don't know what the alternative is, that's when it's dangerous. And for me, it's always baffled me in my whole life. The places in Europe that have the best record of, like, teen pregnancy is in like a low teen pregnancy rate,

a low rate of STI, a low, you know, or in some places, sex is literally, sorry, sex work is legal. They sometimes, sometimes they start sex education in primary school, which people be up in arms about here. And it just reflects into a world where they just seem to be like, I don't know, a lot more balanced. You know, like if you know something, then you can tell when it's not that thing. Well, I was just going to say, actually, that taps into your pleasure thing,

because me and Lily banged on about the fact there's no sexual education, and we sort of found out more on how sex education looks today. But it's never about pleasure. Never. No. It's just about the anatomy and the process of pregnancy. Yeah, yeah, the biological. side of it. I was just thinking like, why, what are we so scared of? Why can't we just say the words,

like, and this will be pleasurable for you? And this is about pleasure for you. It's like, just that idea, we are fucking proof. And also, I was like, why is sex not an actual lesson? This is what blows my mind, yeah. Like, we, this is something that every single motherfucker, other than a small proportion, I guess, there may be asexual people or, but like, we're all going to be fucking, right? So, like, teach the history of it. Go into the class. Teach the history of it. Do a The whole thing. Tell us how we got here. Tell us why women feel like this. Tell us why guys feel like that. Tell us why. Do you know, in Tantra, they refer to the penis as a lingam, right? Do you know what lingam means? No. Magic wand. Do I feel like I have a magic wand?

No. No, because it's all shrouded in secrecy. Yes. And because people are like, penises. Yeah, yeah. Like, he, Willie. So it's actually my magic wand and I can change the world. actually, I'll have you know this is capable of creating fucking life, right? Which, which, which, which again, like, we, we, we, I don't know, we just become so separate from our bodies in that space. But yeah, I think, I think it should be a fucking lesson. Like, I'm talking an hour a week, not a subsection of PSHE, like go and tell every. No, but we should do it. We should do a Miss Me Live, the history of sex. Yeah.

In the British Library. Leave me with that. I'll make that happen. Great. I've got links to the British Library. And you're only invited if you subscribe to Patreon though There you go See you in September Let's make this event happen

All right we've got to go Listen I love you Next week's listen bitch Nat just came up for something And I like it Should we do magic? Yeah Yeah

Thing for next week's listen bitch Is magic I might be doing it from the woods Well that's very magical It is I might actually be doing it with a wizard It depends if I can get into that Oh stop

That's too perfect Okay I'll see you then Love you love you love you Bye bye bye Bye Bye bye Thanks for listening to Miss Me. This is a Persephonica show.