Miss Me? - Listen Bitch! What Even is a Beauty Standard? (with Sabrina Elba)

Episode Date: August 31, 2026

Jordan Stephens and Sabrina Elba are back to dissect what society deems to be beauty. Is it subjective? Do we just mean healthy? How much have social media filters skewed what we think of how we look? As always, there’s a lot to unpack.Next week Miquita is back with Jordan and after your voice note questions on the topic of RITES OF PASSAGE. WhatsApp them to us on https://wa.me/447849030711Get weekly recommendations for things to watch or read or listen to from the Miss Me? Library every Friday at patreon.com/missmeFollow the show on instagram and TikTok @missme.4evaYou can contact Miss Me? on email at [e-mail] Producer: Natalie JamiesonTechnical Producer: Oliver Geraghty Assistant Producer: Katie-Louise Buxton Video Editor: Noah KleinProduction Coordinator: Tom JacksonExecutive Producers: Ellie Clifford & Dino SofosMiss Me? is a Persephonica show Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

All right, so now it is time for, actually, Sabrina, I want you to introduce someone to say, welcome to listen bitch. Okay. Now it is time for welcome to listen bitch. Did I fuck about it? Yes. It's not good welcome to listen bitch. It's good listen bitch. But you know what? It was so endearing that you said it. We're just going to, it's time for welcome to listen bitch. Listen bitch. We did try and tailor the topic slightly to you this week just because I think like I say you speak very passionately about your about Sable. So the topic of this week's listen bitch is beauty standards. First question will enter your ears now. Hello Jordan and Sabrina. My name is Steph. I live in North Yorkshire as a woman turning 50.

this December, I'm aware of the pressures around beauty and ageing for women. It feels almost like the media can be unforgiving, like one gel or a few grey hairs or a wrinkly knee can suddenly be presented as something that needs to be fixed while an ageing man is more likely to be described as distinguished. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Is there a way to embrace ageing without feeling that you're expected to. to surrender your appearance or, and is there anything wrong with a tweakman if it makes you feel more comfortable? Ah, that's good question. I guess a strong star.

Thank you so much for asking that. Yeah, super strong, smart. But I feel with how well you ask that question, my love, you know the answer. And it's so, age should not define you. What is the, like, corny thing to say? It's just the number. But like it's so true that the beauty industry, one, I think just, you know, society, depending on where you are, most places in the world, probably. And social media, like, is so, it's just everything is measured and calculated and against you as a woman now.

And I recently saw this press tour that Hallie Berry was doing with Chris Hemsworth, actually, for that Crime 101 film they did. and she was turning 60. And she pointed out that every interview, they'd ask her about her age and never asked any of her co-stars about her age. And it was like they were trying to, it was almost like a box that they were putting, well, you're a woman that's of this age doing this.

So you are, but then it's totally fine. And like I hate boxes. And to me, things like that just sound like another box. So absolutely not. Age shouldn't matter. And unfortunately, the beauty industry preys on women who are deeply affected. by all the things that they're tuning into and hearing and why wouldn't they be affected.

I admittedly am affected. I have gray's. I'm dying my hair now. How annoying is that? Like, I'm like, when I was young, I used to glamorize it. I'm like, oh, I'm going to be like storm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, and now I'm like, hmm, how much longer can I stay without tuning that? Like, yeah. It's something you've just, it's a unfortunate reality of our world that women are praised for their youth. And it's funny because I have a little sister who is eight, no, nine years younger than me. And I'm watching her, like, she kind of looks like me. So I'm like, I used to look like that. And it's like this constant reminder of like, oh, I can't bake under my eyes anymore. This is like a makeup term term because I've got wrinkles. Oh, shoot. Like she's not done. It's so funny how it's, I'm like, I'm watching, like I feel like I'm watching the younger

She's going to listen to this and go, yes. She feels old and I feel young. Yeah, damn. Yeah, there is a real worshipping of youth, isn't there? Like, I think that's one of the, I'd like to, I'd like to believe that it's like maybe changing slightly, but it's really interesting. I don't think it is because I think. It's getting worse, isn't it?

Yeah, I think it's getting worse. And I think it's also getting like almost unhealthy. Like, I think youth is being associated with, like, okay, I'm not going to know how to articulate this correctly. But there's this, like, kind of stereotype of Gen Z at the moment that's quite, like, almost airheaded and, like, lazy and, like, you know, and I feel like, not only are we being pressured to be youthful looking, but, like, almost now being this sophisticated. Yeah. It's sort of, like, there's a pressure to be ditsy. Like, what's happening to kind of like have like the Botox Brown be like, wait, what? Like I'm, no way.

For real. That's the, that's the, I have seen little posts about that kind of energy coming back. Yeah. And I, to me, that's a quite a negative energy. But also, maybe it's a way for women to kind of push back. Because sometimes these things can be coded in one way. And then, you know, actually be women just being like, I don't give a fuck. I'm just going to be how I am and whatever I want and I don't care.

And that's just how I am. But I feel like more. so it's becoming packaged into this thing of like be young and airheaded and I'm like that's so weird because what happened to like young people are the future young people the academics that are going to save the world like wasn't it that like you're a millennial as well I'm a millennial yeah yeah that we got spoon fed that yeah I know I know but I feel like I feel like Gen Z held on to that slightly gen alpha I don't know I don't know about gen alpha all I know is that there are there are definitely I mean, this isn't so much of a beauty standard thing,

but like this recapturing of like more of an analog world, I think is, is happening because of the extent of, yeah, like you're saying, like kind of almost discordance, that just, what? Like, duh, you know, like this whole thing about Jen Alpha not wanting to dance so much because they're so used to being recorded and stuff like that.

Like all that stuff sucks. But I will say that even the beauty standard thing, you're right about social media because I had a moment recently, which fucking blew my mind because, again, not the for beauty standards for men it was 100% in my lifetime has become way more intense nothing in comparison to women but just to even see that intensity rise in men is wild because you know I grew up in an era where it was like dad bods bald men like like none of that shit

was a problem if anything it was it was a continuous reminder that like men were just trying to gain power or money and then like ultimately what they looked like didn't fucking mean anything that was the kind of thing you had to get kind of maybe the kind of James Bomber's But if you looked at like how Hugh Jackman looked, for example, in the first, when he was first Wolverine, to how he looks now. Or like Homer Simpson. Yeah, yeah, Homer Simpson. But yeah, right. No, actually true.

Yeah, like kids' books, like kids shows, like recess, you had like a tubby kid, TJ. And I remember with the girls, it was always tiny waste. Like tiny, tiny, tiny waste. Everything's tiny, tiny waste. But like, that now I remember seeing, sorry, yeah, with Wolverine, the Hugh Jackman Wolverine was, if you look at that one to the newest Wolverine, it's insane. Considering he's like 20 years older, it doesn't make any. any sense that that's the current standard of the male body to what it was before as kind of a little bit soft bit dad bud. Yeah, I mean, youth and vitality fall into this like beauty

standard that's just never going to, you know, and AI that everyone loves bringing AI and shit, but like I remember what, what show was I watching? Oh God, I think it was like Buster Rhymes. I can't remember where we were. And his background video was AI women. Like you could just kind of tell they were like, like, AI women. And I was like, oh, they're so gorgeous. And then I was like, oh, fuck, I don't think they're real. Yeah, fuck, that's fucked. I don't even get my head on that.

Well, now we can't compete. Like, I'm never going to compete with that. So, you know, but also I do want to say, like, tweaks are okay. Like, I think people really hate on the idea of, like, women tweaking. And, like, that's fine because at the end of the day, if you feel good, I think you look good. Like, look how you want to feel. But do they, okay, but can I just quickly ask that? But can I ask, is the issue tweakments or is the issue the fact that women will

do a treatment and then pretend they haven't. But I, but I also think at what point, why do we have to share? You know, why is it a topic of discussion? Do you believe you, do you believe you should answer truthfully have asked? Like, pretending. Ah, okay, I think that's a slight bit of a gray area because it depends on the, it depends on the intention. If the intention is, I just don't want to tell you because I don't feel comfortable talking

to you or I want you to think this is real and then I want to further skew beauty standards by making women think that. That's what I mean. then that's a problem because if I'm going to act like I'm this age and I've never gotten Botox and that's why I just have no wrinkles because I put olive oil on my face. That's messed up and actually people in the beauty industry do do that. I promise you. And in the fitness industry, I don't know if you've noticed like there's a bunch of

beautifully jacked women who are taking testosterone and pretending they're in the gym every day. Yeah, that's what I was about to say. It's the same with the superheroes that like, here's my workout routine. Like, okay, does it start with steroids? I was on a social media app and I recorded a video and I was like oh that's cool I look quite good in that video that's dope

then I went onto a different camera and realized that the app had put a filter on me and I suddenly went onto the other app and saw like my ring like you know the parts of my face the blemishes on my face and I did have even as a man a moment where I went oh shit like like I don't know if I was comfortable

with my with my you know this morphia around how we look is like is so so so so real i i remember because i i was like 22 23 when snapchat was like really really popping off and i don't know if you remember all those snapchat filters they're like so so fake they're like they were wild yeah and the dog ears and then like and i would like forget how i looked And then I would look at the camera again, whoa, is that what I look like? Like, yeah. Oh, man, it's so, I'm just so thankful that I had a large portion of my life without. Without that shit.

My formative years without. All right, well, we have another question. I'm sure that will come up again for sure. Hey, Jordan. Hi, Sabrina. It's Tamara here. I am from Northampton. There's a lot of emphasis on European standards of beauty being a main influence into beauty standards.

And I wondered what you thought about that and whether or not you think it's valid or true. I read somewhere that particularly black people on maths have the sort of largest variance in how they look compared to any other race. And I think it's potentially what we attach is European beauty standards that is actually more about symmetry and human standards of beauty. but because we see it more often portrayed in white people because we see more white people and media, etc. Is it that we prefer Europeans done as a beauty, or is it that we don't actually process the vast features that many different races can have? And actually, it's just beauty in general that we're looking at. I actually want to disagree with that. I think it's more by design.

I think it's a bit darker than that. I don't want to think it's an innocent. It's more of what we see. And maybe that you didn't mean it to be innocent, but I think that kind of almost trivializes it a little bit because the European standard of beauty was forced on many women of color for so long without choice that it became almost second nature to kind of want those things like i think

skin lightning products are like a great example of that like they're awful for your skin i mean your liver like all the people women are getting cancer but it's just like which by the way is just juxtaposed by the way by the fact that many many women in the uk will fake town which i find which i find also wild yeah which is also wild which is so interesting because it's like Like for how long was it where we told that lighter skin you're closer to God or whatever? And then now everyone's tanning, like taking peptides to get darker. But then that's also like slightly a blink of an eye in beauty like like in human terms. Because for so long, yeah, because of history and colonialism and all the dark things behind beauty standards.

And black women being told to not come to work with their natural hair. Like I think it is so much darker than that. unfortunately it's still like yeah for sure even to myself i'm wearing a weave you know like at the end of the day like and and of course i'm going to express myself i want to express myself but uh straight hair has been something that i've always wanted from when i was a kid why is it that i didn't just go oh curly hair is the thing like why is that i think that is a lot darker it's deeper it's dark oh it's awful there's this portion because obviously i i you know i've the black women in my life, you talk about hair.

It's almost become like in the black community. It's almost become like a cliche of, you know, like don't talk to black women about their hair or whatever else, because it's fucking hardcore. And you go to different places in the world, it's different Rio, seem to have a very different relationship

black women had with their hair because there's probably a deeper and more solidified ancestral, like history there. When you're like removed from where you are and then put into a literal white place, like you wanted to assimilate, I wanted to assimilate.

I remember one of the saddest moments in my life for me personally, he was trying to get like green contact lenses and shit like that. There's a book, there's a part in a Satas Shakur's memoir, who's two-packed auntie, she was a black panther, and she talks about being on the run. And when she was on the run, she puts on a wig, and she gets on the metro in New York and looks around

and sees all these other black women in wigs. But obviously she's on the run. And then she had this moment where she was like, oh, you know, like, you know, like, We are, yeah. It's survival. Yeah, you know, and I was just like, so powerful. Maybe, you know, in a very simple way it was survival.

It was like. It still is. Trying to appeal to, yeah, an apex predator. Yeah. Yeah, I think maybe not. I mean, yes, yes, actually. I don't know. Yeah, that'll make people feel uncomfortable, but maybe maybe that's okay.

Yeah. And also I think the other thing that's insidious is the picking and tutors. right of the elements of it so again black women like yourself had to witness what was considered cool to be an integration of black features into the female experience obviously with the rise of Kardashian suddenly people are asking for procedures to make themselves look fuller and blacker and and then I remember reading as well about um apparently back in the date do you hear about this with the Victorian women with the yeah yeah with the the dresses to that point like I think what's most

frustrating about it is I think there are women who do this a lot for the male gaze and then the male gaze turns on that thing and I find that also really frustrating so for instance if you're you're a black woman with like a naturally big behind although a lot of black women are getting BBL as well and then like something turns it into a trend or a phase and then and then I'm hearing tons of young black men going oh I hate BBL so now they're hating on that shape you know now they're hating on the shape that was like natural for so many women and that's where it just gets me it's like oh this is so annoying like why can't we just be accepting of the fact that there are different types of bodies and different type of women and actually I think at the heart of it like

if you're doing something for the male gaze you're doing something wrong and I think any boy is probably just happy to see any girl naked like I want to think that like they're not thinking about it as hard as we are well I mean I think yeah I think I think yes I partly agree with that. No, no, but unfortunately, unfortunately, I do think we are dealing with porn has only just become classified as an addiction in the UK and just, you know, just understanding the effects

of like these hyper people. Like, you know, porn is like these hyper people and then people are measuring themselves against these hyper people and then forgetting just that, you know, this is again, just off, before we start recording this, I've mentioned. Yeah. It's like going to watch Spider-Man

and then going, oh, I wish I had web slingers. I think I should have web slingers. It's like porn is a movie. I know, I know, I know. I know. It's not real. I know, I know. But no, people don't, people don't, yeah, I do think there's way too much pressure to be. That's such a mad point, though, that like it can end up turning back on the people who

naturally engage that body shape. And then what was, can you remind, and what was it that we were saying, that even in Victorian England, what was it? The shape of the dresses. So women would wear these sort of like undergarments. I forget what the name of the undergarment is. I don't know if it's going to come to me. Anyways, under their gowns to kind of give them this like big derrier style, you know, shape.

But then this is happening at the same time. The reason I brought it up is because you probably know the story, the Venus Hot and Tot woman stolen from South Africa for her shape, to put on display in front of all these people as like some test subject or like animal to be observed and looked at. and then that same shape as being like imitated. Yeah, it's insane. Oh, man.

It's a bustle. Is that what it is? A bustle? A bustle? No, they are, beauty standards are, are, are, and the fact that they change and they're fluid. And I think people just have to remember what, just a feel.

That's the thing, that's the thing that I would say to a young man. If we're talking about like bodies and whatever else, I think everybody, listen, everybody's entitled to be attracted to certain qualities in a person like that's that's fine you know I think there's some things that might be I think that for me in my head I imagine that like shapes and curves there's like history you know and to flip it you know I've I hear a lot of my my girlmates like yeah they might not know if the if the man is like a heterogorffind like if they might not know if the man is a great person but they might be drawn to a man with you know they might be broad or tall like

there are like I'm not totally against the idea that there is some kind of ancient you know I mean there's some kind of whole you know I mean there's some kind of hardwired, you know, that does vary. Yeah, yeah. I think you're totally right. Like, fuller hips potentially. Potentially. Potentially.

Yeah, like, sure. You know, like, I totally get that. But I think for so long, sign or beauty was like attributed to health and longevity. And I kind of miss when that was like, that's where our primal instincts are. You know, like, in Somalia, it was like a sign of beauty to have rolls on your neck. Like that was like, oh my gosh, she's so beautiful. She's got like rolls. because she had a bit of healthy weight to her.

Yeah, yeah, of course. Oh, it was so nice. Listen, this is a big thing. That conversation is huge. Again, we don't have enough time to get into it. But that conversation about like strength and like you say, vitality, like that is seriously big convoy because that is ultimately what everybody needs to feel. Like regardless of the standards, like strength, mental, fortitude, physical fortitude,

spiritual fortitude like that's the that is actually the dream that's really the trifect that we all have to go for and you can't beat that and how often do you hear like someone who's like insanely gorgeous or beautiful but then people will comment oh but it was like there wasn't really much anything deep to them or anything like it's like sometimes we spend so much time focusing on on this shell that we forget that you've got to fill it well that's that's that's a whole lot that we've spoken about that before actually we had um i spoke to um zawi ashton uh who uh who on here last week. I can't remember when the six ago going out.

Anyway, she's great. But when I interviewed Zawi years ago and it was when she was, it's actually, I actually interviewed her and the play that she was doing when she met Tom Hiddleston. But she,

she was in a dressing room and I remember so vividly, she said to me that like, she was so grateful that she looked weird as a teenager because she was able to develop a personality. Oh my God. And I was like,

I couldn't say that, but she said it. And like, I can't, I can't cast, listen, I'm not saying that like people who are pretty, when they're young, whatever, they're unable to. But I do some part of me. For me too, man, I, I wasn't walking around school as a top boy at all. I was, I was odd. I was like, I was the, I was briefly cool because I was in the football team and I was good at football.

But like, nah, I was not the top dog at school. So. I feel like there's, there's unfortunately a bit of truth. Yeah, in that. To what she's saying. And also in how people treat how people like, you know, how certain people look. They'll treat you a certain way. Yeah, you think you're beautiful, especially with young women.

Like I remember at the customer I started to feel a bit more beautiful. But like I was like a weird lanky teenager with like acne. And like, but I remember when I first started getting treated a certain way and like this like weird doors would get opened and thing. And then like it was almost like I didn't need to say anything. It was like just coming. It's a head thought. I was like, oh my God, this is so jarring. That's a head.

Yeah, if I was always treated this way, I'd be a jerk, a weirdo. Facts. No, it can be disabling. I feel like there's treats. It's actually mad. Like, it's actually, it's, it's, yeah, I've, anyway. I'm also just making my own head big right now. No.

No, sheena, come on, don't be silly. No, but like. This is video, but there is like, and people talk about like pretty privilege, but there is like a weird, what is pretty privilege? It's like the world just like having just weird obsession with the way people look and treating people. I remember in school like the boy that I thought was the cutest was the funniest kid in school. It wasn't that he was like, he was so funny. I was like, oh my God, I'm in love with him. He's so funny.

Like personality means so much. And I just think that needs to like our values have just changed so much. Or maybe they haven't. No, those I think I think the female gaze is different to the male gaze. I think like you know you can get like crossovers of both but yeah we're we're only really entering into kind of anything towards objectification in my lifetime anyway now which I'm kind of not like that because you know I've kind of been starved of it I guess most my life it's funny because you talk about no because you talk about it's it's one of these weird it's one of these weird again like

paradoxes where or juxtapositions where the pretty privilege is real and it can and in my belief privilege always comes with a price anyway. There's things that you are unable to experience because there's not enough friction to experience them, right? But what's so mad about that privilege is like on the opposing side, why we end up having these gendered conversations where you find like this whole corner of very angry men is because, you know, on the flip side, you can be an unattractive guy and like no one will look at you. Nobody will talk to you.

No one will even like, you know, your only interactions are transactional. It is like, can I pay for this thing? Yes, hello, have a nice day. So there's this kind of odds. There's a real darkness there. And then you get that rise of like, you know, toxic in cell culture and all this stuff that people talk about. Anyway, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about beauty standards.

We're going to have one more question. Hi, Jordan and Sabrina. My name's India. I'm from London. I have a little niece who's four years old. And me and my sister are making active, like, moves to basically not discuss things. feeling fat or feeling thin in front of her so that she views the world as people just having a body. And there's no negative or positive connotations to any of it.

People will just have bodies. I think we live in a world where we have been very fatphobic. I think we are still now, especially with celebrity culture around all of the skinny jabs that have come out. And we found that growing up in the early 2000s when like size zero was really sort of seen as this amazing thing, to be and how you had to be as thin as possible has been really damaging for how we see ourselves as adults and we're trying to stamp that out for my little niece and make sure that she feels comfortable in her own body as she grows up. But I just wondered whether you think does that sound like a positive idea? Do you think that more people are doing that or do you think that we are

very much stuck in what I would describe as a fatphobic world? Oh man, thanks for asking that. I think I completely understand the urge to do that and to protect a child that you care about from the reality of the world, which, as you said, is fatphobic. I don't think there is an escape of that. I definitely were seeing it now. Like, I feel like there's this, like, massive, like, floods of really, really thin people. Let's just to be honest. I'm like, I'm like, what is happening?

Like, everyone is so skinny, but we know what's happening. But I also think that the conversation needs to be had rather than avoided for me. Like that's always my school of thought. I think if you're going to avoid something, and my mom did that a lot with certain subjects, she's going to discover it another way. She's going to talk about it another way. And it's so like the classroom, social media, TV, everything is coming at her. So, you know, you can shield and protect someone, but it will happen.

and I personally think it's always better to have the conversations yourself and talk about, you know, what is healthy and what is healthy look like and why these conversations happen. And I always find children are so much more intelligent than we give them the credit to be. And when you start to have conversations like this with them, that they do go, oh, right, that's what's wrong with the world. And I can see that and I can understand that. But obviously, I'm not going to tell you how to a parent your child. But it's unavoidable, I think, at this point.

because I think you're pointing something out that is an unfortunate truth, that we are living in this weird fat-lobic era that has been around before, like you said, and has come back again. And I felt it in fashion. Like, I remember when I gained my happy relationship weight, as people do, you know, and I was like one-size. And I was skinny my whole life and then just naturally and then gained some weight when I was in relationship and eating at, like, really great restaurants all the time, which I was happy to do so.

Plus, I have an African husband who's like, yeah, it's great. You know, it's brilliant for me. And I would find myself, like, so struggling in the fashion world of, like, you know, sample size is being a form of, like, discrimination. Like, it started to feel like I was like, first of all, sample size on an African woman, it's already a challenge. Just based on the hips. It's wild.

So just based on the Shasha, is that what Idris's mom would call it? And, you know, all these conversations. So the world is ways. And there was this weird performatism in fashion for a while where there was a lot of plus size models on the runway. And then look. Well, this is, okay, so this is what I think is really interesting. It's like that I, firstly, I think that's cool what the parents are doing

because it just simply identifies, even just not with body weight. I just identifies a thing in parenting. I'm not a parent, but it's something I've read about and experienced where a child is probably more susceptible to watching how the adults treat themselves than they are to what the adults tell the child. So the fact they've even identified that is dope. That is true. Because a lot of time you hear about, let's say, like, moms mostly, or like, even

dad's two where it's like, oh, they're really encouraging to the kid and they tell the kid all these lovely things and whatever else. But like, all the kid has to see is that person harming themselves, like, in a various way, in private, or they don't think they're looking. and then the kid goes, oh, that's how you do being an adult, you know? So that identification is dope. I'm stuck a little bit. I feel like, you know, I'm not like, I'm not a Taoist or Buddhist, but like I do believe in this Tao thing of the middle, right?

So size zero, I think was horrendous. The idea of people or women having to be that skinny in order to be like considered a model or considered or whatever really think was very unhealthy. But I had this one experience, I can probably talk about it now because it was a while ago. But I was working in mental health when there was the kind of plus size, for the,

I'm a revolution, which your right to acknowledge has kind of quite quickly dissipated. But I think the reason why it has dissipated is because I interviewed a plus size model, right, for my podcast did it a while ago. And I am a big fan of health, like nutritional health. I had to find that out myself because of my own issues of my body. I had body dysmorphia. and I just like feeling like I have energy.

I don't like feeling lethargic, you know. And the biggest issue in the world, I'd say in the Western world, is food. Like the food industry is absolutely fucked, right? Oddly, the position I was role I was playing was to support, like, isn't it great that, you know, that plus size women can be viewed in a way that isn't whatever, but she was there like, yeah, and then I had to quickly eat like three hamburgers back to back and I did it. And it was just this stuff of like, dude, like, I don't think that's, good for your insides like regardless of what you look like i don't think that's so i think there's this

we're just i'm hoping we're we're kind of swinging right and we're just trying to find this middle where yeah you shouldn't be super thin but to the same extent it's really damaging for people to move towards obesity and i don't think that should be necessarily people have genuine health disorders right that like that that they can't deal with right they might have a disability they might have like, you know, something, I can't, I can't list all of the things that would incur, like, hormonal things that might incur, incur speedy weight, weight gain. But like, I really think, yeah, like thyroidism. Right, right, right. So it's not, so that, those people should never ever feel like unattractive. But it, but to the same extent, I think it's okay, like, I just don't know,

it's okay to, to strive to defy the food industry. Yeah, you know, and, and. Yeah, and, and and strive, I absolutely think you're right. I think, unfortunately, I agree with you. The middle is this notion that we all want to strive for, but it feels like the pendulum only swings one way to come back on the extreme other end. It's like, yeah, and that's what that era of like plus size was, like you're rightfully pointing out.

It's like it's always going to extreme. It's like why can't it just balance itself out of. People like Adele lost weight people were fuming. Lizzo lost weight people were fuming at Lizzo because Lizzo made the whole career from being like, let's celebrate this big. How dare she was like actually I kind of want to like. How dare she go to the gym?

What? And also, you know, like I say, that the pen is going to be the biggest conversation right now. I don't know if it's the same. I think it was last week. They've just released a pill form of something around Zem Pickle Monjaro. So yeah, so this is this is massive. And so we have to be very careful.

And like I say, if we can maintain the idea that, you know, there's a way to engage with these. processes and fight the food industry while still being healthy. That's the dream. Like and and and it's it pains me to say because it's expensive too. One of the things that scares me the most about DLP ones is because the food industry has made such a profit off feeding people an enormous amount of food they don't need. What are they going to do when everyone's on DLB ones are just going to make these foods way more addictive. Yeah, I don't know what they're going to do. I don't know what they're going to do. That's yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but how do you what do you think about

the conversation that with a child do you think of to avoid the conversation or do you think to have the conversation because I'm curious I don't know man because again like weirdly I've noticed with yet with little boys that are talking about like six packs to me like like in my family or whatever you know like and I'm like what like and they're like nine and I can't remember even being cognizant of the gym until I was like 14 15 so like this yeah yeah yeah I guess I guess I guess I guess mine would be a mixture of both yeah I would reinforce the fact that like we are not making choices in order to look a particular way we're making choices in order to make sure our body functions properly and then we can only hope that as a result of that that's the other part

this conversation as well as you know there's all this information coming out about gut health and it's like that should be what people to care about that's what people should care about you know yeah but annoyingly those conversations tend to favor people yeah that's the other fucker yeah yeah I don't know fucking healthy food is expensive. It's so fucked. It's so expensive. It's so fucked. Like that's the thing that breaks my heart.

You want me to spend how much on a yogurt? Like what? No, that's awful. I know. I don't know. Yeah, it's dark. But I don't know. I guess my answer is a mix of the two.

I think it's really cool that they're aware that their actions can affect the child. But yeah, I think, I think. Also, it's funny because sometimes I watch videos sometimes online where it's just like kids being brutal with adults and that's also funny because kids don't also have the same, you know, they don't have like the same understanding of like social implications. So they'll be like, mom, you're fat. And that's going to be like, yeah. It is funny.

Why is it funny? I was talking about this with a slightly unrelated, but of someone who's got a parent who's going through dementia. There's something beautiful about the honesty of kids that they remind that person because actually the last thing, the person. what dementia needs is everyone to be super apologetic around. Right, right. That didn't.

No, no, no. It's like pretend it's not happening. It's like kids are just like, I just told you that. Yo, it's like sobering. It's like kind of, but yeah, stand up comedians do they quite well, don't they? If someone has like an affliction or something or like. All right, final question for Sabrina and I on Listen Bitch about Beauty Standards.

Let's go. Hi, Jordan and Sabrina. It's Jai Jai from. Birmingham. I love the topic this week on beauty standard and it made me wonder why it is that we have a beauty standard but we don't have a personality standard. We have a certain set of rules for how we look but not necessarily a certain set of rules for how we behave or how we treat each other and I would suggest that we are judged more harshly on our appearance than we are on who we are as people, which is stupid.

So I wondered if you agreed with that. And if you had any thoughts as to why that might be the case. Thanks, guys. What a good last question. That's just like a question. It's an accurate statement. Really. It's just a statement.

She just dropped the mic. Just walked on. It's so true. Why? Yeah. We just are. It again goes back to the value system that we've built in Western society. It's just all skewed.

It's all wrong. We're prioritizing the wrong things. We care about the wrong things. Kindness should be like the most valuable thing that we attribute to people. Tenacity, you know, like imagination, like these things that are just like, you know, whatever it is to you, but to me, those things make someone really interesting. Like, personality has gone, lait. Like dude, like, we're at a point now where it's, it's, it's, people are impressed by somebody who asks questions.

Like curiosity is, is, is, has become of that, you know, I would, I think, I think, I think, in my head, I was just thinking like, why is that? Why is that? And I guess we live in a world where, I guess, things are measured by scarcity, right? Scarcity and the ability to make money. So for women, not so, weirdly, not so. much men you can't really make so much money as a beautiful man but like you know you can I guess make money I guess so people think oh that's a value I don't know it's like all very shallow isn't it's all very like capitalist and and and but so with personality it's like you know one of the

one of the saddest things in the world I think is that like even being a caring person isn't isn't seen as a commodity you know the kept most caring people in our society and even paid anywhere near what they would be you know like teachers carers like communication community workers, they're not paid that much money, but they are actively, obviously, they wanted to engage with the community. So I guess that's why there isn't this standard, but I do think it's going to become that way because like, my God, like, for people to be impressed by someone asking a question or just like showing a modicum of interest in a person's life, like that, that's, for that to be scarce and suddenly valuable.

Oh, it's kind of sad. Yeah. Okay. Just having a thought, Do you think, because I'm from Canada, people always like, Canadians are so friendly. Like, I hear that a lot, especially in Europe. Like, everyone's like, oh, God, that's why you're so friendly. You're Canadian. And I even joke about it now. Someone says, you're so nice. I'm like, oh, well, I'm crazy.

I feel the part of why that is, is because the population is so small. I'm in Australia, and people are really friendly. I think because the population is small. I think we get to a point where we overfill cities. and people just like lose patience for each other. We almost dehumanize each other because there's too many of us. I've got this weird theory about that. Like, because you always hear like people from London say,

oh, people up north are really nice. Why are people up north so nice? Is it? Yeah, there's something about. You lose the value in each other, but also I think it's like the amount of, it's also the amount of energy it takes to maintain a large city. I don't even necessarily think it's so much like,

Yeah, like your rent and you have to work two jobs. People. Yeah, but hold on, where in Canada are you from? Vancouver, BC. I think that's why I'm such a tree hugger. I'm a tree hugger. I literally am a massive tree hugger. No, it's funny you say that because I said on this,

or miss me actually, I actually had a really horrible interaction with a Canadian. When I arrived in Montreal, it was really bizarre. Well, I had the balance of both. I had someone who was fucking rude. I was born in Montreal, so I'm going to apologize on behalf of, of all it was fucking cold i'm blaming the car that's just what it was just so cold that people were just

fuming with life miserable but you know what's funny about montreal's we say it's the most european city in canada the europeans listen it's it's not because i was going to say it's not just london france and paris has an awful reputation for people just being fucking rude yeah there's there's i don't know if it's the amount of people i don't know i I feel like it's, I personally think, sure, like, you know, like, that I definitely feel more at peace in just like smaller, more digestible spaces. Recently I've been traveling into the villages around Britain and like the more scenic places like the Lake District, Pete District,

I'm there as much as I can be because I find nature really soothing. But I also feel that it's actually the, it's the pressure of comparison for me. I find that people are constantly dissatisfied with where they're at, in cities because they're constantly reminded of what they could have, you know. Like, then with social media, do we not all have those reminders regardless of where you are? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Social media amplifies that too. But if you're in, so if like, for example, I had just been in Thailand before I went to Montreal, so it was a big vibe switch. It was like summer to winter and then, and it was really fucked up. But I do remember, you know, like that's not a rich, rich country. You know, the way I was, the people were working crazy hours and, you know,

I have obviously had like a rose-tinted view on it, but I do just remember the vibe of the people. It's more like, I guess they are surrounded by beauty anyway in that they live in a gorgeous place and these gorgeous islands. And also, I just don't remember seeing, especially on the islands, right? I don't remember seeing like big cars or big significations of affluence. Whereas in cities, whether it's like, I don't know, like Jamaica or whether it's in. it's, so the cities in Jamaica,

whether it's like Kingston or, I mean, actually I've had Kingston's lit, to be fair, but I mean, I know there's a spot in Jamaica where you have like these kind of like cornered off neighborhoods or maybe in Lagos, you have like these kind of, you have like the place near the island or whatever. It's like these spaces where people know that people are living a better life, you know,

or better in inverted commas, like through a capital of this lens. So I feel like it adds to this tension where people are just like, you know, the guy who almost had a fight with in Montreal, he seemed like he was in the middle of a business meeting, you know? That was the frustration. It wasn't just like my, I was just like near a person who was having a bad business day, you know?

Right. And you're surrounded by these towers. I remember being overwhelmed in Montreal and Toronto. I was like, fuck me. These buildings are huge. These are big buildings, you know. People are doing their, they're about their business. You know, this is like generational.

So I don't know, that's my, yours is the people. It might be that might be true. But I think, I think, right. raise to like the obvious class divides don't help um the values and big cities don't help um but i do i do think when you know your neighbors you know your neighbors names that there's a humanization that happens as opposed to like the so the blindness to all the faces that it's like this person i'm bumped into i'm going to tell them to f off i don't know them from adam and as opposed to like it's just understanding the community it's understanding the community yeah and uh how do we even start talking about this oh

personality. I just wonder if like, you know, capitalism, city structures, all these things, these underlying things that are happening at the same time are the destroyers of personality, less maybe than us. I don't think any one person if you ask them would want that reality. But I think we live in these structures that don't, it doesn't make sense to even care about these things, really. Like, we're all trying to survive. Well, it's very separate, right? It's a very separate identity it's like we're not having to we have the choice to to avoid the the small discomfort that might come with meeting a new person or going into social spaces or getting rejected like you know from an advance or that's where I think I built my curiosity in people is I just

happen to have a childhood with my mum where I was just in all these fucking crazy-ass rooms because my mum was just a butterfly she would just she had the most honestly the most diverse group of friends of all crazy walks of life's like rock stars and like recovering addicts and and like witches and and like I'm gay men and gay and gay women and like you know I used to have a friend who was like a big butch lesbian in a wheelchair like honestly it was it was like honestly I already know I love your mom because yeah yeah yeah she had the most of crazy it right so like I remember and I've said this before but I say again like I remember like when I then engaged with a more close-minded outlook on people and the world and also sorry and also I lived on

an estate right so this is one of the typical things of London if you live on an estate in London you're engaging with like five six seven different cultures you know I had like my neighbors were Somalian Nigerian Cypriot Greek fucking you had Linda who was like just just like what she was British at the bottom, like there was, there was a Caribbean, Jamaica, whatever, it was honestly, and it was only as you get older that you begin to see those divisions, you grow up in those spaces and everyone is, everyone is Irish as well. And so often when you have these conversations around, you know, immigration, da, da, da, it's rarely people who actually lived in, in those working class areas because you know, you do actually know your neighbours because you're, you're living

in the same fucking block as then, you know, it's only, it's only when you kind of step out where it becomes a little bit more separate. But, um, Yeah. It's true. It's just, it's so funny how you can have conversations about beauty standards and then unpack everything. I know. No, but the personality standard's real. I think I feel, I think, look, my, my thing I'll say on this, we say it all the time.

It's actually on my wall. But like, if anybody's asking for what I think should be the most valuable personality trait, this is the thing we should understand. And I'd love you to, to add one to this and then we can finish listen, bitch. But curiosity for me. number one number one personality standard for a person like I really truly believe

there's pretty much anything in life can be dealt with through curiosity authentic curiosity relationship issues like divisive political issues like just ask yeah 100% I'm in look you don't have to convince me of that

I completely agree because to me that curiosity means openness so important to be open and openness leads to empathy I think it's so important to be empathetic of everyone's side of the story. I'm so in that school of thought. Like you couldn't have chosen a better word. And humor.

Humor is a good one. I love, look, I love that Idris is funny. He's silly. That's my favorite thing about him. He is silly. He is curious, but my favorite thing about him is that he's silly. He is silly. Did you actually think people know he's silly?

No, I feel like people don't realize how silly he is. He's always playing a villain or something. I know, he's like, the silliest guy. I know, he's like, scratching his head and like, Oh my God, that's so fucking funny. My God. I didn't even, yeah, anyway.

So funny. Look, Sabrina. These are amazing questions, by the way. You obviously have like one of the most amazing, most engaged audiences. They're don't. All those questions really made me think. So I just want to thank everybody for asking

and going out there and asking a question. That was amazing. Well, look, that is, that's a compliment and a half guys you heard that from sabrina abe and that is that is true we've we've gone on many journeys or miss me but one thing we have definitely noticed is this this uh very engaged and and like consistent fan base who we will be there's there's going to be in a subsection of that fan base he also subscribes to the patreon and sabrina to let you guys know Sabrina will be doing her patreon submission to the the miss me library um so if you are subscribe to our patreon big up if not get

involved obviously don't want to miss out on it and see you soon. Speak soon. Thanks for listening to Miss Me. This is a Persephoneka show.