Miss Me? - We May Destroy the BBC

Episode Date: October 1, 2026

Look, relationships are complicated. Yes, we had a thing with the BBC, then we left the BBC, but we never stopped loving the BBC. Miquita and Jordan get into the implications for TV culture with this latest round of BBC cuts. They also talk about why reading is the most dangerous thing you can do right now, and share what it was like to help reveal the Booker Prize shortlist (Miquita) and be the new face of Dr. Marten’s alongside Chloë Sevigny (Jordan).Get bonus content and recommendations for things to watch or read or listen to from the Miss Me? Library every Friday at patreon.com/missmeFollow the show on instagram and TikTok @missme.4evaYou can contact Miss Me? on email at [e-mail] Presented by: Miquita Oliver and Jordan StephensProducer: Natalie JamiesonTechnical Producer: Oliver Geraghty Assistant Producer: Katie BuxtonVideo Editor: Danny PapeProduction Coordinator: Tom JacksonExecutive Producers: Sam MichellMiss Me? is a Persephonica show Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

How many, like, WhatsApp groups you're part of? I'd say about 10. Dude, does it stress you out? How many? Exactly, next question. How many stress me out? Six. Do you mute any of them?

No, because we've got to work. You've muted the Miss Me WhatsApp, is what you've just said. No, I can't. I can't. You literally have just admitted to it. It won't mute. On my two weeks off, I tried to mute it. What do you think muting is?

Usually it should not, it should not make you aware of notifications. And it still did. Muting just means that you don't get, your phone doesn't physically show you that something, but when you go on WhatsApp, you see there's messages. But that's too stressful because I'm always on WhatsApp. That's, but what do you mean? So you just wanted to block the group. Yeah, no, I deleted it. That's where I exited. I exited. And then when I came back to work, I was like, Nat, can you let me back in?

That is mental. I needed a break. It's intense our WhatsApp group. Get a burner or something. Yeah, I should have got a burner from a break. Hello everyone, welcome to Miss Me, week... What? Week 1598. Miquita, I've told you this before.

This isn't a long-running podcast by podcast standards. Come on, we've done some good innings, surely. It's not like we've been doing for three months. Yeah. So much going on this week. From Jordan's Dr. Martin's campaign to the BBC, I mean, where shall we begin? We should probably remind everyone that we are on YouTube. Miss Me is on YouTube.

Miss Me is also on Instagram where it's always been. And it's on TikTok, isn't it? Yeah, I actually just remembered. I've got a sent... Jordan mostly runs that side. I don't run that side, but I did forget to send a very important email that I've just remembered about TikTok. We also have a Patreon and we have a Miss Me library, filling it with all of the stuff that means so much to us. Well, we're going to do all types of stuff on Patreon, but you'll only know if you do it.

And also, if you guys are wondering, why, why is it that these guys are... asking about Patreon, it's because the BBC don't pay us anymore. What more do I have to tell you? Jordan, that's a secret. This is, we're sponsorship and community based now, right? And that means that we can talk about fun things. And also, like, we have more power and control, right? It's a little thing we like to call freedom, but freedom costs.

I just, I hope people know. Most people know. Most people know. I'm just confirming it. We're trying to build a community, community, you know, power in numbers. It literally is that. I don't find it, like, stressful building a community. I was brought up by a community.

The word community has always meant something very real and tangible to me. So for me to transfer it to the internet, it's fine by me. I love that word. It always makes me feel very like warm and safe community. It's amazing that you have such a busy life full of so many things. And we've both had very busy weeks. I was doing the Booker Prize. And Jordan...

What you're doing the Booker Prize? Please explain. I was reading an extract from one of the shortlisted books. Love that. the announcement of the Booker Prize shortlist. Oh yeah, it was a fucking great day. Bit of you that. It was so a bit of me.

And then Jordan was launching his worldwide campaign with Dr. Martin. Thank you very much. I don't know how you do all these things when you are in a place of, I guess you're so used to the way your mind works that you probably don't find it chaotic. Listen, the Dr. Martin's thing, from the jump, yeah, I actually couldn't believe it. It was, it was, I got a shout out of my friend, yeah. as this is one of these incredible moments in life where it was a very organic thing in that. Firstly, I fuck a Dr. Martin's legitimately, which is great.

Like I have, I'd already, I'd already. Well, yeah, because, you know, man, I'm really trying to move past the kind of soulless, like, thing to stay alive. Soless, very good. With bouncing souls is the campaign. But like, basically, I have a friend, she's, she has been at Dr. Martin's for a while. And, yeah, she on some random Thursday or something, she just sent me a, text being like, if some mental text, like, do you reckon you'd be into doing a global Dr. Martin's campaign? And I was like, yeah, probably. And then, and I didn't think it would happen. And then it

did. And basically, what I'm saying is for the launch, what was so beautiful was, when you say I'm doing all these different things, yes, because we're mates, she has seen all the different things I'm doing. And then she actualised them in the Dr. Martin store. And they're running, these activations are running all this week. So in the store, there's. There's a pop-up bookshop, Lala Books, which is like, curated by me and Lala. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the books reflecting the themes of the campaign.

I had Steve's factory upstairs. We were just like playing tunes and just like having a laugh, put on a couple of, like those couple rappers. Then there was like a poetry thing, adult entertainment, which is run by James Messiah. Like adult entertainment is dope because it's one of like, it's like what's really dope cult following and you see amazing poets there. And like, there's also sessions with various experts,

creative clinics. that's what it is so substack writers uh like there's a designer zine making there's like which is quite cool and DIY collage making so it's like but it was so weird because it really what did feel like an expression of all the things i love um in this store and everyone was just really sound and uh and it was great one other beautiful moment and i really want to shout this moment out because this is like this is like just everything in the night was kind of perfect like there's caribbean food that was like Everything was a vibe. Everyone was really happy.

At the end of the night, there was this guy. So there was a few people I didn't know, right? A lot of people I did know. But, you know, as it goes to these events, sometimes you just go to an event. And there's this beautiful moment. Right at the end of the night, I'm just getting my stuff ready to leave.

I'm with Kane. And this guy's like, hey, man, what do you do? And I was like, I did this. I just pointed at like a poster with me on the wall. I was like, this is my launch. He's like, oh, cool, man. Dude, I'm so sorry. I was like, I don't even care.

I actually, I literally don't care. I find that really funny. This dude has rocked up to this doctor. He's obviously got the email. He's probably got TikTok following. You know what I mean? He's rolled on just. Brother, record the video and tag the brand and me and we're good.

Like, and just keep it moving. Keep it fucking moving. It was so good. Have you seen my campaign? You're talking about the Nivio, man. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

The campaign that I called you and said, I'm really worried about this. Why are you worried about it? Just because it's so naughty's. And it's like really based on like my naughty's heyday era, which I, you know, have an uncomfortable relationship with. But it's been a real hit. And I think one of the reasons it's been a real hit is because people think that I'm doing a new TV show. Maybe a new T4 show, no less.

I think they think T4's coming back. Wait. You are doing it. a TV show. It's fucking advertorial, bro. You've done me. No, it's like an episodic advert that you can watch on like Channel 4's YouTube, but like

it's not a TV show. You have done me, bro. I know. We've convinced everyone. They were like, can't wait to watch. Can't wait. Yay. Bring back T4. I was like, no, no, no, no. No, no. Channel 4. If only they had the power to bring back T4. That's not actually happening.

I'm not actually doing a TV show where I take three Gen Zs back to the Nauties. That was just a nivier campaign with Channel 4. It's just a little one-off thing. Pitch it. Yeah, I know. Now I'm like maybe I should fucking try and get that commissioned. Do some TV.

You felt like you were in your element. That's so mad. I literally told like four people you had a new show on Channel 4. No. We were doing like Jordan. Do you remember like when you do links to camera and then they do like whip pan off? It's very like early naughty's TV. It's good.

People want that. And now, do, da, da, da. And then the camera goes, I was like, God, I actually feel like I'm back on T4. It was kind of crazy. Nauties is in. Noise is in and TV is out. Noises in and TV is out.

Maybe my new Genzi back to the naughty show can save television because it is fucked. And not only just television, the people that I see is, you know, the bastions of television, the people holding television together. The people trying to keep this country alive. The BBC. The BBC have never been more fucked.

And it is actually really, really sad and devastating. They are cutting things left, right and centre. They've got 500 million pounds to make. And 90% of the people watching the BBC, only 80% pay for it. But you know what they are doing? What are they doing? They're probably making another period drama. Oh, God, yeah.

They've got that. They've got five of those. Yeah, they just can't not make, they just... Well, we talked about this in our chat earlier in the week when we're figuring out how we want to talk about this. And we did talk about the things that you love on the BBC. say a few of those things. BBC have made some good commissions recently.

They did a film club thing with Amy Lou Wood, which is good. Obviously, Flea Bag, iconic. That was through BBC 3, which is being cut. I think BBC 3 is going. I think that's... But it ended up being the BBC 2. They did do... I may destroy you?

Yeah. The BBC commissioning, I may destroy you. It shouldn't be risky, but it was. It's a young, black writer. Was that risky? Wait, that wasn't risky. Yeah, because it was about, you know, sexual violence. and it was honest and raw and real.

Yeah, I want to agree with you, but she had literally turned down like a multi-million deal at Netflix. That would have been unbelievably bad commissioning. No, that came after, I May Destroy You. She blew up off Chewing Gum. Yeah, Channel 4. And then she did a big BBC show

where she was acting in it, right? And then she did that film that I was actually in for like 20 seconds. I don't remember this. I remember it being Chewing Gum One Woman Play. at Edinburgh Festival, gets commissioned by Channel 4, then it's a series on E4. And then she goes, takes a break and then does I May Destroy You? I can't remember all this other stuff.

Sorry, Michaela Cole. Michaela turned down Netflix's $1 million offer for I May Destroy You. Okay, so she was going to put that in particular there. Cole took the project to the BBC, which gave her full creative control and copyright ownership, which wasn't being offered by Netflix. Thank you for giving me that timeline. So that makes more sense. But there you go, right?

That's a moment where someone goes, I'm going to the BBC because they're going to give me more creative control. I have to say, when we started miss me, the reason we went to the BBC is because they're the ones that said do it how you want. Every other place was like, no, it should be like this, it should be like that. So at those times, the BBC sings. It sings a lullaby of a commitment to culture and I'm fucking here for it. And you know that I have been a BBC advocate. I'm very, I was very honored to, anytime I work on the BBC, I'm very honored to be working there. You have a very different relationship with them. But I think we can agree that the dismantling of the BBC is an extremely upsetting thing for this country.

And I'm not happy to see it happening. Yeah, no, listen, I get that. Look, it is the we have lost, we continue to lose grip of, let's say, like nationally or communally funded things. The cool thing about the BBC is there's no adverts, you know, it has incentive to prop up UK talent. Yeah.

And which I do think it has done, more so than other channels which is good but it's just like there's a multitude of things firstly it's adapt or die right now man which is like which is savage but the internet is a mammoth beast big tech have loads of power

BBC's like of course impartiality desire consistent impartiality desire right which because there would be non-partisan which is like sure that was a thing but like now with the interweb

of constant information like that is even that as a concept is being challenged and also people are asking I mean isn't this the fucking topic of the day you know like is there a point of which being non-partisan is in of itself partisan And that's something that you and I came up against when we were at the BBC

or miss me was at the BBC it's that there are some things you just can't fucking be impartial about But when you do that then other people will pick up where you left off you know what I mean like Gary gets fired off the BBC and then he goes to IT and then and then with it

Well and goalhanger Yeah yeah No, but on telly. Like, he was the only, he was the first person. They've really used that. Like, he won presenter of the year for, like, which, like, broke, like, a 15-year run of Anton Decc or some mad shit. I don't fucking know.

Anyway, fuck all that shit. But I'm just saying that, like, it's just interesting. But I do, I don't want a BBC to die. I know, of course. No one wants the BBC to die. And I am in a family. I'm in a family where the BBC are very important to our life. Like, my mum is on a cooking show, one of the biggest cooking shows on the BBC.

and has been for seven years and I hosted Miss Me on the BBC for two years. Like, it's part of our lives, like not just in terms of what we watch. It's part of the infrastructure of me and mum's life. And we go into the BBC a lot to have meetings to talk about doing work with them. And there is a general incentive

to make things identicate to the things that they see as very safe and very popular, i.e. the traitors. And not everything can be the traitors or should be. Love the traitors. I just think where... Great commission. Thank you, Jordan.

But the traitors was a risk as well. The traitors was actually very hard to get off the ground. The BBC didn't want to commission it. And essentially it's just a... Isn't traitors just a rip-off of that 80s party game Mafia? No, I mean, there's another game called Among Us. I mean, it's just a... It's just a...

It's just a... It's just a thing, in it? But anyway, it's just a vibe. It's scaring me, it's making me upset. And I wonder what they will do. And I wonder what there is to do. Apart from sort of, like in The Guardian, it was saying like, get ready, they need to prepare for the doom spiral of cuts and lack of public support.

I will always support them. I will always support them and I want the best for the BBC. And I think that when they're at their best, they're great for this country. The BBC serve us when they serve us well. I think British television generally has a responsibility to the public to like put on dope shows. I think one of the worst responses to cuts is trying to be safe. That's the worst thing that comes with cuts. It's like there's less money.

So now they go, well, we need guarantees. You know? When I was getting my shit developed, they were like, how do we know the audience is going to like this character? I was like, you don't. That's literally the point of storytelling. You don't. Welcome to television.

Seriously, when things get like that, it just makes me want to run and hide. It's been getting like that for years and years, Mickey. like honestly like like seven eight years like it's why do you think comes why do you think I want to sell skipping ropes I can't I think it's kind of mad to feel like there's absolutely no ability within I think I think it's also okay for us to ask and push for that like for example take it like this right like when I say adapt or die one of the biggest shifts in British TV like legacy was adolescence sweeping awards right because that was that was that was net that

was net yeah but like aside from whatever you think of the show and the actors or whatever Netflix commissioned a British TV show written by Jack Thorne yeah and the whole thing was put together the whole adolescence project was put together by Hannah Walters and Stephen Graham Hannah Walters being his wife and their production company and that would have started as a very small idea and look what it did and then you have a lot of baby reindeer like the fact that the stream is on the basis they have loads of money they're the ones taking risks on on on on on British television. Like, that is just something that you have to look at, think about, and adjust accordingly,

you know? Yeah. If you ask someone to pay for a license, you have to give them a reason to pay for it. And I know that's really tough. That's tough. And I think they're probably trying their best. I don't actually think they're not trying their best. I think they really are trying their best.

But it's a very, very swiftly moving market. No, don't worry. My Netflix journey is starting pretty soon. I have a meeting with them actually coming up about something that I've had in development for a minute. And the worst thing is it has BBC written all over it, but I just wouldn't go there right now. Also, can I just say,

cuts don't always mean you can't do shit. Like, I watched that film last night, that obsession. You heard about obsession? No. It's a horror film that has just gone crazy, right? Because it was terrifying. Mekita, obsession was made for 750,000, and it grossed over 500 million.

Yeah, that's what you do in the face of cuts. That's insane. That's what you do in the face of challenge. It's true. It's a challenge. The BBC should just step up. It's a really good example. of how to use a budget well, I guess.

That's less than some people have spent on music videos, just to put it into perspective. Yes. The point is, we now in cinema are seeing what needs to happen in television, right? Where in cinema, indie cinema's growth is insane. 824 are keeping cinema popping. Anora wins all the awards, low budget film by cinema standards, right? Like, because it's all about having a good idea and executing that idea well.

So there is also a challenge that you can rise to, right? that one of my favorite quotes the absence of limitation is the enemy of all art if you have a limited budget give it to somebody creative and see what the fuck they do with it that's exciting invest in someone's capacity to work with a small budget

don't just think because you've got a smaller budget you can't make anything it's quite a lot to hold having an opinion isn't it yeah darling you have really been through the ringer this week I feel like with the internet yeah so me talking last week I felt I gave quite a balanced version or my take on events that included a friend of mine

and the right, I'd say the right wing press, the Sun, Daily Mail, DVD News, all that kind of stuff, couple of people who are known for just like clickbait, fanning flames, energy on X. I don't have X, by the way. I don't have what was formerly Twitter because I just, I'm not interested. I think it's kind of a bit of a mad place. I was showing some of the things that was said. And all I want to say is this. I want people to make sure that when they see the way that right wing press spin I spoke about 26 minutes about the whole issue. I think it gave detail, I gave context. You know, I wasn't perfect in everything I said. I mean, there's some things I probably could have said a little softer perhaps,

but ultimately what I was speaking was definitely my truth and I'm impassioned about the topic and whatever else. But what's really interesting to me is that a lot of people that are opposing or haven't even listened to what I'd said are running with this idea that it means that I'm a bad friend, for challenging something that I think that my friend's done because it is in the interest of right-leaning papers to make people think that it's more important to be loyal to your friends than join a mob, right? And I want to be clear about something.

I'm not part of a mob. The class of silence that happens in public, with people with public profiles who are public facing, right? They all have these vows of silence. If there's things that they don't agree with, value-wise, somehow it's unacceptable just to challenge those things. That doesn't undermine friendship. I think that's loving.

I think it's loving to challenge friends, right? Like, especially when you make it very clear that it doesn't affect the friendship. So don't allow for papers to make you think that challenging somebody in their opinion or their values is antithetical to friendship. It's actually really loving. It's interesting because I think it mirrors a lot of friendships

and relationships in the world has happened in my family deeply, deeply. and I think it was really important for you to mirror that and what you were saying, this isn't about two famous people having a barney. But also conceptually, like, it is okay to challenge your friends or family or whoever.

It's actually imperative that you do it. That's what I'm saying. Like, these lot are talking about anti-Snowflake freedom of speech. This whole entire conversation is based on the silencing of a performer and then further, and then past that point, you're going,

oh, but I mean, don't challenge someone's, challenge someone's action. Like what, whoa, whoa, no, bro. I expect, I expect that by the way from people, my friends. And for context, right, I'm, I'm pretty thin-skinned. When my friends call me out on something, it rattles me to my core. I'm like, oh my God, everyone hates me. I've done I'm the worst person. And then I have to just sit in the reality that like this is actually an opportunity for me to grow. Those are all of my insecurities. These people haven't left me.

They've just challenged me. And I'm an adult. We're adults, right? So you feel that freak out. you work through it. You don't learn from, you don't go through life learning from constant success. You learn from failure. Totally. Don't make me quote Tina Turner. Well, that is, no, but that's literally it. This is an opportunity for growth, right? Exactly. Challenges, obstacles, confrontation. This is how we grow. This is how we become better, more evolved human beings.

Quite literally. That is the truth. Tina Turner and lethal Bizzle, right? Every time I get a win, it's a blessing. Every time I get a loss, it's a lesson. Shout out, Bizzle. Right. That's the world, man. And we got to firm up. Like, let's not treat people in our lives like infants.

Let's treat them like the adults that they are and recognize their right to reply and their right to grow. That's it. Beautiful. Thank you, Jordan, because I fucking hate being infantilized. So what's going on with a Booker Prize then?

Oh, my God, Jordan. It was so scary. What the fuck? I don't understand why I was so nervous. Like, get a grip. But I think it's just, I think I felt out of my depth. Why?

Because I'm not an actor And it was quite clear When I got there Oh the readings I wasn't there to just do a reading I sort of read it in dress rehearsal Like like you know Kind of presentery I suppose

Yeah but you got a nice voice That's what you need No no you need to perform this I was like oh Slater I mean I got off lightly Because the Booker Prize is amazing I did a little bit of research

Into how long it's been going It's actually from since 1969 You're not ready You know it's not called Booker because it's books. The guy that started, the guy that put the money behind it, his first name was Booker.

I would have assumed that. I thought it was because it was books. I thought it was like, Booksy. He was cool, what was he called? Booker McConnell. I mean, listen,

to be fair to you, it's a big coincidence. It's like you saying Bolt. It is a coincidence that he was quite booky and his name was Booker. Yeah. Unfortunately,

his ancestors were plantation owners. But I'm sure they loved a cozy read after the brutalisation of their workers and that passed down to Booker McConnell which is great. So he's the money guy. He's the namesake and the money guy

and then there were these other publishers called Tom Mashelah and Graham Green. And I'm not sure if it's the Graham Green. Is that the guy who wrote Brighton Rock? Yeah. That's my granddad's film. These people are all like kind of cool, arty, literary gang in the 60s. They're also hanging out with

who wrote Bond? Fleming. Fleming. Ian Fleming. This is the gang. start the Booker, right? It evolved from a small British initiative into a global phenomenon that can instantly transform an author's career. So it's been really powerful for a really long time.

Oh, man, I'd love to win the fucking Booker Prize. But you know, only in 2014. So it's always rewarded and celebrated works of fiction written in English and published in the UK and Ireland, regardless of the author's nationality. But then in 2014, they changed the rules to any full-length novel written originally in English and published in the UK Ireland.

All right. So I'm not even eligible, Dan. So you're not even eligible? I've got some fun for you. This is a McKitt thing. So in terms of your confusion around Booker Prize being by a man named Booker, the people, if your name matches your profession,

it's called an aptonym. And there's a scientific theory that people are drawn to jobs fitting their name, and that's called nomative determinism, right? And an example of these people, which is fantastic, Yeah. Usain Bolt. Sure.

Amy Fries, a television meteorologist, whose last name, obviously. Sarah Blizzard, another meteorologist. Weather girl. Russell Brain, a neurologist. No way. I gore judge, a former Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales. And of course, the one and only man who invented a sanitary engineer and plumber, made the toilet, Thomas Crapper.

No way. No way. Yeah. I didn't know Thomas Scrapper was the name of the man who invented the toilet. That's interesting, isn't it? Even if your thing to do in this world is to invent the toilet, your name is leading you there. There's a philosophical theory. I feel like that kind of plays in.

Doesn't it happen in some indigenous cultures? They're like, will give someone a name based off where their path might send them? Of course. Yeah, that's kind of cool. Of course. It's actually very spiritual. I just wish my name was like, McKitaster. That's me trying to put broadcaster in my name.

Oh, I thought you wanted to be on Taskmaster or something. No, I really don't. It should be. That would be really funny. This is more me. Fuck Taskmasker. I'm the Booker. So this event used to be private, this kind of announcement of the Booker shortlist, and they've decided to make it a public thing.

And so I thought it would be kind of small, but it was fucking Queen Elizabeth Hall on the South Bank. and it was totally packed and the judges were a mixture of poets and authors and musicians and classicists. We have Mary Beard, Jarvis Cocker, this incredible poet called Raymond.

You'd like him. Do you know him actually? Raymond Antrobus. Yeah, of course right. Oh, I've never met him or heard of him, dude. He's been on the scene, bro. He's on a poetry scene, bro. You don't know about the poetry scene.

He totally has that energy. He was wearing like a fuzzy jumper and DMs. I was like, I get it, Raymond. Then we also had Jarvis Cocker, Rebecca Lou, and then Booker Prize shortlisted novelist poet and SES, Patricia Lockwood. She was great. So it was just quite an intimidating crowd, Jordan,

and I was shaking. Intimidating, why? Is it because you don't feel like you belong there because you didn't go school properly? Yeah. Yeah. I don't feel booky enough. I think you are.

You just got to read. Well, they wanted me to read, because the books that were shortlisted, you know, this is out of 163 books. That's what these judges had to do. And they only got these books in fucking December. Yeah, yeah. Some people fucking love reading.

It's 163 books in what? Like 10 months. 16 books a month. So a book every two days. So a book every two days? They probably read multiple at the same time. It's not like a book for two days and then a break. And then you read another book in two days.

It's like every two days you've got to start. And it's a lot. I don't know if this is okay for me to say, but I have a inkling that I know what's, Some people do. Audio book. No, not audio book. I have been on a panel before and I had to read many books and I had to judge these books, right?

I think what people do is they read the beginning of all of the books and then past a certain point they'll read a book. And then if they have a book that they're like, whoa, that shit blew my mind. That's then the metric for the following books. So I think they'll actually sacrifice. Jordan, that is unbelievable. You can't say that. They all read the books. They have to.

They're committed. They give a shit. That's how it goes. That's how it works. I did an off-grid challenge once where I put my phone in a box and I live, I was in the cabin for three days and I read three and a half books. I can't explain to you how much the phone pulls. I remember going for dog walks and coming back and being so excited to carry on the book.

And I'm someone who struggles to read. I don't struggle to read anymore. But at that point, I struggled to read. Yeah. Three, I've read a book a day, Wikita. No, it is beautiful. That's what we were saying when I was with the people I was working with yesterday and I was talking about the Booker Prize

and I was like, you basically just have to leave your phone alone because even 10 minutes that leads to 20, then you're fucked. Finito. Well, Mary Beard said something great about reading, which I loved and we're going to play the clip of it because she'll say it better than I can. Reading is more essential to humanity now than just saying, oh, I really love it.

And some of these books are not, I think, going to make you feel better. They're going to make you see the world differently. That's not about love. Mary Beard, when I'm older. The reason it resonated with me is because I think there's so much in life that we just align to immediate pleasure and immediate gratification. It's like sometimes it takes a while for a book to give you what it's actually going to give you.

And actually, I read so many things. I don't just read books. I mean, I do read books, but I also don't just read novels. I also read books about Scottish walks. I read books about Buddhism. I read supplements. I read poetry. I read children's books.

I mean, I never stop reading. And it gives me so much. But I don't know everything it gives me immediately. And that's part of the fucking beauty of reading. It's not like an Instagram clip where you're like, yay, oh, that felt good. Oh, I'm empty. It's expansive. And also, I want to keep shouting about this because, like, I don't know,

I really feel like it's important. I've always struggled with reading, right? When I was younger, I was obsessed with his dark materials. And it left such a profound effect on me. It was my first experience of tragedy of, you know, of love, of like, I was up with my little reading lights or like three in the morning. I was just engrossed. And I really struggled to read other books after that.

I remember trying to read like the reluctant fundamentalist, I think when I was like a bit older and it took me ages. Life of Pie was great because I'd show. shorter chapters and it's quite good for my attention span. But like I really, really struggled, struggled. And then I think, especially for boys, because boys struggle to read more than girls do. And men read less fiction, like dramatically less. They mainly read like autobiographies, right? Or like nonfiction because they, there's this idea that like fiction isn't rooted in any truth. So it's like pointless when it's actually rooted in so much truth because as Mary Bidd is

indicating, you know, in reading a story told by a person with an experience, you're opening up your eyes to parts of the world experiences that you wouldn't have otherwise known about, right? And that's why, like I said, I've said before, for men, my advice, if you want to have more success engaging with women is read things written by women because then you'll have more to talk about. And I would say in reverse, you know, if I was for balance, you know, I think if a woman was having a tough time understanding men, read more. But the other funny thing about that is men, we don't typically seem to write about like our interior lives. So it's actually harder for women to understand what's happening within us, which is a lot. Which is a funny thing.

why I'm trying to write more. But anyway, that's a whole other thing. But what I want to say is that what upsets me is this idea that books become chores for a lot of people because reading is required in school, right? But I can't emphasize this enough. And I know that there's some moms who mess me and their kids are listening to that. And this is an important one, especially if it's a boy, or if you're just a guy listening. Like, the reason why books are important is simply because having that extra knowledge is super powerful. And the reason why I know it's powerful is because they are banning books. And in 2026, they're still banning books. I know. It's fucking terrifying. Like, if you just think that books are like an old format,

an old media that's just, that's just expiring, then why are these governments, why are governments that are moving towards fascism, or if many believe are engaging in at least fleeting moments of it, or continuous? Like, why is that part of the thing? To prevent people from learning. And by the way, that format can come over here. That don't, that make no question. Just just in terms of the importance. And if boys think that like, you know, it's cooler to do something else because something else is scary or dangerous. Brother, I'm telling you right now, the most dangerous thing you could do right now is pick up a book and read. I would take gender out of it. It's the most important thing all of us can do. And it's so

funny, isn't it? You're so right that even to this day, that is what they get rid of first. Because it's terrifying. It's terrifying. It's terrifying. Terrifying what that kind of knowledge can do to a human being. It obviously goes for everybody, but it keeps honestly, the statistics are crazy. Like, women and girls read way more than boys and men. But it's important to say, it's important to say that that, that, that banning of books, right, including, I mean, I know a guy called Jason Reynolds, who's like an amazing kids book author. And he gets banned all the time. I interviewed him the other day. And it's banned for, because they're just, they're just stories that are like, just slightly off, off the beat and track that.

a country one, you know, look, the reality is countries that want people to think a certain way, they try and force you to, you know, want to brainwash you into one singular way of thinking. And a real powerful way of stepping outside of one singular way of thinking is to read other ways of thinking. And that format can come over here. So people should be very, very aware of the fact that if we are to move towards a government that is deciding that it wants to control narratives, be careful because they'll try and ban books in this country. Yeah. Isn't it funny? It's not just powerful to read is empowering. Yeah, yeah.

Isn't it? It's the most... Knowledge is power. It's one of the founding elements of hip-pop, by the way. People forget that, just saying for an out-day knowledge. Knowledge is power! Yeah, it is. It really is. One of the most banned books, most commonly banned books, is the bluest eye by Tony Morrison. Wow. And of course, the Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Outward. Sure. That's crazy.

That's upsetting. That's fucking upsetting. You know, the bluest eye. changed my mom's life sorry. In what sense? Just as like a young black girl in Suffolk in deep, deep, deep, deep racism it fucking freed her. She always says that about that book

and I just, that's just really upset me because I can't imagine. These things, these books do do that. I've had books that have freed me and if that's just taken out of the context of your life and there's no access to it, sorry, that's just really, suddenly just hit me because I know what that book did for my mum. That's powerful, right?

So how to know that, to have that feeling to feel seen reading something, it's like it's a really indescribable feeling. Yeah, to feel like there's a light shone upon you and you feel like you are a monster and you are nothing and you are wrong. Yeah, right. A little book, a very simple thing just tells you that you're okay and that you have a right to exist. Yeah. That book is so important. I just wanted to talk about the books that were shortlisted because they wanted me to read from the Marlon James book The Disappearers which everyone is saying is incredible but they wanted me to speak patois and I was like

can we ask the Jamaican actor to do that and Amari Douglas is his name do you know him he's in It's a Sin brilliant actor great man my new best friend Amari I'm going to call you we're going to the pub I really liked him he was great And the disappearers is deep. It's about these gay men in Jamaica rehearsing for a play and they're attacked and one of them's killed and the other has his eyes gouged out. And it's about this man many years later trying to return, trying to find all the people that were part of it to find peace. Fuck it out.

I read from a book by Rebecca Perry called May We Feed the King, which is sort of about God. grief and whether living in the past and even the historical past, not even your own past, can kind of satiate and comfort your present day. And another incredible actor called Prasana Puvina Rajah, who read from BlackBag, and it was hilarious. He did it so well. It's about an actor taking a job in a university psychology department where he must attend classes. Oh, someone actually recommended that to me. Someone actually recommended that to me.

I said that it was brilliant. The bit that he read, I was creasing. I was on the floor. We need comedies up in here. Yes, and I think it's really important. The reason I'm saying the kind of breadth of work within the shortlist is because it really is varied. And they really make sure that it is. And even though there were two books about grief, the two books I read were about grief.

There's a lot more within the short list. And it was just a beautiful thing to be part of. I was really honored and touched. And thank you, Gabby, the CEO of Booker. What a cool woman. She is running that ship beautifully. She is steering that ship

to beautiful places with fortitude and strength, power and wisdom. I love you, Gabby. So thank you for asking me to be part of it. When I was in year eight, I went for the school play

and it was a show where there was a character in the show that was Jamaican. Patoire was in the play. It was feather boy. I was one of two, Black kids who auditioned,

I think, one of two. And the team, teacher didn't like me because he thought, I don't know what, he thought some other shit. I don't know what people. Too big for your boots. Okay, thank you. No, I don't know what it was, various reasons. And anyway, so I didn't get the part for the black person and a white boy got it. And they didn't change. They did not change the script. He did, he did, he did Patois the whole way through. It was amazing. Do you want to know, do you want to know a punchline to that?

Do you know what it does now? You know, a minstrel show? He's a police officer. That school should be ashamed. I'm sorry. Listen, everyone was racist back then. It's fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, thank God. That's gone away. It's normal, bro. What do you mean? Okay, we will see you for Listen, bitch. The theme is death. Bye. Thanks for listening to Miss Me.

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