Miss Me? - Gang Gang

Episode Date: January 15, 2026

Miquita Oliver and Jordan Stephens check in from holiday and chat how to resolve a tiff and gender politics. This episode contains very strong language and adult themes. Credits: Producer: Natalie Jamieson Technical Producer: Will Gibson Smith Assistant Producer: Caillin McDaid Production Coordinator: Rose Wilcox Executive Producer: Dino Sofos Commissioning Producer for BBC: Jake Williams Commissioners: Dylan Haskins & Lorraine Okuefuna Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

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The following episode contains strong language, adult themes and specifically mentions of suicide and mental health. So yeah, you've been warned. Oh, holiday, miss me. Well, I just heard that in real life. Oh, no, weird. Okay, the reason that Jordan, and said, I just heard that in real life.

We're doing something that we haven't done since the heady summer of 24 when Miss Me had just launched, and it was going very well, so well that Billy Eilish asked to come on. And we did her in the room. We did her in the room. And then she left, and we realised we had another episode to record. And so Lily had to go in one room of her godmother's house,

and I went in the other. Only time that two people on Miss me have been close by. So sorry that you can hear. me twice. That's really weird. But it's cool. You've got a horse and I've got a fish. And I've got a Pisces moon. There we are. The animal themes of this retreat. Now tell me what part of the holiday you feel

like you're on right now because you're leaving tomorrow. It's all got a bit Bob Marley my side. I'm very kind of relax, chilling, reflective, meditative. How are you? Yeah. I feel I've just I've really loved the holiday so much I think Sri Lanka is an incredible place It's definitely led me to reviewing

What it is in life that I Enjoy and value and and You know what freedom means to me Or if that even is a thing nowadays And then also like I definitely It's definitely propelled me into a very interesting Personal journey which I'm in the process of So I can't really like get into the nitty gritty now

But yeah Said spiritual personal journey is is kind of just heating up which I fucking love a spiritual journey. Yeah, philosophical, spiritual, I guess. Mainly curiosity, just curiosity. Where my curiosity has taken me is into a space I hadn't preempted, but it makes a lot of sense. So just trying to figure that out, basically.

But it's been a lovely time. Me and Jay don't want to go home. I know. It's weird that you're going. Well, there's been many chapters to this holiday, whether it be people or location changing. Jordan and Jay went up to the mountains for four days and had a completely different experience.

which sounded amazing, very, very different to being down here with us, a little less hectic. And it felt like you experienced something that I wanted to know more about because it just when you move around the country, the energy is very different in different parts of it. And I've, as you know, being quite compound-based. I haven't really left the result. Tell me about the mountains a little bit, Jay.

I was in the mountains. And for the last record, it was very serene. We felt energetically encouraged to just sit and read didn't feel too pressure to do things, which sometimes happens on holiday, where you feel like you have to do as many excursions as possible and really make the most of it. But actually just being surrounded by nature and the sounds was very relaxing. And that was our approach.

And we were grateful we went there. Yeah. And when you came back, it was quite a strange day because we have had sort of around, obviously the world is on fire. And you can't really go anywhere, even in the depths of Sri Lanka, not be very aware of that. Like there has been a madness being whipped up around the world as we've been here. And we're a very politically engaged family like a lot of people. And there's a lot of concern and worry.

And then also on the outer room of that, we have had three sort of external deaths and a funeral. A lady called Danielle Scott Houghton, who was a friend of. someone that was with us and also a friend of Auntie Allison's Yeah she was a commissioner at a BBC We had two people that were greatly affected by her death

and I don't think I have met her but she just seemed like an incredible person who has lost her life at a very young age and then two other external losses through someone that I know and through someone that Aunt Jeanette knows and then we had a funeral

because my auntie Pam Hogg fucking number one hog. We lost her last year and we had the opportunity as a family to dial in to the live stream of her funeral. I've never done anything like that. And it was truly, Jordan, you and I were together and then we went off to do this, but I didn't really tell you about it.

It was so beautiful to do it on that little kind of grassy bit outside mum's space on the river and to actually kind of be there. because, you know, all my, all Jeanette, Alison, mum, Nana, Pam was one of them, one of theirs. And it's a huge, great loss to our family. So the fact that we could all be together and celebrate the mighty Pam Hogg and let her go. And then this amazing thing happened, did I tell you where her sister was talking at the funeral, she talked about the fact that Pam was Scottish, big time Scottish. And she did this amazing thing where she brought all these singing bowls up to the Scottish Highlands to make music with.

the sound of prayer and Buddhism with like old Highland traditional Scottish music and we were like wow that's so Pam and then we're sitting on the banks of that river and this man comes up to sing Red Rose which is like a really beautiful old sort of folk

Scottish song and then as he's singing it the most beautiful song the prayer from the monks starts coming down the river because it was that time of day and these two things did meet as Pam said they We had suddenly this old Highland folk music mixing with the prayer of the monks.

And we were just like, wow, if you kind of sit back and really release and feel all that pain of losing someone, like something really magical can happen. And it really did. So it's been quite a weird week. It's been beautiful and lovely. But we have had quite a lot of external things going on. And maybe that's why I've been feeling so pensive. Yeah.

I actually had dinner with Danielle Scott Houghton, messaging my friends who clearly affected. by her passing. Yeah. But she's lovely. She was lovely. I had a dinner with her organized by Afua Hirsch. And she was really cool. I hear she was brilliant, actually.

Yeah. Well, she's just open doors and encourage people. And I think that's just such a blessing. And it, you know, it's moments like this. And with Pam, life is, well, obviously it's finite, but also it's just, there doesn't seem to be much order, you know. We're kind of just sort of surf the chaos a little bit. And sometimes something,

a young passing can feel incredibly unjust, but, you know, I guess we have to remember. It doesn't take away from the kind of, the light that those people create is special. And it can live on, what I always think about when losing someone close to me is that I'm now like a guardian of their energy because they live in my telling of their stories

and the ways in which they've inspired me. And so I feel kind of forever close to them in that way. Jay, I love that, the guardians of their story. That's beautiful. Yeah, the energy, you know, it's like that's what's so profound about someone's life and why some people actually, some people don't even refer to people who have passed over in the past tense, you know, some people will still talk about them as if they're present because in many ways they are. And I think that's like quite comforting.

It definitely made me think about how I want to live the year and the things I want to do in it. And obviously being around all the people we've been around, we had a big huge beach day the other day with everyone. First time I'd left the compound in days. But I have been working. I'm not just a lazy bitch. And that was, that was amazing. That was the first time I sort of looked around and I can't believe we're all on holiday together. And then we did think we saw Grace Wales Bonner, but we're not sure. So... The fashion designer. We didn't want me and name and went over to say hi. And then we were like, actually, it might not even be her, but I think it was. But it was a beach. It was totally bottled it.

Don't you bother. Mainly because I was in a Grace Wales Bonner shoe and Jordan had a grace Wales on a bag. So I didn't want to be like big fans, Grace. Huge fans over here.

But Sri Lanka's the hot spot. I'm going to talk about a little moment that Jordan and I had this week before he went to the mountains and we had a little bit of a tiff, a little bit of a misunderstanding. I was actually like a bit of a dickhead and Jordan told me.

And after he left, I was like, oh my God. Okay, I don't feel safe for on Jordan. shit that's one of my best friends that's like my fucking cousin as my family we also happen to

I was to podcast together we've got a recording two days no it was the next day I was like oh fuck anyway we did it because we're fucking brilliant and we're professionals and also we're fine

but when he came back I was like I need to talk to him and I was so scared to even say the words John and I need to talk to you about what happened the other day and as I said it I felt stronger

and I felt stronger and you were lovely, as I knew you would be because I know the kind of man you are and you listen and you respond accordingly. But I still felt once we'd finished our conversation, I was like, did I say what I wanted to say? Was I strong enough? Did I listen to him?

And then later on in the night, you came over and just held me and gave me a hug that I needed so badly and helped me to take a little bit of a film away from my eyes that has kept creeping in over the time we've been here. Yeah, yeah. So just for clarity,

He didn't beat me with a stick. Just for those who were worried that I like came at McKita, what it was was that. Can I say? Yeah. Okay. So like, Makita was a bit pissed.

A bit drunk. And I think I like energetically felt like a little bit concerned. But instead of like maybe approaching the concern in like a loving way, the first time, I think it was maybe the second time that you were drunk. I kind of flippantly said like stop being a piss head basically which really upset you because there's like a fear of yours which went to a very dark old place for me for sure

yes which which I also which I mean I'd like to see what you felt this but when you did say that to me I like instantly knew what you were talking about because I also felt like I was a little bit brash because you know in my head obviously those words weren't intending to be as like cutting but so no I know and also I was very well willing to apologise. But then I also had empathy for the fact that being sober isn't a joke and it's also a daily decision.

And I know that you're eight years in and I know that it's just part of your life now. And I don't think you would ever sway from that. And I don't even think it's about swaying because you said to me if I wanted to drink, I would. You're not in that place. Yeah. But as I said, I've had three months of playing and living with sobriety. And so I was shocked that I was drinking.

I got over excited because I'm on holiday with my cousin, Phoebe, who I never go on holiday with. And something started happening in London. Shelf food. shout out, Phoebe. And then something started happening that kind of just shift, just rocked me a bit in London.

So I was like, I'm going to get pissed. I'm not just going to get pissed. I'm going to drink white wine. And I hate drinking white wine. Like, it's my worst self. So when you said that to me, I was like, everything I was starting to feel after two nights of drinking like that,

you said it to my face. And I was like, and now I have to look at it. But it was really good because I wanted to look at it. It was good. It was really good for me. I think that's what frustrated me is it's like, I never know. So just for clarity,

to take this slightly out of just me and me and you because I see this happen with other things as like because I am not drinking when I'm out and whatever else and I see people shift and change like I don't know what like it could quite easily if we'd gone like the other way

if I had approached you on a night or the morning after and been like hey I'm we should talk I'm concerned I wonder if you're drinking a little bit too much like to me that also sounds like who am I the fuck am I to say that shit? No but then I'd be like The fact that you said it like that was more like, what are you doing?

Stop. And I was like, yeah. I know. It was better. No, but it was better. It was better. It was a real, fuck. It's been a real journey last week.

But I wouldn't want, I'm not trying to police people, man. Like I said, it's so hard to find that fucking line between like, because I don't, I would, I would expect the same from someone, you know, if they felt like I was being out of character or whatever, then I could just come and tell me. And actually, I have, you know, I've been thinking about this four years. like look at you know that I used to drink very differently and then I changed the way I drink in for years I was like fuck it can I just do sobriety

then I did a whole year and a half with Lily and made me think about it more by the time I started talking to you I was like maybe I should just try this and it was delightful the last few months of my year delightful so it was really good to have to look at myself and go what is it you said you want to do remember what you said you want this year to be

and just have a few drinks with golf but not fucking get all white wine drunk Larry with Phoebe that's not what I'm out at and not where I want to be. So I thank you. But you're right to show that like obviously in that context, I guess you and I aren't really, we see life in different ways, but I guess we're not necessarily approaching it from as like a man and a woman.

Do you know what I mean? Like this is one of the things I worry about. But the thing is not just you and men have to do this. It is as well how the other side, women react. And women do react in a particular way because of their historical relationships with men. So when you said that to me, think Jordan's saying it to me, I thought a man is saying it to me. Really?

Yeah, which is where all the shame came from, because that's the kind of relationship. So I used to have with boyfriends. You're a pisser. No, you are. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's horrible. And I was like, fuck that shit. That's not where I live now.

And then what I had to do was come back to, no, Jordan is talking to me. Not a bloke that I'm scared of. It's Jordan. And so that was actually very important for me to take gender out of it and realize that it was two friends talking, you know? Yes. And then the next day, I had period pains that I cannot even describe. to you. I cannot describe it. We were at dinner.

It was a lot of the people that were leavings last night and I couldn't even stand straight and I had to leave and we got back and Jordan said, I got drugs for Jade because she said that she's got cramps coming and he gave me the best drugs I've ever had for period pain. My pain went in

under four minutes and anyone that understands period pain that you never think is going to go, I was like, it stopped. Like Michelle Pfeiffer in the Witches of Eastwick, it was like, it stopped. And I suddenly was like, What an interesting week we've had. Suddenly, Jordan's healing my pain.

Yeah, wow. Right? How I came about these magic pills was because we were traveling inland. Jade was getting period cramps. And so I dipped into a chemist. And when I went in there, they didn't speak great English or understand English as they didn't need to. But they did understand me saying women pain. And then they handed me a bag.

And seemingly these pills are next level. And they said that Jack, it's like Jack and the Beanstalk. It was a certified professional chemist, which had a glass screen and everything. And welcome back to Miss Me. I haven't really been on my phone, as you're saying, neither of you. No. But when we have been on our phones, this story particularly has come up what's going on with. Is unraveling too strong a word?

The unraveling of Stephen Bartler? Is that too strong? Yeah, yeah, it's too strong. It's too strong. I don't think he's too big of a thing and it's international. Right, but that is the unraveling of someone. I don't mean him personally.

I mean the story of him as, you know, I interviewed him on Steph's Pack Lunch four years ago. And I was like, who's this fucking upstart? I think actually Diary of the CEO started in 2017. Very much his story was I made myself very rich, very young through all these ways. But since then, he's become a real guideer,

a real success. and a real, you know, leader in some parts of the industry. And I didn't really know what was going on. So just, you know, pray tell me what the hell's going on. I mean, I've been messaged. I've been sent the stuff a few times because it does definitely fall into like my remit of interest. People have come for him before. Clickbait titles.

People have come for him, you know, like scientifically questionable nutritional advice or like the guests, like there's been a few things that have come up with CEO. The most recent issue, which everybody's talking about, is the fact that he's done a podcast, well, two podcasts, one with a guy called Dr. Kay and another with a guy called Chris Williamson, both active in the kind of male development sphere, an extension of the manosphere, if you will. Male development sphere is much better term for it, but okay, yeah. It has different extremes. Of course, we're more accustomed to the toxic extremes of the manosphere, but, you know, are other aspects to it, I guess.

But yeah, they do male development. The whole thing's catching heat because to kind of paraphrase the both of them, even though they're two very different people, they're both pushing the narrative that men are struggling to come to terms with what life is like without being able to have children, basically, and what life is like when dating is more difficult. And there's been a pushback on the basis that even though Chris and especially Dr. K, don't present as as the other guys do.

Dr. Kay especially is like a gamer, he's married. You know, to be fair to him, there's a lot of stuff that he's done, which I wouldn't consider to be damaging or toxic. He's actually, I think, helped a lot of men who feel secluded and like I say, you know, often game, you know. Okay. But he has got to this point now.

I mean, I find him kind of grating, to be honest, just stylistically. But it's got this point now where he has made a statement, which is basically suggesting that men are gonna have an existential crisis if they're not able to reproduce. And Chris has made a similar remark upon a TikTok video he saw where a woman was talking about not wanting kids. Yeah, but what the fuck does a woman not wanting to have kids have to do with men not being up? That is just every woman's right.

And there are enough women in the world for that to not actually affect the like the reproduction of the species. Like I don't understand where the fear is coming from. Yeah. Yeah, well, so I mean, just to quickly create a slightly more foundation for it, in terms of Stephen Bartlett himself, the podcast has come under a lot of heat. Some people have suggested that he only platforms men who are willing, who will talk about their internal world and never seem to actually talk about how that affects a woman's internal world, women are seen as something else.

I would say, again, this might just be my algorithm, but he has obviously platformed women to discuss their lives and their careers. I don't know him personally, but he is a good friend of DeVina, so I don't know maybe she'd be a better person to speak to about this. But, you know, I watched Devina on CEO and was blown away by the stuff she was talking about, you know? Yeah, I remember that. I don't particularly care either way about Stephen Bartlett. But you're right. Look, your point's right.

And I think that is a perfect encapsulation of what the issue is. I think both things are true at the same time. And I think we should be able to hold both those truths at the same time. yes for men in a transitionary time in the West specifically there is something shifting and that might come with an existential anxiety for men that's true yeah your turn mean that that the blame is on women but all it is also true that I think personally that and I'd love for your insight on this that you know women turning their back on motherhood is you know a real it's a shifting consciousness you know and it's something that's activating and pushing

against what's been considered usual. And I think that's also true and powerful. And both of those things exist. I don't think they have to be in competition with each other. Yeah, I mean, what I find extraordinary is that like, it's taken millennia to arrive here. And we finally arrived somewhere that even smells of a shift and suddenly men are scared.

And I also think the language is really important. Like, I know that you don't mean, this is just the way things are phrased. This isn't your words. But to turn your back on mother, That's how I read it quite a lot, women turning their backs on motherhood. And I don't see this. I see this is not an ending, a beginning of opening our lives up to other ways of living.

And this idea that two truths can exist at one time. You know, when we were just on the sunbeds down there, I was doing some meditation work, and I was doing this work, which is about two truths existing at the same time. And it is really at the core, like how convenient I was just doing this. But it really is at the core of so many greater things. Even the core belief that women and men can exist at the same time in power, just even if that belief was able to be lived and felt and not feared, even there we find greater peace.

I do think we're going back to a place where we have to worry about men again. How do you mean? Well, just this idea that like, what if we're not the most powerful people? Maybe you're fucking not going to be just for a bit. Maybe that's just not the way things are going to be. I agree and I disagree. Just to start off with something that I probably won't get bitten for saying. But I really strongly believe that women, again, starting to use your phrasing, like opening a new beginning for freedom of choice, exercising a necessary freedom of choice.

I think that's a really important flag. I mean, me and Jade were talking about us the other day. Like what would we expect, what else do we expect from women when the magic that is childbirth is not treated in the, that this I mean it seems like a term that you know people would dismiss but it's not treated in like a sacred way it's not ceremonial is it feels like if anything like an inconvenience yeah in the worst world for sure yes and so so for me looking at it I go yeah I can fucking understand why someone would would be like it's fucking painful it's going to damage my my ability to to live based off of like my income you know it puts a massive strain on on a relationship because we don't literally

have the time to be able to all or money to engage with the work, the emotional, personal work that comes with raising a child, which is like the most important thing on the planet to be able to do that presently, right? And so what's happening is we've had two or three or more generations of children who have been raised whilst their parents have tried to compete with the system that we exist in. And those children, in my opinion, me included, have grown up a little off-kilter and then have had to go into remedial work. And I can, I can afford to do that. A lot of people can't afford to do that. So the cycles continue. At the same time, I do think it's important.

Again, I'm not asking you. No, go on, Jordan, tell me. Well, I just think, like, I try not to apply, like, a power structure or hierarchy to my compassion. Because many of the struggles, I think, that men face get muted by the reality that they are men, if that makes sense. Yes. Because boys and men are boys and men, they're the perpetrators and the victims. I think the survivors, they get lost because of who they are. If that makes sense.

Yeah, no, I get that. I feel like we can both agree that hyperviolent men are our enemy, you know, or controlling. Yeah, there's still one fucker for us all to be worried about. I get so nervous that like it seems like I'm centering men or that I'm deflecting from women's issues. No, I think it's really fucking important to hear this from you. I'm trying to say that like we can unite. I mean, I read something the other day that said like patriarchy still benefits men even when they're struggling. and you know if we were to do a comprehensive breakdown perhaps that's true but it's so difficult

I think it's really difficult to say that to the mom or dad or sibling or partner of a man or boy who's taking their own life like it's difficult I think for them to get the head around the idea that they were benefiting from the system like it's something something isn't working for a lot of men and no one should be to blame but we should look at what we can shift you know and I really mean this for the men who are are most in need of like understanding and compassion, empathy and love. And love and development. And, you know, it would be great if they all, yes, if they all read bell hooks, it'd be

fucking brilliant, but they're probably not going to. Seriously, though, because like the statistics say, like, it's something like 12 men a day kill themselves. 12 men a day. Jesus Christ. Men are more dangerous to themselves than any other person in society, you know. Most of the people on the streets are men. The most people who die on the street are men.

most people who die at work are men, men live shorter lives on average, you know? Like it's, again, I'm not saying that men have it worse. We certainly don't. All I'm saying is without there being an understanding that everybody is going through some shit and it's difficult in subjective ways, I feel like what happens is people get put into a corner. Actually, please just cement this for me, right? Because this is a concern I haven't. I see a lot of carousels or like pieces, think pieces, hot takes from where.

women and they're discussing what men should do, right? Like, it's okay. It's completely accepted, really, in a liberal space for women to talk about what men can change, right? I would assume if I was to write a post about what I think women can change. You'd be fucking comfortable, yeah, right now. And I also see a lot of comments where women, like I saw one comment literally the other day where it was like a great man is just an average woman and it had like 100,000 likes, right?

No, see, I hate that shit. So what I'm going to say is the one thing that I wonder is, is like do you think there's a feeling that women are just better? Like, you know, like, like, no. Because I think there is. And sometimes there's, there's reason for that. But I worry that you take away the freedom of being able to be awful, you know, that everybody has the capacity to be fucking awful and often are of all minorities.

Okay, well, okay, I'm going to go back to spirituality then because spirituality does take gender out of the equation, which is all we are all doing. I love that everyone forgets that their energy balls in, in human suits. Let's not forget that. Let's always start there. So actually what we're all trying to do is have the greatest experience of being a human being as we possibly can while we're here. And that includes being awful and learning from it, doing terrible things and learning from them. Trusting, accepting, respecting.

It's all everyone's duty to live as a human being as much as we can and experience as much as we can. I think if you take gender out of it, what are you left with? Energy and spirituality. You sort of joking about bell hooks that maybe a lot of young men don't have access to bell hooks. Of course not. But I just can't tell you how much sports and spirituality have democratised my feelings about men and women. Yes. And I think both things would help everyone.

Sports and spirituality, that's literally right. The irony is that actually bell hooks is for men and women. women. Bellhooks has an incredibly balanced, compassionate, empathetic view on, and strong-minded view on everybody's responsibility in society. Yes, exactly. Yeah, tell people, who's Bell Hooks? Just to give a deep dive for those who aren't aware of Bell Hooks, Bell Hooks is a famous

black American female writer who has written a, like a load of books, basically, interrogating society and the structures. that bind us and shift and shape us and prevent us often from uniting, you know, and we miss it. And actually, this is a way to get more people to read bell hooks. One of the other ways in which I think men are pushed into a space of loneliness is they've now started to, there's now an online space that are taking a piss out of what they call performative men, performative males. Oh, men just trying to learn more.

And under the guise of performative male is a man reading bell hooks. Apparently that's now just a ploy in order to get women into bed. Oh no, oh no, that's so annoying. Because that actually is the way to grow. That's just terrible. It's not a joke. I know, but they've said it. It's a thing that actually men also who are agreeing with this.

They're saying that performative men are like the new kind of damaging part of male society. If I saw a man reading Bill Hooks in the park, I'd probably jump him. If I saw a man reading, I'd be happy. You'd be like, yes, brother. One thing I would say as well, just talking about ways to live. live. Me and Nema start talking about living long because Nama's like, my cousin Nama who's been on holiday with us. And she was like, fuck living in a city. Never mind London, fuck living in a city after I'm 50. She's like, I don't want that pollution. I don't want

that fucking negativity. And, you know, you and I have been talking about the Eastern versus Western living. And she hadn't seen that Netflix show. Have you seen it the Blue Zone? You know, how to live to 100. Love to that. Yeah. Fuck her. You're joking. One of them is in Costa Rica, Nacquio. What are we talking about? about. Oh, see, I could do my 60s in Costa Rica. Or there's one of them's a black because it's in America. Yeah, but there must be somewhere in America that you can live long.

No, it's a black, mate. I don't believe that. But one thing I would say about living long and living right is communal living. Because we have just lived as a village with lots of different threads of our family altogether. Generationally, I didn't say this before. We had basically people from the age of who was the youngest? Flynn, 21. Flynn to.

who's the oldest, my mom. I don't know. Yeah, mom. No, Alison, she's like 65. So it was really interesting to spend like two weeks with this generational, sorry, generation of our family

and all the threads that we are. I've learned so much from you, J, mom, Alison, everyone that I'm going to take back and put into my year. I swear it's the secret of life living as a village. I feel fed.

Yeah, so do I. And also the beautiful thing about it was that nobody had any, there was no requirement or pressure to constantly be with said group. You know, you can go off and have your own little side quests and shit. Like, I think having been raised most of my life as an only child, I really do value these, these moments. I've learned that, I mean, with Libby and Kamal, they've definitely given me, and Flynn actually, have given me, like, quite a lot of encouragement for the new gen. Right. Who they are as people.

Whether intrigue lies, like, it's further confirmation that there's definitely a wave of new gen who are like, slightly moving away from being constantly online and like constantly, like considering they were the youngest, I didn't see them at all fixated on their phones. On Instagram or shit. No. And Kamal 23 was here me reading Mrs. Dalloway. Reading Michigan Woolf.

I was like, you're such a gee. That's interesting you see the young lot. Yeah, man. It's interesting how just the waves shift. And I think, you know, in conversation, like your mum, Andy, the wonderful Andy Oliver, She can be so cutthroat about people, but at the same time, like, is so, like, open and willing to be fluid with that opinion.

It's kind of like you have this, this fire and this tenacity, which everyone loves her for. But actually, she's really, really reasonable to... Yeah, this is the two-truth thing. To further conversation. Yeah, this is the two-truth thing. And also you've incredible, has a very open-minded and balanced approach to people in life.

Yeah, but then can be so fucking kind of. You're right. This is what I've learned. And weirdly, my greatest learnings have been from the 60-year-old Auntie Power Aunties, mainly because I just was like, I'm so, you know, I've been so worried about getting old in my whole life. And my 40s so far have been absolutely extraordinary, even with the shit that went down last year in my life.

And I can feel myself getting better and loving myself more and getting really excited about the things that I'm finally about to fucking do. And actually seeing them, friendship. I was like, see Nana, Alison, Jeanette and my mum, and realizing that like, it just gets deeper. It just gets deeper and richer. Yes, you will get older, but you will get wiser and things will feel richer. And that's been, that's been beautiful for me. I'm like, I can't wait to be 65 and be Alison Owen. She's such a fucking ballbreaker and such a laugh. Like, obviously I've known her my whole life is Lily's mum, but to spend this time with her,

it's just been a true gift. I told her that when she left. I miss her already. Yeah, totally. No, the whole gang was so strong and diverse. Gang gang. Can we call the episode Gang Gang? If that means anything. Yeah, look, I think that's good. Do you think, I'm obviously paranoid that I didn't like state my case for male empathy well enough. It couldn't have been better.

It couldn't have been better. Because I can throw a load more stats than you if you want. Don't worry. Don't worry. Don't worry. It's an evergreen subject. Children, we will return in a few weeks. Not more about the man developing sphere.

Strokeman-a. Thank you, darling. I was like to say, I love you. I'll see you soon. You're literally downstairs. I'm literally going to see in a second for some dinner.

See you in a minute for dinner. Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to Miss Me. This is a Percephonica production for BBC Sounds. If anything we discussed today has affected you,

you can find support via the BBC Action Line. Hello, I'm Kimberly Wilson. I'm a psychologist and in my new podcast Complex, I'll be your guide through all the information and misinformation that's out there about mental health. I'm joined by expert guests covering topics from people pleasing to perfectionism, burnout, to empathy, to find tangible advice so we can understand ourselves a little better.

Complex with me, Kimberly Wilson. Listen on BBC Sounds.