Miss Me? - Listen Bitch! The Fear

Episode Date: December 9, 2024

Lily Allen and Kiell Smith-Bynoe answer your questions about fear.Next week, we want to hear your questions about THERAPY. Please send us a voice note on WhatsApp: [phone]. Or, if you like, send us an email: [e-mail] episode contains very strong language and adult themes. Credits: Producer: Flossie Barratt Technical Producer: Will Gibson Smith Production Coordinator: Hannah Bennett Executive Producers: Dino Sofos and Ellie Clifford Assistant Commissioner for BBC: Lorraine Okuefuna Commissioning Editor for BBC: Dylan Haskins Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. This episode of Miss Me contains strong language and adult themes. Hi and welcome to Listen Bitch. I am Daley Allen and I'm joined by Kyle Smith-Bino. Thank you so much for coming in today. Yes, I promised I would. Yes you did. You said you'd do it anytime. Yeah I did say that actually. So here you are. Yeah. Called in that favour real quick. We're going to talk about fear today. I'm scared. Are you? Yeah, that's fitting because you were in a TV series

called ghosts. Ghosts are scary. People are scared of ghosts. Yeah, I'd love to meet a ghost actually since from the subject. Would you? Yeah, I'd love just a confirmation of the afterlife. Would you? Yeah, I'd love just a confirmation of the afterlife. Hmm. Why? Does that make you feel like safe that you're going somewhere after this?

Just to know that there is something. It doesn't just stop. For yourself, because you don't, even if you got confirmation of a ghost, you wouldn't necessarily have confirmation that you would turn into a ghost. It might not be for everyone. It's a privilege. It's not for me that actually. turn into a ghost. It might not be for everyone. It's a privilege. It's not for me that actually. It's a privilege. Don't think I fancy it. I've got ghost privileges. Yeah, true. But I'd like to know that there is a possibility. Yeah, I get that. Yeah.

Should we have our first question? Please. Let's do it. Hi, Lillian Makita. It's Ellie from Cornwall. Although I grew up in West London in 1983, that's when I was born. So all of your cultural references are so nostalgic. I absolutely love the podcast and so do all my friends. So my question is around, do you have any completely irrational phobias? And how do you respond when in the face of those phobias? So for example one of my, just one of my irrational phobias is spiders and I mean in the past if I am in a room with a spider I will literally be like screaming on my own for hours and hours until someone literally comes and rescues me or if

there's one in my room I mean I literally behave like there's some kind of volcanic eruption about to school me alive. Like it's really over the top, it's really dramatic, but I can't help it. It's like a visceral terror that just sweeps through my body and I just get paralyzed. So what are some irrational phobias that you have and how do you behave when you are faced with your biggest fears?

Hmm. Well, I don't think I do have any irrational fears. I think all the very few fears I have, I believe to be very rational. Yeah. Which are? Which are top of my head, first one, playing falling out of the sky into the sea. That's that's that is scary thought, yeah. And I think that's perfectly rational. But I don't really, I can't say I've got any phobias. I mean, I hate mice and rats.

But... That's not irrational. Yeah, and it's not really a phobia. I just hate them. So... Irrational. Thank you so much for saying that. I don't.

I don't. I don't. And um, yeah, I think that's about it. I don't really do phobias. I don't do phobias, mate. I don't do phobias, mate. Not for me, that. Keep them.

All right, Greg Wallace. My phobias, irrational phobias, are middle-class women of a certain age. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. My phobias, irrational phobias are middle class women of a certain age. What is my irrational fears? I don't like impact. I guess it's like, it's not really a fear of heights, but it's like, yeah, like falling and like smashing, banging against something. I met Jennifer Saunders the other day because we were doing a film together up north. And Jennifer used to be in a comedy gang with my dad back in the day. And they used to, the guy that wrote and directed most of the stuff for this company they had called Comic Strip, was this guy called Peter Richardson.

I haven't seen Peter Richardson since I was about five years old, but I really remember his daughter Alice when I was little. She was bigger than me. She was, you know, I don't know how much bigger, but anyway. Jennifer was talking about Peter Richardson and I was like, oh don't know how much bigger but anyway. Jennifer was talking about Peter Richardson and I was like, oh my god, how's his daughter Alice? She was like, Alice. I said, I have this really funny memory. Like one of my first memories was Alice having an accident. She sleptwalked out of a window on the second floor of their house and knocked her all her front teeth out. And I just really

remember her with like no teeth. And I think this like very early memory of this bigger girl that I, you know, admired falling out of a window in her sleep and that happening to her mouth. I don't know. It's just like imprinted on my brain. Like I can't, anyway, I said to her, how's her teeth to Jennifer Saunders? She's like, oh my God, her teeth, yeah, I remember her falling out of the window. I was like, yeah, funny, like 40 years,

like, I don't know, 38 years later. Oh my gosh, that is horrible to think about. Sleepwalking out of a second story window. You've got to sleep on the first floor if you're a sleepwalker. Right, Marnie, my youngest one is a sleepwalker. Oh really? But I mean, I guess then the fear is

that they will walk out the front door in the middle of the night, if you're on the first floor. Yeah, that's the rational fear. There's no good part of sleepwalking. It's quite funny to watch. Right. As long as the person's not having an accident, you know. Oh dear. I'm still thinking about the teeth.

Shall we have another question? Yes, please. Hi, Lily and Cael. This is Louise in Lottowork in the Midlands. I'm from Cork in Ireland actually, but I've been living here for nearly three years. On the subject of fear, I'm someone who suffers with an anxiety disorder and anxiety has kind of been a very central point in my life, I feel like for my whole life. And I feel like fear and anxiety has helped me back from doing things that I really wanted to do in my life.

And I was wondering, is there anything in your life that stands out where you let fear take over you wanting to do something? Thanks. First of all, what a lovely accent. Um, yes, like fear of failure, I think think stops me from doing things. What does it stop you from doing? I feel like you've done everything. I'm really scared of writing music at the moment. Right.

And I think it is the fear of failure. Is that because of the gap? In having released music? No, I don't think so. I think I'm slightly traumatized by the last album that I put out because I really did feel like it was my best work and it should have been a lot more commercially successful. I know that sounds really entitled and it is kind of entitled.

But also it's sort of like tied up in, yeah, ego. And also just like the reality of being able to support oneself with music now. It's really hard, you know? Yeah, it's a scary prospect. Do you still have the same passion that you did? Yeah, I do. But there's some kind of blockage.

I don't know, I think it's like fear of the truth. I'm listening. fear of the truth. I'm listening. Well, I think that like, you know, if I, I only really want to tell the truth. And I think that if I really go there, then I have to like, really reveal some stuff and I don't, I'm scared of doing that. Right. And then I can't bear the idea of doing that and then putting it out and no one noticing. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's because I'm like a greedy narcissist.

No, but it's like it's human nature. You don't want to be vulnerable. You don't want to like, you've been vulnerable before, but you don't want to be vulnerable on like a small scale. You don't want to be vulnerable on like a small scale. Yeah, fuck that. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. And actually that's really true and very well observed because if there were four people sat at this table that I'm sitting at now asking me to sing,

I would have a much bigger problem with that than if I was in a venue with 5,000 people. Far more. I need the stakes to be higher. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a saying, cake's not worth the candle. Right. And it's kind of that. It's within that category of like, is it worth me bearing all of this stuff when like, one, I might not get what I want from it But also the reward isn't big enough. Mm-hmm. If three people clap, you're sort of like, okay, great. Yeah Cheers

But I guess it shouldn't it should mean obviously it shouldn't be about that. It should be about just you know expressing yourself freely and but you know somehow along the way in 20 years of doing freely and but you know somehow along the way in 20 years of doing this I've managed to you know let my ego get tied up in it all and over complicate things so yeah fear of failure it's a fucker hmm what about you I don't know um man's not scared I think I think I just do everything that I like. I try everything that I want to try. And sometimes it doesn't work and I just go, I'll make it work next time.

I think that's one thing that I got from my mum that I was like never scared to try things because she was very supportive of that. Despite the fact that like, she didn't necessarily want me to, she didn't want me to go to Brit school. She didn't want me to like do any of those things until I got my A levels and that sort of stuff in case it didn't work out. She always wanted me to have a safety net. I never really believed in that because I was just like, this is all I want

to do. All I want to do is act and perform. But, um, outside of that and performing, I don't really think there is, I think I'm just sort of like, I go for it and if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. But I can't say that there is. I think I'm just sort of like, I go for it and if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. But I can't say that there is something that has stopped me from doing what I wanna do. I do suffer from death anxiety. Well, I have in my life suffered from death anxiety and doing more research on it and chats with therapists.

Find out that it's like existential dread. Yeah. And that's something that I couldn't understand until I really researched it. And I've spoken about it before, I've spoken about it on films to be buried with, but I don't think I've ever experienced crippling fear in terms of I can't do it because of X.

I just go for it anyway so you like stakes as well then yeah yeah yeah I hear that thank you for your honesty and thank you for the question but we're gonna move on to the next one hi there hi I love your podcast my name is Natalie I'm calling from Faden Boys in Essex at the end of the central line. Fear. When I was about 13, I watched an old film with David Sow in it called Salem's Lot and it shit the fuck out of me. And I still can't bear to watch anything like it again.

What film scares you I used to wake up in Thedam boys really because my drama school was in Latin and then there were another two stops and I'd always wake up, I'd fall asleep on the central line and wake up two stops after my, always when I got to Thedam, what? So that's all I know of it. But that doesn't answer the question at all.

Lily. Films that terrified me, Candyman. That film fucking freaked me the fuck out. Shit the fuck out of you. Shit the fuck out of me when I was a kid, but my older sister made me watch it with her. And I must have been much younger than my youngest is now. I think I was probably like eight, seven or eight.

And I really remember my sister being like, me going like, I don't wanna watch it, I don't wanna watch it, I wanna go to bed. And her being like, if you don't watch it till the end, you'll be even more scared. And it was just fucking terrifying. And I think I had to basically sleep in my mom's bed for about a year afterwards.

Yeah, so that film, Candyman. I remember watching Skeleton Key and the ending is when one of the people in the house end up getting trapped inside the body of an old man and he's like in a wheelchair and mute and can only communicate with like blinks. And then someone was like trapped inside. And it was like, I forgot, I'd completely forgotten about it.

And it scared me so much when I was like 12 or something like that, completely forgot about it. And then was reminded of it when I watched Get Out. Because it's basically that. When the person's like trapped within the body, their soul's trapped or whatever. And I said, Oh yeah, remember Skalienki? So that really scared me. Yeah. Should we have our next question? Yeah. Hi, Rikisa. Hi, Lily. My name is Jasmine and I'm from Shropshire.

I'm currently in Sydney, Australia at the moment, but I've actually just recently found your podcast and oh my gosh, I've been obsessed with it ever since. I literally just love you both and I just think you guys are smashing it. So yeah. So regarding fear, I have never in my life had a fear of anything really. But since I've gotten older, so I'm 29 at the moment, I have just had this sudden fear of heights come out of nowhere, like literally come out of nowhere. And I literally mean like, I have everything like I will be on the top of an escalator

and I'll start to shit myself. I like start to shake. It's like horrific. I don't know where this has come from. Why this has happened. Yeah. So my question basically is, has any of you gained a fear out of nowhere before of something and if so, what was it? Because I'm just so curious to know if this is happening with everyone or if it's just me. But yeah, thank you so much. That is quite relatable because you just get older and more aware of your surroundings and how everything could be dangerous. Yeah, because children are fearless, right? And then you become more and more aware of your mortality I guess, right? I have developed a fear in adult, my adult life of men in hats. Baseball caps are okay and a beanie might be okay if it's like weather appropriate, but any other kind of hat is on a man is, and gives me like the fear.

Trollby? No. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha What do you mean? I said you don't want it to like you'll see someone in and you're like, I can't look at it. I just allergic to it. It's like, you're just telling me that like you have a personality defect and you're trying to like make up for it with a hat and it really It makes me feel very unsafe What if they're conscious about their hair? I don't care. It shouldn't be I Remember you say that you don't want a man to think about what he's wearing for more than two minutes. Yeah

And I think about that all the time when I'm spending 25 minutes deciding what I'm gonna wear. I'm glad I've left such a lasting impression. I think, yeah, I think, you know, I want my men to be like self-assured. I'm sorry, that's like, you know, just one of the things that I like. And I think, I feel like if he's worried about what he's wearing or what he looks like, then can't keep me safe.

But also sometimes you could look like shit. I don't really care about that. Wow. Yeah. That's layered. Is it? Yeah. Well, it's the opposite of shallow.

Yeah, it is. It's deep. shallow. Yeah it is. It's deep. Yeah. Men in hats. You're allowed. Free pass. But hard hat. Still looks a bit silly. But... Visor?

Is that for safety? It's practical, I guess. It's for safety of the eyes. Yeah, not the same thing. No, definitely not. Like a man in a visor. There's a head poking out as well unless he's a golfer like no or tennis player yeah and even then I used to wear a visor do you remember Zgud? yeah the brand I had a black and yellow one

and I used to wear that and then at one stage I don't know what I saw, what music video I saw, but then I started wearing it upside down. Oh no. I think I saw Nelly do it or something. I couldn't handle that. We are going to take five for a break. Well, maybe not five. I'm not quite sure. It might be different in different regions, but we're going to take a number of minutes for a break.

Enjoy your break. I'll see you in a couple... some minutes. Welcome back! We are out of the break and back into the show we are discussing fear. F-E-A-R, fear. Hi Lillian and Meketa. My name is Dasha and I'm originally from Russia but I've been living in London for the last 16 years. And I just want to say that I absolutely love your podcast. I had a question of fear of being alone. I am 30 and recently divorced.

I'm living on my own without any family here and just every now and then I get the fear of just never finding anyone and being alone for the rest of my life. Just getting a little panic attack now. I guess my question is, have you ever had that fear and how did you deal with it if you did? Thanks so much, bye.

That is tough. I'm an only child who wasn't allowed out a lot. So I had FOMO, which is not the same thing at all because my friends were maybe a few roads away or maximum a few miles away. I've never been in a position where I'm sort of felt alone in a big old city. And obviously having to deal with a divorce at 30 is tough.

I think though, that you can trust in what you've done before. That's all, this is also my advice for you. That you can, in what you've done before. That's, that's all this is also my advice for you that you can you as in Lily, okay, that you can trust in your previous actions. And you have tried before and succeeded. And I think obviously this this Dasha has been living here for 16 years 16 years. Yeah. So she's made friends before, she's managed to find a partner

and she's found love before and she's done all those things. So she can do it again, it's possible, it's within her. And the same can happen with friends. She can find, she can make friends, she can do those things because she would have done it before, I assume. Yeah.

But I think, yeah, trusting in your former self, I think is maybe helpful. And also trusting that the universe has got a plan for you. And also maybe not believing in the idea that somebody else completes you, you know? Yeah. That you can complete yourself and, you know,

a partner could be like the cherry on top, you're the cake. So, you know, focus on the cake. Yeah. I don't think I will ever get over my FOMO. And I've sort of just accepted that and that is based on childhood that is just like how it's been and it's because like as I've done more work and thought back and Imagine like what my mom was going through at a certain time. I go. Oh, okay. All of these things make sense The reason she treated me like that was because she had brothers that she had to look after and then they went off the

rails. So then she had her own kids and she was like, my son is not gonna be like my brothers. Right. But then put extra pressure on me to be a good boy. Yeah. Yeah. But also, like, didn't allow me to do things and like, kept me in the house or kept me like, I had to be home at a certain time, which was much earlier than my friends and all those things. So the phoma that I experienced from that, I still have now, which is why I go to everything.

Yeah, but do you think that, you know, you have turned out a good boy, right? Like do you think that it worked, her methodology? Definitely. Yeah, kept you on the straight and narrow. Yeah, I mean, I think there could have been more of a middle ground, but you know, I've never had any problems with the law,

apart from fair evasion, but that doesn't count. But aside from that, you know, like, yeah, I'd say I've grown up to be a decent lead. And yeah, I don't think I will ever get over that FOMO. But that's just a thing that I've sort of accepted and gone. Well, that's part of my personality now. I don't want to miss things. So I go to everything for events one night. I'll be there. All of them. Oh my god could never be me so exhausting that idea. Yeah, I'm absolutely terrified of abandonment. And I don't know if

it's necessarily a fear of being alone. It's a fear of rejection. And I do put all of my eggs in one basket. And you know, it's not necessarily served me very well but yeah fear of abandonment is a big theme in my life. I sort of, most of my decision-making is informed by that fear. So I'm always acting and responding from that place it's so deeply ingrained in me. So yeah, you and me, Dasha. I also have divorced around 30, I think. Maybe I was a little bit older. Gets better. Next question, please. Hi, both. It's Jenny from Cambridge. I have a question for your episode on fear. Now,

Lily, your song, The Fear, for years and years, the line where it says, I look at the sun and I look in the mirror, and then I can do the whole thing, but you don't need me to sing it to you. Are you talking about the physical sun and the physical mirror, or are you talking about the newspapers? I don't think you're talking about the newspapers

because I can't imagine you love them. But I remember like when that song came out I was in my early teens and I thought about that line like way too much I was like but what does she mean? And it's it's still ghosting in my head every time I listen to the song. So I'd love to know what you meant. It's both, you know, it's a double meaning. It, you know, was referencing the Sun newspaper and the Mirror. Double entendre. A double entendre. Well, you think it's only Jay-Z that could do that shit? Yeah. Damn straight. Yeah, you know, I think that song is all about, well, it was sort of about, yeah, you know, the internet in its infancy

and, you know, the cult of celebrity and, you know, comparing yourself to, you know, what you see in the world and culture, I guess. And, you know, what you see reflected in the mainstream media as being a reference point for, you how well you're doing in life no matter who you are you know and yeah that's I think the lyric is like you know I look at the Sun and I look at the mirror I'm on the right track yeah I'm on to a winner bars yeah it's good song that. Well done me. Have you ever written a seminal classic hit like The Fear?

Have you never heard Junior Spash? No. Okay, well don't look for it. Let's have our next question. Hi there, this is Ali in Salisbury in Wiltshire and I am sending you a question about fear. My question is, if you're really scared to do something like a big event or a public speaking engagement or anything that's stressing you out, what are your techniques for calming down and preparing?

Do you have any tricks or tips you can share? Absolutely loving the podcast. Thank you so much. Really enjoyed it so far. And yeah, look forward to hearing your answers. Two words, beta blockers for big events. That's one thing that terrifies me. Red carpets, public speaking. I don't have to take them for the podcast, but yeah, I do that. I'm not very good. I you know back in my non sober days I would drink

to take the edge off so there you go mood altering substances I wish I had a an answer that could sort of balance that but I don't because the truth is I love all that I love all stuff like that. I think that is my comfort zone, just sort of right. Really? Yeah. I've realized recently that my favourite thing to do ever at the moment is a live podcast. Not my own, but the pressure is so low. You just turn up and you chat.

And sometimes occasionally you might be funny and occasionally you might not. And sometimes, yeah. Yeah, interesting. So the live element is something that gets you going. Yeah, because there's an audience there and you can sort of interact with them. So it's not just for, I feel, I find this.

So I did a live podcast last night. Okay, it was much better than this. And this is more pressure than that. Oh, I'm sorry. But I don't see it as a negative thing. I feel like you're really pressure than that. Oh, I'm sorry. But I don't see it as a negative thing. I feel like you're really great like that. You're so good at compartmentalizing things and drawing out and seeing the bigger picture.

And you always have a good little motto. That's therapy. To help you cope with different circumstances. It's very inspiring. Very inspiring. Thank you. What was the question? Advise. I yeah, I wish I think find what you like in it.

Find one, even if there's only one part, even if it's the dressing up, even if it's the catching up with with one person at that place, just find the thing that you like and lean into that. I imagine that there's something in every, whether it's a big event, whether it's public speaking, whatever it is, I imagine that there's something within that that you enjoy.

And even if it's not about the thing, even if it's like getting to put on your favorite shoes, like find the thing that you like and really lean into that part of it. And eventually it might become the whole thing. I think that's very sound advice. Kael, thank you so much for coming on the Listen Bitch and I will take you up on your offer of any time.

I'll be there. Any time that I need you again. Yeah, right. Kael, would you like to pick a subject matter for next week? A subject matter for next week? Okay I can think of a one word theme and since we were on that subject I think the subject should be therapy. Yeah you can send your voice notes to our WhatsApp Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooo ooooooooo ooooo o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o Thanks for listening to Miss Me with Lily Allen and Makita Oliver. This is a Persephoneca production for BBC Sounds. In Northern Ireland, from the late 70s to the early 90s, the IRA killed over 40 alleged

informers, men and women accused of passing information to the police and the British Army. But the man who often found, tortured, and sometimes killed these people on behalf of the IRA was himself an informer, a secret British Army agent with the code name Steakknife. These were British agents. I had to find other agents. Just how was one man allowed to lead a double life for so long?

It's not like James Bond. It's not a black and white situation. When lies are still being told to this day, who do you believe? I wouldn't even know where to start, and I'm with the IRA. Stake Knife. Listen now on BBC Sounds.