Miss Me? - No Games, Just Sports

Episode Date: July 17, 2025

Lily Allen and Miquita Oliver discuss Justin Bieber & Swag, Lena Dunham’s new Netflix show and the cult of American Apparel.This episode contains very strong language and adult themes. Credits: Producer: Flossie Barratt Technical Producer: Will Gibson Smith Assistant Producer: Caillin McDaid Production Coordinator: Rose Wilcox Executive Producer: Dino Sofos Assistant Commissioner for BBC: Lorraine Okuefuna Commissioning Editor for BBC: Dylan Haskins Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. deal ratings and price history. So you know a great deal when you see one. That's cargurus.ca. Cargurus.ca. adult themes like all the good episodes. Have you heard the album? It's just not clocking to you, is it? Oh, okay. You're right. I don't know what that reference is, but the other one I did. What is the Justin Bieber album called? It is called Swag, which I think he's better than. I don't think he should have called it swag. I feel like there was some billboards that went up

that referenced his rant at a paparazzi, which was when he got like angry and he was like, it's just not clucking to you, is it? That I'm standing our business. Oh. That's been standing on business. Oh. That's been going on in my DMs quite a lot with my American friends this weekend. That's a good thing to say,

but I think he said it to the wrong crowd. Why would they give a shit if he's standing on business? Well, I don't think it really mattered because they recorded it and then it went out to the internet and so that became the crowd and people love it. People love it. People so that became the crowd and people love it. People love the fact that he's standing on business. I love that he's standing on business.

It's just not clocking to you. No, the one I like, the track that I like, I mean, I've really enjoyed listening to it today, but I am a really big Justin Bieber like song fan and I would love to kiss his face. Really? I really, really advocate for how handsome he is. He's got a great face, very lovely looking.

I know, but I'm just not into handsome boys. I know you really aren't, you never have been. He's too pretty for you. The song I like is, what's it called? It's a bit bluesy, it's a bit princey, it's called Glory Voice Memo. And I was just like, this sounds like, apparently, Nitey just told me he's working with

someone called McGee. No idea who that is. Okay, well they're quite guitar-y producers. And I think the marriage of that and his lovely R&B, Nitey's energy, that together has created something really quite brilliant. Great new album. Well, I haven't listened to it yet,

but I will endeavor to do so when I have a minute of time, which will probably be in September. Before we talk about your busy schedule, do you have any personal history with Justin Bieber? Not really. I mean, I think that I've made some off the cusp comment. Off the cuff, sorry cusp, that's not even a saying. Just making things up now.

Off the cuff comment, when he first came out with baby, baby, baby, ooh, cause he was like one of the first people to have a fandom, the Beliebers. I wanted to ask you that, so was he one of the first? Good, when this- I think he was, I might be making that up, but I feel like he was. And somebody asked me about it in an interview. And I think I, anyway, I said something

and then I was like, it was the first time I felt the wrath of a fandom. And I was like, wow. It's a very different thing when the fans start standing up for their person and come for you. And I suppose it was quite an anomaly then. Well, that was the time at a time

when it was probably still organic as well. Like now the fact the wrath of fandoms is like some quite often manipulated. So yeah, it felt very real. I don't know, but it also felt like it was 12 year old girls. So I didn't really give a fuck. I suppose also with like one direction, I remember they would send like,

people would get vile about Grimmy when he was hanging out with Harry a lot. There's always been, I remember they would send, people would get vile about Grimmie when he was hanging out with Harry a lot. There's always been, I mean, people, I'm sure it happened with Bross as well. When people love their pop star or their artist, they've always been very like, I would die for them. Do you have them? Alanizers.

Alanizers, no. I think I've got one or two super fans. That's about it. But I never really like massaged that, you know, element of music. But you know, there's still time, maybe one day, if I ever put some music out, then we can, you know, manipulate some kind of fandom, get Seb in his, you know, at home all day, just pretending to be Lilian and fans. You might have bad things to do, but we'll do it. You might have to do it as well. I'll have to get everyone involved. Dino and Will and Floss, could you be fake Lily Allen fans?

Really create a furore on the internet. What do you mean fake? They're real Lily Allen fans. That's true, actually. I think my fans that are like a little bit, my Seventeen fans, are a little bit too cool, you know. They've learnt from the best. They're not like sitting online all day like shitposting. My rivals. I don't even know who my rivals would be. I'd say Dua. No. Come on, she's like 15 years younger than me and also like... Oh, you mean like same pool, peer group rival. Just because you've got such young, hot energy,

I wouldn't think it would have to be. No, if I had a fandom, I can't think who my rivals would be. You mean like the fans of other people who would come for the Allens? Well, because like, you know, like Selena Gomez, like Hayley Bieber, you know, everyone's got because like, you know, like Selena Gomez, like Hailey Bieber, everyone's got their like, who's Nicki Minaj always beefing with?

Cardi B? Yeah, maybe. And like, Megan Thee Stallion. Anyway, back to, thank you for saying Hailey Bieber because I just wanted to go back to Justin Bieber. So, it's just me that has personal, a really intimate history with him. Just me. Yeah, it's just you, Makita, out of the whole world. It's just you that has a personal, intimate history

with Justin Bieber. You, Hailey, and Selena Gomez, that's it. Yes, that's the trifecta, right? I couldn't tell you the name of any of his albums, but I have got quite a few of his songs on some of my playlists. Yeah, listen, Justin Bieber's a great pop star. And I'm surprised he has put out an album

because according to the press, he's been having a really hard time. But I imagine maybe the Diddy case has affected him a bit. He seems like he was very adjacent to all that dark shit. He's an artist as well, man. Learn you're having a hard time. It's the best time to get in the studio. Yeah, isn't it funny now he's got an album.

Hard month, suddenly swag has arrived. He's standing on business Daddy, I feel like he might have to say that because his wife is so Prominently about business right now and I think he wants to be like me too We're both about business. Just not clocking to you. Is it I'm standing on business right now. Okay, okay, Bieber. Relax. It's such a stupid thing to say. We get it. Especially with Justin Bieber,

it's like, yeah, no, I assumed you would be. I didn't think you weren't standing on business. I actually almost took a screen grab of it because when I saw the video circulating, I went on chat GPT and asked it, what does standing on business mean? Yeah, what does it say? Let me get it up.

Standing on business, can I say my, this is from a human being first. It means that like- It's pretty obvious what it means. Yeah, sure. But let me still do this. I imagine it means I am rooted in my legacy and my success from the past

and I still got more to show you. Standing on business is taking yourself seriously, following through with your word and handling your damn responsibilities without backing down. Holding firm boundaries, demanding respect, not playing games and doing what they said they would no matter the cost.

God, I need to stand on my business. Anyway, let's ask it what it's not clocking to you, is it means. I like no games because my sentence for the summer is no games, just sports. What does that mean to you? No fucking around, but let's play. I mean, it means the same thing, doesn't it? What as I'm standing on my business?

No, I'm not fucking around means I'm not fucking around, doesn't it? Yeah, but it's like no games, like no head fucking shit. No games, but let's play. So no games, just sports. I think it's brilliant. Okay. I think it's one of my best. It's not clocking to you means basically

you're not getting it or you're not catching on. Yeah, okay. Thank you. It should be a listen bitch. Slang should be a listen on. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. We shouldn't. It should be a listen bitch. Slang should be a listen bitch. Yes. From the past historically to now. Yeah. Okay. The history of slang.

No, not the history of slang. Just slang. Just slang. And the history will come up. Okay. A hot week in London town. Again, we're having a really good summer. Not to talk about the weather too much, but we're having a really lovely summer. And also not to be geographically too specific because our listeners do come from other places apart from London. It's been hot all over the country. All over the world. Has it?

Yeah, the whole place is heating up. Haven't you heard? Apparently it's happening all over the world and it's quite worrying. No, me and Lily are in that really nice time of the year where we happen to be sharing the city together, but I didn't see you last week, but it was Phoebe, cousin Phoebe's birthday and you and Phoebe's had a lovely little adventure on your bikes through West London down to the party. I did hear you sang LDN. I did. I thought you saying LDN.

I did. I thought it was really funny. Only because I was with Phoebe and I thought it would embarrass her to go down Gobble Road going riding through the city on my bike all day. The self-referential reality tunnel that we were riding through. Well someone told me on Instagram that last week was the week 19 years ago that Alright Still was released. Isn't that a bit intense? No. I mean, ask me next year when it's 20, then I'll probably feel something.

Okay, let's, you're right, let's hold all the emotions until then. But I've been trying to think of different songs to like explain what it feels like to be in the city when it's hot like this. We had Hot Child in the City, but I'm quite liking hot in the city tonight. They're all going to be from 80s films, songs. So tell me about your hot night in London with Phoebe down at Maxilla. Oh, well, I went home quite early, but it was good. You know, Seb, Drew, shout out Seb, to my manager.

Shall we explain to people what this night is? Well, it used to be an extension of Seb and a friend of his called Leo's, you know, Seminole Club night yoyo, which we used to go to on a Thursday night in the Notting Hill Arts Club. And then that stopped. And they started putting on sort of parties out and about in London with a sound system in a van, and they would tweet or Instagram wherever their location was gonna be on any given Thursday. And then last summer, I think they just, maybe they did it every week.

Anyway, this summer it's gone, it's not every week, it's like every few weeks, and it's now like an official charity. So they're working within children you know, children, kids from low-income families and exposing them to, you know, ways of getting involved with music. I had no idea it was doing that as well. Wow. Yeah, it's really cool. And they're doing it in, you know, cahoots with different councils and, you know, organizations like the Westway. Yes, sounds like the 90s in West London. Yeah it's really cool it's really great and you know now it's not you know it's allowed it's legal so that's good.

Yeah how the fuck is it how do they get away with doing it essentially a block party in West London today is it the charity element? I think it's the charity element yeah I think it's the charity element, yeah. And that it's, you know, they're putting back into the community and giving kids a place to go and something to do. There's not much going on for kids at the moment. It was such a like mad crowd. It was like, you know, sort of 14 year olds,

15 year olds, and then like 50 year olds, you know, it's just like a li Allen gig to be honest. And Fran Cutler. And Fran Cutler was there, and Shia Fx played, you know, who I played with at Glastonbury a couple of weeks ago, but you know, he's just a jungle legend. It was a hot in the city tonight kind of night,

but you went home early. That's true, I did go home. I've been getting home early a lot, because I just need to run my lines. It's so hard, this dialogue of this play. I can't tell you. I went to see our dear Lily Allen in her rehearsal space in London

as she prepares for the stage. I was really overwhelmed by the whole idea of the fact that not that you're doing play, just genuinely the lines you have to learn, all that dialogue. Yeah, it's somehow harder than the pillowow Man was, although everyone that's around me says that I felt exactly the same way around the Pillow Man, but this dialogue is very

like stylized. It's very like stoppy and starty and she doesn't really finish her thoughts. So it's like, it's, sorry, I'm now like life's imitating art. I was like, you're becoming head. She doesn't actually finish a thought. No, I actually kind of am becoming head. I was on the tube today and like somebody got on that I would ordinarily like get straight up out of my seat and give my seat to. And I was like, no, not going to do it. Then I was like, Lily, what are you doing? Get up. And I was like, oh, fucking hell, I'm sorry. I'm just like in bitch mode.

Can you help me? Because the other day, there was a woman who was like between 55 and 58 or something. And I was like, I should stand up. And then I was like, but if if I stand up and say, you need this seat more than I do, and she's like, fuck you, I've still got it, I'm still quite useful in my mind. It's actually really tricky if someone's not obviously an elderly person to decide whether you stand up

for the person, because it is offensive. It's quite good mind fuck to do it to people that are really like. Young. Young. I'm like, sorry, do you want my seat? Some guy thinks he's still got it. I'm sorry, do you want my seat? Some guy thinks he's still got it. Oh, sorry, here you go.

Last weekend was also the weekend of the hen-do. I had two very close people to me having hen-do's, my cousin Mabel and also Ellie, who I work with. Really horrible having to pick which one. I picked Mabel's because she's my cousin. I had to. And it was quite an interesting, it was a bridal shower. I know nothing about a bridal shower.

It's just women and it's basically for the elders. And Mabel is marrying Priye, who's the best. And he is half Jamaican, half Nigerian. And there was a lot of prayer, a very religious family, which I loved. Is Mabel getting down with prayer? Very much so, she's, her and Priya go to church. Shut up.

Yeah, she is quite religious now. But it was really beautiful, but then we have the hen. And- Not so beautiful. It was raucous, it wasn't beautiful, it was a raucous. They had a Rihanna drag queen who went by the name of Rylisa. What a performer she was. Do you know that, I think it's Korean dipping sauce called gochujang. I always thought that

would be the best name for a Korean drag queen is cat gochujang. Cat gochujang. Kat Gotchujang. Where was the party? At Mabel's house. But Lil, Mabel was like, I thought she'd be all like, I'm embarrassed, stop. And she was like legs apart. Like it was like an 80s music video. And then she just went down on the floor and did the splits

and started bouncing up and down. I was like, OK. So it became more of a performance between her and the performer. Wow. It was amazing. That could never be me. I have, something is going on with my body at the moment. Don't know what it is.

I wonder if I've always been this way but I just haven't felt it before and I'm becoming more connected with my body so I'm suddenly able to feel it but I feel like old. Oh Lil. No I mean just like it's quite a lot of movement in this play where I have to like get up and down and be on my knees and it hurts to get my cup. Do your knees click when you get my cup? Because mine do.

No they don't click but I just feel maybe I'm just tired, maybe it's just because I'm not used to working this many hours in a day. Yeah. Or I just haven't, I am used to it, but I just haven't done it in a while. You're like an out of practice athlete, let's say, and this is you just getting your practice back in. Yeah, but even like when I was in New York,

I'd go to the gym like four or five times a week, and I usually feel good when I'm in the gym. And at the moment, I'm going to the gym three times a week here in London. Maybe it's the going down. Maybe that's why I'm feeling it more. But I am like, oh, God, do we have to? Like, I'm exhausted. He's like, give me 20 press ups.

And I'm like, absolutely not. I'll give you five and you'll say thank you. Is that how you talk to your trainer? Yeah, basically. I would not go down with mine. I think you're doing really good and actually it is a lot of hard work. Now that I've seen, that's what I'm saying now, I've seen that book of dialogue. It's not as simple, it's not as black and white as like I'm being physical. You've also got to find all this new space in your head for all those words and all those lines.

And also the words aren't like, you know, no offence to Matthew who's written the script because they, you know, he is a great writer but what's difficult about it is not that, you know, if it was like, oh look, you know, there's the coffee machine, you could imagine the coffee machine, but because the words, it's like, yes, but then and went, it's like, it's very stop, start, it's all like, it's called something. It's not nouns, it's all like verbs. And it's all verbs, basically. And what, why has he done that? Because it sounds better. I think if we get it right, it will sound really good. But at the moment, it sounds like bullshit. At the moment, it makes no sense to me at all.

That's always how one feels before they jump off the diving board. Once you've started this, you're gonna be like, okay, now I actually am making it all work. Let's have a break because now I'm just like, God, and then we get you here and force you to talk shit to me. I just want to put something like in the grand scheme of things. My life is great. I'm not working nearly as hard as most people work and I'm just, you know, lolling around in a place. So like, let's not, I'm not, let's not get the little tiny violins out quite yet. Okay?

Everything's, I'm very grateful, hashtag grateful and very blessed. Yes, and et cetera. And et cetera. Not complaining. Very much not complaining. Very much not complaining. All right, let's have a break. ["Miss Me"]

Welcome back to Miss Me. I think it's very important that we welcome back everyone to Miss Me, because I think we didn't even say it when we first started talking. We just headily went first into Justin Bieber's new album, because it's that good. Lena Dunham's Too Much, I watched it. Oh, you did new album because it's that good. Lena Dunham's Too Much, I watched it. Oh, you did?

I watched it over the weekend. Did you watch more than episode one? Yeah, I did. And it's, I'm in it. They, fuck, I'm the butt of a joke. Stop, that must be episode two. No, it's like episode five, six maybe. Oh, oh, you really watched it.

Anyway, I did think it was really good and I really enjoyed it. I don't know whether Lena wrote it. Maybe she just directed it. Yeah, she did think it was really good and I really enjoyed it. I don't know whether Lena wrote it. Maybe she just directed it. Yeah, she did write it. She wrote it and directed it with Lewis, her husband. They both wrote it together. It's just, it's about them.

Right, now that I need to, that's what I need to talk about. Do you remember him? Yes, I went to school with him. Oh, right, okay, so you went to school with him. I know him from like Tom Frog crew. East London. I think that's the crew. Yeah. Definitely went to you went to school with him. I know him from like Tom Frog crew. East London. I think that's the crew. Yeah. Definitely went to some weird after party with him after lay low one

night. Ugh. Anyway, I feel like there is a little bit too much of a depiction of London about 15 years ago. This feels like 2010 London. So it doesn't feel real from the setup. Well, it's certainly got all the people from 2010 in it. Yep. You know? Yep, yep. It's an episode where like Clara Padgett is the bride, Josephine de la Bourne is in it.

My God. Adwors obviously in it. Yeah, Adwors in it. Rita's in it. Yeah, this is, yeah, yeah, 2010. It just feels like Jessica, the main protagonist, is like dealing with these issues in a London that doesn't really exist anymore.

And I thought it would be really funny or interesting if they were writing about the issues of today's London, because there are issues, but they're not those like. Yeah, but you know what? When we watched Girls, it might have felt off for people that actually came from New York. Well, I think maybe what's happening is people are, you are just, when you write what you know, it maybe just hits in a different way. And it's not terrible. I just think this was like a real

misgiving of it. It was like, we could have done this bit better. She said that what they were trying to do was satirize the kind of London scene through the lens of Richard Curtis essentially working title. But that's not, but it feels like working title or doing a TV show just in Hoxton 15 years ago. Yeah. And that's actually not real for now. Now East London's very corporate.

You wouldn't be able to just stroll into a pub and see live music, live music, pop, what? Like these things don't exist in the same way. Exist anymore, yeah. No, she should be like driving in circles, being locked into the LTN nightmare of East London. Sorry to bring them up again. Where's the, where were the line bites?

Yeah, wonder if it will resonate. I mean, I don't really care if it does well or not. I feel like she's a great writer and it's been a great outlet for her to express something. So I am all for it. I think you go girl. I just wanted to say also one thing about Lena Dunham as well is that like, I really just hope

all reviews are talking about the show because I was looking at old press when Girls came out and there's like this original brilliant new thing for everyone, full of all these new characters and these fucking brilliant narratives. And every single press story was just about the way she looked. And it's interesting because when Sex and the City came out,

and these women around the city they live in having fun and relationships and sexual liaisons with whoever they want, it's all about, oh, this is so great and sexually liberating. And look at all this sexual freedom because essentially they're thin and groomed and well-dressed. And when Lena Dunham's character, Hannah Horvath,

is having the same kind of sex with lots of different people and making up her mind and figuring things out, people were disgusted, disgusted that someone that they deemed to be unattractive was like having pleasure and having sex. And I thought it was really depressing that that was like the forefront conversation throughout the whole tenure of girls,

whether her weight had gone up or down and how much the press decided she was attractive enough to have these storylines. It's pathetic and embarrassing. Yeah. Did you ever watch Girls? Did. Loved it. Did.

It didn't really stay with me, but I've rewatched some of it since since and I think, I just think she is like amazingly accomplished and always has been really. And I feel like she kind of not gone away since girls because she's done other things and she's been sort of, I think she's had a really hard time. Yeah, definitely. And I just, from what I know of her from other people, because I've not really, I think I've probably maybe met her once, I don't know. But I think, you know, you couldn't really be on the receiving end of the amount of shit that she's had and it not affect you. But from what I've heard from other people is that she's an amazing person and that she's super kind, super interested in everyone, no matter where they come from.

She's not like, you know, sort of had this sort of success and then become like power hungry and surrounded herself with like just really rich and famous and powerful people. Although I'm sure she's done a little bit of that. But a lot of people that I know that aren't particularly accomplished have said that she's a really, really, really great person. And that's not just come from one person. I've heard that from several people. So it must be true. It must be true. And also what a fucking great line to be following you around because I've heard that from several people, so it must be true. It must be true. And also, what a fucking great line to be following you around, because I've been thinking about it more and more. Actually, since watching the American Apparel documentary on Netflix, Trainwreck, the rise and fall of American Apparel, I was like, I am interested.

And it is, what a story that was woven through so much of our life, or like whatever. Our lives are woven through the much of our life, or like whatever, our lives are woven through the story of American Apparel. And he's just, he's such a Dov Charney, is he called? Dov Charney? No idea. Have you been reading some sort of research that they put in front of us, haven't you?

No, how do you not know who this guy is that started American Apparel? Because I'm not obsessed with brand building like you. I know. No, no, no. How do you not know who this guy that started a company selling leggings is? Like, I'll tell you how, because I don't care. Because it wasn't about leggings. American Apparel was all about the marketing and I was always really interested in it. So I looked into who was behind American Apparel. Yes, maybe because that seed was planted in my head earlier than yours. But this guy also went through hellish sexual harassment,

sexual abuse. Didn't a lot of models sue him? He's never actually been through the judicial system within these abuse claims though. There have been alleged accusations. Yeah, suffice to say this man was running this company in a very toxic, terrifying way. Just verbally abusing all the people he worked with. I was like, why the fuck would you do that? Why would you?

I just read this article with him as a kid. All these pictures of him as a nice kid. And I thought, is it just power? Is it that what happens? Because at one point in 2000, and I think it's like seven, The company's valued at like one, a billion dollars. Like American Apparel's at the time very, very powerful. And that's when he becomes despicable. So I think people just don't hold their power right. No, it doesn't suit some people. What did you have? What did you have from American Apparel?

Come on. Did you have the disco pants? What are disco pants? Are they the like holog? What are disco pants? Are they the like holographic-y ones? It's giving klaxons, isn't it? It's giving klaxonia, yes. Yes.

I know, Nath. CSS, big, loved American apparel. It's giving klaxon army. No, I don't, I don't really, I think maybe I felt I didn't come under the, I didn't fall victim to that branding. It felt very like hot LA girl to me. And I didn't, I felt like too big at that time

because of the messaging that we were receiving. Do you mean overweight? Yeah. Oh no. Yeah, I would have been intimidated to go into American Apparel because of all of that marketing and it being very like, you know,

weird for like hot, skinny girls from LA. And that's not you. I completely fell for it. I was like, if I buy this hoodie, I'll be them. I had a lot of American Apparel tennis skirts that like didn't fit. I was like, if I buy this hoodie, I'll be them. No. I had a lot of American Apparel tennis skirts that like didn't fit. I just kept buying them. I was a sucker for that marketing.

But anyway, it's up to saying, you know what he does actually do? He gives this terrible book called The 48 Rules of Power. Do you know that book? I don't know if you might know that book. And he gives it to everyone that works in American Apparel. And they're all reading it going like, this is like fucked up and psychotic. And then he makes the man who wrote the book, a man called Robert Green, he hires him for

the board. He adds him to his board. And then when the sexual abuse and sexual harassment claims come up, they have enough power to fire him. And they drive it, American Apparelarel into the ground in a year. In a year, they go bankrupt. Because of an inside job from staff. Well, it's like, as much as a terrible human being

he seems to be, he knew how to run that company and the minute he was in trouble and they got rid of him, his company was just, it was dead in the water. Interesting. It was dead. It's dead out. But it was dead in the water. It was dead. It's dead out. But it was a really good documentary. I mean, it's terribly made actually. I thought it could have been made much better,

but it's very interesting. Anyway, I've got people to see and dogs to feed. Dazies to go. Dazies to go. Bikes to ride, ropes to skip. Ropes to skip, bitch, that's right. I will see you next week for Listen Bitch. The theme is personal hygiene.

Personnel hygiene. Exactly. Anything else you wanna say to me before I go? Is there anything I'd like to say to you? Just thanks for being here today. Thank you for showing up like you do every week. It's been great. Thank you for showing up for me.

I mean that though. No, so do I. If it sounded disingenuous, that's because I'm just in header mode. Now I know you meant dip. I'll see you Monday, babe. See you Monday! Okay, bye.

Thanks for listening to Miss Me with Lily Allen and Miquita Oliver. This is a Persephoneka production for BBC Sounds. Hello podcast land, it's David Tennant here. Perhaps surprisingly, I find myself doing a podcast. Yes, get ready for it. David Tennant does a podcast with... Whoopi Goldberg Olivia Coleman John Hamm Gordon Brown Ian McKellen Samantha Bee Jodie Whittaker Kristen Ritter Michael Sheen And that's just the ones we've recorded so far. Lots of lovely people dropping by, hanging

out. I mean, that's basically it. It's pretty low concept, but so far it's sounding rather delicious. Come, join me. David Tennant does a podcast with. Bye. Listen on BBC Sounds.