Miss Me? - Listen Bitch! The Root of it All

Episode Date: December 8, 2025

Miquita Oliver and Jordan Stephens answer your questions about hair.Next week, we want to hear your questions about Christmas Expectations. Please send us a voice note on WhatsApp: [phone]. Or, if you like, send us an email: [e-mail] episode contains very strong language and adult themes. Credits: Producer: Natalie Jamieson Technical Producer: Will Gibson Smith Assistant Producer: Caillin McDaid Production Coordinator: Rose Wilcox Executive Producer: Dino Sofos Commissioning Producer for BBC: Jake Williams Commissioners: Dylan Haskins & Lorraine Okuefuna Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

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that we would have peaked fucking ages ago. I thought maybe end of 2024 would have been off week. But both Jordan and I have had messages from people that we love saying that they love last week's Listen Bitch Anger. But my friend Hassan and Seb's boyfriend text me and said it was in his Mount Rushmore of Miss Me episodes. I was like, fucking hell! That's really cool.

It must be good. Yeah. I was so drained from it that I haven't listened to it. I don't think you have to. You experienced it, I guess. Yes, I did. People have specifically mentioned that bit of vulnerability from you and from, well, I guess both of us in the acknowledging of like how complex it is processing,

like feelings towards our parents. It's hard. I just remember it was of quite a journey because I really didn't think I had anger. And by the end, I was like, okay then. We all do. Yeah. We all do. It's a core emotion.

Exactly. Can I say one quick thing about that? Sure, vibes. There's one really interesting core emotion, which I find fascinating, which is disgust. Disgust. The practice is called AEDP. That's the form of therapy that I find fascinating. Accelerated experiential, dynamic psychotherapy.

And they recognise six core emotions. Fear, joy, sadness, anger, sexual excitement, which is very interesting and disgust. And I find disgust it really interesting because I don't think we ever think of it as an emotion because it can pass. You feel it and it passes. Repulsion's quite interesting.

I would do it for next week. Listen, bitch, but it's not very course it's been discussed. What, disgust? What makes you feel fucking disgusted? No. That's jokes. Is hair not on there? So hair's not a core emotion.

But I think what hair does is it bring... Hair's not a core emotion. It's very emotional, though. It's an emotion, exactly. It's a facilitator of all the above emotions that we just discussed. Exactly. The theme for this week's listen, bitch, is... Hair.

Let's have our first vlog. question. That's fucking good. Hi, Jordan and Makita. I'm Poppy. I live in Sydney, but I'm originally a Norwich gal. On that note, Jordan, my mum and brother, I went and saw you perform at Norwich and Norwich is notoriously terrible vibes, but they said it was one of the best gigs I've ever been to. Big props to you. So how important do you think hair is to like self-esteem, general image, where you feel at with yourself, because I think that hair is actually maybe the most important thing of all, because I went through a phase in which I bleached the shit out of my hair. It all ended up falling out, and I ended up having to have this kind of like mullity, short cut

after having like a mane of big curly hair forever, because it would be the first thing that people commented about me, oh, your hair is so amazing. So then when that was gone, it was like I had nothing. I think hair is like the most important thing. But yeah, what do you think? Be interested to know. Isn't it interesting when you have to make it not the most important thing? Like our friend Sasha has just gone through breast cancer and her hair was a hugely important part of the way she was seen.

She has like long black raven-like hair all the way down her back. And it all went. She now has a short, blonde crop. And it's the face of her survival, her new hair. And it's kind of powerful. And it's like, oh shit, Sasha, you look. bad like she looks great but also she's been through something and had to kind of figure out who she was without this huge part of herself it's so bloody big like i can't believe we're talking

about hair because i'm having a bad hair day and having a bad hair day for me taps back into very old things with hating my hair and being on screen a lot as a young person really fuck yeah god some of my biggest traumas is my pot world hair actually more t4 more t4 I think just on like a pragmatic level, it does shape your face. You really are interacting with your own face all the time. And so for a lot of people, the hair can be the make or break of your face. Absolutely. I had this like brief fascination with the idea of having a buzz cut.

I have cut my locks off. They're in the cupboard. So I got short hair. But I did think my reasoning behind the idea of a buzz was my fear of it. I've always feared that because I'm pretty confident. And actually after like experimenting with. with like flattening my hair, I'm now certain that it would not look good. Not look good or make you look a certain way?

Yeah, I guess it is subjective. I'd have to get used to it. But, you know, I've got like little sticky out ears. I'm not sure. I've never really seen my head shape because I've always had hair. I definitely wouldn't work to my strengths. And that's incredibly confronting. So I had this weird thing where I almost wanted to do it for that reason.

Right. Because that's kind of how my mind works. I'm like, fuck me being attached to my own beauty. like or whatever that is but then actually you know we do all other egos don't me so I mean it's it's yeah it's just for the record for my locks you know there are some deeper reasons which we can talk about but ultimately also just practically man it's just hard I mean you should know this now we can both bring locks in and these aren't locks these are flats okay fair but I am very attached to them yeah it was just the length

the weight and I was fighting my desire for utility in life my general want for comfort in life. I was battling that versus, you know, what it means, what they mean culturally, societally. So it was a tough one. Do people respond to you differently when you had dreads? A lot of people miss the locks. You missed the locks. Yeah, I do a bit. I do a bit, but you look great, but they were great. I don't know about respond differently. One thing I don't like is there's been a handful of people who have been like, you look better now. That pisses me off. I know that's weird for me to say that, but it's like I know what the locks meant to me too, because, you know, there is some sense of rebellion attached to them.

I will say, however, one of the reasons was that I don't think that the rebellion is as spiky or pointed as it would have been when my dad had locks, you know? Quite. 70s, 80s, 90s, that's seriously like, fuck you to the sister. That's punky. Yeah. Nowadays, I don't think it's got that punk edge anymore personally, certainly not in this country. Some people will still frown or look down.

Oh, I definitely think the establishment would still frown upon it, yes. Yeah, but they're on Love Island and shit, you know. But I do think, I still think, if I see a boy with dreads, I'm like, Yeah, yeah, it's hot. I get it. It's also very difficult to swim. I mean, Garfield has had dreads for a long, long, long time. And I imagine there are a lot of emotions running through those dreads.

Yeah, no, no, 100. I wrote a whole song about that, actually. I saw an Oprah once when I was a kid, and this woman was cutting off her really long hair, and she'd lost a brother and a husband, and her grief was in her hair. And they cut her hair off And it was the most emotional episode And then I remember my mum with her friend It might have even been Sandra

Said, that's like you and your pillow And my mum had this pillow That she'd been crying into Ever since Sean died And Sandra was like, you have to get rid of that pillow You can't sleep with that grief I think Sandra had to like steal it from her She couldn't let it go

Wow We do hold on to these things Our emotions live in so many things Yeah 100% And that was actually another reason was that a lot of people would tell me that, oh, you can't cut them off, you can't cut your locks off, like you regret it, you're in some connection to your ancestors,

that, you know, these kind of thing. And at first I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it, and, you know, I feel it and whatever. But then I got to the point where I was like, there are people in the world that I'd meet or see on telly who have locks, and I think they're pricks. You know? What ancestral fucking connection did they have?

Correct. As I said in previous episodes, I have three ex-boyfriends who were white with dreads. No, but I'm talking not just white, black, black, brown. I'm just, the whole thing of... Yeah, yeah. No, but I'm being real. Like, I just started to ask myself, like,

how have I internalised the idea that my hair is the connection between me and my fucking ancestors? It started to annoy me. Yes. It started to annoy me. I started to go, like, I have to believe I've got a deeper connection with all the spirits in the past

and my fucking locks. Like, that's crazy. What, for me, what locks show is commitment, care. There's many options of locks. They're incredibly like... Versatile. Yeah, versatile haircut. I mean, as it stands, I could put them back in.

There's no other haircut you could just put them back in. I could stitch them back into my hair. But yeah, it was that kind of... My whole thing was, I feel like I reserve the right to rebirth. I reserved that right. There's people in life who they will cut their hair to mark a new chapter. And suddenly I thought, why is it that only my culturally... specific hair it's seen as some kind of disrespect to regrow for regrowth like anything in life

like the plants around us like animals they break their shells and then they grow new ones like that whole process I'm allowed to have in my hair and you know obviously with locks I can even change my mind so anyway there we go I've said it that was those are the reason I think it can keep people quite locked in for sure okay let's have another question because I'm just I want to hear about you and you're well why you're so attached yeah but they'll come up they're coming Okay, cool. Next question. Hey, my name's Beth and I'm from Cardiff. Obviously, a huge fan of missed me, otherwise I wouldn't be sending you this voice note. My question about hair is, as you guys have got older, have you noticed anything different about your hair? So change in

texture, places you wouldn't normally find hair, colour. So yeah, keen to hear your thoughts. Thank you. I think your hair now is best ever. Yeah, of course. Thanks so much. I love my hair now, but not to death. No, including today, but explain why. I went back to a hairstyle that I had as a child after so much trauma. I was just thinking about when it changed, and I suppose it was, I had dreads. I had long, lovely, curly hair, like really lovely hair that, you know, the Caribbean Scottish mix did nicely. I wish I'd left it the fuck alone. Sure.

Sounds beautiful hair. But when I started going to squat parties, I got dreads. And then when I started going out, Jasper, and I went to see him in New York and everything was very glamorous. I was like, I can't have dreadlocks. So I cut them off, and then I got my first weave. And that was the beginning of the end, really. Wow. And then I was sort of getting rid of it.

And then when I got Pop Wild, they were like, can your hair be longer? And I was like, yeah, I could get a weave. And they were like, that would be great. And then Simon Amstall was straightening his Jewish curls. So actually, the first two years of Pop Wild, me and Simon were kind of closed in on who we actually were. I had this weave and he had it.

And then I took my weave out and he started letting his hair be curly. And I'm not joking. It's when Pop World really. got successful. It's like when we realized what the comedy was and what was funny because we were sort of free in ourselves. It was Dan Schweimer used to always say like,

it was when you guys changed your hair. That's when we went skyrocketed. But then, you know, that weave time was so traumatic for me during T4 and stuff. I was very conscious of the fact that I had wefts, which is when they sew in these wefts of hair into cane row platts on your head and it feels bumpy.

I was very conscious of it in intimate relationship. I had certain relationships where boys didn't know I had a weave. So can you imagine how much ducking and diving that is? Right. So that means you're in a relationship with a man never touching the top of your head. It's bizarre. I found it really hard.

I hated, hated, hated my weave. And I know a lot of girls who have beautiful weaves, but they're women that really know how to look after themselves. I do. But I'm quite raggo and I am quite quick. And then when I decided to sort my shit out about five years ago, it was weird I was getting a weave put in or something and my real hair Jordan was here

and the weave I was getting put in was here like my real hair was like down my back and then the weave I was getting was like a bob and I was like okay what is this actually about now because this is meant to be about having longer hair and it was like locked into something took it out and no started plaiting it started plaiting my weave into like five plats

then I was like let me do eight and then I suddenly remember my hairstyle from age 5 to 12 was lots of little plaits. And as a black girl, you can have a swinging ponytail and all that shit. And I suddenly was like, I'm going to take this weave out and I'm going to platt my hair into 50 plaits. And it looked like this. And I was like, oh my God, I'm back. You're back.

Not like, I'm back to being seven. I was like, I know who I am again. And I really was because everything changed after that. I think I had plaques at seven. That's like what you did as a little mixed-wise skin. I'm really fond of this hairstyle and it's deeper than that. I'm in love with this hairstyle because it reminded me the day that I got back to myself. Love that.

Beautiful. Beautiful. I can't even remember what the question was. Oh, yeah, no. It was to do with age. It was to do with age. It's like, have, you know, it's a change. And I think that is a remarkable change for you.

It's aligned to sides of your being and, you know, brought the old and the new. That's why it feels good. That's really cool. You were going to talk about. men's pressures and I think that is important because we are in a world now where hairlines for men the pressure is out of this world

which is something that did not exist when we was a kid What do you mean that didn't exist when we were a kid? I really have no recollection of boys caring about like men's hairlines just don't think they cared. I know a lot of men that went bald and lost all their hair at 25, 26 and it gives you this huge level of self-consciousness a premature fear of looking older

it's a really deep thing And when I have asked men about it, they don't seem like they're ever asked about it. And I think it's a really important conversation for men to feel they can have. Well, look, there's ways around it now and it's a huge industry. We really have put a lot of our sense of, yeah, self-well-being,

whatever, into the hairline. But my point, I guess, is like, it's discussed way more. It's used as an insult. Like, where's your hairline? I've heard used as an insult way more in the last six years than I ever had. when I was a child.

I don't remember looking at an, like, there's loads of insults I'd use for people as a teenager. I never, ever remember thinking a hairline would be something I could hurt someone with. And this is hairline as opposed to baldness. This is hairline. It's kind of the same because it's like your hairline is receding towards baldness.

Like that, that's essentially the same thing. God, see, that's what I mean. If someone brings you out about something like that, that shit stays with you. I think someone said something shitty about my weave a lot, but I remember the first time and it fucked me up about four, five years. It is. It's so deep when someone cusses that part of your appearance.

Yeah. I guess so. But like I said, I've not noticed it. I've not noticed it before. So are you worried about losing your hair and when it might happen? Well, I actually did get the corners of my hair done. What do you mean done? I got a transplant. No, you didn't? I did. Oh my God. No, you didn't.

I did. I did. Fuck off. That's incredible. I know. Right. And you were very pleased with the results. Basically, long story short, I've got a friend. who works in that industry and it was more preventative than anything. Like, I'd noticed my hair was receding slightly

but nothing crazy. But they just explained to me the process and I was like, that's kind of fascinating to me that it didn't feel the same as other surgeries in that it's ultimately just putting my own hair into my hair. Yeah, it's kind of like they fuck with the follicles. They take the back of your hair and put it in the front of your hair.

Cool. I could probably find that podcasts I'd done where you can see it growing. but I think the main point is I hadn't been established as a person with a recede in hairline or with whatever that wasn't a thing. There's people where it's public like Wayne Rooney or... Oh, I know

Wayne Rooney. No, no, but I'm saying that kid's, yeah, but he said it with Chess he doesn't like... Maybe he said it with Chess because he's been brought out by it since he was 18 which isn't easy. Yeah, sure. But a lot of... No, but I know but like I say, when I was a kid yet, I don't remember Wayne Rooney, I don't remember that being like

the main form of abuse towards Wayne Rooney was his airline. He probably he did get some, obviously he got it done. I remember it was like, people weren't kind to him about his appearance. I do remember that. Okay, on this, I'd love to ask you about Prince William. I'm really fascinated as to why he wouldn't possibly have gone to look into something like you did when his hair started receding.

He's such a public figure and he does seem like he's uncomfortable about it and it did age him prematurely. I wonder why he wouldn't look in to something. He had curtains. He was the king of curtains. Yeah, but what's interesting about, about it is that the female image of beauty, the female image and the either aging as a woman has been under such intense scrutiny and so criticized for generations that I find it interesting

that I think it's slightly, you know, things are shifting a little bit. You have like a way more open-minded approach to like just women aging because there have been some incredible actors who have just grown old, which is great. Like Patricia Arquette or, you know, you have like Keanu Reeves dating someone his age, which is fantastic. So, like, things like that. But at the same time, oddly, men have fallen into the same level of scrutiny. Because really and truly, boulding is just a sign of aging or, like, hair thinning or whatever else. Some people have, like, really strong jeans and it doesn't happen.

But you could argue, you know, why would he have to? Yeah. Let's have a break. And let's have a hair breakage. Oh, you laughed. That's unusual. Let's have a hair breakage. Because it's so.

Oh, you laughed at your stupidity, I see. You'd be a fan of memes. Welcome back to Miss Me, which is very, very trepidiously stepping into the Christmas quarter of the year. We're ready. What's Christmas? What is Christmas? Does it mean to you?

What it means to me is I've been drinking two hot chocolate tonight. Is that too much? No. It's been really nice. Let's have another question about hair. Hey Jordan, Nikita. Dan from Surrey here, massive fan of the podcast. First of all, I just wanted to thank you, Jordan,

from the bottom of my heart for the work you're doing around masculinity and the role model that you've become for men and boys alike. I'm a single dad. And I came along to your event in short each other week with women of the world and unashamedly cried on several occasions, but came away so inspired. So I'm 43 years old. dye my hair and my beard. I can't even say in this publicly. A mate of mine took a picture of me

about a year ago from the side. I looked like fucking Santa Claus there was just like it was the whitest beard ever. I started just fermenting my beard and using sort of a dye shampoo. I'm really happy with the fact that I look younger, but lots of mates say to me, oh, Dan, just let it go, mate. You know, it's grow all gracefully, all that kind of bullshit. But why do women get to dye their hair until they're much older? You know, I know a lot of women sort of just kind of let it go and go grey as well. But why is it frowned upon that men die their hair and they shouldn't die their hair and women can? What about you, Makita? Do you like a silver fox? Are you down with guys that might dye their hair? Let me know. Cheers. I love this question. It's funny that we were just

talking about how like, yeah, the men have just entered the same sort of arena of scrutiny. And actually, it's true when it comes to dying, there is more of a negative... Is there two pays? Two pays come to mind. Wasn't it like a thing? Two pays are gone. No, no, but I'm saying, but why did they exist? It's my point. Sorry, just thinking now about what a two-pays is, is fucking insane.

No, the thing is, you wouldn't even notice what two-pays are these days. I'm being serious. This is what I'm saying. I've seen it, no, I've seen it with my eyes and it happen in front of me. I did it on Steph's packed lunch. I went on that thing.

It's okay, I used to host it. It's fine. No, I love Steph. It's a great show. I'm actually devastated. Yeah, I love Steph's back lunch too. Yeah, yeah. I love Steph's packed lunch too.

Yeah, yeah. I wanted to do more on that show. there was one person came in to show this new age toupee thing basically like it's a six month at a time glued on wig that a hairdresser dies and cuts to your exact proportions if you're thinning in the middle. I mean, ultimately this is why a toupee was there because you thin in the middle of your head as a man, I guess.

I know women, I don't know. But, Makita, it was fucking insane. What this guy looked like afterwards. I could not believe what I, like you could not, there is not a chance that someone would look at that and go, that stuck on your head. There's no way. It was, and it's glued on. I was going to say, but what adhesive is strong enough to glue?

I don't know, but you just have to replace it six months. Six months. Six months. Wow. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Blue my mind. Yeah. So what do you think of this question? Do you think Silver Foxes are attractive? I don't like the term Silver Fox because it feels so like patronising to a man that's just not

dying his hair. But I love the idea of sharing a life with a man, being in love with them and watching them get older. I think we'd be very interesting. And I think it's really interesting to get old together. We've got on to Dan's question. He's like getting shamed by his friends for dying his bid. And so I'm saying, ageing gracefully is good.

Like, it's beautiful. But aging, feeling good makes you age better, I think. I might have misheard the question. But I'd also just shout out what Dan said to because that's just like made my day. But I don't think that his friends were shaming him for dying his beard. I think he was saying that his friends said he shouldn't die his beard. I think that's actually more of a conversation around our personal perceptions of what makes us feel young

and how other people perceive us. For example, I have a friend who his hairline went and he can't get it done. He can't get his corners done for some reason just because there are little specificities you need to do with like where your hair grows, the middle of your head, the shape of your head, that sometimes it can be difficult to do it. So he can't get it done. But I've baffled because he looks incredible bald. I know with my fear is that, you know,

I might end up looking okay bald, but like I definitely don't think I would immediately look good bald. I think I would struggle to adjust. I think I'd look a whole different face, you know. But with him, he looks brilliant. And he had it before when he had the headline, but he can't perceive that. Right.

He really can't perceive the idea that he looks good like that. And so he's always wearing a hat. I'm saying, bro, like, I swear on anything. I would never say this to you if I didn't believe it. And it makes me sad because I know he can't see what I can see. And it's the same thing with grey hair too. Like, I find grey hair super hot on women and on men. I think it looks great.

I can also understand that if a person gets a bunch of grey hair, all they're going to think is that they're getting old. Do you know what? I only just start getting grey hair. And I actually felt really lucky. I was like, God, I'm 41 and I'm only seeing this now. I think it's cool. I really think it's cool.

Actually, I am lying a bit. It did scare me a bit. I am lying a bit. It did scare me. I was a bit like, oh, I'm fallible. Isn't that interesting? That's the first word I thought. Fallible.

Yeah, it is odd. But I guess, you know, it's the same with wrinkles, same with like, you know, flexibility. Aging, you don't think will happen to you. I know that me and you are on a level with so many things and we're, like, our ideas and opinions on things. But I know you probably are still living in the land where you. you probably think you're not going to age because I was at 33. No, because I had that thing

with the receding hairline. I had it. I knew. And also, you know, the parts of my hair that grows at a different rate to others, I'm acutely aware of it. You know, it wasn't a public thing.

I hadn't stressed out about it other than I started to look and maybe I said it to Jade or a couple of mates. But I wonder, like, would it have gone to other parts of my head? What would I do? What would I've done with that? Obviously, I had the locks too.

people would say that it was traction alopecia, which I don't know because I really don't know whether that's true or not. My loctician would never tighten them too tight. But there's several reasons. That's also another reason why I thought it quite good to do a regrowth because I can really focus on taking care of my hair, massaging my scalp, like letting it get the sun. Yeah, but you still have a baby face, so you're fine. And we're lucky. My face also is changing, man. In the right lighting, I can get away of it. But like it's, you know, like if you see a bitch... No, but it's changing in that lovely 33-year-old way where you're just starting to look a bit more like your grown self.

I remember when I started going into that. I was like, this is great. Like 33 to like 38 is a beautiful time for everyone's face, I think. My mate is an incredible singer, and he's black and he's got grey locks. And I fucking loved them. And I was speaking to him about it in the gym the other day. And he was like, really? Oh, man, I'm not sure.

I'm like, from my perception, it's the coolest shit. Because it's not like he's lost hair. He's got all the hair. It's just great. How old is he? Like my age, like maybe a little bit of. older than me. I don't know. He looks young. But I think it looks cool. But again, I'm saying that as the outsider. Like, so for this... But isn't that interesting? He looks young, but it's like

that for him is a barometer of aging. So which is what Dan must be feeling. He must think that getting white hair is just automatically ages him. And his friends think is cool. Because I would probably say the same thing to him. I'd be like, bro, it looks cool. You know, because I don't know, your hair's changing. Like, it is just... Acceptance is the best thing with aging. Also, he's got a beard. And I'm just instantly jealous of that. So Dan, just if he's, a change the perspective you can get a beard that's really cool i'd love a beard can you not grow a beard no mickey i can't grow a beard i think it's probably that's absolutely right i don't think you're meant to have a beard i'm a maximum goatee that's what god gave you goatee so we're meant to just have

goatee right goatees are so weird just the idea that they're called that thanks thank you i think they're very like handsome inducing but it's just a weird word a goatee Okay, let's have another question. Let's get a final, final one. Hey, Jordan and Megita. My name is Phoebe and I'm sending you this voice note from a rainy, muddy dog walk in Manchester. And I have been removing excess body hair

in any way that I could. Shaving, waxing, nearing, veting, lasering. You name it, I've tried it. And this is just kind of always being an aspect of way. my life. However, in May, I was diagnosed with a form of blood cancer called Hodgkin's lymphoma, which meant I had to have some chemotherapy. Obviously, one of the side effects chemotherapy is hair loss. I'm now completely fine. The hair is growing back, thank goodness. So my question to you guys is how do you feel about body hair? Because I really struggle with it. I'd like to think of myself

as somewhat of a feminist. Now the leg hair, stroke bush, has come back. I feel like a big hairy monster. Any tips on combating this? Or is this just something that I need to accept? Thanks guys, love you. Oh, interesting that Phoebe finished with the word accept, which is kind of what we were talking about about when it comes to kind of aging and beauty, really, acceptance.

I'm so happy that you got through that and you survived and you're healthy again. Yeah, that's incredible. But I'm with you, Phoebe. I'm so bad with this. Like, I have a bikini wax every two weeks. I shave my legs, shave my armpits. I get my eyebrows done. I get my hairy done every three months.

Like, I'm working with the hair on my body every fucking week of my life. And it does disgust me to have hair, like hairy legs. And isn't it interesting? She used the word monster. I thought that's so funny. A lot of women that I know don't think, oh, I've got hairy legs. They think monster. Do you know how quickly it goes to monster?

It's very strange. That's wild. I know exactly what she means and it doesn't take much. If I have hairy legs, I'm like, I'm a monster. Like, it's really weird the link we have between hair and unattractiveness and undesirability when actually then the hair on the head, the length and all that is really linked to desirability. So I guess it's just patriarchal ideas about what women has to look like. Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it?

Because my value around this is definitely to be open-minded. I'm definitely not a guy who subscribes to the idea of, I mean, certainly not hairlessness, that kind of makes me feel a bit weird. Really, does it? That's important. I was asked my next boyfriend to take all the hair off. I spoke about this with Lil, like, when we first started, miss me.

I was like, no way because I'd feel like a child. But then I did it, and I then got addicted to it to having absolutely no hair. There's two conversations in it. There's like, again, this is similar oddly to the lock conversation because there's utility and then there's cultural pressure. So, for example, a trim can make sense because some things might be easier or, you know, there's less friction and stuff like that. So that I get. And maybe it might feel nice.

Maybe it might feel nice for the woman, not even the guy, but like for the woman. That's an interesting conversation. But it's hard to separate that from porn or from cultural ideas on what is okay. And that's frustrating. It's the same with like if I know women who have like let their hair grow on their legs as a rebellious thing. Like, I support that 100% But does it make me double take? Yeah, just because that's, I've grown up in a world

Where that's not normal for a woman to have Same with like armpit hair, I've got no stress about that I think it makes sense. I'm like, yeah, fucking keep it. But then I think a lot of guys would shave their armpit hair too, to be fair. Really? I don't think it's like particularly, well, maybe some men attach their masculinity to it.

I don't know. But obviously, you know, swimmers do. Oh yeah, sorry, the swimming community we're talking about specifically. I barely have any body hair, by the way, Just to throw it out there. Oh, do you have hairless legs? No, I've got hair on my legs. But, like, for a man, I don't really have much body hair.

I don't know why. Probably because you're meant to be aerodynamic. Aerodynamic, yeah. God wouldn't let you have a beard to weigh you down. He only gave me a goat seat. You're meant to move fast. It started to grow, like, I'm getting more hair on my face, which is weird. Like, I feel like surely it stopped growing at this point.

Maybe you'll just get a beard in your 40s. Is that a thing? I don't know. So the lady said, how do you feel about body hair? Yeah, I get rid of it all. get plucked like a chicken literally if you go get all those things done in one week you do feel plucked like a chicken

what's interesting though is I think there's more chance of men going the same way than women like the feminist revolt is to be like fuck you I'm growing my hair which is cool but there might be the other revolt which is Ben being like I don't think the hair thing makes sense at all for anyone I'm going to trim my pub and my armpit hair

I think that's more likely, you know. There are loads of pub trimmers. They're, like, really popular now. Maybe it's going the other way. If I was in bed with a man and he was overly groomed, I think I would find that quite a turn off. Turn off? Interesting.

Do you know what's mad about facial hair is that, obviously I just did that play entertaining Mr. Sloan and we were looking at pictures of the 60s. No hair was considered a sign of, like, I guess. A bedraggledness. To be messy, yeah, unkept. Pretty much all. men had, were clean shaven.

That was the thing. 75 years later, we're now at a stage where women will actually say, and you know this is true, women will fancy men with the beards, but they will go off them if they shave their beards off. There's a whole trends online of men shaving their facial hair and showing their partner and their partner freaking out.

What? I think it'd be the other way round. No, no, no, no. Women really like beards at the moment. They go for the beard and then if it's gone, yeah, they feel bereft. Yeah. There'll be people listening right now who will be in relationships.

for years. I mean like a decade plus and they've never ever seen their partner without a beard for sure and they'll prevent them shaving it. Jesus Christ. You'd get a bit like

do you actually love me? Well this is the thing. That will be the test, isn't it? Shave the beard off, see how they're feeling. I can't wait to just like share my mess with someone.

Like when you said that you were talking about looking at your hairline and wondering whether it was becoming a problem to you or whatever if you were becoming self-conscious about anything

and you were like, I think I said something to Jade. Just that little thing. I'm like, you shared that with your partner. Yeah. That for me is so new. I would never, in the old days, be like, I'm really hating my weave.

I feel like it feels bumpy and I feel like it's not sexy. Like, I didn't share that with my partner. I just internalized it all. Really? Yeah, that's intimacy. And I love that you and Jade have that, like pure intimacy,

not just on like a sexual level, just on a level of like the way you share who you are with each other. I just learnt something there. Yeah, I mean, don't we don't, we don't for all things. But, you know, every now and again, I think, you know, especially if it's going to lead to a big shift, I will say in a funny way, I'll say this to counterbalance it. If anyone listening does follow Jade's career, when she dropped her album for the promo, she dyed her eyebrows, she died them blonde.

She didn't tell me. She was going to do that shit. Not that she should, by the way. I personally don't give a fuck. Like, if I had shaved an eyebrow off, I don't fucking know. I don't know what it would be as the equivalent, but it was just because she hadn't told me. The first moment, I was like, wait, what the fuck? fuck is going on like it was such a she like looked different it was such an adjustment i actually

found it really fucking cool in the end like because i got used to it and then i was just that was just that was just that was usual for me it's a big hair based life choice that actually she had kind of ruminated on and then just done it and then it was this thing and then she would kept saying to me like then she kept checking in you know like oh my eyebrows made you feel weird and i'm like that it's cool but loads of people freak but i know why she did it because she wanted to separate herself from the kind of like girl group image you want to be like fuck this i want to do some different shit yeah jade's a little fucking punk like i loved that she did that yeah come on this also happened with mabel and pree they got married

and then mabel cut all her hair off cut a hair off yeah and he was a bit like i love you but like i kind of love your hair as well baby like what the fuck then died it blonde that's big things so she does look very different from the day they got married and for most of their relationship it's not a deep thing but i think it was an adjustment it was like okay it's an adjustment yeah and i think that's like fair enough Oh my god This is exhausting We can end now

Let's end Anyway So now it's finally Christmas Let's do something Christmasy Let's do In the words of the great Charles Dickens Who some would argue gave us Christmas alongside Albert

We're going to do Great Christmas expectations Nice Nice Now we're talking Now you're talking That's good shit I think Dickens would be proud of that

My expectations are low, but sure. Mine are really high. I actually think I'm going to have the greatest Christmas of my life. I'm completely serious. I've said that to a lot of people. I think this might be the best Christmas we ever have. No pressure. Terrible thing to do to someone's Christmas.

So yeah, great Christmas expectations. With Andy cooking. Do you know what I'm saying? I've got to think high. I've got to think pig. Okay. There we are, guys. Next topic is great Christmas expectations.

that's the end of the show. Thanks, Keats. Please WhatsApp voice note your questions to 08,0304090. You'd think we've been doing this quite a few months now. I've never said this before. WhatsApp your voice notes to 08,0304090, please. There you go.

And if you want to quote Dickens to us or anything like that, that would be lovely. I'd love some readings from a Christmas Carol. You don't have to do that. You can so do that. Do you know what? I'll do that I'll find some excerpts

from a Christmas carol and great expectations that mean something I'm going to make you cry we'll see you next week I'll see you next week bye bye

love you love you thanks for listening to Miss Me this is a Persefonica production for BBC Sounds Hunter, Reader of Minds, and completely unqualified.

Have you ever wanted to get deep into the heads of celebrities? Ever wanted to see some totally unregulated psychological testing in action? Welcome to my office, where I'll be making famous people uncomfortable in the name of science and light entertainment. Joe Marla will see you now. That's me, Joe Marla. I'll see you now. Listen now on BBC Sound. Once.