Miss Me? - That’s Why They Call it Spelling

Episode Date: November 13, 2025

Miquita Oliver and Jordan Stephens discuss lying, the magic of reading, and the lifecycle of girlbands.This episode contains very strong language and adult themes. Credits: Producer: Natalie Jamieson Technical Producer: Will Gibson Smith Assistant Producer: Caillin McDaid Production Coordinator: Rose Wilcox Executive Producer: Dino Sofos Assistant Commissioner for BBC: Lorraine Okuefuna Commissioning Editor for BBC: Dylan Haskins Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

This episode of Miss Me contains adult themes, strong language, and blue. We talked about blue. I'm so tired. What do you mean? You're not allowed to be tired anymore. I'm so tired. No. Not allowed.

I'm exhausted. No, I finished the play of my body is just collapsing. It's just, it's like, I can't explain the feeling. It's just, I feel like I need to be in bed for a week. This is what people say when they go through something really intense for a long time. You're running on adrenaline. The minute you tell your body that you can stop, you usually just fall down. Yeah.

So let's record, miss me. Yeah, I'm just tired. But it's, it's great. It's a good thing to have done. Children, it's actually done. It's not just a great thing to have done. It is done. You completed it, bro.

I did. I've done theatre. It was well reviewed. I think it got better by the end as well. Some people came to see it like three times and said that. I mean, obviously, it should get better. Yeah, it should get better. But while I was thinking of you on like the Friday night, thinking, okay, if he's done Friday night, then tomorrow he has two shows and they actually are the last ones.

Yeah, we finished on a double day. It was surreal. I bet it was odd. I came into the theatre in the morning on the Saturday. I felt a bit emotional, and I was like, oh, fucking hell, this has been such a huge part of my life for three months. And I remember, I have a real vivid memory of somebody being like, this will be over in the flash. And then it was over. But I didn't feel like it was a flash.

It didn't feel flashy when you were in it. Yeah, I very much felt like I was in the flesh. I've had it before that feeling of wonder how I feel after this happens, you know, and then it happens. And you think, oh, that was just happened. But that, I certainly felt like I was very present in it happening. And so I felt a bit emotional Then I had a coffee And then just instantly didn't feel emotional

Which was very weird And so I was like I wondered where those tears went And then I did the two shows Celebrated Tamsin almost knocked someone out With her full stentures on stage In the last night

Which was hilarious Wait Wait what she did What? As it was the last night We were all talking about They throw him in a crowd I wonder if at the last show

You just think I'll just do something weird I kicked the crumpet off stage as well We did all that But it was But anyway It was a very eventful last show And then yeah

And then a Sunday morning The Sunday morning The stage designer posted A video of the set lifting As you saw at the beginning To this music And the music kind of becomes more tripped out And almost haunting

And I heard the music And watch the furniture go up On the set but no one was on stage And I just started crying I get I understand that completely I was like that I'm never going to hear that again and then have to do something for two hours.

Do you know what? That's probably what makes people do theatre again. Because when you're in it, it did feel a bit like, you're never going to do this again. It's obviously too much work. Not too much work, which is quite a lot, especially with Miss Me. But I think it's like having a baby, you kind of like, I can't ever do this again.

And then you forget how hard it was and then someone shows you something emotional. You're like, yeah, let's do it again. A lot of people have said that to me. I have no idea. Like, my, my assumption with all acting jobs is that's the last one I'll ever do. Okay. Good.

I don't you should stop doing that for just a minute. No, but it is, that's just that, I mean, it is one of the few disciplines where you're, you're instantly unemployed afterwards. Unless you're, unless you're, like, smashing it. You put, like, I don't know, three or four things in a row, but ultimately in terms of acting. Freelance, creative. Yeah, it's nuts. Honestly, I don't, I don't envy actors.

I know, I know it sounds weird because I'm an actor, but I'm like, I'm not. It's not my focus. But I did put my absolute all into that place. I feel very proud of myself. Jordan, I'm so proud of you. Thank you. When I came to see it, you were so fantastic. Thanks.

You were like physically, metaphysically, just in this fucking role. And I was like, oh, he's an actor. And it's just beautiful to know that you can do something like this. So just take the sleep, take the rest. And I would say, you know, think about your next moves carefully. But you're the one that said that you'd be happy to do celebrity. Tracers, which I don't think is a move that should be in your future at all.

Why not? Have you watched it yet? I know you said... McKita. McKita. It's brilliant. Tell me why it's brilliant. Celebrity traces this series particularly.

Tell me why it's good. The concept's already popular. There's like a game called Among Us that people used to play when I was younger. You know, the idea of who... And wink murder. Yeah. We've obviously done a lot of telly. We can be cynical about it.

There are some shows where there's a presentation of what is reality and then there's the reality of doing the show. I think ultimately it is a test of people's judge of character and an ability to perform and have the extra level

of celebrity involved in that is even more fascinating. But genuinely, the celebrity, I don't want to ruin traitors for anyone who hasn't seen it, but the faithful of this celebrity traitors, they really struggle to find the traitors which I think is quite funny

being that they're all celebrities. I think it's like a funny underlying message of like, everyone's really charming. Right, okay. Or less likely to crack under pressure. There was a single person who won, and it is an absolute, I cannot believe,

that they were able to win as a traitor. It was incredible. At one point, someone asked me if they were a traitor, and they just laughed, and they still won. They literally laughed. But it's the double bluff. It's the double bluff. Yeah, because people are overthinking it.

But anyway, my point is, I would love to do it because it's, you know, I've spent a lot on my life, people watching, and I'm fascinated by people. be, I'm not sure I'd be a very good traitor though. I will say that off the jump. I was going to say, I don't know whether you'd be very good at really the core of it, lying. No, I don't. I think you've got too pure a heart. I mean, listen, everyone lies. I definitely know how to spin a lie, but I would, it would wear on me. I think my issue, I think my issue is that I find it very hard to not, like, emanate how I'm feeling.

Right. Can we talk about who the trait was? This is out. Sorry, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was Alan Carr. So it was Alan Carr. Poor little bastard. So how did he carry burden? Because he seems like someone who probably doesn't deal with anxiety. Oh, my God. He actually just burst into tears, which he must have done because he's there at the end and he's watching people get banished who were faithful and people have overthought his. And the wild thing is the reason why he lasted so long was because one of the first things he did was kill Paloma Faith.

Oh my God, what a sentence. I know. And because they're so close. Even Paloma was shocked to her. that it was Alan. But the only reason why he did it was because he needed to touch someone's face and that they were close.

So he just touched her face. He felt awful about it. But maybe that makes him a better traitor than you think. Maybe he's still falling all of us. Maybe he's falling me. Maybe he's falling me that he's a bad traitor. Exactly.

But there's those are funny other undertones as well. Like, I don't know him enough personally to have a real opinion, but I do find it quite funny that there was an online narrative. That people were just like, Stephen Fry isn't even that smart. oh come on

no I'm sorry if there's something you know by being a British person living in this country Steven's Fry is like the face of smart yeah that's what's so funny he was absolutely rattled

him and the historian David David Olisoga he got to the final right but he got to the final because he was continually scapegoated by the by the traitors to protect them

and he's clear listen let's be serious obviously him and Stephen Fryer are intelligent men but they genuinely I don't think they made one conclusion that that was anywhere near a possible traitor. The only thing Stephen Frye tried to do was rework how they found the traitors. That's an interesting thing.

He kind of went from an alternative perspective. He kind of switched it up a bit. The person who was most apt was Nick Muhammad, who played an absolute blinder and then fucked it in the last second. Oh, no. He overthought in the very last moment. Yeah, he overthought it. But his overthinking also made sense in a way. he basically he aligned himself with a faithful for a while who was also brilliant joe marla those two were the standouts as people and also there was an irish actor at the beginning called ruth who clocked jonathan ross so quickly and then but then they just killed her can i just ask i would like to know jonathan ross's vibe in celebrity shows he was hilarious was he was drunk on traitor power it was so funny he ran around the whole place so he'd start a rumor and then he'd start a rumor and then he'd

run after the person and go, someone started a rumor about you. That's like from a boarding school shit. But I would love to do it. Okay, right. I have a way you can rehearse. Okay. At Christmas, because we're all going to Sri Lanka, by the way, world. We have, Uncle Nick has a celebrity, has a traitor's board game.

I played it with them last Christmas and I was the fucking traitor. And I didn't really, I hadn't even really seen the show. And the only thing that saved my ass was how. how untrustworthy Garfield's energy is. So I could just put it all on him. Mom and Nick were like, it's so Garth. I was like, I'm cool. Because Garfield just acts guilty.

Just selling the dream. I know. And also it's one of those ones where what would undo me as a faithful? Because I would want to be a faithful. Yes, tell me now. What would undo me is that basically there's a wild thing in human behavior where if someone becomes a suspect of something, right, in someone's mind, and they're aware of it.

So if you say to someone like, I'm suspicious of you or da-da-da-da, there's pretty much nothing that a person can do that doesn't become more suspicious. Like if you're actually like, if I said to a person, act normal. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anything past the point of act normal is the weirdest thing. Like it's the weirdest thing you could possibly. Okay, so it's so you being told, be normal. If there was a space where for whatever, If I was a faithful and people suspected me. Might happen. If we're playing at Christmas, let's say my mum suspects you.

But I'm saying that if someone was then like, are you this? And I was like, no, no, no, I'm not. But then I would be so aware of what I'm doing. I was just saying. Everything I do would make it seem like I am. Do you know what I'm saying? That wasn't convincing at all. I know, but it's honest.

This is good. You're shit at lying. It's honest. Let's talk about lies. Because there are so many different kinds of lies. And I remember when I started therapy six years ago, she said, what do you think your biggest problem is? I said, I lie too much.

And I was living in lots and lots of white lies, which can, of course, then become exhausting, actually. It's really exhausting when you can't stop lying. I wasn't a compulsive liar, but I was just always bending the truth. And I don't really know why, but it affected my life greatly, negatively. So it's really great that you don't have this back history of like being in loads of deceit and lies. Well, to see, I've definitely lied for sure in my past 100%.

And I've had big lies and they've torn me apart. That's what I mean. I know the effect that has on me, like spiritually. I'm in a constant of anxiety. As I've got older, I've learned my responsibility towards not radically offering the truth. Like, that's one thing that I did a lot where, yeah, I tell the truth, but sometimes I just volunteer the truth. Do you know what, though?

I think that's ADHD because Sasha said to me, like, It's, I believe it to be why I used to tell people's secrets, I think, because I just get a bit like, and it is a form of ADHD where you just can't keep your mouth shut. That I agree with, although weirdly for me, and this might be specific, I'm a really good secret keeper because when someone tells me it's a secret, I enter into a state of object permanence where it just doesn't exist to me anymore. Of course you do. Honestly, it just enters through my psyche and then it just disappears.

I like that. I'd like to enter that space. What's it called? Object permanence. It is associated with ADHD but in other spaces. So it describes something not existing if it's not directly in front of you. Oh my God. Isn't that freedom? Not really because sometimes it can isolate people, for example,

or it can affect relationships because you might not be able to nurture friendships because you actually forget that the person's there until they message you or until something, you know, you see a picture or you pick something up and you go, God, that person, you know, it's not, I guess it can come across as rude and uncaring when actually it's just a bizarre kind of brain tick. I mean, look, I'm sure some people might now use this as an excuse, but it just, okay, another example would be, I guess there's a crossover with object permanence and maybe like time blindness, you know, obviously an ADHD thing is not being

able to prepare for events, but then the events come and then there's an instant response to it. That's kind of a version as well. Oh, that would be like me and homework. Yeah, right. Some people are very aware of an event happening and they plan everything up until that point and then, you know, if they've done it well, then the event's not as daunting.

But for some people, the event doesn't exist until the day before. Yeah, and then you go straight into Anxiety Land. Yeah, and then you go into Panic World. There is something about the history of the white lie that I quite like. What did it say? It said, it's amazing, by the way, that you recognise the lying thing because that is like a big step for people to even just acknowledge it.

Oh, thank you. You mean in therapy? Yeah, that's a huge to be like, I used to lie all the time. I think a lot of people get stuck in that loop. It's hard to get out of it. Yeah, it was horrible saying out loud. I was like, well, it's fucking wrong with me. But I guess these were white lies.

And a white lie is, it's defined as a free from spot or blemish and innocent while linking black lie with dirty and stuff. soiled, indicative of condemnation or discredit. So the history of the term white lie traces back to the ancient associations humans made between the daytime and night time. Black magic, white magic. White lies are deemed as innocent, but I don't think they are, if you're living, surrounded in them every day like I was.

And I used to know someone who was a compulsive liar. And she was, I found it really uncomfortable and confusing and difficult to be around. And I had to work with her. And it was, I think it's like a real illness when someone lives in that perpetual state of being. Yeah. I won't name name. It's weird, the white and black lie.

I don't even know there was black lie was considered like a more daunting lie. But does it not actually blow your mind though that what a lie is just as a concept? It freaks me out that someone can just say something that's not real. Yeah. And then they put it into reality. Yes. What blows my mind is that the brain can do it. You can say something.

But it does always feel. different for you. Even if you're acting your ass off, a lie does make a certain part of inside you shake. In the Toltec teaching, the ancient Toltecs, they believe that lies are, they drain your life force because they don't exist. So you're bringing an energy into reality that you then have to support with your own energy. Oh my God. That's so good. Whereas the reason why truth is so freeing is because it doesn't require any energy and if anything, it's relief. So if you follow truth or live in your truth as people say nowadays in like a pop way, then you feel motivated by it

because it's not requiring any energy to exist in it. Oh my God. Can you write that down for me? I'll give me the book. Yes, please. Interesting. God, energy is so fucking powerful.

Margaret Busby said to me once, energy is the most powerful thing we have. And I've been in this kind of mastering my own energy, like a fucking ninja, like steering the own course of your own piece and your own ship. and at the Booker Prize yesterday this just kept coming up people kept talking about it

there were some books that were about it people just kept talking about this whole thing of energy and how powerful it is and I've never been to the Booker Prize God I loved it have you ever been Is the Booker Prize the one

Was it Flesh that one? Absolutely Jordan you are correct David Saloy yeah He's a British Hungarian author and he's just written this incredible novel called Flesh which sounds fantastic It's the Oscars

I really want to read that Yeah he was amazing I really want to read that book. He was amazing and they had these great sort of short two-minute films with brilliant actors like Catherine Ryan

Stormsie was in one also Arlo Parks was in one they were cultural figures reading excerpts from the shortlists and it was really good Stormsy did flesh and it was good I'd love to win the book of prize So this is why I'm telling you

what they announced yesterday which has been announced anyway so this is out people know is that they are launching the children, first ever, children's booker prize. So the Booker Prize for Children's Literature in 2027. You could win that? Yeah, if I'm legible.

You already write children's books. I mean, it's very hard. Also, kids' books weird because, you know, that world in itself is, there are certain people who have used their public notoriety to sell kids books. And some people who have written legitimately good kids' books, so it's hard to decipher.

Sometimes I feel like there are people who are just writing kids books and they maybe deserve the awards. No, no, I love, I'm very proud of my kids. I think they're brilliant kids' books. I'm just saying I can understand that as a dilemma. Yeah, yes, but I, I mean, to be fair, I haven't read your kids' books, but I imagine they're fucking wonderful, like everything you do.

I was shortlisted for the Waterstones Prize for my first book. Fantastic, babe. That's great. Thanks. It really is. Yeah, it was a really nice environment. There were a lot of really interesting people there. I'm trying to do things.

I'm trying to say yes to invitations that get me into rooms with interesting people. where I get to just learn things. I can imagine the relief of being in a room of people who at least have a mutual respect for books. I mean, fuck me. Because I have to say, fashion things, everyone's always gossiping. TV things, I quite like,

because it's like industry chat. But this is like, everyone is just like genuinely there about this passion for literature, which is very exciting. It was a really beautiful night. Can we actually play Penelope Lively talking about how important it is

to now have the, the Booker Prize for Children's Literature? It's great news that Booker is launching a Booker Prize for a children's book. So why? Why does children's literature matter? Well, let me jump in at once with Orden's pronouncement on this, W.H. Orden, the poet. He said, there are good books that are only for adults because their comprehension presupposes adult experiences, but there are no good books that are only for children.

Exactly so. And I think that those of us who've written with equal application for adults and for children know, and we aren't many, is that a children's book is a particular endeavour. You're writing for a literary innocent. You're writing for someone without preconceptions of what a story should be or how it should behave. Right, so let go and take off. Shed your own assumptions about narrative. Thank you, Fenelope.

Yeah, my man's done. both that's right yeah yeah i've also been in that world but it's funny because i would argue that the angle that in which i've approached kids books is to write to like at the very least the child within the adult as well she that her angle was interesting where it was like can we imagine writing a book purely for the unaffected and developing mind of a child like how do you approach that it was really interesting she spoke about narrative structure you know we are the ones who essentially model the concept of a story to children, can we play with that idea, which I love. But I also feel that our child

energy, especially with creative types, but with everybody, everyone has their child still with them. Yeah, we're all trying to heal that child. Yeah. And one of the things that inspired me the most to write a kid's book, because, oh, Emily, I want to write, you know, adult books for a long time. But it was because I was reading one to my mate's kid. I was, it affected me. Of course it did. And I was like, this book's fucking sick. Like, what this, you know, I said to her, Like, why don't you go play with your toys? I'm going to finish this by myself. I'm just going to sit here and read The Hungry Catapillar and give me some space.

Well, not the Hungry Catapillar, man. Listen, the Hungry Catapillar is deep. This is why I like children's books because they're deeper than they seem on the outside. And it's where we all learn how to be human from the same places, from folk tales and stories and books and characters that teach you about pain, about villains, about heroes, about loss, about joy. love. It's where you learn your morals. I mean, if you do, if you take on the right things from what you're learning. So I think that children's literature is so important. I have quite a lot of it around my house as inspiration for work. I have Good Night Moon. That shit's never leaving my life. I also have, oh, the places you'll go, Dr. Zeus.

Like that kind of abstract absurdism kind of vibe. I love that. I love where the wild things are funny bones. Where the wild things are funny bones. Janet Allen Allberg, a massive. Michael Rosen. I love Janet and all of workbooks. Yeah, yeah. Honestly, all of that was huge chicken soup for the soul and then actually when I was a kid one of my first loves was actually poetry. I felt

it really engaged with the fact that it was short form, a couple of pages sometimes half a page, Benjamin Zephaniah John Higley. These people, you know, I loved poetry as a kid just because it was so you know, you talk about the morals and the life lessons, whatever else, but and actually to

go back to what Penelope was saying. Yeah, I've been lovely. That is one space where there is no structure. That's probably what I was drawn to. Maybe she's completely right as a kid. More poetry, right. Well, you can put a poem on a page in any shape you want. You can have a huge page divides.

You can leave massive gaps in the paragraphs. You can do a whole poem with every word starting with the same letter. You can have every sentence ending with the same phrase. Like, there's so much more space and scope for creativity and poetry. And I think maybe I was drawn to that as a kid. Yeah, there's quite a lot of autonomy and freedom in it. And you talk about morals, man, like Zephaniah in those books. Talking turkeys is one of my first books I read.

And, you know, I think he's preaching. But I feel like he's talking a lot about Aitow in those books. Yeah. He's like fighting for the freedom of turkeys and shit, you know. Like it's just, but, you know, even if I couldn't necessarily conceive of like why he as an adult is saying that, the language and the humor and the wit. Yeah. I just love words, man.

I love that you can play with words. I love that you can play with them. This is why I loved being there yesterday. It just felt like I was in this like ceremony of words. It was really, I was like, this is my room. Booker Prize. It turns out it's really my room. It is your room.

Maybe, you know, I feel, you know, I feel the same. If that means anything, you know, I feel, I feel really enriched when I get to be around people who choose to engage with the world in that way. It's actually Autumn's room now. Autumn was my assistant Jordan for about a year and a half. It's a huge part of Miss Me. and yeah we worked on it together for a long time and I just I really miss her

she went off to be a big wig in publishing and I was really proud of all of her success now and to take her to the Booker Prize and realize that she's in this world of publishing now she's at Simon and just felt like wow full circle shit yeah that's really cool yeah my 96 year old Uncle John always says to me

he goes you writing yet I'm like yeah yeah not really I'm developing stuff he's like no you need to put a pen to paper. I have no idea why I'm meant to write and I don't really know the path that will lead me there but I know that... Oh no, I did do some writing last year and I fucking loved it. What am I talking

about? Yeah, no, I do like writing. It's super important. Yeah, I mean, look, the mad thing is, by the standards I was raised in, the world I was raised in, I'm not that much of an avid reader. I read, but I read very slowly and I go in short bursts of, like, obsessive reading and then I stop.

I think we forget the strength of that the word will never die man and that is it's magic like it's words of magic that's why they call it spelling yeah that's right that's actually quite good and cursing yeah oh I never even thought about that even the concept of music you know you sing a song write a lyric you know or write a book write a book right whatever someone will read that hear that and their consciousness is altered that is essentially what a spell is we we've heightened it for and entertainment purposes, but I can change someone's day with a sentence. Yeah, I guess that is magic.

Like, to flip it, I guess maybe I'll be more relatable. I could change someone's day negatively with words. Well, you can also change your own day negatively with words. This is what I mean by mastering my own piece because it's like that is, you are a fucking magician. Every day, absolutely. It's unbelievable what thoughts can do and how much they can change your life and others. It's like I've ruined people's lives just with my energy, not ruin people's lives, but told people what was what and I didn't need to open my mouth.

Maybe, yeah. I mean, also there is a conversation that we had around people finding the Book of Prize a bit elitist. But that's why I think that reading as children can really save all of our lives because when we do that so early, when it becomes part of our lives, as early as it can be, reading and learning, it then doesn't become something that you have to like enter, a world you have to enter. you suddenly realise that the beauty about books is that they are for everyone. They're for everyone. Where I have a slight, I'm concerned with the lack of reading

within boys and men. That's the thing I've just heard. I mean, it's not like an opinion. I was told that by my publishers. You know, women make up most of the book market. Men read non-fiction books because there's a belief that fiction is sometimes a waste of time

when it obviously isn't. Not obviously, but in my humble opinion, it isn't. There's so much truth in fiction. Yeah, but didn't. say this to me once because I told I said it to Lily and she or maybe me and Lily talked about it. So men often

were written by like autobiographies or self-help books but the idea of engaging with a story written by a person is less by the way this is a generalisation obviously loads of men read you know there's so much to learn about other people's experiences

lives you may never lead in books that's what's so beautiful about it but I also feel that the issue is school I think for a lot of of people, and there's boys in my life who feel this way, it's fucked their idea of what reading is. It's not pleasurable. They immediately, in their teenage years, associate reading with pressure and, I guess, judgment, you know? Some kids are asked to stand up and read books in front of a whole classroom. I know, but I used to love doing that. Yeah, no, some people don't.

But some people don't. Also, there's, you know, you get a couple of books that you read through in English lit. You might not like that book. You might just be completely zoned out the whole time. and then your memory of engaging with an inverted commas classic book, like it might be, I don't know, I don't fuck with this. Yeah, but maybe that's why, maybe a good place to go for everyone is to remember primary school reading. Like being read a story at nap time, don't tell me that wasn't cozy shit. I think kids, no, no, I think kids like reading. I think they do.

Primary school, but it might be secondary school where these other things that you're talking about start to come in. When we were, when we're at the book, the judges were Roddy Doyle, Iyabami Adabio, Sarah Jessica Parker, Chris Power, and Kylie Reid. And they had to read the shortlist, each book on the shortlist, six books, three times each. Yeah, that's mad. No, but Roddy said something really interesting. He said, once you start reading something over and over that you've already read, it starts to give you more of the feeling of listening to music. and it kind of gets into your soul and your thoughts in a different way. No, I really believe that.

I feel like we should have a break. Jordan Blah, you're just like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Just shoot it. Close that beautiful mouth and let's take a little break. Let's do it. Welcome back to Miss Me. I'm very excited to say that this year, is the year that primary schools are going to be teaching budgeting to the young people

of this country. Personal finance budgeting. Primary school? Yeah, so this is primary and secondary schools in England from 2028, yeah. Are you happy about this? Are you taking the piss? I may never have gone bankrupt if I had this lesson. Secondary school I can get, I think that's smart. But there were two wise philosophers who were given mics in 2024 and they said, said that this should happen and their names were lily allen and mckeeter oliver can we hear those profits now i would have liked to have you know gone into some sort of further education i found it really really hard in um secondary school and i just felt like the stuff that they were teaching us was not stuff that was going to apply to me in adult life and um it all just felt like an

absolute waste of time. And then when I did leave school, I felt like quite justified in that assessment because I didn't understand, I didn't really have like any life skills. They should teach you like how to do a load of washing. They should teach you how to do a self-assessment tax form. There is no coincidence. There is no coincidence that there is no education on personal finances in schools. I mean, obviously I went through bankruptcy and it was very, very, very hard and I would never blame

that on no personal finance in schools, but it would have helped. Yeah, I agree. It's great to know that you can make change happen. Thank you very much, government, for listening to us. I agree that it's important to explain to people how to

be financially literate, but I would like it to be to like you know an everyday degree if you take it out of like personal finance budgeting

I'm talking about how to look after yourself in life Jordan I'm talking about if you let's say me who still knows very little

about the ins and outs of what a mortgage means how to acquire it what fucking APR and I mean this shit that I was having

to learn about when I was trying to buy a house this year fucking hell I was so naive and so uncomfortable and so embarrassed

that I know so little and as someone that went bankrupt I have taught myself everything I possibly can about tax and VAT but there's no place to go so if I was learning this stuff if you're just becoming literate in the way to look after yourself

from the age of like seven it's going to change the way people live I swear to fucking God I'm so excited about this yeah I listen I I mean I agree with you in principle people should have no no no seriously

I think to a degree, people should have an understanding of just how the basis of our economy works. I do think that's important. I understand where it comes from. I do. I'm so conflicted because... But it's like, okay, let's say T4. Everyone that I, who was my peer, was a middle class person with parents who knew about buying a house. So when we all made loads of money, everyone bought houses.

I'm not saying that it's all because of that. I was also a dickhead. No, you're completely right. I didn't have the knowledge of where to put loads of money. I didn't know that that's what people did. Because my mum and Garf didn't know that. Because who would have taught them? It's the same as me.

So, yeah. So I think maybe that's more what I mean. It's just like if you learn more, if you know more, you do more. It's just as simple as like, we are always better when we know more. And this is a chance for people to really learn about something that can change the kind of life you have. Yeah. And I agree. Listen, just to be clear, I completely agree with that.

And I was saved by the one member by law in my family who was financially literate. He literally stepped in, him and my cousin stepped in and helped me get a flat when when Rosal Kix was going. And without them, it wouldn't have happened. That's for sure. So I'm with you completely on, you know, going into the crazy world of it. I think what my conflict, what I'm trying to grab is when we talk about wealth inequality, which is a huge issue, right? I'm not sure that answer to wealth inequality is informing more.

people of how to try and aspire towards wealth. The issue for me is that the system as it's set up requires people to be trodden on in order for the people at the top to excel. That is the requirement of it. There is loads, there is a lot of people in life who I adore and I see all the time who aren't actually motivated by money. But the issue is wealth inequality is becoming so much so that they can't even engage in a world that isn't dominated by money for them without being punished for it. That's the issue. So if you're raised by people

who have a communal outlook on life and all they want to do is earn enough money to support their family and be part of their community, which is such a worthy... Like, I can't explain how beautiful that is. Yes, which is just not hardly reaching for the stars.

That is literally just... This is what Zach Balanski was saying in his... I spoke about him with this on his podcast. Zach Polanski, head of the Green Party. You know, he talks about passive income and what people make off of interest in the year Yeah, no, he's like this. He's like, as their head hits the pillow,

as their head hits the pillow, and they sleep soundly, just in one night, they make more money than this town, this street, this entire neighbourhood. And then the music turns and he's like, this is what we're going to do, we're going to fucking tax them. He knows what he wants.

I think that's what I'm trying to, that's the conflict for me is, yes, I understand. More literacy to not get fucked over 100%, but also creating a world where not everybody has to be, like an economist to exist at people like that I do think sorry I do think that it is important but I just I guess I have a memory of of going to this school in Queens Park and I'll speak into some of the boys there and this was what's years ago you know maybe just after COVID I can't

remember or maybe before but I asked them all what they wanted to do there's about 14 boys you know what you aspire to be and like 12 of them said business owners like 12 of the 14 One of them said an actor And the other one said a YouTuber Right At the time It's the kind of the new I want to be famous

Isn't it owning a business You know part of me's like yeah cool I can understand it But for me how I'm hearing that Is I can see the immediate effects Of not having money On the adults around me So I'm going to best believe

I'm going to make money That's the response But that's surely me and you as well Yes for my mum I was very lucky Because I was aware that You know I wanted to get

my mum out of the financial situation, we were in 100%. Like, don't get me wrong. But I was very fortunate to be able to cross that over with something I also enjoyed. Like, I love expressing myself. And it's very fortunate that people found that as like a marketable thing or whatever the fuck. I don't know. But I was, that, you know, that was lucky.

But I did work hard for that. I did a lot of promotion, self-promotion, grinding rejection. I know you did. Like, a lot of that occurred for years. So I can understand how to get there. But I guess I just, I would love to people to be financially literate. so it's not being gate kept by people who then fuck you over

but I don't want that to come at the cost of human beings drive an ambition simply being wanting to just engage with the world and connect to other people. Yes. I do understand this kind of worry about

this hunt for obscene wealth. I do understand that but I also have parents who have been told by society in the world around that they can never be prosperous. And now my mum

is prosperous, but I'm still having a lot of conversations with my mum about the idea that we could be even more prosperous. That's to be prosperous for the kids I may have, for Phoebe's kids, like our family's legacy and also the community around us. I want to do good things with any success I have. No, I think you're right to an extent, you know, because ultimately, you know, if I think if you're empowering young people to understand where and how their money can accumulate, grow, be saved, be saved, you know, pensions, you know, I didn't even, I didn't put one pound into a pension for my entire Rizzle Kicks career because I didn't even know,

I didn't even understand how it works. Actually, now I understand how pensions work. I'm a bit shocked and kind of tripped out by it. Yeah, see, you had to teach yourself though, right? You had to look into it yourself. No, I was able to ask, I was able to ask someone to explain it to me. It's a good time to maybe just talk a little bit about hope then

and, and what? hope might look like, does hope come for you in the shape of Zoran, Mamdani, the new mayor of New York City, of the first ever Muslim mayor of New York City? Does he look like hope to you? That's the question today. Obviously, me and Jordan can't say whether he does or not, because we're impartial. But let's just say if I was a person that thought that he looked like hope, I'd be very excited right now. And I'd be, as Bell Hook said, leaning into the outrageous pursuit of hope. That's cool.

Something different happened. And he's a vibe. My man's got charisma. And the things he's talking about. And he's sports Arsenal. No, he does. He sports Arsenal. What a G?

Is he single? Should I go out with him? He's not single. He's got a very public relationship now. Okay. Which is another part of his appeal. One part of the research I didn't see. She's cool.

She's popped off on Insta now. I bet she fucking has. And they met on Hinge. Oh, stop! I haven't been on hinge. I should have been on hinge, so I'm going to back when I'm darnie. But anyway, but it's just great.

You know, he comes from a place where he has done work in affordability, social housing, poverty. So when he talks about those things now, you don't feel like he was talking about those things and putting them at the front line of his agenda to get into power. He's now in a great position of power, and he's come from a place where he cares about these things that really need fucking looking at at the moment in America.

Yeah. New York City. I like it when people come across of a clear, concise message that is like, I will alter the way things work to be able to put more power to the person who keeps these cities and countries running. That's why it breaks my heart so much

when people get distracted by, we will engage in polarisation and separation and divide. When in reality, there's so much that joins us and the majority of us are joined in unison by the fact that socially we're being crushed by decisions made in the benefit of other people. You know, decisions have been made to benefit the ruling class

for hundreds of years it's got to change it's time for change I love change I'm not scared of it well it's the only as I said I always I'm going to say it

the quote at the front of my book there's only two things promised in life change and death told me by an Uber driver that's right and we ain't dying today

so let's go let's just go with change we're not dying literally we might be dying we're probably dying a little bit every day yeah a little bit let's all be honest

let's not like I've done over a couple of, you know, conversations. That might have been a white lie just to protect everyone's feelings today. But yes, we are all tying a little bit more every day. So let's move on. Five, you want to talk about five, but that was more... Five bad boys with a power to rock you. Can I just say, this isn't just out of nowhere.

I watched the Garland's documentary. I thought it was bloody brilliant. God, it took me back. And Jordan, in our meeting about what to talk about was like, oh, can we talk about five? Five. Go on, name five. I can name five, bro. I named five to get my job in Pop World on Pop World in Pop World.

They said, yeah, they were like, and could you name, I don't know, all the members of Five? And I was like, yes, Sean, Abbs, Jay, Richie, and... Oh, you can't leave one. Scott! Oh, she's nailed it. Don't fuck with me. And don't fuck with me in 2001 pop bands. not fucking me in that.

Yeah, you've nailed it. Yeah, God, 2001 it was, wasn't it? Now, could you name All of All Saints? That's a bit easy. Shazney. Yeah. One of them's like our friend, Jordan.

Ali? Oh, oh, oh. The one is, the one who's... Ali? Sorry, she's married to her... Yeah. Okay, I can't believe you can't remember our friend Mel.

Mel Blat, obviously. Mel? And then you can't remember. yes, Nicole and her sister. I can't believe you would forget Natalie Appleton. It's like she didn't even exist. Unbelievable. It's like she didn't do all that hard work.

She's the one who went out of Robbie, no? No, she's the one that married Liam from the prodigy, you know? Oh, sick. Yeah, man. The Appleton's didn't fuck about when it came to going out with celebrities. Did not fuck about. Oh, their sisters.

Are they in all sense together? I can't believe you're asking me this question like some sort of alien. I'm wondering you up, man. It's so easy to rinse. No, do you know what? I realised when I was when I watched the girl band document, I really do urge people to watch this

if you feel like a jaunt down memory lane. Uncle Cameron was part of two, two of these huge bands that change things. All Saints and Sugar Babes. Go, Uncle Cameron. Yeah, Sugar Babes, what? Oh my God, I'm obsessed of sugar babes. They're such legends.

Now, don't start. There's such legends. But yeah. It's so beautiful. I mean, just watching that early stuff, but children, early sugar babies, you're just like... But early sugar babies is wild because they were literally 14. They were 16, but they were strong enough. No, no, no, no.

Listen, I know because I was living... Mickey, I'm being dead serious. They were 14. You're right, actually. No, I was 16. No, they weren't younger than that. Listen. The sugar babes told women's hour they were 12 and 13 when they got together.

Well, then it must be true. If it's Radio 4, then I'm not disputing it. But what I am disputing is when they released music, which was a few years later. Also, I just got texted I just got a text from Michael McIntyre Oh, okay, we get it You're fancy, we get it His wife listens to the podcast, you know

Kitty, Waguan We see you, we feel you Kitty McIntyre Thank you for loving this to me Thank you for this to it, it really does Yeah, shout out Kitty McIntyre man, legend What life they must have I don't know how Michael McIntyre's got my number

One of the things he does a cent-to-all Which is scandalous Because basically he takes a celebrity's phone They're given a kind of briefing about like what to not what to hide on your phone if you need to but ultimately they go for your fucking phone like and then they essentially write out a text and send it to like a hundred people no and then they and then they put the responses on a big screen i also got done with a sent to a way that shook me to my court to a point maybe like past the point of comfort

because i was on a katherine ryan sent to all right but she her sent to all was her texting people going, hey, just want to let you know, I've put a new piece in my stand-up about when we first met and how weird you were. Hope this, I hope that's okay. I'm happy to give you money to make up for it. McKita. That's such a weird text to receive. I've not spoken to the Catherine Ryan on text.

I see her in person. She's cool. I got this text through in an evening. I was watching telly with Jade and her best mate. I left my body. Makita I thought my actual life was over like if you want me to give you some money

it's like it's that bad I was literally like sat there when did I first meet Catherine Ryan when did I first meet Catherine Ryan I met her when I was 21 or 22 doing sports relief I'm like fuck me what did I do to Catherine Ryan I could have done anything

this is also Catherine she's outspoken we love her because she's a career ender brother she'll come out and be like yo fuck this guy Tuesday and so I was I, yeah, anyway, I basically left my body for four hours and then I got the text being like, aha, it's a joke. And I was like, is that, is that funny? Is that funny? Or did you just put me through something that I didn't need to go through? Because, you know, just because, like, purely

even just my experience as a man, yeah. I was like, have I really dropped the ball here? When I remembered this interaction, like, I started inventing things that happened, never happened. Like, just for clarity, I was never weird of Catherine Wright. That's kind of like what you were saying earlier though, isn't it about like if someone says you did something weird, then everything else. Everything you think, anyway. Everything you think is now you is a creepy fucker who could have done anything.

That's why you need to watch this documentary because it kind of reminds you, yes, you are reminded of the viciousness like Perry is in it because obviously Little Mix. I think they're the second biggest girl band after the Spice Girls. I'm sure you know that, but it was great to hear. 100% there are what you're talking about. Great to fucking hear.

I was like, go on. And Perry talks a lot about the vicious That's why it's quite interesting because she's the episode three where the internet arrives and when you're in the early days there's different dangers you know, for eternal.

It's more like social media. Yeah, sorry, yeah. Yeah, trolls. Yeah, trolls. There's an old video clip of me being asked to name all of Little Mix when I was when I was younger.

At 23, being asked to name all of Little Mix. Did you get them right? And I'm talking, this is peak drugs. Like I can't, I was, I had a hoodie over my head this is in a PR interview

with the zip pulled down so it's like scrunched like Kenny from South Park and I go like Perry and then I watched it back going please say Jade please say Jade and then I say Jade

oh thank for that fortunately there's the only two I say but I loved by the way I'm a big that was an unfortunate that was very early doors I'm actually a massive Little Mix fan I know you are Name blue.

I can name fucking blue. I could tell you their parents' names. No, you couldn't. Tell me Simon Webb's mom's name now. And then we're in the podcast. You know what? I'm going to get it up. And then if you get...

Mrs. Webb. Mrs. Webb. No, okay. I think Lee's mom's called Sandra. And, sorry, Lee... Oh, my God. No, we have to talk about this. You don't know about Blue.

You don't know what Blue stopped. Oh, my God. What do you mean? Why Blue stopped? Because you find out why Mystique. stopped in the girls'bound documentary. It's unbelievable. Their record company go bankrupt while they're at the height of their powers and then they can't get another record deal. What happened to Blue?

Sorry, I'm just trying to find that I'm Simon's mom's name. Okay, yeah, that's more important. Blue went to America. They were huge. They were here. They were dominated here. They went to go over to America. They were going to be the biggest thing in America. They're about to do a nationwide tour, right? 9-11 happened. They asked them in an interview. I think it was a question. Like the subsequent conversations around, you know the state of the world oh that's good i think lee interrupts hold on he's to love lee from

blue i used to have a serious really quite serious serious crush on him i used to shake when blue came in because i was so nervous because i fancied lee so much yeah yeah i get i get it essex boy do you okay here we go okay so so they're talking about the the subsequent conversations leading from 9-11 and ryan is who you're right here lee ryan who gives a fuck about New York when elephants are being killed. Oh my God, I remember this. Then they intervene. This is what even funnier is the other bandmates try and

stop him. And he goes, no. They are ignoring animals that are more important. Animals need saving and that's more important. This New York thing is being blown out of all proportion. No. This New York thing is great. This is the world before social media and internet. They were working with CV Wonder.

It was on. It was on Fuck this Hang on Hang on Let's give Lee a break Because not only did I have Really serious crush on him

In the Pop World Days We played football And the celebrity soccer match together It was hot But he did apologise For what he said at the time And he donated to the Twin Towers Fund So there you go Jordan

I know And that Ladies and gentlemen That is how you kill a boy band No joke If you go Because this is sort of what happened to Mystique If you go to America

And for some reason whether it be leaving a dicket or this record company thing with Mystique and then you come back and it didn't go well it's kind of hard to still be shiny over here it fucks you it does fuck you've seen that happen many times at the time but I have to say though as just to add on to it like they obviously did have an effect

on all of them like I don't want to say that and just laugh at it because obviously that came at quite a price and I think Lee had a lot of issues after it he was very young too Lee was incredibly young yeah he was like 22 at the height of their power what amazing voice if you come back him I'm alive. Should we actually end?

Maybe till the end of time. Back to me. Back to me. I swear. Right. I got a go. I got shit to do today. You best believe.

Well, it's been a pleasant morning. See you later. What's that a quote from? That's the last line of entertaining Mr. Sloan. Deep. We'll end it there. A chapter. Complete.

We will, of course, see each. other on Monday. I mean, we might talk before then. We like to talk when we're not doing Miss Me. Okay, we actually are friends. But we probably will. They probably will be listening to Mitch. We'll be talking about the Great British Sunday Roast. I'm sorry if you think that that's not a place that gets deep, but I believe it can. So we'll see you then. Thanks for listening to Miss Me. This is a Perse of Onica production for BBC Sounds. Hello, I'm Amul Rajin, and from BBC Radio 4, this is radical. We are living through one of those hinge moments in history

when all the old certainties crumble and a new world struggles to be born. So the idea behind this podcast is to help you navigate it. What's really changed is the volume of information. That has exploded. And also by offering a safe space for the radical ideas that our future demands. Go to the Charter and say radically cut the taxes of those with children. Telling our stories is powerful and a radical act. Listen to Radical with Amal Rajan on BBC Sounds.