Miss Me? - Listen Bitch! Do You Even Rate Me?!

Episode Date: January 27, 2025

Miquita Oliver and Jordan Stephens answer your questions about cheating.Next week, we want to hear your questions about SPIRITUALITY. Please send us a voice note on WhatsApp: [phone]. Or, if you like, send us an email: [e-mail] episode contains very strong language and adult themes. Credits: Producer: Flossie Barratt Technical Producer: Will Gibson Smith Production Coordinator: Hannah Bennett Executive Producers: Dino Sofos and Ellie Clifford Assistant Commissioner for BBC: Lorraine Okuefuna Commissioning Editor for BBC: Dylan Haskins Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Hi, Kush Jumbo here. My podcast Origins is where the biggest names in entertainment tell me the stories that made them who they are today. This week on Origins is KSI. I did boxing as a joke, if that makes sense. So, no, continue. Did you and Tommy Fury become friends?

No, no, I would be sweating if I was like sitting next to another woman. I didn't know how to talk to females. Listen to Origins with Kuss Jumbo wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. This episode of Miss Me contains very strong language and adult themes but get over yourselves and just handle it. Hello and welcome to Listen Bitch. Hello everyone, welcome world. Welcome, do you want to hear some of the places where people do questions from?

I'm going to say this now. I've heard, I've heard, it's impressive. Thank you Jordan. Jordan is chatting shit with me today on Listen Bitch. The theme is cheating. Now I said to Jordan, it doesn't have to be romantic. It can be like cheating on a test. And he was like, I guarantee you,

every question will be about being cheated on or if you cheat on someone. So who knows? Let's, shall we open Pandora's box? I just don't think anyone's gonna be ringing in about chess, you know what I mean? Oh, wouldn't that be nice if you chess side ones? That would be nice. But let's be honest. We're going to rip open all our old pain.

Yeah. And all our old mistakes. Yeah. Thanks for this. Thank you. Appreciate it. Share it with each other. So why don't you ask for the first question on today's Listen Big. All right. What is the first question? Come on, hit me.

Hello, Makeda and Jordan. My name's Maddie. I am initially from Berkshire, but I moved to Birmingham for uni and I've just stayed on. My question for you is what do you call cheating in a relationship? Because obviously some people have like different things of what they regard as cheating, like messaging somebody or liking other people's pictures. For me, cheating is pretty black and white. Like if I've seen you kiss someone, then I'd say that's cheating. But I'd love to hear your thoughts. Thank you so much and love you. Bye.

Perfect way to start. So I think there are two sides. There are the act and the levels of it. And then there is the timing of said act. So for instance, quite famously in Friends, Ross, we were on a break. So they were on a break. So that wasn't cheating or was it? I think that divided the world at one point, that question from Ross. The act is something that you dissect in your book and yeah, I guess we're going straight in. You talk about this, I thought this was really interesting being put into kind of a camp of just terrible bastards that all cheat. I have cheated, I am a cheater. And so I suppose at that point levels of the act are thrown to the wayside and you are just a cheater.

Yeah. I do believe there needs to be some nuance with cheating mainly around intention, location, for me personally. Location? Yeah. It's not cheating if I'm in Australia. Okay which do you think would be worse right? Somebody drunkenly snogging a work colleague at a Christmas party or somebody shagging an ex in your bed.

Ah! Yeah, okay. Got it. Do you know what I mean? That's what I mean. By location. Context. But, you know, I think people have a right to say that, you know, any kind of physical betrayal is people's line. You know, what I find so fascinating about cheating or infidelity or whatever is that it's one of the most painful acts on the basis that you are torturing someone with their own imagination. That's what I think is wild. God, that's really...

Because the person's not there. That's what's so wild. Outside of sexual health, which is obviously one of the most important aspects of it and not getting someone pregnant, et cetera. Like in reality, the act is happening somewhere else and that person may actually come back and be completely the same. But it's what we're trying to avoid is the idea that we have to compare or wonder or that's the torture.

Oh God, yeah. Left with it. Left with those thoughts. Yeah. Which is why you need to find people with aphantasia because... I'm joking. What's that one? You can't remember anything. It's when people struggle to imagine things in their minds. Sorry. Who's here? That was a really niche inside joke with myself. Yeah. I just discovered it last year. It's actually a real thing. People can't visualise things in their head.

God, wouldn't that, I feel like that would all be a blessing and a curse. Be a blessing and a curse. I'm deaf, just for clarity, I'm not saying it's okay to cheat on people with that face actually. No, you can't pick them out and then really fuck them over. I was watching You've Got Mail recently over Christmas and she is cheating on her husband with Tom Hanks' character. She is waiting for him to leave the house and then getting very excited about going online and having an intimate relationship with this other guy online and he's doing

the same to Parker Posey. It's kind of worse. So do you exactly so email cheat. I think it's kind of worse. So, yeah, exactly. So email, cheat. I think it's just a betrayal. It is also, yeah, but betrayals, that's the thing is, it's important to understand like what each person expects from the situation. And then you make an agreement.

And then it's that person's responsibility to honor that agreement. And if it's not honored, then it's really fucking painful. But I do think there is, and this is why actually, even though I'm joking, I do think it's good that you've put it up as a topic because, and Esther, anybody who's ever cheated in the world has listened to Esther Perrell speak because she seems to be the only public speaker therapist who is not completely demonic when discussing people who have cheated. You know, she looks at it from a very, from years of speaking to couples, she approaches it from the space of like, look, people cheat for these reasons. It's actually not personal, even though it will obviously feel personal because you betray someone's trust

and whatever else. And there are more complex reasons other than that's a bad person, that's a good person, you hate me, you hate this person, you want them to feel like shit. And sex is usually quite low on the reasons of it as well. Yeah, since the dawn of lava and sex, people have done this. So why are we not talking about it more? It shouldn't be taboo. If we had got everything right, then surely we wouldn't be in a space where nearly every person has experienced or cheated.

So I think, yeah, if you make a personal agreement and if you break it, that's the betrayal. Good answer. Let's have another question. Hello, hello. I'm Bailey. I am from a small village in West Sussex. And my question relating to cheating is cheating with board games. Now I've become quite famous in my family for being an infamous cheat when it comes to monopoly. And my

technique is always the person sitting next to me or either side of me. If they go up and grab a cup of tea or go and grab a snack, I love to pilfer small amounts of money at a time, build up my own stack. And then that sort of enabled me to win sort of usually every time. And I've enlisted my mum as a co-conspirator in this and she does the same thing. But my sister, on the other hand, hates it and sort of refuses to engage with us when it comes to those kinds of games. So my question to both of you is,

are you sort of hardline purist when it comes to games and don't allow for any sort of bending of the rules or cheating, or do you like to dabble in a little bit of cheating when it serves you to win? Thanks. Is there a problem Jordan? Is there a problem with the question? Because I have a fucking answer. We recently as a family played a game of Articulate in Kenya and Jordan was on a team with my father Garfield for his sins and Garfield cheats and I can't stand it and Garfield was cheating.

I can't believe it. See? Oh my god. I can't believe you can't still. We're back home. It's been a few weeks and you still can't admit to me that Garfield was cheating. Either way, Garfield was cheating by mouthing the word to Jordan, which you're not allowed to do in particular. Jordan didn't notice but I did. So I shouted at Garfield, which threw Jordan off. And Jordan got really pissed off deeply. Can I just say they were winning and they continue to win the entire game. Thank you.

Because you told the story correctly and I just, the listeners will decide. You actually did. No, no, no. I just, I'm actually really glad that you just put that. It was so good because that is clear for me. This is factual, this is what went down. Why I would be frustrated.

You made it clear, Garfield cheated, I didn't notice and you shouted at me and threw me off and you're wondering why I was upset. No, no, no. Yes, that's what he did. If you're teething because you were upset. Mekiza, I didn't see it. You were upset with me.

The person who created the whole. You shouted at me. Yes, but Garfield was cheating. So you should then go, Garfield, we shouldn't cheat. And then Makeda won't shout at us about it. And then I won't be thrown out. I didn't know he was cheating. I know.

But once I told you why I'd shouted. This is like somebody waving the answer to a test result behind someone's head and you being annoyed at me. I get why you're angry, but I don't. There has to be a connection between the, like, I didn't see it. The shout and the blank. No, we didn't cheat because I didn't see it. Okay, sorry.

Does that answer your question? Does that answer your question, gentlemen? Anyway, this guy is like, I would, if this person had played monopoly with me, that is ridiculous. I was assuming it'd be like a little crafty cheat. That's like a crock. That's a blatant cheat. He's robbing people, robbing people. Just taking the money from the bank. Hang on Jordan. So do you think he's cheating? So you believe that's be cheating. Do you agree with it? You don't think cheating should be in a board game? That is unacceptable in Monopoly.

So what about the fact that your team member was cheating within game? What is your reaction? What are your feelings towards that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It would have been devastating if I saw what he was doing, which I didn't, so it wasn't cheating.

It would have been devastating. Okay, do you know what? This is the equivalent of somebody robbing someone's Rolex, whatever, running up to give it to me, me not noticing that, and then getting arrested for theft. That's not quite right. Yeah, someone trying to give me a stolen item

and I don't take it, why am I gonna get it? Yes, but then you'll be an accomplice. Why would I be an accomplice? I didn't, okay, anyway. Yes, but you were there. Anyway, let's leave that wound from Kenya Christmas, New Year's 2025. Let's have another question.

Anyway, we still won. I'm not competitive by the way. I'm not competitive at all by the way. Let's please just keep this shit rolling. But that person needs to sort their lives out in the monopoly thing. That is abhorrent. Hi, Meketra and Jordan.

This is Rosie from Chesterfield, but I live in London at the moment. The other day I was on TikTok and I watched this video where this girl said that cheating is different for different genders because they have different relations to it. So when men cheat, it's purely like a physical and sort of lustful thing,

and therefore it's kind of forgivable because supposedly that's in their nature. Whereas when women cheat it's an emotional thing and therefore disrespectful. And I'm not really sure about that. But it did make me think about emotional and physical cheating. And I've always kind of thought that physical cheating would be easier to forgive. And I've not been in a position where I've had to do that. But is any cheating forgivable? Is one more forgivable than the other, and do men and women approach those things differently?

Would love to get your thoughts. Thank you. The way you looked at me straight away. I think it is important that you take this one. So you usually have a bloke here. Yes, well, in short, yes, I do believe, obviously, that cheating is forgivable. That cheating is forgivable because, I mean, that was all the work I did on myself in the wake of having cheated. And I wasn't proud of it mainly because I had broken an agreement.

The difference is that, you know, I personally have, I think, more open-minded views than the everyday person. I certainly don't think that a single act can define an entire person's life. Perhaps a second act, or perhaps everything in and around that act, you know? One thing I find baffling, or one thing I find interesting ethically,

is you could have somebody who's an incredible partner, and then for whatever reason, something personal they're going through themselves, whatever, or something they haven't quite got their heads around, something happens, and they're honest. Obviously in my world, if that person has told me the truth, I value the truth above anything. So there I'm going, well, okay, I'm her and I don't know what I'm going to do, but I at least respect that person. And that's an important brick. There are people in relationships now, this is why I question kind of how things play out,

who haven't physically cheated on their partners, but their relationship is fucking awful. Like, it's an awful, like, it is a horrendous relationship, but because there isn't any socially accepted, you know, breaking point or anything that's unforgivable, do you know what I any socially accepted, you know, breaking point or anything that's unforgivable, do you know what I mean? It's like almost, it's socially acceptable to be emotionally damaging for a long time. But like the second you do, do you know what I mean?

But, but I think there's a lot of cowardice in, cause actually the only person that's ever cheated on me, but he cheats on me with a lot of different people. It is more like, why do I have to be present for this to be more interesting? Why don't we just break up and you just sleep with dirty bitches from bars? I don't mind, but why do I have to be here? And it felt a bit like I had to be there

for it to be interesting and sexy. Me being her was part of it. And that's all about intent and why you cheat. And then for instance, I have cheated and the time I cheated was with this ex on a new person that I was going out with because I was still in love with that ex. So I suppose maybe my feelings weren't just lustful and about sex. I missed him and I was still in love with him. Maybe that is more of a female thing, but I think that's just where someone might be at at the time of cheating and maybe a reason for it.

Yeah. I mean, ultimately, I think the real pain is looking someone in the eyes who you've exchanged, you know, in a really powerful sentiment with that you love them, I guess. And then you think, wow, you've made all these decisions and not once have you thought about how that would affect the mental torture or whatever. So that's probably quite difficult to kind of come back from that reality unless there's more context like the person's spiralling or whatever else or there's an obvious trigger point. Somebody might have lost a parent or whatever else and they haven't got the tools to understand how to work through that with a person, which they should by the way. I don't think people should stay,

but I'm just saying there may be some scenarios where there's something to hold on to. But saying that, now in a relationship, I mean, you know, it is difficult to get my head around, how would I get to a point or how would a person get to a point where they can fall into that without there having been at least a conversation before? Like at least a space to pull the relationship back in. I don't know. I don't even know how people live with the guilt. I could bear the guilt. I couldn't bear it. I was like, this is too, this is horrible. I just didn't feel like a good person

every single second of the day. The one thing I've noticed, and again, I don't know what this is, it must be to do with socializing or conditioning or perhaps hormones. I don't know how it works biologically, but I do think that it feels as though with women, in my experience, if they have emotional or sexual feelings towards a person, they see that as a signification that the relationship isn't working. Whereas with guys, there seems to be a separation between the relationship working and the desire to have sex, which is... Correct.

So I don't know. Is that a thing? Do men have it more... Madonna whore. Madonna whore. Madonna whore. It's like the age-old tale of like, you're my safe, nice girlfriend, I'm gonna go out and fuck people. I also think, though, that we all never really understand in this current climate, the natural sexual inclinations of women because the first thing women have to consider nowadays is their safety.

I think if women felt safe, who knows what kind of... In what sense of safety? If two people to have an open relationship, for example, a guy could go out and, you know, oh, that's fun, you know, might end up here, might go away here. A woman doesn't have that same space. you know, you have to know the person, the person has to know where you are. Even if, I just think it's responsible to do that, you know. A woman would have to almost bring, always bring a guy back to their place,

you can't go to the guy's place, you know, it's just, I feel like there's more to consider as a woman. Yeah, there's something else, yeah, absolutely fucking lately. Why don't you ask for the next question? Sorry, next question. Hi, Miquita and Jordan. My name is Kath. I am from Hampshire. And I'm 47. So older than you guys. Anyway, on the subject of cheating. I wondered if you ever felt that one of your friends cheated on you by having better friends.

I've had this a few times where I've got a really close friend, she doesn't live close to me, but when she talks about other friends and doing bestie stuff with her, then I struggle with that a little bit and it feels like cheating. So I wondered if you ever had that with a friend? No. That's a yes. No, not really now. Do you remember like I used to get, I was very control-y in my social life when we were younger, very much these are my friends here, we do this,

you know, but maybe because it was all on my dime, a lot of our socializing, I think a part of that was like trying to control everything. Who hung out with who and when for how long in what room Like that's how much of a crazy bitch I can be with my control freak issues um, and I was young and high but Now i'm really loose with People being closer to other I used to be like but I I made those two friends and Phoebe's like yeah And that's how friendships start and like what's your point?

And and it was like well, I need to control it and possibly be in the middle of it. And now I love seeing other things develop around me. The other day, we had a Christmas party and tall Phoebe and her girlfriend, Takiyah came and got on really well with like my auntie Rose, Rose Boy, and they then went to lunch at her house the other day. And I was like, no, this is, I love that. That's a bit like my cousin thing. I like things becoming family and extending. Sorry, it's not really answering the question. Yeah, you're not. You're going a little aside from the question.

It's very straight up Nikita. Have you had a best friend who's dropped your stupid ass and started hanging out with someone else and did it fucking hurt? Just, it's a straight, you don't have to go into details. It's just a yes or no, bruv. The answer's yes. Yes, yeah.

It hurts, I love this question. Yeah, my cousin moved out of my flat when we were in our early 20s to move in with this bitch that I hated, who had just started kissing the boy that I liked at the time. So it was a double whammy. I'm moving out.

I'm moving in with her and I don't like Kierney Moore. And I was like, what a bitch. Yeah. Yeah. I was very jealous of their time together. Ah! Her, it's in a... I have felt... I don't know. This is just what comes to mind.

I don't know if it's specifically exactly what she's saying in terms of, like, maybe the jealousy and envy, but I did once introduce a flatmate to one of my best friends and they fell in love and they ended up What I believe to be manufacturing a fallout with me No, I actually truly believe that was the first time I was truly heartbroken. But wait, babe, what do you mean? Why would they manufacture a fallout so that they could get away from you and be a couple? I don't know. I mean, listen, if by some bizarre chance the woman is listening to this, she'll be fuming. She probably thinks that I was

awful and I was controlling and all these kinds of things, but I was like desperately trying to have individual relationships with people, two people I knew individually. And then suddenly they became a single organism. and I'd be like, hey, do you guys want to come over for my birthday? And then they'd be like, I will see you in a couple of days. We're going to, and I'm like, oh, that fucking sucks. And then I'll get annoyed about it. And then it'd be like, well, why do you want us to do things with you all the time? That kind of thing. And I'll be like, this sucks. What am I talking about? I have so done this. What am I talking about?

Do you remember in lockdown when we were both heartbroken? I also, I was a bit doubly heartbroken because I'd introduced this new friend of mine to an old friend of mine. I just like they'll be perfect for each other. She was like a tennis pro. He loved tennis. He thought he was cooler than her, but I knew he wasn't. Yeah. They got in a really serious relationship as I was becoming really upset. And then she decided that she didn't want me around because I didn't believe in their love. Oh, my God. That still pisses me off.

That sentence. And I wasn't jealous. I was fucking hurt. That's what I mean. It hurts. It really hurts. Suddenly my friend Seb was like, I don't know whether you can come around because like they're coming around. I was like, how has this happened? How has this happened? Yeah. Well, let's have a little break, shall we, JJ? Have I ever called you JJ? Yeah, I love ad breaks.

We'll have on then. Hi, Kush Jumbo here. My podcast Origins is where the biggest names in entertainment tell me the stories that made them who they are today. This week on Origins is KSI. I did boxing as a joke, if that makes sense. So- No, continue. Did you and Tommy Fury become friends? No. No. I would be sweating if I was like sitting next to another woman. I didn't know how to talk to females. Listen to Origins with Kush Jumbo wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to Listen Bitch.

Welcome back. You better be listening, bitch. Let's have another question. For this week's Listen Bitch, the theme is cheating. You cheating bastards. We're just talking about it all. Hi Jordan. Hi Makita. So my question is, in a highly technological world where cheating and micro-cheating are so prevalent in society via mobile phones and the internet, how can we still continue to have an online presence without the fear of partners or future partners letting us down and vice versa? I think it's an extremely complicated area with so many nuances. What do you think? By the way, it's Darren. complicated area with so many nuances.

What do you think? By the way, it's Darren. I'm from London, but I live in Brazil. Yes, Darren, with your life. Hey, listen, if there's one space where there's going to be micro cheating, it's Brazil, but I'm telling you that for sure. The liberal out in Brazil. Oh, right.

What like, lay back. I've heard, I've heard, I've heard. Right. That's probably why they seem so happy and free, the Brazilians. Arguably. Anita, one of the biggest Latin American artists, famously has about 17 boyfriends, which is cool. That's right.

Go on, Anita. So, wait a minute. No, that's a really valid question actually. Social media within your relationship, Does it just bring up stuff? Because I really don't wanna go, I'm hoping to, my next partner has nothing to do with social media, cannot deal with it. Because it's big enough in my life,

I don't really wanna have it doubled. You know like those people, you know those people that aren't on Instagram, they exist. It's just entertainment is kind of unrealistic unless you're going out with an actor and I'm prom... Without getting myself in trouble, I would recommend not going out with an actor. But I don't want to date people in entertainment,

as I've mentioned many times. Well, you are, yeah, great. Fantastic. Micro-cheating, firstly, what is that term? Crazy. Micro-cheat. I guess it means a little... It basically means all the shit on Instagram, which is all... Well, like liking someone's pictures and that. Yes, exactly. And I'm sorry, but...

Doing a fire emoji on the story. Crazy. No, okay. Let's do this then. Let's do levels of emoji. Fire is a fucking piss take. It's a piss take. It's a piss take. And you know what? It's a piss take as well. It's more about the respect. It's the respect thing, isn't it? It's for your partner. Like someone sat there going, rawr, like, like this person's boyfriend's just dropped a fire emoji.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like you're now a fool to them and me. With your fire. It's the equivalent of just seeing someone in life and going like, in front of them. In front of your missus. People know what thirst traps are. Yes, exactly. If someone drops a thirst trap, you can't be dropping a thing going like,

going like, love this, love this. There's either like, I love this for Keats or fuck, okay. Yeah, but I do think there should be, I think there should always be in a relationship a space where someone can appreciate beauty and not feel terrified. I think that's also important because it freaks me out to think that a human being could be in a relationship and not be like, wow, that person's hot. That's not, I'm expecting that.

Yeah. It's something to be tempered, I suppose though. Or maybe it's a feeling that doesn't need to be tempered and that's why you know that you're in love and you're settled and you're grounded. I think you should just be able to say what you like. Like people, like there's such a difference between, oh this person's attractive and I want to spend my life with this person. Like that's a lesson I learned. Yeah, yeah. The hard way.

Trust me, like beauty, like if anyone out there is confused about you know whether or not a beautiful person can be completely incompatible with you, yes they can. Like it's, there's no, but it's, it's one of these things that we do fall into as human beings. We get bound to the, this fantasy we create in our heads, but these people are fallible. They, they have, they have complications. They are insecure. They, they have these bizarre values.

Let's have another question because this is interesting and this might come up more. Okay, cool. Which cause we just got some more questions. You're so sweet. Why don't you ask for it? So next question. Hi, my name is G, I'm 20 and I'm from Cambridgeshire. This week's theme of cheating feels so very relevant to me and my life. I was in a very long term relationship and it actually ended due to him cheating multiple, multiple times. However, I always found myself going back and I mean always going back and I didn't know whether it was just me being young, my naivety, he was older than me so I thought perfect and it really destroyed my confidence and

my question is do you think that after someone cheats on you, you can ever go back to trusting not only them as a person but relationships? Love the podcast. Love you, Makita. I mean, I love Lily but Jordan, one icon from my childhood. Love you guys. Thank you. Bigging us all up. Thank you, sweets. Actually, I was talking about this with my friend. I'm sure she won't mind me saying because she did call me up to go, the theme is cheating. I have some fucking things to say. I was like, yeah, I bet you do but she took a cheating partner back After a lot of begging and pleading And the fucker did it again. I think about eight months later

but what she learned was that it's actually not personal and It could have been anyone I can confirm I can confirm that right It could have been anyone that he cheated on or cheated on before or got with next it could have been anyone. I can confirm, I can confirm that. Right, it could have been anyone that he cheated on or cheated on before or got with next. It could have been, this is the way that person is behaving right now. You just happen to get caught in their line of fire. Facts.

It affects you, but yeah. Facts. Oh good, I'm happy you agree. I can confirm, and it's gonna be a sticking point because like I say, a person will be like, how could it be possible to commit an act like that without the understanding that it will destroy me? That's the reason why this is this social taboo,

constant battle, once a cheat, all that kind of stuff. I can say from having been on both sides, admittedly when I was cheated on I was about 17. So I don't know if that is real, but it happened. Yes. Yeah, I think, you know, like no one should not be angry, no one should not feel pain, but I do, I can say it's often an act of self-sabotage and it's more of a remark on a person's struggle to sometimes be loved.

This is the deep thing about it. Sometimes people are so uncomfortable believing that somebody loves them. Actually, here's the other weird one I've actually heard directly from a few friends. Some people are so uncomfortable with the fear that they themselves will be abandoned, that they unconsciously, if they're not doing the work, they will unconsciously create the space situation in which they are abandoned. They create what they're most afraid of. Yeah, of course, self-fulfilling prophecy.

But I just remembered something actually. The boyfriend that did cheat on me said to me that he actually found it almost too much how much I loved him. Yeah. He was like, it just, and it wasn't like, oh, you're too needy. He was like, it made, because I hated myself so much,

I found it almost confusing and then angering. And he was angry with me a lot of the time. And I was like, how can you be angry with me? I just think you're brilliant. And he just did that. He didn't feel that about himself. So I imagine it was pretty fucking irritating and hard. Yeah, yeah.

I think one thing I don't like about it is this real push on morality about good and bad. Like we are all, I believe, capable of making mistakes. We're all capable of hurting other people. We are bound to do that as human beings. If we want to be able to recover from a situation where we've been hurt, I think it's important for us to just learn more about that, you know, engage with the horrendous duality of the human experience and understand that it's not, it's not unique. That's exactly, I think that's why people like to put things in a box and sort of title

things and simplify things. Good man, bad man, good behavior, bad behavior, because we all know that both exist within us and that is fucking terrifying. And cheating actually really is all about choice. When you you just said, now, this act, this single act will destroy me, will destroy my life. People like to get close to that stuff, Jordan. I know I have in the past. Oh, this could destroy everything. Let's go.

I've been so self-sabotaging in the past that actually that shit excited me. Blow it up. Obviously I don't live like that anymore, but I do, but that has existed within me. Okay. Should we get the last question for this very bloody special episode with Jordan? I really tried hard to not chat on that one. No, you're good. Much more concise. Hello there to our stunning hosts, Ms. Makeda and our lovely guest Mr. Jordan. My name is Fletcher and I'm in North Hamptonshire. So for this week's Listen Bitch, I want to ask you guys, would you rather,

this is just hypothetical, just hypothetical, would you rather be the cheater or the cheaty? What do you think? Let me know, I wanna hear. Thank you. Oh, Fletcher, Fletcher, Fletcher. That's such a Fletcher question. I think, do you know what, in my relationships, you don't believe I've had, I don't think the cheating was the most hurtful

part. I think more running away from me and rejection have been hardest in my life because they mirror my relationship with my father. So I just, I don't see the being cheated on as the most heartbreaking thing that's ever happened to me. I don't think I'd be down for it, but the guilt of cheating was worse for me. So I think I'd rather be the cheated rather than the cheater. I just thought I'm too pedantic to be able to answer questions like this. What do you mean? Okay. All right. Yes. Okay. I'll say it. I'll say it after three, cheater or cheated. One, two. Three, I need more information. I need more information.

Do you know what I mean though? We were like, let's just have a quick one. So everything has to be, you need to know the context, the moment, the time. Well, this is paradoxical to how we began this. Listen, bitch, we're talking about nuance. And then someone goes, would you rather cheat or be cheated on?

What kind of cheat are we talking about? What, what, what? Would I rather disappear to another country with someone that my partner knows for three, no, never in life, that would be horrendous. Okay. Do I have kids? Am I 50? Am I 25?

Like, what the fuck? Okay, what feeling do you think you can hold better, being betrayed or betraying? Immediately, in my most grounded, realistic, like right now space, obviously being betrayed is hardcore because you have to confront it and face it and let it go. That's really, really hard. The guilt and shame of having done a bad thing. Yeah, I guess it is also awful. Oh, I don't know. Oh, okay. Wait, can I ask you a question? This is interesting. Yeah. Because it's me and Jada have the opposite view on this and I want't know. Oh, okay. Wait, can I ask you a question? This is interesting. Yeah. This is me and Jane have the opposite view on this. And I want to know what your

view is. Hit me. Would you rather know your partner cheated with someone who you thought was unattractive or really attractive? Yeah. No, I've thought about this. Because someone that I liked went for the most fucking average person after me and I was like, what the actual fuck? Yeah, so you want them to be fire, right? No, but then I was like, if it was like some vibey mix race sort of like other TV presenter or something, I don't know, that, remember then I'd feel like they were just looking for me. No, I'm not saying similar to you, don't know.

No, it hurt more that she was average. Yeah, pissed me off more. So, yeah, so we, I'm with saying similar to you, don't know. No, it hurt more that she was average. Yeah, pissed me off more. So, yeah, so I'm with you on that. Because then you're left with more questions, like, really? Like, do you even rate me? My issue is I'm in my ego because I'm there like, yo, listen, if you're going to go off, it better be someone lit. Like, do you know what I mean?

It better be someone like, where I'm like, oh, I would. And then I'm like, yeah, because that's a good reflection on me because you're a great taste. If it turns out that a person, I'm looking at them and going, what? I'll be like, so how do I even know if I'm attractive? What the? Yeah, actually one person I used to like years and years ago, they always went for, instead of me, for the average kind of brunette girl.

I was used to that. I was like, yeah, it makes sense. And then they started going out with vibey, really attractive mixed race girls. And I was like, this is a vibe. And I felt seen again. Okay. Right. I said to that person, I said, you always wanted to go with a hot vibe mixed race girl. He was like, yeah, I knew.

So second hand high. A second hand high. Okay. Well, I did think about when I was chatting to Jay's like, yeah, innit? So get a secondhand high a second hand high, okay Well, I did think about when I was Chinese jaded on holiday She I suddenly remembered that I did know a little bit about her past boyfriends and they I thought were all quite white Skinny with curtains awful. Yeah awful. But how does that make the 12 year old Jordan who wanted green eyes feel? I couldn't care less Check you out. I literally couldn't. I live life to avoid having to say things like this because it is very egoic, whatever

else, but I really mean this. I couldn't be less worried, threatened, stressed about Jade's previous life and relationships. That's just not in my being as a person. I don't care. And actually, I love talking about it. I absolutely love talking about it. It's just that's just me personally. I know that some people get funny about stuff, but I love people's it. I absolutely love talking about it. It's just, that's just, me personally, I know that some people get funny about stuff,

but I love people's past, I love their history. I'm not one of these, I believe, to be kind of regressive men who have to, or women, that have to believe that their partner's never ever slept with another person in their life. Like, yeah, it happened. Yeah, no, I realized that when you both were talking about your exes on the holiday, and I was like,

God, they talk about their exes naturally, often. Yeah, it's important. And I thought that was really good. It's like people have history, but I have a friend who's a very smart, brilliant person who that's just, he's very aware. He's like, for me, that's just where my pain lies when I think about their exes.

But that goes into, we looked into it. And of course it goes straight into his parents and the way he was brought up and stuff. So it's fine. There is always an answer. It's a flag. It's a flag. It's a flag, smart or answer. That's a flag. It's a flag. It's a flag. Smart or not, it's a flag.

It's a flag. I don't care if that motherfucker's got a PhD, get him in therapy. He's in therapy. I need my own relationship podcast because this is too much fun. I want to just grill people on their time. This is not a relationship podcast.

That's just what we're talking about today. I've not even been able to speak about the jeopardy that Short Men have put to it. I didn't get to stand up for short men. Oh yeah, you did say you wanted to do that as well. I wanted to do that. Listen, this is a shout out to my short men. Yeah. In terms of types, height, outrageous. Don't let me get less for another podcast. I know if Jordan thinks it's absolutely outrageous to say that your type is tall,

because being short as a man or a woman isn't something you can avoid I love that you care about that for all short guys because you're not short guy passionately But Jordan, thank you for this extra special episode of listen be cheers keeps and next week filling in for miss Lily Allen is for Miss Lily Allen is Simon Amstel, Jordan. Simon Amstel. The first time that Simon and I will have been on air together since the day we left Pop World. And actually this year is Pop World's 25th anniversary. That's crazy. So I guess it is kind of a big deal. Get off the pressure! The theme for next week's Listen Bitch with my former Pop World co-host. I can't actually believe we're going to be on air together again.

I really hope that it goes well. The theme is spirituality. Spirituality and anything that that comes with. Thank you, Jordan. He won't be half as good as you are. You were brilliant. You've got that seat warm for him. He fucking will. Shout out Simon Amstel. Yeah, he'll be amazing.

If you have a question for the great Simon Amstel for the T4 pop star reunion around spirituality, please contact 08000 304090. Yeah, thank you. It's pop world as you well know. It was a long time ago. It was 25 years ago this year. 25 years ago? Yes! No, you're lying.

Yes, the 25th anniversary this year someone told me. I was like, oh Jesus Christ. So no pressure on this pop world reunion, Missy. Oh yeah, because you were like seven when you started. That's crazy. You were doing drugs in Groucho Toilet at 12. Thank you, Jordan. You can go now.

Sorry. You can go now. Actually, no, it was Jagger. It was one of the Jaggers you were just hanging out with. How dare you? Who was the Jagger you used to, who asked you to live with all the time? Oh my God, none.

Jade? Maybe Jade. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jade. Yeah. So the birthday at the loft, right? Yeah. At the loft in Willsden. That was my 30th.

Oh my God. And you sat in a corner surrounded by the Jaggers and didn't say hi to one single fucker at this party. There's about 300 people there. Oh God. You fucking antisocial lunatic. Thank you for saving that last little breath of fresh air about the real Meketa Oliver. At 30, that was me 10 years ago, what an asshole.

Thank you darling, I will see you at your birthday. All right. Okay, love you, bye. Love ya. Bye. Thanks for listening to Miss Me with Lily Allen and Makita Oliver. This is a Persephoneca production for BBC Sounds. Calling all music buffs. Hey, hey, turn the volume up, yeah?

Make Me A Mixtape is back. I'm Jordan Stevens. I'm Clara Amfo and this is our weekly music show. A celebrity guest picks the theme. We select the tunes. And we battle it out to create the ultimate mix tape. May the best music lover win. Oh, it's about to go down.

Let's go! Make Me A Mix Tape. Listen only on BBC Sounds. Hi, Kush Jumbo here. My podcast Origins is where the biggest names in entertainment tell me the stories that made them who they are today. This week on Origins is KSI. I did boxing as a joke, if that makes sense.

No, continue. Did you and Tommy Fury become friends? No, I would be sweating if I was like sitting next to another woman. I didn't know how to talk to females. Listen to Origins with Kus Jumbo wherever you get your podcasts.