Miss Me? - Listen Bitch! You Can’t Just Fix Me!

Episode Date: December 16, 2024

Lily Allen and Miquita Oliver answer your questions about therapy.Next week, we want to hear your questions about LONELINESS. Please send us a voice note on WhatsApp: [phone]. Or, if you like, send us an email: [e-mail] episode contains very strong language, adult themes and discussions about disordered eating. If you have been affected by any of the issues raised, you can find support via the BBC Action Line: https://bbc.co.uk/actionline/ Credits: Producer: Flossie Barratt Technical Producer: Will Gibson Smith Production Coordinator: Hannah Bennett Executive Producers: Dino Sofos and Ellie Clifford Assistant Commissioner for BBC: Lorraine Okuefuna Commissioning Editor for BBC: Dylan Haskins Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

Hello, Lily Allen and Makisa Oliver here. We are very excited to announce our first ever Miss Me Live shows. After a year of chatting to each other and sharing our lives on the podcast, we're ready to get in a room with you, our lovely listeners at London's Hackney Empire. The first date on Thursday the 6th of March 2025 has already sold out. But don't worry, we are doing a second night because we're so popular on Friday the 7th of March. For more information and details of how to get tickets, head to bbc.co.uk slash Miss Me.

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. This episode of Miss Me contains very strong language, adult themes and discussions about disordered eating, which some listeners might find upsetting. Hello world and welcome to Listen Bitch. Feels really good to say that. Haven't been able to say that for a few weeks. Having to let my mum say it and that mate of yours, it's nice to reclaim Listen Bitch

for myself. Did you enjoy Listen Bitch without me? Was it a different kind of experience? Um, yeah, it was. It was a different pace, you know? You have a certain style to you. And it was quite pacey. I enjoyed the pace of Kyle. Your mom and your pace is quite similar. And that's probably quite unsurprising because you communicate with each other quite a lot. Do you know what my mom said about you? Okay. She said that you've become a really good broadcaster.

And she said from one broadcaster to another, I feel. Excuse me. Excuse me. I'm a podcaster. No, don't. I can't. You are a broadcaster. Don't call yourself that. And I am a podcaster. All right. Podcaster.

You've become an incredible podcaster. I'm not ashamed of being a podcaster. I'm not ashamed. Neither am I. OK, good. I am bit. No, I'm not. But it's good to be back home for Listen, Bitch. Today, we. I am bit. No, I'm not. But it's good to be back home for Listen Bitch.

Today we're talking about therapy. My darling therapist, who I won't name because it's not the place to name my therapist, I don't think. She deserves her privacy too. She said, I think with this podcast that you do with Lily, I think it's a little bit like performative therapy.

I was like, um, there's nothing I can do about that. But yes, I agree. Definitely. Especially listen, bitch. Especially listen, bitch. I mean, I think that all of my creativity and creative output is performative therapy. I find it really hard to have like honest, truthful, vulnerable conversations with people that I care about and I find it much easier to do it with a mic to strangers

and also in music. It's just easier for me. Okay, well this is double therapy then. Wahey! A therapeutic space discussing therapy. Oh my god, we're going to get deep. Let's have our first question for today's Listen Bitch. Hi guys, my name is Grace. I am formerly from London and now I live over in Hong Kong, which is where I'm currently listening to you from. I am sending you this voice note because your new subject is therapy. Now, I just recently started therapy. I emigrated to the other side of the world and then went through some really big life-changing stuff. So, it was recommended that it be really good to have a chat because otherwise taking, you know, San-X isn't always

the way to get through. Anyway, I started with this therapist and I really found myself not being honest at all. It was like I didn't want to be called out on any of my shit. So I just lied about all the stuff that I was struggling with because I just like to be told I'm doing well, which is ridiculous because I needed to go for a reason. Now I'm trying really hard to be honest with my therapist, but it seems like such a waste of money sometimes because I know I'm not. But I'm getting there and I've started some art therapy now which is a bit different. But my question to you is how do you feel about therapy? I mean is it a really confronting experience for you as well? Is it something that you enjoy? Do you come out

of it feeling good or do you walk away thinking I was not honest at all? What a waste of time. Thank you so much for everything that you do. I absolutely adore, adore, adore the podcast. Grew up with both your music and obviously Miki to being on TV and it feels very much like part of my childhood every single week, so thank you. No, thank you.

That's a very common early therapy habit, I think, going in and, like we were saying, being a bit performative and using that time not very wisely. It's sort of like writing in a diary when you sort of first start writing it and you realize you're writing it with the notion that someone will read it and that's kind of it's the same kind of dance but I think you quite quickly realize that it's not going to get you anywhere. It's quite a difficult time for me to talk about therapy because at the moment I'm hating it I have to be honest finding it very difficult and I've um I'm kind of remembering the swan song early days of when I really was enjoying it.

I'm trying to get back to that place. I'm finding it really difficult at the moment. So I haven't been leaving sessions feeling very good. Which feels like shit to be honest, doesn't it though? Yeah. You've had quite a few different therapists though. I've had sort of one therapist for the last five years. Yeah, I've had a lot of therapists.

I've had a lot of therapists. I've had a lot of therapists. Are you in therapy right now? Am I in therapy now? Yes, I'm in therapy now. I have quite a funny story about how I got my therapist. So when I moved to New York, Henrietta, my godmother, is like a very well-connected person and knew lots of people in New York.

And I said, I'm moving to New York and you put the feelers out and see if there's anyone that could be my therapist? And she was like, yeah, yeah, sure. So she emailed a couple of friends of hers. She said, my goddaughter's moving to New York. Can you recommend anyone? And it was sort of in COVID, so people weren't doing in-person sessions, they were just doing

Zooms. And so I connected with this woman. She sent me like an email, like long-winded email, which obviously I didn't read, and offered me a time. And so I started seeing her and I really liked her. And then about a year and a half in, I needed to get prescribed some medication. And so she referred me to somebody from her office

that was a psychiatrist, and I turned up at the office and it was like all little baby chairs and like, and like abacuses and like books for children. And I was like, this is weird. And when I went to go and see the psychiatrist, he was like, you know, obviously we don't usually, you know, deal with adults, but because you're Anne's client and blah, blah, blah. Anyway, I then went back to Anne and I was like, are you a child psychologist? She was like, yeah, I told you in the email I sent you right at

the beginning that I don't usually see adults but because it was COVID and it was complicated, I could make an exception. So basically, Henrietta's friend had assumed that when she said God daughter, God daughter meant child. And so she recommended a child psychologist. And so basically, I'm still seeing a child psychologist. So this is your therapist, a child. Is that beneficial? Yeah, I think it is actually, because it helps with, you know, with my kids and my child rearing. But also, she would know how to talk directly to the traumatized child within,

which is the person we're all trying to heal and talk to the most. I think this is genius. Yeah, it is quite good. This is good because I did an exercise once that was with toys with my therapist, and I really enjoyed it. I had to make someone that was causing me pain like a fire engine. And then someone that I could rely on was like this weird kind of action hero man or whatever.

And we just sort of put personalities on all these figures. And I found it really helpful. In the same way that I find really good life lessons in like Dr. Zeus books and like children's folklore and fairy tales. I think that actually the things we were taught as children is like the big hard lessons of life in these really simplistic ways, which is what we kind of need sometimes as grownups to just like have it. This is

genius. This is what I want. I would much rather. Definitely. Definitely. Because the adult me is totally fine. It's just this fucked up kid inside that just like cannot get healed. I think the fibroids going has helped. But yeah, this is something that there might be something in this. Got to look after little Makita. Quite. But I will say about therapy and lying, I don't think that I lie in therapy, but I do often not talk about things that I should be talking about and it's not intentional. So like for instance, you know, I've been going through a tough time over the last few months and my eating has become a real issue.

And you know, my therapist and I talk about it and she says, you know, how long has this been going on? And I have several, about three years really. She was like, okay, why haven't you mentioned it before? And I, and it's not because I have been lying about it. And it's just because it hasn't seemed at the top of the list of the important things that I need to talk about. Yeah, but why is that I need to talk about. Yeah, but why is that? But obviously it is.

Yes, exactly. So I'm not really very good at doing the bigger picture. I wonder if there's a sort of something to do with my sort of ADHD as well, is that I don't link a lot of things. And also my body and my brain are two very separate things to me. I know a lot of people have, you know, I feel very, those two things are very connected to each other. With me, it's very different.

I spend a lot of time in my head and not a lot of time thinking about my body. Yeah. And that's why I was trying to talk to you about anatomy last week, because it's a real release and freeing thing to kind of live in the other part of your human shape or whatever. Like, get out of your head and just like go hang out with your liver and your kidneys, because they're also there working, keeping you alive. This can be a fucker, the brain. It's funny because like, you know, I'm really not in a great place mentally at the moment. I know, honey.

And I'm not eating, but I'm not hungry. I obviously am hungry, but my body and my brain are so disconnected from each other that my body, the messages of hunger are not going from my body to my brain. I'm not like avoiding food. I'm just not thinking about it because I'm so in my head.

My body's like, you know, a few steps behind me. But you know, the awareness of that is one step closer to healing. I know, I'm trying. I know. I know you are. Let's not waste all our sad stories. We've got a whole listen bitch episode. Let's keep some of this intense misery for other questions.

Can we make therapy peppy? I doubt it. Let's have another question. This is Annabelle from Amsterdam. Absolutely love the podcast and I hope that you're feeling better. I wanted to know, quick question, what are your thoughts around dating therapists? I believe it was Matthew Bellamy, the singer of Muse that ended up marrying his own therapist. And I don't know, also on dating apps when a guy writes down that he is a therapist, want to match but there's a part of me that's a bit scared about what it would be like to actually date a therapist.

Curious to know your thoughts. I'd love to. Wouldn't they be the most understanding partner ever? No. They'd use their power to mind fuck you. Maybe if they were a fucking narcissistic psychopath, But I think more to the point, like, I mean, I know some therapists that are not my therapists, and I know, like, you know, some ex-boyfriends of mine

that are now study there like our therapists. Sorry, which one? Fuck off. Oh, yeah, we're not going to put that in. But yes, him. Beep beep beep. Right. Right.

Maybe it's like being a broadcaster, everyone thinks they can be a therapist. Takes a certain type of person to think I'm the person to help people with their minds. Usually those people are not well. No! Usually those people are not well. No, but that's, if there was a boy version of my therapist, my particular therapist, I'd date him. Very understanding, very kind and gentle to me. But she is being paid. It would be very unethical.

Okay, next question. No, I can't believe Matt Bellamy, can I say this? I'm really confused that this man gets such hot chicks. I do believe him to not be hugely handsome. He must be bloody charming. And very talented. I hate Muse. I love Muse. Oh, God. I think...

Oh my God, I'm going to listen to Muse today. I'm excited. Okay. All right. Shall we have another question? Morning friends. Morning from sunny Sydney. It's Mike here. I am originally from Aberdeen Scotland, but now live in sunny Sydney. Therapy. Oh yeah, what a bang-a-run episode this is going to be. I cannot wait. So therapy has probably been the biggest life-changing thing for me and I just wish I'd started sooner. It took me until 47 to get to this point where I literally had to go. And it was a huge life event of my mom dying that made that happen. I'm just wondering if there was a big event or a situation that made you feel like you had to start therapy.

And what was that? Thanks so much for doing this podcast. You bring me and I'm sure so many other people so much joy. Keep going girls. See ya. I mean, I did. I remember doing family therapy when I was really little with my mom and my brother and my stepdad for a bit. Did you? That was my sort of introduction to therapy. I think it was when my mum went to rehab, maybe, we'd start doing therapy as a family. And then I'd say the trigger for me in adulthood for therapy was fame,

being famous, being written about all the time. Ah, yes, that old fucking nugget. Yeah, that old life-ruiner. I'm joking. Not a life-ruiner but a life changer so when you start therapy what when we were not early 20s I didn't use me Alice no one is just calling I just have to quickly say hi oh she ended it she ended the call well and that's why you're in therapy that's why I'm in

there sorry let me just call my therapist real quick I'm sorry, let me just call my therapist real quick. She keeps doing it. She calls me and then she just hangs up on me. I just go through that one with my therapist. She does not love me like I need her to. No, that's not fair. My mum,

speaking of mothers, was a very big advocate for me getting therapy. And it really pissed me off. I was like, you can't just fix me with this one answer. She was like, just get a therapist. And was like, and then what? And then I'm all done. I can't be fixed, mum. And that might just be who I am. Then I finally got a therapist. Because what was the catalyst? I started going to a therapist when I was still deep in alcoholism in my early thirties and it didn't work because I was going to sessions drunk and

that that is a whole different level of performative therapy because I was going there trying to pretend I had been drinking and That really did feel pointless like this is literally like eating itself as an idea now And because of how awful I suddenly realized going to therapy drunk was And because of how awful I suddenly realized going to therapy drunk was, that led me to stop drinking for a bit, for a while, and change my life. So, and then I got a good therapist who helped me keep changing my life. So, I think that answers the question. He did say that we bring so many people joy.

I'm sorry if there's not loads of joy in this episode, but therapy can be a tricky little fucker to discuss So that's why it's good that we are Would you like to ask for another question in this session? I would love another question, please. Hi, Lillian Makita. My name is Darcy I'm from Brooklyn, New York. I hope that Makita is doing much better recovered and I hope that you're both having a good week on therapy, I was trapped in a really problematic marriage. And I was panicking. I was in a state of panic all the time. I couldn't eat, sleep, drive. So I made an appointment with therapists. And she asked me what my biggest fear was. And I said, if he leaves, he did threaten to leave

and kept a bag packed by the door. And she said to me, well, what if he does? And I hadn't really thought of that before I hadn't gotten there. And so I went home and I thought, well, what if he does? And it kind of stopped that repeating thought of, well, what if he does? And it kind of stopped that, you know, repeating thought of, you know, well, what if he leaves? I had to think, okay, so he left, now what?

And I made a plan and it was like a breakthrough. Even if the plan wasn't great, I had something and it took the anxiety away and I could sleep again, could eat. So my question is, has a therapist ever helped you in a way that changed your life? Have you ever had a breakthrough?

And what was it? I love your podcast. Thank you so much. Bye. I fucking love a breakthrough. I've had a few in therapy. I love them. There's a good one in Sex and the City

where Carrie sleeps with John Bon Jovi, who's like a cool photographer, and they meet in the therapist's reception, and she's all like, oh, this is so great. She's there to get over another guy, and she's like, oh, this is great. I met this hot photographer, and dick-a-dick-da, and then they finally sleep together,

and in the morning, she's like talking about them both seeing the same therapist, and she's like, so what is your problem? What's your problem? And he goes, oh, I'm all fucked up about women. After I sleep with them, I have no interest in them whatsoever. And then she's like, and he's like, what are you in for? And she goes, I picked the wrong men. And it's like, I think this is what they call a breakthrough. So a breakthrough can be very freeing. And I love what you were talking about, about living in the monster thought and then getting to the other side of it. We have these terrible, what if he leaves?

What if I don't get that job? What if I lose that? And then you have to take yourself through the fire and then be like, and now what? And that is when you figure out who you are. So it's actually a beautiful gift of therapy to sit in what scares you the most, to realize you can survive it and get on the other side of it.

Breakthroughs, I live for a therapy breakthrough. I could really fucking do with one now, to be honest. That's why I'm still going. Just waiting for another one. I think it's time for a little break from therapy. I'm gonna go outside and have a little vape, have a little vape and then come back and talk to you. Then I'm gonna come back. Okay.

Let's have another question for this week's Listen Bitch, the theme is therapy. Therapize. Hi, Lillian Makita. Firstly, thank you for bringing Miss Me into my life and Listen Bitch, just because it is so fun to say. It's really getting me through some tough times at the moment. I'm Liv. I live in Leeds at the minute.

I'm from London, but yeah, absolutely loving the podcast. And on the topic of therapy, so I've had therapy before, but because it was COVID, it was all through Zoom. And I know now there's quite a lot of like apps with online counseling and stuff like that. And obviously, you've still got the option to go in person. So I just wanted to know, from your experience, have you tried both? Do you think there's like a benefit for one over the other? What is your experience online versus in person? Yeah, let me know. Excited. Bye.

Interesting. Interest diesel. I started in person and then with my great therapist and then lockdown happened a month later and we had to start on zoom and at the time I was like this is insanity, therapy of a computer and then I did that for like four years and then the other day she was like do you want to come back in? I did a very special part of West London and I really wanted to go have therapy back in the area that I was from and it's interesting I went back the other day in person I sat on the bench that I was on. And it's interesting, I went back the other day in person, I sat on the bench that I was on five years ago

when I was preparing to go in for the first time. And I'm very like that, I like coming back to points and seeing how much I've changed and how much the spiral of life, you know, how much I've risen. And it was really, really lovely to be in a room with her again. It's a very different experience therapy in person,

which is strange to think you, one would used to think that's the only way to do it. But I feel like you probably always done it on zoom because you're always traveling. I have never met my therapist in person. The child psychologist. You've never met. I've been in the same room as her. She came to London to see my play, but she didn't come backstage to say hi afterwards. I think she likes the distance. Yeah, she's not allowed, I don't think, Lil. I'm surprised she even came to see the play.

Yeah, well, she wanted to because she knows I'm brilliant. She wrote that fourth wall because of your gift, okay? Do you feel like you've therapized yourself a bit in that particular play? You had to get the shit kicked out of you every night. Is that therapeutic at all? Was it therapeutic to get kicked the shit out of you every night? No, I wouldn't say so.

It was funny, that play, it was so harrowing what the character had to go through that I think I was in a state of disassociation for most of it. I'd go out for dinner with people afterwards and they'd be like, are you okay? And I'd be like, yeah, I'm fine. And I was like, you seem really like distant and far. And I think that it was so much to take in that I had to sort of disassociate. And then there was this one time where somebody in the front row was having an epileptic fit, and I had to sort of come out of character and be Lily Allen on the stage and Kachurian, which is the name of my character, at the same time. And I came off stage and I just started

crying. I just was crying and I couldn't stop crying. And after about sort of 20 minutes when they'd, you know, help the woman out with the thing, and I managed to get through the rest of the scene. But when I came off stage, I cried. I was just, I, and it was about two weeks of just crying. And I think it was because I had separated myself from this character in order to be able to, you know, portray her and also not, you know, damage my own mental state. But in that moment, I was forced, you know, portray her and also not, you know, damage my own mental state.

But in that moment, I was forced, you know, was out of my control. I had to be both people at the same time. You were there, yes. In the same minute. Yes. And it just unleashed all of the sort of trauma that was associated with the role. It was really strange. But don't all actors have to go on a bit like that? Like if Anthony, you know, Tony Hopkins is playing Hannibal Lecter, I imagine there's some disassociation that needs to come with that four month shoot. I mean, I guess it depends what your technique is.

You know, lots of people are method. So maybe Anthony Hopkins was actually, you know, going out eating people. Feasting on Chiantian brain. No, I don't know. And also I don't know. And also I don't even know if what I'm telling you is the truth. It's just my theory as to as to what happened. Yeah, I think the way we can exist in certain places is to be parts of

ourself and when the other part comes charging in, one does usually break down. Sorry, in therapy, I've been doing a lot of talk about the different parts of myself and trying to like get all these crazy bitches to just find a bit of peace And they just um yeah, no we're getting there we're getting there also I think it's important to realize that one is never fixed And if you start anything like that futile, it's recovery what no one is never recovered Oh my God. Anyway, let's have another question. Hi guys. I'm Dora from Romania, sending love to you. I love your podcast. I could listen

to you all day. So my question is, actually, I've been to therapy a few times and I've had two therapists so far because the first one I didn't feel her and she didn't feel me. And I think it's hard to find therapists that suit you and it's even harder to realize that your therapist isn't working for you. So my question is, did you have any therapists that didn't suit you and if you did, how did you realise they weren't the good match for you? Thank you, bye. Brooklyn, Romania, Australia and England. Bloody hell, this bitch gets about.

Lily, why don't you start? Have you had a therapist you just weren't feeling? Yeah, I think I've had a few. There was one therapist that I had in, there was this place, a Knightsbridge that I had in, there was this place in Knightsbridge that I went to and the guy that ran it was also in the AA, NA program. And I turned up to a meeting once and a friend of his said that he, you know, he was like, oh yeah, you see so and so. And I was like, what? Like, so basically this guy, this therapist I was seeing, had told somebody else that he was seeing me

and this person saw me and I was just like... That's over. The end. The end. So, yeah, trust is obviously a huge part of therapy and I felt like I couldn't trust this person after that how fucking unethical I'm seeing Lily Allen that would be a goodbye uh from me but also I think it's important to not know uh what you sometimes you get given what you don't know you need a friend of mine because the place I get therapy is a really special place where people are

being taught to be therapists at the same time so there's a lot of kind of education and knowledge happening within the building and different kind of practices being talked about and discussed, as well as the people that are slightly higher level that you go see. And they let you come in and see a few people and then you pick whoever you're vibing with. I was lucky the second person I loved, but I thought I liked the first woman who was sort of middle-class, posh, white woman. I thought, okay, this is exactly what I want. And then that is not at all what my therapist is. And I didn't know I needed that.

And actually, I have four friends who have gone to this place and they all got someone they didn't think they wanted or they weren't looking for, and it was transformative. A friend of mine got a gay Spanish man, and my friend is gay and didn't realise what it would do for him to speak to a gay therapist. So I think it's important to know when it's not right but also let your therapist and who they are, let them surprise you. You never know who you might need to be your therapist. Let's have another question please for this

week's Listen Bitch. We are Therapizing the Nation and in turn the world. Hi guys, this is Amy from Sydney. Love the show, keep up the good work. So in therapy sessions, are you aware that the therapist might know you professionally and do you feel exposed as a famous person that what you say in the sessions could be used in other media outlets or get leaked somehow. Thanks. Oh my god, that's fucking terrifying. Just realize what she said. No, I don't feel like that. I mean, I think I've, when I was in England, I was seeing

a therapist who saw other famous people. So I felt like safe in that sense. And, you know, my therapist that I see in New York, you know, I have to explain to them, like, you know, because obviously I have like a lot of trauma around fame and I, and it's quite embarrassing because they're like, she's like, who are you? This person's got some sort of like mental disorder where she thinks she thinks she's a superstar. I am massive. She's like, oh my god. No, you don't understand. I'm really, really famous. They're like Googling my name.

Who is this fucking maniac? No, that's probably quite good for you as well, because then you have to tell the truth to yourself about actually how famous you are and all that shit. I think it's important to be able to discuss that very strange thing. It's a weird thing to be. No one else understands this in our family. It's a very strange thing. So I'm happy that you're talking about how weird it is in therapy and I'm happy that it's not going to come out all our deep dark secrets. No, I think that would be deeply deeply unethical if anything was shared from that very safe space. As you said Lil, the reason it works is because it's a place of such trust. Shall we have a final question for this week's Listen Bitch?

Yes please. Hi Lily, hi Makita, I'm Holly from Cambridge. Just wanted to say how awesome I thought Kyle was last week and how like down to earth and lovely he seemed and chose a really sweet topic choice. So on the theme of therapy, before I ask a question, I am very pro therapy, but I just wanted to know if he'd ever had any advice or guidance

that had really backfired. I had this happen to me a few years ago. My therapist made me do all this work about kind of finding my authentic self, following my truth, finding out who I was. And I prioritized true love. So I quit my job and my dream masters in my dream city and plan to move across the world for somebody. And when I went to buy my tickets, I sent them to them and they ghosted me and then they broke up with me. So that went well.

And I was just wondering if anything like this had happened to you. On reflection, I guess I learned a lot. I learned that, like you said, Lily last week, I'm the cake and someone is just a cherry. And that it is really important to live your kind of honest, true self and priorities. But yeah, just wonder if it happened to you or anything similar. Thank you guys for this amazing podcast. It's been my therapy through some tough times this year and my friends

and family love to take the piss at you guys on my new besties. So looking forward to the live shows and just keep the good stuff coming. Thanks guys. Thanks. I will be your new best friends and see you at the live shows for sure. Um that's how that guy sounds like a fucking arsehole but I think you were chasing the wrong dream and so the advice was not incorrect. I think you just applied it to the wrong part of your life. Definitely chase your dreams. He was just the wrong dream. What's an imagine going to another country and being ghosted.

That is just despicable. People are disgusting. I'm so sorry you went through that. This is like not that I don't know why I'm saying this, but like a friend of mine who you know, I'll tell you who it is. I spent many years trying to convince him to do therapy and he finally, you know, did it, found someone and, you know, had like sort of six weeks of sessions with her. And then she just stopped turning up for their sessions. And he was, you know, sort of really

upset and beside himself and then went on Facebook and found out she died. Oh my God. Oh my God, Lily. Jesus, poor Beat. No, I know, but it was just funny because it was like, he'd really like, you know... He felt like he'd been abandoned by her. Well, and it took a lot for, you know, he's like, you know, a middle-aged black man that has never done therapy and opened himself. And you just couldn't write it.

No. He'd finally found somebody that he'd made a connection with. And then she just like did a runner on him. And then it turned out she died. Because the youngish or whatever the black man, I think, is the least likely person to go to therapy in this country. I don't know. I think there's some sort of barrier with, I mean, that's actually a whole other listen bitch category theme, but there is something about

the avenues not feeling open to a certain demographic. Yeah. And I would like to bulldoze the walls of that now therapy really is for everyone. If you can afford it, please do therapy as yourself but you know what my friend Tom Matty said to me yesterday he said I can't really get into that therapy space but I do love pool and I love pool as well and he said isn't that just my own form of therapy and meditation I was like absolutely wherever you find it people go rowing on the river below my house and I feel like I watch people find ways to therapize themselves every day that doesn't necessarily mean

sitting in a room with someone and talking about all of your problems and your trauma. I think there's lots of ways to find your therapy. That's how we'll end this week's episode of Listen Bitch Therapy. It's been an absolute pleasure having you back by the way. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And next week it's Christmas! It's fucking Christmas. I'm not being over the top.

So the theme's gonna be Christmassy. The vibe's gonna be Christmassy. Lily's gonna wear tinsel and a hat. We're gonna get her all peppy. Do you want to come as a Christmas elf? Why don't you do that? I might perk you up. Yeah, why not? Yeah, okay. I expect some Christmas spirit next week, Lily. Jingle bells, jingle bells, jingle all the way. Exactly. You need to listen to jingle bells. Loop. That's fine. And what we're going to do is actually we're going to ask for the Listen Bitch

for the Listen Bitch for the new year. Talk about looking to the future. And the theme for that new year's, new year energy Listen Bitch is Loneliness. And this is because it is of course a time of loneliness, Christmas and the preceding month of January hell but miss me is a space to be safe and happier and share more and feel like you can talk about difficult things like I find talking about loneliness quite

difficult but I think we all talk about it together we can hug each other in that cold month of January which we don't need to think about yet we haven't even fucking had Christmas so we'll deal with that later, but please send your voice notes to 080304090, that's 080304090. We will see you next week for Christmas! Yay! Christmas time, miss- wait let me just sing Cliff Richard. Christmas time, mistletoe and wine.

We will see you next week for Christmas on Listen Bitch. Bye. Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to Miss Me with Lily Allen and Makeda Oliver. This is a Persephoneka production for BBC Sounds. If you have been affected by any of the issues raised,

you can find support via the BBC Action Line. That is bbc.co.uk slash action line. Hello there. My name is Annie McManus. My name is Nick Grimshaw and myself and Annie do a weekly podcast called Side Tracks where we discuss the weekly music. And we thought because it's Christmas, we should go to the pub. We're having a Christmas party in our favourite pub. It's an Irish pub. Please feel free to come and join us. We have incredible guests. We have Joanne McNally. Yes. We have Mark Savage. Yes. We have Self Esteem and we have Femi Coelhoeso. So listen now on BBC Science or

wherever you get your podcasts.