Miss Me? - Just Take a Lover

Episode Date: May 21, 2026

Miquita Oliver and Jordan Stephens discuss dating apps, Monty Don, flowers and Loose Men.This episode contains very strong language and adult themes. Credits: Producer: Natalie Jamieson Technical Producer: Oliver Geraghty Assistant Producer: Caillin McDaid Production Coordinator: Rose Wilcox Executive Producer: Dino Sofos Commissioning Producer for BBC: Jake Williams Commissioners: Dylan Haskins & Lorraine Okuefuna Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

This episode of Miss Me contains very strong language, adult themes and discussions about sexual violence. Hi, my Godin. How the hell are you today, darling? Why did you say my full name? That feels like an attack. I quite like giving you a full grandeur of your name. Jordan, fucking Stevens. What are your middle names?

I have, I do have a middle name actually, but it's not important. It's not important. The middle name I thought I had is an actually. my middle name and I found that out when I was about 14. Okay, so what did you think you had? Jason. I thought my middle name was Bootsie. Oh, after Collins.

After Collins. Actually, it's... I thought my middle name was Bootsie, but when I was about 13 or 14, I went to get a bus ID and I guess it included giving my birth certificate or something. I don't even know what. But anyway, it came back and said, Jordan F. Stevens, and I remember saying to my mum, like, what's this F? And she was like, oh,

yeah, your middle name's actually Fontenelle. Okay, Emma. And she was like, yeah, yeah, when you gave back, when, when I, you know,

in the hospital, we just kind of like put down the middle name, it's signed to do of your grand. But, but, you know, and I was like, oh, sweet. Say again, Fontanel.

Is it like one of those, I'm pretty sure it's French for like the soft part of a baby's head. Wow. It's fucking bizarre, to be honest. Sounds nice if you don't,

know that. But do you identify with it as it? Because I really identify with all my names. And I have quite a lot. Well, no, because when I was a kid, I used to try and, I told people my name was Jordan Stevens, Bootsie Stevens, as my full name. Stevens. Or it could be like Jordan Stevens, Bootsie, Bolting, Stevens.

Obviously, if I have my mum's maiden name Bolting. But no, I just write Jordan Stevens. And then I say Jordan F. Stevens sometimes because I like the idea that the F could mean loads of stuff. But we're never really saying Fontanelle. Fantastic. Funky boy. Jordan Freaky Stevens.

Jordan Funky's Diennes. Do you want to know what my middle names are? Yeah, go on. Billy, after Billy holiday. So wouldn't it be great if you were Bootsie and I was Billy? Yeah, that's kind of cold. Jam. And then Alexandra, which I found out was,

it's probably why I love Alexandra Palace, but I found out it was my dad's, my dad and my grandfather had a bit of a tricky relationship, but my dad loved his grandfather and he was called Alexander. So it was really nice to have that. Yeah. Nice. He was like, he's a really kind, good man.

I wanted you to be a kind, good person, so I thought I'd give you his name. Nice. Really nice. Yeah, I like that. But, you know, it's weird. I was with a friend the other day and we were talking about like life path path for names. Because I know the life path for birthdays, but I don't know. I didn't know the life path for names.

And it's really fascinating, actually. And I put in the name I want to change my last name to. Oh, yes, because you did say you want to change your last name. And the numbers were crazy. Which brings me on something I want to talk to you about, Makita. Yeah. I had the pleasure last week of interviewing Monty Don. No, listen, you text me and you said, what is he?

Oh, this is, you're really going to do me like this or miss me? No, no, no, you just said, what is it? You love about him? And I was like, why do you care suddenly today? You're so mysterious. You didn't say, P.S. because I'm interviewing him. But I did give you an answer, right? And I think it was good.

Okay. How could you not have told me that you were spending the afternoon with him? And you looked like you were at Longmeadow. Were you at Longmeadow? No, I was at the pig. Oh, okay. Which, by the way, I went to the wrong one. Yeah, my mom's done that before.

But I mean, as in I went to the Cotswolds and I was supposed to be in Arundel in Sussex. And you know what's crazy is that I bowled out the car in Cotswolds, different county, right? Yes, yes. And I bowled out the car in Cotswolds, I walk in. I'm like, hi, how are you doing, guys, Jordan Stevens? You're not staying here.

I was like, what? I was there for an event. And they went, what event? I went, right. And no signal on my. My phone, I went, how many pigs are there? They went six. I was like, oh, there's not just the one in Cotswolds.

And then the irony was, I said to everyone when I got there after, you know, in total five hours of driving, which is ridiculous. I got there and I was like, I went, no, I'm sorry, I went to Cotswolds because that's the one everyone goes to after Glastonbury. And then I went, nope, that's in Bath. Yeah, that is the other one. That is the other one. Do you know what?

Don't make me get out my UK counties map, which is coloured and large. Sorry, guys, literally calm down. Because we could visually show how wrong you were. Oh, you know, I was two and a half hours wrong. Two and a half hours wrong. Jordan! What are we going to do? And there was one point where I was so dysregulated by being like two and a half hours late.

Well, even more. But anyway, that I then missed a turning on the way back. Sorry, so it was actually three hours in the end. And I just drove straight into like station. like as in someone had had an accident on the motorway and I actually shed a single tear. I bet you fucking did. I bet you did.

It just rolled down just like this and I was on the phone to McKenzie. Oh, that's the right person to call. What have we learnt? What are we going to try and do to help you? It was just a strong reminder that in spite of being, at the moment, medicated,

my ADHD still has an ability to rear its wonderful head and do things like type in The Pig and press enter and just go for it. That's super power. will not be tamed. It's not a superpower. Yes, it is. It's not a superpower.

It's not. Sorry, sorry. Let me be less brutal. I, Jordan Stevens, do not consider ADHD to be superpower. Well, I bet you then went. Met Monti-John, Charmed him. Yes, so this is my point. I was sorry, just to clarify that,

I understand why people say ADHD is a superpower, by the way, especially to young people who are, like, struggling, feeling like a little bit outcast, whatever. The reason I say that is because I don't like this idea that being neurotypical is like a non-superpowered experience. For me, I am actively wanting my child to be neurotypical. I would love my child to just be able to sit peacefully alone. So that's ultimately why I do it.

Like I don't want to detract from the reasons as to why I think ADHD exists. I think partly genetic, partly nature, and the nature element is like why are your parents not there more? I don't know, maybe because they're working 17 jobs to stay alive, that kind of thing. That we should focus on the reasons why kids don't have more nurturance when they're young. That's my opinion. So anyway, Monty's like story of his childhood is genuinely fascinating. Tell me.

Tell me. Well, he went to boarding school a couple of times. And, you know, he's from a generation where just a generation before him and certainly the one before before him have been through like actual generational trauma. You know, they've been in the war. They have like maybe killed people, survived bombings. Like they're carrying a different level, a whole other, an unimaginable level of stress. And then actually even Monty's mother, who he attributes his initial entrance into gardening

too. She kind of forced him and his siblings to garden. And so he initially hated gardens. Wow. But he was, he, he then ended up as a teenager having this kind of euphoric moment while holding a carrot that he had grown himself and realized that gardens actually were everything he wanted in life. He actually knew his way around the garden really young because of his mom who was pretty hardcore. You know, she said she was, you know, stern to say the least. But the reason I mentioned Monty in that name thing is his name is actually Montague and he had said in a previous interview that he had another name basically he has another name he has a middle name he has all these things but Monty Don has very much become his like alter ego you know in avert comma stage

name yeah and he can and he can exist within that space and only a handful of people would call him Montague I do I just think it's the most healthy thing that you can do that neither of us understand absolutely I need to find who this like other Mickey's all of a person is and try and separate the two a little bit more. Monty can help us with that. But you know, there's also this idea of like becoming a gardener is not a direct route to fame and he's suddenly, not suddenly, but over the last sort of 10, 15 years, become not only extremely famous but loved, treasured, treasured.

He's a national treasure. That's a lot to hold when you don't feel perfect. How old do you think he is? Don't, let's play, because you know I'm good at this. Go. I would say Monty Don is probably older than my mum I would say he's probably 72 Damn

You know what? You are actually very close He is 70 Which surprised me but good guess Fuck off good guess That's basically the same I won that That's actually an incredible guest It's a gift It's a gift

It's not a guess It's a gift Well done It's a burden Actually I was impressed because I was taken aback I was shocked when he dropped that No, of course he's seven years. He's been with his partner for 47 years. Yeah, absolutely. And I was both shocked and associated by the fact that this meeting of minds had happened.

Because I really feel like you would have so much to discuss, so much that your values that you care about, that you're working with people on a line in that way. And I don't know, I just feel like at this time in your life, it was a really good man to spend an afternoon with. I was there for an event for a, like, British brand. which is cool. You know, they have like an affiliation with certainly working outside. It was cool, man. I think I must have been asked to do the conversation because I've spoken about like how much nature has helped me stay balanced. And actually Monty said something that was like really profound and has stayed with me. And I've shared with like three or four people since because I was like, well, where we were discussing, you know, just immediately discussing, you know, his, you know,

connection with the outside world. And I said to him, well, but I really love being in nature because, you know, when I go out of nature, I feel like an actual level of connection and calmed down. And he went, he stopped me and said, that was a really big bug bear of his. And I went, because when we go outside, we're not going into nature.

We are nature. We're just, we're maintaining a connection that we should already have. Right. That's interesting. He then extended that point to him. He had a bit of critique for rewilding as a concept, you know that people say they're going to buy land and let it grow and just be but his kind of idea was you know if we're to pay attention to the world around us pay attention to how a plant grows where it

grows why it grows like what benefits that particular ecosystem the introduction or the perhaps like prevention of certain animals insects whatever we have the ability to tend to the earth and actually bring like encourage growth like you know there'll be tangible evidence that we're making a positive shift. Absolutely. And that shouldn't be seen, but that shouldn't be seen as separate. It should be seen as like, that is, yes, we are nature. So our role in nature should be to, to create life. Yes, I love that. To encourage life force. And that actually, you know, I say that all the time. We're going into nature. And that is, that conversation crosses into so many different topics, you know, like to remind ourselves that we are natural. We are made of exactly the same things as everything else. I think it's kind of sobering to hear that. So it was also to

hear it from Monty Don. To hear it from Monty fucking Don. It's like, it really must be true. It really must be true. So I mean there's so many ways of living that I'd be interested in what he's learned and what he has to teach in terms of gardening, mirroring living. Well, he was giving Buddhist vibes. Yeah.

Buddhist vibes. Yeah. I think he spent a lot of time in Asia. You know, he really has gone around the world gardening. Yeah. I mean, it was around the world and 30 gardens or something. And then he, as I said, maybe to you or maybe. Maybe it was Lil on this show, that he then came home and did British Gardens,

which I loved that series. I loved. But I missed him because I, for the first time, was invited to Chelsea Flower Show. I've made it, Jordan. I've fucking made it. Is that a bromometer of making it? For me, I was like, it's over. Why?

Who gets invited to Chelsea Flower Show? Because that's the only thing I've ever wanted to be invited to my life. It's the only thing you've ever wanted to be invited to. Yeah, for the last 10 years And I never get invited Alright Chelsea Flower Show or BAFTAs Pick one Oh my God, you bastard

I don't know Probably want to host a BAFTA winning episode of the Chelsea Flower Show Yeah, sick I saw all the presenters there I was like, okay, okay, noted, noted It's definitely a job I want one day Like it's...

What presenters? Is it on Sky Sports? It's on BBC, babe. Oh yeah, sorry. And it's... Don't you know what happens in the week of Chelsea Flower Show. So it opens. And then on Sunday night, you have, like, getting ready for Chelsea Flower Show.

And then on Monday to Friday, you have the 2 o'clock afternoon coverage. And then you have the serious 8 o'clock coverage. How does, am I the only person that knows this? Nat, you must know this as well. I've never watched it in my life. It's so comforting. When you say coverage, do you mean they just film the flowers? Yeah.

And, like, do VTs about, like, the history of the actual, like, thing, which I loved, like the Chelsea Flower Show. It started in like the mid-1800s, and then it was in Fleet Street for a long time. Red or Monopoly. Decent purchase. It's been, it's really evolved into something that I just, I see as like the backbone of summer life in England. When it happens, you know that summer is a fish. Yeah.

Wow. What do you mean? The backbone of summer life, she says, as I gaze into a miserable grace. Yeah, when the Chelsea Flower Show starts, you're like, it's summer. Is it? I know it's raining today. And it was shapping at the flower show. But Grimmie said it's usually really warm.

Grimmie was there with Eileen. I saw him and his mum. Shout out. Shouty. O'tie. But wait, it's my kind of event. It's like Timothy Spall, Folella Benjamin.

Who else did I see? Dominic West and the king. Do you say the king? Of course the king's there. It's the Royal Horticultural Society. Oh, right. that are behind the Chelsea Flower Show so it's all quite monarchy,

aligned, affiliated even. But it's just classy. I mean, maybe I'm just getting old, but me and Tallfibu were like, this is our kind of event. This is what we've been waiting for. It's perfect. I was very, very impressed.

And then they had this beautiful garden for Tate Britain, which they're then going to extract from Chelsea Flower Show and move to Milbank. I can't get my head around how they move gardens. Because if you think about a garden, it's had time to like breathe and grow together and kind of like become.

And these people are building these gardens to feel that that way within two weeks. They've got to feel like a garden that's had time to like become what it's going to be. And they make it feel like that. They do that. It's just extraordinary work. And I watched all the coverage this week. And I'm just very impressed by everyone. Must be quite peaceful.

What's my meditative? Just looking at plants. Oh, it was... That's cool. What's your favourite flower? Do you have one? Yeah, Cosmos. I'll have a look.

Googling it now. I know my business after it. Cosmos flower. It's very beautiful, quite hardy, quite strong. Oh, cool. Like a real strong pink. Oh, there's variations. Oh, is a pink, electric pink and white?

That's fucking good. Yeah, they're beautiful. Or they can be like orange and yellow. They got orange. Yeah. That's my shit. Yeah, just bold. I like it.

You could do with doing some gardening. I think it'd be great for you. Don't you feel like that after talking to Monty? Yeah, massively, yeah. It's changed my life. It has changed my life. This week I understood why. Oh, I think I can tell you one of my favourites.

But your favourite flower? One of. Okay. I can't go as far as to say. Okay. Adalia. Oh yeah, sure. People love Adalia.

Do you know what? I sense that there's something to do with the, like, those petals, I feel like there's going to be some trippy psychedelic shit about the amount of petals. But the thing is, if you look at plants and flowers, they are trippy. You don't have to really look that hard to realize that, like, creation is insane. and the beauty of what has been put into this world around us is like unfathomable. Completely unfathomable. You can't really get your head around it.

You're not really meant to, I don't think. If you look at like the patterns and flowers, it's also fucking symmetrical and like premeditated and thought out. Yeah, it's gorgeous. It's like a pine cone, the same thing. It's the parallels between nature and the human body, which are very exciting. Have you watched the Leonardo da Vinci documentary? I'm going to send you the link to it. It's so good.

How many two more documentaries do you watch a week? Maybe four or five. That's actually really impressive. That's genuinely really impressive. That's my favourite thing to do. I'm like, right, we find a Leonardo da Vinci documentary. I mean, the guy was, you know, he's pretty switched on, when he?

Listen, in this documentary, it's really beautifully made. It's American, they made it in America. So Leonardo da Vinci, I think he's born sort of mid to late 15th century and then, you know, he's already making the most beautiful work. and not just that, asking the most interesting questions. And he's already looking at the anatomical similarities between a bird and a human's back and the way that we stretch out our arms

and the way the wingspan comes out. And then relating that to like landscape and Fibonacci sequence, the shape on a snail, like, you know, the spiral that you see on a snail that's also in stone masonry. I think Fibonacci's pine cone too, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that would totally be there.

It's like that's... We named a gland after a pine cone, a pine cone, also the pine cones, I think, like, the Pope has one on his staff and that, like the ancient symbols. This is what I mean, if we start looking at, say, we're going to do symbols, I think we said symbols and signs for this and bitch. It's got true of life in the back, what we say in, bon-bon. Yeah, I love that tree of life. But if you are, if you're suddenly aware and awake and looking at symbols and the mirror, mirroring symbols between, like human life and nature, as you said, it is all one. Yeah. We are, we are nature. Lungs look like inside of an orange, right, like Clementine. Yeah, children.

And then... Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's... I love all of those stuff. Me too. I love feeling like we are nature. Yeah.

I like that. Absolutely. Right, let's talk about you on Loose Men. Do you know why I know? Because Spencer Matthews comes up to me at the Chelsea Voucho. It's like, yes, buddy. I'm like...

Of course she was there. When did I become on that same basis with all the Made in Chelsea crew for a second time? But it's because I used to work with his wife on something. Oh, Vogue. Yeah. So yeah, they said that he said that he'd done the loose men panel with you and that you were excellent.

That's nice of him. I go out a lot in here and have people now tell me how excellent you are. I'm like, okay, all right. Yeah, I know. Really? Yeah. Well, I can assure you there are many people who don't feel that way. They just maybe don't say it to you personally.

Okay, well, Debbie Downer, let's just stick with the people that think you're excellent. Just being balanced. Listen, a lot of pressure, a lot of pressure saying things. People need to know I'm irritating and I can piss people off. Yes, that's true. And I do. actually I get people I send me abuse quite a lot actually

but yeah I did loose men I thought why not you know daytime TV like mainstream vibes why not I was me Spencer Craig Doyle TV legend and Jeff Brazier who I had just done a men's circle with

everyone was really cool yeah man I don't know I just I was supposed to be on it a while ago and then I wasn't and then they I thought it was just gonna be a guest but no they they wanted to run the whole show three or four themes. And like, I just thought it would be cool

to get some variation. You never know. You never know who's watching. You know, why not? You never know why it might happen if you say yes to loose men. Yeah. I did loose women.

I was a guest on loose women last year. Yeah, I mean, loose women is interesting because it comes from the view, doesn't it? Which was started by, I didn't realize it started by Barbara Walters, who was the most extraordinary broadcaster

that America has ever seen in this century. And she kind of, do you know what? I think she might have sort of invented the intimacy within the podcast because her interviews, I've watched some of them recently. Like there's a great documentary about her as well. And she, because she comes from news, her goal is the truth, right?

Whether you're Barbara Streisand or Fidel Castro. And so she would go for the story, right, rather than a celebrity fawning interview. And I think that you don't really get that now. What you get is podcasts where people reveal themselves and are intimate. But she really brought that to like a mainstream type of interviewing. Then she started this thing called The View, which was the first female-fronted daytime talk show. And it was like big hit. It was like Whoopi Goldberg and shit.

And it really did change things. And then I think Loose Women is sort of a mirror of that or sort of came from that. What do you think Loose Women is there for to give a voice to? You know me, man. I love discussion. I love seeing any kind of discussion. And I think Lose Women, firstly, can introduce like great characters. I know Judy Love does it a lot.

and I absolutely love, Julie Love. I think she is of benefit too many people. Yes. And so, like, you know, bringing people into the fold, perhaps, it's like a certain niche. It's not as, like, exclusory as many of the entertainment industry might have been for women that, you know, above the age of, like, fucking 28 or something.

It's true. It has always been at the forefront of, like, diversity as well, as well as an agelessness. Yeah, yeah. And I think the reason why podcasts have, blown up is because like people like here and other people talk. Like we like exchanging stories. We like having an opinion on things.

You know, people, people are drawn to people's characters and then will measure their own opinions against how their favorite person thinks about something, you know, which is like quite a human thing. It's kind of bizarre that it can be a person we don't really know or like that lives thousands of miles away. That's not new. But I guess in the community, that's always been a thing.

You know, I wonder what thing he thinks about this. So yeah, and, you know, loose man, I think it happens like twice a year. And I guess also important just to see... Definitely. What did you guys talk about? Well, we talked about a few things. I think we'd mentioned it in passing on this.

It was the online kind of rape academy is how it's been coined. It was many people visiting a website, but then at the heart of it, like, undoubtedly, there was at least a thousand men in a telegram group exchanging details on how they abused their wives. They actually raped their wife. It's horrendous. And it's occupied a lot of talking space. I had said my piece on what I thought about it a month ago

and have had very interesting conversations since and I had to question myself quite a lot because I have quite impassioned views about how we should deal with sexual violence as a society. That was the clip they posted and that clip has then again gone some kind of viral and then I've had like a similar pushback from people um I guess it's it's difficult to talk about but what I said that they chose the post and I'm happy they did was I would really love us when I'm talking about sexual violence to to focus as much as possible on the survivors right

like to focus as much as possible on the experience of somebody who has had to go through that well I suppose that's why the world sort of uh all turned to Giselle pellicott and made sure that it felt like for the first fucking time ever, it was a story about the survivor. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I think, and I hope, would have at least given an opportunity for there to be a conversation and an understanding.

But listen, it's a very, it's a very tough subject because they're very defensive men and equally they're defensive women. Of course. I think sometimes when I talk out about this stuff, I get some pushback that, like, in some way I'm positioning, myself as like a good guy in a voter commas. Like, look at me, I don't like sexual violence.

And I think I'm trying to be balanced and open about it. Like in the last, you know, whatever, 12 years in my life, there's loads of people that I've like intervened with and made feel uncomfortable because I don't agree about how they're talking about women and shit. I do it all the time. It's just like weird. It's like I have to pretend to be more problematic than I am so that I can say that I hate rapists and not seem like I'm trying to like win points.

I've spoken obviously in my book about being a shit boyfriend and being egged on as a young famous man to have sex with loads of women and shit like that and that I'm not, you know, I'm having to still untangle and deal with. Like, you know, that's like a lot of the therapy work I've done. It's like understanding what consent means from a male perspective as in like I feel almost like egged on by like society

into situations that I don't even have wanted to be part of, that kind of thing. So but yeah and I would have partaken in listening to like offensive records. or like lyrics or, you know, yeah, maybe some early conversation. In my teens, definitely, like in my teens just saying mad shit that, you know, would be considered manasphere-esque now. But, yeah, I'm conflicted. Thank you for your fucking accountability, Jordan.

Honestly, it's refreshing. Yeah, well, I just, I would like to believe that in that both those things can exist. I can understand that that's something that I've grown up, like, assimilating into. And yet I still have very extraordinary. views on sexually violent people, like, because that is how I feel like this really in my body. Yeah, it just is. It's just how I feel. You don't have to agree.

Because I'm not trying to engage in morality. And in fact, my view on how I believe we should deal with extreme sexual violence isn't a very moral view, to be honest. I'm just trying to find a way to handle how I feel having spoken to many women around me and understanding what it is that. they've been through and have to continue to go through. And I feel a rage. I don't know if it's a good rage, a bad rage, I don't know what it is, right?

And no, I'm not saying that I've acted perfectly my whole life, but I still have that feeling, you know? Yeah. And I think it's more, I think it's almost more useful for me to say how I feel about it and how much disgust to me just to potentially deter one person, then it would be to stay quiet out of fear that, you know, I was like a dickhead and as a boyfriend or whatever when I was 19. Yeah, but listening to a man even discuss it is important.

I think. Do you genuinely think that? Acknowledging it, yeah. The lack of accountability with men is just tedious and exhausting. You're just acknowledging that this is an important conversation. That for me feels good. I'm really pleased that you were in such a mainstream place talking about something like this.

No matter how uncomfortable everyone may have felt and if no answers were found, it doesn't matter. I don't think this is something to be solved this week. this is something to just keep pouring attention over. You know, I was watching something the other day and Oprah was saying that Tina Turner's, Tina Turner and Oprah's generation were the first generation of women

to talk about physical abuse, child abuse, sexual abuse. It's not that long ago. Yeah. It's not that long ago. Do you know what I'm saying? So these are still conversations in their infancy. What happened to Giselle Pelicot and how she became sort of the face of this moment of the survivor's story

felt far too, new and like some sort of anomaly. And that's probably why these conversations make people uncomfortable because we haven't got anywhere yet. But also it feels like that similar thing. Like you know, sometimes when you get people, including myself, who will critique, say like capitalism and people will say, well, you know,

you've bought something yesterday or like you have a phone. So it's like invalidating that I'm participating in capitalism so I can't critique it. Maybe something towards that. Like by saying that I, I don't think there's any place for literally any human being being sexually violent in our communities. I don't think there's any place at all. That's not me going, can you please see that I'm a good person?

No. It's me saying like, yes, 100%. Like I said, I would be more than willing to engage with like how I've been in the past. But it's definitely not to the extent that I'm discussing. Of course. I can say that for sure. And I wouldn't want people to stay quiet out of a fear. I don't know.

I don't know, man. It's very, it's very confusing. It's complicated. But thank you for talking about how you feel. The other thing is it's men and women as well, just to be clear. And I say that in the clip too. Like, obviously this is more of an everyday lived experience for women from a sexually violent perspective. But the most, I think I have to look it up, I'm pretty sure the most prolific rapist in British legal history.

I'm actually reading it here and it's 159 sex offences. What's his name? Raynard Sinaga. I have never even heard of him. He was in Manchester. He would drug. predominantly heterosexual men. He would drug them,

take them to his house, rape them and film it. But it's just like interesting because it's, it just like, I think slightly, I'm hoping, because obviously people weaponise things

all the time, but it just like creates like a more nuanced outlook on sexual violence because it's not just, we're not just like blaming all men for all things. It's like, men are victims. Yeah,

other victims as well. Obviously we want to change culture. So that is never even something entertained for a second. And I talk about that as well. You know, I grew up in a time where rape jokes were like really normal. Yeah.

Like when Eminem was number one, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember that shit. We have to talk about dating apps. How would you like to get us there from this? God, that's such a fucking wild transition. Anyway, talking of sexual, well, there's dating apps. Dating apps. So the reason I was wanting to talk about dating apps

is because I was at the pub with our friends, Grimmie and Meish, and then like a sort of eight of Mish's friends who were all boys. And there was a moment, It was like bank holiday. Everyone was quite drunk and merry. And there was a moment where they had taken out one of the boys', bless him, rare profiles. And what, not just not taking him apart, but just somewhat curiously dissecting it.

And it was very strange to see someone in their dating profile next to them as a real human being. You don't usually see the two at the same time. And it made me feel like we are so removed from what we, decide to be when desirability is at stake. Like, when you want to be desired, how do you put yourself across? What are the things you want to say about yourself when you want to be desired?

And his was very like, he had him in like a nice suit. He'd said something about like big boss day today. And we were like, where were you really going? He was like, my niece's wedding. It's like, right, cool. So we all lie. That's fine. But there is an array of things you want to look,

busy, always busy on Raya, there's a lot of fake CEOs, so there's a lot of fake I'm really powerful, like, oh, this, glasses, company or whatever and then fun. You want to look like you're out with your friends and you know how to have a good time and as I looked at it more and more

I was just like, I can't do this, I can't do things like this. So you must have spoken about dating apps before only right in the beginning I just, we really haven't actually. Only right in the beginning, I was saying to Lil that Raya is my idea of hell and I won't go into it again I just think this idea of only dating within the pool

of where you think you live and exist I just don't think that's good for anyone in terms of growing as a human being Have you ever done them? Yes, I was sent to Raya last year Oh sorry, yeah go on, give me an experience Did you go on a date? No fucking way

There was this one sweet guy, oh bless him But I just didn't fancy him I'm like, what is the point? I do not fancy. Did you see him in real life? No. See, this is what blows my mind. I know I didn't fancy,

is people saying, I don't fancy a person. That's what makes me saddest. No, there was a lifeguard in Cornwall. He was fit, and I fancied him just from his pictures. Like that, it's... Yeah, but that to me is, that to me is wild. I have met people who in person are gorgeous and literally don't photograph well.

Well, don't you ever think, when you're feeling quite wonderful about oneself and you see a picture of yourself, you're like, that's not what I look like. actually pictures very rarely look like we actually are. Exactly. And also the whole thing about beauty that I felt I had to remind myself of is that like that first bit is that obviously you have to have some kind of attraction.

But I've gone into situations before and obviously I've not been single for a long time. But it's like I mean like I've been in situations where I wouldn't immediately think somebody's attractive. And then just through talking to them or through a shared value or shared interest, suddenly like parts of them. come more interesting. Like the way that someone carries themselves is so, can be so hot. Souls and energy start talking rather than just pictures. But also just like, honestly, like the most attractive quality of all time because it's the hardest thing to get is somebody who's comfortable with themselves.

Exactly. Now, people may have got a little bit, what's the right word? Like, foot loose and fancy free. Shallow. On the, shallow. Okay, that as well. on this idea of, you know, consistently swiping. So Bumble, which is the, it's got 29.2 million users.

God, she's done well, because that's Whitney. Wolf. That's it, Whitney Wolf, what name, who started Tinder with her boyfriend. She started Bumble in response to how she felt she was treated at Tinder. If you don't know, watch the Lily James Swiped Disney show that me and that. Our producer really enjoyed. Not a little bit more than me. But anyway, Bumble is what she makes on her own.

and it requires women to make the first move in heterosexual matches. But now it's changing its shit up and it's getting rid of the swipe and, oh, God, asking AI to get involved. What sense? Well, there's going to be a little AI matchmaker called B to go with Bumble, I suppose. So instead of being so quick to flick,

AI, blah, blah, will set up different matches and talk you through more why they think this person's good for you. It sounds like they just want you to spend. spend more time on the app, which is obviously the main goal. Yeah, it's just so, it's just really like, all of this could be solved

of just going outside. It's so crazy. I know. And let's talk about Field because you said the woman from Field followed it. Yes, she did, which is cool. Well, Field, if, uh, if someone hasn't, um,

isn't privy to Field, it's kind of where sexual desire is the getting off point. You can be very honest about what you like sexually, what you're looking for sexually. I have a lot of, I've actually never been on it. No, I have a lot of friends on it who,

really enjoying it. Obviously I've not been on it but I mean I've not even seen someone else's one. Oh I've seen a lot of it. Oh I've seen a lot of it. Oh my God. All I heard was that you can say you're into things like um what's the one that my mate said like wax wax play. It gets very niche. It's kind of taking away the shame of your particular desire. Can I say? But the thing is the thing that gets me about dating apps, right, is for me it makes the idea that a person is like disposable. That's what that's what plays my mind. Well, this is what bumble is. attacking darling this is what bumble's saying it's it's adhering too much to this idea that people are disposable but i'm not sure whether ai banging on about trevor in hull who's an electrician

and because i said i like electricians he's perfect for me i just don't think i want to engage with AI about something so personal there's the tv show about this written by breck goldstein actually oh and someone else yeah it was on amazon i can't remember what it was but it's like about it is about like AI finding your soulmate Oh The show is called soulmates He's very good Brett Goldstein

Isn't he? Didn't he like right Ted Lassar as well? Yeah I'd rather believe in magic Those who don't believe in magic Never find it I just feel like we're putting So much pressure

On something that is So wonderful Like love connection Like there's an artist I know called Buck Betty She did like one of those subway takes And she was just saying how She thinks everyone

overthinks love I think when it becomes the driving force of how you see yourself in the world whether you have it, whether you don't, whether you want it, whether you don't. Like, when it becomes that, then it becomes a different kind of obsession. You're not just trying to find someone to date

or you want to fall in love. You're looking for something to validate why you even are here, which is just not going to get anywhere good. You've got to love this life and this gift of it. And then that shit is that actually we're here to like spiritually and magically grow. And the love stuff is just,

It's actually just cherry on top stuff. The real delight is in growth. And sometimes you can't do that with other people. Oh, I'm not sure. I feel like you do need to grow with other people. Yeah, no, you can. But like I have a few friends. I don't want to drag anyone.

But I have a few friends that like cannot be single. Not even for like a day. You know, like the guy who wrote the prophet, Killil Gibran, he had what was called a passionate friendship. with a woman for 30 years in a time where marriage was this thing to do and he actually proposed to her

and she was like, nah, but she loved him. Yeah. She was like, nah, you're all right. Or as my auntie Deb says, just take a lover. Just take a lover. It's obviously saying. You know what?

That's a perfect way to end this. Take her lover, take him to the Chelsea Flower Show. Yeah. Introduce them to Monti Don, right? Live this life. Next week's Listen, bitches. cast. Oh, cast. Yeah, it's a great idea. Watch, I'm gassed. I'm sure. It'll be phenomenal. It will be fantastic. I'll see you on Monday. I'll see you on Monday. Okay, bye.

Thanks for listening to Miss Me. This is a Persefonica production for BBC Sounds. If you've been affected by anything raised in this episode, go to bbc.com.uk forward slash action line. Political language can seem archaic. It's like the light from one of those stars that actually died. Sometimes bamboozling. It's a theme park with a five-foot log flume from one thought to another. And very often, beyond words. I don't mean how to describe the language I use.

I'm Amanda Unucci. I'm all reset and turbocharged to stress, test to destruction, used and abused buzzwords and phrases from the world of politics. I come with a dazzling array of guest presenters and I'll be exploring the verbal tricks of the political trade, the intentions behind them and the effect they have on all of us. The new series of Strong Message Here with me, Amanda Unucci from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Science.