Miss Me? - Turns Out You Are Alive

Episode Date: February 26, 2026

Miquita Oliver and Jordan Stephens discuss the joy of Jamie Laing, awards, and attractiveness.This episode contains very strong language and adult themes. Credits: Producer: Natalie Jamieson Technical Producer: Oliver Geraghty Assistant Producer: Caillin McDaid Production Coordinator: Rose Wilcox Executive Producer: Dino Sofos Commissioning Producer for BBC: Jake Williams Commissioners: Dylan Haskins & Lorraine Okuefuna Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. This is not the future we were promised. Like, how about that for a tagline for the show? From the BBC, this is the interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your everyday life.

And all the bizarre ways people are using. the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of Miss Me contains strong language, sexual content and adult themes. Why don't you welcome everyone to miss me? You travelling little? What? Go on finish it.

Finish a sentence. Artist. You know what? It's because I was going to say minstrel and I realised that it's not... How relevant? How relevant? You felt an impulsive desire to refer to me as a minstrel. That's interesting.

What is the name of the word if someone's like a travelling musician? Traveling wanderer. I mean, maybe there's a Latin root for minstrel, which is like a performer of different guises. It might have been taken over by the wrong people. Popular chocolate. Popular chocolate. Ah, yes, of course, minstrels. Yes. Hello, everyone. Welcome to Miss Me.

Welcome to Miss Me. It's another international edition because I have decided, well, I'm going to be traveling a lot, actually. so that'll be fun. But that decision has come to me whilst in Thailand. I have gone from Thailand to Canada to see my girlfriend end her North American tour, which... It's an absolute stonking success. It's an absolute huge success.

I actually, what's crazy is I miscalculated how far Thailand was from Canada, which was funny because I, for some reason, thought... I didn't even want to say what I thought, but when I got on a plane in Dubai and they said, you know, the journey is going to be 12 hours. I was like, oh, okay. So it was a 22-hour journey, I think. Canada is not that close to Dubai, is it? Yeah, nope.

Or Thailand. So I... Can I just say we were talking over the weekend? Jordan's like, just getting on plane after plane, after plane. And I was like, I don't think you've thought about where in the world you were going to. No. I just knew I had to see the end of her tour, man. I would have, I would have, I would have like been sad if I had missed.

it. So I just said to a travel agent, I was like, guys, look, I want to go from Thailand to Canada. I'd like say less. Make it work. And then, but obviously when you get given the timing, I didn't account for the time difference. So they said, it said on the flight thing, it went, arriving in Dubai at 2 a.m. And I was like, sick. And then when arriving in Canada at 7 a.m. And I went, oh, sweet.

Like, that's like five hours. And you're like, no, a day will pass. Then the next 7 a.m. next one anyway so I'm here but I went to Montreal and apparently it was the best

if not second best of the show of the entire tour it was complete chance that I went to one of the best shows the crowd were absolutely insane they were going crazy for Jade

but yeah so anyway I'm in Canada I'm in Toronto it's snowing I have you know I feel like I am an island person now I was once

excited to explore the many corridors of what would this be is this just like a very industrial capitalist haven that is toronto and now i'm just like don't care you can't call toronto that you can't call toronto it literally is brother i'm looking at these buildings are huge boss i'm looking at like 58 rooms people are all in meetings i'm just i couldn't i just i just want to eat mango sticky rice oh jordan sorry we should probably say jordan's having a bit of an existential crisis at the moment Not a bit. Not a bit. Full, full blown. How are you, how are you, Makita? Um, the fire horse came in. Things got really good. Things got really good. And then things got really challenging in the space of four days. I was like, can I just not have one fucking week where everything's just like cushy and like on the right path. I can't let you just know, Keith. I can't let you just say the fire horse came in.

You're just chatting to this fucking horse. I'm trying to give you really now. Well, actually, on the Monday. So basically, the files came in. Because you know what? It was Thursday, wasn't it? It was last Thursday. It was last Thursday.

Sorry, yeah. So it has been a week. And it just felt it was like, God, my life is right on time, right on time. And then shit got crazy again. I was like, come on. But I'm handling things with my most pragmatic, grown up, wizened self. I think it's time for strength, courage and wisdom in everything in my life right now. And also there's quite a lot

been quite a lot of returning to the source. Me and Phoebe was saying that, returning to who are people and people we haven't seen in 20 years. We went to, Mabel had her 30th. I told you I was on my way when we were talking.

And so that was like really like big old dose of the cherries, which was great. Phoebe made the most stupendous cake. And then also my... No, no, you do. She's so cool. It's the best.

And then my dad, my biological father was in town. The biological father. My biological father. My biological father was in town. And I took him for dinner. Can I big Abuichi? Best Japanese restaurant in Hackney.

There are other Japanese restaurants available, guys. It's actually not. That's the point. The point is you can't get good Japanese in Acme. There's only one. There's only one. If you keep looking, I'm sure you can. But I took my dad for dinner and then he came back to my house.

And then Phoebe and the kids came to stay. And Phoebe and my dad haven't really seen each other in like 20 years since I've been getting close to him. Phoebe hasn't had a chance to see him. And you've got to remember in our family history, my dad and Phoebe's dad were friends. That's why I exist. Sean, Phoebe's dad, who we lost so many years ago, he met my dad Robin in like Soho. I don't know.

My dad was an artist, Sean was a musician, and they became best friends. Then Phoebe's dad introduced Robin to his sister, my mom. And then they had a one-night Trist, one-day Tristan. On a hill. On a hill. on a hill. So it was really beautiful. It was like, oh shit.

Dad, you know, wants to see his friend, Sean's daughter. It was a beautiful beautiful. That's deep. That's deep. Yeah. Thinking about like what, you know, you just, you meet someone. They become your friend and that's suddenly why generations of people are born. You know?

Just what? I know. I don't. I trip about that all the time. I hope that calms your heart a little bit more as you go on this kind of like wave of a journey that I know you're on. It's like there are. are anchors, like you've talked about earlier, there are anchors out there if you look for them.

If you're ever feeling a bit like, oh, it's quite hard when you're travelling. The issue, fuck me, it's snowing. The issue is in, um, is it snowing. Mekia. It's zero degrees and it's literally like, like, not just snowing,

it's like blowing, it's like diagonal snow. It's like, fucking. You are so in Canada. Okay. No, I'm not, I'm not, just to be clear to the listeners, the listeners don't get to see the whole podcast,

don't get to see clips. and last week, you know, I was, just generally my time in Thailand, my emotion was very, very close to the surface because I was, I was meeting, you know, parts of myself and thinking about literally the last like 15 years of my life. So it was like a big, big, but it's not, I don't feel, I actually don't feel lost. I feel more, I feel like I'm potentially going to find more security in my acceptance of a natural nomadic energy that I've always had. But that whole approach to life of adventure and curiosity

and being able to approach people, talk to people, throwing myself into uncomfortable situations. I've always had those abilities anyway. And it's now, no, the third time, like I said last week, is the third time I've been to a similar scenario, being by the ocean, a little bit more relaxed, like, a lot less industrial, and I feel like more at peace.

So, you know, me and Jade have been speaking about that balance. Jade herself wants to do her own kind of world tour, you know, is currently on the version of one. Right now, yeah. In the middle of it. And she's going to do something she gets on with it. Yeah, so all I'm saying is obviously, I mean, I should feel, I should feel all the type. I should feel everything.

So I felt sad, happy. I felt, you know, confused, clear, all of it, man. That's the beauty of, that's what I want. I want to be feeling as much as possible. Otherwise, what's the fucking point? Yeah, get ready. It turns out you are alive. Yeah, literally.

You are alive. Oh my God. Jordan. I forgot to tell you. Turns out, I'm a fucking bitch. And Jamie Lang is the nicest guy in the world. Yeah, I know. Yeah, so I hosted this event.

And Jamie Lang was on the panel. I was like, I mean, I could go to jail for some of the things I said about Jamie Lang. I don't think J-O. I don't think J-O. It's just bitchy. I don't think J-L. No, of course not. But what a nice guy.

Yeah, it was really good. We were doing this panel about love. It was interesting. They'd got this like researchers to accumulate all the information from the last time. I don't know. 70 years about this phenomena that is love, like the emotion of love. And they'd written like an academic paper on it with lots of science energy. And it was just really interesting.

Peer reviewed. Yes, exactly. Peer reviewed, bitch. What are you saying? Real science. It was like that kind of shit. Yeah. It was like, you know, there were people called doctor there.

My mom's like, that guy is so nice. Who's that guy again? I was like, that's Jamie Langmore. I was like, Andy, that's the guy that two or three people were fighting me about in Sri Lanka. That's who it was. Did you tell him, were you honest? No.

No, I said, God, it's so good to meet you. But I thought right from now on. But can I say, the funny thing is, though, like, Jamie would actually love this kind of honesty, yes. That he would fucking love it because he, that's what I was trying to fucking tell you guys. It's like he's not unaware of the reality

of his circumstance. Most of the reason why he even built a following on Instagram is because he goes, imagine I mentor this is, Mekita. He goes into the daily mail comment section or posts about him and Sophie. Why would he want to be there?

Because he finds it hilarious because he doesn't have, it's what I mean, he doesn't think he's, he's not in this position thinking like, oh my God, I'm so brilliant. He's like, I'm just fucking around.

Like, I'm being, as transparent as possible and people seem to like it so I'm just going to keep it rolling. That's it. He's not, I suppose he's not trying to prove a point. He's not trying to prove a point. So he has all these comments up

people just calling him like a posh twow. And he's just like, Yolo. Yeah. He's a happy guy and he's really open and he was really honest about a lot of stuff and I really felt like I understood his childhood. I was like, I get who you are, Jamie Lang. Center boarding school at 8.

That's deep shit. Deep shit, bro. And then they publicized He publicised the entire buildup to their, to their wedding, which I couldn't do him and Sophie. I just couldn't do that. Yeah, I mean, that's different. I feel like that is, I mean, we are on this podcast.

But anyway, it was really lovely. My mum came and she told me I did my job really well, and it really means a lot to him. My mum tells me, she said, you've really grown as a person in a broadcaster in the last six months. I was like, oh. Oof. That's right.

So it happens when you're brave enough to shed some skin. Yeah, well, I mean, the ego death helped. What ego death? I had an ego death. over the January. I'll not tell you about it. Wait, wait, after Sri Lanka. After Sri Lanka.

By ego death, do you mean... I mean the death of everything I've ever thought about myself. It was time to go. It's like, oh, she has to die. I have to die a little bit. When... Sorry, we can talk about it later.

We've got... We must talk about the BAFTAs. Okay. That's so funny that you so don't want to speak about your ego dead is. You actually want to talk about the one thing. You said you don't want to talk about it. It's actually because the ego dead is actually... really deeply private.

Listeners, listeners, I just want to contextualise this for your own enjoyment. Prior to this recording, Miquita was very nonchalant about going into the BAFTA's. Why are we perpetuating this conversation? And just a mere inquiry, further inquiry into her concept of ego death. And bang, we're talking about BAFTAs. We're right in the BAFTAs.

Actually, let's do a celebrity-packed second half. Can I say, though, I've, I can't, I cannot tell you any more about you being a good broadcaster, Mickey, it's doing my head in. But I'm going to keep doing it actually because I do love you and everyone thinks it. I know I really like hearing it. No, it's not that I didn't want to talk about the Bafters because some really extraordinary things happened. I have to say I was disappointed hugely by the comedic sketch before the start, which is always a bit dry.

But this year it was like, can we please come to work and write something sufficient? And then the opener for Alan Cumming, it just kept down. and he's such a smart man. And I just felt like it's just a real disservice. It was just child's play. It was just child's play. It was just silly and not funny and scared. Instead of like confident and witty and sharp.

And you know, I realized it was like we have so many fantastic writers in this country. Think about the writing talent that we have in Britain, in the TV industry. Why don't we just get like Jesse Armstrong to write the BAFTAs? Like I don't understand why we can't just get like, Armando Ionucci. Like, why can't we just give him a call and say, we need you for a five-minute opener? Probably can't afford him. Oh, come on, it's the BAFTAs. It would be like an honour, I think.

I think that would really spice things up. When you say write the BAFTA, so you're saying that the sketch of being in is rubbish and Alan Cumming's script was rubbish. Yeah, the sketches, the opening and the uncomfortable links between presenters. Oh, right, yeah. Just someone on that. Oh, but I think I won one. What this year?

I did a voiceover for a short film called Two Black Boys in Paradise and it won. Yes, it did win! Yeah, I did the voiceover for that. Okay, so Two Black Boys in Paradise is an animated short film based off of a poem by the poet, Dean Atter, who I've known for a while now, and it is him, I guess, lamenting, recounting, delving into his own relationship with his sexuality and the constrictions he feels are placed upon him in society, specifically around not only a sexuality but also as race and I was very happy to do the voiceover for it

and it is a beautiful piece of work and I'm very happy that it's being recognised. Yeah, I saw him do a little bit of his speech and he seemed quite overwhelmed, it was lovely, but I don't know, Bafter made some weird editorial decisions they sort of put that win as well as like this incredibly interesting woman who is, she's the head of picture house,

cinema. Claire Bins, who's the creative director of Picture House Cinemas. And she just talked about like film and how important cinema is and even ended her speech with like, Viva Le Cinema! And they just put it in this little montage. It's like, okay, yeah, let's do that. But then let's give K-pop Demon Hunters 20 minutes.

Okay. Huge song. I can't believe I'm sitting here. And as you know, absolutely foaming at the mouth to Willam after before I die. And you're just sitting here. And you've just won one. I don't know.

Does that count for me? I just did the voiceover. I definitely tell people at the pub if I'd done the voiceover for a bough to winning short. The one thing I will say is that I helped the film get funding. So that's cool. So like Dean came to me early doors that the poet who wrote the piece, the beautiful piece and then the incredible animation studio who put it together. They needed to apply for funding.

And obviously it helps the funding if you attach like, I don't know, a name or whatever. So early doors, I was like, yeah, I'll do the, I'll do it. the voicemaver and then they got the funding and then they just won a BAFTA which is really cool. Congratulations by the way. Congratulations. I'll have to win. I guess. I also saw that he invited me and I missed that I didn't see the message.

What the fuck is wrong with you? Okay. All right. Wow. You really don't care. I didn't see the message. No, no, no. It's not that I don't care. Like obviously it's really cool. Awards are cool. And I'm so, I'm actually genuinely so happy for Dean and Baz just because, and the whole team, but they're the people I speak to you most. Because like if you watch a short film,

keeps like the animation is incredible the poem is really open vulnerable like it's based off of you know dean's heart like that i'm buzzing about like all of that so to get a commendation for that is amazing but obviously the structure of awards i do have an element of cynicism just because you know i don't know man it's like why this is what i mean but you know what i mean cynicism has no place here right this is what i mean award ceremonies are meant to be fantastical magical fairy lands of like the places where you believe that dreams can come true. The place where you believe that if you keep going for something, you will be rewarded and your work will be felt and have impact.

Like this is the kind of thing you want to feel. But I don't think awards do that. Awards ceremonies have done that for me since I was about seven. Right. I think I first watched The Bafters when I was like seven. And that's the thing. I used to love it because it was a grown up television show that I knew wasn't for me. I knew that there were words that I didn't understand and they were talking about films that I hadn't

scene. And I liked it because it was for grown-ups. And again, there is just this consistency within television in their need for more people to watch things. And in their need for younger people to watch things, they make things for that reason. So they simplify things and they pacify things. And it's like when things are excellent, people are drawn to them. You know what mean? Always. Don't make, don't dumb things down. Yeah, but I don't think awards always reflect that. That's my point. I feel like they do in America. It doesn't guarantee. Like Screen Actors Guild Awards, classy affair, good jokes, well written by the writing talent of America. Rather than here, not good enough.

But Alan Cumming, what a charismatic, fantastic man. If they'd let him just write it, I'm sure it would have been a lot better. But my friend Atkin won British debut. Is that my father's shadow? I haven't said that yet. No, I haven't seen. Yeah, it looks amazing. And, you know, this is what I mean.

There is this thing of like, Drew, like, fortitude works. I remember when Akin lived above the pub in Hackney and was like, I'm going to be a director. And we're like, okay. And now he's like made this incredible body of work, including his first film, Lizard. So watching a journey like that just makes me feel good. And then this was nice.

There's this guy called the guy who won for I swear, Robert Aramayo. Jordan, this young actor who is not massively well known, doesn't just win Rising Star fine, that's great. But then he wins best actor, but he beats like Leonardo DiCaprio. Timothy Salomey and Ethan Hawley. It's just beautiful. He's like on stage staring at Leonardo DiCaprio. And he's just like won in the same category as him for best actor.

I'm going to make you listen to it. I absolutely can't believe this. I can't believe that I'm looking at people like you. And I'm in the same category of you. Never mind that I'm studying. I honestly cannot believe that I have won this award. I really, really cannot. Everyone in this category blows me away.

And when I was in school, I've said this a million times but when I was in school Ethan Hawke came in to speak to us at Juilliard and he gave an amazing talk on longevity as an actor

about protecting your instrument and avoiding self-destructive behaviours and it had a really impact on a great impact on everyone in that room so to be in this category with you tonight is incredible. Thank you Ethan I love that

like what a full circle moment So he would have been in school maybe 10 years ago. Ethan Hawke comes and he's like, wow, he said this incredible thing. And then he's like not only in the category with him, but like beats him. It's such an amazing thing to happen in a young man's life. It was beautiful. And his dad was like so sweet and passionate. Like watching someone's dreams come true.

I also really wanted to talk about the BAFTA Fellowship, which was given to Dame Donna Langley. What a woman. You know, I was made aware of her three or four years ago because I was just so intrigued by her story. she's like mixed race she's from the Isle of Wight an incredibly powerful woman she's the chairwoman of Universal Pictures to have a British film executive not to mention a black British film executive

in that kind of high place with that much power it's very exciting it's really exciting and she really deserved this honour and I loved what she said she said and I say this to the TV industry as well as we move forward let's remember the future of this business is not something

that happens to us. It's something we shape, right, by the risks we take and the people we back. So let us continue to adapt, be resilient and make room for new voices. And I would add to that to the TV industry and lean into our abundant, magnificent pool of writing talent that exists in this country today. That's me and Donna's speech combined. I hope she's okay with me taking her first half and adding mine. But I just thought they were very powerful words and it's so true. can we please in our industry just try and be a little bit riskier and take some chances and work with the breadth of brilliant talent we have in this country so that we can make the best work we can we should we should do better because we can it's really lovely to see you

so passionate about awards it's nice to have like a alternate feeling no no no because I do listen like I said I had the pleasure of watching jade win a Brit last year you know what I mean it was like I understand when it can when it can partner with genuine hard work and isn't like the aim. If it's not the aim, then that's cool. You know what I mean? If it can just lift a pre-existing moment of magic, then I'm happy. I think where I struggle slightly is, one, the reality that some awards shows are, I don't believe,

completely authentic. And two, and a little bit snobby and elitist in certain, certain spaces. And two, I feel that like, I like the idea that somebody could be disheartened by not winning an award, but they could have made some of the most incredible work ever. That's mad to me. And the flip side is, of course, like, when we were talking about when My Man won, the boy won for adolescence,

like, for me, I'm looking at that, like, that's a nightmare. I might be wrong here. I'll put my hands up, but it's like, I know, for example, like, the fact that, like, with Rizzle kicks, we released one single and got top ten and then just blew up. Like, that was brilliant at the time, but then later in life created a massive complex for me.

A lot of the beauty for me of creativity and creation is the act of doing it. The journey itself is the, that should be the reward in my mind. To think that like a group of people have come to a decision that involves like some kind of odd like insinuated hierarchy. For me, it's just a bit tough. I know I'm sounding like I'm doing. This is the issue of me in it. Like I just deep everything too much. Like, obviously if my mate won an award, I'd be buzzing.

Like what I mean? We're about to have a lot of our family in the ring for the Brits. So I'm sure I feel pretty fucking. Joe's up for two Brits. Yeah, whatever. Like, it's sick. Yeah, Lil's up for Lutz. I'd be beautiful if they are.

I get it, but I... Or maybe I'm just chatting shit. Maybe if I won, like, some fucking booker prize or something, I'd be like, wow, a award. I'm such a great author. Dude, it's about the award. Totally. Like, there are some I don't give a fuck about,

but I give a fuck about winning, like... Oh, God, like... Yeah, outstanding British debut, I'd quite like. If I was given an award for a book I wrote, the thing that would excite me the most would be that more people would read the book. That's the only... thing that would really get me.

Yeah. But I'd love to win and be like, and then walk up and wear something banging. Like, I can't lie. I do want to do that one day. Yeah, okay, fair enough. But that's good that we want different things. Kylie Jenner was in 1999, Tieri Mugula.

I don't know whether you give a shit about that, but she looked so fucking nice. And I was like, yeah, I'm going to rock it on the, at the BAFTAs when I win something one day. So just watch this space. This is not the future we were promised. Like, how about that for a tagline for the show? From the BBC, this is The Interface,

the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your everyday life. And all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. What I did want to say was with Leonardo DiCaprio and Iona went to some after parties after the Baptists

and she was like, he actually looked really good and was like, are you sure? And it reminded to me, Iona, and it reminded me of a conversation that I had with someone last week that I wanted to bring up with you that got so intense. So someone I really don't fancy asked me out last year and I was saying to my friend

I find it quite difficult when someone I don't fancy asks me out. And then I was like, well, what is my rating system? Am I rating this person a certain number? And then I'm a certain number. And I was like, yeah, I guess we subconsciously do that all day, every day when we're thinking about who we want to date, like why we ask people out. And then I asked my friend, I was like, do you think that someone's punching in your relationship? And he did. I was like, fuck. And actually, there is this rating system that is based on aesthetics first. Like, how do people rate themselves and why? How do you get to that. Are you asking me? Yeah. Sorry. Okay, okay, I just need to take that apart. Sorry, in the

dating world, so, so me currently in a relationship, how do I rate myself or how would I rate myself if I was about to go into a relationship? No, like, do you think someone in your relationship is punching above what they should go for? And how do we decide what ratings people are? Because there was that horrendous TV show that was on, in the Nauties with Jimmy Carr and June Sarpon called Your Face or Mine. Oh yeah, remember that. Yeah, that was crazy. I basically trying to get their partner just to say the other partner's partners.

They would know, but they would also like bring on the partner's sister. The ex. And then you know that X and be like, who's more attractive? Oh, my God. So. Yeah, but all that shit's so shallow though. I mean, I just, I think punching. I think I think the healthiest space to be in with that is just for both partners.

I think, do you know what? I can't even say this is actually necessarily my angle. I think this is a school of life angle, so it's kind of Alan de Botton. But it's healthy to have, it's healthy for both partners to feel like they've won the lottery. Yes. My personal further inquiry into that would be that like our idea of the lottery is different. Like it really is. And one of the biggest shifts for me in terms of, I think,

covering a healthier relationship with love and connection was being conscious about how I feel in someone's company. I obviously have an aesthetic understanding of beauty. There are a lot of incredibly beautiful people where you're like, wow. But truly, and you know, obviously, you know, more than most people. In my early 20s, I was fucking running around. And I met many people and I was in many crazy places and everyone, you know. And I felt actually like in my mid-20s disconnected from what beauty really is because it, you know, you might see a couple and you might look at them and go,

that person is less, immediately less attractive than the other person. but what that person provides in my head like beauty someone can become more attractive to me whilst they're talking do you know what I'm saying? Yeah yeah yeah I might not look at them and go wow that person's buff but I could be sat down

they could say something or for example I could watch someone perform and be like whoa that's hot. That's hot this is what I'm saying so there is this kind of base idea of aesthetics but other things happen when you get to know someone that for instance me and my friend were going okay, let's go through some couples that we know.

Is one or the other punching, is one a higher rateer? And how do you even think about that rating system? How do you think about it? Well, yeah. Well, yeah. Beauty is definitely subjective. People have types.

What the fuck? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We've been down that road. Yeah. Like, for instance, you and Jade are just 9.7s, and you mirror each other perfectly. Sorry, 9.7s, it's so specific. You are.

and but for me I have been but 2015 I could say I was easily easily a four sometimes of five come on hate in my life

no prospects bad we've overweight like don't let me do it but and then I think I even got to a three at some point I was too drunk to remember to be fair you were too drunk to remember how low my rating had gone down I didn't know what you look like

I had no fucking clear what you look like I don't know. When I think about it now, I'm like, if I'm like living well and feel sexy and I'm dancing and I'm working hard on things and I'm looking after myself, I could feel like a 9.2. So I think it's like where you're at in your life and what you have to give as well, like you were saying. And this came from a conversation about Leonardo DiCaprio.

I find that there's a middle point of confidence, I think, with people generally because there's always, I feel like there's always a price to pay. with privilege, right? If you're beautiful, man or woman, I feel like there's another level of, like, do you develop this idea of how things should be? Yeah, like, I don't know, it feels like a bit icky even, like,

describing people on, like, a measurement scale because this is, like, actual manosphere behavior, by the way. This is like actual toxic man behavior. Is it? It's not like someone going, oh, that's my tie. That's about my level. It's someone being like, fuck it, man. Fortune favors the brave,

and the courage can be really attractive. And maybe they just don't have much of the ego. Maybe they don't mind getting rejected. Like, it's just like normal. Like, they give it a go. Someone's like, no, like, calm. Keep it moving. Like, what the fuck?

I can't keep it moving. No, this is definitely my stuff. This is definitely my twisted stuff. I just wanted to get some of it out and get some of my thinking out. Because we all pretend that we don't. Once the person that they think is like drop dead gorgeous to walk over them and go, wow, you are unbelievably attractive.

I would love to spend a long period of time with you. Like, that's just not what happens. Yeah, but actually I've always based that on something different. I think how someone makes you feel on who they are can make them so drop, dead, lustful and attractive. Right. But I think it also comes into like, you know, who are we and why do we think find things attractive? And that is going back to aesthetics. Like, what is it about a face that I think is attractive?

I'm just very curious about programming. Thank you. It literally is programming. That's literally, yeah. No, I don't. Maybe before. There's some science. that you know there are some kind of like primal instincts towards curves from a male perspective and then like shoulder width and like and symmetry and there is some science to determine what's considered like an overarching sense of attractiveness but ultimately aside from that it's our life experience where we've been socialized like how we've been conditioned you know like breasts being sexualized is necessarily like a natural thing that is something that is like also massively encouraged by society for example

Or like the Greeks back in the day used to think that having a big dick meant you're an idiot. What? But also I just think the reason I wanted to bring up is like, do you think I want to see her and talk about like what's attractive and what's not? I think it's an important conversation because even if we pretend that we're not playing this game,

we are. Okay. Listen, bitch, is astronomy. Put my hand up. I might have fucked up because I was meant to spend the weekend studying astronomy. I didn't. Miquita, you don't have to.

It's bless. All right. Well, see if listen, bitch. On Monday, the theme is Astronomy. I love you too, Jordan. Goodbye. Enjoy French Canadian energy.

It's not French anymore. I'm in Toronto now. Well, I'm happy that Jade's killing it in Toronto. Go on, Jade. Take over. She makes me want to be more ambitious and I already think I'm quite ambitious and then I hear about Jane.

I'm like, right, to get it on my shit. No, no, no, no, don't worry about it. Just do a thing. All right, love you. Listen, bitch. Bye. See you listen, bitch. Bye.

me, this is a Perse of Fonica production for BBC Sounds. I'm Joe Marla, traitor hunter, reader of minds and completely unqualified. Have you ever wanted to get deep into the heads of celebrities? Ever wanted to see some totally unregulated psychological testing in action? Welcome to my office, where I'll be making famous people uncomfortable in the name of science. And light entertainment. Joe Marla will see you now. That's me, Joe Marla. I'll see you now.

Listen now on BBC Sounds. This is not the future we were promised. Like, how about that for a tagline for the show? From the BBC, this is the interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your everyday life. and all the bizarre ways people are using the internet.

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.