Miss Me? - Listen Bitch! "Dear Elton, Sorry seems to be the most appropriate word..."

Episode Date: May 6, 2024

Lily Allen and Miquita Oliver answer your questions about influence. Who was the worst influence out of the two of them? Who were their fashion influences? Were they ever mean to impress other people?Next week, we want to hear your questions about PROPERTY. Please send us a voice note on WhatsApp: [phone]. Or, if you like, send us an email: [e-mail] episode contains very strong language and adult themes.Producer: Matt Thomas Technical Producer: Will Gibson Smith Production Coordinator: Hannah Bennett Executive Producers: Dino Sofos and Ellie Clifford Assistant Commissioner for BBC: Lorraine Okuefuna Commissioning Editor for BBC: Dylan HaskinsMiss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds.

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. on Rogers Internet. Visit rogers.com for details. We got you. Rogers. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This week's episode of Miss Me contains very strong language. It starts there and then it goes straight into adult themes. Very, very adult themes.

Please can you listen to Bitches for Listen, Bitch. Anyone else want to cry? I do listen bitch that's such a beautiful way to start listen bitch I need to do a shout out to someone called Michelle

this is Michelle Beasley I have to say I get so many this is you as well on the internet on Instagram you get nice messages I know you say none of get so many. This is you as well. On the internet, on Instagram, you get nice messages. I know you say none of our friends text you. They all text me. So they, like, miss me.

But Michelle sent me a message on Instagram. And she says that her and her mate, everything we talk about, they end up bringing up, like, the subjects they then talk about as a subject on their morning walks. This morning we covered virginity, patriarchy, school, and of course the podcast. We now answer the phone by greeting each other with Listen Bitch. Isn't that so sweet?

So sweet. Well, I can't wait till it's Christmas. I'm going to do like a silent night. Listen Bitch Christmas number one. Listen bitch. Holy bitch. Okay, we'll save that. That's just a tester, a taster.

Wait till December and you'll get the whole of that track. Should we take it to the floor? What's the subject? Lily Allen, what are we talking about today with the world? Today, ladies and gentlemen, and anything and everything in between, we are talking about influence. I've been a little confused this week about what that really means. So I'm very much going to do what you said and just, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to listen. I'm going to listen. That's right. First question. Hi, Lily and Makeda. My name's Sabine. I'm from Melbourne, Australia, and I'm a huge fan of your podcast. My question on the topic of influence is

who was your main celebrity influence growing up and who is it now? I'm curious to know if it's changed. For me, for example, Lily, you were a huge influence on my life growing up. I always found you so unafraid and you helped a little 13-year-old girl be unafraid, as was evident by the fact that I used to perform Not Fair in front of my parents multiple times. And you're still a big influence on my life now, as is evident by the fact that I'm listening to your podcast and loving it. Anyway, love your work. Can't wait to hear your episode.

Bye. Do you know what? It's very special in life that you don't even know this influence you may have had on someone to the point where they're singing your song in the kitchen to their parents. You don't even know that's happening. Like, you're right, this might be quite good, this influence thing. Interesting.

Thank you, darling, for that question. I just realized who my main influence as a kid was. Tatiana Ali. Ali. Tatiana Ali, who played the youngest in Fresh Prince of Bel-Air. What was she called? Okay. She was like the daughter. She was great. What was her name? Anyway, they're a rich family, obviously. And then she becomes a pop star.

And then she became a pop star in real life, which I thought was very good. Crossed over. Life imitating art. It was very life imitating art when Tatiana put out, boy, you knock me out. Boy, you knock me out. Boy, you knock me out. What a tune. Yeah, huge influence on me when I was a child. I don't really know who yours would have been.

Can't remember you, Mench. To be honest, I didn't really sort of pedestal people and look up to people in that way. Now, it's slightly different. I don't... This is going to be funny. I don't know if I necessarily, well, I was influenced by this person recently. I saw an Instagram video, a reel of an old

interview with Taylor Swift, where she was being interviewed about how she deals with trolls and negative attention from the press. And she was quite succinct. And she said, look, you know, my life is great. I'm not going to complain about it. People are always going to have something negative to say. And that's their prerogative. And I'm not going to sit here and complain about how people twist my words. You know, that's just something that comes with the job. And the way that I deal with it is just to look at it and just to laugh at it and I've really struggled with this over the years and I saw that probably you know about three or four months ago and I thought you know what I'm going to try and put this into practice and it's really really helped so Taylor Swift has influenced me quite recently yeah you go. Have you actually done that? Have you actually chosen to laugh at negativity that comes your way?

Yes. I mean, not like out loud, like ha ha ha. But, you know, I sort of see things and I just think, oh, you know, I've got no power. I think it's funny because you sometimes read those things. And I think like over the past 15, 20 years, I've read those things and I've thought, oh, if only people really knew my side of it and what I meant by that. And I think it's living in a fantasy world to think that it would stop or that I would be able to change people's minds. And I think, you know, whatever your opinion is, it's none of my business.

Well, someone said something to me the other day. God, who was it? I can't remember. One of our mates and he was like, like makita you can't make everyone love you not everyone will like you and i was like how could you say something so cruel to me and he's like no you have to make peace with that and that's not about being famous or not that's just that's life not everyone's gonna like you imagine if you spent this small time we have on earth desperately trying to make that happen people have got their own shit going on that you can't heal for sure and i have definitely spent quite a large chunk of my life worrying about that so uh i am now in a place where i'm like don't care thank you that's very

very sweet that you'd consider and take the time out to say something so horrible but that's more about you than it is about me see and now we are laughing I would love to hear another question hello Lily Makita I'm loving the podcast and this is Chrissy from Dorset I am currently in my living room looking out the window to the Clipper Tea Factory that I live opposite as you said you wanted some information of where people are living on the subject of influence we all had a bad influence growing up. My question for you both is, what was your bad influence? And looking back, like myself, are you glad that that influence was in your life? And did you learn anything from it?

Love you. Bye. Bye. We're looking at them. we're looking right at them i know no lie yeah each other you were a worse influence on me than i was on you i knew you were gonna i knew you were gonna fucking say that it's completely equal no it's not it's actually not it's not between the ages of 13 to 15. I'll give you that. Quite important time, my little young, nimble mind to have been influenced. Thinking of a particular evening in your mum's house now.

Yeah, that was me. That was me. But yes, to answer the question fully, I am very happy that my bad influence stuck around to still be in my life and continue to teach me shit. I think that's, I think it's quite a big part of our relationship that we weren't always great for each other. That's not what this has always been about. Like all true relationships, I think that.

Go the distance. Go the distance. there's there's mess in the back um but yeah my answer is Lily my answer is Makita there you go but I think there must have been others that were a bad influence on me I think um the bigger boys no I remember when I was at um when I was at boarding school uh I was friends with like I got there in uh block three and the boys in the upper sixth year were like my friends I'd met them on holiday in the summer and so I'd made friends with them more when I got to the school and they got me into like smoking and drinking on a Wednesday afternoon. And yeah, the big boys, the bigger boys.

I don't have anything like that. I was very much focused on smoking and drinking all on my own. I didn't need anyone to tell me that. I was like, I very much want to be smoking and drinking. I'm not celebrating it, but I was just very focused on it. I remember when I sat around for like two days with a packet of tobacco and some small bristle and I was like, I'm going to learn how to make roll ups. I just thought it was the most important thing in the world.

And I did. I really did. I think I remember when you taught me how to make roll ups. No, no, no. I think we answered that question. Let's have another question. Thank you for that one. I really like that one.

Hi, Lili and Makita. This is Anna. I'm calling from Barcelona. What are your thoughts on the influence of money in a serious relationship or a marriage? Do you believe that a person with more money somehow holds greater influence, greater power? And how has this played out in your personal life?

That's it. Thanks a lot and keep up the great work. Bye. No, you guys keep up the great work. Big up to the Listen Bitch audience. The Barcelona sector. Yeah. Um.

Yes, I have a few stories if you don't ask that okay um I have always made more money than my boyfriends because I've always been lucky enough to make money um and sometimes quite a lot um and I've always been bullied and uh bullied for it and also what's the word used exploited exploited for it yeah but i've allowed both those things to happen and it will never happen again but yeah that's happened a lot in my life it's so dull and tiresome and exhausting and unfair it really makes takes a lot of the joy of your success away when the man in your life just can't bear it so must bully you and belittle you while spending all your cash it's really it's a really shit situation that goes around in circles but but again i was complicit and i and that shit only will stop if you say no. Enough of this. Wow.

Do you know what I'm talking about? It's interesting. I don't know. It's really complicated between me and David with the money thing. You know, I've always been the breadwinner in my relationships until this one, you know. been the breadwinner in my relationships until this one you know and I you know David works incredibly hard and gets paid lots of money and um but you know we share the responsibility of parenting my children so there's like I it's it's tough is it not just straight down the line we share everything? Yeah, it is. But it's not really about that. It's more about because he earns all of the money,

I could earn all of the money, but because he earns all of the money, it's like this sort of not unspoken because we do talk about it, that I will take a backseat in my career and stay here and look after the kids right okay if he wasn't making money then I would I guess I'd have to like there'd be a bit more of a sense of urgency in terms of like me having to really release music and tour it and um and put

the roof over our heads but that just doesn't exist now. But that was the beginning of you being an actor, right? Because you had the space and capacity and financial stability to do that because, I mean, literally you're doing theatre. It's not exactly like, that's not about money in any way. It is complicated and it does come up sometimes because, you know, like I'm going to do something, a project next year,

which is actually going to be announced in the next couple of days. And it's not not it doesn't start for a whole other year but um you know there's like an issue with it because it's like well who's going to look after the kids it's actually falls in the summer holidays but I don't know I feel there's like a part of me that's like that feels guilty about having to take work well about wanting to take work because I don't need to so you know my role has become a bit more has become like more domestic and I don't I love it and I love I love it I love being here for my kids I love cooking dinner every night i love doing that homework with them and i love having a you know of a relation such a close relationship with my children but i of course i miss like being front and center in terms of um you know being the important one in our family

that brings in the money and that you know is prioritized in that way fucking annoying thank you for saying you're being honest about that last bit. We'll have another question for Listen Bitch because these are just... Sorry, that was so uneloquent. I don't know how to... Very much got your point across and I understood it completely.

I think everyone was with me. Next question. Hey, Lily. Hey, Makita. My name's Harriett. I'm from South East London. I used to live in Norfolk. My question for

you guys is who influenced you in terms of your fashion sense growing up? The pair of you were both a massive influence on me. So I used to rock the frilly dresses with the trainers, Lily. And I know you're not too keen on it, Makita, but I was obsessed with a weave. I could never afford hair extensions, but I remember saving up all my pocket money to buy hair extensions for a weave because I'm mixed race. And in Norfolk, there were no hair extension shops. So they cost quite a lot of money to buy back in the day. So yes, I'm wondering who influenced you in terms of fashion? Gosh, it's so funny. Makita, when we were growing up, Makita used to like have like mood boards in her room. Like she would take, she would tear pictures of like Kate Moss and Sienna Miller out of magazines and put them up on her wall. And I was never really like that.

I suppose if I had one person that I looked up to fashion wise, it was our mutual friend Jess Draper. I used to think that she always looked really great and really chic. Didn't Jess sort of invent quiet luxury 25 years ago when she was about 20? No, but she may have invented the dress and trainers look. The one that you then turned into such an iconic movement. I mean, I didn't, it wasn't like I came out of the gates going, I've invented this look. Other people attributed that to me, but I would think that she was somewhat,

she was a bit older than me and she was someone that I really looked up to, still do look up to. And her fashion credentials have never disappointed. So I think that I would say her, she's my mate. I'm not really anyone like famous, I don't think. Maybe I quite like Courtney Love and what she used to wear. But, yeah, I was never really, like, mainstream in that way in terms of...

Do you know what? I think you and our cousin Phoebe were just a bit more, slightly more, it's weird, like, more individual than me. Like, I quite... I did sort of follow her, or keep an attention on things. Like I was like very into fashion and read a lot of fashion magazines. But I was thinking about the other day, I sort of sat down. I was like, oh, yeah, Vogue, Harper's Bazaar, cup of tea.

Like this is dream evening for me. And I thought it still does like fire me up and turn me on I do love a magazine and I still do and now I just take pictures on my phone I have still got those mood boards but they're just on my phone on my we collect board so I don't know it's something that hasn't left me I still do that yeah I really found in my youth like you know we've talked a little bit on this show already about how um it's difficult to put us into like a um a class bracket because our upbringings change right like you know I grew up in a council flat for the first four years of my life and then I lived in a terraced house and then moved to a really posh house when my mum got together with Harry. And then when I was supporting myself, I lived in a little one bedroom flat off Labrador Grove. Like

it's always changed for me. And I feel like clothes was a way for me to express that. And so I was always using like bits of high fashion, bits of low fashion. And it was a way of communicating that like, don't try and put me in a box because I come from all over the shop and I've been on a journey. And so I will wear something, you know, like a designer dress, but I'm going to put it on with trainers and I'm going to wear like cheaper earrings from Argos. And, and that's who I am. I'm communicating who I am through my clothes. Interesting. I think mine was terrified of the reality of the poverty of my mother, surrounded by all these people with money. So I just always wanted to look clean and sharp and slick. You wouldn't know it looking at me. I will not say trends because that's not what I'm talking about, but certain parts of fashion.

Having a genuine interest in them, brands, who was the designer at brands, what kind of clothes were they making? I used to love runway shows and looking at them in magazines, but also a way of taking me away from something that I thought was embarrassing and, you know, something I wanted to hide about myself. God, clothes are important. What about now? Is there anyone you like the way they dress? I really like the way Julia Sardjian,

Jamor dresses, that's our friend. Yeah, I mean, she, if I, yeah, she looks amazing. I'd say probably her, to be honest. There's not really anyone else. Sometimes, some of the clothes, I see these young people walking around and I'm like, what the fuck? Look insane.

It's like oversized oversized like blazers and like just you know yeah it's all weird weird but not for me you know I'm five foot two like that oversized stuff really does not work for somebody with my body shape no thank you for that question can we have another question for listen bitch hi Lily and Makita you queens love you I am calling from Rumford and essex and my name is alfie why did i say in that order i don't know uh i was always influenced by like the pressure to make my friends like me growing up and as a result sometimes i would be a dickhead to people to try and impress my friends i wondered if you ever did anything mean to people growing up

or if anyone was ever mean to you because they were trying to impress their friends. This is all on me, Alfie from Romford. This is all on me. Yes, I did this to Lily quite a lot when we were kids and my cousin Phoebe. It actually hurts my heart to say. This is what I'm saying as a continuation from before.

Alfie, youie with me right that kind of herd mentality I followed it more than you Lil and and Phoebe and that actually started with clothes or music like you know when we like grunge I was like we can now only listen to grunge we are grunge people and Phoebe was like I really like Firestarter by Prodigy I was like no Phoebe no we can't listen to any music that's not grunge and I was fucking serious because it was like this is my identity and this is my these are my new people and this is what makes up who I am um and that then unfortunately translated when we started going out to to parties and stuff into me feeling quite um like embarrassed about lily and phoebe because i thought they maybe made me made us seem younger or something so i would get a i sort of

had another friend and i decided that we were going to be the people that went out together this is jennifer and this was going to be my new idea so things like this and i was i was going to be my new identity. So things like this, and I was, I was cruel to Phoebe and Lily and, and, um, would leave them out of things and, uh, and try and kind of, uh, separate myself from you both. And then about a year later, I realized that they were cooler than me. And I kind of had to ask them to let me back in to their love. Um, you know, we were children, this is all, you know, at the time seems very deep but it but that is really what happened and and um I think I did that a lot to my cousin Phoebe actually when I was really young I was so scared of um not fitting in with the things that I thought were right that I was trying to get rid of things that were the most about me as you could possibly get my cousin who's

basically my sister and my person lily so you know that right you know that yeah i don't think you've ever said it out loud i haven't it's nice to hear it i'm sorry yeah it's all right i mean like this is why you say i was a bully as a kid and it wasn't this is what it wasn't about me bullying you it was about my fear of what I thought I needed in my identity and things like that you know

I'm sorry if I was cruel I really am oh it's okay don't worry about it it's fine just left some long term scars just left

three scars for life did I do did I lash out and was I mean yes I was but i don't really think that that was because i was trying to influence anyone in fact i think i was trying to um control my own um environment i was i have have always been and am still terrified of abandonment. Um, and so sometimes I would be mean to people before they could be mean to me. Um, so I was controlling, uh, the relationship, especially people that I, uh, really loved. Like I could be the most mean to the people that I cared the most about. And I think it was like about trying to protect myself from being abandoned by them, essentially.

So I don't know if that relates to influence, but that was why I was mean to people. That's your story? Yeah. That's interesting. So that's me too. I was being mean to the people I love the most, but for just a different reason. We're all mean for different reasons. Alfie from Romford.

Wow, thanks. Lily's right. I've never said that to her before and i didn't know i needed to bloody hell bloody hell listen bitch bloody hell you crazy thing you we'll be back with some more questions about influence after this break. Save up to $20 per month on Rogers Internet. Visit rogers.com for details. We got you. Rogers. Welcome back. Let's have another question about influence, shall we? Hi, both. My name's Damon.

I'm from Manchester, but absolutely loving the podcast. Every week, me and my partner are obsessed. On the topic of influence, I very much am an activist for the queer community and LGBTQI+. I'm wondering what influences, or who has influenced either of you uh from the queer community either now or growing up um yeah thanks very much thank you i love the idea of you and your partner uh listening to miss me together every week that makes me really happy thank you i have an answer not many people know this but when um i was a kid a kid, we had a really big... No, no one knows this. Why would they? We had a really big bill. I think it was a gas bill or something.

Anyway, it fucked us up to a bad place and put us in bad debt. And my mum decided the only way to get us out of this debt was for us to do a play in Islington at the King's Head Theatre. It was quite a deep play. It was called Angels, Punks and Raging Queens. Did you ever come see it? I don't think I did. Okay, Angels, Punks and Raging Queens. It's a brilliant play.

I can't remember who wrote it. And it's about HIV and the AIDS crisis. And it's about basically, and I was nine and my mom was probably twin 30, yeah. And we had to do it every night. No, I had to do it every other night because of kids, you you know, there's only a certain amount of time you can work. But it's still every other night doing a play was quite a lot when I was nine after school. And the premise was we were all in the sort of waiting room of hell or heaven.

And we had to come on stage and tell the story of how we had HIV and AIDS in our life. And mine was, I was born from a crackhead mother and an absent father. And I was born with it. And I think I'm, and I die at like nine with it. Like it's deep. It's quite a lot to take on. But anyway, Lily Savage was in this play with me.

And also a lot of actors that I see in a lot of things now. Like, oh God, you're in Angels, Punks and Raging Queens with me. And this, Paul O'Grady, of course, the character that Paul O'Grady played for years and years and years. I just wanted to be clear. When I was a kid, I saw Paul as Lily and I always called her she and then Paul he.

So that's just how it made sense to me and she was so nurturing to me and so amazing and would look after me and she's the first person that ever did a full face of makeup on me actually and it was it was like, she was a huge life changing person. And it was very sad when he passed away. Really broke my mum's heart, actually. Oh, obviously, Paul O'Grady's character, Lily Savage, was a drag queen and sort of loud mouthed and said what she meant. Very honest and started in the clubs.

I saw a documentary about Paul recently, and she started in the bars of South London, Vauxhall Tavern and stuff, and then suddenly became mainstream in primetime and was the beginning of Paul O'Grady's huge career. So I'm sure people remember Lily Savage. Of course. That was my nickname in school for a while. Was it actually?

Yeah. Oi, Lily Savage. Oh, my God. See, look? Yeah. Oi, Lily Savage. Oh my God. Of course, see, look, there you go, talking about influence. What, I don't know if people know this about me, but my, I used to be managed by a management company that was owned by Elton John and David Furnish. What, in the early days? In the second album, from the second album onwards.

Yes. And then, and I loved being managed by them and I'd love every year Elton would put on a Christmas party and I'd always sit next to him and he'd make me feel really special and he would call me like once every couple of weeks to check in and say hi and make sure that I was okay. And there were some times in that period where I wasn't okay.

And I remember he like sent me to his house in the south of France to like go and relax and dry out a little bit because I was, you know, perhaps not living very healthily at the time. Very Elton. I'd expect this from Elton. Like, come, come to the south of France. Let me look after you. I love Elton. Anyway, come, come to the south of France. Let me look after you. I love Elton. Anyway, we parted ways just after my third album, Sheezus, came out. And I was very sad about it.

And I wrote this long letter to Elton to say how sad I was about the situation and, um, and that I was particularly sad because he didn't call me anymore and, um, didn't send me, you know, I didn't get my bi-monthly phone call from Elton checking in and there was a big Elton shaped, shaped hole in my life. And, um, yeah. And, and over the next few years, as my life began to sort of spiral out of control, uh, I held much resentment, um, for the fact that I'd made myself very vulnerable in this letter and told him all about my sobriety and, you know, he's a sober person, Elton. So he, um, I thought that he, you know, would have responded to this

letter. And I was quite cross with him for a few years for not having responded to this letter because I've been very, very sort of vulnerable and open. And I thought it was mean of him, actually. And then when I moved here to America, I was unpacking and I found the letter. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I was unpacking and I found the letter. I sent it. Oh my God. Oh my God. So I'd been harboring all this Elton resentment. I did feel like he wouldn't, Elton wouldn't do that.

No, it felt so out of character, which is why I was so upset. I was like, I told him, I poured my heart out. I told him that I wanted to get clean. Anyway Elton if you're listening which you're probably not I love you and I no longer harbor that resentment towards you so you will forever be the biggest queer icon of my life and I really yeah he was he was great and i spent many uh many a good afternoon and phone call with elton john what a story so you i do have them i do just pull them out of the archives don't i every time you go oh god don't bother i have no memory and i'm like where the fuck did that come from no because actually on that note I sat next to David Furnish at dinner

recently and I and I told him about the letter and he just looked at me like I was completely insane because I am quite frankly I was like yeah you know really harbored this resentment was this before you'd found the letter that you hadn't sent no it was just when I found the letter I was like I might have been a bit frosty with you guys for the past few years. I'm really sorry about that. It's just that I thought I'd sent you this letter and it turns out I hadn't sent the letter at all. And he was like, do you want to send the letter?

And I was like, no, no, it's okay. Poor David Furnish. Just miss me here being insane. I'm okay. Thank you. I just had to get some things off my chest, David. Okay, you can go now. Enjoy your asparagus.

Okay, see you later. Enjoy the lunch. I'll see you later. Say hi to Elton for me. Everything's fine. It'd be quite nice to have Elton back in your life, wouldn't it? That'd be nice. I feel like he could then throw you a really great 40th birthday party.

Are we there yet? Probably not. Hi, Elton. I know it's been a while. I am turning 40 next year. Just wondering if you'd like to throw me my birthday party. Because I no longer hate you for the better I thought I said.

Anyway. I'd just like to say I'm very grateful for everything that Elton has, all the generosity that he's ever shown me. Do you know what? When George, my baby, died before Ethel was born, Elton sent me three fully blooming cherry blossom trees to plant in my garden. Like, you know, most people maybe might send you a bunch of flowers. to plant in my garden.

Like, you know, most people maybe might send you a bunch of flowers. A truck with three full cherry blossom trees arrived at my house in Gloucestershire. They're still there. I check on Google Images sometimes. Oh yes, of course, because you would have planted, that's why trees are so good,

you plant them and they're still there. I planted them and I planted George's ashes underneath the tree in a box. That's beautiful, Nils. Influence. Influence influence quite um we've been sent an anonymous text which is while i'm very grateful for the text i'm kind of not because we've been quite specific in asking people to send voice notes and to identify themselves by name

and preferably uh by geographical location as well yeah Yeah, but come on, like they're trying their best. Everyone's trying their best. Okay. Here's the question. Why do you think young people these days feel the need to be influenced? Do you think there is a gap in parenting? Are young people turning to their influences for guidance? And do you think there is a place for influencers in society?

When I was younger, my extended family and friends were my influencers. Is it the same thing, but due to the replacement of social lives with social media, in young people's lives, influencers have taken over this role? Oh, right. I just realized what we're talking about. Influencers. Yes. Yes.

That dirty little word hasn't come into this conversation yet. No, it's interesting. Well, it's interesting that we're talking about influence and this role in the world seems to be one of the most powerful. For sure. That book that I read, you know, a few weeks ago that I told you about, The Anxious Generation, he talks a little bit about

influencers in it I think you've told me every week about this book you really do live and die by this book I don't live and die by it but I just think it it hit home for me I felt like it was well researched and I believed it he talks about influencers and and prestige and the prestige that comes with having um a large following and that you know the role models now that exist for young people and especially for girls are it's not really about anything that they stand for so there is no message except for there is power in having numbers but isn't that a bit like an empty cardboard box with a bow on it yes I think it is I think it is I mean I think that when we were young we had artists that we looked up to you know whether it was, you know, Fiona Apple or Alanis Morissette or, you know, those people helped us to come to terms with some of the things that we were feeling. We could hear their feelings

and their emotions. And it was comforting to know that some bigger people, some grownups in the world were feeling these complicated things that we were feeling. They were able to name our feelings for us. Whereas now I don't think that, you know, when we're talking about influencers, I'm talking about a specific type of influencer without having to name any names because I don't want to end up on the Daily Mail sidebar of shame.

But as attacking or slamming this person or these people. So I, yeah, I think it's a bit sad that the message is get as many people to follow you. And that will equate to money and power and materialistic things, really. It's got nothing to do with self-discovery. It's to do with how you can have the biggest impact on the world by not really standing for anything. And I think that is sad. Yeah, I think that's sad. Yes, but also it's a bit the emperor's new clothes.

As you say, get as many followers as possible. Look at me, look at me, look at me. It's like, but for what reason? I don't understand. It's almost like the power comes from the followers and the followers come from what? Saying that you have the power to get, it's like a weird kind of circle that hits itself.

Yeah, because also a lot of those people, how they sort of kickstarted it was by buying themselves followers. So people are attracted by the number. They're like, who am I? Who am I? Who am I? This person's really popular.

I'm gonna base myself on this person and that person only has that number next to them because they've bought a whole load of followers and of course then that that it becomes more organic after that initial investment into the fake followers like it has a real world consequence because your power is believed because it looked because then you start to look like you're powerful. Yes. Smoke and mirrors. This is what I mean. Sorry, this is, let me just clarify why I said Emperor's New Clothes.

Because the Emperor's New Clothes is a very old fable, I suppose. And the emperor is very vain and awful. And he gets given like by a sorcerer, like a cape. And they say, this cape is the most beautiful cape you'll ever wear. It will make you so powerful. And everyone wants to love you and be near you. Followers, followers, followers. Everyone sees that the looms are empty. The looms are like the outfit he's wearing, but pretends otherwise to avoid being thought a fool. Exactly. So some influence are going, I'm powerful. I'm powerful. And you're like, no, you're not. So everyone goes, no, no, no, she is, she is.

You don't want to be the one that doesn't think she is powerful. Of course she's powerful. She's telling us she is. Look at these numbers. Finally, the weavers report that the Empress suit is finished. Okay, it doesn't matter about that rest of it. Thanks, though. The point's been made.

It only took seven minutes. The point's been made. Weaving in an old fable and social media and influences i knew i could do it i knew i could get there well i will just refer to my um seminal hit the fear which relates to this um this particular question i actually can't remember the words of it now i won't like to uh life's about film stars and less about mothers it's all about fast cars and cussing each other so you know that and that song was about the you know social media in its infancy and what I meant by that was that yes you know

people are looking to film stars to um guide them uh as opposed to their mothers and their family members, which is what our question was about. God, that doesn't even seem like a big problem now. Imagine just liking Julianne Moore and Hilary Swank. I was ahead of my time. I know what you're thinking. She's a prophet, quite frankly. I know.

Well, you know. I've still got a lot to say. I've still got a lot to say. I've still got a lot to say. Still got a lot of observations to make. Do we name Listen Bitch episodes? Can we call it She's a Profit? I quite like that. Also, what I was going to say is,

now it seems so harmless to follow, like to be influenced by film stars. Like I'd love to be influenced by Julia Roberts and Nicole Kidman and Halle Berry. Like what? That's fine. They have a message and they're hardworking women. Do you know what I mean? How unhealthy could that be? I agree. I agree with you. Do you understand? Okay. That's why I wrote a song about it 15 years ago. Yes, I do understand. I told you 15 years ago through my hit song, The Fear.

I've had a few other hits. Just will put that out there. One of my hit songs. One of my three hit songs. Anyway, that's not what Listen Bitch is about. When our hits just fall over Lily, we're here to exchange ideas. And that we did what Listen Bitch is about. We're not here to just fawn over Lily. We're here to exchange ideas. And that we did today.

That we did. Thank you, because I wasn't sure what we were going to talk about. I didn't know where it was going to go. And I'm quite pleased. I think that was a nice episode. Next week's theme. It's the statelessness of Shamima Begum, isn't it? No, it's not.

Next week's Listen Bitch theme is... Property! Not a cup of proper tea. Bricks and mortar property. You know, because I really want to hear about, like, old flats people lived in. Because I've lived in, truly, truly, I think 18 different flats.

Jesus Christ. I have moved a lot. Oh my God. And I finally live somewhere I really love. I've loved all of my flats, but I think like the clothes in your wardrobe, thinking about where you've lived really reminds you of like the history of your life. And Lily touched a little bit on it today, just by accident you did. So I feel like, oh, the seed was sown. So we're going to talk about property. Also, I still don't own my house and I'm 40 years old. Should I be ashamed? Do you know what I mean? All these rules and all these decisions.

There's a lot in the world of property. So next week's theme is property. And also we will be making proper cups of tea. Oh. Oh. Well, should we bring a proper cup of tea to the property episode or maybe it's what makes a proper tea is it about dinner what makes a property oh yeah i would like you know what one listen bitch should we just do dinner i love dinner but for now we're doing property I'll see you next week bitch bye

bye bye darling I hope you enjoyed listen bitch thanks for listening to Miss Me with Lily Allen and Makita Oliver

this is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds. Brown girls do it too. You know, for most brown people, sex chat is off the cards. Not us. We love talking about it. From online dating to

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