Miss Me? - Let’s Talk About Sex

Episode Date: February 6, 2025

Miquita Oliver and Jordan Stephens discuss Bonnie Blue, Lily Phillips and the idea of queuing for sex.This episode contains very strong language, adult themes and strong sexual references. If you have been affected by any of the issues raised, you can find support via the BBC Action Line: https://bbc.co.uk/actionline/ Credits: Producer: Flossie Barratt Technical Producer: Will Gibson Smith Production Coordinator: Hannah Bennett Executive Producers: Dino Sofos and Ellie Clifford Assistant Commissioner for BBC: Lorraine Okuefuna Commissioning Editor for BBC: Dylan Haskins Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Hi, Kush Jumbo here. My podcast Origins is where the biggest names in entertainment tell me the stories that made them who they are today. This week on Origins is KSI. I did boxing as a joke, if that makes sense. So, no, continue. Did you and Tommy Fury become friends? No, no.

I would be sweating if I was like sitting next to another woman. I didn't know how to talk to females. Listen to Origins with Kuss Jumbo wherever you get radio podcasts. This episode of Miss Me guest host returner. Seriously? Yeah, this has never happened before. That's so great. I'm actually buzzing about that. It really is.

Well, thank you. I think this is like a really big moment for all of us. Yeah. Well, you know, it's incredibly big. She used to feel obviously shout out Lil each and every time. Yes, Lily Z. But yeah, look, I'm here. I like winding you up from what else would I do.

Yeah, I know. Sasha called me and was like, oh, Jordan brought you out. And I was like, did he? I didn't think I was being brought out, was I? Oh, okay. I guess he did. A little bit. But yeah, it was a bit ruthless.

But it really means a lot because you're a busy person and I know you were doing a shoot today. Yeah. And for you to do that and then still chat to me later means a lot. Come on. But it was interesting because today, if I'm very honest, I did not want to be anywhere near a camera.

Really? Yeah, it's the second day of my period. I'm very honest, I did not want to be anywhere near a camera. Really? Yeah, it's the second day of my period. I'm in pain. Ooh. I've had this operation so that my periods are not as horrible. And every time I feel a bit of pain, I'm like, shit, it didn't work.

That operation didn't work. Oh no. And I'm still gonna be in pain forever. That's PTSD. Probably. Making you realize how much your mind is linked to your physical pain. And then I thought, don't talk about that with Jordan, about the fact that you don't want to be like on camera with a light and have makeup,

because you might not feel like this. And then you said to me, Makita, boys get self-conscious too. And I was like, why do I think? No, I think my first question was, Makita, should I wear my hat or not? Yeah. And I was like, someone sounds a little bit insecure today, just like me. Yeah, a little bit. I'm indecisive. That's one. That is true. I'm genuinely indecisive. But I have developed this thing at the moment where I... Now my locks are at this length. I kind of cut a little bit off last year, but they're also now in this backwards plat,

which is really easy to maintain. But it's the first time in my life that I've not had like height on the top of my head. Oh my god. This is my issue in life with my hair. Trying to find height. And I don't know what it is but I swear, that's like my key. I spend my life pulling up, up here. I don't know what that's about. What is that? Because I would never say that looking at you that you'd need high on top of your head. I'm constantly looking for it. But hair is a big deal and people talk about bad hair days.

They really do exist and sometimes it just makes you suddenly very aware of yourself and your looks. You know what it was when I did Miss Me with Simon last week, he loved it. We had a really good time, but he was like having to think about the way I looked and my hair and what I was going to wear and did it. It was quite a lot to take on and I thought, well, that's just our life. And I thought, no, it's not. He gave that side of it up. Yeah. And it's still quite a big part of your life. Hence the modeling shoot today for a very famous denim company. It wasn't a model. It was more interview based this one, but I have done some shoots recently,

but yeah, I don't know what it is. I guess 80% of my life I've had a little throw or even when my locks were longer, I'd wrap them. And so I'm just not used to my face shape. You know, you're going to get used to just face shapes like when the hair is down the side. So I never used to wear hats as much and you know, none of this kind of stigma of hats because some people are hiding their hair because they're,

you know, men especially are really worried about their hairlines. There's more pressure than ever for men to have good hairlines. And can we talk about baldness? Lily will not talk about it with me. And I have deep emotions about baldness and what men go through and how little space there is for them to talk about it and what it must feel like. I think just generally, it's just safe to say that issues of image, body dysmorphia, comparison, body image issues are obviously increasing for men just in the same way because of social media and the slights that people use in order to make people feel rubbish about themselves. Something of course women have had to be under receiving

and for a long time, but it really is a bigger issue for men than ever. But yeah, the hair is where I'm hyper focusing at the moment. Me too, it's ridiculous. Yeah. I am hyper focused on the way I look a lot of the time. And for a lot of the work I'm doing at the moment

that I feel really good in has nothing to do with the way I look. Yeah. And I think I just get, I get too close to that. Then I'm like, shit, I'd sort my hair out if I missed me. I know. It's a bizarre, it really is bizarre. That's kind of why I'm like, fuck my hat, because I think I like leaning into discomfort in places like this. But, you know, in my weaker moments, I might regret it.

I don't really know. When the clips start coming out. Yeah, do you know what I mean? It's a lot of clips. It doesn't ruin my day like it might have done in my mid-20s, but I'm always looking for what seems impossible, just purely. That's how our ego survive, you know. What always thinking that just one more improvement.

Just fear. Oh, right that just one more improvement. Just fear. Oh right, being afraid of things. Yeah, just fear is literally how our ego feeds on itself. Well, I was starting to look into that, not because I wanted to, but because in our chat about what we're gonna chat about, this story of Bonnie Blue came up. Although shock reveal from the production notes that that's not her

real name. Oh my god. Shut up. Bonnie Blue of all colours. Crazy. Oh my god Jordan I really didn't enjoy this bit of research today because also I was blissfully unaware of this even taking place and everyone that I work with, which to be fair, most of them in their 20s and early 30s were like, this has been everywhere. I had no idea what we're talking about. So I've heard it all at once in just like today. So it's been-

That's a lot. Yes, you tell me. Run us through what's happened. Why we're even talking about Bonnie Blue. I mean, I'm obviously aware of Bonnie Blue because herself and another OnlyFans porn star called Lily Phillips have been making noise on the basis that they are just having as much sex

as possible in as short a time as possible, which has rattled people for various reasons. Lily Phillips was actually part of a documentary in which she had this kind of crescendo moment where she cried having experienced sex with I think 100 men in a day. And that seemed to do the rounds as confirmation that she's whatever people think. And then with Bonnie Blue, she's probably got a little bit more vim, which is troubling people because, you know, she, she proudly talks about taking boys virginity, about pissing off parents,

stealing husbands. Like that's her vibe. She's just on smoke. Well, actually there's a nice guy making the film, right? And that's what, I guess this is what I managed to watch today. Cause you, I think you really do have to be signed up to some whole other situation to see what Bonnie Blue did. But the Lily thing, yes, there is this revelatory moment at the end where it's like, turns out it was too intense for her, this idea of sleeping with 100 men, lots of them strangers in the course of 12 hours or 24. But it's just distressing. Don't you think it's distressing that this is such a surprise to her that what she's been through might feel quite dramatic?

This is what I found weird. It's like she's surprised that it actually didn't really feel like I thought it would. And I think that's the detachment between actual sex and what is enjoyable about sex. The story is about Lily Phillips. That's of her, tell us how she felt. It's not like just having s*** with someone.

Yeah, yeah. Just one in one out, like it feels intense. Like more intense than you thought it might? Definitely. Sorry. Just take a minute. Yeah, one minute. And this is a distressing response from her in this situation that is set up like a junket, like an old school press junket.

Her PA comes down and is all giggly, like, it's going well upstairs, yeah, yeah, yeah, we've got a few strangers, a few more people coming through. And that's what I found so abnormal, was just this sort of like, this does feel like a junket. And if you go on Lily's Instagram, she looks like anyone else that would be classified as an influencer on Instagram. There's no pictures of her sort of explicitly doing being part of sexual escapades. She's literally like skiing in like fur coats.

Yeah, what I mean is only so much you can put on Instagram, Kate. No, but I mean, what I'm saying is the lines have been blurred between selling your body on Instagram and selling your body on Instagram. Both acts are to what game followers? Is this where we're at? I don't think it's make money. I think it's garner as much attention as possible.

I would argue that money's quite a strong motivation for Lilly Phillips. And for Bonnie Blue, I'd say based off of the stuff she says publicly, that attention is definitely more of or as much of a driving force for her. But this doesn't feel like an opportunity of being famous. This is like people traumatising themselves and not realising. Like even the men seemed completely fucked up by the experience. Yeah, I would agree with that.

It seemed that the men that they spoke to, the men that they managed to talk to after having sex with Lily were really shaken up. The whole atmosphere felt very upsetting and not sexy. Definitely not sexy. Definitely not sexy. Definitely not sexy. Can we just say that? This was not a sexy thing. In the Lily Phillips documentary, the camera man gags when he walks into the room. That really stayed with me. That's fucking mental.

And she comes out with her eyes all like red and... Yeah. It is quite something that that many men are willing to queue up to have like a fleeting moment with a young woman who they're subscribed to. That for me is such an expose of how like cripplingly low in value the penis currently is in society. Right, in society, yeah. Yeah, for them to be like, I have such little respect for my own sexual energy that I want to be in a queue of men who have next to no connection to somebody that they think is attractive. And Bonnie Blue is, I mean, I think maybe you did more research of Lily Phillips. I was looking at

Bonnie Blue because the difference between Bonnie and Lily, from what I can understand, is that Bonnie is making many statements that are pissing people off, predominantly that she actively goes to universities and has sex with boys who are just legal. And she calls it barely legal. You know, she goes, I'm going to go and have sex with a bunch of barely legals. That's my duty because no one else is teaching them about sex. That's what she says. She brags about having sex with the sons and their dads. She brags about having sex with a kid and his mum interrupting the session and trying to drag him out.

And also whenever she's talking to men, she is instantly available to them sexually. She likes, it seems that she gets a kick out of how easily, like, lead astray men are just by the promise of sex, of an orgasm. Like, she will literally, I literally watched an interview with her on a US news channel and she turned this report, I mean this guy interviewing her was such a creep because she was just like offering him out the whole way through the interview on US news and

just being like, well after this, you know, we can do whatever position you want kind of thing. And he didn't know what the fuck to say. But like men have been socialized into a society where that's never an option for a woman to just step up and go, do you want to have sex with me? Like wild. Like so much so that it's like, like our libido's we're so led by this. If we don't take this opportunity, we'll never have this opportunity again. When, when will I ever have this opportunity to have sex with a woman who's hot?

That's interesting. Cause the one guy they got outside of the lily evening. He was rattled. Yeah, rattled. And they're like, how do you feel? And he was like, I don't know, it just seemed like an opportunity, innit? Like it was happening. So I thought I'll just fucking do it. You're right. It does tap into that complete lack of self-worth and self-esteem that you would have as a man or boy. No, but look, but it is it ties into the same conversation about men's relationship with sex. My personal

belief is that there's something disjointed about the way in which we relate to ourselves in those formative years of our lives. We have a society, especially in England, that is incredibly prudish, has all these echoes of this sin-based religious kind of, I don't know, repressive model. But when you know, sex and sexuality is something that children need to understand in a healthy way, it shouldn't be something that we are ashamed of doing. Like we grow up and instantly are ashamed of masturbation, we're ashamed of touching ourselves, feeling turned on, like all the arousal because there's, I feel like there's this latent feeling of disgust. When actually, if we were able to understand what we like without there being any shame attached to it, I often think we won't end up in odd circles where we were running and jumping

backflipping at the opportunity to have like connectionless sex with... A two second tryst with a stranger in a queue. Yeah. This is so far removed from sex. That's how it feels. It just feels this is... We're not really talking about sex. We're talking about... I feel like we're talking about fucking loneliness. Like, this is how estranged I think people feel from each other and like how much they don't know how to fucking love each other. It's like, this isn't the way forward people.

It's got to be about power for Bonnie because there isn't anything else to gain from that other than the fact that, you know, men who arguably wield the most power in society just through their very identity can be turned into fucking mush if you offer them out. Like that is wild. Yeah. Do you know what I'm trying to say? It's the oldest trick in the book. And one other thing I really wanted to talk about,

this is the note I had. Go on, let's see your one note, let's hear it. When I was doing research on Bonnie Blue, I was trying to find an interview that was recent, right? And I'm telling you about this one on the US telly. And I've tried to maintain a position here where a lot of people will go to the concern around Bonnie, like, is she okay? Right, Lily, is she okay? That's interesting to me. I wonder if the genders

are reversed, if the concern would be, is this man okay? Is this boy okay? But when I was watching it, she said something in this interview that really stayed with me. And this is something I've wanted to talk about for a minute. And I think it was that she said, when they were asking her why she's doing what she's doing, she says, I'm good at my job, right? And I know I am because I have liquid evidence. That's what she said. Okay. No, but listen, but listen, this is something that I don't think is spoken about a lot with men and boys, right? around consent with boys is really difficult to get to because boys are able to get aroused and ejaculate even if they're not into it. Interesting. Yes, yes, yes. And this is one thing that is difficult to explain because there seems to be this

disconnection and I've experienced this where I felt I found myself in scenarios, sexual scenarios where I felt like I've almost been on this odd form of conditioned autopilot and I've come away from the experience feeling fucking awful but there would be no case for like a lack of consent because I've actually done it. Yes and you were you would have ejaculated and essentially you had good time. I remember distinctly like one of the saddest sexual experiences I had ever.

I remember the feet like finishing and that being like, I can't explain it. I remember thinking, wow, I could not believe that I was even able to engage in that. It's even more of a head fart because the physicality of sex is different. How? I just remember thinking, how, how? Why was anything even working? And it's even more complex than that. Like some men will get aroused when they cry. It's actually a thing. Seriously, this is the real thing.

The conversation is so much more extensive. Yeah, nuanced. Because if we've been told to do something, it's almost like a form of coercive control from youth. If we're told this is what you're supposed to do, and this was a point I made ages ago actually on some interview I did, if we have been conditioned to believe

that this is what we're after, sex, conquering, having sex with a woman or a person, then we aren't even in control. So many boys, for example, have stories of having their virginity taken at 13, 14 years old by older women and they don't even recognise that that's predatory. They'll be like, yeah. God, I've never really thought about that. Because everything can work. Do you know what I'm trying to say? No, no, absolutely. I've thought about it when you hear about women raping men.

And can you imagine being in the act of being raped and the physicalities of your body are still playing the game of having sex? Oh, it's right. It's actually by law, a man can't be raped by women. Right, because essentially his physical state was engaged and consented. They just don't recognise it. Jesus, I didn't know that. It's just a legal thing, yeah, you can't... A man can be raped by another man only.

Yes, yes. It is a big conversation because we don't know enough about the complex sexual worlds of men because no one fucking talks about it. It's all a big secret. Do you know what I think is the problem? Funnily enough, Instagram. No, not just in the way that you think, though, because I watch this brilliant show. I think I've mentioned it a lot of times,

and it's called The Art of Design Abstract, The Art of Design on Netflix. And it's a different designer each episode, but it's the people at the top of their game. it's this great man who designed Instagram's interface like the way it looks and the way we use it not just like what it is and he's a black guy called Ian and what really fucked everyone up not Instagram because remember Instagram is kind of about it was all easy nice was this other thing that this other creator came up with, which was Endless Scroll. Oh, I've read an interview with this person. That's, and he seems like a really nice guy. He doesn't, he didn't know what he was doing.

Sleepless nights apparently. What, he feels, he feels guilt? Yeah. Oh my God, can you imagine? It's like creating the atomic bomb or something. Ruined everyone's lives ruined everyone's lives and the reason i'm bringing it up is because i feel like this the stuff happening with bonnie and the stuff having with lily these young girls that we're talking about it's just like more more more extreme extreme excessive excessive as human beings we're not very good at stopping it turns out we're not

that's why we go on instagram black holes like we don't have willpower, we're terrible with it. But listen, we're creating the value. It's our responsibility. It's what I mean, it's my responsibility to try and remove that like these people are operating because there is value in what they're offering. There are men fucking queuing. I know. And boys queuing.

Where are the elders? Lads, fuck me. Where were the people of sex? I need to ask you this. Yeah. Do you think there are any men for which a hundred women would queue up for instantly to share 20 seconds with? No, dead ass. Yeah. I think Timothee Chalamet. I think people, he seems to be loved across the board, across the board. But see again, in a weird way, I don't think they want to have sex with him. I think they just want to like kiss him and have him tell them he

loves them or something. I know that's what I'd be going for. Harry Styles? Shit. Yeah, we could get a cue for Harry. Yeah. Okay. If this happened on the other way round, but okay, no offense, but what if it wasn't a massive star, just a handsome guy like Lily and Bonnie, just beautiful, lots of Instagram followers. Like these are very, very famous people. I think a lot of that would be tied into it. Like I said with Harry Styles. The talent, you think they're getting sex off of their talent. You need to find someone whose talent is sex. All right, we're going to take a break now because I genuinely can't talk about this anymore,

but I feel like we dissected it properly. We've spoken a lot about it. Get to a fucking break and let's talk about, I don't know, candles or something. There's rainbows on the other side. Definitely on the list is rainbows. We'll see you after the break. Fuck me.

Hi, Kush Jumbo here. My podcast Origins is where the biggest names in entertainment tell me the stories that made them who they are today. This week on Origins is KSI. I did boxing as a joke, if that makes sense. So- No, continue. Did you and Tommy Fury become friends? No. No. I would be sweating if I was sitting next to another woman. I didn't know how to talk to females. Listen to Origins with Kus Jumbo wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to Miss Me, guys. Did you miss me? Yeah, did you miss me? You're gonna miss me. I bet you miss me. They all work.

Yeah. It's a great title. Yeah, I'm happy to be back, Keats. What were you saying? Well, I wanted to talk about the job situation as two people who I imagine have never had an office job between us. I've been privy. I've been office adjacent enough through all the production companies that I've worked with to make the TV shows. No, but of anyone, you actually haven't even had a job outside of entertainment.

That's wild. Do not put it like that out of entertainment. That's not true. You actually have never, I've just deepened this. You were on T4 when you were like eight or whatever. No, no. I worked, I washed dishes at a place on Talbot Road. It was called Coins and then I was, I made coffees at 192.

Very cool. At what age? At three. 14. 14. Really? So you were illegally, you were getting that bread illegally. Always on the

grind. Let's go. No, because I wasn't having alcohol. Child labor. I was really, really bad at both jobs. I'm not good in hospitality, it turns out. Can't serve tea. Let me just like undermine bands. No, actually- Underline budding pop stars. No, this is important. Because what was interesting to me about this kind of idea of like,

what they say, people have to come back to the office, right? It's time. That's enough now. So the push is at the moment from, you know, some big businesses and corporations to bring employees back into the office. Oh, as in, yeah, like working from home. Yes, lockdown's over now. Everyone's had enough freedom. And of course, what the problem is, everyone's found all these new rhythms of working, right? That you're not privy to,

unless you're freelance and you have that privilege and opportunity to kind of design the way your working life looks. And you know, someone who's lived in Hackney for a long time, I remember there was only a few of us that could like play tennis at Tuesday at 11, you know what I mean? Or like have lunch at two at the Turkish. It's like freelance, okay. Now that is hackney, hackney is it? I would say quite a freelance society. Apart from all the bankers.

But for me, the idea that you can only work in one way, I think comes back to the idea that you can only learn in one way. So I feel like the people that want everyone back in the offices are probably the people that helped build the bloody establishment in the first place. You think it's a bad thing to go back into the office? Yeah, I think people should have freedom for how they want to create and work. Life's too short to sit in a fucking office.

I mean, I really like offices. I always wanted to be in the office. I like the idea of that structure. So I think a bit of both was working really nicely. Everyone had a bit of freedom and a bit of structure. Yeah. Well, I think I was informed that neither of us can comment on this on the basis that we have no real experience.

I think that was one of the notes. We didn't like to answer on that quite well. I mean- I don't think you guys should say anything. It's not fair. But didn't I dance around that quite well? I mean... I don't think you guys should say anything. It's not fair. Yeah, listen, I had a couple of jobs before getting a record deal. My last one was working in Coral's Greyhound Stadium in Brighton, flipping burgers.

Oh my god, what, the dogs? Yeah, man, the dogs. You worked at the dogs, right? I worked at the dogs. And before that I worked in Top Man. I did you! I didn't know! Yeah.

Now, when you look at the wayward careers that Jordan and I have had, it's important to look at the people who came before us and the way they live their lives. And my mom had many, many jobs. And actually, I think your mom and my mum had many many jobs and actually I think your mum and my mum are probably square, even Stevens on the amount of different things they've done as a job. Sure, perhaps. Do you want to hear some of my mum's jobs? Please. Backing singer, obviously, on and off for time. Standard, boom. Standard, very much so, for a black singer, like dark black, you're usually a backing singer

around like throughout. Like Louise Redknapp. Yeah. Well, no, because she was with Eternal, and they were all at the front and centre with her. That was kind of, I always thought that was very brave. Makita, I was joking, obviously. Yes, but I always thought-

I don't think Louise Redknapp is dark black. No, what I'm saying is- The joke was that people forget that she was in a fucking black trio. Yes, exactly. And I thought it was very brave of a tunnel in like 93 to be a group with three dark black girls and a proper like white, lovely, you know, suburban Louise nerding girl. That was like a whole moment. It was revolutionary. And I wonder, it was just a pure chance that Louise ended up with the career off the back. Anyway. Great. Anyway, right. So backing singer. Sure. Worked in the news agents down the road to get me a bike once. Worked as a receptionist for Virgin Records. Sold mini massagers at

the design fair for like months. And I had to go with her every weekend. Mini massages. She wasn't giving the massages. No, would you like a mini, would you like to try a mini massage? Would you like to try a mini massage? I mean, me, I don't know what a mini massage is.

I'm not sure. That's why we're falling back into Bonnie Blue territory there. So yeah, so, um, the haphazard nature of all these... Yeah, the grind. The grind. The grind. Shout out the 90s, bruv. What are we talking about? Ecstasy Britain, new labour, hope. People living their best lives. As long as they can afford some pills and a rave, they don't give a shit what they're doing.

I think that was it. I think our parents had a little few more worries than that. Like food on the table, et cetera. Well, benefit Britain, that was 90s too, shout out. The doll. Want to send an honourable mention to the doll. Big up the doll. We'll never forget you. Thanks for looking after us for so long. How did it make you view what working life looks like to come from like the kind of grind of I do a bit of everything? I mean, look, obviously, I just want to start this by shouting out my mum and dad, love them. Say their names. Emma and Herman.

That's right. specifically jobs and I guess I want to say like long sightedness, then I don't think they would argue with me saying that perhaps they serve as an anti-model for me and my ambition going forward. Just because like you say, they were two of the era where they were grinding, ducking, diving, job to job, trying to stay alive and respect to them. Two very creative individuals, but importantly, and this is, this is quite disheartening, both of them quite anti-establishment. Yes. Those of anyone who has read my book or heard me speak about my mom, I will make

it clear, this woman is only protest. She's like 85% protest. If there was nothing to fight, I genuinely think she would separate like them bits in Star Wars or Star Trek, you know, when they just disappear into the sky. That's what happened to my mum. If we had reached a utopia, my mum would just disappear. So I was born into protests. Oh Jordan, I love that. You're in it, born into protests. Oh Jordan, I love that. If you're in it, born into protests. I came out with a placard like this in the hospital. I was there going, fuck the system. I just instantly, not even screaming. But anyway, my point is, is that the way the world works is when you

oppose the way to be and the limited boxes we're being forced into, you get punished. That is the saddest thing about capitalism. It steps on the people who are struggling the most. And I've seen that firsthand. Like, you know, I joke about the doll, but that was our life. You know, I didn't, we were homeless for two years. I lived in, with Tina. I don't know if you remember Tina and Dylan, but I used to live in the spare room for a bit. My mom would cycle us to school and shit. And then actually in my teen years,

this is the other sad thing, my mom actually trained as a therapist. And the thing about my mom is, as you all know, she has a huge heart and genuinely could like, you know, some of the stuff she was doing, she was working with Childline. She was an appropriate adult at the custody center. She was really trying to keep people's heads above water, but it's

fucking emotionally exhausting and she's so sensitive and she really struggled. She really genuinely struggled and you know, then the irony is those roles aren't even financially rewarded that much. So that was a lot. And my dad, same thing, he was dubbed by Sound magazine as the first black punk. Stop! I didn't know they said that about Herman. That's amazing. Yeah, he used to be in a punk bank called Seagass 5 back in the day. So the painful reality is, and like I'm saying, you'll understand this because our parents are in this space of creation and there's no stability. There's no stability in that life. That's one of the...

And still for us now as freelancers, I might have a great year. No one will know I haven't spent any of the money. Why haven't I spent any of the money? Because I have no guarantee of how long that money's got to last me. It's one of these things until you start putting bricks in the wall and whatever else. That is something you learn as you get older. But my point is, how it works in the system is you have a job, you do what you're told, you don't break any rules, you pay your pension, you do that for 40, 50 years, and then you can just sit back and chill and you're rewarded with stability and a lack of fear. That's essentially how the system works, which is we need people to be engaging

with it in that way. But I also do think we need a slightly, you know, outliers. And unfortunately, when you are an outlier, you know, you're not rewarded with that stability. So for me, I am not somebody who likes rules. I don't like order. If something doesn't make sense to me, I'll question it. That's just how I am. And I feel like that's the role I have to play

because for whatever reason, through my lineage, that's where I'm at. I feel at. I feel like what I can give to people is that we'll be on a path and I'll just fucking go off the path into the bush for no reason, just to see if there's anything there. And if I come back, I'll be like, guys, there's something there. And if I don't, I'm fucked. And I've been fucked a few times. But ultimately, from looking at my mum and dad, I'm like, you know, love you to bits, but you know, I'm going to have to save some of this cash because guys, like, respectfully,

like. Respectfully. I love them all. These people that grew us. Thank you so much. We love you. That is the end of today's session. I really did feel like that was therapy today. Sorry for dragging everyone with us, but I needed that. I needed to just get a few things out today, Jay. Thank you. No worries. Okay, Jordan, I see you Monday for Listen Bitch, other theme is flatmates and oh my fucking God, I went through my whole list of flatmates. Oh my god. I cannot believe how many crazy fuckers

I've lived with and just the volume. Does that include your parents? No, I'm joking. Yeah. Well, I moved back in with them twice. So yeah, they're on the list. They weren't great flatmates. We work better as child and parent. And we'll be hearing some of your dirty flatmate stories and some of yours, audience. I cannot wait. See you Monday, Jordan. See you Monday. Bye. Bye. Time to spiral.

Thanks for listening to Miss Me with Lily Allen and Makita Oliver. This is a Persephoneca production for BBC Sounds. If you've been affected by anything raised in this episode, go to bbc.co.uk forward slash action line. World of Secrets is where untold stories are exposed. And in this new series, we investigate the dark side of the wellness industry. Following the story of a woman who joined a yoga school, only to uncover a world she never expected. I feel that I have no other choice.

The only thing I can do is to speak about this. Where the hope of spiritual breakthroughs leaves people vulnerable to exploitation. You just get sucked in so gradually and it's done so skillfully that you don't realize. World of Secrets, The Bad Guru. Listen first on BBC Sounds. Hi, Kush Jumbo here.

My podcast Origins is where the biggest names in entertainment tell me the stories that made them who they are today. This week on Origins is KSI. I did boxing as a joke, if that makes sense. So- No, continue. Did you and Tommy Fury become friends? No. No.

I would be sweating if I was like sitting next to another woman. I didn't know how to talk to females. Listen to Origins with Kuss Jumbo, wherever you get your podcasts.