Miss Me? - The Greatest Thing You’ll Ever Learn… with Zawe Ashton

Episode Date: July 31, 2025

Miquita Oliver and Zawe Ashton discuss weddings, the Lionesses Euros victory, and 90s music influencing their identities. This episode contains very strong language and adult themes.Credits: Producer: Flossie Barratt Technical Producer: Will Gibson Smith Assistant Producer: Caillin McDaid Production Coordinator: Hannah Bennett Executive Producers: Dino Sofos and Ellie Clifford Assistant Commissioner for BBC: Lorraine Okuefuna Commissioning Editor for BBC: Dylan Haskins Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. This episode of Miss Me contains very strong language, adult themes, but we also talk about weddings a lot. Zowie, how the hell are you, darling? Oh, it's good to be back with you, sister. Is it good to be back? We were a bit like, can we ask her to do it again? Is that a bit much? I was like, no.

I'm so happy to be back. I'm sad that Lily's not here because I love watching you and Lily, but I'm also happy for myself. The only thing that takes away the joy of doing Miss Me again is you don't get to actually watch and listen to Miss Me, your favorite show? My favorite show. I've taken away my own pleasure by saying yes.

But honestly, I am so thrilled to be back and I hope everything's going well with Lily's play. Yes, and you know what? She started and it's gone well. I sort of, because I've been in this like, last weekend was just all my cousin's wedding. It was deep wedging that we will go into. There is so, so many things to unpack from that weekend. But she's done really well. I'm really proud of her because she was getting very nervous. I don't know how the hell she does it. I know you've done a lot of theatre as well. But no, doing a play is hell. It's right. Please. Thank you for saying honestly. It's

hell. I'm glad that she's taking the space because you did Pinter in New York, didn't you? I did in London and New York. I've done. Yeah, I've done. I've done a lot of theatre. And to be honest, every single time is completely terrifying. You're like, this time will be different. I will feel more prepared. I will feel less self-conscious. I will feel like I can do things

in the first week of previews. And you can't because you're insane. You're carrying all the words in your mind. And it's also just really exposing. And you don't know how it's gonna go until you do it. You don't like film something and watch it back and go, that wasn't as bad as I thought. You're just like, okay, I'll just have to do this live.

Yeah. Is that the thrill of it as well, Shory? Yeah. That's the thrilling part as well. And it's where your love story began on that stage. In a play called Betrayal. But hang on, were you two betraying each other, you and your lovely partner, were you betraying each other within said play? I was the betrayer. I was the main betrayer in the couple. Yeah, I was the only betrayer

in the couple. So you sort of acted out the worst thing that can happen in your relationship before even starting your relationship, which is quite good. Get it out of the way. So, get it out of the way in a kind of a cosplay-y sort of role play, which maybe you should do before getting married, segueing seamlessly into my million questions about the four-day wedding you've just been at. This wedding...

Okay, my cousin Mabel is, she's the beloved baby child of Nana and Cameron, my Auntie Nana. You know, she's always, you know, when Mabel wants things to go a certain way, she's very focused and determined. And she only got engaged last November. So it's been quite a heady- Wow. engagement. Now suddenly we're having, you know, the big wedding, but she married a really, really good, actually a really good man, a really good man called Priya Crooks. I want to say his name today because this man, he, and he loved her from afar, Zowie for years. He was like that Mabel girl, she's the one.

She's gonna be my wife. Well, no, he was like, she's out of my league. And it would be nice, but in my dreams, you know, I'll just obsess about her. I'll just stand in the shadows. Just quietly stalking her. And then they met, and I remember she was like, no, I'm not sure, I'm not sure.

And then suddenly they were just head over heels in love. So it was nice to watch Priya literally marry his dream girl. This is so heartwarming. It was beautiful, life affirming. And it was quite a lot. There's a lot that goes, if you're gonna do it all with a wedding, there are so many parts to it.

Like we had, we had Hen and Bridal Shower, which I talked about, but then we had to do wedding rehearsal at the church. Beautiful. Can I shout out the church? Cause I just met the most amazing Reverend I've ever met. And I really, he just, I want to go back to this church. It's called St. Stephen's Church in the city.

Obviously there are other lovely churches available. Other hit reverends. But for now, yeah, there are. There are other vibie reverends, but this man, he's called Stephen as well. And he was just so brilliant and made everyone feel really comfortable. They're a really religious family, Prio's family. He's Nigerian and Jamaican. And Mabel is also, her faith is very important to her. Are you religious? It's okay if you're not.

No, I'm not. I was christened, but I don't practice anything. I'm spiritual. I've practiced Buddhism for a long time. But I'm not, I'm no, I'm not of the church. But I love, but I do love a church, but I love a church for a wedding. Me too. I like that kind of rootier, spiritual kind of all this. There was so much faith and prayer and song and they had this gospel choir. And let me tell you, I have never enjoyed being a bridesmaid more in my life. So you were a bridesmaid? Yeah, I was. What was the outfit? What was the vibe? What was the ritual? I'm still wearing the diamond necklace that Mabel gave all the...

Can we just? I can't take it off. It just feels so good. It's subtle enough to go from wedding to podcast, which is what we're loving about it. It's day tonight. We were all in a black, which actually I thought was very chic. Very chic. And it was a bit like, yeah, it kind of felt like a bit like, we're here, like a little bit bad man as well, which was great, which was a really good feeling. But I did my walk, because I've been a bridesmaid about four or five times

that way throughout my life. Wow. I'm really jealous of that fact. I've literally, people always ask me, but I've never done an aisle walk like this. We walked down the aisle in single file with a single white rose to the most beautiful gospel singing ever. And I was like, this is my sister act

to churchy, like every dream I've ever had. I was like, this is it. And every romcom in one. And I was like, what's the face that you do? Like what's the right walking down the aisle face? Cause it's not your wedding. Ah, it's a good thought actually. I've only ever been a maid of honor. So that's the only time that I've followed someone. As an adult, I was a bridesmaid a lot as a child.

Cause basically just children were chosen to just dress up and follow the bride. It doesn't really matter if they knew you or not, if they wanted that effect. Yeah, yeah, you're just a cute kid follow the bride. It doesn't really matter if they knew you or not, if they wanted that effect. Yeah, yeah, you're just a cute kid in the family, exactly. But I would say that's a really good question because I know what you mean. You're sort of walking along behind,

wanting to hold the seriousness of the moment, not making it all about you. Exactly, it's not your wedding. And I was like third of seven. So I went for a bit posy and poised. So very like, you know, sort of, I'm not going to recreate it, but that's why I went for. I love that.

I think I did the right thing. I think I did the right thing. But it was all these cultures coming together. Because, you know, Mabel is Sierra Leonean, Swedish, a bit of Cockfoster's in there as well. And then mixed with all these kind of like traditional Nigerian blessings and traditions. We did like a spray, do you know that?

A spray with money. Yes, I've seen it. Again, I don't think I've been as an adult to Nigerian wedding. Right, it was amazing. So what was happening? So Mabel goes to the dance floor and then all the, I mean, it an adult to an idea of wedding. It was amazing. So what was happening? So Mabel goes to the dance floor and then all the, I mean, it's really important to the aunties.

It's not just like, yeah, now let's throw money at Mabel. Like it's a very spiritual thing. It's about bringing abundance and prosperity into the bride's life. And so she goes on the dance floor, they play the tunes and then you have to lay, you can't just throw money at her. You have to lay the money on her and sort of bless her and dance and sing and it was joyous. I was a bit like, this might be a bit weird and I

loved it, loved it. Because they had their wedding at the V&A. Okay, this is where my mouth hits the ground. So we had, we had like, we had just had chic bridesmaids with the diamond necklace that's just to take home for any time. We had the laying of the money. We had the Nigerian, Jamaican cultural mix. And then we had the V and A. The fucking V and A. I was like, Maypool, really?

This is, this is amazing juxtapositions here. Yeah, actually, you know what? It felt really crazy to be in the V&A with a lot of black people dancing and raving all night long because we had Jazzy B from Soul to Soul, cause old family friend of theirs. He's DJ'd, I know Goldie. It was absolutely amazing. And I danced all night and really like just felt fed with love after this wedding.

I really do feel like, wow, I was part of something really special. Cause then I had to, then I was guiding it. I was like on the mic, like introducing the speeches. I don't want to say I emceed it. I was the guider. That felt really nice. It felt like a real honor, Zoe,

for Mabel to ask me to like be in the wedding in those ways. I'm a bit overwhelmed. This sounds unbelievably epic. So what day are we on now at the V&A? Are we there for the whole four days? Are we getting coaches there? There was coaches. No, there was rehearsal dinners.

I mean, there's a lot to do when you're doing it, when you're doing everything, the rehearsal dinner, then you do the church, sorry, church rehearsal, then the rehearsal dinner, and then like the whole day of getting ready, because she got married late, which I loved. She got married at like five o'clock. Right?

Sexy. Yeah, real good. And also it was like, why would anyone want everyone to go to a church at like 9 a.m. for a wedding and make it feel like work or something? It was like, no, let's take our time and shimmy through this.

I mean, I do, I really love weddings and I really have always wanted to get married. My mom has no interest, none at all. No. What about you? No desire. Have you thought, it's like, have been something you've thought about for your life?

Yeah, well, we've been engaged for a long time and there are, I think there have been publications that have named us husband and wife already and those text messages were very, there's some toxic paragraphs that were thrown my way like, uh, okay, no invite, whatever. I was like, no, no, no, it didn't happen. We didn't do it in secret. We haven't, like, it's just like a semantic thing. Because we call each other husband and wife. I think at some point you're like,

girlfriend, boyfriend, with a kid and another one in the way. Does that feel, does that feel right? So you do already say my husband. That's quite nice. But you might have to actually have a wedding soon. Yeah, but it's also pissing off people who are actually married. So like you realize that's just like, not real yet. And so yeah, yeah, we thought about it, you know, in

different ways. And I think I just as a girl, you're like, Oh, I wonder what that fantasy will be. It's just sold real, real, real well. Sold real well, it's packaged up good and nice. And actually at the wedding, Priya's parents, Garth and Aunty Funkazi and Nana and Cameron, Mabel's parents, they had both celebrated their 35th wedding anniversaries this year. So they both come from a place of like longevity

within marriage and I don't, I've not seen that, apart from my auntie and uncle, pardon that, okay. So I think maybe that brings it into like focus for me a bit more. It's like some people are married for 35 years and happy and love each other and still call each other baby. That's nice.

It's so, so many questions in my head. Okay. So first of all, have you thought about your own wedding? Were you at the wedding thinking, I'm taking secret notes? Because it's, because the wedding is the fantasy, right? And then the marriage is a reality. So I think I've thought a lot about weddings. I've thought a lot less about the reality

of what maybe marriage is, because I probably find that a little bit more scary, a bit like Andy, just like, hmm, okay. What's what happens after the- I think she's just a rebel punk, my mother, and she hates tradition and I love tradition. I think that marriage, for me, looks weirdly like mom and Garth

because they never run out of things to say to each other, and they still make each other really fucking laugh. And I'm like, that I'd be interested in. I would be interested in that. Because there's so much problematic history to it. I guess I always worry that the ghosts of the problematic history will somehow just rise up after the fantasy wedding.

So you've had the ceremony, you've had the feeling special. I really want to know what you think you might wear. Like, what could, you know, do you go dressed? Do you go, like- How many looks? How many looks how many looks are we doing? Are we doing veil? Are we like, say no to the veil? Because again, that's got some weird kind of problematic symbolism about it. What are we doing? So I love that

again, the fantasy is just so seductive. But then I'm like, will the ghosts of Victorian women? Oh, you worried you suddenly wake up a kept woman? All the ghosts of the Victorian women were like... Oh, you worried you'd suddenly wake up a kept woman? It would suddenly wake up and someone would tell me that I didn't have any more rights. And I'd be like, what? Small print. Yes, and if you... You know what?

You no longer have any rights as an individual or as a big... Yeah. Yeah. Just wake up to some, like, yeah, some priest at the end of your bed, like, it's all over. I don't want to speak for your lovely partner, but has he ever told you why he wants to get married? I wonder what men find exciting about the idea of marriage. It's so interesting. We've talked about it. I think that the spiritual bond and the anchoring for what it does for you as a couple and as a family, I think is really appealing to both

of us. But also engagement has been wonderful. You can't cheat the process. Yeah. And people kind of rush through engagement and I'm like, engagement is really useful. Why is everyone like, I'm getting engaged to get married. I'm like, no, be engaged. Being engaged. I can't wait to be engaged. That's the fun of it.

Be engaged. Be engaged. Work things out. Because that's a big yes that opens up a whole new tapestry of understanding between you, between you and each other's families, because you are saying yes to each other's whole line. Yes, big time. Right? It's like bigger than just the two of you. So I've loved engagement because you're

learning. You're like, what is this yes going to be later? This is like a notch up from just being partners boyfriend and girlfriend. What is this bit? And I think that's been really informative. Definitely. It's been great. Training ground. It's the training, it's the training ground. It is the practicing calling each other husband and wife. It is looking down at the ring finger and being like, okay, this is the, this is the tradition that is potentially going to come with this first yes. Yeah. And also, I mean, in the church as well, like, I mean, I have always been very interested in having a deeper religion in my life because my mum is, I think, basically an atheist.

She's not for, actually, that might be a bit too much to say, but she's never lent into, I've always wanted to go to church. I was like, please can we go to church? And she never wanted to. I got her to a church in Barbuda because we were making a TV show. And I think she did enjoy it,

but that was about as far as we could get. So I heavily leaned into spirituality like four or five years ago, and it's a big part of my life. But being in there and hearing this prayers, Aoi, and hearing about what it means for two people to decide to look after each other for the rest of their lives, it did really resonate with me.

And the priest said something interesting. He said that to live in gratitude and love gives our bodies a biological response of pleasure. And I love when you can do that to yourself. You make a decision, you do it with love and thanks, and you can give yourself pleasure because of this decision. Cause it's scary marrying someone and going, you, you forever.

So it was quite an amen weekend. I was a bit like, amen. I love an amen. Listen, amen, amen, amen. We can say it so many different ways we can go on for 20 minutes with amen. But I think vowels are really important and I think that you never get to say stuff like that out loud. And also, I think being an actor, you've kind of simulated these experiences. Have you ever got married on screen? You haven't been a wife in a film or a TV show. I've been a bride in a music video. Oh, who?

Excuse me. It was, oh my God, it was so long ago. Do you remember the Beautiful South? Yes. It was, it was the man from the Beautiful South. Why am I blanking on his name? What, his solo stuff? He did a solo moment. Paul Heaton.

Paul Heaton. Paul Heaton solo career, solo music stuff. I think it was the first time I'd worn a wedding dress, definitely. I've never worn a wedding dress. You need to go and try on a wedding dress. Isn't that really sad? I think it's actually, again, I think you need to simulate these things like vows,

like say them aloud, see what it does to your body, your biology, like this great Reverend is saying, let it change you, let it take you, let it take you over. Let it take you, yeah. Because saying, let it take you over. Let it take you, yeah. Because saying it for real and saying it as an actor are two different things. I actually really struggle to say very meaningful things in public. Oh, oh, oh. As a person in a way that I don't struggle with as an actor.

Okay, interesting. Interesting. And now what does that say? So you can be, you can say I love you loudly with meaning and power and autonomy on screen, but you'd be a bit embarrassed in real life? What stops you? I think in real life I find it quite hard to be like looked at and observed doing intimate things. I find that very difficult. Such a kisser in public.

I'm such, I'm so like, snog me in public. No, we love the PDA. Come on, we love the PDA. Heavy petting. We can't review. It's my favorite. I think that's it. Maybe you're just, maybe you're just quite private, Zoe. Maybe you're just quite private.. I just think it's so weird though isn't

it because I do really, maybe I need to like look at that, take it to the therapy office. Fucking look at that. But the vows are really really big, they're really big and I always cry at that part of a wedding. Again because I I feel frozen in that part of it myself. And you know what, I cried when I saw Priya's face when she walked in. He was so emotional. I thought, you sweetheart, but you can't fucking believe this day's happening.

Marry a dream girl. And like, I mean, he just looked like he couldn't quite believe what was happening. And it kind of, I don't know, just brought it all together of like, weddings are a bit of fantasy, aren't they? It's like this day of magic, because why the hell not? I think they are a day of magic. And I think no matter how you do them,

there is a vibration about a wedding that is just so next level. It's not like anything else. When you as a guest are walking towards a wedding, like you're saying, being a bridesmaid, you just always feel different. Yeah. Well, and that's kind of a sign of its power, right? Yeah, it feels like for just one day, for just that day, we all believe the same thing,

which is that like, love is the most important thing. What is actually the next, someone asked me, Kelly, there was a mom, you know, she was talking about her son who's six, maybe seven, said to her yesterday, what's the meaning of life? And she was like, oh God, it's that time. And she said that she, her answer was to, you know, to look after the people around you and to do good and, you know, do the best that you can do

as a human being for yourself and others. And then we, and then I said, and it's also the Nat King Cole song, isn't it? I always thought when I heard Nature Boy. Don't bring me Nature Boy here. This is my favorite song. It's so good. I quoted that quote at my 40th,

the wedding I threw myself. And that was the line that we need to say the line. Well, I think you should act her. The greatest gift you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return. Even with that Nat King Cole sweet voice singing it, it's just hits because that is it. But I wanna know what you would like

your wedding outfit to be. I'm actually itching. Would you go vintage? Oh my God. Yes, yes, I think I would. I think I'd wanna do, oh my God. You know what? I need more time with this question.

No, just say, what's coming into your head? What are the images? Are we thinking lace? Are we like in a pearl, pearl white, crisp white? I really like lace. I really like what Whitney Houston wore to marry Bobby Brown. You remember it was like all lace and then she had like a kind of lace white skull cap. A skull cap.

Because she fucking can. Because she can. But then I really like bandeau dresses at the moment, like strapless. That's what I wore for Mabel's. And I really like bandeau dresses at the moment, like strapless, that's what I wore for Mabel's. And I really like having shoulders and, what's this called again here? The decolletage. The decolletage. The decolletage. Having that out felt really sexy and elegant.

So maybe a bit more like clean, straight, Narcisco Rodriguez, like, Big Carol and Bessie Kennedy. Oh God, there's so many things. And what are we doing head gear and footwear? Monomers. I sound like such an arsehole. But yeah, it's the wedding shoe. It's perfect for you. And then what about the head gear? Are we doing a lace skull cut? No, see, I really want a massive veil. And you just said that veils have problematic

history as well. God, what the fuck is that? What happened with them? Tell me. Well, it's this whole like shrouded and then revealed just as your married self, do you know what I mean? Rather than being your own self, you know, not being given away by a man to a man. And this is your new identity. Like, hey, lift the veil, this is me, I'm being given by men to men for life. I don't know if I can do that but I do love the aesthetic of a veil. So what's gonna happen? They look so good. Maples was amazing. They look good.

They look good. Especially if they're going down the steps steps if we're doing drama, like royal drama, and we're letting it extend beyond the doors of the church or whatever. That's kind of big. That's kind of extra. Yeah, I thought Meghan Markle looked very good at her wedding. Did you see it? I think so. I thought she looked quite chic.

I have never been more invested in a wedding in my life. I was so into it. I filmed me and my best friend watching it like a Google box, like a Google box episode. I will have to release it at some point because I feel like it actually represents so much about like British identity. And where we were at that time. Yeah. It was a big moment for us black people in this bloody country. It was a big moment.

We can't deny. Can't. Nobody can deny. And you know what the worst thing was? It was just before it all became the predictable terrifying mess that it became when it comes to how Meghan Markle was treated in this country by the British press. And before then, just for that one day, we all believed it could be better and that it would be.

So it was a day of magic. I wore a Union Jack t-shirt. You were invested! There is a little bit of black in this Union Jack today. And I'm going to embrace this. I nearly wore a hat just for the effect, just for the feeling and the effect. But I've literally never been more invested. And I honestly, you know what you said about the gospel choir,

the moment to moment surprises within this, you know, we've not seen a black gospel choir in Windsor. We haven't seen this. No, no. But then what was sad was where were the aunties? Because remember it was just the mum. Yeah, Doria who looked so chic in like peppermint. Yes, yes. Beautiful. Peppermint skirt suit and she was sitting on her own and I always thought that Charles should have sat with her. I feel like Charles should have sat with her. There were a few little kind of... I don't know. It's just...

We're like, so ladies who love to just talking about weddings. We've done an entire first half about weddings. And I've been waiting for ages to talk about weddings. So thank you for letting me go in on that. We had to go in. We couldn't have skipped over it. But now we'll have just a little, little break from all this love and romance and commitment. Welcome back to MISP. And guess what gig I went to at the weekend as well.

Even after the wedding, I fit something else in. ProTow. Alanis Morissette. Guess what gig I went to at the weekend as well. Even after the wedding, I fit something else in. Pray tell. Alanis Morissette. Let's just pause. So, for one, not someone I ever thought I'd see live. Really? I saw her on the Dragon Little Pill Tour. Oh my God, what in Haiti?

No, no. That would have been me getting taken in by an adult. I don't know how old I would have been. No, this was like 12 when it came out. Yeah. Yeah. How was it? I loved it. It was transcendent. It was transcendent. Can I just say yours would have been slightly better because mine, I, there's quite a lot of the other albums. No offense. We don't want that. Actually, there was one tune, Hands Clean, from like album three that I forgot about, which was a tune. But what I just, Jagged Little Pill,

it came out so long ago. And as I've said before on Miss Me, and I'll say it again, it took over the world. This tiny independent album. And to see her at the O2, I went to the O2, which is truly, truly hideous place, but I will go there for Alanis. And all these people watching the O2, I went to the O2, which is truly, truly hideous place, but I will go there for Alanis.

And all these people watching the Lionesses game, big up to our beautiful England squad. Beautiful, beautiful work though, right? What glorious shit. And a special mention to Michelle Adjimang, who scored the most beautiful goal in the semis and of course Chloe Kelly who is probably going to be 90 or something after this. Legends, absolute legends. Joyous and glorious. I'm so proud of them. Obviously, pick up the manager Serena Vigman. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Come on, she's doing that Jedi mind shit that Arsene, my icon, Arsene did in the early days of his tenure with my team.

Yeah, yeah. Who I know is not your team. No, not at all. So well done, everyone. But yeah, and Lannis, and it really brought me back to 12. And 12 was my like, you know, my real, that's when music became my life. And in turn, clothes and the way I dress suddenly became very powerful.

Yes, the tribe. A lot of messaging with what I was wearing. And it was really nice to kind of remember that freedom within sort of that mixture of freedom and power that clothes can give you. I think it probably happened for me around 12 as well. Just like I need to project everything I'm about instantly to the world, especially to boys, but mostly just to the world. Everything I'm about, yeah, totally.

And you were sort of cobbling yourself together from so many different references, yeah, because there was no blueprint and there there was no, like, black indie. So I was like a super indie kid, like biracial kid from Hackney. You know, I wanted to wear my DMs. I loved Blur. I wanted to, you know, dress like basically every kind of punk little, like, clip of someone

that I'd seen and... Yeah, because where did we get this information? like basically every kind of punk little clip of someone that I'd seen and- Yeah, because where did we get this information? I guess like Spin Magazine. I did buy Spin quite a lot. Spin was good. Spin was good. Spin was good.

Oh, deep cuts, deep cuts. Well, what we did was look to America, but even over there, I mean, I swear it was just like the mixed race bassist from No Doubt maybe we got him. And then later it was like, I found absorbed myself in music and you're old enough to go to music nights and you were meeting older people who were like giving you the musical education and you were at the gigs and whatever.

Then you find out about the, you know, polystyrene, you find out about the Pauline Blacks. You know what I mean? You find out about your, your, your scar punk, you know, kind of queens that were there all along and we, but it wasn't mainstream, so we didn't know about it. So, Skin from Skunk and Nancy, I would say, she did a lot of work on her own. That woman. She was saving us, I think. The only black woman I've ever seen in that role as like the lead of a indie rock punk band, like I'd never seen anything like that. And she was like a black woman with a shaved head.

But who the fuck is this? It was really, really special and big for me, actually, her presence in the world. And also saying things that even though we were really young, you could tell were subversive and that she wasn't supposed to be saying, you could tell that she was disrupting shit in a massive, massive, massive way. And at one point it was like, if you don't respect skin, I can't, I can't trust you. I hope she's hearing this. I really feel like she doesn't get praised enough.

Yeah. Taking on that role, it must have been very lonely, very isolating. And nothing happened until Kelly from Block Party came around 10 years later. There was no space for black in India at one point and you had to choose sides and a bit like you, I bet. Like I was a musical fashion code switcher. Like I could go to the indie night and go in the mosh pit, match that skinny white boy rage in a big way, get thrown around, do you know what I mean? I was in it.

And then I could go to the garage club. Oh, oh, you double timed. Listen, I was like, I was transcending. See, I got very tunnel vision. I was like, I am grunge. I don't understand anything else. And this is what I do. And then Phoebe and Namima started listening to Wu Tang.

And I was like, we can't listen to like black rap. Like we're in this. And they were like, yes, you can. And then they started listening to Prodigy. And I was like, it's fucking over. I don't even know who we are anymore. We can just do what we want. Like give yourself some freedom.

But you were kind of dipping a toe into all these scenes. I wanted to and I love them and I liked it. And again, it was so funny thinking about boys and like back then, if a boy said, I like the same band as you, you'd be like, well, let's definitely like get married. Now if a guy came up to you and was like, oh, that's so weird you like that band, I like them.

Do you wanna go to bed? You'd be like, excuse me, can I get your credit score? Medical records. That was enough then though. You like smashing pumpkins too. Let's go. Let's go. It meant everything. But I wish we knew each other. I wish we knew each other. I know. Why didn't we? Because it's the Hackney Grove thing. You were on the other side of town doing this. East versus West. But the fact that you were into grunge, I'm like, okay, me and Makita would have just been going so hard and so deep.

Who were your people? Oh, right, okay, Nirvana forever, obviously, but I really liked Soundgarden, Pearl Jam. Yes, Pixies. I never took it there. I didn't really go like back. I was very into like the grunge bands of right that moment. I mean, I'm a massive Pearl Jam fan.

I don't think there's any voice I love as much as Eddie Vedder's. Jesus Christ. Wow. And then also I like like sublime and shit. Wow. But I am, I am interested in this idea of being 12 and identity and trying to find it through clothes and trying to find it through music because it wasn't available to us just again within that mainstream. And I think that was

hard when I think back that was way harder than I realized at the time. Yeah, I was just so desperate for like cohesion. I just wanted all those worlds that I was code switching between to belong together, which I really think they do now. I don't think the youth of today are asked to define themselves. I hope so. I hope that is the world now. I guess you're right. I think I see that more and more and more, everything is just sort of blended.

Like at one point to wear vans as like a person of color. Was an issue. People looked at you like, oh, okay, so you don't wash. I was called a dirty hippie. That's what I was called. I forgot. That's why I was called a dirty hippie. And I'd go, I'm not a hippie.

This is about grunge. And they were like, not listening, you dirty fucking everything. And I was like, no,, this is about grunge. And they were like, not listening, you dirty fucking everything. And I was like, no, that's actually a real difference, but there was no reference point for them, I suppose, of what this was about, a black girl in like vans or converse. I think it was actually, you're right, a much more isolating time than we would have thought,

but definitely why I got my job three years later, because I knew how to listen to myself and trust my individuality, if I'm honest. If I'm completely honest, I knew it could be a power. I think it's really, really good to think back to these times, which is why I love this podcast and just riffing like this, because that was about freedom of expression. And when you're going along like questioning your own freedom of expression, like, can I say I like Alanis Morissette or whatever? Do you know, it's so, it's sort of so suppressive. And I think when I got to about 16, my mum got, my mum got really

at my mum got cancer. And living with that kind of rupture at home made all of these things that we're talking about like so much bigger as well, like so much more important, like acceptance into tribes was like, unbelievably, it was just really, really important to me because I was suddenly like, what if my main tribe, like my home tribe, is broken by losing my mom? Your grounding was all shaky, right? Yeah. And so I was that kid who was probably, you know, putting on the leather jacket and kind of, I don't know,

acting up a bit or trying to project this thing not only because I wanted to find the right people or like the right boys to snog, but also I was like, I really, really need this. I'm extremely vulnerable. And I think there were probably a lot of kids like that who you thought at the time, oh my God, they're just so, so bulletproof, but actually probably had a lot of other stuff going on. Probably really fucking searching for something that makes them feel safe. And like they can like be in this big scary world.

When the most terrifying thing you can think of might be happening, you need safety and some rooting and some tri- and some tribing again yeah and the lyrics to songs oh my god they meant so much see we've got to save this for clubbing we'll save it for clubbing I love you Zowie Ashton I love you too thank you for talking to me again today. We will be back on Monday for Listen Bitch. The theme is clubbing clubbing clubbing. Not raving. We've done raving.

This is about the clubs we've been to and I started looking back and actually it was just like, you know, and suddenly you unlock something you're like, oh my god, the so ho years. Oh my god, the frog years. Like it's all been a bit upsetting. So I've got a lot to talk about if Zowie doesn't. If her life has just been far too tame, I'll take us there.

I am still scared of what my mum thinks of me. You're gonna have to show her some of the things that went down. We will see you then. Thank you very much, Z Sally Ashton. Bye! Love you, bye! Love you, bye. Thanks for listening to Miss Me with Lily Allen and Meketa Oliver.

This is a Persephoneka production for BBC Sounds. What comes to mind when you think of Amber Heard? A liar? A survivor? A narcissist? The trial of Dept v Heard was a global phenomenon, but I want to know, was it a fair fight? I'm Alexi Mostros, the host of Sweet Bobby and Hoaxed. In my new podcast, I'm investigating whether Amber Heard was the victim of an organised trolling campaign. Listen now on BBC Sounds.