Miss Me? - Pull Out Now

Episode Date: April 23, 2026

Miquita Oliver and Zawe Ashton discuss the stress behind a red carpet dress, and how motherhood goes with creativity.This episode contains very strong language, adult themes, and discussions of mental health. Credits: Producer: Natalie Jamieson Technical Producer: Oliver Geraghty Assistant Producer: Caillin McDaid Production Coordinator: Rose Wilcox Executive Producer: Dino Sofos Commissioning Producer for BBC: Jake Williams Commissioners: Dylan Haskins & Lorraine Okuefuna Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

This episode of Miss Me contains very strong language, adult themes and discussions around mental health. To a very special episode of Miss Me. This is someone, this is a woman that I would call on a day like today where I just really need to chat some shit to. So the fact that we do it and I'm doing my job at the same time is just two birds with one stone. Zahey Ashton is hosting Miss Me with me today. Thank you. Thank you, World. Thank you, Universe.

Right? It's a booty call. It's a bootie call. See, and that's why Zahui's here, because you wouldn't think that we're meant to start this with All Saints Booty Call, but we probably should. What I love about, well, I love talking to you.

As you know, I'm obsessed with talking to you. But also, I do love that I'm kind of Missed Me's favourite sidepiece. Yeah, you are. I only say favourite because I feel I've been back more than some of the other side pieces recently. Oh no, like, we've definitely messed around with some bitches, yeah, but you are the number one side piece.

You've got a full household today, and I'm very aware that you quite recently had another child. So I do appreciate you sticking a top on and getting on camera today. Some shit be going wrong. What's going wrong in your household today? Everything is going. Like, my shower not working. The wife.

by being dodgy. Like someone who I wanted to come and help me look moderately sane was ill and couldn't come. She's one of my best friends. Yes, makeup cancelled. One thing after a bloody another. One thing after another.

You say stick a top on, I stuck this top on and I'm pretty sure I can see moth tracks. Yeah. You look lovely. Listen, I don't know what early... Yeah, I guess it is still early motherhood. Like, these babies aren't that grown yet.

And, you know, you still have to get close to yourself to get on camera. I don't know how someone would differentiate going from mum into this. I find it stressful without kids. It's so, thank you. It's so, fucking stressful. It shouldn't be the stressful.

I'm sure there are some other moms that are like, I've got this, I'm nailing it. But I'm definitely not in that. I'm not in that camp. And I want to do this so much. It's almost like the wanting to do it so much is also making things go wrong. Do you ever get that?

Of course. We're like, I want this to go so well. everything around it is crumbling. I've been doing a lot of the Louisa Hay work. Do you remember her from like the sort of 70s and 80s?

She's sort of one of the first people to kind of popularise the idea of manifestation, affirmations, release, surrender, etc. She's great because she's really old school. But you can find her on YouTube and I've been doing a lot of that work

and a lot of the work is how does it feel to hold sand in your hands with a tight grip? What happens? it falls through your fingers. Wow. But if you relax and just try and hold something with a little bit more ease, you have a better hold on it.

It's basically about release and surrender all the time. Louisa, I love that. I don't know how that would play into being a mother. Tell me if you get times in this stage of your life with your babies to release and surrender. Or is that not really an option? I'd like to ask Louisa about, if she's still with us, about juggling sand. Right. Yeah, that's motherhood.

You're actually juggling the sand. How is it? How do we keep a wave upon the shore? All of the big questions from the sound of music. I... Those nuns ask some damn great existential questions. Absolutely. Oh, you're on the right path because Louisa also says,

you know, ask the bigger questions. Not why is everything going wrong today? Ask the bigger questions. And what is this experience here to teach me? I, and you know, I'm really actually there at the moment. I'm trying to get underneath the hood of everything. So you're right. So you're not just reacting all the time.

For example, like this morning, having to do my own hair and makeup. And I was like, I am so stressed about this. I was like, I've still got this dusty weave on from the Olivier Ace. Okay. It's not dusty. It's amazing. Again, it was put in by a very good friend of mine. using ethical, you know, but whatever.

I was like, I'm absolutely waste woman central this morning. And I'm so upset about it. And I have to go on camera and chat to Keith. And then I was like, okay, I'm reacting to this. What's actually underneath that is just generally at the moment I'm feeling quite apart from myself, like from my body. Do you know what I mean? And as soon as I thought that, the compassion for,

flooded in. The gates opened. Gates opened and I connected to myself and I wasn't just anti myself in the mirror. Oh, fuck yeah. The weave that I got for the Olivier's, okay? Yep, Zoe had some red carpet shit to deal. Red carpet shit. And also the postpartum shed for me has been quite real.

I think I do need to book that flight to Turkey. It's around here. What do you mean? I want to get the hair plugs. What, have you had your hair fall out a bit since your... Oh my God, yeah. Really? Time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll just add that to the lit. Okay, add hair to the finish. Add that. You didn't tell me that. The disappearance of edges. The edges disappearance, okay. It's not something I can coincide on.

Right. Can I say I saw you at the Livia's? Goodness me. You looked breathtaking. Well, not only. I didn't see long hair. I thought your hair was shoulder length. You were in the red dress.

It was long down the back. Oh, nice. back. Yeah, I wanted it to sort of, again, it's, I have, I think, just like this dysmorphia now where I just feel like my hair is not in proportion to my body, which has changed a lot since giving birth as well. So nights like that is the maximum projecting of power. I was there obviously to support my wonderful partner who was nominated. I'm also an associate of the company that did the play. Oh, I didn't know he's nominated. He was nominated for best actor. Oh, okay. I did not know that. All right. And we are all like together in that theatre company. So you're doing the sort of supportive partner. But the thing is, if you go on that red carpet, you're still Zari Ashton. You're not just a partner. So it's sort of balancing both those roles, right?

Because sometimes it would be nice to be like, I'm just like the girlfriend and I'm chilling and I don't need to have my picture taken. But because of who you are, you do have to have that stuff, right? I do. I mean, I'm an associate of the company that produced the play. And so I felt like I was there a little bit in an honest. on, not an on way, but like in a worky way, but yeah, I was there. Onish.

Because we, you know, we always try and support each other, but there is this other element where... Is that him? Speak of the devil. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. And it's hard to get red carpet ready at the moment.

Okay, I'm just going to say it out there. Like, a red carpet is a very stressful, intense, weird place to ever exist on, ever. It's a place where everything is heightened and every bad thing you've ever felt about yourself is heightened. It's heightened. And this level of not one-upmanship, but it's a competitive moment. Do you feel that?

I'm glad you said that because it is. Internally, it's definitely about who wins. Who's going to win this? Who's going to win? Who's going to win? Who's going to win the best? Who's going to win the actual award? Who's going to win networking the best?

It's all about winning. and that's quite a lot. But if you're in it, like the hustle is very real with that side of work life. Yeah. But if you're in the hustle, you're in it. But if you're dipping into the hustle, it can be somewhat more challenging

to just dip in. It's different. It is different. And it is this moment where, you know, it's like, oh, we're all about community. This is about celebrating everyone. But you're right. You're also very much in the cult of the individual

when you're on that carpet, when you're in those spaces, you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're all together. There's like this laser-like protection bubble that everyone has around themselves. Yeah. Because it is, yeah, it is about winning. It is about that very unhealthy cult of individualism that we just, you know, it's just going to take us all down the worst road. But I do enjoy the dreamlike element to the award ceremony in general.

This isn't about even attending them, just watching them. Interesting. Because, yeah, because as you know, I'm not really a musical theatre person, but I was like, oh, Olivia, so I want, whack that on, there'll be some dreamy shit there. And the first thing I saw was some going,

you know, believe in yourself, you can do anything. I was like, you gotta love an award show. It just always, we can't love the aspiration. You gotta love it. It's always about making dreams come true. And there is this big evidence

that dreams do come true. You're right, the aspiration is addictive. Yes. And it's interesting because we watch it on TV is very different to being in the room. Yes. But I, look, what's going through my head right now? Yeah, being a mom, getting ready, difficult.

Being plus size and not having been, you know, previously and then working that whole journey through being in a bigger body. My God. My God. The performative nature of the allyship from brands when it came to women and bigger bodies was real. It's completely a facade. It was performance. completely on the surface.

It was a facade. It's really real. It's very real. If you are not thin, then you don't get a ticket to the game. When you're thin, they're trying to fuck you up as well, but you have a ticket, but they're still trying to fuck with you. When you're in a bigger body, you're like, oh, there's no ticket and you're psychologically, you know.

But I still have to make this work. I still have to be part of this. This is my industry. I still have to go to this. But no one's out there to help you. or make you feel good. No one wants to help you. And I mean, this is such a huge conversation.

Like, when I was in a smaller body, it was at a time where brands were not loaning to women of color. Right. Let's just be on it. And I would turn up to events and sit next to Caucasian counterparts who did not have a CV, but had been loaned the dress. Yeah. From the brand that had said to you, oh, we just don't, mm, don't.

Yeah. Right? And that was real. This sh rattles your confidence completely. Totally. And like you're saying, then you plaster on the smile and you're like,

we're all here together knowing on the inside, this is psychological warfare. We're all out for ourselves. This is psychological warfare. Isn't it, guys? If everyone just said that, it would be amazing.

You'd be like, are you mentally on the edge right now? Yes, I am. Yes. You know, Hamilton's just won the thing. No, that's totally silly. Yeah, I think it's really important to talk about,

I know that not everyone in the world has to go to red carpet ceremonies, but this is a very real part of the industry that you and I are in. And I think it's something that people are privy to because of, you know, we watch this shit. We all have phones. And it is important to talk about actually behind it is a very stressful, difficult. I don't even know the right word. It's a difficult, stressful game to continue to play.

With yourself. Yeah. And actually, you know what? With Instagram, it feels. feels like you don't even really need to go to a red carpet to understand. It's the same sort of game. It's that game of the competition and the, it's against the idea of community.

Yeah. It is about the individual and the individuals rise for the individual's gain. And that is just the most unhealthy place we could ever be in the world. And guess what? That stuff affects how you mother. So for me, I haven't, again, this is with the absolute, you know, disclaimer that I'm in a privileged position to not have gone back to work yet.

But I can't. I have to compartmentalise it. I'm like, I can't be caring that much about myself and care for another human. Right. That was really clear, really early on. And so when I go and I get another injection of how it feels to be in that totally individualistic mindset again,

I'm like, whoa, never the train shall meet for me personally. Like when I'm on the journey on the way home, I'm like, get out of that headspace, get out of that headspace, you're going to have to go and be responsible for other human life. And like, you have to talk yourself down, I do, off the individualism high, back into the community of your own home. Right, okay. Can I just ask, why did you decide to have another baby? Let's talk about how you spoiled your own.

Opportunity for come. Yeah, like, why have you done this to yourself? No, but genuinely, I would love to know the thinking behind wanting another baby so soon, because this is what I hear from a lot of my friends. It's the, like, once you have more than one and everyone's under about two, it's all very, very intense. But this was something that you were very excited about. You know, I know what this is given to your life, but what was the decision behind actually having a bigger family? Actually, I've always wanted a big family.

I've always wanted kids, Keats. Like I'm one of those weird people that has just always wanted them and always known that I wanted to be a mum. I didn't know that about you. Oh my God, always. One of the things I loved about you, I really thought about this yesterday,

was that I thought you were a prolific creator. I could see you doing so many different things, acting, directing, writing, producing. And so in my head, you were just a deeply ambitious person. Wow. But actually, these ideas of a traditional wants of wanting a family and always wanting kids and actually the other day on the phone call we had,

you were like, I actually wasn't that ambitious. Isn't that so interesting? And what you're putting out. You were my ambition threshold. On your mood board. Right. I, do you know, and I love, well, I love that because it is the power of projection

and it's the power of interpretation, right? Honestly, my relationship to ambition is really interesting because I have to reflect back to you for a second. I feel like I've always looked at you and thought that is someone who knows exactly where they're going. They've got their North Star and they are running, skipping. Skipping towards it.

And I just don't see the stammer. I just don't see the join. I just saw you just like heading towards something, which you still are. And interestingly, I've never felt like that. I felt like I've always known what I love. loved to do. You know, I was one of those people who was like, don't want to get another job. Don't want to do this thing. And I just did everything that I could to stay in the

job of storytelling, if you like. Ambition, does it grow deep or does it grow wide? Ambition, does it grow deep? Or even, do you want it to grow deeper or wider? Or are we asking, I mean, always expand. But then deep. See, I think you're in the wide ambition right now. You're like, I have to be productive in these different ways. Yeah. Like, I'm building something. Yes. I'm in my empire state of mine.

Yes. I've got to build. No, stop. I'm literally, my mom and the people we work with, I've always like, you know, we're building the empire. And they're like, can you stop saying that? What I'm actually doing is taking the blueprint of the people that oppress me. And I'm just going to use it to do some other stuff. Thank you.

I find that positive. But you're building the empire, you're expanding. So I feel like you're going wide with your ambition, whereas I definitely feel I'm going deeper with my ambition. I'm trying to get away from the idea of hustle culture. I'm trying to get away from the idea that productivity is what makes me important. And I'm going deeper into where my creation is going to come from next. I can't go wide right now.

I'm too wide in other ways. No. So many other ways. No, no. but when you say wide in other ways, I hope that you're talking about your expanding mind, Zowie. That's the only thing that's expanding. I was actually talking about having two kids.

Oh, right. Yes, well, of course, the physical ramifications of childbirth are inescapable for us all, even Zowie Ashton. Okay? I am deep and wide. I can't, yeah, Zaddy. You're deep by wide. I can't wait to see what you fucking do next.

I can't wait. to see what you do next. Getting back to the work. So that's how I've always been. I've always been a grafter. I've always loved working. I mean, I started as a child. Yeah, because you were even younger than me.

You were 12 on Greenhill, right? No, I never did Great Jill. I was a great chill. I was six when I started. Oh, no, you're more like... I was more like Demon Headmaster. Come on, you know, that's your other favorite. Your other favorite.

Forgive me. A CBBC star, shall we just say. And of course, I notice you, because you looked like me in terms of being mixed race and about my age. Well, very close to my age. So I was like, notice you. But for me, I did feel that was my first validating place set at work.

I was like, oh, right, it's here then. The ambition you saw in me, I just was like, this is where I'm validated. So I, for 20 years, chased that. Like, for the five, eight years, I wasn't on screen. I didn't know who the fuck I was, because that's where my validation was on. set on a camera.

Without that, I had no idea what to do. It was really scary. I think I had a bit of that as well. No, it is scary. It's really disorienting. And I think there's something of the pick-me about it. You know, again, if we're getting under the hood of certain feelings or certain moments in time, I know that I was all about the pick-me.

Being chosen was a rush of, like I was saying, validation. And then it starts. to change and I think you start to realize if I stay a picnic forever it's going to go really, really badly. Like I don't know that I can become a mother and be a picnic. Like I have to pick me and then I have to choose other things. Oh God, I have to pick me. I have to choose me. Like I wrote a poet, a poem. Come on. We all know. We all are like other life as a poet. What the hell? I was doing the poetry thing before anyone was winning Mercury Music Prizes. Like, we were just writing poems in our bedrooms at college. Do you know what I mean? And anyway, so I've always written poetry.

It's always been this way of like understanding myself. Of course you were. College. What year was this? This was early 2000s. Writing the beat poetry, writing the performance poetry, you know, trying to be basically pretend that we lived in New York. But I wrote a poem, I hadn't written a poem for a long time and then I wrote a poem after my first child was born and that one of the lines in it was why I'm going to make myself cry I'm not crying at my own words but you can quiet your own work I've done that but it was like you've wanted me into wanting me that's lovely yeah that's great you've wanted me into wanting me you've wanted me into wanting me and then another line was wanted me into wanting.

But also you told me, you said, follow the happy people. And weirdly, that doesn't actually necessarily mean the people who look happy. It's like follow what kind of dings you up inside. I remember that's when you went to New York to do theatre and fell in love and made great work. It's when I actually stopped acting. It was when I cut off my own ambition. Right. It was when I was following the happy people.

Yeah. I basically left every single age. agent that I had and went to a, I did a play in Broadway, on Broadway. In Broadway. You sound like I've ever acted before. I went in Broadway. Did a thing. I hope you didn't say that while you were there.

Yeah, no, you were on Broadway, absolutely. On Broadway, I did that run of a Broadway play completely unrepresented by any professional person because I was like, I just need the noise to stop. I want this to be a real artistic enterprise for myself. And then I was really effed off that I didn't get nominated for a Tony. I was like, oh yes, it's a business. It's a business. You did this for art.

And now you're pissed off that the art told you this is a business. Anyway, that's by and by. But that was in my process of, yeah, of choosing myself. And I guess another one of my, like, phrases that I'm peddling to people at the moment who are thinking about having, you know, children or starting a family is you have to birth yourself first. I feel like I'm birthing myself first. years. You're nearly there.

What I'm thinking is about children at the moment, like today. Well, it's my birthday week. Yes, it is my birthday week. I'm turning 42. This is quite an important time for me because I really believe in the seven-year cycle. And you should, too. We all should. I do. I do. I do.

Yes. 17, 21, 28, Saturn's return. Explosion. I went bankrupt. My Saturn's return was spicy as hell. And then 28 to 35, dead, really felt dead, Zowie, if I'm honest. I was not alive or awake. And 35, I was talking about therapy yesterday, 35, I actually woke myself up.

A little bit of what you were just saying about the wanting to wanting. Say your line again. Sorry, if you could just quote your poetry. Wanting me into wanting me and wanting me into wanting. Exactly that. That's what happened to me. pissed out of my head outside a weird pub in Richmond and I was like, I just can't live like this anymore.

I have to do something to like live again. Live again. Yes. Participate in life again. Participate. Actively participate. And then you get into, oh God, what do I want? And the beautiful thing is what I wanted was very clear, but not.

Very clear I want to work again. I want my career back. But I thought I just wanted like a Channel 4 show. and a two-bed flat and, you know, just like, I just wanted safety and security and sturdiness and regularity again and consistency.

I also wanted to do my fucking job again. Suffice to say, the last seven years have been the most awake, alive years of my entire life. 100%, Keith. You've taken it out of yourself and into the world. That's really special.

I really fucking hope so. Because if you can't turn your pain into power for other people, then what are we doing here? So I really hope that's what's happened. But yeah, but interestingly, it's funny because the last seven years of success in my work life have been about me being very honest about all the failures and all the hardship I've ever been through. And that becoming part of my success, which has been really like basically I'm trying to celebrate the last seven years of my life as I turned 42.

And as I am very aware of a new beginning of a cycle. Hallelujah. So do I want to have kids? You know what I read in that? So when that relates to children, are we still in the questions? But let me just reflect on something that I'm hearing you say, which is that that cycle was actually about taking the shame out your game. Oh, big time.

Which I love, like you're saying, just going, okay, I'm just going to start talking in an authentic way about what I've been through. Once the shame starts to leave your game, you could do anything. You level up. Suddenly you're like... And that makes complete sense. I am all powerful

because then nothing can harm you. Nothing can get you because... Nothing can harm you. It's all out. It's fucking here. You and Lily, I love you're both like... I mean, that is what both Lily and I do. Should we just talk about all the terrible shit that we've ever done? I don't ever have to us.

Let's do it. Look, what we've created, but also the relationship, like, I'm so happy that in the last seven years, our friendship turned into this beautiful, big... healing, loving thing for ourselves and other people. That's how I want to turn 42, where my relationships are in a good place. But sure, so now I could be like,

right, so I should probably have some kids now. This is great. But you called me the other day from the Lou. Notes from the bathroom. This is a side piece, side hustle, Miss Me Show, which is Zawi voice noting me from the bathroom. Zowie does a fucking good voice note. Could we please do that?

This could be the big brother and that would be like big brother's little brother. It's just me in a bathroom doing voice notes to you. No, but they're so good. I'm sure for every mother or father, any parent that is listening now, that is your time. The bathroom. That's your moment.

You were like, I'm going to read something. I think you're going to give yourself a little manicure or something. There was a new cream you wanted to try out. I was trying out some creams that I'd unearthed from like a few old gift boxes. I was like, I'm going to just take this time to moisturise. Yeah, because this is the time I have. And what my friend Beth, who was doing my hair for today, she's got a little girl called Winona.

And she said, it's not that your ambition changes, but you don't have the same time to execute it. And I was like, right, it's a time thing, this motherhood thing. It's a time thing. Interesting. See, I don't feel quite the same. Time is part of it. Time is a massive.

part of it but I think everyone has I think every creative mother has their thing right and let's not forget I think there is an element to motherhood and I want to circle back to your where your head is at with motherhood we're not getting away from that but I think there is something about children which is a bit like fame you know they say fame is like a magnifying glass if you were a some see you next Tuesday before, you're going to be an even bigger one afterwards. Oh, I've never heard that. You never heard that? No, that's like a magnifying glass.

If you were like humble, you know, charitable, then that will become potentially magnified through your journey through fame. So, and obviously there's like, it's not just about being like a good person or a bad person, but whatever your thing is, it will potentially have a magnifying glass over it if you become famous. and I think that's interestingly similar to becoming a parent. Like children are these magnifying glasses, like whatever you were struggling with before will just become so much bigger

before it becomes like the right size again. And so if that, if you're saying Beth is her thing as time, maybe time was her thing before. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like I don't necessarily hard relate to. that because I think my thing is more about the identity shift.

Like, and that was always my thing. Don't get me wrong. Don't get me wrong. I'm also terrified of losing my identity. Mother. That also sounds terrifying. But then who the fuck am I anyway? Do you know what I mean?

That's what I mean. That's why I'm like, birthing yourself before birth is probably the best thing you can do because if you think that child is going to put you in deeper touch with who you are, we need to pull out now like pull out now okay pull out got it because that's not going to it's not going to happen quite literally

pull out pull out okay that's my advice to you but if you're open to the idea of birthing every unhealed wound that you've ever had continue turn up the marvin go

just sit that wine and turn continue down that road is that your biggest Is that your biggest fear factor at this point? Are you like, I'm not going to know who I am, or is it time, or is it ambition, or is it? Because children can amplify your ambition, don't forget. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, there was, I was trying to find this Lily Cole documentary.

I liked what it was called, actually. Oh, yeah, the pram in the hall. The pram in the hall, yes, calling to another text, the baby on the fire escape. It's a great documentary about whether children inhibit or enhance an artistic life. Great question. She was talking about Barbara Hepworth, who had four kids, but as we all... I think a shelf just fell. Oh, no.

Ominous. Yes, the shelf just fell in my shower. That wasn't... What was I saying? Barbara Hephaith had four kids. Okay, maybe I'm going to have four kids. All right. Can I just say there have been quite a few little ghosties in the system?

Yes, yes, yes. And that happens when I'm around people as well, so... Because I'm sorry. Something's going on. That shelf is like nailed to the wall. That's really good. Okay, I feel like that is the spirit of your unborn child. I'm just going to say that.

I just have to say it. I have to fucking say it when it comes to mind. Okay. The shelf just fell in my shower and we think it might be the spirit of my unborn child. So who knows? Barbara Hepworth did have four children, as we know, was prolific in creating and making throughout her entire life. So she's someone who very much, whose ambition, I'm not, I don't know how it changed, but it was still very clear and present during her life.

It also involved a very big family. What are you thinking? Where's the pain body? Where's the fear factor? Let's locate together. I am running around this city like a busy bee and I don't see myself as like being able to be sporty and young and exciting to kind of go with what I'm putting out into the world with sport.

if I was like pregnant or like thinking about starting a family. I feel like I've got too much running around to do. And children ground you quite literally, to the ground. I'm also very worried about it being, it making me very lonely. I've seen quite a lot of loneliness experienced with my friends. A lot of loneliness that doesn't see it, like that seems to shock them all. It's existential, yeah, for sure. Existential loneliness.

It's existential loneliness. It's existential loneliness. You're not by yourself. Right. The thing is you're right to be fearful of all of these things. I think there's also something really healthy about talking about the realities of motherhood, but definitely in the context that we're talking about when it's linked or bound with creativity. You do have to be real.

I have to tell you the funniest. I don't know why I didn't make a mockumentary, like a behind-the-scenes documentary of this. So when I had to go back and reshoot a huge chunk of a film that I did called The Marvel. The Marvel film called The Marbles. I had to go back and reshoot this movie that I was in the best shape of my life before when I did it. First time round after having a baby.

I was four months postpartum, okay? And they were like, oh, we can do it while you're pregnant. We can reshoot while you're pregnant. And I was like, guys, like, I think I need to send you a photo of myself. They're like, no, no, here's your latex cat suit. And if you could just cut your fitting. It's okay. We'll just pin like a bright green piece of felt.

over your tummy and we'll work our VFX magic. And I was like, I need to send you a picture for real. And I sent a phone myself. They were like, um, yes, in fact, we will probably. Give you a little bit more time. A little bit more time. I'm like, okay. I was like, you can't VFX my like walking that you can't.

That is really interesting that that was on the two sides of, uh, pregnancy. Because I was going to say to you in terms of like discussing what your ambition and looked like before motherhood and post motherhood, did this moment of making the Marvel film called The Marvels? Can we just be clear? This is a Marvel film. Yeah, it wasn't like a weird homage. This is a real Marvel film, okay?

So it's like Hollywood Americans were there. And but I was going to ask you, did you feel, when you did it first time around, you're saying you're in the best shape of your life, did you feel like this was the pinnacle of success in your career? Because on paper, you would imagine it would be a peaking moment. Did it feel like that? I was so scared that I wasn't going to stay on the path that I was on

of like stripping everything back and wanting to become a mother that I nearly didn't do it. Wow, fucking hell. I was like, I don't, this is a massive door to open energetically. And I guess, yeah, on paper for your career. But I was like, oh, is this going to take me off the path? Everything that I was doing was like stripping away so that I could unleashed. the things that I'd learned, like you said, being an actor or being a child actor or being whatever, being the pick me, having the validation externally. And I was like, is this going to

take me off the path? And actually an amazing mum friend of mine was like, are you kidding? Just getting the best shape of your life. And rock it. Then you'll be in an even better position to go, you know, because I wasn't in that, that I was in good shape, but I wasn't like strong and strong. Yeah. I mean, I actually was, but then we'd had COVID. Also, I imagine Marvel training's a bit different to like going down the gym. Well, it was, it was more like, what can I do? Like, not like I'm at the gym or I'm with a trainer. I'm doing X, Y, Z.

It's like, look how I can move. Look how I can be in myself. Like, the martial arts of it was so beautiful. After being, you know, a teenager in P.E. And, like, having, like, that scene in Clueless, where you, like, have the one hit at the ball and then over the tennis. Yeah. Over the net.

And then, like, move on. I'm very much not a private school. No. I mean, I play aggressive tennis now. That's not tennis. But it was someone going like, you can do this. You can move this way. Anyway, I am really glad that I did it for that reason.

But yes, going back and having to reshoot after having a baby was like, whoa, I thought I was ready to go back to work. And I'm just not. And actually having this experience is a real gift, hanging on a wire and thinking my uterus was going to fall out on like one of the crew members' heads. Jesus Christ. Jesus. But I imagine that happens a lot, right?

Going back to work and then being like, oh, I wasn't even kind of. I mean, I'm also obviously are very aware that a lot of people have no fucking choice when they have to go back to work. Yeah. And when is the right time to go back and try and make both parts of your life work together? The other thing is, is this simple. I know too much. This is what happens.

Being older is a little bit scratchy. I would love to be a mother in my 40s. Yeah, no, that is the truth. I would love to be a mother in my 40s because I've built the life that I wanted to give myself. Fucking out. Yeah. Oh, there you go.

Yeah. I'd be proud to share this life with a child. That is a beautiful answer. And again, there's, okay, we're talking about creative motherhood specifically, right? And look, motherhood is that everyone talks about. that's this monolithic thing. It's so layered and nuanced and gritty and bitty. But if we're talking about creativity in motherhood, right,

which I think is a very under-explored subject. I have lots of books about it behind me. Yes, well, of course you do. Of course you do. I put them there randomly before you even ask me to do the programme. But like what I hear you also saying is there's a child in you that is proud of you. Yeah. fuck you

and you can put your arms around that child fuck you okay that's how deep it goes everyone's like the child is outside of me it's like what it is the one inside of you

the one that you wanted to help the one that you wanted to make proud maybe you've even got used to the idea of sharing you're only child right and so the idea of sharing is not necessarily one that like drops in naturally. No, when I was 15 and I moved to Nana's house

and lived with all my cousin. We'd lost all our money. My mum and Garf moved to this place called Clapton. I was like, that sounds very far away from Portobella. People will never drink coffee here. I don't think I'm coming with you. I was like, I'm going to go live with Nala and Cameron in Primrose Hill with all my cousins.

And I loved it because they had a big, beautiful house. And I got to live with all my cousins like siblings. And I loved that. But I was like making myself. lovely things to eat. And I was like, that's nice. I'll make some for Mabel and Ty. I was like, why the fuck are they getting some of my macaroni and cheese?

She's like, because you're making it with like, it's a family. I was like, oh, I have to learn this shit. It was really, it's the whole thing. I was like, what do you mean I have to give some to Mabel? Oh, right, of course. I learned a lot of that, actually. I did learn a lot. I love where you're at.

I love where you're at, but I want to say to you, it's also okay to not have children. Correct. And we're all in this conversation together. That's what I believe so strongly now, is that there are conversations that we can all have together. Sometimes motherhood, creative motherhood, you know, in the little parentheses we're working in right now,

is just grief. There is so much grief in the most beautiful, expansive, exquisite way that we all have something to share within that kind of. within that grief, exactly. Zowie, we've banged on so long. I think we have to stop. Thank you. Zowie, it's so nice to talk to you.

I feel like I need to just go sit down and really think about this motherhood thing. And, but we're going to talk about crying for Listen, bitch, on Monday. We're going to talk about, I can't believe we haven't done crying, but I think it's going to be wonderful. I've been crying a lot, releasing a lot, and I'm a bloody good crier.

I think it's my Pisces Moon. I blame my Pice's moon, darling. Sorry, I'm an emotional river. Wet, fishy moony things. Exactly. Paises is a fish, right? Yeah, man. And Phoebe Oliver told me it's the most ancient star sign. Wow. It's the oldest sign. Makes sense for you. Thank you.

So we will see you on Monday for Listen, bitch. The theme is... Crying. Zowie Ashton. You'll never change. And I wouldn't want you to. I don't want you to change. Don't you go changing? I won't. I actually can't.

No, yeah, you can't. You've got no time to. Thanks for listening to Miss Me. This is a Persephoneica production for BBC Sounds. Hello, I'm Tyler West. And I'm Alfie Watts. And this is The Detour, the official companion podcast to race across the world.

This is the post-episode checkpoint where you'll hear the latest chat around each episode from us and our race superfan special guests. Plus, I'll be joined each week by a resident travel expert, Alfie. That's you, ma'am. I'll be revealing my optimal way to travel through each leg, including visits to all of those unmissable detours along the way. And we'll also have some not seen anywhere else exclusive content at the end of every episode.

I cannot wait. The detour will land straight after each episode of Race Across the World. You can watch on EyePlayer or listen on Sounds, where you'll also find extra bonus content. We'll see you then.