Miss Me? - How to Light Up Your World

Episode Date: November 27, 2025

Miquita Oliver and Jordan Stephens discuss friendship and lighting.This episode contains very strong language and adult themes. Credits: Producer: Natalie Jamieson Technical Producer: Will Gibson Smith Assistant Producer: Caillin McDaid Production Coordinator: Rose Wilcox Executive Producer: Dino Sofos Commissioning Producer for BBC: Jake Williams Commissioners: Dylan Haskins & Lorraine Okuefuna Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

This episode of Miss Me contains very strong language, adult themes. And I think that's it. I think it was quite clean today. All we do is talk about friendship and lighting. Well, it's a trigger warning for those of you who enjoy your house being lit like Prim Rock. I saw another complaining comment, but it was really funny this morning. It was like, where are these guys looking when they're filming this podcast? See, now that's a good question.

I think it's because of my new set. I think because I'm facing this way and I'm looking there, I think people, they just reach their limit. They're just like, okay, what is happening? Welcome to Miss Me. Jordan is in a new part of his house that he shares with his girlfriend and his two dogs. And it's nice to see, you know, another angle of your life. Your life through a different lens.

It's under a metre from where I previously said. Can you stop reading comments? I didn't actually mean to read that one. They come up in my feed. Yeah, but I tried to avoid all reaction. I think it's healthier. You've actually had, for the record, the clip we put up about witch hunting.

What you were saying was incredibly poignant and the way you articulated it was incredible. And it was just that is what people are saying. There's been a lot of support. That's really nice. So it's not always a bad thing, actually, looking for you. Well, I watched the Eddie Murphy. documentary on Netflix last night

came out of nowhere. God, it's interesting. Does he talk about Mel B? No. Then fuck him. No! That's what I thought. I thought, I thought, he should talk about Mel B, and then I was like, does he need to? He talks about the fact that he has ten children. He talks about how much he loves them, but he doesn't go into the parents

of all of them. But there's like a varied... A fucking wild. Forty-five year career to talk about. All the kids seem to be around this big table. Oh, okay. He's just got this a way of beautiful children in this. Maybe I jumped it. into it. I don't know about Eddie Murphy to be judgmental

and also for black culture he did a lot, you know what I mean? Thank you. You better watch the documentary. I'm going to get hate of like people who love Eddie Murphy's films. I loved a lot of Eddie Murphy films when I was a kid cool, they're cool films. I know, I don't know why you're not giving him the respect he deserves. He deserves a lot of respect. Listen, Eddie Murphy raw,

absolute game changer. Like, iconic comedian. I get it. Like, who else has looked like good all in the leather? But like, I'm just, you know, you find things out about people and you're like, ah man, you know? You should need to watch more documentaries. You'll learn a lot more. That's just where I live.

The reason I get reactive about it is because I know how important it is to have a balanced home. I can't understand logistically 10 children with different mums. I just literally can't figure out how you would do that logistically. But you know what? It's interesting because I went on a bike ride with my brother yesterday. I took him up to Ali Pali because I love it up there. And I was like, well, I went up the Highlands with my brother and my dad. Let me now, Louie.

let me take you to my mountain I just call Alexandra Palace God it's so steep We'd line bikes and it was still hard But it was beautiful We got there just before dusk And we had this beautiful day And this boy

This brother of mine is very new This is five years He's been in my life My dad is only like eight years Maybe that's just how it was meant to be Yeah but you had goth I did have goth I did have goth

I did have goth But look I started with no men No fathers and I now have two. So you never really know what's going to happen. I'm not saying that it isn't doable. One of the things that brings me the most joy ever in life ever are surrogate parents in any shape or form.

It doesn't even have to be necessarily in a relationship. It can be like a best friend to a parent. It can be a distant relative. It can be someone in the community. Like somebody stepping in. I went to a wedding before where the groom was marrying, obviously the bride, but the bride had a child from a previous relationship. and he in his speech speaks about the moment

that this boy turned around and told him that and called him dad. Bro, I was in floods. I didn't even know this guy that well. I was going with Jade. I was like Jay's plus one. I was in floods of tears. Because that's beautiful.

It means so much to me for somebody to step into that role. How the fuck did we get here? Anyway, in the documentary, he's talking about being a star, right? And having platitude, celebration of who you are and everything. do. Then he talks about this skit on Saturday Night Live where David Spade talks about him being a falling star and it gets to him. It really, really affects him and he comes back with

the nutty professor. That's what period of time he was in. And Jerry Seinfeld is one of the people in the documentary and he says, the thing about being famous. Fuck Jerry Seinfeld. No, can you not? Let's know. I really like Jerry Seinfeld. Seminal writer of Seminole comedic television in America. Yeah, he wrote Seinfeld. I thought Larry David wrote Seinfeld. I think they wrote it together. Well, I prefer Kirby Infusionism, and I say that with chest.

Larry David's one of my gods. Yeah, yeah. Larry David, Bacca. Okay. Blade, the fictional character played by Wesley Snipes. What a film. We have to stay focused. Sorry, sorry, carry on, sorry, carry on.

Jerry Seinfeld says... Eddie Murphy wins to his other famous wingy mate about whinging. No! No, I'm not having this. It was a good documentary and I learned a lot. And Jeremy Seinfeld said, if you're famous and you put out work into the world, you're going to hear the best things you've ever heard said about your work. You're also going to hear the worst things you've ever heard about your work.

And they're both lies. Yeah, yeah. That's actually like an ancient principle. Interesting, right? I was like, what, I can't even believe all the good shit. Nah. No, you have to. Yeah, you can't engage with any of it.

Because all of it is ultimately a projection of the person. I think you can just find patterns personally. The beautiful thing about negative feedback, which obviously, as you know, I can really sink into that because of my own insecurities, I can really fall into it. But it's usually because I would have had concerns myself privately. And if a bit of feedback intersects with my own concerns, then that's when it really hits me. Absolutely. I hear you. Yeah. Nowadays, you're more likely to get a reality check from someone who doesn't like you than someone who likes you.

You should have somebody nearby you who's willing to tell you the truth. but often we want people just to feel good which is a good thing. But if we want to build, sometimes it's worth listening, not to all of it because some people are just fucking on some other tip but if there is a running theme or a pattern, isn't it? This is a question

to you. Do you not feel like it's within our human experience to notice the patterns either way and then come to a critical decision ourselves based of what we believe to? It's like a communal thing. Well actually this would take me into something we do want to talk about today which is friendship which is do I want to hear the truth from friends

about the work that I've put out because someone did tell me something a bit harsh recently but it was the truth and I did need to listen and they were right and I think it made me love them more maybe a bit I was like oh yes exactly I think if you have a relationship with someone and obviously we don't have relationships with people commenting under a clip of Miss Me

I don't know those people they don't know me but there is an intimacy because of the show and the way we've talked about things and I do I guess I do take it really personally the things people say and when it's good I really take it on board and when it's bad I really take it on board but we don't actually have a point of reference

because it's all strangers we're all strangers we just know far too much about each other yeah the self-validation thing I've got friends who I've got one friend particularly who almost entirely self-validates and I find it fascinating What do you mean self-validates?

He'll just create things and put them out because he likes it. He likes it, he enjoys it, he thinks it's good, that's it. He's not scared of reaction. He just carries on. I guess he's more engaged with the process than the product, which is the dream, you know? Yes, absolutely.

But that's what I'm gauging from the time I spend with him. I don't know how there might be another like underneath that he is concealing. But yeah, look, I'm bound egoically into those two worlds. I'm more likely to lean into people, say something negative towards me because that's like a comfortable space for me to exist in. I'm used to

self-critique. So if someone's critiquing me, I will believe it more than if somebody is telling me something positive. I struggle to believe the positive thing, which is my own issue. Tell me about the friendships in your life. Who are the people that you really trust, Jordan? I need probably a handful of people. Joshie, McKenzie.

Oh, is Mack still in that handful? I speak to Mac every day. Oh my God. I literally speak to Mac every day other than when, like, sometimes if I'm busy, obviously it's harder, but I speak to Mackey. I just spoke to him this morning. Let's explain who McKenzie is.

McKenzie is my family friend. It's your mum's best friend's son. Yes, it's my godmother's son, actually. Jeanette's my godmother's son. Oh, there you are. And actually, Jeanette, I did want to talk about Jeanette a little bit because she won this amazing award this week. My mom went with her,

and it was like some sort of music award ceremony, and Jeanette won an award for, like, her lifelong work with Rough Trouf. She started Rough Trade records in her 20s and still runs it. And won an award for the relationship she's had with Jarvis, Cocker, from Pulp. I think they've been manager and artist for like 35 years or something, 30 years. And she won an award. It was really nice because Jeanette is an incredible woman who's done amazing things in the world.

And she's never been celebrated in that way. I just really wanted to say well done to my godmother Jeanette because she really deserves that. But McKenzie's her son and I was there. I guess when you guys started hanging out, that was when we all started training. training together. And it's a real proper, serious love that you and McKenzie have. And I love that because, of course, we're all under one umbrella of family, but I love when two people within that become really, really close and find something for themselves. I'm one of these people. I love making new friends. And then I struggle to understand how to nurture the new friendships.

But I found that over time, there's obviously people, you know, like I say, to add to that, not only Mac, but also Flynn, his younger brother. Flynn, I was training with, but then we started playing games with each other, like on a headset. And then Flynn's actually just really lovely, reliable. Like his wedding was incredible. I loved Flynn. Were you at the wedding when my married them? Yes. Oh shit.

I went on a stag do. Okay. I didn't go because I was working. Yeah, you were working. Then Harley, of course, of course goes about saying, you know, that's like a brotherly you know, bound by Rizzle kicks and then also our lives have intertwined in ways, you know, sobriety. He's a

dad. Like, I've got too rescue dogs. Have they got two rescue dogs? I've got new friends. Candice, I love speaking to you. I've got, she's a new friend of mine, Charlotte. Oh, right. Okay.

A whole circle of girlmates that are wicked and I welcome reality checks if they're delivered in a loving way, you know, I really do. I'm trying to think about like how I, there are a few people that I met recently, namely some girls from my football team and some other people. Like I did make, I have made a new friend actually. She's called Chloe. and she came through my friend Jesse and she had written a treatment

that she wanted to talk to me about and regardless of working together she was like, do you want to just go get a drink and hang out? And I was a bit nervous because I was like, I don't really know you but I really would like that. And I did feel a bit like I think I'm nurturing a new friendship

and I really like her but it is a little bit so many people in my life have been here forever as you know Jordan so I do find making new friends. You've got a great network I do, don't I? I think, yeah, I've also got a new mate called Freddie

who that's almost entirely motivated by a shared fascination of the world. So every day, there'll be something we've seen online that will trigger a conversation. That's really interesting seeing that blossom. And he's younger than me too. So it's like, you know, maybe like a bit of a mentor vibe, I don't know.

Actually, he'll just crack up me saying that. Do you have friends that are older? Do you have friends? Because I have quite a lot of friends also that are like in their 50s? Yeah, I do. I do. I don't see the ones I used to see.

as much. I remember for a long time I used to hang out with this woman called Juliet she actually works in like that works with sustainable hotels and I met her in Ibifa and we just were mates

but I never thought about I never think about the age difference I never think about woman man I never thought about that I just like really liked to hang out of her and she's got this wonderful daughter called Kitty and we're just cool

and what about old friendships because I think also I've learnt this with Lil going back into directly back into to mainstream pop star worldwide shit. It's like, you know, me and Lily are quite used to this, these big gaps or when she moved to New York. But we really like make sure, I can feel us.

It's very sweet actually, probably because it missed me as well. But I can feel us making sure that we're nurturing each other from afar. Because of Miss Me, we're used to being so together so much all the time. And now it's like she's just gone. And I did feel a bit, I was a bit like, well, she's just gone. Yeah, a new stage. Yeah, but actually we've been talking more on the phone because we're not fucking sick of each other

because we're not doing missing with each other every week. So it's kind of like we've kind of got our friendship back a little bit because we suddenly became work friends. Work friends, yeah, yeah. Which is something we've never been. Happened with me and Harley too. Right. That's quite, it's quite weird.

So it's quite nice we've gone back to being quite giggly and silly and fucking around with each other on text. But I've got loads of friends. I won't see them for months. And then when I see them, it's just literally like it was yesterday. Yeah, that's my Lauren. I don't even feel away. I'm like, oh yeah, cool, bless.

Like, it's not. And I love that because I'm, like I say, I struggle sometimes with the nurturing thing because I'm just always chasing things or following things. I'm so like, you know, a dog with a scent and that's like my whole vibe. So sometimes I just forget or don't see, you know,

even when I've listed to friends, I've probably forgotten people who I adore who I speak to all the time, you know? Do you have that too where there are friends that you might not see for a year or two years and you see them and you're like, you're right? Yeah, absolutely. I was just about to say,

I get, people often say to me like, I'm like, hi, my God, it's good to see you. Fucking hell, it's been so. And people are like, I saw you last week. Like, I'm not very, you have the opposite. I'm really, too often. They're moving like Dory. Dory Cuts.

I'm a little bit like, what? But I'm very good at remembering people's names. But the reason we're sort of talking about this today is because the way we know each other has changed. And of course, there is this, well, I wonder what it's gold thing that we can blame. which is called the internet and social media, but we're not going to go down that road. We're actually going to talk about how it's changed the way

that we interact with each other because I know from just something like Instagram, the amount I know about people now, I ask different questions. I don't really ever say to anyone, what have you been up to anymore? I say, I saw that you did this and this. Sometimes I will lie.

Someone will go like, oh, I went to blah, and I'm like, oh, that's nice. Even though I'm like, yeah, I know I saw it on your fucking grid. So there is this kind of difference of like, too much knowledge of each other and it affecting how we interact with each other because there are some people I follow on Instagram but if I see them

I don't necessarily say hello to them but I know everything about them and they follow me back and know everything about me but I saw this girl in a coffee shop the other day and on Instagram I'll be like oh my God babe good for you or like yeah kill it and then in the coffee shop we couldn't even look at each other that's crazy

and there's all this intimacy with us online I'd just say it I did think I just feel like yes yes but then I was like no I don't really want to say hi to him

she didn't want to say her to me either and I got it I totally got it our intimacy lives there that's funny because I had the opposite I went to a gig

presenting it sorry I was presenting a show last week and in my friend's dressing room was this YouTuber that I watch all the time

and I walked in and was like and I just said this full name I was like oh Alex O'Connor and then we ended up literally talking for about two hours

because all these questions I had in my head watching him from a distance for me that's unapologetic like I'm not going to hide that shit and also that is how I engage with people I struggle with small talk when people spring up with a shared interest

like when I ring my friend Charlotte it's like that's what we're both like that one of us would have read a book or listen to a podcast that has completely blown our idea of life to smithereens and we've got to talk about it can we say who this friend is

because I think she's fantastic It's Charlotte Ritchie. Yeah. Actor. Fantastic actor. She's so funny. I was remembering. Do you know over last week I kept saying

seasonal clothing? I just remembered it's because she did this show. I think it was called Siblings or something. It was on the BBC. It was only one series, but it was hilarious. She has the best timing. She's unreal. She's so good.

And when she was at your play, I was a little bit like, oh my gosh, Charlotte Ritchie's here. I was really excited to see her. I'm really happy that you're friends with her. Well, I played her boyfriend in the TV. series. Oh. Okay.

I'm so glad you watched it. I'm like, that's nice. It's called Feel Good. It's really good. The show on Channel 4 with the non-binary

main character with blonde hair? Yeah, May. Fuck yeah. I did see it. First season on Channel 4, second season, Netflix. Okay. At least I know what you're talking about.

Anyway, the reason we're talking about this is because Parassocial has been named the word of the year. This is the Cambridge Dictionary. So Parassocial means involving or relating to a connection that someone feels between themselves and a famous person that they do not know. And my argument, which is what we've been discussing, is I believe that of everyone. I think we all think we know each other in that way now. I'm not saying that

everyone wants to be on Instagram. I'm saying this is the way 80% of us live today. Even if we don't want to, it's just a game that we're all playing. Quite a lot of us are currently playing together. From teachers to bin men to politicians to that everyone knows too much about each other. this parasocial thing when they relate it to just famous people kind of is defunct because I know everything about everyone now. I would argue just to be pedantic. Politicians do keep their shit to themselves.

Yeah. That is a public profile. They'll have finsters. I don't think politicians have finsters. They will do. A finster is when somebody creates an alternate Instagram profile only for their friends. It's usually private, not many followers. And they usually have a public

profile, which is the curated more curated version. I can't think of anything worse. It depends how you want to communicate with your friends. Here's another one that's a bit more real. Yeah, right. They're both curated. Well, one would be literally Zach Polanski

taking pictures of his dinner to show 20 people and one is him arguing with fascists. See, I would quite like to know what Zatolanski is for dinner. Yeah, well then you've got to try and ask to follow his finster and he'll decide whether or not he knows you well enough.

I know that I'm bound to a certain public profile because of the nature of my job. It's not out of the question for somebody to either have a private profile or not be on Instagram at all. I think that if I got to a place where... Charlotte doesn't have Instagram. Yes, exactly.

I think if I got to a place where I was making passive income, then I would get completely off social media. Passive income or just income... Like, this is the thing, like these people are on wages. No, passive income. As in I'm not having to get up every day to go to work to make money. I have built something that's making money while I sleep. For me, it's more like my job will actually suffer if I'm not public facing.

If I had a job that wasn't public facing, I wouldn't be on Instagram. Is that simple? That's not what I'm saying. I'm building something to eventually one day not be public facing. Do you think people, okay, do you think Instagram is even a actual indication of someone's life? That's probably a bit more, that's probably more poignant question. If you're saying that, like, if you're saying that we know about these people's lives because of their Instagram, do we, though? I'm not saying it's not curated, but I do know what Gwyneth Paltrow cooks for her boyfriend every morning because she does boyfriend breakfast.

She is a multi-millionaire with a company who is definitely... Who's her boyfriend? Don't you know their love story? She married Brad Fulchick, who was like Ryan Murphy's second-hound man. I think he was like the producer of Glee, and she did a Glee special. and she was bloody brilliant. I hated Glee, too. But she was bloody brilliant on it.

He's her husband. Yeah, it's her husband. But she still calls it boyfriend breakfast. Alliteration because of breakfast. There's not like hubby. Hubby hand shows or something. But I'm like, do you need to do this? Yeah, he was part of that vibe.

Do you need to do this going on the photo? Goop is definitely making money while you sleep. You're a public person, sure. But do you need to do boyfriend, hashtag boyfriend breakfast twice a week? I feel that's cool. It's not that it's not that I don't like it. I'm saying that is how much we feel we need to share. Why isn't that private?

Because I feel like that might be useful. You know what? I'll tell you this, right? McKenzie said something to me. This is actually a great way of tying in what we started with. McKenzie once said to me that, because I had this dilemma about my place, what's the point being public facing,

I do, da, da, da. Obviously, I have a better idea now because of the work I've done recently. but he was like, just try and be useful. That's all he said. Just try and be useful. Yeah, now I understand the service. I feel it as a duty or whatever else.

But that is, you know, the biggest, I think the transitional shock we've gone through in terms of celebrity is once we've gone into the world of influencers, which is now normal, that first transition was a shock because we're going like a lot of these people are just living and we're filming them live. And then that's enough for us to give them brand deals. And that's a confusing concept.

But ultimately, there are now, lifestyle influences, they might actually help people. I don't know. I'm just saying, if you feel Losea you're being useful, some people might want to know what they want to cook their fucking ponder for breakfast. Sure, and it's part of her brand. I'm not even mad at it.

I'm not angry with it. I'm not. I'm just, I'm not. Why's my dad's got a fucking boyfriend? Why is he so nice looking? Why is their house so pretty? People love that because it equalizes shit. I watch it, and I'm like,

That was nice. It's like Florence Pugh. She was live streaming herself cooking. Florence Pugh is a great chef. Yeah, I bet she is. Okay, here it is. If you were Gwyneth Paltrow, you're saying there's no way you'd catch me online. I'm done.

She's built this huge business and she's married and she's on well-being. On well-being. And this is what I mean? It's work. It's part of her brand to say I cook this for my husband because there's a lot of like, you know, she's also a very good cook and she had a cookbook, didn't she? And she did a cooking show. So it's part of her business.

I think that's what I'm saying. Where does the line between business and life blur? And I want, I suppose, in my future for that line to be less blood. Because when I was coming back five years ago, there was no line. I was like, this is my life, this is my everything, this is my hustle, this is me. Because I was doing something. But I want to get to a place where I'm giving something to the world and I don't need to give me anymore. Because it's all in what I give through the things I put out in the world.

I hear it. get it. It's a lot of pressure. And I do think that we live in a world where privacy is probably the ultimate currency. That is probably the ultimate signification of freedom. But yeah, I don't know. I think parasycial is tough in it. The parosocial term was first used in 1956 to describe the one way attachment viewers felt to knowing personalities on TV. It gave an illusion of intimacy. And I suppose what I'm saying is that is just everyone now. It's not people on TV. it's not film stars, it's just everyone. The illusion of intimacy

is 80% of the way we all share this world together because of social media. That was my friend. Now you take us from this to lighting. Good luck. Well, actually, it'd probably be best if we go for a break and then bring it in afterwards. Isn't that look at you, you slick fucker?

Well, welcome back to Miss Me. We're now going to discuss lighting. No, you've got to do it better than that. You can't be like, we're now going to discuss life. No, I'm linking it. Look, Mekita, I know you're the queen of linking. It's like you get a little high every time you manage to segue off one thing to another.

And we love you for it. Miquita, we love you for it. It's one of the greatest strengths you have as a broadcaster, which is a job that you now hate. Just call me Queen Linky. Queen what? You're fucking done. I didn't say I hate my job. I love my shop.

I love my shop. years and I'm done with it. I think it's what you just said. I love my job. Roll the clips. Roll the clips. Fucking roll it. Sorry. We actually could have segued because one thing you do get a little taster of with this new transparency we found between

just a person online and another person online. Sometimes we had this mystique that came with fame and celebrity. We'd have to assume the lives they lived. I've had before social media, I remember bumping into somebody. Actually, this memory just unlocked. I left Clapham junk station I was walking somewhere and this guy bumped into me and it must have been like kind of the peak of Rizzle kicks or just after and he went like raw you're in Rizzle kicks

and I went yeah and he went what are you doing here and I was like what do you mean and he was what are you doing walking and clap him I was like what do you what do you think I'm going to be or where else can I where else would I be what I don't know but that is the thing is there's a mystique when in reality I just getting a train to my friends house yeah but in his head you're in a bubble in a fame bubble doing fame things and the way the way the dream has been put out, it's like I must be floating above everyone else, just wiping my ass with money and just living in a constant state of capitalist content, which just doesn't exist. But now he'd know what you and Jay's kitchen looks like. And now he'd know how he'd light

the house if I wanted to show them. Exactly. Which is, and listen, we can talk about lighting because, oh, that's crazy. Stop! What the fuck? No. That's crazy. The Ghost of Lighting This is an audio show So we'll just say that the Ghost of Lighting Just came in to just quickly turn Jordan's light off As he said, let's talk about lighting

That's crazy I feel like you need to burn some sage No man, I like ghosts I like Ghosts Okay, let's welcome them in Ghost to revive Spike Oh shit

The Ghost is with us You sort of your lights out But the ghost is obviously with us That was deep Sorry Anyway back to lighting The ghost of lights turned off the light. That was it.

You know what? I've got something to bring us right back into lighting town. Nicholas Grimshaw's views on lighting. Can we get a playback of that? I'm just sending you a quick voice note because Makita just called me to say, we had a quick chat and she basically came to the finale that I'm uptight about lighting. I am actually. I'm quite particular about lighting at home because I want to feel cozy.

I don't want to feel overstimulated in my house. I'm annoying. My dogs are annoying. I play annoying music and watch annoying things. Like there's enough stimulation. I don't need halogen to be adding to that. There was a lot of like overhead lighting and strip lighting and halogen light balls when I moved in. I don't know if they were dentists. We're in a dental surgery or something, but the kitchen was particularly bright and I took them out and put lamps in the kitchen. So the kitchen's lit by lamps on shelves, a lamp on my island and nice like paper lamps in the corner because I think it's just about feeling cozy and cocooned through lighting at home.

Because I don't agree with me speak so eloquently and, you know, loquaciously about lighting. I knew he'd give a shit. I knew he was the right person. It's so important. It really is. And my childhood was filled with poverty. And bless my mom, she used to buy colored light bulbs because she thought that they would

make the house feel cozier, but let me tell you, a naked blue bulb is not cozy. And she'd buy blue for the bathroom and red for the sitting room. And I'm now really, like, highly affected by seeing naked colored bulbs. They remind me of being poor, actually. Really? So my mom didn't really have enough money for, like, lamp shades and stuff. Colored lighting makes you feel poor. Yes.

That's crazy. Yes. Because colored light bulbs don't give you a warm. glow. That's not what they do, especially the fucking blue one in the bathroom. It gives it a sort of like bed sit, halfway house feel, which we kind of word. I get it. Don't you feel like lighting was what your rich friends had down? Like their parents would have like lamps and dimmers. That's what I like. I never had a dimmer switch. That sent that felt like that felt on some different levels. I wrote in my book about my mom's lighting and as a kid. Oh yes. Let's

hear that. It's a better way of me like I said I read it better in my book than I could now. Do you know what I mean? So I was just trying to find out what it was. It's hard to search. Well, it's about our circadian rhythm. But my mom had good lighting just to be clear. Oh, good for Emma. Because you lot didn't have loads of money either.

So what kind of lighting did you have? No, it was a council flat. But like it was all lamps, no overhead lights. No overhead lights ever. And overhead lights should be banned. I agree. I don't, I don't, I don't, overhead lights feel racist to me. I can't explain it.

They just do. You mean? You know what it's like the, there's a thing on Twitter. where it's like explain something that isn't racist but feels racist. Mine is overhead lighting. It feels like authoritarian. It's like you cannot hide. I will make you shop.

Right. Okay. So this is to do with the circadian rhythm, which is your body's natural 24 hour cycle that regulates sleep and weightfulness and it's primarily influenced by light and darkness. And my cousin Sullivan's friend has this business that is like based on like you being in charge of your salkadian rhythm and like following the salkadian rhythm of nature and like the daylight and nighttime. So when we put lights on at nighttime that have blue elements, especially our

phone, like the phone light is completely blue. It actually revs us up and gets our adrenaline going in not a good way. It doesn't get us into that rhythmic. I just want to play. Can we play what Sully said? He explains it a hell of a lot fucking better than me. So the premise is that it's come to light, that light energy has a particular effect on our hormonal systems and moods and just is very, very important with regard to our circadian rhythm, which is how our sort of biological clock moves in tune with the universe. So what I was saying to you guys over there is like, for example, the different light spectrums that we experienced throughout the day,

like the early morning light as the sun comes up, it's quite a specific type of blue light that creates certain processes of like cortisol production to sort of start your day and then you should be active, you're up, you should be hunting, gathering, you know, in a sort of evolutionary sense. And then, you know, as the sun goes down and it starts to dim and there are more orange lights and warmer red lights, that's telling your brain it's getting dark. It's time to light a fire. It's time to start producing melatonin to get to sleep.

And obviously the modern world disrupts that massively because of all of the artificial blue and green light. That's about our screens that we look at. People's brains are out of whack. And a lot of it is to do with lighting. That was really informative. Wasn't that good? Yes, it was.

No, genuinely. It's very informative. Yeah. But do you check your phone late at night? Do you do that? Yes. First thing in the morning, do you do that? No.

Yes. But only because my aura apps on it. I hate that my aura apps on it. So I have to go, I pick up my phone. I'm like, to medicate. And then I throw it away and I'm like in my meditation. Yeah, the screenlight thing is pretty wild. I've heard stuff about that with the research before.

Just to go back to overhead lighting, I really, really don't believe in it. And the comeback I've had before is you'll hurt your eyes. If you can't see something, your eyes will strain. But I've spent my whole life in the dark. So I feel like, I don't know, man. A lot of my friends are getting glasses. I don't want to hex anything. Didn't you say that you can see in the dark to me,

the other day, you can see in the dark. I was being extreme, but my point is, so, for example, I've scared a few people who've come into the house before because if I start doing a task in dusk, it will be night. And I would have still, I would still be doing it. So they'll walk into the room

and I'm just in total darkness basically. And I'm doing something. I'm like, how can you, in his eye, I didn't even notice? I'm like, how can you not? I'm like constantly up with my dimmers, like moving with the light outside. I'm like, oh, it's gone down a bit.

Let me just bring that out. The less light, the better for me. Nah, I need it like... Or natural light. I don't like curtains either, so I wake up to the sun. Yes, absolutely. Me too. I have no curtains.

But in winter, it's hard. But my mum used to always draw the curtains and sleep in because she wasn't really working when I was a kid. And I hated it. So I've never had curtains. Can't do the blackout thing. It doesn't feel like it's the morning. Unless you've actually gone to bed at like four or five.

I kind of understand that. Just before we finish, you're into overhead lighting. No, I fucking hate it. But I have dimmers. on everything in this new flat. And there weren't. I asked Tom Matty to come and put some in. Oh my God,

can I ask you one question? This is really important. I need the answers to this from you. Okay. In commerce, yeah. So, like, we go into a shop. The majority of shops, other than, I think, maybe Abercrombian fit.

No, was it Hollister or something? You have, like, really dim, dim lights. Sure. Like, most shops is horrendous, like, over the head bulbs, right? But the thing that blows my mind the most is I would go into a dressing room, a changing room to put on clothes.

Changing room lighting. Totally. And I'll look fucking. horrendous. They look like shit. But I don't buy things because I'm like, God, I look for an awful. Got this.

No, but this is the thing. People joke about, oh, you always look like shit in a changing room. Why wouldn't you put, like, sinning mirrors and light it from the sides? I'd buy everything I went in the changing room with.

Like a little bit of glowy side light. It's against commerce. You're right. Or light the mirror. Just light the mirror. A front facing light in every, you know what I mean? It's a money thing.

So you think it's a money. It probably is. I was going to say it over. heads, which is funny. It's like double entendre. Thank you, Jordan. You're a fucking genius. You too.

Let's end on Grimmy talking about why he likes lamps. That's great. I think having, you know, non-neon, non-halogen, different lights and lamps around the house sort of gives a safe feel. And I think that's nice for us, nice for the dogs, nice for guests. Lighting, I think, really acts as an emotional cue. It's kind of like the silent director of a scene, be it in. in film or video or someone on telly or your house.

You know, it sort of decides on the emotional feel of that room. And I think it's good to have your different lights at different levels, in different places. So you're getting mixed light and you're able to change where the light is coming from. What is that job that Grimmy should do? Because he's so good at this shit, Jordan. What is it? Interior design. Oh, yeah.

He does. And he is doing that. Yeah. We've both been to Grimmy's house and I have to say, it's lovely over at Grimmy. the lighting does make you feel safe. He's got the taste on luck. It's not me to have groovy pot of missing me for a minute.

Okay, I'm going to go. I'm Audi. Jeez. I'll check you later. See you later, Keats. A good place to look for lighting references is noticing how you feel in your favorite restaurant

or your favorite bar or somewhere where you feel it feels like a treat, maybe a hotel that you love. They're always a good, easy place to go in and seek inspiration from, I think. Thanks for listening to Miss Me. This is a Percephonica production for BBC Sounds.

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