Miss Me? - Listen Bitch! Tony the Tiger

Episode Date: December 1, 2025

Miquita Oliver and Jordan Stephens answer your questions about anger.Next week, we want to hear your questions about HAIR. Please send us a voice note on WhatsApp: [phone]. Or, if you like, send us an email: [e-mail] episode contains very strong language and adult themes. Credits: Producer: Natalie Jamieson Technical Producer: Will Gibson Smith Assistant Producer: Caillin McDaid Production Coordinator: Rose Wilcox Executive Producer: Dino Sofos Commissioning Producer for BBC: Jake Williams Commissioners: Dylan Haskins & Lorraine Okuefuna Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

The following episode contains strong language, themes of an adult nature, and, as usual, we've missed me, we go deeper, but this one is deeper underground, no Jemaraquai. Thank you. I like being welcomed. I'm going to be really honest today. I'm going to be really, really honest. Okay. I'm always as honest as I can be, but I'm really going to open myself up into all the things that make me angry.

We were just, like just now, me and Jordan were having a conversation. It's really pissed me off. Not with each other. I love him dearly, but what we were talking about and the people we were talking about. And it's interesting what anger does to you physically. I'm a bit vibrating now. It's a motivator. It's a fucking motivator, isn't it?

Yeah. So, let's be honest, together, about why we get so bloody angry. The theme for this week's listen, bitch, is Jordan Stevens. Anger. It's anger. Anger. Anger. Anger. Let's have our first question. Tony the Tiger was angry. And so are we. Let's go. Hi, I'm Akita and Jordan. My name's Kara, and I'm from Liverpool. And I just wanted to ask, how do you did with anger? around situations you know you can't change or you feel powerless to change

thank you so much bye ain't that the question of the fucking day Jesus Christ Oh Cara if I knew that I'd be the king of the world No it's very much about mastering your own inner peace And how can you This is what I've been doing How can you still feel good

Even when someone is doing something that you can't handle that's upsetting you Or making you feel a certain way How do you then return to a place of feeling good It is transandental. It's amazing how good you feel when you find a way to go back there. I can do it really easily now. That's great.

I think we've got a new moral, unethical dilemma, which is, are we in a voter commas, bad people, for choosing not to engage emotionally with something outside of our control? There's a lot of news that I get that I don't think I need at all. I really don't need it. Like, we get fed. Right. I mean, I can probably go on now and look on the news

and see an example of what I'm talking about. You wake up and there'll be alert saying, like, a cable car. crushed on a glacier in Switzerland or like 58 car pile up in Delhi but that's fed to me what am I supposed to do with that? Do I mean? Like it's for the sake of

oh my God that's horrendous like so we're pushed into this feeling of wow that's horrendous and I can't do anything about it but I don't know why if my family were in Delhi or Switzerland respectively I wouldn't need the news to tell me that they were in that incident

instead it's just spreading the incident to just make people feel scared or upset or send... But fearmongering is a really real control method. But people will say to me, how can you say that? How can you not just show concern

for the fact that someone's going through a thing? And my question is, do we reserve the right nowadays to our own personal peace? Do we reserve that right? Or is it considered... Turning away? Is it considered turning away?

Yeah. Well, I reserve the right, I think, in my daily life, but there are times where I feel like if I don't read the papers or look at the news that I am trying to turn away. Well, actually, to be fair to the caller, she did specify anger.

So, like, just to be clear, my point generally is about just feeling uncomfortable. Anger would usually be because it's something specific, you know, so it might be, let's say, like a woman being attacked in another country or a story of, you know, a boy being stabbed or these kind of things that fill us with anger or the desire to want to change a circumstance. Exactly, the desire to want to change something.

But then what you're usually left with, because it's something that happened millions of miles away but that you can't get to and it's already happened is a feeling of powerlessness, which is a difficult feeling to hold. And it is usually where you get to after anger. Yeah. Which is kind of what the mastering the peace thing is about.

It's about allowing yourself to feel pain and anger and then letting it pass through you and going back to a place of peace. Did you say you get to powerlessness after anger? Quite often I do, yeah. I feel angry. And then I feel, this is before I was doing this work, I feel like I can't do anything about my anger and I feel powerless.

Oh, right, of course, yeah. Yeah, allowing the anger to be felt. I think for me in my head as well, it's that, I don't know, it's hard to say this concisely, but, you know, when we talk about masculine and feminine energy and yin and yang and balance and whatever, in my life, I felt that my task is to know when to open and close my heart. I know what I think each energy represents.

in terms of opening and closing the heart and both, if you just keep your heart open and if you just keep your heart closed they both result in total disarray. The dream is that we have created a mechanism where we know when it's okay to protect our hearts.

That is something. Totally open, close. Yeah, like if there's a situation where we actually know we truly cannot affect it, like truly and we have to be honest about that, we are, in my belief, it's okay in that moment to protect your heart.

but you can't just keep your heart shut. There might be moments when you can open it and then make a real difference. Yes, yes. But we are the masters of our own ship. And if you realize that nothing that anyone else does you can control, then you go, okay, what can I control?

And you go back to yourself. And actually, that's really surrendering. And surrendering is huge because people think that it's a kind of letting go and a giving up. It's not. It's giving it up to that that is greater than us, which is the universe.

I'm sorry to be like to university, but no, I think it's important. And I think that's what surrendering is really about. It's like, fuck, that really pissed me off, like the conversation we just had. And then I'm like, I actually can't do anything about those people. But I can change the shit I do. And I can do bigger things if I just release and let the universe dream a bigger dream for me. Yes. Most of my credible experiences in life have come at the other side of surrendering.

It is important to state, though, that I think anger as a motivator is important when you can change something. Oh, yeah. just to play devil's advocate would be, for example, last week, you spoke about the witch hunt, right? That is how change has occurred in society. So in that respect, anger's important. If we're angry enough about it. Yeah. Yeah.

I was angry last week, actually. But you've motivated people through being honest about that anger, and you actually can. Really? Yes. Don't look at the comments, but they are all pretty much all positive and they're all supportive. Oh, hello. Hi, Eddie. Hi, did you have a good time?

These are good for anger, dogs. Doug's amazing for anger, yeah. Like, what are you going to be angry about with this little shimu-shmo, shoo. Let's have another question. But yeah, I feel like it's a good motivator. Sorry, Jay, yes, I agree with you. It is a great motivator. I've done great things with my anger as well.

I'm sure that will come up. Let's have another question, please. Hi, Makita and Jordan. I'm Florence. I live in the Netherlands, but I'm originally from Foxton. Thank you for all your episodes. Every week, it's like a little nostalgic trip for me because I really miss being in the UK.

My question about anger is maybe a bit more for Makita. I'm not sure. Actually, maybe it's more for Jordan. How to be fucking angry. It's obviously a really gendered emotion. Or is it gendered or is the expression of it gendered? Maybe the expression of it's gendered. I've just gone through a bit of a messy breakup with the father of my two-year-old. I should be really angry with him. But I just can't seem to access it. It always turns to. sadness. I guess I just repress it down or push it down. So my question for you is for me, but also how can I teach it to my son how to feel and express anger healthily? Thanks. What a fucking question. The anger will come. Don't worry, it will come. Don't they say they're like seven stages of grief when it comes to separating from someone. And anger is on that list. Anger's quite soon. It's quite early, isn't it? When I've gone through things, like that, third, it's usually about third anger. Such a good question.

I think that, I'd like to talk about Lily Allen's album. I think Lily's given women this whole kind of new pathway and freedom to be angry and actually show all those different stages. It is those seven stages of grief. And there is the like head fuck bit and the denial bit and then the fucking angry bit. I can't remember which song I would say is possibly the angriest, maybe Pussy Ballas. but I feel like she's shown everyone that especially women

that she's talking about this lady's asking about gender to anger I feel like she said to women it's okay to be fucking angry and you can show that in a myriad of different ways but definitely don't try and suppress it let it out

you can't go over it you can't go around it you have to go through it and that's what the album is it's someone Michael Rosen what you're referencing what the fuck

just a reference my guy just a little bear hunt in there throwing a bear hunt bitter western girl and we've got a trip through anger it really is it's like that album Jordan is Lily going through it

not on the other side not just at the beginning we go through it with her and you hear where the anger bits are and she's not scared of showing us and I think that's been great for women because I think maybe women are told to be less angry than men are possibly

I don't know what are you think I think there's a massive like cultural nuance to this. In my stances, I don't think that anger is gendered at all. I do think that some cultures encourage women to be more submissive. There's also a very real physical threat that women experience and so often don't express anger and fear that there'll be a repercussion which I get. I also see that mimicked in the male community if you're not able to physically back your stance on something, you know. As a British culture generally is about sucking it up and a stiff upper lip, which I don't agree with. It's, you know, complete suppression. There's other

cultures where I promise you man or woman there is no where are they let's go live there no no no no quite other way I know a lot of people who have been brought up and it's certainly not just been their father who has expressed anger there's very much a motherly anger that's been taken out on them yeah but my point is every single human being has to express anger healthily we're not taught how to express anger so often it ends up becoming rage actually anger can be a root out of sadness in my belief this is just my how I went into therapy I only was able to understand how to love myself and another person from being angry.

Anger helped me find love. But I was raised to believe that anger and love were antithetical to each other. But they're actually completely aligned. Children. Of course, because you can only fucking, when I have been angry with someone, it's only because I loved them.

You know? Yes. Like, it's when love was there. Yeah, and my big issue was like being angry with someone. I love out of the fear that my anger would make them disappear. Not love me.

yeah oh no disappear entirely that's the fear i still have it i still carry it i've had it with a couple of friendship situations i get really we don't want that a person to go abandon issues are really common sure i've had this i've had this revelation recently in like the 19 different types of therapy i'm doing and i'm terrified of god yeah i'm terrified of people turning on me yeah like turning on me even if it's like in a um very much in love relationships but also like even if it's just I don't know if I've said the wrong thing and I just always think people are going to turn on me

quite swiftly, quite quickly and I'm always trying to bat that away and I think that's when I said to you I've been deeming with how angry I've been I think I was angry about how scared I was of that for so long because it makes me so weak and fearful so I live differently and also it's there to protect you

you know it's there to protect you that's what my therapist would say that anger is there to protect us You know, if we can't be angry of somebody that we love, like without fearing they'll go, then, you know, somebody in a healthy situation would say, if they go, then go. If they can't be there in the face of your anger and hold you, then they shouldn't be there at all. This is what I mean, and that's just trust, I think, because I just, that's what I'm not doing right now. I'm just not. Yeah, me too, man.

I really struggle. Being led by someone else's, it's just all, which is why the anger has left someone. But I wouldn't be scared if anger returned. I'm not scared of anger. It's literally, it was the root of my addiction was anger. Really? Yeah, yeah. Internalised anger.

Right, and I'm not really drinking at the moment. Fuck. I went back and looked at every moment that I had spiraled into self-destruction through whatever means. And every time it was a proper one, something had happened with someone close to me and I didn't tell them to fuck off. That was it. I didn't say, you've pissed me off.

Fuck off. you don't have to say fuck off sorry there are healthier ways of expressing it it's a boundary it'll be like you really upset me I don't want to speak to you right now like that I could have done or I don't want to be in this relationship or I can't believe you've done this

or all this kind of stuff instead I just took it didn't respond and took it out on myself instead and I'd do that through harming myself and the irony is it would hurt that person anyway especially if I was in a relationship with them but it's hard with this example that the woman has given in

because she's also got to think of a child She's also got to think of the future with that child, you know, kids at that, hey, oh my God, like, you know, the kids are incredibly perceptive. So it's a real juggling act that, and I feel, I really feel for that situation. But I know that my therapist, certainly my mentor, Donna Lancaster, would really recommend at least honoring that anger in a private way, at the very least. You can write letters, uncensored letters, and burn them afterwards. You can scream into a pillow. So you can do things to lighten that load rather than let it buckle you. She's written two great books.

One's the bridge, another one, wise words for women, which isn't actually specifically for women, but I owe Donna a lot, and I talk about her a lot because she's really incredible. And so, you know, maybe something in those books would help. Also, it's not always depression by Hilary Jacob Shendell, game changer for me. Let's have another question. Oh, I don't think we've done this since episode three, which is we're going to read out a message

because the person wanted to stay anonymous which we totally understand How does anger manifest if you don't express it directly is the question How does anger manifest if you don't express it directly? Illness Drinking, yeah I think it may definitely in the past

Let me drink So just to bring the dogs back He did make the point that dogs can aid anger If I accidentally stepped on Mimi's poor Or I was even wrestling with Spike Wet and they yelp straight away. They just go, what? You know what I mean?

That's just the instant thing. And then they let it go. They're just an instant reactive yelp to that feeling. Also, even with anxiety, if something scares spike, I know sometimes he gets freaked out about the depth of water. Like if he can get into something, he wants to know how deep it is. So he jumps in and it's just deep.

He'll come out and he'll just run round and circles for a bit because he's just getting rid of the cortisol that's built up in his body. What we don't do is human beings is yelp. That is what healthy anger is. If somebody says something and they step across your boundary and you don't say no, we swallow the Yelp and then we become like a thousand Yelps.

Exactly. And then we're living the Yelp. And then we blow up. Yeah. And then we become rage, not anger. So what would be a kind of, because obviously that there are so many parts of ourselves and I have a really like pragmatic,

like confident grown part who I love. He's great. I try and hang out with as much as possible. I would like to know how shit. would do a Yelp. Is that like when you write the letter or not even the letter bit when you like say out loud

that you know what? That was too far for me and that's not how I get down so I'm taking myself out of this situation now. Is that the version of a Yelp? calmly just letting someone know that's a boundary. It's no.

Yeah, it's just no. Yeah, I love no. It's so freeing though. Because really if you hold in the no then what you're doing is sort of saying yes Yes, you can keep fucking with my boundaries Yes, you can keep fucking with me

Yes, you can actually get worse if you want Yeah, actually to go back to the first caller I mean, I always recommend You should be able to communicate with With somebody you've, especially somebody who exchanged love with You should be able to say no You should be able to say to them I don't want to do this anymore

And what I've found as well Which is very interesting because I've been an addict I can sometimes find myself in codependent relationships whether it's within a substance or a person and if you say no to a person it often reveals whether they in that moment are using you or not that's what's quite wild about it

if somebody is actually not caring of how you feel but they're caring about what you can do for them and you say no and they have a tantrum about it then you know yes yes the reaction will be quite telling I actually am going to need a break from all this anger I need a little break Oh, I feel great.

That's all I needed. Welcome back. Let's get back into it. Let's get back into this anger-ragy shit. Kelly? Oh, hi. Come say hi to Jordan. We're discussing anger.

Kelly's like the least angry person in the world. Hi. I feel like Kelly would tell someone if they were fucking fucking with her. Yeah. Not angrily. with a dementia, small with a dementia, small on her face. Still a boundary.

Still boundary. I also, I never cross Kelly's boundaries. I'd never do that to her. That's why we have a good relationship. Let's have another question for anger today on Lillison Beach. Hi, McKeda and Jordan. My name is Andrea and I'm from Derry.

My question is, how do you work through unresolved anger you feel towards yourself or a situation you handle badly? There have been a few key instances, especially on work over the day. close family members where I've blown up with someone seemingly out of nowhere because my patience was at the limit. In these instances, I've tried to distance myself until I feel calmer and

apologise with an explanation as to why I acted that way. To be clear, that's an explanation, not an excuse, because if I'm in the wrong, I own up to it. Other times, if the other people or the other person was also angry, you can quickly come to an understanding with each other and hash it out if the subject you were angry about wasn't particularly important. to be gumway. For example, doing the rubbish, which is a thing that I have arguments with my co-workers about quite often, but we get through it. We keep moving. Bye. Me and Garfield thought about the bins so much when I lived at their house. I was like, okay, do we have unresolved anger between us? Because we're getting too passionate about these bin fights. Bins get very fighty,

don't they? What do you think, Jordan? Because this did just make me think of something that was going on when I got very angry? I have to live within like a kind of structure, psychological structure that has helped me in therapy. But we're all fallible, like the rage thing, the issue with not expressing anger in the moment is that like I say, it builds up, becomes resentment, becomes rage.

Resentment isn't good for any relationship, friendship, nothing. That's why I find myself often in quite uncomfortable conversations because I feel like I need to get it out of my system before it becomes worse. If I feel in a resentment building I'll have to speak to the person because I'm like

I would rather have this uncomfortable conversation than resent you. Yeah, there's also quite a lot of conversation about accountability like sometimes accountability in a situation can free you from the anger you may have been feeling

because maybe you were a bit part of it. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I'm a real big fan of saying sorry. People say I say sorry too much. I bet you are. I bet you're bloody brilliant with accountability. I think I try to be.

Obviously I'm still human. Do I mean? Sometimes I feel stubborn or I feel like I'm, you know, I'm not in the wrong. But I also, I really, two things that really frustrate me in life is one, someone saying, I've done nothing wrong. I fucking hate that sentence. It makes me so angry that sentence. And the second thing that makes me angry is, I'm sorry you feel that way. Ah, no, that's a fucker. You should be, you should be fined.

That's a fucker. You should be fined. Because I'm sorry you feel that way. It's completely taking away. any accountability. I think that's just exercising all accountability out of the situation. I think that's a very weak, cowardice move. I'm sorry

you feel that way. Fuck you. I feel like it's like a trickle down from like just like the judicial system. Oh my God. I think people think if they say sorry, no, because it's true actually, sorry, just to give an example. I actually did

once as a young man apologize for something that I didn't know I had done which I believe in still to this day. I was punished because I apologize because in their mind that was an admission of guilt. Well, yes. I wasn't admitting that I was guilty.

I just, this person thought I'd done something so I apologize and I stand by that. Like, that's what frustrates me is you get punished for honesty a lot of the time. Exactly. It's like, well, do we want people to be telling the truth or not? But in life, you know, I've done nothing wrong.

No, you don't think you've done anything wrong. Someone else thinks you've done something wrong. What do you think you're losing by just apologising? That's what's so fascinating to me. And I can ask myself that question, you know, because really and truly, with people I love, you know, Jade included in this,

99% if not 100% of the time, if one of us apologises, the other one will apologise after. Of course. It's just a battle to who says it first. Exactly. Yeah, right. The journey.

But some people won't even say that first one. And then two people are just stubborn for what? What's the point? Actually, what's the point? Well, because the, yeah, Unless you don't like the person and that's a whole other conversation. But we could lend this to war.

This is about power and holding on to it even if it's in a relationship of two people or a country. Yeah, but if people want, I think the idea is if you want the connection, if you piss someone off on purpose, you don't need to care about that because you don't care about them.

I was just saying the journey we go on to get to these places is quite interesting. And I knew at the time when this thing happened to me, I knew that it was going to change the way I dealt with accountability and anger. I was doing the culture show for Sunday Times and I was madly frustrated that I was doing something that not many people were watching. And it was taking quite a lot of my time and I was hating it.

And then they decided to start adding guests and it was a terrible idea and they wanted us to interview this pop star that I would have possibly interviewed 10, 15 years previously on Pop World and I just started getting furious. And I was terrible on set that day, Jordan. I was me 20 being badly behaved on set, which I really, It really wasn't often, but I went back into this place. I was like stomping around, not giving my producer any eye contact. I was terrible.

And then the next day, I asked for a meeting. I was like, I want a meeting with the production team about why they think that this is the way forward. And I want my agent in it. And I'm angry. Then we have the meeting. And it was a meeting to tell me off about how badly. I started talking. And then the producers were like, no, sorry, we're not talking about that.

Today's about how you behaved. And it wasn't okay. So behaved. I'm in trouble. Those things make me fucking furious. And we had this terribly uncomfortable meeting and afterwards I was in shock and I was saying to my agent,

Jess, I can't believe that this is what they're saying. Da-da-da-da. Had to sit with it for a week and find my accountability in it. And then day before the next show, I took my producer and my co-presenter out for coffee before we started and I had to say that was completely unacceptable

and it's because I'm scared and I'm frustrated at it and I feel like I need to be doing more than this show. And I'm embarrassed that I'm here and did it. It was so hard. I had to look them in the eye and say these things that I didn't even want to say to myself. But that's incredible. Yeah, it was amazing.

Unlocked. And I bet you felt great. I felt fucking brilliant. And then my producer was like, you're right, it was a bad idea. And I think the show ended two months later. It was on its last legs. And I wasn't meant to be doing it. But my fury that I was stuck in this place in my career made me act from a place of anger.

And I was really badly behaved. but I faced it and it really changed things for me that day. Thank you, Albertine, and Grant, for being so gracious and accepting my apology. It really changed things for me that day. It was great. I learnt a lot, but I was just frustrated and bored.

Another question? I've really, I don't want to live in all this anger. What is it? Why is so uncomfortable? Because I'm really not in an angry place at the moment. So I thought it'd be good to talk about it, but now I'm like, this is taking me back to lots of places that I'm just not in. one more one more one more question hi Jordan and Mekita my name's Gwen from Islington I'm 18

and I flip in love miss me so much I think if I meet someone more than twice I will bring up something that you guys talked about in the podcasting conversation yeah I love it gives me so much serotonin I had chicken curry for dinner last night if you guys still care about that I have two questions I don't know if I was allowed hopefully you answer one of the questions first question is kind of related to something Jordan talks about his book about having a breakup with his mum. I am in a situation where that's not really possible but I think it's something that I would

be healthy for me in the future. How do you navigate feeling anger towards someone like a parent because of some of their behaviours but also feeling a lot of love and compassion for them as a human that they've been in a situation to make them behave the type of way they're in? also this is a long voice note it's probably not going to get to this

how do you do you I'm just going to not ask second question by yeah that was an incredible oh okay I was ready for your second question I'm fucking here for it bro Gwen in Islington local local local local local local

well were you angry with your dad I'm not angry with him and I keep trying to access it and I can't really because I'm just so I feel like I'm in such a honeymoon period with my dad where I'm just like, this is so fun and God, it's great to get to know. God, and you're my dad, and you love me and I love you. And I guess I maybe was angry my whole life, so I don't really need it to do that with him now.

Did he apologize? Yeah, and cried a lot. There you are. My dad's a real crier. Accountability. Yeah, yeah, loads of it. Loads of it. And loads of asking for forgiveness.

And I gave it to him in buckets. I wanted a relationship with him. I wanted him in my life. That's really cool. It's done immeasurable things. Yeah. Mum, my annoy with my mum? No, not right now.

Not this week. Yeah, but you guys can get angry with each other. Fuck yeah. You best believe. Which is really good. Yep. What about you and Herman? I feel like that's the anger one.

No, no, no, both. Both. Okay. Definitely angry my parents. I think it's natural to be angry. Is it? Again, this is a whole other thing. But I'm a big fan of a physician called Gabon Mate.

His work around ADHD and addiction, I found the most accessible, relatable. He believes basically that as a child, you have the propensity to something like ADHD or other neurological disorders, I guess, however we measure it, quirks. But then they're activated by the environment that you're in. By his understanding, it's basically a protective mechanism.

If I don't feel like I can be angry with my parent because they're struggling or they're not as emotionally available as I like them to be, or they're literally not there, then as a child, we might go into our own heads as a way of not engaging with that feeling. Right. And that can also, again, lead to addiction

because you're separating yourself from a very, very human emotion. The reality is, as a boy, I have no concept or understanding of why my parents are, how they are, or there or not there. I don't know. All I know is I want them there and I need them there, actually. I need them. Yeah. Just to relate that to another thing I heard is that, I think is Alan the Botter.

on said something about he's looking forward to or he felt connected to his child when they told him that they hate him that was one of the things that he found most really yes because in that moment it's proven that they respect him enough to be angry with him yeah to say i fucking hate you yeah because that's normal when you're a kid you're supposed to bash against authority you know i think what we're talking about is being able to hold feelings and then put them down And that's really powerful to be able to hold something and then put it down. Specifically with parents, you should be able to be angry with your parents. But the thing is, I'm not angry as my mum, but maybe just not this week.

But like deeply, if anything, the older I get, the more empathy I have. The more I see that situation from a 19, 20 year old, and then a 24 year old and then a 25 year old losing her brother. And why do you think I haven't had kids? I can't imagine how scary it would be to be skint and have a child. child to look after and then lose your flat and lose your brother. The things my mum went through, I can't imagine. I can't comprehend, actually. Why is that mutually exclusive with anger? That's that. That's the point. Because I can't be angry with her, like, she was going through so much. I don't want to put that on her surviving. So where are you putting it? I'm not angry

about it. I'm like, that was our life. Again, I'm actually not literally not qualified to ask any more questions about this, especially as it's like, it's spring. No, this is, good. I like to be questioned. Gets you somewhere. Tell me what you're angry about with your parents and then I can understand maybe more. Okay. My thing is that my mum was struggling and I knew it and I owe my mum a lot. But my mum struggled with herself too. And she knows this. I would say this to, I have said this too. I mean, it's in my fucking book. My mum struggled with herself too naturally because she was up against it like saying. And so I felt that as a child and chose not to be angry with her about things a child would be angry about.

I don't know. To protect her. I don't know, yes, but that's the issue. No child should feel like they should protect their parent. And that's not my mum's fault. Just to be clear. This is all new age shit. We're able to access information about this stuff.

I drive my parents crazy because all I do is read up about therapy and I go to therapy and I read about well-being and I listen to audio. But it's nuts for them because they didn't have any of that when they were kids. But the reality is it doesn't matter. When you're a child, you need to be able to be angry with those in a position of parental guidance, or shit, whatever we're going to call it, care.

That's a massive part of it, and there's a consequence to that. Okay. We can't protect our parents, basically. We shouldn't feel as if it's our duty to protect our parents. A lot of us, not just me and you, Keats, but like a lot of people, especially when money is hard, like, it's hard. We're birthing generations of kids. These parents are working their fucking asses off just to put food on the table.

And the consequence of that is kids grown up with an avoidant attachment, like a, like a, a struggle to feel connected in relationships and in other things because, you know, They're protecting the people that are... That they love, yeah. I think I am angry with one thing with my mom. Well, not one. I'm angry with her for hating herself so much for so long because I think... Yes.

That's what I write in my book about my mom. Oh, God. But she could just... I know. She couldn't help it, but like, it did fuck me up. Right. The ease with which she could see herself as a monster, because that's coming to me quite a lot.

It's okay to feel that way. Stop it. And you can say that to Andy. You can say that to her. No, it's too painful for her. She's free now as well. Look at her. I don't want to drag her back to that.

But I don't know how much it's gone. I have told us she should do this maiden to mother thing that I'm doing. But she's very... What's that? This course I'm doing, which is giving me all this piece. It's just about like dealing with the wind of child with it. This has all got very deep. I need to go now.

I'm sorry. No, it's fine. This is really important. But it's quite a lot. look I think it's really hard being a parent I think there can't be understood enough especially a parent doing it on their own yeah and we are not parents yet

it's really hard but unfortunately it doesn't come without cost and that's just the truth you know and I think being able to express that without blame I had to have this chat with my mum and dad before I put my book out I remember I sat down and was like look there's going to be some tough bits in here but it's because

I want a future mum or a current mum or a future son or a current daughter her, whatever, obviously, you know, I want them to feel that process, that journey and the conflict of it. I owe my mom everything and she made me angry. So both those things exist. Do you think it's why you haven't had kids yet? No. Okay. So it hasn't stopped you doing that. I had to go through years of therapy to be able to have a mature relationship. This doesn't come into play of why you haven't started a family. You and Jay just haven't yet. That's more Jade than me. Yeah. She's just got to dominate the world quick and then we'll sort

that. Yeah, I know. Someone asked me today, like, how come Jordan and Jay don't have kids? I was like, I think they're busy. I'm broody, man. Listen, I'm broody, because I know that it's going to completely redefine my understanding of everything. I don't... I know. I can't waver it to come into your life and

just fuck with you. Ruin my life, yeah. Just fucking suddenly, I'm like, fuck this shit. I don't believe in any of this. I first got, entered into the world of mental health 10 years ago and next year, right? Wow. That's how a lot. And in one fell swoop, I will just be passing down generational trauma

within six months of having a child. Or not. Or not? No, I try not to. I don't want to. I don't want to, but it's really hard. I think that's a really good way to end anger, actually. I think the only thing we can all try and do

is just try and pass down this little generational trauma as possible. Yeah, just a little bit. You know, by the time that we're all living till 300 and in bubbles on Mars, we might like each other. Then we'll be happy. Then we'll be happy and like each other. and want to share this world together. And that about wraps it up for today's episode on our anchor.

See you in 300 years when we no longer possess this emotion. And that would be silly because it's useful. It is useful. And I hope that's what came across today. Fucking El Jordan, I've cried, I've laughed, stick a fork in me, I've done. What would you like to talk about next week? Joy. No.

Letting our hair down. Hair. Hair. I can do I think it's important I really want to talk about what it's like for men to go bald

You've never done hair before Never done hair Isn't that crazy? Wow That's actually really cool The theme for next week's listen Bitch is Hair

Hair Hair today Gone tomorrow Do you see how weaved that in Yep Very good Save this gold Save that gild

It will get deep We'll cry We'll laugh We'll frolic I found some pictures of you And me actually From 20 to like 2014 Oh no

No no no I'll get them up For the pictures Of what your hair Used to look like This is definitely It was cute Very indie

Is it very indie? Is it very indie We will discuss The weave years Because that might be early weave because it got so bad. But anyway, it's all a journey. Hair is a journey. So I

can't wait to do hair with you. And you've been on your own hair journey. So... Yeah, I kind of often know. Exactly. We will see you next week. For hair. Voice note ours. It was a nice novelty to read one out, but we need your energy. Okay. Voice note, 08,030, 40, 90.

0,030, 40, 90. We will be discussing hair. Boom. And then we'll probably get Christmassy for the next few weeks. So let's just get one in first. Pao, pal, pal. Love you. Love you. Thanks for making me cry today.

Bye! Sorry. No, it was good. It was good. I've got to cry. I'll miss me. I've got to figure out how to do it. Oh, okay.

I'll get you there with hair next week. I did actually feel a little bit emotional when I was speaking about something else and I just kind of like walked through it. Sorry. I'm also quite a cryer. Sorry. Yeah, yeah.

It's good. Thanks for listening to Miss Me. This is a Percifonica production for BBC Sounds. Ever wondered what's really going on behind the biggest celebrity scandals. From Justin Baldoni versus Blake lively to Kim Kardashian's sex tape lawsuit to Brigitte McCron fighting claims she was born a man. These stories dominate your feeds, but what's the truth? That's where our podcast, Fame Underfire, comes in.

I'm Anishka Matadowity, and each week we dig deep into the legal battles and controversies everyone's talking about with expert analysis and exclusive scoops. New episodes of Fame under fire drop every week. Listen now and subscribe on BBC Sounds.