Miss Me? - Neo-Indie Sleaze

Episode Date: January 23, 2025

Miquita Oliver and Jordan Stephens discuss partying in the 2010s, attraction and having a ‘type’.This episode contains very strong language and adult themes. Credits: Producer: Flossie Barratt Technical Producer: Will Gibson Smith Production Coordinator: Hannah Bennett Executive Producers: Dino Sofos and Ellie Clifford Assistant Commissioner for BBC: Lorraine Okuefuna Commissioning Editor for BBC: Dylan Haskins Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Hi, Kush Jumbo here. My podcast Origins is where the biggest names in entertainment tell me the stories that made them who they are today. This week on Origins is KSI. I did boxing as a joke, if that makes sense. So, no, continue. Did you and Tommy Fury become friends?

No, no, I would be sweating if I was like sitting next to another woman. I didn't know how to talk to females. Listen to Origins with Kuss Jumbo wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. This episode of Miss Me contains very strong language and adult themes, just how you like it. Hi, this is Jordan Stevens. You're listening to Miss Me podcast with my guest of the day, Meketa Ronova. Meketa Ronova, how does it feel being a guest on Miss Me?

Jordan is doing this to me because I hate the idea that I'm an interviewer and he's a celebrity. That's not what Miss Me's about. We're just chatting shit. Wait, Keats, Keats. Oh yeah, no. Keats, ready? You ready? On the count of three. One, two, three.

Hey guys! Welcome back to Miss Me. I hope you're enjoying it, obviously. I'm stepping in temporarily, cause Lily's on a break. Okay! Thank you for driving all the way from Margate today with the dogs, just so that you could be this nice-looking room to chat to me today.

Partly the room, partly my mum's birthday. Happy birthday Emma, what an interesting woman. Shout out, Emsi. Big time. Only on holiday in Kenya did I get re-reminded of the incredible kind of lineage that your mother's side brings you. Yeah. Because your mum's dad brings you. Yeah. Because your mom's dad was, they were like famous brothers, sorry, brothers that were

famous. Yeah. They were called the Bolting brothers, but they were twins. Yeah. Identical twins. John and Roy Bolting, and they directed the original Brighton Rock. Yeah, which is wild. And you lived in Brighton for a bit.

That must have been quite vibey. Living in Brighton, was that vibey? At the time, yes. But I mean, it's quite nice to live in Brighton and you're like, my grandfather made Brighton Rock. I just feel like if you were 12, maybe that would have got you some kisses. Get me some what?

Kisses. You thought, okay, sorry, let's just sit with this for a moment. In your imagination, at 12 years old, I would walk around going, hey guys, to 12 year olds. Makita, this film was made in like the 50s. Well, I've been thinking about 12 year old Jordan quite a lot

because I thought, well, if we're doing this together, we're probably going to talk about our lives together, our life together. And when I became most aware of you. And I guess it probably was 12. No, it wasn't. Oh, I know, I'm not calling up. No, it wasn't, Makita. No. You're hilarious. Have we not spoken about this on a podcast before?

No, I was trying to rack my brain, but I don't think we have, actually. Okay. Well, just so that people have confirmation, the truth of the origin story of our connection is that you didn't register my existence until I was... Famous. Yes. But like, confidently. Shamelessly. Shamelessly.

Wait, I can't say it. You're like... Yeah, so to be fair to you you actually, you weren't far off. I did come to your 21st birthday. When you were about 12-ish. Yes. But Makita, you didn't know who the fuck I was. No, I was busy. I had to reintroduce myself to you consistently for nine years.

And then you got famous. And I was like, I know you now. And PS, I'm calling you my cousin to everyone. Which I'm not, just confirmation. I'm not Makita's cousin. We are family friends. I prefer cousin. I prefer little cousin.

You are my cousin. I'm sorry, but what makes a cousin? All the families being intertwined growing up together. Then that as well. Also remembering someone's name, pre-fame. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I'd say number one. I was always Kane's mate. I was Kane's mate. Yes, you were cousin Kane's friend. You're like, oh, who's this? I'm like, Jordan, I'm Jordan. I've been at your last four birthdays.

Like how many fucking birthdays and Christmases do I have to come to before you can remember my name, Makita Oliver off of T4? I was like, I'm Jordan. I'm Jordan. I'm Jordan. I'm Jordan. I'm Jordan. I'm Jordan. I'm Jordan. I'm Jordan. I'm Jordan. birthdays? Like how many fucking birthdays and Christmases do I have to come to before you can remember my name, Makita Oliver off of T4?

Oh yeah, I was the cool one. You were the really cool one. Busted were at your 21st. No, they weren't. Sorry. So we could talk through our relationship for ages. So let's speed it up. So then I'm like, it's the 2010s and I'm hanging around a lot with my friend Grimmy at the time. And then suddenly you turn up one day and then you were like deep in that gang for a long time. And you self-named yourself in the editorial meeting the other day, party boy of 2010s. I kind of feel that's a fine thing to say. Accurate, valid. Yes, I was deeply entrenched within a life of hedonism. I was the youngest...

Jordan writes now, by the way. He's a writer. Yeah. I was the youngest in that party clique, yeah. You know, when we first, obviously on your first come up, you're like, you know, within the kind of vaguely narcissistic kind of ego world social currency, central London groucho vibes. Like I was, you know, hot property for a second and then I found, I found, you know, like a little gang and we had a lot of fun. Yeah. Feels like a really, really long time ago. It does feel like a lifetime ago, yeah.

And you know, I think I'm only realising now how little I knew at 20, how little anyone knows at 20, and how different everything in culture was at 20. There wasn't anybody taking pictures and videos, there wasn't this incessant need of stories and updates. It was like, we were really, I truly believe we were the last crop of truly reckless people. I thought I was, but I just realised you were, you were the last, even though you were in our gang, you were the last kind of age of someone now who's, you're like 33 next week.

Someone around your age is probably the real last of it. Who are the like people that go out and stumble out of bars now? Who are the new clique of people who do that? Oh, oh, who are the new us? Oh my god, good question. Because it would it would be like, do you know what I mean? It's like they're trying to snap like Alexa or Kate or like, and everyone's always falling over. Yeah, but no, but no, but actually, no, Alexa or Kate never, they kept their shit together.

But definitely like me. When Grimmie got breakfast, it was like, it was wild. You falling over a lot. But when Grimmie got breakfast, it was really this kind of peak, you know, I don't know what genre of music was popular at the time, but these guys were, you know. Well, as you said to me it's indieslees and

i do these guys as if i'm separate me too in the background yes but you weren't the only black guy around let's be honest so you were you were kind of our hip-hop friend only mixed race yeah yeah exactly hip-hop friends you said it i take that back but i'm actually that's more of a um a comment on the time rather than how he actually felt. Rap was definitely not pop around that time. I can say that for sure. You know what I'm saying? You guys are about all we could take in the rap game in that particular Indie Sleaze moment.

Now I'm older than you, by quite a bit. And it's just, it's kind of cool that we both experienced that time together because we're not the same age, but we were kind of going through this kind of whirlwindy thing. And now, we must say also Jordan is a polymath. I really like associating that word with you because you do do enough. You do do enough. And he writes both music and prose. I have to say one of my favorite writers, like the book that you put out last year, I absolutely loved reading it. Loved the way you are with words. Loved how honest you were and funny. It was an enjoyable four hours I read it in I think. I just went.

Four hours, did you? Back to your comeback. I don't want to use the word comeback. Although I love comebacks, but I don't think that's what this is because you've been working and passionately making shit. So yeah, look, we're back now. We've defrosted Rizzle Kicks, me and Harley. We're defrosted. Okay, this is good. I mean, you both look exactly the same. We don't look exactly the same, but it's quite good having you come back at 30 because you're still really young, but you've grown. Yeah. 30 is the new 20 anyway, so it's come.

Does that mean 40 is the new 30? Sure. Feels like it. Yeah. How are you finding it this time around? Back in the thick of it, back in the jungle. So, very proud of the music we've made, Harley and I. Genuinely think it's the best music we've ever made. In the time that we took a break, Harley's had two kids,

I've gone sober and found myself in a wicked relationship. So I felt like when we've come back together, and Harley's a great musician, he's got a beautiful voice, I definitely have a better understanding of my ability. I'm a little calmer, more relaxed, and so definitely more collaborative. So that process has just been a lot sweeter than it previously had been.

I mean, after our second album, I was very high when trying to make, and I mean, not green high, other high. Was that when you were getting on it quite a lot, the second album? I was in it, yeah, I was in it. And I was, I mean, green high, other high. Was that when you were getting on it quite a lot, the second album? I was in it, yeah, I was in it. And I was, you know, I mean, the music was great,

but I was, in terms of collaborative, not so much. It was like, I was a steam train, you know, and I don't think that was sustainable. As we think about that more, don't we, when we get older, it's like, it's not just like, what are we gonna make? It's like, are we going to even enjoy making it? Are we listening to each other? Do I wanna spend time with you? older, it's not just like, what are we gonna make? It's like, are we going to even enjoy making it? Are we listening to each other?

Do I wanna spend time with you? Yeah, it's that. And I do think, you know, we had a tough time. It's funny, cause people don't remember Rizzle Kicks having a tough time because we were really, really big and a lot of people have now grown up and become like superstars in their own right

with the memory of us when they were like teenagers, you know, or like as time has gone on, it feels like people's perception of us has just improved. And yeah, you've become quite classic. Yeah, it's like, it's like, it's become like shiny people's, I remember of us as shiny, but actually just before I started this podcast, I had to look try and find an old Guardian article, uh, before this project we're doing. And I found these old reviews and a couple of them are fucking savage. Yeah. But I remember that at the time because like back then I had this real memory. Oh, this is a good point actually about the return.

I had this real vivid memory of 12 years ago of really feeling like everyone was miserable, not actually society. I think society was generally quite upbeat, but because we were so used to joy in 2011, 2012, it wasn't an unusual thing. We were coming out of a global economic crisis. So we were like in a good space, but Guardian and people like that, like there was this pretentious attitude towards music,

which is good, it's necessary for art for people to be pretentious. But I remember there'd be there'd be lines in it, like, it's impossible not to like these guys. They put on a great show. But I hate it. But they're gonna end up being, you know, the new Ant and Dec or what this is. Well, there you go. This is when there was a real I don't know, actually, I still read quite a lot of music press. Maybe it's like this, but this is when there was just like standard, quite a lot of like deep snobbery over what is pop music and what isn't pop music. You were too popular to be liked by the Guardian, I think, at that point. And I think also the audience you had, it's a bigger, it's a deeper conversation than conversation than just Rizzle Kicks in the Garden.

It's honestly years ago, but the important point I want to make is that fine, back then that was the vibe. When I was a kid, I was a little bit like, you know, get it, we love old school hip hop, da da da da da. And then we were beyond our, we went further than we ever could have dreamed of. When we came back, we did one gig at Coco last year to dip our feet in the water, see what the vibe was. Sold out in 15 seconds or something. We were like, oh shit, okay. Yes, Jay.

Yeah, so then we were like, all right. And I tell you what, I don't know how, but the energetic read I get now is those same songs, that same music, obviously mixed with our new, more mature kind of sound of music, the joy felt like rebellious this time. It actually felt a bit... I can't even explain it.

I mean, obviously, I don't want to throw around the word punky. What rebellious to be joyful. Yeah, obviously our music's not punky, but in the context now, based off of what we've gone through as a society in the last 10 years, which is actually mental when you when you deep it, especially the UK specifically. When we're coming out and doing these songs, uplifting, fun, the fun felt like, like a form of resistance. I keep quoting that idols album title, Joyous and Active Resistance. And it just, and it actually this time round, it feels like it's necessary almost.

Because like what the fuck, like we need some... But it's a bit like to embrace joy takes a bit of freedom in yourself. Yeah. And also to go back to how you started this with the 2010s, and I'll be interested to know what you think about this. That was arguably the peak of conscious coolness. Like, stern face, no smile, you know, keep your shit together vibe. Because again, remember, this is pre-, this isn't social media,

this is shoots only. This is like TV, editorial. This is NME. You know what I mean? So people were, in that moment that they're pictured, they better look, you know what I mean? Whereas now, and I'd like to see it now, I think like Cornus is completely morphed and people are looking for something that is just an authentic representation of who that person is. They want transparency now.

Yes. I think. What do you think? Well, Lily and I talked about it a little bit when we're talking about kind of the way, the reason that bands aren't performing as well as solo artists. And she had some really good points about the fact that like to promote yourself as a band, as one is just initially essentially very corny, corny though. It's like Backstreet Boys going, hi, we're the Backstreet Boys and did it. That's one thing. They're being told to do that by 15 European music channels, but to say, hi,

we're here promoting ourselves and speaking in unison. Cool has left the building with Instagram. And I play the same game, a dirty little game as everyone else, but it's just to be there is not cool. And what, to be on Instagram? Yes. To even be attending the party of Instagram is just not cool. The coolest possible movie is to just not be online.

Of course. Did you feel cool in 2010? I'm just trying to think about this. Yeah, I think there was a moment where I was like. I was expecting you to think a little longer for that. But the thing is, no, because I was trying to separate cool and in trouble. They're inseparable, Makita. Inseparable. Yeah, so I suppose I wasn't trying to be cool.

I just was quite often trying to just not get in trouble. Constantly trying to not get in trouble. You were trying to not get in trouble? Ha ha ha ha! That's one of the... That's a clearly failed mission. It's incredible, right? Well, actually, I wanted to talk about getting in trouble because you said, you were talking about how you've, you know, now we are living and playing the same dirty game of social media and Instagram. You said that there have been times when you've lost money because you've had an opinion.

Yes. And obviously- I'm glad you've had an opinion. Yes. And obviously... I'm glad we've got this into the podcast. Thank you, Makita. I thought, I'm sipping it in. Come on. And I thought, oh, that reminds me of being fired from Radio 1 for being extremely opinionated in print.

We weren't going to YZ. Sorry, that was in print. Yeah, it was in NME. Is that why you got fired? I thought someone overheard you. I thought someone overheard you. I thought someone overheard you in the back room. You put that in a magazine.

No, that was my answer to a question. You put that opinion in a magazine. Because. My empathy for you in that situation has. Doubled. Is evaporated. It's evaporated, of course. I think it should double because I was in an environment,

I was 20, so Pop World had been on about four years and it was very big. And you were edgy, man, like what were you expecting? Innate! But I was also celebrated for being, at that job, celebrated for being opinionated. But that doesn't make what I said okay. It doesn't because it was unfortunate. It was unfortunate. But yeah, I have like, there

are new rules. Yes, I just lost a job I was really looking forward to for quite a throwaway comment I made. Actually, what's even worse about it is it was in response to a question I was asked about a section of my book. And so I talk about DMT, my experiences with DMT, which I'm not recommending, I'm not qualified, there's no promotion here. It's just something I talk about in my book. You don't work for DMT.com? I don't know. For anyone who doesn't know DMT is a psychedelic drug, but it is interestingly naturally produced in our bodies when we dream and when we die. But it is tough. You're right. There's an added level of jeopardy

now on social media because you have to also be squeaky clean, but kind of fuck that. This is why I think the word authentic is dangerous. I think what people just mean is the truth. We all seek the truth. The truth will set you free. Anything quotable with the truth in it is all the lives we should be seeking. But I do want to play the clip that I saw on Instagram of Tyler the Creator. And he's talking in this clip about creativity and how fragile it can be in the face of the obsession with metrics that is in lines in us all. Whether you're a primary teacher in Burnley or Tyler the Creator, you're checking these stupid numbers that will ultimately mean absolutely nothing.

Will you still wanna listen to Tyler's music in 50 years? Yes. Don't let these numbers fuck with their creativity. And there's so many people like Hall of Notes who didn't pop until their fourth album. The Ramones who fucking flopped a thousand times Right conversation becomes a focal point for some 19 year old who's making music now when is in this room It's like I put my song out and it only got this many views fuck. I'm a failure

Hope the kids that's watching this shit or the adults watching this that's 40 that wants to start a clothing line or sew clothes or make carpets or whatever Don't allow the numbers and the metrics that is so important now to fuck up What can end up being one of the greatest things ever? Oh, that's the other thing that he opened up for me. I mean say it Not allowing an artist to like have the space to develop and grow into something, into whatever that might be, that takes a little time, it takes a little seasoning. And I think this obsession with immediacy in all parts of our lives and around the world doesn't even allow for creativity to just breathe a little bit. I agree about these analytics and the fact that it's so much harder to make money as

a musician nowadays, that it's not the fact that people are and the fact that it's so much harder to make money as a musician nowadays. It's not the fact that people are looking at analytics, it's the fact that artists have to look at the analytics, otherwise how the fuck are they going to live? How are they going to survive? And then you become a reflection of an echo. You're stuck inside this algorithmic echo and you're going, well, okay, well, when the drop happened at 25 seconds it really popped off so let me do this and it's it's a self-fulfilling prophecy and Tyler's arguing and

I would argue and many people would argue is you don't need to know that because how are you going to set the new course everybody's always trying to do what the person did before everyone's always trying to make the new oh mate if it drops it drops there, then people can do transitions on TikTok. Like everyone's trying to do that until someone comes along with a slow ballad with no drums and everyone goes, oh my God, that slow ballad with drums that started this whole worldwide trend, let's do that. So yeah, but I think that's really good because it kind of pushes you to think about what being, what having a long creative life looks like. But one thing I want, one point I really want to make about this arts thing, which I really

feel very, very passionately about actually, I'm doing a campaign with youth music about this, this year called rescue the roots, is that my main worry in the UK specifically with creativity is that for some reason our government pays such little attention to the creative arts, not only as a space for young people to bond, connect, feel guided, build their social skills, have hobbies that aren't determined by tests and exams, but our creative output as a country, historically, is probably our greatest export. Absolutely, and valuable, deeply valuable. But I think that a lot of these genres of music and genre-bending contributions to music

have come in the wake of a world and an economy where people, I mean, I don't know the ins and outs, but you could argue some form of benefits or some form of support or at the very least government funding or sponsorship, scholarships, something has allowed someone to go, oh, you know, something, you know, has allowed someone to go, oh, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to start a band or I'm going to make music. Right now, I feel we're in such a dire situation. Everybody's in such a dire situation that, of course, when they get one taste of a return, they have to follow it. It's not even like they want to. They have to. When me and Harley were making music back then, we had to have a live band to get booked at festivals. We had to.

Oh my God. No one's listening to rap and hip hop live unless you have a live band. That was a thing. Dizzy Rascal was the same, The Streets. No one is getting booked with a fucking DJ, right? In the time we've been away, rap became pop, right? Shout out Stormzy, Skepp, Dave, right? Yeah. This, that new gen of rap, the big issue has been, how are you coming on stage and just rapping over your beat? But you're looking at it going, these are people who have grown up in a world where

we don't know how long that's going to be an opportunity. So the overheads on someone pulling their mate up with a DJ and getting paid that they can pocket most of that cash. It's a business. Do you know what I mean? I can't speak on behalf of these artists. I'm assuming this is the reason why, but you suffer, you're literally suffering to provide a level of artistry. Do you know what I'm saying? Jessy But that's because there is no, I mean, that goes down to the root of the problem of like having money stripped out of like every part of the arts of like primary school curriculum. Like, I mean, when I go to schools to skip so often there is no music room.

And what is that actually going to do to the creatives in this country that haven't even come up yet or haven't even been born yet. I just can't understand the logic of a world where we go, okay, everybody's struggling, we need to try and balance the books. I know what I'll do. I'll remove any sense of communal fun from most people's lives. And then surely they'll work longer.

Like, what is that? It feels like the world's in a handstand. Surely what you want to do is provide a space where people can exercise their human right to be creative. Every single human being wants to be creative. It's not about measurement. It's not about good. It's not about bad. It's just expression. And then once they've exercised that, I'm sure they'd love to go and work here and work there and keep things ticking along rather than being resentful and numb, which is where I think we're at at the moment.

Resentful and numb. Should we have a break? Resentful and numb. Sorry. That's a really good time. That really slides us into the break nicely. Thanks, Jay. See you after the break.

Sorry. Hi, Kush Jumbo here. My podcast Origins is where the biggest names in entertainment tell me the stories that made them who they are today. This week on Origins is KSI. I did boxing as a joke, if that makes sense. So- No, continue. Did you and Tommy Fury become friends? No. No. I would be sweating if I was like sitting next to another woman. I didn't know how to talk to females. Listen to Origins with Kush Jumbo wherever you get your podcasts. Jordan's worried that he's left everyone depressed, so welcome back to the extra peppy side of

this very special miss me. People are still making things. People are still making things. That's true. Creativity is still everywhere you look if you only just look for it. And if you ignore the analytics, stop listening to the analytics. It doesn't matter. Have fun. I think we'd be quite good on the sort of news nightie program together. That'd be nice. That would really put the middle finger up to those early reviewers. Hey, look at me doing politics. I'll show you the observer. No, Jordan is a smart

challenging bastard who I love very much and was reminded when we were on holiday how much I do like being challenged by you like properly. It really does make me think. And I always like the idea of talking about stuff that me and they'll talk about a lot, but like with a boy. Yes. Basically, with a boy. Basically. Jordan accused me of having an Indie Sleeves romantic background, which is not factual or fair.

I didn't realise what Indie Sleeves was. You had a visceral reaction to that phrase. My idea of Indie Sleeves was slightly looser than what it actually is. It was very much almost specifically the group of people we were talking about at the start of the podcast. Not that we want this to be the Indie Sleeves special, but yes, it was a period of time, I suppose, that is defined mainly by sort of like Instagram accounts now, but obviously at the time you didn't think, God, we're in such an Indie Sleeves place. But then Tall Phoebe and I were talking earlier and I was reminded of a sort of particular pair of lace, brown, Winkle Pickery type boots and a particularly shit leather jacket that I rocked.

So yeah, I guess I was in the Indie Sleeves world. You were. But I didn't date anyone from that world and everyone out of boys in bands. That wasn't my thing. What? I know. No, that's not me. I remember the person I told you to stay away from. That person's in a band. That's not, he's not Indie Sleaze. No, that's a different time. Are you

fucking kidding? Oh God, is that Indie Sleaze? Can I say? No. Please. Please. Yeah, yeah, we'll beep it. If I was to open Indie Sleaze, not even, no, but the maddest thing is it's neo Indie Sleeves. It's not even OG Indie Sleeves. Oh my God. It's neo Sleeves. So okay, so Indie Sleeves, like most things, evolve. He is the sleaziest. I'll say that with chest. He was fit at the time. At the time. He's never, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. He was fit at the time. But anyway, it evolved into this neo Indie Sleeves moment, yes.

And then where does it live now? In terms of how I was referring to your type or just in general in life. In terms of how I was referring to my type. I actually think Indie Sleeves might be dead now. But now what it is, is you found people who would have been Indie Sleeves. Yeah, that's it. But now wear baggy jeans and like a Stussy hoodie. And then you're like, oh, my God, I want to be...

This boy is so cool. And I'm just like, that is... That guy would have been in... In 2006, that guy would have been in a fucking band. OK, so I showed Jordan a picture of Harris... Don't say his name. I'm going to say it because Baby Girl's out now. All right, go on.

No, but he's fit. He's engaged to Rose Grey. I love their story. They're like sort of school sweethearts, but he's fit. And I showed Jordan a picture of him in a shoot in baggy, stussy tracksuit wear. And Jordan was like,

Makeda, that is Indy Sleaze. That's what it's become. I was like, oh shit Hey, Harris would be fuming if I said that though I know, I'm so sorry Harris It's not necessarily his life choices. It's more just his look My point was in a world where people didn't have their own choices They were just it was just based off of their look. I could make if given the freedom to Harris Dickinson look in these sleeves.

That's my point. Stick him in a trilby, some tight jeans. It would be uncomfortable, but it wouldn't be unbelievable. Be uncomfortable wouldn't be unbelievable, yeah? You can make him in these sleeves. There are people who you literally can't, that was my point. There are people who have a look

that you literally can't make in these sleeves. Like? John Bianco. Did you? literally can't make in these sleeves like John Bianca. John is literally the first owner. Why? I thought of that. Maybe because he just likes a baseball cap quite a lot. I could never see him in skinny jeans in a trilby, but John Bianca is never, I can never see him fighting in indie bands. He does not have time for Indie Sleeves, I can imagine. Who knows? But, okay, now we're getting to type.

Whereas, plot twist, Damson Idris, he could be Indie Sleeves. Sure, sure. I could get him into some Indie Sleeves. So what is this? Because what is that difference, both gentleman and African? It's a sleekness. It is a sleekness. It's a It's a sleekness. It's a... What's the word? It begins with like an F. It's like a felt.

Finesse. Svelte. Oh, Svelte. So skinny, pretty white boys. Okay, so now we're going to get into it. So in lockdown, me and Jordan were heartbroken at the same time and we started to decipher without talking about our consistent journey throughout our romantic lives with white partners and white one night stands, kisses, whatever,

but objects of lust and attraction for me and Jordan were both white people. Yes. For whatever reasons. I had a type. Exactly. Now, I had a type too. I have a type.

I don't know, you tell me. Because also, if it comes to just to be very honest, I've never had a black boyfriend, like a dark skinned black boyfriend. And I wonder why, I wonder what that's about. And then I look at my family history and it's all the black women, including my mother, which is why I'm mixed race,

dated pretty white, lean men, including my grandmother, whose boyfriend Ray became my grandfather when I was very young and was her romantic life my whole life. So it was the first thing I saw, the black woman in my life all went out with white men and married white men.

Yeah, I hear that. Yeah. And you were saying Brighton for you. Like you were like the only black kid. Yeah, I look at this in my book, you know, I didn't have many options. And I was also definitely fetishized by the girls, you know, who were excited by, I mean,

I was literally on like a short list of black boys that lived in Brighton and there were, you know, a handful of girls that would just kind of work their way through us. You're right. Oh my God. I'm not even, the thing is, as I said that, it's just the truth. Chocolate box corner or something. Sometimes you'd even see like four of our names in their MSN names,

but it would just change position, you know what I mean? I just, one would climb up to stars and one would go to hearts and then it'd come out. They just had like a little thing of like, I'm done with. That's actually quite deep. Yeah. That's actually quite deep. Yeah, yeah. But it was, you know, and so I kind of left Brighton. Also the thing about Brighton was because again, it was a different time in terms of the internet and wherever else like naturally, and this is why I'm trying to be as fair as possible to you too.

We naturally want to assimilate with our environment, obviously. So culturally, if I'm not seeing myself or understanding myself in any other space, I'm altering parts of myself to try and fit in and reflectively, that's really sad for me. You know, that's one of those things I mentioned in the book was that I wanted to have green contact lenses in my teens and that breaks my heart because I love my eyes now. I love brown eyes now. I actually love brown eyes. And that is what happens when you're growing or developing and you're wanting to fit in. It's part of growing up. And so yes, we do unconsciously,

I believe, begin to mimic patterns around us, people we admire. Well, my argument to you was, as part of maturing and becoming adults, I think it's important for us to challenge those beliefs. Yeah, you said you need to stay a black guy. I think you said it in a more concise way. It's not actually, it almost feels like we're moving into a space where it's about shade. It's not about shade. The constraint is in our aesthetic desires defining what is ultimately about how we feel. That's what I was challenging. And this is what I thought was really, this is what broke me open all week.

I was like, this is very interesting. You said, you know, I feel that having a type can mirror having low self-esteem. Yeah. And I thought about the types, this type that I may have. I think I have about three types, aesthetically. One type of personality, not one type of personality, but there is one list of attributes as a human being that I want in my next partner. Yeah, chefs and part-time DJs.

No, that's the, see, that's where you got me wrong. That's the past. Now it's more carpenters and painters. This is wild. What do you mean? How is this wild? This isn't wild at all. Because my point is the type is limited by the aesthetics. Do you think that it's unhealthy then to have a type? Or you just think that we shouldn't limit our type to aesthetics? Is it as simple as that?

Yeah, so this is my belief, right? Obviously people can have different beliefs, but the pattern I find is that there are people who find themselves in these kind of circular spaces with themselves where they're falling into the same thing, short-lived, not happening, da-da-da-da. And a lot of the time, I think it's because there's a look that they're going for. Okay, actually, I'm not even going to try to go outside of me. Let's talk about me in this space, right? Yeah.

My revelation was that there was kind of these five women that I had dated, right, some casual, some more, where it was like the unison of aesthetic was so obvious that I thought to myself, surely there is a person outside of this look that can make me feel good. Do you know what I mean? Like I'm looking at this pool of people. That's all I'm going for. Like as if this look will reflect the qualities that I need in order to feel loved. It's not to say that there isn't anybody with that look that could make me feel that way. But the fact that that's what I'm drawn to, I think needs a look. I found that I was looking for, you know, an unhealed kind of wound of some sorts, right? I was looking for an unhealed wound of some sorts.

I was stuck in relationships that were, I guess people say trauma bonded or whatever else. I was high all the time and I was looking for rushes and I didn't understand how to commit. Those were my issues. So I felt in order to face that, I had to ask myself what that wound was and how it felt. So in lockdown, I literally sat with myself and I, which I'd never asked myself before, what do I want from love? Like, what do I actually want to feel in a relationship, right? What qualities in a person beyond aesthetics will put me in a space where I can choose? Because really, I believe the truth of a relationship and a long-term loving relationship isn't that pretty and romantic and Hollywood.

It's not. It's a choice. You're choosing every day to go, actually my values match this person. I believe this person. That's one huge thing for me. I believe in this person's heart. Yeah, if I was to pick a quality

above anything else in a relationship, it would be that that person has your best interests in the core of their heart. So that even in a space where you're arguing or there's some things that are fucked up, you know, like I know my relationship now that even if I'm at breaking point over one particular thing, if I give it a day, I'll be fine. And I've never felt that before. Before I'd be hatching escape plans and that writing up, you know, I'd be figuring out how to disappear to South America. Like, you know what I mean? I'd be freaking out.

You have to believe the person's on your team. You believe that Jade and you are on the same team and that she has your heart in her hands. The same team thing might be the most important part of my unison with Jade is believing that she's... We believe we're on each other's teams. And that's not always common. I've never experienced that.

And that's when I know that there is a kind of love I've never experienced, because that does feel like a completely different thing to wait for, look for. So this is the thing, I actually think that if I hadn't had sat with myself and known what I needed, there were conversations we had early doors, where if it had gone a different way, I don't think we'd be together.

But the conversation from my part anyway, I knew what I needed. So I wasn't bothered about whether it would fall into my lap. A lot of people think, you know, oh, why doesn't this person know that I like this? Because you haven't fucking told them. You haven't like, you know, why does this person keep like hanging up at this time? Why does this person not text me at three in the afternoon after I've had my nap? Because you've not told the person.

I wasn't trying to live some miracle life. I was like, yo, listen, I think you're great. This is what I need from a relationship. When those two things are met at the same time, I think that's real true love because people can be too scared to ask for what they want because of the other person not making them feel safe You have to and that's about safety at the beginning I also think with attraction a lot of the things that I've looked for have been things that I wanted to possess Sorry inhabit myself rather than possess in a partner like I mean now I'd love to have both

but at the time I was I want to be busy and successful and whatever like be person in the world doing things that were good and people were responding to it because I wasn't doing that at that time in my life. Now I am, it'd be nice to meet someone and that be matched. But before I would have thought that I didn't inhabit any of those things. So I had to find it in someone else. Yes, in someone else. Yeah, right. Already that's like, I want to find a different word that's less click-baity than trauma bond, but, you know, feeling as though we're placing our power in how another person perceives us or who we are exclusively

when we're with the other person. You're already on the back foot. In it. That's what's wild. And the other thing I've realised too is, especially if we're in this world of instant highs, people are thinking that if they're not wanting to rip this person's clothes off straight away and that feeling maintains for a year that it's not worthy, again, I actively try to suppress any feelings

of overwhelm in those early stages because I knew where I'd go. I'm an addict. I'm an addict. I see all the time people will be like, Oh my God, I feel like I've known you forever. Let's run away and da da da. and then three months later, they're like, who the fuck is this? I don't get out of my house. It's like 70% of relationships end after three months because the reason is the chemical in our brain that gets us high when we meet someone lust wants another hit. No, it disappears. Oh, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you meet a person, what happens often, well, when I'm spending time with me, oh, they're hot, oh, I really want to see them all the time,

oh, my God, let's have sex all the time, oh, my God, let's have... And then they're throwing out all these flags. You could know if you're not aware of yourself, they'll be like, oh, I really love this. And in your head, you think, I don't love that, but you're so high, you're like, that doesn't matter, let's just carry on. And then after the three months goes, you're like, why do you like that? Like, why don't you tell me? But it's because we're

jumping through these hoops trying to make this person someone that they're not and vice versa. So I actually think the interesting thing is if you remove the desire to be like rawr when you see someone, you might find that you actually slowly grow towards them. This is what I said to Lily, I'm really down to like have my mind danced with and not just like my lawyer. Yeah, just be friends. Look for friendship. Look to spend, look for friendship with someone you kind of, obviously you have to find someone attractive. Don't get me wrong. You have to, you have to find someone attractive. But I love my favorite type of love story, which I actually didn't really have with Jade,

but the circumstances worked out, obviously. We had a mutual friend which helped. But slow, there's people that are chilling, they're spending time, there's no pressure. They might even be dating other people, and then they turn around one time and they're like, yo, how are you? Yes.

I think there's something powerful in that. Patience. Yeah, I also just, there is part of me that I just don't think it is the most important thing in the world unless it's something deeply, deeply interesting. Oh, a relationship. Yeah, I just don't. I see too many that are just not yours. Yours gave me a lot of hope, actually.

We have to say goodbye, Jordan. We've talked too much. We've babbled on too much. I know. I knew attraction would get you going. No, I wanted to interrogate you because I want to grill you more. We can do that in our personal time. Or I'm sure you can bring some of these thoughts to Monday for cheating. I'm sure they will come up. Okay. Thanks babe. So nice to talk to you today. When am I coming around? I want to

come to South London, hang out with the dogs. I'll bring my dog. Literally invite you to my birthday party. So. Oh yeah, that's coming up. I will see that. I'm coming with mom. She's bringing chicken. She said the best. That's the dream. That's the dream.

Me and the Oliver and a bucket of chicken. I'll see you on Monday for listen bitch. The theme is cheating. Thanks for that. Don't worry. This is for everyone. This is for the whole world to thank me. I get it. It's revenge. It's fine. It's revenge. It's cool.

It's not revenge. It's that nothing is a secret. Secrets kill us. People cheat. Let's talk about it. We'll see you on Monday for Listen Bitch. Bye Jordan. Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to Miss Me with Lily Allen and Makita Oliver. This is a Persephoneca production for BBC Sounds. And if you want to hear from me and Lily, we've put together a playlist for 6 Music's Noughties Forever. For this playlist and lots more like it, search Forever on BBC Sounds. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.

Hey, Miss Me listeners, it's me again. If you liked what you just heard, you may like BBC Sounds. BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hey Miss Me listeners, it's me again. If you liked what you just heard, you may like my music podcast, Make Me A Mixtape. Every week I compete with my friend Clara Ampho to curate the best mixtape for a celebrity guest based on the theme of their choosing. It could be gym hype, self love, birthing. I mean we've done an array. We have these special moves too where

we can steal a track from the other, spoiler alert Clara steals way more than I do, literally twice as much, or we can choose a gifted track from Mystery Celebrity, these could be good or bad, I have been sabbode a few times in this series because I also choose that the most, risk taker, weightlifter Eddie Abu picking Barbie girl was not on my bingo card So so far this series we've made mixtapes for Ed Gamble cat burns and my girlfriend Jade, which is fun, too You can listen to all the episodes now first season included on BBC sounds. Here's the trailer for the series Make me a mi Tape is back. I'm Jordan Stevens.

I'm Clara Antfoe, and this is our weekly music show. A celebrity guest picks the theme. We select the tunes. And we battle it out to create the ultimate mix tape. May the best music lover win. Oh, it's about to go down. Let's go! Ha, ha, ha, ha.

Make Me A mixtape. Listen only on BBC Sounds. Hi, Kush Jumbo here. My podcast Origins is where the biggest names in entertainment tell me the stories that made them who they are today. This week on Origins is KSI. I did boxing as a joke, if that makes sense. So no, continue.

Did you and Tommy Fury become friends? No, no, I would be sweating if I was like sitting next to another woman. I didn't know how to talk to females. Listen to Origins with Kus Jumbo wherever you get your podcasts.