Miss Me? - Men, Misogyny and the Manosphere | Live at LushFest

Episode Date: September 15, 2026

This bonus episode of Miss Me? Is brought to you by Lush.Jordan and Miquita take to the stage for a special live recording of Miss Me? at Lush Fest 2026 - https://lushfest.lush.com , exploring the rise of the manosphere, misogyny online and what it's doing to the way we connect with one another.Together they discuss modern masculinity, the impact of social media, relationships between men and women, and answer questions from the audience about how we build healthier conversations - both online and in real life.  This episode was recorded live as part of Lush Fest - a three-month festival taking place in ten Lush stores across the UK and Ireland, centred around the theme Reclaim Connection. A value central to Lush’s philosophy.  If you'd like to learn more about building healthier relationships with social media, visit www.safersocials.com for advice, resources and organisations doing brilliant work in this space.Lush Fest runs until October, with talks, film screenings, Logging Off Clubs and more opportunities to reconnect with yourself and others. Find out what's happening near you - including future Lush Talks events - on the Lush app. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

What's this shoot? Can I just say that was Sugar Babes playing and it was Lush Life and that was my idea, which I thought was fucking genius this morning. But we were meant to walk out to it so it didn't really make any sense. But I think it got us in the lush store space and I think the smell is a huge indicator that you are in a lush space. And it's lovely to do something where it smells so nice. The smell is phenomenal. I'm a big fan of Lush. And we're doing this as part of the lush talks. Lush talk. Lush Fess.

Jesus Christ, and I told you to read your notes. It's Lush Fest. Lush Fest. And it's been going on for three months. You guys do this around all of your stores. And it really, I mean, it makes a lot of sense to miss me and who we are and what, what our intentions are through conversation. This is about reconnecting with yourself and reconnecting with the world around you.

And today we're honing in on the Manosphere. So I don't know why you all. wouldn't it? Because that's just not his area at all. And anything about that. You never talk about that. And of course, and of course misogyny,

because it wouldn't be a party without misogyny. And just the way we connect with each other as men and women and at this kind of heady time, I don't know about you, but I had a fiery fucking summer that showed me a lot of how the way men and women

interact with each other. Okay. And I feel like September's that time. Let's start into that, McKee. No, let's not do that much. No, okay. this is also a lot this is in alignment with lush fest's theme which is reclaiming connection and lush

has been campaigning for safer online spaces for a long time i actually know about well i have a former and hopefully continued relationship with lush oh yeah yes we did a bath bomb uh like six years ago seven years ago uh as part of my whole i am whole mental health campaign i got to go to i think one of the o g lush spaces create create the bath bomb pick the smell whiffs off Shout out Zuella, YouTube Queen. It was 2017. She was already dominated by that point. This was a side quest for her.

This was when she was Queen of the World. And actually, what we were moving towards was a digital detox. That was our campaign at that time was to have a day every year, a national day where people were actively off of their devices. And I'm glad that you'll all be listening to this. Yeah, exactly. But not you guys, you're literally here. You want to find that more about Lushes, approach to being safe online.

You can visit the website, saferocials.com, and find out more information. So big up Lushfest. Thank you for the invitation. Yes, thank you very much. And allow us to begin. Are you guys ready? Let's talk about bloody men.

Let's talk about this thing that no one's ever heard of in the last four or five years. Right. So interesting that you said that four or five years because when we were starting to sort of structure this and think about what we wanted to talk about, I obviously wanted to go back. Because I was like, man, as phiz, like post-lockdown last four years. that's when I remember the word starting to kind of be more popularized and be in my consciousness. But actually it was in 2009, so it was a blog.

And it was mentioned then. So it's something that has been bubbling under and growing for a lot longer than I even really knew. And of course, it's become kind of an entity of its own today to the point where you have a whole career based around it. Yes. Well, no, I wouldn't say, my career has accidentally fallen. into the, I guess, opposing arms of the Manosphere on the basis that I was fortunate enough to not be radicalized by the online space,

but I was not fortunate enough to not be conditioned as a man in society to not, to be honest, do a lot of the things that are in the Manosphere talk about anyway. One of the things that I find most, I guess, confronting about our current attitudes towards some of the things that are being said and shed in the manosphere is the reality that

as a millennial, that was just the day-to-day existence of boys, girls, men and women. It was completely mainstream, by the way. I mean, I don't know if you've ever heard this rapper called Eminem, but he was pretty big at the time and his songs were, yeah. Actually, if you think about it, he was tying up his...

Yeah, ex-wife, constantly, and there was sexual violence running throughout all the lyrics. normalized, rape jokes completely normalized. And that was just existing. So that's why I think it's been like, you know, it's a good indication that we have like a greater level of self-worth and and awareness of how these things can spread. But, you know, like I say, I have not been radicalized by the manosphere,

but I was ironically already conditioned slash radicalized by just being a man raised as in that era. Yeah. Because we will talk about like your entry into it because it was the Guardian article that you ended up writing. thing. So at the time, so before that, because that was when, 2017, 17, right? So in 2009, me and our producer, and that were thinking like, what, did something happen in the world? Why was, why was this term coined in a blog? And Obama had just been made president of America, of the United States of America. And, and we were thinking about it. We're like, no, that was a radical shift. That was radical change. And what does radical change do? It scares the shit out of people. And when

people are acting from a place of fear, they want to unify, right? Like, if you're thinking about, like, gangs, for fuck's sake. So what is it, Jordan, I don't want to interview you, but I do actually want to know. You're going to do it. I'll flip it back. You get ready.

No, I know. You worry about that. No, you've already said. But what do you think was happening? What do you think that the kind of response was to that radical shift and change in the world? What do you think the change was in men's thinking for someone to even start using a word like manner?

2009 was one year after YouTube was invented. Oh shit. Well, I say invented. There's probably like beta versions, which ironically is the term used to diminish men now. But yeah, like that was the year in which YouTube began to take a stronghold. If you look like the earliest videos you can find on YouTube around 2008, like where they,

so that was now an online space where people of all walks of life could congregate and show each other things. And one of the things that some men, began to show each other was like pick up artistry that is like the entry level for a lot of men and a lot of young men who genuinely are struggling to figure out ways to you know receive attention from the opposite sex and i'll tell you one thing i as a 17 year old or 18 year old in my school in my college film project i studied media at brit school right and i had to i shot like the first part of a comedy a two oh well that's over then oh you're not going to I don't ever anything we're fucking talking right now.

Anyway, it was like a first part of a comedy that ended up in improvised because I didn't, I was supposed to write the scripts. Anyway, I did it with Harley, but it was called How to Pull Girls. That seems rather innocent. Wait, based on

a book that I bought, which was actually written by a woman, but I'm saying that that desire, even for me, I say even for me, like how many different, like a desire for a young man existing in the world, I had a thought which was, can I be helped in finding how to draw out to, you know, get women, female attention. The only thing that was kind of more I'd like to say in keeping with my current outlook was that I did find the pickup book that was written by a woman.

A woman. She'll know. That's right. Yeah. That's very huge. But I do remember some of the, do you remember some of the tips and they were just like, just doesn't work with an 18 year old boy. One of them was going to a cafe with a catalog, shout out of the Argos catalog. Oh my God.

remembers catalogs, man. Wait, this is extraordinary. Go into a cafe with a catalogue, right? Sit alone, near a woman you find attractive. And then you go over to them and go, sorry, I need to pick out a gift for my niece's

birthday. See, now we'd be like psychopath. Yeah. We'd be like, serial killer. I was there going, I'm 18. My niece, I don't know. Why am I going over like in, yeah, it wasn't the one? So what is this? 2009 pickups.

2007, 2000, 2000. eight was when I had that thought in my head, but I'm saying 2009 happens, YouTube is happening. And then people are going, how do I navigate it? And there's this guy who wrote a book called The Secret or something. No, not the secret. Sorry, the, oh fuck. It wasn't. The game. The game. There we are. That was the OG. And he like had him and Paris Hilton on the back and he was like, and he does not look attractive. And you're like, how the fuck are you there? And he's like, I'll tell you. And then he did. And he basically gamified dating. And it's abhorrent, by the way. And he's tried to reform himself since, but he's done

the damage already. No, I remember this book coming out. So then, of course, we have another movement, which is then the Me Too movement, which is suddenly so powerful, right? Like, for me, I remember thinking, like, this feels like a call to action is being made. This feels like actually something is happening.

Maybe because of the levels of pain, the levels of pain and devastation that were being revealed that had felt that they were, that had been sort of sat on for so long. That moment of kind of expulsion, felt like well something has to change here and I don't know how everyone in this room feels but like I do believe things did fucking change that day that day that the Me Too movement was the most prolific thing in the world and everyone

yeah yes and that's when you did the article yeah so I so Me Too was revived right there was like an original burst of it from a no I've got it a black woman called Toronto Barna Buk oh shit that was actually 2006 yes This is incredible. This is the first time someone says Me Too, like a decade before, even more than that. Yeah, yeah, 11 years. And then Rose McGowan, I would argue, was one of the figureheads almost the biggest figureheads in the Me Too movement, going for Harvey Weinstein, which resulted in his imprisonment, which is fantastic.

Or like his, I mean, there's various ways he should be dealt with, but anyway. And yeah, so that was like a big moment. And I remember it was the space being pretty open to conversation. Like, seeing as it was like this first purge of like, oh, what we can talk about this shit, like from women, I remember there being like an openness to men being like, oh, was that not cool?

And then, you know? Well, it kind of fucked up and fucked with everyone, I think. Yes. And so what happened with me was I had literally just cheated on my girlfriend and she left me. And then this popped off. And I was like, fuck, this is the worst. This is the worst.

the worst time. And also maybe the best time to be cheated on, maybe. Yeah. Because it was literally like, fuck man. And she was like, yeah, fuck man. I was like, fuck man. But then when there's me too built up steam, I was like, okay, so how did I get here? That was the question.

How did I get to a point where I fucked up every relationship I've been in? It's a great question. And also, why don't I know how to navigate this pain I'm in now, right? So the biggest part about this was I was so profoundly sad that the idea of writing an article that people thought was shit was like nowhere near the highest level of like boring. Yeah you're like whatever I was like there's nothing

there's literally nothing more painful than this so it freed me up to kind of write this piece about and I remember so vividly I wrote it out one morning 600 words 700 words for no reason really showed it to my uncle who I was staying with in Brazil because I thought it's really cool and unique to run away to South America and he read it and was like

this is really good you should put this in the paper and I was like really? And it was like, yeah. I went, cool. Send it to my friend Iona, who was working at a magazine. She did a little quick edit on it, like moved. I'm a bit, you know, I'm ADHD, so she put like the last paragraph first. Yeah. So like start with that Jordan, don't land on.

And then sent it to Guardian. And I remember so vividly they said it was a Friday. And they went, we're going to run this Monday morning. And I was like, okay, why Monday morning? And they went, that's a good time for this kind of article. So because I was in Brazil, there was a time difference. And my routine at the time in Brazil was I'd wake up, I'd drink a coffee, and I'd go to the car park and I would cry. Yeah, that was your morning.

I would cry and I'd smoke rollies back to back and just sob. I'd like go on social media. And then I got this like text. I got all these messages. And it just went crazy. It got shared like 50,000 times the article or something. My love my school bully was like messaging me like. And all the offers I ever wanted in life.

Like, do you want a documentary, a film? Do you want to write a book? And I was like, no, I want to like, stop crying. Well, I remember it coming out. I want my ex to like me. Yeah, but Jordan, that's really important. And I think if I have read Jordan's book, and I think this is obviously a prelude to what was coming in the book,

which is just the honesty of a man talking about heartbreak and pain and the feeling of living with betraying someone you love. I hadn't read that before. I'm sure that's been written by the hand of a man before. but I hadn't read it before. And I couldn't believe how important and knew it felt and what an anomaly it felt to read it, which is somewhat depressing.

But it was revealing and to be brave enough to reveal yourself in a way that I think people assume only women do. That was important. I remember thinking. Yeah, yeah. Look, I don't know. All I can say is that article, I think what was relieving or what opened up men reading it

or why they wanted to share it perhaps because it got shared in like men's help spaces because, you know, men have been, some men have been attempting to kind of help themselves. There's a thing called landmark or something that were sharing the article. But it was like, it was just identifying that there was something beyond us or something that existed before we were born that then told us a story immediately. And we all mindlessly believed it to our own detriment. I think everybody was unified by that.

And it's not like to relieve accountability, but it's certainly a much easier place than being like, you're an idiot and and if you don't even know yeah I am but I don't know how have I become an idiot or whatever yeah how have I become an idiot it's good but the but at the time what I think was worth noting and why I want to come to you next actually is that at the time there was about six months to a year where that conversation I felt was really healthy and cool and then what happened afterwards I don't know if you remember was it went on and on and on and then these other hashtags started to emerge oh god and the hashtags were hashtag manor trash oh yeah And then there was another thing where it became slightly and momentarily normalized to be like, I wish there were no men.

Right. And this, whether it's right or wrong, I personally understand where the anger comes from. And, you know, like, we're talking about centuries of oppression and disrespect and minimizing and whatever else. But what I think is worth noting is that what this did was begin a conversation in school. So not adults. Not adults who can go, you know, all right, you don't mean, you know, really. You have the all men conversation, not all men, blah, blah, blah. That goes back and forth.

That's an adult conversation, right or wrong. But I think the teenagers didn't have the context for any of that. So then suddenly the girls are leveraging stuff, you know, you're trash because you're this. Right. And unfortunately, in spite of its roots, I think, this is just my theory, this is what then was the Tinder for what became the newest researches of the manifest, the more kind of violent researches of it. Yeah. Because they had boys who had no confidence. context, no understanding, and importantly, no guidance from elders or men or whoever who was trying to do the work.

And now, you know, there's all the stats coming out saying that they hold more conservative views than even Gen Z, because they've grown up in this radicalized space. So it's like, it's that, Gen Z, sorry, slightly, but that's not the fault of people using that, certainly not the fault of women who were like angry, but it was interesting to see how that's turned. And that's why I'm asking you now. Yeah. This is like just under 10 years. over, like since that

real push. Do you feel in yourself that your view towards men wholly is one that brings you, like do you feel good? Or do you think the conversation around men is in a good place? Or do you think that

one offering or be, do you think that's too centered around men? I do know, I feel like I live in a really word duality at the moment, which is I'm angry than I ever have been with men and I worry about them more than I ever have. And a lot of the men in my real life who are either with, in relationships with my friends at the moment,

or men in my work life, I'm actually not talking about you. Do you know what I mean? To my face. What you're saying? Men I do podcasts with. Or I men I do podcasts with. No, but they're a mess.

No, they are. But they look like shit. No, but you know what? I thought that, and that's why when, that's why when Lil's, when Lil said that she was going to do the, put this album out that she'd been sitting on for so long. And we were like, okay, if we're gonna continue with Miss Me,

like, what's the future of it? And there was a lot of talk of like, let's get another brunette pop star that you don't know or have a relationship with. I was like, that's not the point. But it was, but you know what it was? It was like, why is that such a strange idea that there's this podcast essentially about intimacy

and intimacy of a friendship, but also the intimacy of revealing things to each other that we didn't even know and in turn revealing things with you, the audience and us all still staying in that space of complete fucking truth and honesty. It was, it made people uncomfortable that it was going to be a man. And that's one of the reasons we wanted to do it. I wanted to I wanted to, I wanted to show you, no, it's still a lot of comments. You just need to stop reading the comments. And replying to them. And I think that it's really shown me a lot about my relationship with men actually since doing this with you, Jay, because I knew Jay would be great

because because of this journey that you went through in this sequence of events leading you into this place of basically tearing yourself apart from the inside out. Constantly. And looking at every dark crevice of one soul, that's just prime meat for a podcast host. And I hope that what we've done and what I'm trying to do in my life is just fucking understand men more and give them. No, but honestly, rather than be so angry, because I think I have been angry for a really long time

with a lot of men. And I still am. And for me, interestingly, if you want to bring misogyny into the party, I think we should. That's what I'm saying. I think, like, I got actually, I did a talk on this recently, and one of the bits of feedback was like,

I really love the talk. Do you wonder if there's more space to talk about the recipients of the misogyny bred online? Right, okay. I'm thinking about more in real life. Yeah. No, it isn't real life. The gonsorgineers bred in the boys.

They're radicalizing the boys, the men, etc. But there were real life consequences to that mentality shift, right? Well, there's unbelievable real life consequences. I think we can't really sit here and not talk about, like, the case of Giselle Pelacott and see connections between all of this, because this wasn't about one man and his criminal, devastating activity and, you know, horror against one woman. It's about the surveillance.

grounding information around that case. And then of course, you and I had that conversation about that site. I can't remember what it was called now. Wait, are you talking about the thing that was called the Telegram group, where they're sharing videos of. Yeah, and it was like sign up to, you know, basically be part of like conversations about sexual violence and like. Oh, yeah, there was just these really, yeah, there's these groups.

There was a group about 1,000 men were sharing videos of them. Yeah, it's drugging their partners. Exactly. And I think that. And my friend Jess Davies just did a documentary about spy cams, which is a whole other thing, which is also terrifying, where men are like exchanging video that they're secretly filming in their house.

Yeah, so that question that you just asked yourself, sorry, not just asked in 2017, how did I get here? Yeah. I, I, it scares me, it fucking terrifies me, but I would wanna know why there were firefighters and doctors and fathers and brothers and uncles on those lists and also going to the house of Giselle Pelicott and raping her.

How did they get there? And that is a terrifying monster to look at. But as my mother says, you have to look at the monster under the bed to try and understand it and to minimize it or to change where we go from this terrifying place. I wish we were talking about a world

that has moved into a completely new stratospheric positive space. And I'm sure we have in some ways, but the fact that that stuff is so recent and raw, I find it, I find my anger. towards men comes up. Because of fear. Because of fear. It's fear and there's also, you know, we're in a tough space where we are shown it

immediately. This is another like added part of it where it would be I think intellectually perhaps dishonest to think that those things weren't actually happening 20, 30, I mean certainly. It's legal. It's legal to rape your partner in the 70s. So it's like this

that abhorrence has happened for a long time. Our access to it has shifted dramatically and our response to it has to be according. And I think, so I get the rage. I would like to say, I would like to believe that in spite of that being a thing that exists and the fact that there was, you know,

obviously a multitude of jobs. I think most of these men, in my opinion, are connected by the reality that as a man, you are born into a society that immediately strips you of your humanity. And so for those who have no access to like information and whatever else, not information, access to guidance and they're trying to disimpe,

power, it's horrendous. Like it's not like, and like I'm saying that like it's not just men who are stripped of the humanity, but I mean as in like that this association this is what Bell Hooks talks about, right? Breaking the mind from the body and then operating in that space. That's why the people you see wise into the top, very

heady, almost robot like psychopathic individuals, that's what the system creates. So you see that at all levels, right? But to the same extent, I was driving up north recently and I did see a car. Did I say this on the podcast? Maybe I was saw like an old Volkswagen.

But boy racer car and on the back said check on your mates on the back of this car. And I remember thinking like, I know that's a little thing but I honestly couldn't even imagine seeing that like 15 years ago, 20 years ago, I couldn't imagine these two.

And I drove past them and these two blocs in the front, you know, and they had started this thing being like, check on your mates. And so even though like it is horrendous to read, like and it's constant by the way, I do think that in a, algorithmic space that is less like fire travels right like fury rage anger it travels i have managed to break into like good dad algorithms and they they're there you know they are they are there you know it

doesn't it doesn't take away from what's happening but to it would be unfair i think to say there has been no improvements even the fact that we think a lot of this stuff is like unacceptable feel slow but it is something yeah no i mean i've got so many brilliant men in my life i've actually wanted to talk about the younger men in our life because we obviously share a big tribal family and when it comes to like Flynn who's like our nephew's 21 everyone around Flynn and all the boys like Wolf and Cassis and everyone

I'm so proud of them for like remember when we were at that thing he has a friend called Wolf yeah, Debs's his son oh yeah that's a name and a half that I want you called Wolf yeah don't tell Debs you don't remember her son's name you're not getting to Glastonbury without Debs

Debs has never got me into Glastonbury I'll say that right now That is true Didn't know that was an option Yeah shang her laugh I've been here begging people for Glassby Dickers And all I had to do is no wolf's name. No, but she, no, but those boys are great and they,

they care about the women in their lives and they've got like really, I don't know, maybe they have, maybe they've been privy to this information over the last 10 years in their life and maybe they've just done the right things with the kind of amount of information that's out there. That's cool. That's positive.

Yeah. Well, look, why don't we turn to you guys? I'm sure there's been nothing provocative said in the last 20 minutes that has inspired you to want to engage. Please cool. I want to say that this is the listen bitch part. So that was meaty drop. This is Miss Me Live.

That was mey drop and this is Listen bitch. But I did hear a murmur at one point. I heard someone respond to something loud enough to be audible from my, if you want to create to turn that into. Yes. Can I turn that into a question? Someone who was, I don't know,

maybe there was a, maybe it was a murmur of support or a murmur of being appalled. Who knows? What kind of murmur was it? Here we go. I don't think I was a murmur, but I did have a question. Okay, great. You know, you spoke about, like, Gen Z being radicalized

because they don't have a lot of good role models. Sure. Who do you guys think are examples of positive role models right now? Thank you. Thank you very much. Great question. What's your name? Ione.

I love that name. I have an Ione in the family. Yeah, Monti Don. No, honestly, because he's a boomer and he does not need him. Yeah, is he a boomer? No. He's older than a boomer. Yes.

What's older than a boomer? Oh, wait, is he? No, he's a boomer. Monty's like 72 or something. I think that's still boomer. Is that boomer? Yeah, babe. Oh, I'm 34.

You just think I'm a boomer and I'm actually a millennial with you. You're Gen X, guy. We share millennial. But anyway, Monty Don, because he's of a certain agent, he's so open, not just open about his struggles with, not even struggles, but his journey with his mind and his brain and his soul and everything that he's been through in his life. but he also has like this antidote which isn't just based on conversation it's based on the world around you and using the world around you to kind of heal yourself and I really do believe in that so I think that what he the work he does is about so much more than gardening

it's not just garden as well actually he's healing people I love Monty yeah look I don't know I feel I kind of hate the phrase role model I don't know why I don't know I don't know I still do too but I know I feel like I would love in life to actually slightly move away from placing the responsibility on a single or small, like single person to lead a thing. Like, I would really love young men. And also with Genzi, I don't know if everyone's radicalized. I mean, I just feel like the views they hold aren't necessarily reflective of progressiveness. There's definitely been a little bit of a plateau,

or there I say, the regression, which is also a response to other things, wealth inequality. I mean, fuck me, the cost of living vibe right now is like aspirations, purpose. All of these things are being thrown into question. People are looking for control. wherever they can you know and for you know boys and men it's going to be like well i'll just control this woman then it doesn't make any sense but i would love there to be a movement that

jensy can attach themselves to that includes men at every level because like celebrity culture idolization of single flawed people i think is a is just like a perpetual crisis yeah but that's what i was going to say actually that it would be you know it would be remiss to say that anyone in this world isn't doesn't have a right for community And I suppose there is an element of the manor sphere providing that in some way. Yeah, absolutely, solid of it. 100%.

You club shut. Yeah, exactly. Where the fuck are every youth club. And also parents are working fucking hard. That's the thing. It's like this whole, there's a fear, right, with parents about like the teenager shutting the door. That's the thing, right?

I can't control what they're seeing inside that room. Yeah. He's on the internet. But it's like the cure for that is literally providing enjoyment, entertainment connection and the literacy to achieve all that. outside, you know? I know boys you love mountain biking. So they're mountain bike. They're not online. Anyway, Jordan, why do you think I've reinvented the skipping rope? I totally get it. There's a

little plug. I totally get it. Please sir. Thanks. I agree what you said about not seeing one person as a role model and thinking about behaviours instead, like what behaviours you'd like to see modelled. In addition to the manosphere, I've been seeing a lot more content. Don't know if it's just my terrible algorithm, but of trad wives and things and I'm seeing Is it what they called it Is that the femisphere?

Traditional wives Yeah Pink pill I heard someone Say the other day So I mean it's the The dream of the Manosphere to find someone In that side

Yeah Yes yes Is it It's hyper Too hyper Too extreme Why do you think we've got there Where we've got

Suddenly this kind of overcorrection Because it seems very different And I know there are lots of ways To do gender and things Overcorrection Yeah Overcorrection of sort of like the roles that we play. From kind of we've relaxed gender in some ways.

Interesting. Not for everyone, but it's generational. But there are like, there's less toxic masculinity being the norm for everyone. There are different ways to do masculinity. So how come there are now some people who are really into the manosphere? And then the opposite, you've got the trad wives. I think we're living in a world of extremes at the moment I do think also with this idea of like

particularly with trad wives what I find upsetting about it is this You're aware of this movement, are you? I didn't know you're on my mind about it And I just This idea of cleaning up all the mess of women I think is really dangerous And historical

Something we really try to do Have always tried to do or miss me Like not be afraid of mess and pain and chaos because these things make you human and this idea of perfection but it's actually kind of further than perfection it does feel like blank and devoid of anything

that have any substance or anything real isn't it a business sorry they get paid right you get paid to be a trad wife yeah they get paid for content a lot of influencers who are trad wives do get paid yeah but like what are they doing it every day and then on Fridays they're a mess

can I just say but the influencers aren't necessarily who I'm thinking of. I'm thinking about the people who are following them. Yes, and living as such. Yeah, and that's the same thing with the Manosphere. I'm less worried about the Manosphere like people who are running it and more interested in who's following them and why. Yeah, yeah, of course, but that should be the first question always. Like there is a group of like I say, boys looking for guidance lost in society and there's there's there is like objectively provable circumstances that can push a boy into that. And

I feel sad about some boys because they'll be looking at these literal scam artists, right, and go, I don't even want to be passionate about anything. I just want to make profit. I saw one video. Passion. They're like, passion means nothing. I want profit, right? This is because, you know, they're watching their parents, whatever else, crumbling under the

pressure of late stage capitalism and they're wanting to do something. And that's the only thing they can think to do. That's something that came up a lot when we were talking about the Louis, Louis through Netflix manifest, and it was like, actually, this is, it suddenly isn't even about women. It's just like this obsession with, like, making. fake money in all these like weird fake ways. I think yeah, exactly. Also people don't like change, sorry, people hate the unknown.

It's the same issue with transphobia. Like we are, I'm a progressive. I look at the unknown and go, cool, what's the deal? How can we figure this out, right? A lot of people are terrified of change and go, no, no, let's go backwards. Yeah, but I think this trend wife idea does obviously, quite obviously take us hugely backwards in it because it perpetuates this hugely negative but actually think quite devastating idea that you have to be rescued from your own life as a

woman and i just think that's so a fucking dangerous um and limiting and reductive of what anyone's life can be i i'd love to get married and i love being in a relationship and i love being Making bread from scratch. But I don't. I could. These women fucking do. But it's not, we're not really just making bread from scratch. Do you know what I mean?

It's like that's what she's doing. But that's not what's fucking happening. So I think it's actually quite dangerous making bread from scratch because it's political, political bread making from scratch. Sorry, one more question, please. Save me. Hi, I'm Nicole. Hi, I'm actually an author that writes about raising teenagers.

Cool. So it was quite important for me to be here as part of this conversation today. But there's a narrative that I've noticed online, which is there are no good men. It's only men that have done the work. I just saw that TikTok. I just saw that TikTok today. Only men who are shared algorithm. Quite possibly.

We're looking at quite similar stuff. But I guess my question is I also have a teenage boy and a teenage girl. And I've raised him along with his dad to not have to do this. work because we've raised him to already understand these things. He's understood these responsibilities from a really young age. And I guess, where is the space for him in this conversation? Because there are actually, we have a house full of teenage boys quite often. And they're all such good laughs.

Such good laughs. I mean, are feminists in their own ways. Still not perfect as none of us are. But it concerns me that they look to these spaces and actually they already. feel flawed before they start out and that's a big issue for me and for the mums that are raising them I think we're getting to the point when mums are scared to have boys yes I definitely I've heard that a lot in my friendship group I'm like I don't think we need to be there because I've raised a boy

who has done great things up until now as a teenager and you know that's not where he needs to be yeah there's how's your teen daughter doing she's really five years hell and great actually Really? And what's her opinion? She has a different opinion to some of her friends because of the way maybe I brought up her brother who is older than her. She actually went into the city the other day with a group of girls who actively avoided a group of lads. And my daughter was very much like, oh, shall we? Could we talk to them?

And, you know, they're finding their way. And her friends are like, no, no, we're scared of boys. We don't do that. Scared of boys. Scared of boys. Whereas she doesn't have that opinion, having been brought up with a boy who, understands his responsibility and her place in the world. So yeah. God, Nicole.

Yeah, listen, I agree with you. I agree with you. I don't know what to say other than like, I feel very protective over teenage boys because I think that we too expecting too much, actually of them in that very formative. And like, again, leverage based part. I also think it's lovely to hear that your teenage daughter

is also great. the teen girls I grew up with made my life hell. Like fuck me. Like low key more scared. This is when I was growing up, but it might be different now. And I think finding that reality that we're all capable of that shadow self, we're all capable of violence to varying degrees.

There is going to, I'm hoping, going to be a next wave of conversation where we can unify in that regard. So it's not like a continual one way thing. Yeah. I've just found you have to time that well because, you know some people will switch off I don't know

and I also I wouldn't just be like tell him to listen to miss me but I really do think this idea of like kind of like not this He does Yeah actually my son has read your book My son's read my book I know he's how old is he?

He's 15 He was coming up with A few of the things that I'd read in your book Kind of struck a chord With conversations that they were having in school And I was just like He doesn't really want to listen to me It's a tribal thing

Yeah It goes back years like teens actually want to just pull away from your parents. So that's a really good tool. And it takes a village. And I also, I feel that like if you're with younger people, if you're saying today we're going to learn about this in particular, that we're going to learn about how to treat women better. That's, I, me and my mum have this thing called accidental politics,

which is where you use another conversation to sort of have another conversation, do it a lot on TV. And, and I think that what, like for instance, Jordan and I doing an episode about, about oral sex, right? Or talking about nature or astrology. Just a man and a woman revealing themselves to each other and being on a level with each other and that level of trust that I have with Jordan

that is so extremely deep. I think that's been really good for the relationship of men and women and like other ways to go forward rather than just let's hone in on this problem and how we solve it. It's more just like, how do we talk to each other? How do we connect with each other? I love that he's growing up

or with a young, with a female sibling. Because I think polarising conversations and ourselves has created such divide that there are young girls going, I'm scared of boys now. And also, can I say, as this, I don't know if this is the answer. I'm with you, by the way, just in terms of that, I had this conversation last week at Ford Festival when we're talking about this, the goodness, I don't really believe subscribe to the idea of what good even is, but the idea that men are evil, like not doing the work or constantly doing the work. Yeah.

There's no space to just be like, I'm actually really. I said like why are we rewarding boys and men in a way, just loving communal way of like, that's dope that you did that or like that was a really good decision. You know what I mean? Like supporting that. But to the same extent, a lot of the reason why I'm so unapologetically loving about the women in my life is because in spite of, as well as it also being 100% true, I love women in spite of the women who have harmed me. And similarly, a little part of me wants women to feel that they can say that about men.

boys and men i'm not doing it for that so reason but i'm wanting to live in the way you know sometimes i used to get triggered by seeing certain things on internet like that you know diminishing the life of boys or talking about in a monolithic way about men but suddenly living in the way i wish i was treated just completely absolves me of that i now i'm totally okay with someone being like i fucking hate men i'll be like you know what fair enough that's that person on their journey and and i hope that they can you know go somewhere else but i can maybe even be a living example so it's like i hope that your teenage boy can feel like even though he might be up against it because of how we're speaking that he's unapologetically loving and supportive about your daughter about his future girlfriends

and that hope he'll be the boy that your teenage daughter's friends will see and go no he's actually cool we should chat to him yeah yeah uh one more question and then we done bro yes we have a lush question no it's the lady it's the sex education it's the vulva it's the vulva woman the vagina sticker lady i identify as she and they but thank you Thank you, Volvo Love Club. Vulva Love Club. Makes a nice for the Volvo Love Club, everybody. She's side-questing, she's side-questing,

lush plus vulvas, we love it. Representation matters. As someone that taught sex education for over 10 years, I recognised that actually it's life skills, where it was, STIs and contraception, and then it was about debating or not debating, but advocating for LGBT people, and then defending, and then going in

and, like, supporting teachers that are like, do we deal with Andrew Tate because teachers have got a lot on. But fundamentally it comes back to life skills, but sex education relationship and sex education gets left out a lot of the time and minimized. So the reason that we're all figuring it out and it was legal to rape your partner, predominantly your wife, until 1992. In our life.

In the 70s. Fuck me, I was born then. Yeah. So, and it was illegal to teach about anything other than heterosexuality when we were growing up in school. Yeah, I remember that. We're living through the changes, but ultimately people are seeking that connection from each other.

And then to be able to navigate that. Sorry, give it a minute. It's a lot. There's a lot. But this is why I'm passionate about it. Yeah, yeah, of course. The longer we go on defending and what about this, what about this, we're missing the point and harm is still going on. Yeah.

Also, how do you navigate difficult conversations with your peers? Because as long as we're going on and on and on about it, it's also like weighty and heavy and exhausting, right? Well, I think we need to be as honest as we can be about our own shit. like it's as Jordan there was a point where Jordan was being a little bit in the sort of first few months of Jordan doing Miss me a little bit

heralded as some sort of martyr some sort of king of truth and honesty around the mannosphere and the young men and boys and Jordan and I was really like this is right Jordan does talk about this stuff in a way that I've not heard any other men talk about I'm so proud of him we're doing great work but Jordan was really great he stepped in to be like I'm also

fucking fallible And I have a messy pass and I've made really big mistakes. And that's why I'm here, not because that stuff didn't happen. And I, again, on the show, we really try and talk about our own mess as much as possible. It's really quite revealing. And in turn, I hope that that enables us all to see our own mess. And it changes the kind of conversations we have with each other. Because it's such a different starting point when you're like, I'm a fucking mess too.

Yeah. And also, I think what I want to do is shift the PR. literally the marketing on the idea of being connected to your friends and those friends being diverse because one of the most like the sharpest edges of of manospheres like prominence is like how alluring it is to a young mind they're going I like cars I like muscles I like you know and then it's really difficult to go listen you will 100% have better sex better relationships and you will feel good in your body if you're able to do this so it's finding a way to bridge that and one of the ways of doing it is by being like yo dude like i fucking you know

i have been i have opinions that i want to share so people know that like i am like i i yeah like i am i'm not trying to operate even if people want to try and fucking put me there i'm not operating from like a high and mighty place at all i actually the first line of my book is i'm not a good person yeah it's literally the first line just to set it off because i don't have any interest in engaging that's one of the worst elements of the the in the last five five, six, seven years, the worst part of left-wing culture, that I, that I'm not like this purity culture, this idea that somebody has to be 100% perfect in order to be heard, I think has done a load of damage.

And I also accept responsibility. Not all, not total, there's other things too, mainly rich people, but, no, I'm not billionaires mainly, but like people who hoard wealth, you know, they're obviously, right-wing ideology has a lot of actual true political power, like actual political power. The left doesn't really have any real strength. We kind of like say someone's a dickhead and then they just go and start a show on GB News and get paid more.

But like the, I don't want that. I don't believe in purity culture. I believe in like being brave enough to say that fuck you've done and then trying to restore and balance your life as a result. So that's, yeah. So I'm back in what McKier says basically, you know, don't be afraid to show your wounds

and don't punish people for showing them. And you'll probably have better more intimate, pleasurable experiences. And you'll have better sex. Exactly. and build that trust. You'll have better sex. Chouts out the Volvo Love Club.

Yes, thank you, Valva Love Club. I hope everyone's feeling informed, maybe a little bit open and satisfied, hopefully, kind of like good sex. I hope this felt like kind of good sex. Not brilliant sex, a kind of good sex. Which is by today's standards, really good sex. Yeah, exactly. But if you do want to learn more about building relationships with each other,

and go to saferocials.com and follow lusciously by not even having socials. Jesus Christ. Yes, that's a very impressive. We should obviously take breaks from social. But if you're not taking a break from a social, please share everything to do with you, miss me, like it. Wait, I'm going to say, everyone, look at Mickey's face and say this. Guys, please like, subscribe and follow, miss me.

So beggy. It's not Peggy, it's what people do. Follow our Patreon and all that. That's my point exactly. What people do. Who gives a fuck? I do. Follow.

Like, join the hive mind. Lush Fest is running until October. Oh, sorry. Yeah, come to more shit. And you can find out what's happening on your Lush app. They'll kill us if we don't say that. We're going to be,

if we didn't say that, I would have come home to a whirlwind of bath bombs. Yeah. I would have been suffocated. Yeah. We're like, no, no more. You know what you send glitter bombs in a post? That's the ultimate way to get your enemy

was just to cover them in glitter. Fuck you. Be like, good. Good luck having a bar for the next eight years. Thank you so much, everyone. It was lovely to see you. We'll enjoy your Friday nights. Hope you have better sex and better relationships.

Thanks for listening to Miss Me. This is a Persephoneka show.