Miss Me? - The Great Forgetting

Episode Date: July 16, 2026

An apology to Fearne Cotton from Miquita and a reassessing of Ali G from Jordan and some love all round for Jude Bellingham. Producer: Natalie JamiesonTechnical Producer: Oliver Geraghty Assistant Producer: Caillin McDaid Video Editor: Danny PapeProduction Coordinator: Tom JacksonExecutive Producers: Ellie Clifford & Dino SofosMiss Me? is a Persephonica show Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Imagine being Drew Belling him this last week. Jesus. He's 23 years old and he has just matched Pellé. Oh my God. For the most goals scored in a World Cup for a player 23 or under. God, we should be so proud of him. So you listed three failures to Elizabeth Day and not one of them was working at BBC Radio 1. And being fired.

No, actually. I did see something at Wimbledon that upset me. Ali G. What, Sasha Baron Coe? Yes, he's making another Ali G film. Shut up. Yes. She made me feel like I wasn't in the right job, like I shouldn't be there.

It wasn't her fault. It was just I was told by the press that I wasn't right and she was right. And I didn't mean to be awful to her and I think that makes you turn on each other. Yeah, it's horrible. Come to the world of Miss Me. Hello everyone. Jordan, hello you. Hello me.

Hello world. Hello, Kitty. How's everyone doing? Yeah, just getting through life. Things are great. Couldn't be better. I've got a new chair. Hey, that's exciting. You told me to get a chair because Miss Me is known for chairs

and then I instantly realised that your chair's like very mediocre. You just have a white chair. Right. Let's bring it back and really get into this. Now, this chair is not just like, oh, I want a chair. This represents me, right? It's a bit officey. It spins, which I love because I'm a bit of a spinner. Gesticulati.

I'm a bit of spinner. And for me, it looks like a kind of like something that like maybe Ralph Lauren would have in his office. Sure. Now, Lily is funnier than me. Yeah. Always with her interiors and stuff. So she had that zebra chair. She had a zebra chair.

And it really does become your sort of background, as it were. Your sort of backbone. This is my zebra chair. This is your zebra chair. So why have you gone for the dual tones of the emerald velvet chair? I wouldn't say emerald deeper than that. It's like a deep teal. I love it.

I love it. I'm going to find out what teal means. I bet it means something. Where the word teal comes from? No, like what? A lot of colours have like meaning. Oh, meaning. Oh, this is where I'm at.

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, go on. Are you ready? Are you ready? Yeah, yeah, I'm ready. Healing and clarity. There we go. That's all I need. Because it combines the calming properties of blue

with the renewing qualities of green. Shit, that is your chair. Yeah, but it's a deep teal. So it's deep healing. It feels like normal tears a little bit lighter, but anyway, yeah, so here I am. How are you? Yeah, I'm good. I was thinking about you this weekend because we have Phoebe's, our favorite witch,

our favorite spiritual guide, our favorite cousin, her 42nd birthday on the Heath, where she likes to have her most of her birthdays on Hampstead Heath. And yeah, we were all there. Sorry. Wondering where the fuck you were, man. I forgot. Right. Honestly, it's so bad.

She messaged me. Yeah, she did. Like the week before and I am really, really, I hold my hands up, no excuses, no nothing I would have loved to be there. I love Phoebe. I think she's brilliant. And I, to be fair, instead I spent some time with my friend's kids, which was really sweet in Margate. And I really enjoyed that. But so, yeah, so I did actually end up having a nice day anyway. But yeah, it wasn't out of a desire to not go. I simply didn't put it in my diary because I'm a mess like that. That's literally why I have people help me do that. I know. You said to me up day and I do agree that you sort of need about a,

you sort of need a 24 hour reminder. Not just specifically me. Like, I can't say there's an app that does this. And I won't say it because they should pay us. But like there is an app where you can put your event in. And then it will remind people for you. Remind people for you. Oh, right.

So you say I'm having a birthday picnic. So you can RSVP with an app, yeah. And you click, yeah, I'm going. And then it will text you going, don't forget, tomorrow. I'll be like, oh, sweet. No, go on, what's the app called? No, they got to pay me. Oh my God.

You're a corporate whore now that we've left the BBC. Yeah, no, I'm a corporately aware. Thank you very much. You've got to be careful, man. That's true. Listen, honestly, it's one of the things. You know, you've got to be careful what you put your mouth in your face to. Yeah, give me that money, bitch.

Listen, we have to play this freaking game. I wish the game was different. I really do. I try to prove, it's difficult to prove that I feel this way, but I wish the game was different. but it's not. And the unfortunate reality of this game is you have to play it a little bit, otherwise it just literally stomps you into the ground. So playing the game to you is not even speaking the name of things until they pay you to say their names. Playing the game is having an

understanding that there is, I have worked hard to accumulate value in my backing of things. Fuck, that's a really powerful thing to say about yourself. I have gone through periods of time where I've really needed money and I've done I've been looser with my collaborations which by the way I do not judge anyone for by the way like I really don't judge anybody for doing adverts for doing collapse or doing posts whatever people need to fucking survive in this economy we're about to do a lot so you should say that no seriously um but like you know when I'm in a position where I can hold my own slightly more I've turned down a lot of money recently good for you I could because I just can't get my head around do it working with certain brands no but I god you know this is

is why I miss the innocent days of voiceovers. Yeah, that's the dream. That's the dream. Did you see Grimmie got the EE one? I was like, fuck you. Oh, he's sorted. But I've turned down voiceovers too. I turned down a voiceover for the army.

Oh, well, fair enough. Yeah. Fair enough. And then on Saturday, do you know what? Garfield's done this really cool thing. He's, well, I mean, I'm not sure the neighbours feel the same way, but he's got a projector in the garden for the games. And it is kind of beautiful to be able to sit in mum's garden with everyone and watch the game.

Yeah, that's gorgeous. It was gorgeous. and we're talking about the England-Norway game and just, I mean, fucking imagine being Drew Bellingham this last week. Jesus Christ, Andy P. I mean, he was on the cover of every single newspaper. And, I mean, it's a young black hero. It's just beautiful.

It is. I thought that was the most lovely... From Brum. Is that where he's from Brum? I think so. Imagine being Jude Bellingham's mum. You'd be so proud of him. He's got a brother.

Job. Job and Jude. Bellingham and they're both footballers quite intense. Yeah, they're smashing it mate. Yeah, man, what a family. So it was quite an intense weekend well, an intense Saturday. So on Sunday I literally read all day

and look at this that I read. I love this. There's this guy Jordan called Robert McFarlane and he's a nature writer and I know about him because he did this brilliant album with a friend of mine called Johnny Flynn and they made like an album, what was it called? Johnny Flynn

is a fucking genius. What the hell? called Lost in the Cedarwood. And listen to what this album draws inspiration from, the ancient Mesopotamian epic of Gilgamesh. That's my kind of shit. So he's now written a book called The Book of Birds. Sorry. What has this got to do of Jude Bellingham?

Nothing. I'm talking about reading all Sunday and I stumbled upon this beautiful. Can I say now, right? I am asking the producer to not edit that. I need that to be. I need that. McKee's a stream of consciousness.

That was honestly, unless, it might be me. We'll let the listeners decide. I, I, I don't know how we got from Jude Bellingham to birds. We went from football. Don't test me. Oh, that was it. All you were going to say is imagine being Jude's mom. Anyway.

Anyway, on Sunday I read all day. I thought we're going to, okay, I thought we're going to comment. I mean, you know Jude's like 21 or something or 22 years old? Is he that young? Yes. And he's the king of England. He's 23. He's 23 years old.

and he has just matched Pellé. Oh, my God. For the most goals scored in a World Cup for a player 23 or under. Right, right, right, right, right. God, we should be so proud of him. It is honestly beyond comprehension. 23 is ridiculous.

I'm sorry. That's mental. But it is that incredible thing we talked about, Jordan, where it's like football has this incredible way of being the most racist place in the world and also the most unifying place. Well, you know what I'll say about this before we get onto the birds, yeah. Okay.

Is that I also think it's really important to balance the, you know, the exposing reality that football brings, right? That people, like, for example, we saw a video of, like, I Show Speed was watching the Argentina-Egypt game and the Argentinian fans were being unbelievably racist, right? Like, it happens all the time, Italian football, Spanish football. But I will say that what happened after the game was very interesting, just to catch you up very quickly. So there was an incident that occurred with a... a commentator, I think he's called Gabriel Clark. He interviewed Thomas Tuchel

after the Norway game and Thomas Tuchel being the type of manager that he is, he said we weren't that good, but I'm glad we won. That's me paraphrasing it, right? It was along those lines. No, I think that's quite a fair comment. The most notable thing was he was saying, yeah, it's good, but it wasn't good enough, right?

He, I think it's Gabriel Clark. I might be getting this wrong. He then goes to Jude, who's obviously had one of the greatest matches for his personal, and he said, Thomas Suckel has just said, you guys didn't play that well, what do you think?

Right? And Jude basically said, whatever. Now, what's so fucked up about that is why are you trying to create any kind of friction between the manager

and the current star player? Because all that would lead to, consequently, right, if this became the headlines, was if we were to lose to Argentina, people would then just turn on Jude and say that he was the one, right.

But, the win from this is, it's the callers, right? And I'm assuming a lot of these white Brits too, it's not in any way like a racial thing, instantly push back against it. The pushback I heard on talk radio and on YouTube from football fans of all races in England were like, no, this is a disgrace.

Like they actually backed him, you know? So it was interesting to see a space where there'd been almost like a preemptive strike for what would become maybe something like racially motivated. But it was definitely not just like black people saying that. It was a lot of white Brits walk calling in and being like, this is a disgrace. Why are you trying to do that? You got to encourage these players.

I've absolutely not to mention we've seen this happen before and go unbelievably badly. And when I say that, I'm talking about Hoddle and his flippant comment about Beckham, which then in turn made Beckham literally a figure of hate and violence for over three years. Be fucking careful. It was wild what he went through. It was actually inhumane what he went through. I still think we're capable of that behaviour. Well, yeah, football makes people nuts, mate.

Yeah, man. I agree. Sorry, anyway, birds. What a World Cup, though. Apparently people, my mum and Garfield were having a argument. And I was like, this is very world cupy. She was like, you've been staying up for all the games, and you've been getting drunk every night, sorry, every game.

And you're grumpy all day until the fucking games on, and then you're grumpy all day, and I've got to deal with it. And I was like, mm, I bet this is happening all around the country. No, that's not. good. Because that football scheduling. Why is Garth

being so grumpy in a day? Because he's drinking every game, watching every game and then he's hung over. I hate that. I know.

Not fair. Sort it out, Garth. Have a couple litres before you go to sleep. Jesus Christ. Clean yourself out. Clean yourself out. Jesus.

No, not football. Post football grumps is not acceptable. Everyone sort your fucking lives out. This mixture of the heat wave and the World Cup I think has been quite detrimental for a lot of couples. I was speaking to Elizabeth Day

because I finally did how to fail. Oh, wicked. Oh, well, that's a huge podcast, Keats. Yeah, God. It's hard just sitting there talking about your failures. I thought I did that on Missy, but no. Oh my God, did you talk about BBC? How's the BBC a failure? That's what your trauma was, no?

They got fired, no? I'm so confused. I'm actually saving that for today when we talk about phone cotton. Oh. Sorry, so you did, so you listed three failures to Elizabeth Day and not one of them was working at BBC Radio 1. I'm being quiet. Are you being serious?

I can't tell if you being serious or not. No, no, I had loads of others. Bankruptcy, alcoholism and theory tests. Thank you very much. I was, don't worry. My cup was fulleth of failure. Yeah. What was Elizabeth saying?

She was just saying her and her husband have got these very different temperatures when they sleep and the heat wave has fucked them. And she now has these e-blankets in like, He has his turned down because he sleeps cold and she sleeps hot, whatever. She was like, it's saving our relationship. It's been a heady summer. It's been a heady summer, World Cup. So maybe that's why when I stumbled across this lovely, gentle article about Skylarks, I was ready.

I was really ready. But listen to this. Listen to what he says. He says bird watching is huge right now. Oh, okay. After millions of years, bird watching is finally huge. But Channel 5 draws inspiration from Gone Fishing, which is Bob Mortimer and... Paul White House.

Paul White House. What a show. One of my favourite shows on television. It's original, which is why I loved it. Of course, every other channel is going to try and bite it. What do you mean it's original? This idea of two men fishing and talking about health and life and politics and love and sex. I thought it was a really beautiful combination for a TV show.

And now everyone's trying to nick it. I'm confused, though. Wasn't they the one with Steve Coogan and Rob Bryden, that's it. And they just go. No, that's brilliant. That's called The Dish. No, it's called The Tour, isn't it? The Tour?

The Trip. The Trip. That is brilliant. But isn't that the same concept? No, because that's sort of scripted. They're playing characters. Like, they're playing versions of themselves. Like, they have different partners.

Look, I just, I'm not sure. I'm not sure if you can own the concept of filming yourself fishing. I mean, like, that's most podcasts. What it is is it's the tool of bringing two middle-aged men together to talk honestly about life. Yeah. This idea of using the tool of fishing, now they're trying anything. So they did Bill Bailey and someone else on Channel 4 and they were doing walking, I think, or biking, cycling. Yeah.

And they've also now got Sam and Aid go birding. Yeah. On Channel 5, Samuel West and Adrian Evanston discussing life, health and family. I don't know who either those people are. What? Samuel West is. Timothy West's son. He's an actor. I don't know who Timothy West is. Huge actor. And Aide Evanson is from The Young Ones and Bottom. The Young Ones, I remember that. The Little Punk,

the punk band that live in a flat. They wish. Oh yeah, fake punk bands. No, they're just students that are a bit punky. Oh yeah, shit. So they're all just like Yooves in a... Do you know what? It's funny. You said that, though, because the punk band that appear on the Young Ones, Episode 5 or something, is my mum's band, Rit Rig and Panic. Wow. That's really cool. Yeah, it's been following her up for years that clip. But anyway, excuse me, listen to this. Yeah. In the past 50 years, Britain has lost 73 million birds.

Across Europe, the number is 500 million. What do you mean they've lost them? Well, we've just... Oh, because it's got too hot, so they just fucked off somewhere else. He said, a great listen to this, because he's written this book called The Book of Birds, and it's about the crisis of collapsing bird populations. And he says, an ancient... No, a great thinning of the skies is underway.

Dawn and springs are quieter, the air emptier, and ancient avian orchestra is falling silent. Oh, God, ancient avian orchestra is a gorgeous phrase. Should we call the episode that? It's delicious. Who wrote that? This is Robert MacFarlane. You'll love his writing.

I like this guy. Yeah, he's amazing. And then he says he's written this book, which I love, to be an antidote to the Great Forgetting. Okay, the Great Forgetting has just ruined my year. Like that as a phrase Has ruined my fucking year They just make you want to cry for every skylock

No but it's not going to happen by the way It's impossible Is it impossible? I was wondering Is it impossible to lose all birds It's possible for us It's possible for us in these metro poles To forget That's the sad thing

Yeah well what he says is that's sorry darling To interrupt you what he says he's written the book of birds I'm going to buy it I'll buy it for you know I'm going to send it to you I used to bird watch I want to bird watch When I was on my, I lived on the top floor of my estate as a kid, had a reader's digest, bird book.

There was about four different types of birds, I'll be real. It was like a pigeon, be a robin in the winter, blue tit. The occasional crow? Oh, yeah. Crows, we get the three, don't you? You get crow, raven and a rook? Magpie. No, rook.

We get magpies too, love magpies. One for sorrow, two for joy, three for a girl, four for a boy, five for silver, six for a gold, seven for a story, never to be told. If we ever see a magpie, Phoebe's like, hello, Mr Magpie, say hello to your friends and family. I salute them. Yes, I salute them every time. Yeah. What is the salute? Hello, Mr. Magpie, I salute you. I just do that, I just go, yeah.

Someone says housewife and kids, which is very trippy. That's what Phoebe says. It's like, what the fuck? What are you talking about? So he has this idea that if we, by his book, no, but if we learn more about bird species, then this greater understanding of the breadth, the breadth, and plethora of species will innately make us look after what we have more. That's his theory.

Yeah, I mean, every answer to life is in nature. I agree. That's where I want to spend the next week. Yeah, I think maybe get back to bird watching. I'll join you. Well, Guyana, where my black heritage is from, huge bird watching spot. In fact, I think it would, I think just mentioning Guyana would be a song in itself to this wonderful writer. There is literally like a huge plethora of species.

It was fucking overwhelming, actually, how many different birds you could see up in the canopies. It was really cool. And then obviously, I'm not going to list them again because I've done it on here about five times, but they do have very funny names. Our directors just ask us if we use the Merlin Bird app. No, but I'm interested.

And I won't say them again until they pay us. Is that how you do? Pay me to talk about brown boobies. No, no, no. what I think is we should have Robert McFarlane on Miss Me. Okay. Let's talk to him about birds. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Patreon, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's not very democratic. Like, let's learn about birds, but you have to pay. No, but this is, okay, sorry, let me not sit on this for too long, right? But this is the huge conflict that we're in in life, right? Because we're being pushed because of the nature of the economy into a space where we have to value our own contributions. and I don't think that's out of order for a summary self-employed.

I really don't. I mean, it's hard to do things for free. And also, it's not even necessarily us that they're paying for. It's this man who has a gift. And he was paid for that article. And he was paid for that book. And you've got to buy that book. That's very true.

Okay, Robin McFarlane. Let's get in touch. Also, can I just say, all these social media apps are charging us anyway. You've seen this now. They're going, now you've got to pay for WhatsApp. You've got to pay. Yeah, they're asking, no, sorry, if you want to upgrade your WhatsApp, you've got to pay. Wow.

that's interesting. They're all sort of segueing into pho- yes, they're bringing in subscription models. Everyone's doing it. So it's like, you know, the fact that we'd turn around it, oh, we couldn't possibly. We need it more than them. Anyway, what's next? Oh, fuck me. Let's get out of this. God, it's a really busy weekend, actually. I went to Wimbledon with mum. You went to witness a sinner? I did see the sinner game with Djokovic. I didn't find that as interesting as the Arthur Ferry game. And I think the reason the Arthur Ferry game was...

Arthur Ferry is just not a real name, though, is it? It is. It's such a young tennis player from Wimbledon's name. Of course he's called Arthur F-R-E-R-Y. Arthur F-A-R-Y. Like, F-E-R-Y. No, F-E-R-Y. And this boy only got into the top 200, I think last year or something, and he was a wild card, right? Motherfucker, it was, we didn't know his name. Love wild cards. It's such a great thing. This is why I love sport. These beautiful things can only happen in sports. Some young boy can be playing tennis. They shouldn't, though. What do you mean? They shouldn't only happen in sport. No, completely. You should wild card all over the place.

I want a wild card prime minister. Get ready. I want a wild card presenter of the Brits. Oh, wouldn't that be interesting? I think the whole of life should mirror tennis, okay? The whole of life. Not only everything, everything. The way people play tennis is the way you should play your life, right?

That's why Woody Allen wrote the film Match Point. And that film is about the fact that Jonathan Reese Myers commits gets himself into a very rich family, commits a murder and gets away with it on the, how do you say, like the roll of a dice, on the turn of a dime. Where do you reckon Woody Allen sourced that from that inspiration? You're so right. You watch all Woody Allen films now. You're like, oh, that terrible bastard that gets away with anything he wants.

We call them breadcrumbs, yeah. Yeah, yeah, sure. Or hiding in plain sight or motherfucker just telling us who he is from day. But anyway. Yeah. So as a person that may have or may have not done terrible things in his life, he writes about how to get away with them very well. But this idea in Matchpoint is like the game of tennis,

like this point in Match Point is nuts. You can be up and then you're down and then you're up and then you win. Or you can be up, then you're down, and then you lose. It's the fact that you can be at a point and then be brought backwards. There's not many other games where you can be brought backwards. Right. That's what it is. it's the backwards.

Yeah, yeah. It's so insane. And it creates the most incredible jeopardy. And this is why tennis is the most glorious game to watch. That's why I was there. That's why Nicole Kidman was there. That's why all the stars were there. It's actually a bit overwhelming how many famous people are at Wimbledon.

There is a version of that in football. Going back? Yeah, there's like, I mean, it's very specific. But if you're playing the Champions League, for example, you have a home and an away leg. So you have two games and you have to win over the two games. And so historically, there have been some, unbelievable comebacks. Like, I think Real Madrid at one point were down three nil on aggregate and then played the next leg and won and managed to win four, three overall or something

like that. I don't know, maybe I've got that wrong. But like you can basically come back from the brink of defeat in the second leg. Yeah. So you say this is, so actually this isn't just tennis, this is across other sports. It can be. That's just what came to mind. I don't know all those sports. But really, we should be thinking about our lives like this. Yeah. Because you can be down. You can be down and then you take that advantage back. Do you know what I mean? that's it. So anytime anyone's feeling low, I swear, watch a game of tennis. Just shows you how to live. But Arthur Ferry's story was beautiful because he was playing number two in the world. Arthur Vary is on centre court for the semi-finals.

That's insane. That's insane. Babe, the whole place is like, Arthur, you can do it, Arthur. Yeah, of course. It's a true underdog story. Everyone loves an underdog. Beautiful. Everyone loves an underdog. Me and mom were like, come on, Arthur. Eventually Arthur did lose said game, but it was, he should be so proud of himself. He should be so proud of himself. He held his own.

He played beautiful tennis. Yeah. And what they were saying is, because they always named the Hill after like the winners. So we've got, it was called Murray Mound. Yeah. And it was called Henman Hill. And they were calling it Arthur's seat. Oh my God.

Tim Henman. That guy was so boring. No, no. Mom went to a lunch with him and he's a total laugh. That's what mom said. Okay. She's like, he's actually her weird friend. Oh, wait.

Was it Andy Murray who, he tries to be boring? I love Andy Murray so much. He's a legend. He's a cool about, but he can be a little somber. I just don't think he cares about the stuff. I think that's cool, though. It just doesn't care about being a character. He just wants to play tennis and do good.

Yeah, man. Oh, Wimbledon. Wait, can I say one thing about Wimbledon? Yeah. I did see something at Wimbledon that upset me. What was it, Jordan? What was it? Ali G.

No. Yeah. Don't call him that. What do you mean? Well. He was dressed as Ali G. No, what, Sasha Baron Cohen? Yes, he's making another Ali G film.

Shut up. Yes. Oh my God. But listen, can I say this, right? And I really mean this when I say this. To you listeners, shout out the missing you listeners, yeah. I think, let this film, let this Ali G, new Ali G film be a real marking or a real indication of how far our conversation has moved.

Not necessarily the actions, but how far that our conversation has moved in 20 years. Because. Let's talk about who our conversation has moved. Holly G was, what he's representing. Well, listen, I was, so I was at Willsdon Sports Center. I was playing football when they were filming one of the scenes, right? Like back for the first film, Staines Massive, I remember people saying,

are they filming this, they're shooting this film around the corner. And, you know, at the time, just plain funny because, like, dumb things are funny. And also we, at that point, normalized, like, casual racism, casual sexism, like, that was just normal. It was on telly that wasn't, no one even battered the island. It was the 90s. It was the 90s.

It was the naughties. Yeah, yeah. Well, actually, sorry, no, you're right. Friday night show. No, no, you're right. You're right. Sorry. Late 90s, early noughties, yeah.

Because I must have been like eight, actually. So you're right. So, no, that would have been the millennium. But anyway, I, like, at the time, big fan, used to run around saying, boy, okay, Shah, you know, stains massive. Obviously, shout out Martin Freeman. Loll, that was Martin Freeman.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, but now over time, I have deduced that. I think Sash Brian Kern is a fucking asshole. And I think it's, I think, the fact that he's doing another Ali G film for me signifies one that he's fucking scrambling because that's usually what people do when they panic is they go back to what was you know like most successful you know you I could I could give benefit of the doubt and go well maybe there's a really cool innovative new idea or this is coming in at a particular point

I think it's going to be a flaming car crash because do you think they'll lean into the same shit the comedy that Ali G was based upon he claims was young Jewish boys in his area emulating rap culture. That's what he says. Yeah. So I know him through Dan Schweimer, who was one of our first pop world producers, one of the best producers of all time. And they all grew up as young Jewish boys. Yeah. Yeah. I've worked with Dan before. And Dan does listen to miss me. I like Dan. Dan's the best. But he said the same. He said that they grew up in the same street, I think, in Manchester. And that they're, you know, that was his version of emulating the young rude boys they saw in the area.

Yeah, so my query is this. I find it odd that that was the beginning point, right? So he's claiming that he was not ridiculing black culture. He was ridiculing a Jewish version of black culture. I haven't seen enough of this culture that he's ridiculing, right? So the Jewish boy is emulating the black culture. I just haven't seen these people in any space or occupying any form of visibility over the last 20 years. So how he's going to go back into that

and not just seem like he's taking the mimic out of black culture is beyond me. And then past that point, he's ridiculed Kazakhstan culture, gay culture. The last one he did was kind of like American culture, which was probably the most balanced thing he's done. But what I now feel in hindsight, looking back at the Great Dictator,

need I say any more about that way now, anyway, I just find it interesting that he palmed away critics on the basis that he was ridiculing a culture he understood and yet the entirety of his career, I have not seen him take the Mick out of any culture that he is actually a part of. Yeah, that's a really good point.

For me, right, and I'm going to be clear. I don't think anybody's above critique. I don't think anybody's above roasting. I don't think anybody's above getting the piss taken out of them. Every culture should get it. But what I find funny and what I love from comedians is when they know enough about the culture to make an intelligent joke.

When they just lean on stereotypes or gimmicks, it's for me, that's just low, it's just like a low bar, and I just don't find it interesting. I'm not upset that people are getting ridiculed. I'm upset that you're too, like, you're, you're just not even trying hard. No, it's lazy. Yeah, it's lazy. That's exactly it. It's lazy.

And so, yeah, I find it interesting that if you're going to ridicule a culture, you're probably best equipped to ridicule the culture you are directly from, and I've actually never seen him do that. Yeah. Why? It's sad because he seems to be uncancelable. Now that you've just sort of gone through the roll call of his work, I'm like, fucking hell, wow.

Because he's always exposing people's response to it, right? So he can hide behind, he can hide behind the fact that like it's almost a social experiment. This is why I liked him for a long time. I was like, wow, he's so cool and radical. And you can go into these crazy environments as a, as Ali G or as Brin or whatever. And he can just withstand this pressure and this tension. Like, you know, we've never really had anyone else do that before, not with these caricatures, right? So that was what's so enticing about it.

But over time, and with the unveiling of new information, let's say, Rebel Wilson's memoir or, like, other things I've seen on the internet from his mouth, it's just like transpired. It's like maybe you're actually just bad faith. Well, good luck to him and all of his politically incorrect endeavours. Yeah. We're going to go to a break now just before we offend any seriously deep allergy fans. Staines massive. Wicked wiki. Yeah, in it, in it.

All right, so on the weekend, I was at Happy Place. Was it a happy place? Yes, it is. It's a nice vibe. I was speaking with my friend and mentor and elder, Donna Lancaster, who I, you know, continue to shout out about. She's very much the woman behind many of my outlooks on the inner world of people. She calls it inner activism.

That's good. The inner world of people. Yeah. Did you, have you met my friend Seb, Sebastian? Yeah, of course. His boyfriend, Hassan, said to me the other day at the pub, oh, you know Donna Lancaster is also my mentor. Maybe.

I didn't know that she was... Who's Hassan? Who's husband? Oh. Well, that's what I'm saying. Does she only do people in the public eye? I don't know who Hassan is. Who you talking about?

He's not in the public eye. He's Sebastian's boyfriend. So obviously she doesn't. I know, but you're going, who's Hassan? So it's like, oh, is that strange that she's his mentor as well? No, not too. she's a therapist like she she you know she but how do all you people keep getting to her i have not i don't i don't i did you don't know who hasan is you're just telling me his name so i don't know what the

context is in which she would have met her but like yeah she's accessible you know you can literally go to her workshops i didn't know she can buy her books you can follow her substack like she's she's present you know she i think she actually gets there's some restrictions to her career because i think some some parts of our world are a bit agist and and very fancy and starry and she you know she's like deeper than that without being rude to other people. You know, she's... Good. I'm really, I'm really pleased that she's in your life. She's a G. And she deserves more attention. That's why I like try and tell as many people about her because, like, it's not even like, she just helped me. Like, she literally just is, she just has a lot

of information. She's a very sensitive and wise woman and I think she would help a lot of human beings, you know? So you were doing the talk with her at, this is Fern Cotton's festival. She loves Fern and her very close. Like, Fern equally has been guided by Donna before. Like, um, and, yeah, that we were there talking they gave us the stage to ourselves this year rather than last year we were interviewed then we were just kind of leading a workshop almost ourselves about the story of relationships which was really cool the story of relationships yeah what does that mean we were just going through the six stages of relationships basically what are they and what they mean well i couldn't possibly with it i go through it was a it was a whole 45 minute talk but

but could you just tell me the stages okay the first what the first first stage is um where we we met with our childhood experiences, right? So like we often attract people romantically into our lives that are emulating on some level a relationship we had with one or both of our parents. And so that often happens at an unconscious level. So that's the first stage. The second stage is the honeymoon stage or whatever other, what name we have for it, where our brain is literally flooded with a chemical that gives us this bizarre

laser vision which makes us overlook all red flags. And then also... Love that stage. And also leads us into believing this person is going to, like, there's no way this person is ever not going to be in our lives forever and ever. And then literally the chemical runs out, you know, if you decide to like move in with each other straight away and just are inseparable for three months, it will run out after three months.

If you're a long distance, it can last up to two years. But eventually it drops off. And then you're left with the power struggle. And the power struggle is you're dealing with the actual person or the parts of the person that you overlooked in the first period. and then that's the reality and then you have to ask yourself can I be with this person

now I know the more difficult parts of them if you choose yes then you end up into the growth stage this is like more this is awareness this is now we're in a conscious phase of being in a relationship if you have awareness of the fact that this person is triggering you

not necessarily just because of who they are but because of who they remind you of then you can work on that individually and not punish them for it and then from awareness you go to growth growth is the understanding of these issues and growing into them, you're using the relationship to help you heal.

And then if you're really lucky, the growth stage maintains for as long as possible and you end up at a point called passionate friendship, which is where you've basically partnered somebody for so long that you, in some cases, just get like a very, very constant supply of oxytocin because they're like just around you all the time. I want it! It sounds so great.

One point we made is like, yes, the romantic relationships often trigger our familial wound, which is why people say, I feel like I've known you forever. It's like you haven't. You just, they remind you of your mom or your dad. No, no, no, no. I disagree. I think some people feel like home. Yeah, they do.

That's my point. And they have nothing to it. But they don't remind you of your parents. Yeah, I don't agree. I think it's a, of course, you know, it's like a different home. It's like a home inside. So familiar. You say it feels familiar?

I'm not doing this. Is that what you'd say? I'm not doing this. No, I'm saying. Would you say it feels familiar? familiar? We're in very different ways. I'm just asking, is that what it is? You said you, it feels familiar? That giddy feeling of home. Does it feel familiar? Yes. You know where I'm going with this? It does, but it's not my fucking mum. What do you mean? Like,

you're saying, it reminds you of your mum or your dad. It's not. It reminds you of a feeling that you had in your body as a child. And it's something that you often haven't healed. And the reason I'm saying this is because, and this is another, we can't go off on the whole. tangent about this for the whole episode. No, you've already done to talk about it. Sorry, but can I just say, no, no, I'd love to. I love this stuff. I find it fascinating.

The interesting thing is not all love is hits that honeymoon phase with that intensity. You'll meet, you'll meet partners who maybe have been friends for a long time or, I don't know what, and they just meet each other and it's just quiet. It doesn't have to be a well wind. It doesn't have to be intense, lust-driven, like hurricane up and down, let's go on holiday. It doesn't have to be that. But also I remember in my 20s, I had a friend who lived with me for a bit

and she would always have these relationships with so much like fighting and they would like smash plates and all this shit and I knew that she totally thought it was because they had a passionate relationship. I was like, this is not fucking passion. Yeah. This is total unnecessary drama.

Yeah. So I think you have to really like, you know, there are things you can mistake for other things. I feel with some people I met like friends, I'd be like, wow. I feel so connected to you so quickly. We must have known each other in a past life or some shit. Like, I'm down for that.

That's what I mean. Like, when I met Tall Phoebe, I wasn't like, you remind me of Labrott Grove or my mom or my dad. She just felt like home. Like I'd always known her. And she's never not, she's felt like that from the minute I met her in that weird club. Yeah. Okay. Fair enough.

But that's what we were talking about. Nice. With your favourite, Fern Cotton. Yeah. Listen. I love Fern. Good. Me and Fern have had a, hmm.

Tumultuous. Tumultuous is the word. I was going to use. Yeah. And because I'm doing so much therapy, like EDMR, coaching. Yes, that's so, so's fun. Right. I would like to tell the story of me in phone cotton.

So basically, when I was 20, I did something really awful that. I was really ashamed of for a long time, which I didn't interview an enemy that Jordan remembers well. And I wasn't very nice about her at all. I was awful about her. And I was fired from Radio 1 because of it. So I lived in a lot of consequence. look at your face.

You love this story. I don't love this story because I think it's unfair on on various levels. To you too. Yeah, no, totally. But I figured it out. I figured what was going on out. So when I was 20, yeah, so that happened.

And, you know, we didn't like each other. I mean, I don't even think she didn't like me. But because I've been so awful about her, I think she stayed away from me. Just defensive, yeah. Fair enough. And then when she, when I was 24, she started going out with Steve Jones.

And I was like, oh, shit. Yeah. Because I hosted deep forward him every week. And I'd see her all the time. And we were civil. but it was like a little bit uncomfortable, but it was okay. And then we just sort of didn't see each other. And then last year, she sent me a message on Instagram

when I was having a fucking awful time on the sofa trying to make it work. And I thought, oh. And it was me and Lily talking about the press and how awful they've been over the years. She said, hey, Makita, I just watched the clip of you talking about how the press used to refer to you and it resonated deeply, having awful things written nearly took me down completely and I'm still trying to overcome the aftermath today.

I just wanted to say thank you for opening up about it. I guess you always assume it's only you who they've picked on but there's so many of us powerful clip all around for me to see, sending love, Fern. And I was like... That's deep, man. Thank you for this message, Fern. And do you know when it made me realize?

It made me realize that the press was part of it. Yeah. They used to call me ugly and dirty and fat. And I saw her as what a TV presenter should look like, clean, thin, groomed. And she scared me, Joila. She made me feel like I wasn't in the right job, like I shouldn't be there. It wasn't her fault. It was just I was told by the press that I wasn't right and she was right.

And I didn't mean to be awful to her. And I think it made me that that shit makes you turn on each other. Yeah, it's horrible. So it was really, like, it was really good for me to realize why I did that. Why I felt that way about her and why I wasn't nice to her. It was unkind. And it wasn't me. And that message was really healing for me.

And I said, there has so much love back. And I knew she'd just been through a divorce and was on this new journey. And I just said, I wish you so much luck on your fucking new chapter. And it was just all love. So actually, me and fun got on a fine, Jordan. I'll see you a happy place next year. Oh, me. I mean, that would be seminal, actually, you two chatting on stage.

I think that would be really powerful. Right? I think it really would be. I would love to do something like that. I just thought it was important to say because I was always so ashamed about that. I'm actually lost for words. I think it makes me sad because I don't think you should have been subjected to that at that age. Yeah, they didn't give it shit.

It's cruel, actually, to, you know, they know, even if you said something in a moment of jest or frustration, they know what's going to happen, you know. And someone's, like, multiple people have okayed that. I don't know, it just makes me feel uncomfortable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? A whole room of people. Yeah, let's call her that.

It's just disgusting. Yeah, or like, yeah, no, let's call her that. But also a duty of care, I'm assuming, one, the journalist interviewing of the enemy is probably, I mean, they might be your age, I don't know, but certainly the editor might be older. And then, you know, all these people who will look over the article, look over the interview and kind of go, well, you said it. bang. Definitely. I tried to retract it and they said, nope, you said it. Exactly. That

fucks me off. That actually makes me angry. And look, I was a kid. I was like 19, 20. That's what I was going to say. Obviously, you're by definition an adult. So like, yeah, you've got to hold yourself to accountable. I've also said many things I regret at that age. But then like, you know, I don't know, I'm older now. And I look back and go like, I just, I just can't imagine being that person personally. This is actually weirdly similar to this Jude situation, like, in a little bit, you know, where it's just like people will say, well, it's a journalist, we're there to document. I'm like, yeah, but you're also human.

Yeah, exactly. You're also human and you're there to go. You're a fucking human. Not everyone's going to be perfect, but I feel like if you're going to allow someone to fuck themselves up, I think there has to be more to it than that. I think it has to be more to it personally. But anyway, I think you're a fucking legend for sharing that.

I really do. And I think that, like, don't get me wrong, you were fucking, you were a nightmare back then, but you were struggling. because like how else do you cope with that level of scrutiny? And I think like... Well, I didn't have scrutiny like Lil or something, but I just, when there was attention on me,

it was so negative and so racist. Yeah, it's fucked. And just awful. But you know what? I'd love to be like, thank God it's changed. I was in the shop on Saturday and the Daily Sport had a picture of Lil on the front and it said, Lily Allen in like X-rated boob shop inside.

So me and Maddie opened it and it was like Lily in a bikini on her Instagram. and right next to that was their topless chick picture. In the daily sport they do, they kept that tradition alive. And I just thought, fuck. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lily Allen gets her tits out. It's like, no, you've still got chicks with their tits out.

Lily put a picture on Instagram and a bikini. Yeah. Like, fuck off. Yeah. Anyway, we, yeah, let's wrap. Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you, Nat. Let's wrap.

It's been quite a journey. And also, like, I really think it, yeah, it's really cool that you shared. I don't know if you've shared that before on here. No. I only realized it last year when she texts me and I was like, why was I so awful to her? But not even just awful to her. Why did I focus on her as some sort of negative threat? And that's when I realized it was she scared me because she represented. I was scared. I think that happens all the time. It happens to me. I feel like I'm got myself to a place where, you know, I don't, I don't think I'm ever really envious just because I think people are. super complex.

Like humans are so complex. I don't allow myself to believe. I don't allow things to become monsters that easily. However, I'm still a fucking human. And every now and again, there'll be something that pops up or someone that pops up that for some reason just elicits this thing.

And, you know, ultimately I've got to sit with myself and ask myself. And actually, recently I had it with somebody who, like, I wasn't a massive fan of their, it wasn't actually that deep, I just didn't really like what they produced. Represented. No, no, not what they represented.

It was actually just what they made. but they was fucking cool. I met them in a fucking cool and it was like, well, this is awkward, isn't it? Because I don't necessarily, you know. But this is interesting because it's about, it's not that there are some people put in the world to make us feel bad about ourselves.

It's about getting older and being able to look at the monster and ask why. Because even last year, I would have been like, oh God, yeah, me and found cotton don't get on. But why? Why did you say those things? What was going on for you? Oh, right.

Well, there was this happening. I just dissected it and the fucking answer was sitting there. I was like, oh yeah. Also, I don't know if this is too much of an extreme thing to say because I do hate people, but I sometimes feel like if I was to really think about the people that I hate. There's some people who I hate as a response, which maybe that's slightly different. Like I feel like I've been attacked for no reason. And so I'm like, fuck you, right? Like Jeff Barrows from Porta's Head, like that guy, fucking.

What did he? The guy from Porta said came for you. He was really fucking horrible to me on Twitter when I was, when I was, when I was, when I was, When I was actually a kid, when I was about 22, and I didn't, I had, I had no idea, I was actually paying him a compliment. It was really, it was really fucking bizarre. And obviously, dummy's like one of my favorite albums ever, but he can go fuck himself. I'm actually gonna, I'm actually gonna write an article about him, going to fuck himself. That's awful. You were a kid and he came for you. Yeah, yeah, he called me like some kind of like, like, like, like he was just saying, I was like some stage school, fucking whatever and I was just like,

whatever. But I've seen his tweet since and he's just, he's up himself. But anyway, why was I saying this? Yeah. So with that, I feel like, you know, I feel like almost like a, a, a, a, a, venom that's been summoned from me from from from from like from like you know as a form of self defense but people who I just who haven't had interactions with and they and I feel there's always something in them that in me in them you know like I feel like the opposite of love isn't hey it's indifference right like people who I actually don't fuck with I don't even think about like I literally don't care isn't indifference a beautiful place to live do you get what I'm saying well it's not really because it's apathetic sometimes and that's scary.

No, but hate is about so much more. No, but I'm saying that like it's, it's scary. I'll give you an example. If you broke up with someone who you loved and they're indifferent, that is fucking terrifying. No, that's horrible. Do you get what I'm saying? That's why you don't want indifference after a breakup. So I'm saying if someone's hate, if someone's angry at you, hate you whatever, you know, needs a thing, it's a testament to the love.

Do you what I'm saying? Totally. That's why when, when, I've had rejection or breakups my goal is indifference at the time I'm like I fucking hate you putting me through this anyway we really must wrap because I've cried I've laughed I've danced

we really did have miss me today also I've been insulting too many people but I mean it's just that kind of vibe yeah it's that kind of day let's do some shout out to a couple people just to do the balance but we love there's just a couple people from this week that okay Arthur Ferry

legend Robert McFarlane Robert McFarlane legend and Phoebe Oliver there you go Baby Oliver Legend. I think we need one more. I feel like we need one more shout out. Let me see if there's one. Someone that we have mentioned. I want to shout out Candice Carty William. She's got Queenie. The next Queenie books out. I love her. There you go. That's perfect. Thank you, Jordan. It's been marvellous to talk to you today, my love. I will see you for listen, bitch. We're talking four play. Oh yeah, Jude Benningham. Sorry, shout him out. Sorry, yeah, four play, listen, bitch. Yeah, great. Can't wait. Can't fucking wait. Talk to my mate about it. Four play is eight.

multi-layered, multi-layered playing field. It would turn out. So we'll see you for the games. Let the games begin. Let the games begin. See you then. Thanks for listening to Miss Me. This is a Persephoneka show.