Miss Me? - The Wokey Popey

Episode Date: May 15, 2025

Lily Allen and Miquita Oliver discuss weight loss drugs, beauty standards at 40, and Robbie Williams’ new art exhibition.This episode contains very strong language, adult themes and discussions about disordered eating. If you have been affected by any of the issues raised, you can find support via the BBC Action Line: https://bbc.co.uk/actionline/Credits: Producer: Flossie Barratt Technical Producer: Will Gibson Smith Assistant Producer: Caillin McDaid Production Coordinator: Hannah Bennett Executive Producers: Dino Sofos and Ellie Clifford Assistant Commissioner for BBC: Lorraine Okuefuna Commissioning Editor for BBC: Dylan Haskins Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The Dear Daughter podcast received some fantastic letters from our listeners recently. I just had a lot of emotion and I had to put it somewhere. Together, we're creating a handbook to life for our children. Feelings that you don't know how to express verbally, write it down. Enjoy the life you have. No one can tell you what tomorrow will bring. Dear daughter from the BBC World Service, listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts. This episode of Miss Me contains very strong language, adult themes and discussions about disordered eating.

Hi, welcome to Miss Me. How's everybody doing? How colourful are we? We are peppy and bright and ready for everything and anything. Is it even sunny in New York? Because I'm mirroring the beautiful weather that we're having. Is it sunny? It couldn't be more beautiful here. If it tried. It could not be more beautiful.

Matching your mood. I've never seen such beautiful weather, if I'm honest. Really? Is it nice springtime in New York City? It was actually very hot yesterday. My friends, not my friends, they are my friends, but they're Sam, my ex-husband's niece and her husband George came over, Lucille and George, and I made a Sunday roast. And it was really hot. And it's funny making a roast in it when it's really, really hot, because obviously it just doesn't make any sense. Yeah, but nothing will stop you on a Sunday

from making a roast. No, it won't. We really should talk about your roasts a little bit more and miss you one day. Really dissect them and take them apart. Okay, we can do that. And Lucille was very concerned. She's like, what do you do when it gets so hot here? Is

there a Lido? Where do you take the girls? And I was like, I don't think there is a Lido. But I think in the 70s and stuff, you see pictures of the kids outside with the fire hydrants, but that definitely doesn't happen anymore. Yes, but New York gets hot in a different way. If you haven't been there, it is quite a shock when you're there in the middle of summer. I know. But I think what happens is people just stay inside with the air conditioning on. They don't go out. It's too hot. Or they go to the Hamptons.

Or they go to the Hamptons. Ethel, my daughter, who's obsessed with the weather, she's always checking the weather and wanting to know what it is. Usually she tells me what the temperature is going to be, which I don't understand anyway, because she says it in the American way rather than the English way. And I'm like, that sounds nice. And she's like, no, mommy, that's horrible. I'm like, okay. And then, and then now she tells me the UV level. Good. That's good to know. Yeah. She was like sunscreen out tomorrow, mommy. Speak time. So UV level of nine. I was good to know. Yeah. She was like sunscreen out tomorrow, mommy. Beach time.

So UV level of nine. I was like, well, thank you. Thank you, Ethel. I don't know what I'd do without you. We really shouldn't have left the house without a hat today, mommy. I was in the garden with Nanny and Theo over the weekend. It was really hot and Marley was here. And I was just like, look at three black people just sitting there thinking that they don't need sunscreen and it's not part of our routine. Not one of us even mentioned it. Tyson says that she wears sunscreen in the winter, in the day. And if I don't get to it now, 60 is not going to look good. Let's

be honest. Especially not when you're rubbing olive oil in your face and sitting on your balcony. Not a good idea. Can I just, because we're so chirpy, we're in such good places and I just need to get what happened last week. I failed my fucking theory test by six measly little questions. And I was quite traumatizing. I remembered, I felt that feeling of being in the exam when I walked out. Just from walking into the test center, suddenly it was all very testy and they, you know,

serious, they take your phone, this poor guy's got repeat over and over again, everywhere is CCTV. Then when you go in the room, they have to check my under your feet. And I was like, what would I have under my foot to help me pass? It's some answers written under your foot to help me pass. It's some answers written on under your foot, funny. But yeah, I was, oh God, it was frustrating

and enough to make me go, oh, I'm never gonna drive. And I was like, no, no, gotta get straight back on it. Yeah, I'll get straight back on the horse. We don't give up. We don't give up. That's what we don't do. We never give up. No, we never give up.

And what I'm not gonna do is segue into automatic. I'm not doing that. Okay, I'm learning manual. Oh, no, don't do that. And that's the end of it. But how have you picked yourself back up after like a test going badly? It's such a particularly new, I don't experience this often. And I don't have history with experiencing it because of the lack of tests I did as a kid. I don't think I've had to. I don't think I've done any tests. I didn't do any exams. I left school before GCSEs. I did my driving test and I know I passed. You faced it. But I studied.

What are you trying to say? Because I didn't actually study really. I crammed for two days. Yeah, that's not good enough. So you need to get it in your bones. But I don't know, I think I don't think I'd be very good at being tested. And because I'm because I'm actually not very good at studying now. My concentration span is terrible. I can't I can barely read a book at the moment. But I thought that like, I was like, hang on a minute. I do study Lily, my job is to research literally. And I'm really good at it. I love researching so why can't I just do the same with like fucking road signs but I just hate them because it's boring it's boring as sin you're doing research on things that you're interested in so therefore it's you know it engages your brain in a different way ain't nobody got time for road signs

including every driver I know as if they remember what like the tram sign is. We'll see. But there are celebrations to be had. Number one celebration, we have a new pope. Pope Leo, he's in. Yeah, American pope, the woke pope. The woke pope. Actually, I haven't heard that yet.

What do you think this will mean for the world and America, Lil? Any views on that? Well, I think it's quite interesting because, you know, America, especially, you know, this administration professes to be very pro-Christianity. And obviously the Pope is a big part of that. J.D. Vance went to go and visit the old Pope Francis just before he died. God bless his soul. And the new one is not a fan of Vance. He's not a fan of being horrible to immigrants.

He's not a fan of, actually I don't know where he stands on women's rights and smoreshmans, but I'll read up on that. But I think it will be interesting because he's not the American pope that this administration would have liked, I don't think. Exactly. And also I think, you know, if Pope Leo is sort of questioning American policy as an American pope, I don't know, it just feels like something may come from that, something interesting may develop from that kind of friction, I suppose. Hmm.

Who do the right-leaning people of this country love more, Trump or Pope? It's a big question. Trump or the Pope? We'll leave it to you, America, to decide. You tell us. I wonder if people... I'm sorry, just to go back to that, but I wonder if people will, because you know, that sort of right leaning side of the internet,

the loud side of the internet, when anybody that isn't a politician sticks their head above the parapet to give their two cents, they'll shout them down and say, stay in your lane, you know, don't talk about politics, what do you know, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, but you can't recite that to the Pope. If a pope does it, it's like, no, no, no,

I'm here to like check in on humanity. Like that's literally my job. That's literally the job I'm here to do. So could you let me just do it, America? Interesting. I think he tweets. I think he tweets. I wonder if he'll be allowed to tweet now that he's pope.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So previously he has been an active tweeter and using X, the platform X, to what? For his views and policies. He definitely does have a Twitter account. Back in February, the New Pope criticised JD Vance for an interview that he had given on Fox News about Christianity.

Vance had claimed, this is quite amazing, that a teaching known as Ordo Amoris justified Marcus crackdowns on immigrants. He said, you love your family, and then you love your neighbor, and then you love your community, and then you love your fellow citizens in your own country, and then after that you can focus on prioritizing the rest of the world. So he said, wow, what a fucking bonkers thing to say. The new pope tweeted, JD Vance is wrong. Jesus doesn't ask us to rank our love for others. Quite. God, he's going to throw some humdingers on them like that constantly now. It's like, let me just come back at you Vance.

Is that a plat- what's a platitude? You love your family and then you love your neighbor and then you love your community and then you love your fellow citizens in your own country and then after that you can focus and prioritize the rest of the world. I just want to say another congratulations to David Attenborough who turns 99 this year. Fucking hell. Happy birthday, bloody national goodie. You good one.

Treasure. Yeah, I guess he is a national treasure. I wanted to give him some... Of course he's a... If he is not a national treasure, I don't know who is a national treasure. I feel like he needs something bigger than national treasure. Do you know what I mean? It's like, he's like the country's grandfather.

And actually, because he is turning 99, there's all these brilliant TV shows going on here right now, Lil. And there was a particularly great one with Michael Palin interviewing him at his lovely house in Richmond and talking about his whole life. And what you get is the whole story. I think a lot of people think that revolutionizing nature programming was David Attenborough's main role, but this man changed television. He was the controller of BBC Two. A few months after it launched, it wasn't doing well and they brought him in to turn it into everything that it is today and everything that television is today.

So you think that he needs to be like, you know how Mohamed Gandhi was given the title of father of the nation? Maybe, maybe we should do the same thing for David Attenborough. Yes, that's better. They call any, anyone a national treasure now. I think he needs something else. I think he does need something that's just... Father of the nation. I think it's, I think that's good.

Yeah. And when you realize all about his BBC history, you realize that he has given us enough to take on board a title of that gravitas. So I think that's something that if David is listening to Miss Me, she'll make my heart sing. She probably is on his 99th birthday. That's what I'd want to be doing. Let's be honest. I just wanted to celebrate him and talk about how wonderful he is. Happy birthday David Attenborough and thank you for everything. Your service. Now we can talk about Weight Watchers going bankrupt. I just had to say happy birthday to David Attenborough. What do you think, Lil?

Did weight loss drugs kill Weight Watchers? Weight loss drugs killed Weight Watchers, weight loss drugs kill Weight Watchers. GLP ones are having all the fun. GLP ones are having all the fun. Yeah, there you go. Oprah was a face of Weight Watchers and she stepped down because she's using weight loss medication jabs drugs. GLP ones. GLP ones, that sounds medication, jabs, drugs. GLP-1s.

GLP-1s, that sounds a little bit like street drugs. Yeah, I know. Two CBs, yeah? GLP-1s. I'd say two GLP-1s. It is a bit like that, and it's sort of killing all the other ways that people have sort of long relied on losing weight?

I mean, listen, I would love to go on record and say it's great. Like, you know, there are lots of obese people that don't wanna be obese, and there's this drug that's come along that's, you know, helping them to not eat so much. Yeah. Like, great, good for them.

We'll see what happens in the long term, because I'm sure, you know, it hasn't been around that long. I'm sure that it will come with some of its problems, but I don't begrudge people. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I think it's science. They've managed to find this thing that helps people. There's a huge, huge problem and such a strain on our health service in the UK, certainly on the health service here in America. So yeah, I mean, if you can get people's

body mass index down and their cholesterol levels and their heart pressure, everything, it can only be a good thing, I think. These weight loss drugs that are available so wildly now and the sort of use of them is becoming quite rife, do you of course have side effects? There are side effects to all of these drugs. Yes. But I suppose at the end of Weight Watchers feels like the demise of group therapy being part of addiction.

And you know, because I think Weight Watchers started in the 60s in New York as like a support group. And I think before then people didn't talk about wanting to lose weight and didn't, and it was shameful. And would have used all different kinds of ways. And this is when people started to share, I think it's when, I think it's when the question why came up and, you know,

to discuss that, like the same as alcoholic alcoholics, anonymous, same as AA. It's like using that group. I mean, like you know a lot more about it than I do obviously, but it's like using that group therapy mentality to sort of take shame away and get to the why of something rather than the fix of something. Like you can lose weight, but why were you addicted to food in that way in the first place? Why do you drink? Why are you addicted to alcohol in that way in the first place? Oh no, don't get it twisted. The underlying problems will still be there and will manifest in other

ways. So we shall see how that burns out. I'd like to talk a little bit about some of the diets I've done because we've done a few. We've done a few. Atkins. Now that was a game changing situation. Dr. Atkins told us that if we just ate protein and high fat, we would lose weight like we'd never lost weight before. And even though Atkins, people aren't sort of in the middle of, I don't hear people say I'm on the Atkins diet anymore, but let me tell you how big it was. Don't you remember, Lily? Yeah, that was huge. Absolutely everywhere. So what it's done is even though the Atkins diet isn't around so far, per se, anymore. I think it's left a lifelong fear and dread of carbs,

carbohydrates within the world, within the Western world. People just don't, I personally, if I'm gonna lose weight, I don't eat carbs, and that is like a, I think an after effect of Atkins and everything we learn from him. Basically, you just want your body to go into ketosis, so whatever gets you there, because ketosis is fun. It's interesting because I have been on a journey

for at least the last six months of trying to gain weight, failing miserably. I'm sort of getting there actually. I'm starting to turn a corner, but I don't find that carbs help me at all. It's protein that I need that will help me to gain weight. Are you telling me I could be eating loads of baked potatoes and I actually wouldn't

put on weight in the same way that I think I might? I don't know. I know that for me, you know, but I guess it's because I work out a lot, so I do a lot of exercise. So I need to be, yeah, I need protein in order for my muscle to build. What are you eating? Steak. I have like protein shakes and I eat, yeah, chicken, steak, yogurts. Yeah, because the Atkins diet wasn't really

about health and nutrition, it was just about dropping weight. I did lose a lot of weight on it when I was like 18, no, no, like 20. And I guess it's just stuck around in my head that like carbs are not good. I think it's important to talk about going up and down through it because you and I have been, I think every size, we've both been quite overweight, we've both been very slim and somewhere in between. And it's quite serious being thin in my job, if I'm completely honest.

If I'm completely honest, it's the reason I started working again. I don't think if I hadn't lost weight, I would have started working again. And that sort of hangs over me now. It's like a hangover of that. Also, I'm not even assuming this. I know this to be true because I've been on a shoot with a big brand that I won't mention

because I'd quite like to work with them again one day. And it was a really painful experience. I was doing it with a friend of ours who is naturally very, very slim. And I think I'd put on about three or four pounds to take me from being an eight to a 10. And the fitting on the day on the shoot, on set was just unbearable.

I wasn't fitting their very, very small clothes. And it became a real problem for the day and it had a knock on effect. Suddenly everyone's like going and having really uncomfortable conversations in corners. She doesn't fit the dress. Well, Miki is not fitting anything. I can't even tell you how that feels

when there are 200 people on set waiting to start something, not 200, but like 50, and trying to make something work. And when things like that happen, you go, I am never letting myself put on a few pounds again, because it's just not worth what happens around it. I think it's really important to explain that like within this industry, like samples aren't a joke. They are sizes six and sizes eight.

And if you don't fit them, you can't wear them to the event, to raise your profile, to make money, to pay your team, to keep your career going. Do you understand what I mean by the knock-on effect is actually very real? Yeah, I do. I mean, I think it's like a very, very unique experience that not many people will understand because, you know, in order to have access to sample sizes, you know, you're operating in a world that most people don't understand anyway. Yes, but I think it's important for people to know

that on the face of the industry, everyone talks about how there are changes being made. And this very, very simple backbone doesn't change. You have to fit these clothes that are tiny. And I don't think people understand that. I think people think you just get sent your size and get to look pretty at something. I think they are getting better at it. I mean there are sort of like plus-sized

models on the catwalk and they will be wearing the samples so they should be making their way to the shoots. Not my shoes. But saying that, it's our own attitude towards our own, you know, self-image, right? I just, I hate the way that I look now. I feel like really just like scrawny, thin, I hate it. And, but if I look at pictures of myself from like four or five years ago, when I was bigger, I hated myself then too. I remember thinking like, I wasn't exercising enough, my bum was too big, my thighs were massive. And paparazzi would catch pictures of

me coming out of the gym and I'd just feel like I looked like a massive heifer. And I'd do anything to go back to that body shape right now. Anything. Can't we get you there? Just send you a tub of ice cream, like a vat of ice cream. No, it's just not working. It's not working. I'm doing I'm, I'm seeing this nutritionist at the moment. Oh, yeah. And she's like more of a nutritionist and a therapist. I might cry. And she thinks that it's just it's like a, you know, a mental health issue. And it is actually related to being famous, you know, when I was like in my early 20s and, and there being a constant commentary on the way that, um, that I looked, that I became sort of

disassociated from, from my body. So now I can't even, um, I can't even pick up the cues of when I'm hungry or when I need food because I had to just like, disassociate myself from it. Oh my God, I don't wanna cry. No, Lily, this stuff is really upsetting, really hard to talk about. You've never even said that to me before. Does this really feel like quite a new revelation for you?

Well, when she put it like that, and she was just like, you know, your body was being consumed by and spoken about by everybody else and you had absolutely no control of that whatsoever. And so your only thing that you could do was to try and escape it in some way. And I think that I did that with drugs and alcohol. And that was how I used to disassociate. And then, you know, when I gave up drugs and alcohol around five years ago, you know,

that's when it's turned into something else. Turned into something else, yeah. Honey. Yeah, but I definitely have issues with, you know, my body being mine, you know, it being me that inhabits my body. Like, it's a really difficult concept for me to try and understand because it's obviously quite weird. No, I don't think it's, I think that's what I meant, Darlene, actually. Thank you for telling me that because I think that really explains what we were trying to talk about earlier of like the difference between the why and the fix. It's like I could

send you a tub of ice cream, but that's not really the point. The point is like, how did we get here? Right? Well done for looking into it. Yeah. I'm seeing her once a week and she's got like these meal plans for me. My goal is to be strong for Hedda, which is the play that I'm doing over the summer. So yeah, I need to be able to be strong and also have brain power. Food is really important and I need to take it seriously. Should we breathe?

Should we have a bloody break? Yeah. Let's have a bloody break. Had a little cry, little laugh, classic Miss Me. Let's have a little break. The Dear Daughter podcast received some fantastic letters from our listeners recently. I just had a lot of emotion and I had to put it somewhere. Together, we're creating a handbook to life for our children.

Feelings that you don't know how to express verbally, write it down. Enjoy the life you have. No one can tell you what tomorrow will bring. Dear Daughter, from the BBC World Service. Listen now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Welcome back to Miss Me. Welcome, world. Welcome, Lily. And thank you for joining us, everyone. I'm back from my little cry. And yeah, and now we're going to talk about beauty standards in your 40s. So that'll be fun. Yeah, now I'll cry.

I'm going to cry. You can cry. No, I was thinking about how lucky we are to turn 40 now. Yes. Even two generations before us, 40, it's over. It's dead. It's gone. Next generation, people in their 20s, I think 40 is going to literally feel like 25. If we had done 40, this is my point, if we had done 40 15 to 20 years ago, it would be completely different. We would be in a world where it looked different and we would feel different because of that in ourselves. I think we got really, really lucky because now that I'm 41, I'm like, God, in the old

days when they said life ended at 40 for women, God, you don't get much time. It would have been so short and I would have been like, no, I haven't even, shut up, you old bitch. And I would feel like I had so much more to give. Like now my mom is 60 and showing me that it really, you can do anything at any age and you really can be at your most beautiful and in yourself. I mean, look at my mom now compared to like in her

late 20s, early 30s after Shaun died and she was just a shell of herself. Look at her in her 60s, Lil. Look at your mom. So the one thing I would say is I feel very lucky to turn 40 in this day and this age. Thank you for everyone that came before us. I'm so sorry you had such a short span of youth. But do you not think that there is like a lot of pressure for people in this day and age to look a

certain way? That's it. I mean, we can be we can be grateful, but also acknowledge that it's hard. But we have a lot more access to things like Botox, fillers, lasers, facelifts. Yeah, but in a weird way, it's kind of eating itself earlier because the younger fucked, which what I mean is we're so, we, our generation, Lil, are so lucky that when we were young, we didn't worry about that stuff. It wasn't in our vocabulary, it wasn't near us. And now at 40.

So it kind of like we're the luckiest, like the luckiest generation in that we had life before and after the internet. We also had it before and after Botox and fillers. Yes, yeah, I do feel that. I feel that now at 41, I get to be young again. And if I was young now, I'd be worrying about being old, which obviously I was a bit when we were young,

but not like in the way that I would do procedures to prevent aging. I just think it's, I think we got very lucky. Me, you, Sienna Miller, we all turned 40 at the right time. Have you seen how good she looks though? She's in this new campaign with her boyfriend. I was like, yes, 42, go on. Don't know how she does it.

Anyway, I'm a big advocate for lasers and Botox. I've never had filler. Please don't. I don't believe in filler because I think from my understanding, limited understanding of it, you know, filler, they put it in your face and then it dissolves, right, eventually. So then whatever it's been filling is then going to sag. So you just have to keep getting it. That's like part of it.

It has to be regularly done. I'm not getting involved in that. Absolutely not. So where does Botox go when it leaves? It just stops working. And yeah, so basically it paralyzes your nerves. Or, yeah, I guess like it paralyzes muscles and it, you know, every person is different, but sometimes it lasts like three months. Sometimes it lasts like six months.

There is a moment about two weeks after you get the Botox where your face looks a little bit weird. It's like, and you can't quite put your finger on it, but you know, you're looking in the mirror and you're like, why is this nothing's just sitting right? Like my eyes, I can't do my eye makeup. And you're like, oh yeah, it's that two weeks after the Botox thing.

It's just like, you just look like a freak. We're gonna end up embalming ourselves at this rate. Yeah, not for me, but I did have a dream that I'd had a boob job and I had my 26 year old boobs and I was like, I woke up thinking that I'm still rocking skims bra so my boobs would never look better. But do you remember my boobs? 26?

Yeah. I also remember your boobs. I'd like to have those at 50 so I might get a boob job in my late 40s. I think that's the kind of thing I might do. Yeah. Do you know what, Polly Vernon just had an eye lift and she's very like, open about it, she's like, yes, I did it,

there's a whole piece about it in the Times. And I was like, how could something so small do something that's even worth going through that for, but she does look fucking great. Really? It's called worth like going through that for, but she does look fucking great. Really? It's called something. Upper blepharoplasty. That's it. Upper blepharoplasty. Oh God, you're so versed in this world. I know it. I know it all. Wait, who was it? Polly? Polly Vernon. Polly, you look great. A little eye lift might be nice. Meryl Streep gets one and it's complicated.

And I was like, why? But I think, I guess this is where you wanna be young. Just like a little ticky. Yeah. Are you gonna lie about your age, Lil? Some friends of mine talked me into joining a particular app just for a few months to see what I had. And the little fucker turned me 41, like on my birthday.

I was like, all right, okay, shouldn't I put that information in? Are you just gonna keep coming with me? I was like, oh fuck off. Yeah, see now you're in the bracket of like 40 to 45s. I know, I know, which is fine, absolutely fine, but. That's a kink for some boys. Stop it, I'm way at kink level. No, fuck you.

I would say that you're probably more likely to be, yeah, being hit up by boys in their mid, like mid thirties. Fetishized by late twenties. All I keep hearing from my friends in their forties is that they're being fetishized by boys in their late twenties. I was like, sounds great. Wicked. I'll be fair.

Mickey has been waiting for this moment her whole life. Little did I know I had to get older for it to work. Anyway, I think lying about one's age is quite interesting because I know very smart, brilliant women who are very centered in themselves and love and respect themselves who just lie. I don't think we can lie because our ages are Googleable. But if I could lie, I wouldn't because I wouldn't want to look like shit for 32. I'd rather look excellent for 41.

Do you think it's harder for men then to get older? Do I think it's harder for men to get older? What? Absolutely not. No, I think that their struggle with it is like more socially acceptable. Men having a midlife crisis is like, you know, oh, he's just having a midlife crisis. Women aren't allowed to have the midlife crisis. It's like, you just deal with it. You're getting old.

Yeah. Whereas men, it's like, oh, he's really struggling with getting old. Why? The whole world isn't judging him on the way that he looks and what he's achieved thus far. He's also got loads of time left to have kids, be attractive and do things in the world. So he can fuck off. No, I wouldn't say that to Robbie Williams. And I wouldn't say that this is a midlife crisis, his latest art show. I would not say that. I would say it would be churlish for him to not share his gift and he obviously feels the same. So he's got a new show it's called Radical Honesty. It's an art show and there was a scathing review, no other way to say it, scathing review in The Guardian and I don't know how anyone can even write a review this badly and how anyone

could read a review this bad about their work and still get up in the morning. Tone-deaf, self-important, incredibly bad art. The former Take That Singers show features line drawings filled with therapy speak, greeting card banter and meaningless affirmations. It's a tough review. And I actually have seen the art. As I said, it's really not very good. And I wonder why he would put it out. But he has. And he has essentially been very criticized. And I've never had a really bad review. I'm not saying this to pump up my chest or anything. I've just been really lucky. I've had terrible, horrible,

despicable things written about me, but I've never had like a review of work I've done and it be really bad. And I don't think I've, I'm terrible with criticism, terrible, even constructive criticism, fucking awful. So I wouldn't be able to get out of bed after a view like this Well, what would we do? How can he take that on his shoulders? I really don't think he'll give a fuck

You really don't know if we talk about Robbie Williams He's been like on the receiving end of some like pretty harsh criticism over the years I think he probably knew damn well that it was not gonna be very well received I'd put money on the money going to charity, right? I don't think he's trying to earn money. No, Lily, it's not. It's not? It's not going to charity.

This is, the money's going right back in his pocket. Okay, well good for him. And listen, art is like subjective. I mean, if he feels compelled to like get up in the morning and make something and that's what comes out like great it good for him yeah I think if Robbie had an attitude of like you know I'm gonna fucking storm the art world like then maybe there's like a reason to you know give such sort of scathing

reviews but I think if you're just like making stuff and putting it out into the world, like isn't that what we're here for? Like isn't that what we artists are here for? To make stuff, put it out there. Yeah, but he's not an artist. Yes he is. He's a recording artist. He writes songs, he writes music, he creates things.

It's just a different medium. There was a period of time when my mom started hanging out with Robbie Williams quite a lot through Charlie Condu. And he's an a different medium. There was a period of time when my mom started hanging out with Robbie Williams quite a lot through Charlie Condu and he's an absolutely lovely man, but I've never been a huge fan of his artistic output ever. Oh wow, I mean, I think some of his music is absolutely incredible. I agree with you, Lil.

Put out what you want, see what happens, but- No, not even see what happens. Put out what you want. The end. See, I care too much about what people think. Don't get me wrong. I care what people think. Of course I care what people think. But it shouldn't be... It shouldn't stop me from creating and creating from a place of honesty. Yes. You know? And I think that that can be a real problem when you're sitting down to write something and you're thinking about how it's going to be received, especially

in this current climate of like online criticism. You know, oh, God, that's something that could definitely light off on social media. And I think that that's a sort of terrifying prospect, really. And I think that you just have to be able to sit down and just make whatever the fuck you want and not worry about what. I totally agree. I was watching this great show, which I'll talk about on Listen Bitch More because it's got a lot of clothes in it, but it's that Disney show Vogue in the nineties. And it was Tom Ford talking about those like excellent groundbreaking, game-changing Gucci shows in the 2000s. And he said, you don't make what people want,

you make what you want and then they want it. Or you tell people what they want, that's what he said, by making what you want. And I was like, yeah, absolutely, when art is made for praise or God forbid virality, I'd rather step out the bloody game, thanks. Yeah, and it's like, you know, you're not gonna sit down and be like,

right, okay, I'm gonna make a song today. What are the rules? Yes. What makes a hit song again? No, not even like what makes a hit song, like what are the no-go areas, what can I not talk about, what can I remember them, what can I not?

There are like rules, but when you say, you know, like something groundbreaking comes along, it's not because somebody sat there and thought, what are the rules? I'm going to stick to them. It's the people that think, fuck the rules. I'm going to do whatever it is that I want and hope for the best. See it's sentences like this that made a recent Vogue article, uh, compare Lily to cultural icons such as Attenborough and Bowie. Shut up! Yes! Why are you talking about?

I'm going to save it for listen, bitch, because again, it's about clothes, but that's how they, Lily Allen turns 40, here are 40 of her best looks in Vogue. And it said, Lily Allen, a cultural icon, mirroring the likes of David Attenborough and Bowie. I was like, that's actually pretty amazing. I'll take it. My little friend, that's amazing. I mean, that's pretty amazing. I mean, that person who, that sounds like some Gen Z AI wrote that. What kind of cultural icon is Lily Allen? Bit like Attenborough, bit

like Bowie. Okay. She will still take it. We will still give it to her. We will see for Listen Bitch on Monday for clothes. I'm so excited. I haven't really wanted to get dressed in a long time, in a few months, but I've just started to get a bit more into clothes again. I just sat around all weekend reading magazines and just looking at clothes I love and watching documentaries about clothes and designers and fashion houses and shit. So I am ready for listen bitch clothes. Can't fucking wait. You got some clothes story, you got some gum story for me. Babe, you're talking to Lily Allen, the cultural icon. I should have liked David Attenborough. Never have I asked you this.

Who was it? Richard Ashcroft? No, babe, David Attenborough and David Bowie. Okay, Richard Ashcroft? Don't do that to yourself. That's not what Vogue said at all. Okay, cultural icon, I'll see you for this a bit. Lily Allen, the new Richard Ashcroft.

See you, I'll see you later. I'll see you later. Bye. Thanks for listening to Miss Me with Lily Allen and Makita Oliver. This is a Persephoneka production for BBC Sounds. If you've been affected by anything raised in this episode, go to bbc.co.uk forward slash action line.

Hello, I'm Manushka Matandodawati, the presenter of Diddy on Trial from BBC Sounds. Sean Diddy Combs is facing a fight for his freedom as his hugely anticipated trial starts for sex trafficking, racketeering with conspiracy and transportation for prostitution. He denies all the charges. I'll be bringing you every twist and turn from the courtroom with the BBC's correspondents and our expert guests, so make sure you listen, subscribe now on BBC Sounds and turn your push notifications on so you never miss a thing.