Miss Me? - Listen Bitch! Our So-Called Life

Episode Date: May 4, 2026

Miquita Oliver and Zawe Ashton answer your questions about the TV teenage drama.Next week, we want to hear your questions about COFFEE. Please send us a voice note on WhatsApp: [phone]. Or, if you like, send us an email: [e-mail] episode contains very strong language and adult themes. Credits: Producer: Natalie Jamieson Technical Producer: Oliver Geraghty Assistant Producer: Caillin McDaid Production Coordinator: Rose Wilcox Executive Producer: Dino Sofos Commissioning Producer for BBC: Jake Williams Commissioners: Dylan Haskins & Lorraine Okuefuna Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Join me, Joanna Page, and my on-screen husband. That's me, Matthew Horne, for our brand-new podcast, Table for Four. Each week we'll be joined by celebrity duos for a chat and a slap-up meal. And we've got some amazing guests coming up, including Gary Barlow and Ollie Smith, Arlene Phillips and Bradley Richards, Matt Edmondson and Molly King, the town's ends. We'll be chatting about food relationships. trips and everything in between.

So make sure you subscribe to table for four wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of Miss Me contains very strong language and adult themes. Welcome to Listen Bitch. Probably my favourite. I'm going to be biased for us like I'm going to say one of my favourite topics for Listen Bitch as an avid fan and a side piece. It is. Televisual teen drama

I love these are television teen drama Absolutely the television teen drama As mentioned last week We really feel that we were spoiled We were given We were there in the glory days

We were there for the early stuff We were there for fresh prints We were there for hanging with Mr Cooper Sweet Valley High if you will Oh sweet valley high if you will Sister sister Sister who's sister's sister.

The sister. Dug back to the way to sister. This is what I mean. It's literally, the theme tune was everything. Everything. Those people were sitting there, jamming, writing lyrics that meant stuff. But then you go into the sort of naughties, which I was very lucky to actually be like giving these shows to people. Because I realized half the shows I was researching, like, they were on T4.

So these theme tunes were like. You were throwing. You were throwing. I was throwing to these shows. You were throwing, bitch. You were throwing, bitch. This is actually called throwing bitch today. No, but I don't think people understand.

That's like a TV term, but it's a particularly T4 TV term because T4 was not a TV show. It was a place that held all these shows and you would throw to friends. Throw to the O.C. I haven't heard that in so long. I feel like I'm 22 again on the T4 set. Let's do this. You be Steve Jones. I'll be with Peter Oliver.

And we'll see if June Sarpong wants. to come. She might. She was commenting on our clips actually. She would, she would pop in, actually. Oh, God, that woman is so deep in my heart. We don't talk about June Sarpong enough, sidebar. No. This episode is for June Sarpong. Let's have our first question for today's listen, bitch. We can't talk about 90s, teen sitcoms or dramas without talking about my so-called life. Legendary. Absolutely legendary. Angela. My girl adored her. I was ready to go to war. War for her. My heart broke when there was only one series of that because it was perfect. Perfect TV. So yeah, just shattered. Is there a show that

you also think should have got more episodes and would have loved to see more of? Thank you. The podcast is brilliant. I'm Laura from Talford. Thank you. Laura, thank you. Thank you, Laura. You've gone straight to the heart of the matter, really. If you didn't ever get to see my so-called life, I think me and Lil have talked about it because it's such a huge part of our teens. But like, it was groundbreaking. Earth-shattering as a show.

Ricky? Ricky Vasquez. Oh, okay. I did not remember his surname. Don't try me with my so-called life. The cuts are so deep. It lives in my soul. I am Angela Chase.

And I'm also a bit of Jordan Catalano. I don't know. They're both in my, in my psyche. Rayan, the wayward friend, Rayan. So if people haven't seen it, it's hard. Like, Angela Chase was Claire Day's, she was the central character, like the ultimate outsider who had this incredible gang of friends who, like you're saying, were so ahead of their time. Ricky Vasquez, the first gay out teen that I'd seen on television.

And he was a person of colour. Forward thinking. Rayan was just like sexually promiscuous. She fronted a band called the Frozen Embryos. Do you remember this? How fucking her head of its time is that? Wow. And then there was Jordan Catalano, the love interest, played by,

we're separating the man from the artist, Jared Leto. There's some problems there. This is before we knew who was problematic, but what a face. And you don't understand. He's like popular, right? He wasn't a jock, though. It wasn't a jock, but he was popular. And Angela wasn't.

And they have this fucking undeniable attrower. And she interests him and asks him questions he's not used to being asked. And they spend one episode, I think it's like the third episode, kissing secretly. And it's so hot. It's so hot. She asks for more. She asks for more. She's like, what is this?

Suffice to say, they go through a little thing. And then at the end of the episode, he takes her hand and walks down the hallway with her and is proud to say, I'm kissing Angela. God. And then they kiss, all the kissing between her and Jordan Catalano was my first. sexual awakening. Yeah. It was like, this is hot.

This is just fucking hot. That's all I could say. I'm going to say, for me, it was unbearable. Too much. It was the unbearable lightness of being. It's not a novel. You thought it was a novel, but it was actually just Angela and Jordan kissing. It was unbearable.

It was painfully beautiful in every way. It was hotter than hotness that. we had ever felt or seen at that time. It was hotter than sex. It was for sure hotter than like sexy. And it was like, this is deep. And they felt for each other. And I agree with you, Laura, there was only one series.

And I wanted more, but I think that's why we love it. Because they didn't give us more. So a little bit like faulty towers. You know what I mean? It's like it was just, it was just enough. Love that throw. Yeah. Might have got like faulty towers.

But I, you know, Simon Amstall really taught me this, you know, let things, have legacy. Let it be. Because I'd still be doing Pop World now if he hadn't told me we had to stop. I'd still be doing it. I'd be like, I got a nice paycheck. We're very culturally, relevant.

You make me laugh. And we interview Pop Star. I'm never leaving this job. I was like, where are we going? But he was right. Leave it when it's time. And I think my so-called life was meant to be one series, definitely. Oh, that's what my grandma used to say.

Leave when they'll still miss you. Leave when they'll miss you. I feel like the young hot things of today, I can't find space in my heart for them because there was already Jordan Catalano. So like the guys doing the thing with the t-shirt and the string of pearls, well, first of all, I'm like, hello, David Bowie, Prince. But I'm also like Jordan Catalano was wearing baggy car car car go trousers,

builders like steel tow cap boots. Oh, it's still so fit. A lumberjack shacket with shearling collar. and a choker. Yes, he was. That choker was always present. Oh. The leather choker.

I'm like, unless you're doing that level of layering, I'm not, what are you trying to, I can't be impressed. It's going to be real. Jordan meant it. He was in pain, of course he was, a little tortured soul, sexy bastard. A little bit tidied a bit of trivia. So Tom worked with Claire Daines on a show. I know, of course.

The Essex Serpent. The Essex Serpent. Of course. I know Tom's career. Excuse me. I'm on that IMDB 24-7. Yeah, he best believe. But I got to have dinner with her. And on the way there, I was like, I don't, I don't know if I can do this. I don't know. Obviously, there was Remi and Juliet. There were all these amazing iconic roles. Do you know what I mean? Claire Daines. It was Angela Chase. And I think I got, I think I got Tom to a level of understanding where he could, even though he hadn't been in the same place that we were watching.

that show. But I think I got him to a place of understanding that he was genuinely worried about me when I was sitting next to her at dinner. He was like, is she going to be okay? She's going to be okay. How was Claire Jones? I just had to say it. She is beautiful. She is special. She is effervescent. And are generous because when I found that threshold in the meal where I was like, unless I say it, I'm not really saying anything. I'm just saying words and hearing her mouth say words. But until I break the glass between us with referencing Angela Chase and how she saved my life. I wonder how much she gets my so-called life. I bet she gets Romeo and Julia all the time, but I doubt it's as often with my so-called life. She said it definitely occupied an incredible

place in people's hearts and that they were as confused, I think, as anyone when it stopped. Did the network cut it? They cut it. It wasn't even their decision. Yeah, don't get me started. You know, it was a never meet your hero's moment that went actually extremely well. Wow. I'm so pleased that we could get that in. I'm so pleased that that's how we end of my so-called life chat. And then I told Claire what it meant to me. And she generously took it.

What a life you have. Seriously. Come on. Let's have another question. Let's get really fucking into this. Let's do this. Hi, Mikita and Zawa. My name is Danielle from Sheffield.

Being a listener since day one. Bloody love the podcast. Love you all. and it's my highlight of the week. And obviously now the theme is around teen dramas. Took me straight back to T4 days. But one drama always used to love that nobody else ever remembers was as if, and it had the theme tune,

will you go to bed with me? And any time I bring that out with anybody, nobody has a clue. So my question is, first of all, Do you even remember it? Did you love it? Do you remember it? Am I making this up or not?

And second of all, as a host of T4 and Pop World Makita, what was your favourite teen drama at the time? Love you both so much. M-Wha. Do I remember as if, I'm going to say one word to you, Zowie. Soos.

Okay. She was white and she had dreadlocks, but we loved her anyway. Yeah, we did. As If was a fucking weird one. It was like based in Labroth Grove. I'm not sure whether you remember, but it was in my ends. And as if was on T4 the year before I started hosting it. So I was just a teenager watching as if on TV. And so it means a lot to me because it was like when things got very surreal, because it's sort of like, I was watching them and then suddenly I was on this thing. And then as if stopped. So I never through to Asif, but it felt like Asif ended and my career began.

That's how it felt. And then my mum and Garfield became mates with the actress, Jamima Ruper. Yes, who I know. Yeah, she's gorgeous. She's great. And she was in As If. God, and there was like that gorgeous black girl with the short hair. Gorgeous.

Yeah, that's where a lot of my inspiration was coming from. I'm actually having to take a beat on this because that was a throwback deep cut. I wasn't actually mentally spiritually prepared for. That wasn't. I forgot about as if. As if. And I'm not really sure what the point was. What was the USA?

I guess they were like cool. I guess we were cool and it was Channel 4. And so it was a little bit more dangerous. I think they might have even taken drugs and like gone to parties and stuff. I feel like the memory of the American coded dramas is so strong. Whereas the British teen drama, it's less tangible for me. Because we just had less shit going on. Like our teenage constructs were not that of the crazy American set up, you know,

with like jocks and clubs and cheerleading squads and band and like bleachers. And so it feels like it all sort of blends it slightly into one. But I do remember as if and I do really, really love. the British teen drama because they always did go that extra kind of mile in terms of the grit, you had your grain chill, which was dealing with rape, you know, teenage pregnancy, abortion. Skins for fuck's sake. Skins, threesome's in the hot tub, definitely not my teenage years. But it was really groundbreaking skins.

I remember the skins promo came out. Let's also, this is all Channel 4. And this is when Channel 4 really made an effort to find writers that were, writing younger people with more realism, more honesty, more truth. And I remember there was that promo. Before Skin started, there was just this advert. And it looked like a David Lachapel shoot. And they just, it was like highly art directed.

And it was like this madhouse party with all these young actors you'd never seen. Yeah. Dev Patel. Never mind, Daniel Kaluya. Caluya, Jack O'Connell. Like, this was like this incredible kind of place for young. actors to suddenly be working and, you know, start their careers. Yeah. And it was an exciting time, I think.

What was your favourite from the T4 Days? I think that when the O.C. started, it felt like something very interesting was happening. It was actually Josh Schwartz, this guy called Josh Schwartz, who was, I imagine just writing his young self when he came up with Seth in the O.C. and you've got that beautiful boy from the wrong side of the tracks, Ryan being taken in by like the rich family and living with them and at the time I just moved into my rich auntie's house with all my cousins so I really understood Ryan's.

We were always, it was like the skinted and minted pages. Do you remember in Just 17? When someone would wear an outfit that was actually really expensive and then they would show the person who'd want a similar outfit that was much cheaper. The skinned, I feel like, That was the teen drama of the 90s in terms of the British and US coded. Right?

It was like the British version was very much skinted. Yeah. And there was the minted. But I wonder who you think you would have been as an American adolescent in terms of all of those tribes. Because I thought of nothing more when I was a teenager. Yeah, like, who am I in this? I was like, who would I be if I was there? I remember they did a screening of the OC at Westfield.

Bourne Studios, which is in West London where the production company that made Pop World and T4 moved to, but it also had a bar, which was where my friends and I drank. So when those two things collided, I was like, this works out brilliantly for me. And they did this big screening. We've bought this big new American teen drama. And I was like, what the fuck ever. And it started. And I was like, I love it.

I'm in. And I just wanted to be, I wanted to look like Marissa. And I couldn't believe that I didn't. And I wasn't a kid. I was like 21. I should have known better. But I was appalled. That I do.

No, but that low-rise, the low-rise era was a violent era. We were, that low-rise gene was a violent cut of gene. I recently did Marissa Cooper, like, style Google search. And she had, there was some banging looks. Like those, like, tops, like, coloured T-shirts and, like, little preppy polos with said low-rise. I mean, I think we could be quite O.C. right now. I feel I'm very makita coded today. I feel like I just tried to be you today. Well, I'm just like Marissa Cooper. So we're basically both Marissa. But it was the concave stomach.

I just have to sidebar. It was her concave stomach that was the stomach of basically every like beautiful, like typically beautiful teenage girl lead in those American dramas that I feel started such disordered thinking about body image and type for me. me because I was never going to have a concave stomach. But that girl, like, I think brought about really bad problems for me as a teenager. And it was that enjoyment and yet also, I don't know, like the terrible comparisons that you would start to draw at the time. And there was so harmless in so many ways. And like, I still think back so fondly watching. half of these shows that we're talking about,

but I kind of can't talk about them without also acknowledging that because it does make me feel kind of quite sad for the person that I was watching them. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, for the young youth. After I gave birth to my first child, the next day I went to the bathroom and I looked in the mirror and turned to the side and tried to suck my stomach in because that was, that's basically been the instinct,

coded so deep within me since being about like 13. And I just had this realization. I was just like, all this has been around for a long time. Yeah, this is old. This is really, really old. Because my baby's one day old and I'm like, it's like not an instinct, it's like a reflex. Yes.

You just wake up in the morning, look in the mirror, how flat can my stomach go? And then you think whatever thoughts come after that. Anyway, I'm not blaming Marissa. I'm not blaming any of those girls, but it's just so interesting that there were not a diverse range of bodies types. Body types or races when we talked about, when we're talking about the leads who were in these shows and they were really influential. Yeah. And it's all we saw. And you're right with the American dramas, this is very interesting. I think the reason we loved them is because especially I was going to sing one theme tune, which would pertain to this idea of the jocks and the cheerleaders.

And, you know, that's not how the British school system is set up. So it was our, you know, our window into this whole other American, like American teen high school living. So I will sing you this. I don't ever want to be what I've been trying to do lately. Does that mean? Oh, my God. I mean, me and Steve Jones would laugh far asses off at that song. And when that song came on, Zari, what show was about to come on?

Oh, my God. It's stirring something really deep within me, but I cannot place it. Let's have another question because I think that the song I was just singing may come up. Hi, Makita and Zoe. This is Jade from Milton Keynes. I'm 43 years old. And I have just finished watching One Tree Hill for the first time. It came out in 2003, so 23 years ago now.

And I've been hooked. I've just loved the nostalgia of it. I've loved looking at all of their outfits, their makeup, the way they did their hair, the cars they were driving. They're just, everything about it really has just been really nostalgic. It's cheesy as hell, not really something that a 43 year old would watch. But I don't know, it just got me. So yeah, today I just feel really lost without everyone from One Tree Hill in my life.

So I'm going to Google what to what to next, really, around that era. Someone told me to watch Gossip Girl, but I feel like that's a bit too new. But maybe it's not. Oh, also the song, the theme tune. by Gavin de Graw, I think his name is. I don't want to be anything other than what I've been trying to be lately. That's not my kind of music at all, but I love that tune now. It's been in my head every single day.

Anyway, it's going to be stuck in your head now. Bye. Wow. Oh my God. I love when ListenBitch does that. It's like we were just in the same place as the listener and we joined at the same time. And yeah, Gavin Degroar. I would never have remembered that.

And I never would have remembered the theme tune because guess what? I wasn't a One Tree Hill chick. No, you know what? And neither was I. And when Jade just said, you know, when she was like the hair, the clothes, I was like, cool, Jade, not for me.

I was more OC when it came to like the clothes and the aesthetic. But what I liked about One Tree Hill was the narrative. The deep, deep narrative of the two brothers, one's a jerk. And then Chad Michael Murray was like, the poor woman's son. I guess it's like there's a rich dad and he had a baby with his rich wife

and then maybe he had an affair and then that's the boy from the other side of the tracks and then they go to the same school. That's what happens. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, it's deep. One's got blonde hair, one's got brown just in case you don't understand

that one's rich and one's the other side of the tracks. Really would have loved to be in that design meeting. They're like, listen, guys, it's going to be groundbreaking. One will be brunette. be flound and people will understand. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, just for me, those theme tunes are

embedded. They are embedded in your brain and your body forever. I mean, as I did all that throwing, what I would say is if you're looking to find something of that era, I agree. I think Gossip Girl is a little bit of another era. It's a great era. It's another era that I was part of and still

throwing away to Gossip Girl. But things had changed. Things had changed then. I would do Dawson's Creek from the beginning, if I was you. A hondo P. Right? It was well written. Dawson's Green is well written.

It's fantastically written. Brilliantly acted. Everyone just in their absolute lane, I felt, in terms of the characters. Oh my God. Just. Joey? Joey. How I was a Joey inside and longed to be a Jen.

I just longed to have that sexually promiscuous reputation following. me. Yeah, because she'd been in New York. Yeah, she was a New York girl and then went home, had a like a cup of tea with her grandma. Yeah, brilliant. I would do Dawson's Creek. But then, again, if we only could pick from a pool of British ones, what would you be picking? Would you be sending this listener to Biker Grove?

No. Because listen, we are a nation known for our bards. We are a nation known for our bards, okay? Our poets are playwrights. And yet there is one. phrase from Biker Grove. That is etched on my mind like a piece of Shakespeare. What is it?

Is it said by either PJ or Duncan? Jeff, he can't see, man. Oh my gosh. No, this is upsetting. This is PJ going blind, right? That was a deep storyline. I never paintballed ever. Is that how he goes blind in a terrible paintballing tragedy?

Oh, my God. Don't you remember? Oh, my God. They were just fucking with us by then. Jesus. It could have been something written by one of the greats. We don't talk enough about that performance. No, we don't.

We really don't. It's all, Anne and deck this and Anne and deck that. But really, PJ going blind after said terrible paintballing tragedy, was something that Aunt McParlane had to really, you know, embody and give us. He can't see. Say the line again. Jeff, he can of see him, ma. It's not funny.

But Jesus, you just took me back. It's the impact. So I think if you want to go to a British, it'd like a British landscape and learn something new about our own culture over here, go to Biker Grove. Okay, riddle me this, Zowie. Which you classify fresh meat, the fucking genre-defining, groundbreaking,

I suppose university show that Zawi was a huge star in and I see I used to watch Fresh Meets to go to sleep like I just loved it it was comforting and funny

funny as far well written as well good writers did you feel like you were stepping into something that had the had reminiscent of these sort of brilliant British

teen TV dramas or at least young people people. Do you know what? Yes, actually I did and I think we all did because it felt like the last thing that had been on TV that explored the UK college, the university experience, not the high school experience. High school, what am I American? Like secondary school and you couldn't even find that many shows in the UK to live vicariously through. And the last one I think had been the young ones, the Rickmail. And so we were like, oh, we're like the up-to-date young ones. That's a really deep cut for anyone who's listening.

But I do, yeah, it was like a second studentdom, definitely. Who wrote is it, Jack Thorne? No, it was Sam Bain and Jesse Armstrong. Jesse Armstrong of Succession. Of Succession. And you know that's so weird is there are some lines in succession that weirdly have throwbacks to fresh meat. Like there's a lot of fresh meat coding in succession.

And if someone wants to do that podcast, they can just do that podcast, please. Send me those notes. There's a lot of fresh meat in succession. I never realized it was Jesse Armstrong and Sam Bain that wrote fresh meat. God, what great hands you were in. We were in great hands. We were all in our 20s by then. So had a nostalgic view of that teenage time.

And there was something really special about being able to just reopen all of those wounds, all of those insecurities, but with the perspective that you had on those characters. Do you know what I mean? Like the way Jordan Catterson. Tolano just leaned against things. Yes, totally. His lean. Totally.

His lean. Like, I was like, oh, with Vod, like, her thing is like, she could never sit on chairs properly, how you're supposed to sit on chairs, which is such a teenage thing. When you go back to like every teenage house party in your mind, you're like, there's always that person who never sat properly on a chair for some reason. That's good shit. I would do fresh meat again. It's you.

It's Jack Whitehall. It's that brilliant blonde actress. what she called a Welsh... Kimberly Nixon. Kimberly Nixon. Yeah. Yeah, good times. We need to bring it back.

I think we do need to... I don't know why there hasn't been a reunion. Yeah. I think you and Simon should go back and do a vintage pop world and throw to a reunion of fresh meat. Something's unfinished here. Something is deeply unfinished here. Don't push me, Zowie.

I will write that up. I will make a deck. Oh, my gosh. I might need a breather. I need to go to the water fountain. I need to smoke behind the bike chairs for a second. Yeah. I need to go to the bleachers and fix my choker.

Join me, Joanna Page, and my on-screen husband. That's me, Matthew Horn. For our brand new podcast, Table for Four. Each week we'll be joined by celebrity duos for a chat and a slap-up meal. And we've got some amazing. guests coming up including Gary Barlow and Ollie Smith, Arlene Phillips and Bradley Richards, Matt Edmondson and Molly King, the town's ends. We'll be chatting about food, relationships and everything in between. So make sure you subscribe to Table for Four wherever you get your podcasts.

Welcome back to this giant leap down memory lane. Like, come on. We're not struggling. Should we just quickly sing the Dawson's Creek theme tune together? Yes, please. Okay. Yes, please. In honour of James. One, two, three. I don't want to wait for run away to be over over.

I want to know and now will it be. I mean, who is she? What is that song called? Wow. It changed lives. It's changed lives. I think it's actually my internal alarm clock. Do you know what?

Weirdly, I was doing like posting of my birthday. party, you know, whatever, over the week. And then I was like, oh, I've got to put up something for the listen bitch questions. And I thought, I'll do the Dawson's Creek theme tune. So having all my pictures of my friends and my birthday and then, I don't want to wait for our lives to me over. I was suddenly like, oh, this sort of marries quite well together. It's like, oh, God, yes, my friendships.

And that song just still hits. It's the best one. It's the best. It's the best theme. Let's have a final question. Let's have a final question. Hello, this is Mickey from Brussels, Belgium. I was excited when I heard that the theme for this week was teen drama

because I have very strong feelings about this. When I was 17, I had cancer and I was for a few months in a sterile room. And I would religiously watch Gilmore Girls. I was vicariously living through their lives. It also taught me English. People would call me. I was literally in a sterile room. I had nowhere to go.

and I would just not answer the phone if Gilmore Girls was on because that time was before streaming. So you just had to be in front of your TV. Now, even today, when I'm depressed, I will watch TV dramas until I feel better. I've just accepted that it's a coping mechanism. But I guess my question is whether teen drama that you feel raised you. I love the podcast. I love you both. Thank you, darling. Thank you for that.

I feel really emotional after that question. Taking that comfort at that time in your life when you're going through something like that, it's important that we know where we can find that warmth, right? And that feeling of sort of safety. I never really had a Gilmore girl's time. I never paraded with them, but I did fancy Milo Ventimilomily. What I hear her saying is, The characters, storylines, the comfort blankets that those shows provided actually went deeper than we realize. Or we'll ever know.

Or we'll ever know. And there is something about adolescence on screen and unpacking every nuance and high and low of that time on screen that I do think. has some power. I don't know necessarily what I mean, but... No, well, I mean, this is how things raise you because they're powerful and they stay in your heart and I think I learned lessons. I learned so much about what I wanted, who I wanted to be,

how I wanted to be, how I wanted to relate to people. I think when Josh Schwartz was writing Dawson's Creek and it came out, I remember exactly where I lived. Me and Mom were living in Halston and I just got a TV in my room. My mom had just got me cable in my room. but obviously Dawson's group is on Channel 4. Yeah. My bad.

Josh Schwartz is the OC. The original OG is Kevin Williamson. Oh, yeah. And I remember thinking, oh my God, I'm interested in the way they're speaking to each other. It feels like a little bit silly. If you think about the way Joey and Dawson would interact. It was like a bit like, you know, your conspiracy theory is flawed. Like they would speak a bit like that.

But actually, I wanted them to use big words. that I hadn't heard of and used them in ways I hadn't. I think I learned a lot about dialogue from Dawson's Creek and character building. And I love that you would suddenly start to really care about the parents, like his mother, when Dawson's mum start, they have a divorce and she has an affair, I think. And her sexuality sort of comes back. And I was suddenly really, and that's what they did very well in my so-called life as well. When the parents are brought in well, which is something they, like, didn't do on something

like skins. that was all about the kids. But in Dawson's Creek and Myselfold Life, the parents' storylines became just as important and it gave it real depth and it gave it real nuance into how families work. Everyone within these setups

is going through their own thing. Even like when Pacey's sleeping with his teacher, great storyline. Oh, I've completely forgot about that. What a storyline. And you learn about this woman in her late 30s. She might even be 40. And what she needs and what she's been through,

she's not just a blank character so that he can sleep with his teacher. We learned about why she's sleeping with him. It was a really interesting storyline. And of course, a 15-year-old student and a teacher in the late 30s having an affair is deeply problematic. But it was really interesting for them to dissect why said affair may have happened in the first place. Yeah. And you're right. And then watching those moments.

moments unfold or watching those kind of groundbreaking kind of emotional landscapes unfold whilst going through whatever you're going through. Like what I hear you saying is like, oh, there was this period of transition where these shows kind of entered into my psyche in an even deeper way. And what I hear the listener saying is she was at a very difficult time in her life. And somehow the shows or the, you know, like what you're saying, those characters just end up being this comforting place for you and all those questions that were coming up about your own identity or like being bullied, you know, I remember being bullied and watching these shows and

yeah, it just made you feel slightly less alone when you saw their angst kind of just put on the screen and put through the lens of art. So it wasn't like, it circumvented your intellect, didn't it? You had these emotional relationships to these characters. So it was, was just easy to start to feel your way, maybe through emotions that were a little bit harder to process in your own life. They were really big. Teen drama and adolescents is effing massive. It's so big. I don't think it gets enough respect. I don't think teenagers get enough respect. I think we need to start respecting the hell out of our young people. I think we need to center them. We need to create huge circles of love around them. I agree. This incredibly formative.

time in all of our lives. Like, that's why we're so lucky that we have these theme tunes to like take us straight back there. Straight back. And I wonder what young people have now. Wonder what their Dawson's Creek is now. What's their Dawson's Creek? Heartstopper?

Sex Education. Oh, yes. Yes. Heartstopper, sex education. You're so right. But they all have technology. We were watching in the pre-technology times. Dawson and Joey just had their feet in that bayou or whatever it was.

Just sitting on the duck of the bay Watching the tide All they had was dialogue All they had was dialogue And of course Dawson's obsession With some Spielberg films How 90s of him And a special

You know Appreciation for James Vanderbeak Who sadly lost his life And I think it probably made everyone That grew up with Dawson's creatures feel that It was very painful To feel him go

And leave Because that show did give so many people so much and he's such a, it's sort of weirdly embedded as Dawson in so many of our lives for forever. I'm happy that, um, forever. Happy that Dawson's Creek was so loved by so many. And that was really cemented today. I bloody loved that theme, Zowley. I think it's the best theme. I think we're ending on the best theme. I'm trying, I'm going through some of the other themes in my head. And this was the one. It had everything. Yeah, it did have everything. It really did. We got to

party, we got to cry, we got to look back, my favorite kind of theme. We're going to have a theme for the return of Jordan Stevens from his pilgrimage, spiritual pilgrimage, around the world. I don't know what he's up to. We are going to do the theme for next week's Lizzie Bitch is coffee. It's deep. It's actually very deep coffee. You and Jordan will make it very, very, very, very deep.

I thought about Jordan today and what he means to young people and the way that he's using his voice. And I'm just so, I'm really glad he exists. And I'm really glad that you two have a friendship. And interestingly, I have orbited both of you for a very long time. Yeah. But now I feel like I'm getting to know you. Like, weirdly enough, you both invited me to your birthday parties.

And once upon a time, I would have had, like, like too much social anxiety to go, I would have been like, oh, who will I talk to? Who do I know? And now it's like this beautifully vulnerable thing to be able to do to just show up and be like, I'm at your party and I don't know you that well, but I want to know you. And I think everything you're putting out into the world is just so brilliant and I want to be close to it and I want to celebrate you. And that's like a little teen drama that plays out in my head in itself. I'm like Little teen drama of its own, isn't it? The Zawi years.

Zawi journey. Zawai years. Oh, God, the Wondar years. Oh, fuck. That they're all flooding in. No, we've got to end. The voiceover. Oh, the voiceover.

The Joe Cocker theme tune. I cannot. Okay. Zawi Ashton, four episodes. What a woman. Thank you so much for being here and being open and funny and sweet and loving and introspective and just giving because it has been received. You have been received.

And we say thank you. We say thank you for Zahey Ashton. Oh my God. Thank you. I'm just always here as your sidepiece. Great. Seven o'clock on the dot. I'll be in my drop top.

Cruising the streets. Great to know because with Jordan, you just don't know where he'll go next. So that'd be great. We may call upon you quite soon. But I love you and I will see you in real life. really soon. 100%.

Thank you, sweetie. Thanks for listening to Miss Me. This is a Persefonica production for BBC Sounds. Hello, I'm Tyler West. And I'm Alfie Watts. And this is The Detour, the official companion podcast

to race across the world. This is the post-episode checkpoint where you'll hear the latest chat around each episode from us and our race superfan special guests. Plus, I'll be joined each week by a resident travel expert, Alfie. That's you, man.

I'll be revealing my optimal way to travel through each leg, including visits to all of those unmissable detours along the way. And we'll also have some not seen anywhere else exclusive content at the end of every episode, I cannot wait. The detour will land straight after each episode of Race Across the World. You can watch on EyePlayer or Listen on Sounds, where you'll also find extra bonus content. We'll see you then.

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