Miss Me? - Unseasoned Bitch

Episode Date: May 30, 2024

Lily Allen and Miquita Oliver discuss political PR disasters over the years, what bay leaves really add to a dish, and their issues with authority. Credits: Producer: Flossie Barratt Technical Producer: Will Gibson Smith Production Coordinator: Hannah Bennett Executive Producers: Dino Sofos and Ellie Clifford Assistant Commissioner for BBC: Lorraine Okuefuna Commissioning Editor for BBC: Dylan HaskinsMiss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. on Rogers Internet. Visit rogers.com for details. We got you. Rogers. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Welcome to Miss Me. This episode contains adult themes and very strong language. Makita, hello everybody, welcome to Miss Me. Miss me, miss me, this is the meaty drop.

I would hope that you do miss me seeing as we actually haven't spoken for about four days. Is that true? Yeah, I actually felt, today I was like, I actually haven't talked to you four days is that true yeah I actually felt today I was like I actually haven't talked to you oh nearly a week yeah well I hadn't noticed I've been quite um busy I've been writing I was writing all last week which was fruitful I had a couple of good songs that I wrote and it was Memorial Day weekend so I had the kids uh for three days and had to entertain them and we did we went did a big picnic on Saturday had some picnic friends in the park situation which was lovely and then on Sunday me and Marnie made a six hour bolognese which we put um milk in yeah yeah yeah in two cups of milk

yeah and then you have to bubble it for like an hour until all the milk evaporates. Yeah, I've heard of this. And that was delicious. And then you do the same with wine and then that evaporates and then you put the tomatoes in at the end and then you leave it for like four and a half hours. And it was delicious. And then yesterday I went to the studio and they went to Coney Island

and it rained before they could go on any rides. So they had to turn around and came home. Just back to the bolognese quickly. Do you do that thing when you're serving it that Jesse, our friend Jesse told me, but he learned it from the Sopranos, where you mix the pasta with some sauce first, serve that, then sauce on top so that you don't have dry pasta with sauce on top. I did not do that, but I did post a picture of my bolognese on Instagram. Did you now?

And I actually spent quite a long time there. I posted three different stages of the bolognese with its own song. So the first one, the first one was Patience by Take That. The second one was Hurry Up and Wait by Stereophonics. And then the third one was Hot to Go by Chaperone. And it took me a surprisingly long time to get all of those bits aligned. Anyway, I had many people respond to my pictures of my bolognese. And quite a few said that I should be mixing my sauce in with

my pasta. Okay. But the thing is, I always make way too much pasta, right? Obviously. Does everyone do this? Like I never get the proportions right where pasta is concerned. It's always way too much or way too little. The actual spaghetti. Yeah. Yes. So if I was to pour the sauce in the spaghetti and there was way too much spaghetti then i can't save the sauce to freeze do you know what i mean because it'll all be mixed in with the spaghetti no one wants to have defrosted actual pasta no what you do is you only do it for every serving wow so it's like each you wouldn't do all of love when nobody got time for that i love when i can tell from your face you've just

cocked out you're like no this i won't be doing this it's not happening but i will say it got me thinking because the recipe that i used was marcella hazan for the new york times she died a long time ago but it's still like regarded as one of the best bolognese recipes out there no bay leaf and it made me think what is a bay leaf for I could not tell you what bay leaf tastes like but I use it in literally all the recipes and then people are really specific about the number of bay leaves that one uses in any recipe and I'm just like is that is it just like made up so the thing about bay leafs is and my mum says um because she always tells me to add onion to stuff and I'm like I don't like the taste of onion she says it doesn't give it the taste of onion it gives it a background sweetness

so the bay leafs are a back note it's not about particularly tasting the bay leaf it's whatever back note they bring to the general taste of the meal huh so it's like salt correct seasoning seasoning trusting no i understand don't patronize me okay about seasoning do not do not come at me i'm not one of those white people okay jesus christ i was also raised by andy oliver so fucking it's very true do not go out there spreading vicious lies that i am into unseasoned food okay i'm some unseasoned bit oh i like those joggers. Wears joggers well. Why do you think I'm looking for a man that does?

Because I do. I wear joggers well. I'm really into this colour scheme. What, maroon and red? You're not trying to talk politics to us through your outfit, are you, Makita? I really hope not. I think you should tell the world about your upcoming political hairstyle. Yeah.

In the interest of impartiality, we've been told we're not really allowed to talk about general election, but I'm going to dye one side of my haircut blue and keep the other red in the interest of impartiality, just to respect those guidelines, those BBC guidelines. We're going to find other ways to express our impartiality. How do you think we do that? Do we just say like, hmm, so general election last week, announcement. That's nice. That was surprising. That was a little bit surprising.

And it was very interesting how they chose that moment when it was raining to announce it all. And those people were... Well, I read something today that said, why didn't you just put him inside for the announcement? And they said, if he had an umbrella, he'd be a loser with a brolly. I thought, yeah, we probably would have thought that would have come up. Maybe he was just trying to appeal to people

who don't have umbrellas. You never know. You never know. You never know. It all felt, it all happened. And then we had Kirstama put in his two pennies, forgot to say anything about migration, so threw something in at the end. I thought it was incredible.

And then today I saw someone from the Lib Dems beginning their campaign on a paddleboard and proceeding to fall over continuously. The metaphors are all over the place. I feel like Rishi Sunak's PR people really do not like him. To have put him outside to make that announcement when they did and drag it out, you know, for a whole day, basically, are they or aren't they, seemed like a little bit mean. And then to follow it up with his visit to the titanic museum right let's have a listen to rishi uh who was coming live to the country from the titanic museum prime minister we are just yards away from where the titanic was built

and designed are you capturing a sinking ship going into the selection. So they did get sinking ship in. Well, there you go. What was that guy that was called like the spin doctor? Alistair Campbell. Yeah. He was called the spin doctor. Tony Blair's right hand man. Say what you want about the Blair years.

But that campaign was slick. I felt like it was the first time that a political campaign understood that it kind of had to push itself as like a brand and like use marketing and use where the country was at exactly at the time and i just feel like where's the spin doctors where's the glory spin doctors of the 90s who had like who knew what they were fucking doing i don't understand um well i think that that alice has got a podcast now he busy. Dominic Cummings got fired. Dominic Cummings got fired. So he can't do it.

I think we just need someone to call up a PR company and say, let's get a strategy. Let's get a real strategy here. What about Gordon Brown? Do we have the clip of Gordon Brown calling that lady a bigot in 2000 and... What was that, eight? That was a disaster. Well, just,

she'd never have put me with that woman. What did she say? Oh, everything. She's just this sort of bigoted woman that said she used to be late. I mean, it's just ridiculous.

Oh, the mic's still on. Trap. Been there. Yes, you have. We'll save that for the sabotage episode of Listen Bitch. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's that for the sabotage episode of Listen Bitch. Oh, yeah.

Oh, that's quite good for sabotage, yeah. Oh, poor old Gordon Brown. He tried his best. It was a mess here. Everything was a mess and he tried his best, I feel. I don't know if that maybe worked in his favour, though, because in all likelihood, the woman that was saying whatever it was that she said to him was being bigoted.

And surely calling that out is a good thing yes but that's it may have been spun as to have been a bad thing but i i don't know what about kia starmer how do you feel about kia starmer i mean he's definitely trying i think to emulate that brit pop energy that you're talking about from the blair years what was it called that character it was like a it was called was called, like, Cool Britannia. Cool Britannia. Can you believe it was called Cool Britannia and no one, like, balked at that?

At the time, it was like, yeah, Cool Britannia. Liam Gallagher and Patsy Kenser on the cover of Vogue and Blair's in power and, you know, British music had never been... But he invited them all to Downing Street, didn't he? Or, like, to some sort of function. But yeah, I definitely remember all of the sort of bad boys of Britpop. Only Noel and Meg Matthews went to that. Do you think if Keir Starmer gets in, he'll be inviting Youngblood?

I wouldn't expect anything less. Who do you think will be in Keir Starmer's victory party? Dua Lipa. Rita Ora. Dua Lipa, Rita, and possibly, take that. I think Youngblood is a good shout, quite frankly. Someone send Lily to the PR team. Honestly, it couldn't hurt at this point.

Idols, idols. Couldn't hurt if Young point idols idols young blood and eyes i don't know i don't know picking music for your campaign is tricky tricky you know how like you were talking about with your pasta and you were putting up on instagram and each section was a song that kind of spelt out what was going on take Take that, Patience. I never do that with music on Instagram. I really don't like music that spells out what's going on. I'm more of like an energy kind of DJ on Instagram. If I was on the Labour Party soundtracking team, I would do Kelly Osbourne and Ozzy Osbourne's

We're going through changes. It's good. I don't hate it because it's such a, it's such a, I don't think anyone remembers that apart from me and you. I think a change would do you good. A change would do you good. I think a change.

So Lily, Lily's advice to any party, no party in particular, everyone I think can do with her help, is Sheryl Crow, the early star. You know what? Young people don't know who Sheryl Crow is. And she was like, she kind of like had a, I don't know, black energy to her. Oh, I think it's because she used to tour with Prince or something. So she kind of had like funk. But she was like maybe a midwestern

white lady. I've almost got as many monthly listeners on Spotify as Sheryl Crow. That's quite impressive, isn't it? Oh, that's good because Sheryl Crow's a fucking legend, babe. That's good. Right, okay, I think we've done all we can here. Have we done all we can here?

I think I need to reread the BBC impartiality guidelines before I can talk any further about politics. So you let me know when you're going to dye half your hair red and half your hair blue. If I'd have had time to do it this week, but obviously, you know, it came out of nowhere. I was planning on doing it, like, all along, but I haven't been able to rush myself an appointment

at their hairdressers. Rishi just threw this on you. You know, I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that I can get in there before July the 4th, quite frankly. I wanted to talk about authority, actually, because I was working in a tennis court last week. We were doing a photo shoot that was about sport and stuff. And this guy came in and said, have you booked this court for what you're doing? Which was we had like one of those tents that you change in

when you're like shooting around and about. And then we had loads of clothes everywhere and obviously like cameras and a crew. And we were like, yeah, yeah, we've booked it for this. He was probably right. But his tone of asking us what we were doing and quite quickly telling us it wasn't allowed, just incited this rage in me, which I know to be very familiar, very familiar. And my auntie Debs said to me, well, it's called PDA, which is pathological demand avoidance.

And it's a person whose nervous system can be easily activated by an authoritative tone. And I know it sounds like bullshit, but I do have like a genuine nervous system reaction to it. Like it brings like a rage in me. Why do you think I've had so many fights with so many cab drivers? Hard relate. Do you have a hard relate to this?

Hard relate. I actually had it on the weekend. I was in a park on Saturday and my kids had gone off to go and do some roller skating. And so I thought, Oh, I'll have a little sneaky cigarette. I had a cigarette and this woman came like bowling over after I'd already put the cigarette out. I might add and said,

Oh, hi. Um, uh, like bowling over after I'd already put the cigarette out I might add and said oh hi um I just thought you might like to know that it's actually illegal to smoke in a public space in the city of New York it's a public health um whatever it was move from me move from see already that's pissing me off and then she basically threatened me she was like I'm not saying that I I might call the cops, but some of these other parents around here might also call the cops if you do it again. So I was like, uh-huh. Can you just clarify that rule in New York? No smoking in any public place.

So no outside smoking? No parks, I think specifically. You can smoke on the street, but you can't smoke in the parks. I did look it up afterwards, but it was funny because I was like, obviously full of rage. And I was just like, go fuck yourself. Yeah, yeah. Job's worth it. Just leave it out. Like, who cares? Like, how do you even know that fact that like you're not allowed to smoke in the park?

Like, what rule book are you like reading every morning? Like, so you can go up to strangers. I was miles away from anyone, by the way. And it was just like, I wasn't smoking drugs, I was smoking a cigarette. And I did, I felt this rage bubble up inside me, but I was just like, this is how I know that I'm like on a journey of growth at the moment, because I was just like, oh, thank you. I had no idea. Thank you for telling me that. And I could see it seething in her, but I wasn't giving her the reaction that she wanted and she was like

oh well thank you it's just it is it is illegal I was like oh no I know you you just told me thank you though because I didn't know that and I didn't know that that was but look at that and look what you got from it so actually the the dance between the perpetrator and the accuser what if you really want to win don't give them your rage i do know this and everything that's when i've gone the complete opposite direction to that uh i've ended up getting kicked off trains kicked out of cabs but anyway deb says instead of calling it this is great this is a reframe for us people who find rage within authority. Instead of a pathological demand avoidance, she calls it pervasive demand for autonomy. And I love that.

So that's what you would have said to the lady. You would have said, do you know what? I just have a pervasive demand for autonomy within my life. So I like to do things my way. And feel free to call the cops because I'm pretty sure they're not going to come here to ask this lady to put her cigarette out on a Saturday afternoon on Memorial Day weekend.

It's funny because I mean, you maybe do or don't know this about me, but like in our 20s when I was like, you know, being photographed a lot and followed by photographers, like I refused to go to nightclubs because I was so terrified of that interaction with security. to nightclubs because I was so terrified of that interaction with security like because especially when you're like well known there are certain people that really like to show you that they are in a position of power over you and so people would like make problems for me just because they could and it made them feel extra powerful to be able to put someone like me in their place and so I just refused to go just to places where there would be the possibility of any interaction with any kind of authority yeah yeah yeah because I couldn't deal with the humiliation especially when camera phones sort of started coming around

because it was like I was not going to be stood outside a club with some security card getting in my face just because he could and then people whipping their phones out and it being all over the daily mail. And, you know, Lily Allen couldn't get into a club. But do you get as bad as me? Like, do you get really ragey and shout back? And like, well, like Phoebe along the years has just been like, just drop it. And I'm like, I can't. I actually physically can't drop it.

And that's why we're on the street now trying to find another cab. We've been kicked out of yet another Uber. And I also, it's like a real duality where I really respect and love people and don't want to show any disrespect to anyone in any job of any kind. But I just, please don't show any authority near me. Yes. It's something I really need to work on. I do feel that rage, but it doesn't really happen to me that much.

How do you deal with your rage, Lil? Just turn it into self-loathing. I internalise it. I internalise it. I go to the gym and I save things up for, like, you know, leg day. Oh, my God. I deal with my rage with sport and there is something about because the great thing about sport which is why I still want to try and get a racket in your hand

sometime this year is that you get to hit something actually with a ball with a racket and then your mind leaves the rage and is in the game it's a great place that's why people say get it out on the court speaking of security guards have you seen the stuff from can this week there's been this one female security guard who's been like berating and hassling women of color as they've been walking up the steps having their photograph taken i think kelly roland was one of the ladies in question and maciel taveras who's a dominican actress and yun ah is a k-pop singer and actress and all three of them were like being manhandled by this woman while they were just trying to stand on the stairs and have their photo taken so there's an implication of

racism there is an implication of racism on the internet of saying that you know there may have been other instances where she was hassling white women or men and people just didn't you know write about it or take pictures of it but i don't know i did see one with the woman with the white cape sorry i was i was too busy looking at the outfits it can i have to be honest and then you told me the jesus one yes uh then you said did you see that woman? The bodyguard, what she was doing. So I had a look and I just thought, oh, she just seems like an Aggie jobs worth. Again, I would absolutely like that she took the lady.

You would have lost her. I would have lost my gas. I would have been like, let me take my photo on the stairs. Well, that's what Kelly Rowland did. She was just like, don't talk to me like that. Do not talk to me like that. Fair enough. Like, yeah, don't.

Don't man handle me I'm just here having my I've been invited here to have my presumably to have my photo taken on this carpet so can you let me have my photo taken please rude but that's the first thing I realized that I say in these moments of altercation just don't please don't talk to me like that and that is the that is the first thing you're not allowed to say and that's why I hate that the idea is that I can talk to you however I want why yeah the police as well I always fight with the police obviously the police I cannot I cannot even when I was really young and you know my stepdad Garfield runs like um parties and uh some of them have had like you know I've come

into connection with the police sometimes okay and my dad is so good with the police. Garfield's just charm offensive. By the end, they're laughing with him and drinking tea. And he's like, because I don't need... Pick your battles, McGee. And I'm like, aren't you pissed off that they're here and trying to shut us down, didn't they? He's like, yeah, but that's not going to get me anywhere.

Yeah, there is something in there. So befriend it. But also I imagine that Garfield, as a man of colour with big long dreads and walking through the areas that he's grown up in, he's been stopped and searched by the police quite a lot. And so I imagine he's come up with a way of interacting with them that he has had to learn how to survive in that environment. Absolutely. When Black Lives Matter was occurring and just first opening into the world and everyone

was focused on it, Garfield and a lot of other men that I knew that were black men of that age got really, really quiet, really quiet. My friend Phoebe said her dad did too. And I think there's a lot of trauma in the way black men have been treated by the police for years and years. And I don't think that we even know how bad some of the shit that they've been through has been. Consistently, I think it's the consistency, complete consistency. And actually, even as you were talking about your interactions with people of authority, I did think for a second i bet that because of the color of your skin you've run into more situations where people have tried to assert their control and authority over you than i have definitely in tv and work in my 20s absolutely

absolutely so stop the gaslighting it does happen it's real fuck everyone can we call to action on this one no wait because we're still talking about Cannes. And I do want to quickly talk about standing evasions. Because I don't know, I often read about, you know, Kevin Costner's new thing that he's got with Sienna Miller out, received a seven minute standing evasion. And I often read like things that have really long standing evasions in Venice as well in fact all the film festivals but I just wonder like when do they start the clock and like

who what happens like how does it like dies down and someone's like stop are we all agreed but was that six and a half yeah six and a half no seven it was seven seven minutes that's a valid point because when people are like winning things at award ceremonies everyone claps and if they're too far back the clapping dies down a bit and only luck if you're lucky the audience someone's like obviously we start clapping as they get back up to the stage and that's usually that process is about three minutes maybe four so to actually sit and clap in an audience for over seven minutes is a strange thing to do.

It doesn't happen often. Could never be me. Could never be. We know how much I hate holding things and generally doing things with my hands, clapping this for seven minutes. Also. Where are we?

At the gym? Jesus Christ, that seems like an exercise. I also did that weird thing once. Maybe it was at your play but at a play where we were clapping and i thought isn't clapping weird and then the minute i thought about it being weird it was fucking weird i was like what are we all doing doing an impression of a seal no but like clapping is strange it's a strange thing to do so no i don't think i could sit and do that for 10

minutes what is your standing evasion ovation sorry barometer like what how good does something have to be for you to be like okay I'm gonna stand up good that was great that was great I'm gonna stand up I stood up for you with the pillow Matt well obviously but that's different because I I'm your friend so you have to do this you have to stand up i mean we did get standing ovations i'd say probably 95 at the time but let me ask you this how do you feel when you don't get it does it make you hate yourself and think that i'm livid yeah i come off and i'm like fuck them yeah then people would be like it was very hot tonight it was very hot and the conditioning thank you that's very sweet yeah conditioning was a bit faulty you know or like you know people have been in the pub

since three o'clock in the afternoon they're very tired very tired and you'll be like hmm yeah you're right you're right sometimes all it takes is like if somebody in the first Yeah, actually, that's a good point. Fair point. Thank you, I need to hear that. Sometimes all it takes is like, if somebody in the first three rows, four rows stands up, then generally the whole place will go up. So I was always just like, why don't we just plant someone in the third row?

I'll just go outside and just like pay someone. I'll buy those two seats for the whole run and I will pay those two people to stand up and then guaranteed, like... You better believe we're getting a standing ovation every show. You best believe. Don't worry about it.

Don't worry about it. Or I thought, like, maybe I could put, like, a notice on the back of each chair in the first few rows and just be like, please stand up. Please stand up. I stood up for you and I'd do it again. Great.

Should we go to a break? Oh, right. Yeah, okay. We can go to a break if you want, babe. What have you on? Yeah, I think we should have a break oh right uh yeah okay we'll go to a break if you want babe have you won yeah i think we should have a break sure let's do it i um had an english friend over last week we were writing and we got into a lift i went to go and buy a guitar last week and the guitar shop was on the fifth We were writing and we got into a lift. I went to go and buy a guitar last week. And the guitar shop was on the fifth floor of the building.

We got in the lift and he looked at the, you know, the buttons on the lift with much confusion. And he was like, I don't understand because there's no G for ground here in America. One is ground floor. No. Yes. So what's first floor two so always one behind yeah it's completely mental i don't understand it as a concept it's like relentlessly positive maybe it's that thing of like that we talked about in one of our first shows where it's like you know you talk about something and people are just like encouraging maybe that like applies to what you think that

ground floor feels negative well just like starting at nothing right like zero we're at zero whereas in american you're already one you start one start from one yeah we're already there, babe. Don't worry. It's very American. Start from the bottom. You start from one. Makes sense. So then it caught me thinking about, you know, things that are different in America and England. And the other thing I was thinking. You tell me that was that was meant to be like the main basis of this podcast when we first started. So let's go back to that yeah let's talk about the differences grid systems the streets right are like designed here in a grid so everything is like measured in blocks so you say like you know or something's like five blocks from here that

doesn't mean that it's five blocks in one direction it can mean like two blocks straight three blocks left that's five blocks right it cool. It's actually like easier to get around. It seems logical. Logical. It's well designed. As opposed to, where are you going? The Romans didn't know what the fuck they were doing. It's all about the grid system.

Well, the thing is though, you're going to Wells Street in E5 is a riddle, to be honest, if you've just got somewhere. I think Americans find it really confusing as well. We'll just build this over here, a little wiggly road, some cobbles. Ye olde. Like, well, yeah, it's kind of mental. A little wiggly road down here. I mean, I love it.

I do love that about our city. But there is no reasoning. I think Americans do live in the land of logic, but they also live in the land of modernity in the way that we don't. When we were in Texas,

they were like, this building is so old. It's like 1940s. And I was like, oh, bless you. That's an old thing. It's very sweet. The other thing that they do here

is they speak in direction. So like quite often, I'll be going to meet David my husband somewhere and he'll be like uh where are you and I'm like I'm at Broadway Lafayette station he's like on the south side of the north side and I'm like what do you think I'm carrying a fucking compass with me like I don't understand hang on let me get my sun dial out shall I like what are you talking about I don't know what direction I'm in. Why would that be? Why does he need to know?

Because that's how they figure out their way around. So it would be like, you know, you'll get off of a train station and it'll be like, you know, 49th street, West side, 49th street,

South side, North side, you know, everything's in, in directions, like on a compass. Anyway, the other thing that we don't do in London,

but we do do in New York is eat pizza by the slice. Can you give me a reason as to why that doesn't happen? No. And me and mum were talking about it the other day. What is wrong with everyone? Everyone that owns a pizza place, just do it by the slice. Because hang on, my parents work in hospitality. I'm not just pulling this out of my ass. You would sell more pizza. Absolutely. And you would be one of a kind because no one does it here. But also the point has been proven that it's really successful in other places. So one slice pizza. Voodoo Rays in Dalston used to do that. Get your shit together, London. Why is pizza in a slice so much better? Well, I never finish a pizza and a slice you always want more.

There you go. There you go. That's probably it. You're welcome, Pizza Express. Yeah. One last thing that Americans do that English people don't is pronounce Craig,

Craig. And as English people, I think we all only found that out when Craigslist came out and it was like, isn't it Craig? And also Graham. Graham is Graham. Graham. Graham. Graham. only found that out when craigslist came out and it was like isn't it craig and also graham graham is gram gram gram graham gram and also it's like no explanation is given however whenever like an american has to look at an irish name like siobhan or saoirse like every chat show that

saoirse what's her face goes on they're always like, tell me exactly, how do you say your name? It's like, why don't we talk about Graham? Or Craig? Or Sayopan? So how do you say your name, Siobhan? For a time, I did not know that Siobhan was Siobhan. For a time, I did not know that. You did not?

No way. Nikita. I was reading this book. You thought Siobhan was Siobhan? For a time, but luckily I was only reading a book, so it was only me and my head that was saying it and then oh yeah no I've done I've done that I did that with the word ocean okian for years in my head I could not get read the word ocean as ocean it was always okian primary school right yeah yeah cool. I thought this was a recent issue. Like, Jesus Christ. And also epitome, epitome.

No. Yeah. No. Yes. I do have one more. What is it? It's, no, not Machiavellian. I've always known how to say Machiavellian.

Good for you. That's a toffee. It is a toffee. I think I said it once and it really impressed someone. I was like, that's a good one. Keep that in my armour. Quite Machiavellian of you. But no, I need to talk about not Machiavellian,

but I want to talk about men. Must we? See, that reaction says everything about my notes today. Family friend Jordan Stevens, he was in a band called Rizzle Kicks when he was a teenager. He's done just so many different things since, but he's always been a writer. But this is his first memoir. And it's called Avoidance, Drugs, Heartbreak and Dogs. ADHD. Which I also did not clock until someone showed it. It's really interesting. Lil, you'd love it.

He basically talks about a particular period of time, literally about six months in his life. did not clock until someone showed it it's really interesting he's little you'd love it he basically talks about a particular period of time literally about six months in his life and he's changed everyone's names to the point where there was one chick i was like is this me is this me i tell you the story but i was like hmm she's called j. And he said, I kind of got the impression that Jerry liked it when I slept with her mates. And I was like, hmm, that's me. Because I used to always hook him up with my friends. Just because he's so handsome and fantastic.

So he's such a great guy to go, by the way, this is Jordan. And everyone fancied him. I don't know why he'd call you Jerry, though. That would be not the name that I gave to you. I guess it's as far from Makita as possible. It's not going to call me Melissa or like anything close to Makita. I thought Cherry was pretty good. I had no idea it was me.

I know somebody that got renamed in a book called Pam. Someone that we know who was referenced in a book, but they changed her name to pam that was the thing that she found the most offensive about what a sly thing imagine if i wrote a book about us and i called you like pam you're like carol i see right through you i see right through you by the way babe but no i'm jerry in this but anyway it's not about me okay'm Jerry in this book. Anyway, it's not about me. This is very much about Jordan, this book. But he talks about a period of time. I won't tell the story because I genuinely would love everyone to read it.

But what he talks about is men having space to be masculine, but also men having space to be feminine. And what do you think about the masculine side of you and the feminine side of you? Do you think about that ever? Because I thought my masculine side was like my drive and my ambition. I was like, well, why isn't that the feminine side of you do you think about that ever because I thought my masculine side was like my drive and my ambition I was like well why isn't that my feminine side no I don't misgender my emotions okay is that what I'm doing um I don't know I don't know if

I gender certain parts of my personality as being masculine or feminine but I do think you know part of the problem with the patriarchy is men not being able to discuss things or look at things from a certain standpoint um I quite often get into like heated arguments with David because I'll talk to him about something that I see is like being misogynistic or you know patriarchal kind of construct and his knee-jerk reaction is defense and I'm just like you know that this is wrong so why can't we just have a conversation where you like the starting point of the conversation is like you're right that is out of order but we did have a big argument the other day and then i texted because we get into arguments about the patriarchy quite a lot uh yeah we do usually if we're in a different time zone and i've just woken up and i'm a little little bit grumped. Well, you get straight onto the patriarchy.

No, but we'll talk about something or he'll mention something and I'll always relate it to misogyny. So he'll say, like, you know, I was talking to so-and-so and we said this and I was like, well, interesting you didn't pull him up on that. He'll be like, what? And we're like, well, it just seems like really misogynistic of him and it seemed like a good opportunity for you to, like, say something when you didn't, so you're a misogynist i haven't even had coffee yet can you just fuck off

he said he was really happy on sunday because i texted him and i said i'm really sorry if i was grumpy this morning i'm very tired and the patriarchy isn't your fault oh and then i followed it up with all your fault. Some of it is. Some of it is your fault. Just a little bit. Some of it is. On that note, shall we say goodbye

and see you next week? Yeah. I think I've exposed myself enough and been vulnerable enough today. But yeah, you're not sick of me then. No. I genuinely thought, oh gosh, she's sick of me.

Podcast, FaceTime. She's sick of the sight of me. No, I'm not sick of the then? No. I genuinely thought oh gosh, she's sick of me. Podcast, FaceTime, sick of the sight of me. No, I'm not sick of the sight of you. Just busy. Just busy. Thanks for listening to Miss Me with Lily Allen and Makita Oliver. This is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds. This cultural life from BBC Radio 4.

Leading artists discuss their creative influences and experiences. Some girl showed it to us tattooed on her arm. And I was like, oh my God, no. Stop tattooing yourselves, guys. With great comedy, I think you have to look for the soul. I felt very invisible in childhood, and so I think in adulthood I was always trying to prove my worth. I felt very invisible in childhood, and so I think in adulthood I was always trying to prove my worth. I'm John Wilson, and my guests include Lily Allen, Andrew Scott, Zadie Smith, and many more. Listen to This Cultural Life on BBC Sounds. Canada's fastest and most reliable internet. Perfect for streaming lectures all day or binging TV shows all night.

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