Miss Me? - What Your Birth Story Says About You (with Zawe Ashton)

Episode Date: August 20, 2026

Jordan Stephens and Zawe Ashton share everything they know about how they came into the world, the silence and the screams, and the surprising similarities between their birth stories. They talk about how their birth impacted them in adulthood, and whether certain traits can be linked back to those first moments of breathing life. And Zawe shares her two most embarrassingly awful auditions, so if you’ve ever wondered if some stories about acting really are that extreme and awkward then, yep, they are.Get weekly cultural recommendations from the Miss Me? Library every Friday at patreon.com/missmeFollow the show on instagram and TikTok @missme.4evaYou can contact Miss Me? on email at [e-mail] or via WhatsApp on https://wa.me/447849030711Producer: Natalie JamiesonTechnical Producer: Oliver Geraghty Assistant Producer: Katie-Louise BuxtonVideo Editor: Alex BellProduction Coordinator: Tom JacksonExecutive Producers: Ellie Clifford & Dino SofosMiss Me? is a Persephonica show Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello everybody, welcome to Miss Me. This is a great episode already because Zowie, it's such a good. I don't even know what the time would be, Depp or guest or I don't know what. Oh, I thought we were still going with Miss Me Sidepiece or recurring Miss Me character. I love that. Oh my God. Like, yes, sure. I was actually going to open with, it's 7 o'clock.

I'm a da, I'm in my jat, who's in the street. Basically, I feel like when I'm not. I come on miss me. I should do the opening bars of a song about hooking up or being a sidepiece. What song was that? Are we friends? It was Usher. Oh, sorry, yes, infamous lover. Sorry. Sorry, I'm not, R&B is actually not my bag, weirdly. I like the song climax. Yes, so this podcast's over. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know what it is, man. I think it's just, just like too much pressure to be central. I don't need goading into sensuality I need to summon it from something darker like Nirvana

Okay so you're saying I don't like R&B because I am R&B I love that It's too much me and R&B Do I mean? Overloads Like it's too much bro Yeah bro it's like

It's like I'm already in that vibe Like I can't slow it down anymore And I can't like Anyway no there is some R&B I like I think actually the Norties was amazing for R&B because it was pop R&B, like Elya and shit, that's my bag. If you are interested. And I know Asher was about, but, you know, he was...

No, Asher is down there on the list of. Oh, that was when, like, the... What's it? You, you turn or something. Yeah, yeah. But giving up, up. And eat, I would get down with me. Oh, uh, uh, uh, it's not hard to learn. No, that's too far along.

Come on, come on. It's called to you turn. That was my first... That was like, yeah, this guy's sick. He's teaching me how to dance. Oh, my. No, I'm having one of those conversations, okay, where my, I'm like, me and this person at the same age. Yeah.

And then it's suddenly like a little glitch in the matrix. I'm like, are we not the same age? Absolutely not. But you were the same age as Keats? Yeah. Okay, so you're 60. That's cool. Pushing 60, 22, 3.

No. Okay, let's not joke. Let's not joke because it was my birthday the other day. Happy 34th birthday. if we're to conform to the regressive ideas of youth in our society. Exactly. I was like, I'm going to go on there, and I'm going to say it was my birthday, and then I'm going to get a lump in my throat.

No. Saying how old I was. Yeah, because it's ingrained. It's so fucked up. Like, why the shame around saying how many years you've spent living? Very true. And also, things surely get better. Um, in some ways yet.

In some ways. So I haven't actually said, hello, this is Zawi Ashton, obviously. Zawi's here. Hi. Forgot to finish the intro because it's just too natural. It's too organic. I love you Zawi. I think you're great and I'm very happy to be speaking with you.

I'm so passionate about you as a human being. I think you know that. Yeah, but ditto. And I remember the first time, oh my God, wait, did we even say this before? when I interviewed you, Brough, this is where, when you met Loki. Oh, Tom, sorry, Tom, sorry, sorry. No, come on, look, if you've got,

if you've got like an alter ego that's a North God, why not reference yourself as such now and again? You met Loki. I was there where you met Loki. So, yeah. You did, you came to my dressing room at the Harold Pinter Theatre when we were doing betrayal and we had such an amazing chat for your old podcast.

And that is when we first met. Yes. And then we kept in touch. Margate connection. The Margate Eden. Margate Eden. And then, yeah, almost lived of your brother. I was trying to, I was trying to basically get him to live with you.

Oh, sorry. You were trying to force your brother to live with me. Not, well, not. Force is strong, force is strong, but probably appropriate. Because I thought you guys would have an amazing artist. He makes amazing ambient music. and obviously you make music, they were both artistic.

But that didn't happen, but we still had a great time in Margate. We never lived together. No. What was I thinking? Why was I foisting my brother on you? I should have been foisting myself on you because I was also looking for accommodation at the time.

Yeah, mad. Well, listen, here we are. I mean, you're, I'm loving this kind of dark teal behind you on this bookshelf. That's very satisfying to me. Also, it's sitting next to a deep red. And am I wrong, I think, is that the Sainsbury's, He's an elaborate grove, basically, that you've got a painting behind you. No, actually, this is painted by my brother.

That is the canal as it runs past east. East. Keats and I had this moment. She was trying to claim it as a West London painting. It's east. It's just down past London fields. I think that's right. I was also going to add in about our connective tissue.

Yeah. About your mom, me and your mum meeting in Margame. Yes. Shout out of Mum's Eve. Without you, President. shout out mumsy, shout out Emma. I was actually going to call her. I wasn't going to call her.

I was going to text her before we did this today and be like, I'm seeing Jordan. But anyway, me and your mom are on texting basis. I feel like that's relevant. But we bumped into each other when I was heavily pregnant with my first baby. And she gave me, I think you've mentioned it before, some of the best birthing advice ever of all time,

which I don't know if you know what it is. Of course I do. It's but watermelons. Yeah. So we were chatting. She was already giving some really lovely kind of... Unsolicited advice. Unsolicited, but also beautiful.

I was actually someone who enjoyed unsolicited advice during pregnancy. I must be like the only person. You're like, totes, me too, dear. But I was listening on a different frequency because I was so close to the birth. And I think that's why I had been tempted to go back to Muggs just to be with the C. and be in my old nostalgic place before going on this massive transitional journey. Anyway, so we were just wrapping up the convo

and as I was literally walking away, she went, and remember, shit a watermelon. Literally as I was walking away. I was like, I wish you'd said that at the beginning of the conversation. Because I literally walked away going, I have no idea what she means. And then as I was like on the train,

home like the nugget of like the golden nuggets like the slot machine it was just going ding ding ding I was like oh yeah she's saying engage the swinkter whilst

birthing which no one had interestingly said before but also just the image of the watermelon and the thing was just so evocative anyway cut to I'm giving birth I'm having a little bit of a

chaotic time of it. And your mother's words came to my mind. And that is how my first child was born with your mother's voice in my head. She's got to put that on her CV. That is honestly. But seriously, no one really knows their birth story. This is one of the weirdest things to me in life. Right.

We're not encouraged, like you get your birth certificate and you're like, bye. And very few of us actually know the circumstances under which we were born. Yeah. And it's actually your first chapter. It's actually the first software download on your body. But we're not encouraged to ever know what that is. Like it could lead us to the answers for so many of our coping mechanisms or so many of our physical ways of being and showing up.

Yeah. It's weird you say that. Just to confirm your suspicions about knowing a birth story, I once was working with this guy. I was working for a foundation and I met this guy who worked in addiction and he had like, he was telling me that he has this new technology that can help people understand the extent to which they're addicts, right? So I think I was in recovery at the time. I just started. I mean, I still am, but I just started. And he was like, you should do the test. You should do this test and we should see if it,

you know, I've got to show you how it works and I think it can really help people. So I go to this guy's house, I do the test. And basically it's like a living quiz. So you can't like, you can't find the right answers and then get to a destination because the next question is dependent on more than one variable of how you've answered the previous question. Right. So I did this test and then it got back the picture of it.

It was like a big circle with lines. And then there was like words around the circle, right? And it would be like belonging and, uh, fucking, I don't know what it was. Belonging purpose. I don't know, there's like these big words to do with like our place in the world. And then they went, yep, you have the addict line. And I was like, well, I know, like you've got the addict line that, that draws you from belonging to something. And it's like, and if we saw that, this is your point, though, if we saw that before, say a moment of stress where I did then obviously resort to drugs when I was, you know, first famous and shit, they could probably go, you're more at risk, you know, of falling into addiction than someone else.

And then the guy asked me, did you have any birth trauma, right? Because he said that often people who become addicts enter into the world with a very small feeling that they shouldn't be there. Wow. Some people, he believes this. By the way, this isn't gospel, but this is what he believes. And I said, bizarrely, I did actually have some birth trauma. It's really embarrassing to admit, but this is fucking missed me. So I did it.

But I'm pretty sure that. I actually swallowed my own shit. Oh my God, me too. Yeah. No freaking way. Wait, and that, because that is traumatic because you, the baby can die for that. Yes, yes. And the mom.

Yes. Everyone can fucking die. Yeah. So what, so is there, do you have a whole picture of the best story or just that bit? So, but the other bit I was told, it's my mom. kind of denies, right? But I'm pretty sure if I know her, she's denying because it's a half truth,

but there's some truth, right? So the main facts about my mom, with birth, which is gangster, is no painkillers, right? And obviously you met my mom quite easy to believe that, to be honest. But 100, 100,000. This woman was like, let's fucking go.

And then the other thing was, she did, however, smoke a spliff. And then she also told me that, and she'll hate me, saying that because she's like, no, I fucking did. She did. I think she did. And but the reason why it's funnier is because I came silently out of the birth canal. This is another weird thing about me, right? So in spite of me being arguably the noisiest fucker in most rooms, apparently as I left my mother, I was silent. You were silent. Yeah. And I, and I, and I, I've got goosebumps.

And then I came out and then once I figured shit out, I probably started screaming, but I definitely didn't come out screaming typically to how you might see some babies, you know, like freaking out about lights and shit. And then the other funny part, which I just throw in there while it's on my mind is my mom was giving birth, my mom was giving birth at the same time as one of the Botengs. You know that family? Yes, I actually do. Yeah. So my mom's last name is Bolting. And they picked me up. They, they misheard the last name and started to pick me up as if to take me to the Boetang family.

And my mum had to scream to get them to bring me back. Okay. This is just to, it's, as someone who's now obsessed with their stories, that does say Jordan. I don't even know why I say that, but do you feel that? Are you like those pieces that I have, like you were saying with the quiz,

you know, do you feel like they point to a lot of relevant? things to you today. Look, I don't want to get too deep on stuff because, you know, I, my parents already have a tough time because I am very transparent and, you know, in my book, I'm pretty open about my relationship with my parents because I made the decision which they had to go along with, basically, was that like my individual life, my persona, I wasn't going to protect my private life in the same way some other people would because I really think that the message was more important than the protection of those people being my mum and dad, But obviously I gave them the book, they read it, they whatever.

I said it's my point of view, you know. So I think it's, I think the main thing is there's other little bits like my dad. I'm pretty sure my dad named me because one of his mates, he asked one of his mates what to call his kid that he said, Jordan. There's a picture of me screaming in his arms. So I did scream eventually, but he's, someone's taking a polaroid and he's written born singer on it, which is kind of mad. Stop.

Yeah, yeah, I've actually got the polaroid, yeah. These goosebumps are not leaving me. And then I feel like to answer is that my mum and dad have both had their issues. I think that's the concise way of saying it. They've both had their issues. My dad had a few issues in the early part of my life that might have been reflected in me in some ways, which some people would believe is an obvious link. But I do have this thing that is less prevalent in my life now, but I did very much have

it in my 20s where I would have these moments of feeling like genuinely profound existential loneliness. Even though I'm good on my own, I would have these bouts that I couldn't really describe and didn't have a place for until I did that quiz. That is so deep.

And so what is your relationship to silence? To silence. Well, I'm getting better at being in it. But it's not necessarily been... But it feels uncomfortable. It has done historically for me, yeah. Depends that what the... silence, you know, silence can be loud.

It depends on the situation, you know. But that's, but that would make sense to me if you. Yeah. Left the birth canal in silence because of this trauma that happened of the, you know, when you, if you, if you take a shit in your mum's tummy before you're born, basically, that is, that is a, that is this kind of small trauma and the body, your mom's body would have reacted to that. My mom's body would have reacted to that.

I can't believe that's one of our other connected issues. We both nearly ate our own. So is that the, are there any more parts of your birth story? So what's interesting is my mum has always vocalised my birth story because I think it helped her process it. So it's actually really healthy for mums to talk about their birth stories because it sort of fills gaps in a narrative that, because it's kind of high octane at the time,

it might have these little spaces in it. But also if you did have a traumatic birth, it can help you just sort of holistically heal from it by narrating it. Wow. And that's very healthy. And it's also really healthy for children to know their best story. So everyone should just be doing this, you know, just as part of their life. But I was three days of labour.

So I'm so there's different pieces that feel like me from that. Holy shit. Holy shit endurance I'm an endurance person and so it's my mom so that was three days of labour so I was really like tired

and probably quite stressed by the end then my mum was in hospital no pain relief and I then I shout myself in my mummy's tongue and then everyone panicked they said this baby has to be an emergency cesarean and that's when I was like

jigs up guys it's all good I'm coming down Like, joke. Joke, three days of joke. If you've had enough. And then I came out, you know, vaginally, which is, but then I had, I've only found out this other piece of my birth story more recently, which is that I had the cord around my neck. And it makes literal sense to me that that would have happened.

A, the endurance bit. I'm so, I'm like, three days of labour. I'm like, yeah. And my mom was like, you came out like, you'd done. 10 rounds with Mohammed Ali. You were, you were beaten up. I'm gonna, Zawi, you know what I'm doing. Call your own.

Mom, I'm gonna keep this, I'm gonna keep this brief, right? But I'm on a podcast right now with your fave, Zawi. Hi, Emma. Zoe. Hi, my angel. Zawi has just shared with the world your birthing advice, which she thinks has positively affected, like literally,

you know, at least a dozen other women, which is, which is, which is, you know, and if I know Zawi, these are women of influence, right? So, so, so I, but I've tried to recount Zawi's got an incredible theory, which I think is very, very true that the more people understand about their birth story, the more they can understand how that's played, played into their life, right? So I have tried to recount some funny things I remember about my birth story or the fact that it came up as like a potential route for addiction, maybe because of like a slight birth trauma.

But obviously, who better to talk about my birth story than my mum? So my intention was to have a natural birth without any painkillers because I had been led to believe that many, many women throughout time, in incredibly uncomfortable and difficult circumstances have still managed to give birth, without painkillers just naturally and I wanted to honour that I wanted to honour those women

and I did actually fulfil what I intended to do which was give birth without any painkillers and big up big up and that is amazing you happen to be a little bit more relaxed than I would have hoped and fell asleep in the birth canal my birth canal

and so I had to just push a lot harder than I anticipated and out your pots. Wait, okay, but did I also, were there also complications during that birth canal? No. I thought you, I thought you said I swallowed. Oh, you might have, you might have pooed yourself in your relaxation. So it was just a matter of clearing your airways a little bit. So just to clarify, because you've played this down quite considerably.

So just to be very clear, the fact you didn't even mention that is hilarious. It's just to be very clear, I was relaxed in the pocket. I've shit myself, I've swallowed it, which would have made it even harder for you to push me out, I'm guessing. Well, no, I mean, nothing is as hard as pushing out a fairly average-sized baby. Luckily, you weren't enormous. I was visualising you long and thin in order to make it easier for me. And I think you came out quite well.

And I was quiet, right, when I came out? You were quiet initially because they had to clear your airways to get... Oh, that's why I was silent because I had this shit in my throat. Oh, baby Jordan. It was a baby Jordan. Sorry about that. So how... That's probably the last time you've talked shit.

Brilliant. That's really. Clearing the shit early on your birth. Early. Clearing the shit early. I mean, I have many, many people who would disagree with that. But how long was the labour? So the labour was 13 hours.

Okay. Good. So, you know, fairly average for a first child. Yeah. And but, you know, and my hair looked like I'd back combed it. you know, because it was very, very hot and I was told to stop swearing in which I ignored. Of course, of course.

It completely. Because I think the, I don't know if I'm allowed to swear on here. You are allowed to swear. Well, I think the word fuck, if you really hang on to it. Fights, spiritual. It is really good release. Yeah. Really good release.

It is. And I yelled at the top of my voice. Now, do you want to hear one other thing that happened? after your birth. Yes, please. Zari said yes, emphatically. Okay, so luckily I'm quite on top of things that other people that I don't know are involved in, i.e. the midwife and the nurses around.

And they put the wrong name on your wrist. Yeah, I know, right? And what was the name? What a thing. The name was Boteng. And my name is Bolting. and me and Beverly Boutang gave birth on the same night and I only know this because I actually went into her anti-natal appointment

the only one I had by mistake because I thought they'd called Bolting and not Boutain and it was only when I looked at the notes when the nurse went out to get something that I realised that wasn't me at all and I then to go back into reception and wait for my appointment but that was because I looked at the notes I wouldn't have known that is wow

so I could have been just raised by Botangs right now you could have been in a whole other family but me being me he's pretty vigilant and all over everything which you complain about often but sometimes it's really helpful that I am all over everything that's true mum that's true I can see

I cancede. I really, I saw immediately, that's one of the first things I checked was your wristband. And I kicked off. Wow. Yeah, wow. Okay. Like I wouldn't believe.

That is. And said to your father, do not let that baby out of your sight. When we were going up to the ward, I went, do not let that baby out of your sight. Wow. Okay. And then, and then there's a couple other things that I want to, to just double check, right? That I've actually, to be fair, mom, just to prove that. I listen, if you do listen about this episode, I actually got most of this right.

You did have this. So the other two things I want to add. So firstly, my name, what's the story? Well, I had several names for you. I know what this names you had, yeah. I named my dog after one of them. Yeah, Lucky and Soul. Which, thank God I wasn't called Lucky in Neesden, by the way, just throwing that up there.

Like that would have got battered every day. Thank you. Carry on. Okay, well, Lucky Dube is one of the greatest. Yeah, but Mum, it sounds like you're being the name a dog. mate, lucky, spike and soul. It's an African name. Okay, all right, listen, anyway, carry on, sorry, continue.

Anyway, I love you, I love you, I love you. So then I thought generously, I thought, no, I'm going to give, as you're a boy, I'll give it to your dad that pleasure. And your dad was hanging out with a friend and came back with the name, Jordan. And then lastly, sorry, just to finish this off, which. am I right in thinking that initially to the doctors didn't believe that I was mixed race? They thought I had joined us. Yes. So we were, yeah, so they hadn't met Herman.

The next shift or the new shift hadn't met Herman came in, said, oh, no, babies got jaundice. I went, what? I went, well, but his eyes aren't yellow. They went, yeah, he's very yellow. yellowy skin. And I went, well, yeah, that might be to do with his skin colour. That hasn't quite coming yet. And anyway, so I prevented them giving you any nonsense to do with jaundice because I know how to recognise jaundice and I wasn't. And plus the fact, I was dealing with quite a lot in the ward because it was right near Holloway prison. Yeah, interracial couples weren't

vibe back then. Is that a way to put it? We're not the mind. Okay. No. But there was a lot going on because there were sort of women about to give birth who were handcuffed in the beds opposite. Oh God, it's real. Which I found very disturbing

and I had to go and talk to those women, you know. Jesus Christ. That I did not know. You gave birth opposite in prison. Okay. All right. We cut this is, mum. Thank you so much, by the way. Emma, thank you.

I love you, loads of mum, and I'm going to ring you after. She'll speak you in a bit. Bye, bye, bye, bye, bye. Bless. Epic. Epic. My mum's never been or missed me, so thanks for that. I love that.

I love that as an exclusive. Epic Jordan. She's going to be spiraling after she's going to be like, oh my God, what am I done? It is a lot. It's a lot to give that in that way to a public forum. But what do you think? Are you not just like downloading that going? You know what's funny is one of the things,

one of the traits I've learned to accept is that I actually have a really good memory. Like generally speaking, because I'm so interested by so many things in life, I think I store a lot of really, like, what some people might consider to be like, menial or useless information. I just like store,

which obviously helps me with more important information. So actually the reason I think I remembered so much of it is because she's incrementally told me these stories over years. I remember giving an Air Jordan t-shirt and then my mum saying, I think you're named after him. You know, that kind of thing.

So it's just like, it's like a quilt. It's like a patchwork quilt of stories. And to have it like validated in like linear. But that's what's so good. Because I think we all know these little pieces occasionally. Like, but it's when you weave it together as mother and child, I think it is actually a really, really important missing piece

just generally in our society. And what I get from what your mom's told and what obviously you remembered is like there's this element of like fast and slow in your birth and then this huge moment of what actually is quite existential identity crisis. Also like the other part of it is

I didn't realize actually until she said that that my air pipes were cleared when I was born. That for me, in terms of your theory, that seems to be the most like that's the thing that that makes most sense to the addict exam because it's like if I've come out unable to breathe you know interesting like and I have to have the my airways cleared whilst I'm already conscious of being in a whole other dimension

that that's quite I think that's quite deep yeah that's quite deep I think that writes something quite powerfully pre-verbal on your constitution definitely if you feel this need to scream Yeah. Did that natural first breath and you're... And I actually do have trouble breathing, by the way. I do... So this is where the cord around the neck thing came for me

because I get panicked if I get out of breath. So doing cardio for me is like a nightmare. I'm just like an old lady on the treadmill. Because if my heart rate starts to go up and I start to not be able to breathe, I get really, really panic. But then I also have this really weird thing where like things around my neck are quite comforting.

So like I'm rock a polar neck in some. I just love that comfort. But then if it's like the wrong type of thing, like a choker. And like I've had to wear chokers for like work before. Like when I was doing fresh meat, like Vod, the character Vodd wore quite a lot of things around her neck. And there would be things that felt very comfortable like a scarf or a tie. But then anything that's like restrictive,

I'm in a low key panic. Dude. And also like have you ever. Have you been, have you had a role where you've had to be choked or anything like that or it's been part of like the like choreography ever seen? Interesting. I don't think I have, but I would hate it. Yeah.

I don't think I would be able to do it. Yeah. But this thing of like, you know, I think for me and maybe you're the same, there is this level of somatic healing. And by the way, I know people who've had. amazing, hippie, gorgeous water births who are deeply anxious people and people who've had like hypermedicalize emergency traumatic births who are very, very sorted.

Like, this isn't about like, oh, there's no shame on like anyone's birthing story. But there is so much information there. It's like it's nuts. And also then when I gave birth to my first, that birth was almost exactly the same as my birth. Wow. So I was so glad that I had that information That shit trips me out Zowie Can I just say

That is when we go Epigenetics Where are you haters and doubters You gotta stop The whole history has a strange way of repeating itself That phrase Like I really Actually I will say I really mean this

That phrase haunts me Like like and I mean haunting Not necessarily in a negative way But something will happen in my life and I'll get this like oh mate I'll be like like I said you know what I I'll share this

because I tried to share it before but I don't think I fully did there was a really odd thing that happened to me recently where I went to Brazil and I did a men's care summit right and I was like part of this like one of a few or a handful of like festivals around the world dedicated to like

exploring masculinity basically and issues trying to find patterns of issues in various cultures of across the globe. And the last time I went to Rio, I was like, it was the most heartbroken I've ever been in my life. It was the lowest point of my life emotionally.

I was like, there was a point in this place called Santa Teresa where I was at, I was eating food with my uncle and his girlfriend and her sister. And I stepped outside to go on the phone and I remember just being absolutely like, I had no, I didn't know how to get out of what it was, I was feeling and I stood at the top of this,

Santa Teresa's up in the mountain mountains, right, in Rio, and I was overlooking this bridge, just like big drop, you know, and I remember having the thought, you know, which I think is like, you know, fairly common people will have these moments of crisis where I've thought, wow, I mean, that would be a relief, wouldn't it? Like, you know, and there's a low point, right? And I write about it in my book. And what's really weird is in my book, I imagine that I hear a wolf, right? I just say that for the sake of the book, you know, artistic license. Anyway, I do this men's care summit and they go, okay, so we're going to drive up to Santa Teresa and I was like, you

what and then this summit was a hundred meters from from that exact spot and I remember getting shivers and thinking I don't believe times linear right like I don't this is what I'm saying is the stuff so trippy is like I think I was already there yeah I was already there when I was sad I was already in I was already I was already had built the future where I was helping other people avoid that. So anyway, that's, why did I say that? Oh yes. So that whole thing of like you... Circle of life.

Yeah, like those moments where you're like, that one's probably a bit more like individualistic. But the idea that you're recreating the story of your own bum, like with birthing and up, that's like deep shit. Like I feel like it's happening at the same time. It's deep. It's happening at the same time. It's happening at the same time, you know, when you even think of like the, the,

just the factual element of eggs and your mother's eggs having existed in your grandmother. So you also have lived inside your grandmother before. That, I remember reading that. That's when we really start to cook. That's when we really start to cook on this. I can't even deal with that. I can't deal with that. It's so mad.

And then obviously epigenetic stuff is like so real. Like I wish we could talk to every single. ancestor. Like what's so weird, what I'm wearing today, right? For me, is it's so weird. Recently, I've just been dressing as a French peasant. Don't ask me why. It's a look. It's a vibe. It's like a pastoral kind of cosplay. Okay. And I was like, why? I was like, why is this my vibe? And then actually I went to Makita's event. She did this event at Relic, this vintage shop at West. And I was joking with her. She was like, you're picking out and I was like basically if it's if it's not French present I'm not I'm not

fucking with it and we were laughing and I was like why am I saying this why do I feel like dressing like this anyway I had to go on Google it and in this in like the 1700s in like pre revolutionary France where Marie where Queen Marie Antoinette was on the you know everyone's obsessed with Marie Antoinette aren't they was on the throne she just decided that it's like we're just going to do a fashion switch up and we're just going to all start dressing like farm workers essentially.

And that's going to be the new thing and like the silk business in I think plays like Leon was just like crashing. So weird. Okay. I have French silk weaving emphasis. No way.

It's just the energy is just in you. It's almost like it's, it's weirdly like cost but i only know that because my dad went really really really far back into that family tree but it's almost like it just it just came to me one day i was like this is how i just have this is how i want to express myself and when i look back i'm like that's actually a blueprint that lives within me is these french uh sort of silk bankrupt bankrupt like silk weavers um who was sort of being bankrupted by the fact that all these gentrified people suddenly wanted to

dress like they had no money and then the people with actually no money started to really have no money um oh that's that that that had a some variation of resurgence i'd say in the last 10 years when you had like i was going to say like one of the early examples of like hipsterism hello why is this nepo baby in west london dressed like a drill rapper i'm not i have no idea yeah exactly this is like kind of a low-key offensive moment that i'm witnessing it. And actually I probably, in this cosplaying, I'm also like summoning probably some problematic levels of something. Do you know what a thought just came into my head? Because I looked over there and saw a card that has a cake on it. It was my birthday recently. You weren't invited.

I'm so sorry. You were on the key to who both invited me to your birthdays. Because I don't have, I don't have big birthdays anymore. You're Hollywood, there's no space. Once you've invited the Gilroy brothers, Jake, Tom,

various other Avengers, you know what I mean? Like then there's, there's no space. There's no space. I would love, let's just keep projecting that idea of me out into the world

so I can actually hide in behind the person I really am, which was I had a tiny Sunday roast with all my family and that was it. Which is lovely. And you guys have. have like amazing big friendship groups which I don't have. No, no, no.

This is new for me. What you came to on my birthday is new. That's only the second or maybe third year I've done that because, and I'll tell you why. Really? Yes, I'll tell you why. I was, I historically never mentioned my birthday. I used to have to get forced to do something for it.

I had an ex. He would do surprise things or organise it with Harley because I just wouldn't do or say anything. And then one of my best friends who always has parties, not just birthday parties. He has end of summer parties. He has Christmas parties. and I'd always be like, why is he always doing this? And then one of his closest friends died. And the last time any of us saw him was one of his parties.

And he literally said that is the reason. Even before that happened, that's why I like bringing people together because I literally don't know. I don't know because life's fucking crazy. If I'm going to see them again. Life's crazy. But that's how, that's me. See, that's my relationship to birthdays and parties and like events.

I'm like, let's have a party for the end of the thing. Let's have a party for the beginning of it. Let's have a party because we reach the middle. Like I'm nuts. And I think people in my close orbit actually really struggle. So this is my, I'm the opposite to you. I then have turned it down to one this year. And I've really benefited from that.

Yeah, no, I hear what you're saying. Just bled, I've bled energy. Yeah, no, no, I totally get it. You're in conservation mode. You're recharging. I'm recharging, darling. You're recharging. You're recharging.

And I, and I, and I, and I, I found it for one of the first times, Jay. I was like, I'm really gratitude. I'm really gratitude. I'm really in gratitude, like in quite a deep way. And for the first time, that felt good rather than it's not enough. Yeah. That's age.

That's one of the things that actually does get quite good with age, maybe. Yeah. Is that slower way of processing family, friends, beloved's. but I was going to ask what your relationship to cake is. Oh my God. That is so funny. I feel like this is like a conversation to diagnose and undiagnosed.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is fucking hilarious, bub. What's my relationship to cake? I'm not like, I wouldn't go out of my way to find cake. I enjoy it at birthdays. It was my friend Candice's birthday the other day and we had a bit of her cake. That was lovely.

Candies Coutarillian? Yes. Yeah, she didn't invite me. You know what she did? She had a very small dinner with... Intimate dinner. Yes. Got you.

And it was. It really was. It was a single table. And she said specifically the same thing as you just said. She just said, I'm just having a small, low-key things with close friends and family. No, because we're very much deep into the star sign thing. So we always kind of send each other stuff around about this time. Yeah, she's a fucking jeez.

man she's honestly like one of the my favorite people in my life um and uh but yeah she had some cake at our birthday and uh the only other thing i have is because i don't do drugs anymore like well hard drugs anymore i did have a i did have a trauma response about like three years ago and i ate cake for a whole day and i and i said to myself you know what i said you know what i'm letting myself have this no you can laugh about it it was you years ago and I remember it was like basically a friend who he triggered like my abandonment wound not on purpose but it was it was like visceral like he we had a bit of an argument he kind of stormed out like it not stormed out but he like left

abruptly you know and I was like oh wow he's never coming back you know that vibe and I could feel it in my body like I was like how I process of trauma responses is like my I actually start shaking which is like not usual so I was like oh fuck I'm shaking and then the next day I think I went to is it hay festival? It must have been at hay or something like that, like a book festival. And obviously,

at those book festivals, they just have cake. They just like exclusively serve cake the whole day. Are you joking me? It's for the nannas and that. Tea and cake is just flying off the shelves, bruff. So I was there like,

free cake all day, just loading up on cake, literally, like constantly going, infinite supply of cake. And it started with pleasure and then ended with pain. No, I realized what was happening after maybe the seventh or eighth or eight slides

and was like, I'm actually going to just let myself out of this day. Like I'm fucking doing cake today. I'm doing it today. Doing cake. Yeah. Is there any image that is more tragic comic than someone like eating cake but feeling really. I've got nothing else.

This is how is we. I don't do cocaine anymore. I don't drink. I don't even smoke cigarettes, bro. I don't even smoke cigarettes like I ate that fucking cake. No, I'm with. I ate that cake.

I'm with you. I think that's what cake has come to represent for me is all of the naughty things that I can't do really anymore that are now like getting water down. I don't know really why I brought it up. I like chocolate cake. Okay, but I need to know, do you go, like this will make me happy to know.

Do you ever go and buy the cake? Do you buy the chocolate cake, normal? I buy cake all the time. Every week. I buy cake all the time. Day. Every day fuck off You buy a whole chocolate cake every day

Be honest Not a whole chocolate cake A slice, but maybe a slice Yeah there's something There's something There's something that I find really really deeply comforting about it And I know people like to bake

I'm not really that You're not that person You want to go to the cafe So like at the end of inception You want to go to the cafe At the end of inception You know when he like spins the Spins the thing

To know if he's in reality or not Like the constant, yours is just a slice of chocolate cake. Mine is a slice of chocolate cake's winning. But also if I don't eat cake on my birthday, I feel like panicked. Yeah. Like if I have a, like I literally texted Tom on the way to the meal going, are you bringing the cake? Will there be a cake there?

Meanwhile, he's trying to plan like a really lovely surprise. You must have text me questions like this. And I was like, but why? I have to micromanage. I have to micromanage this in an inch of its life. Anyway, we were going to talk about auditions. Look, I have my memoir here. Yeah, oh, wow, brilliant.

Because we were also going to talk about auditions. Yes, you went through some tragic auditions. And you put you, you created a vehicle in which to speak about your life, your relationship with character and also just a mechanism for you to be a little bit absurd. Because I need more of those. I need more of those moments be fucking wacky. I need a lot more of those.

I need a lot more of those to be there. No, it's good. Well, because basically you are an act, you're an actor, aren't you? And you're a really good actor. You're a good actor.

Do you think of yourself as an actor? No. Just what an actor would do. No, I don't. I don't. No, but Zowie, I tell you what,

okay, you're right. I've never been able to voice this properly and I'm going to explain because people get fucking pissed off me, especially my friends who act, right, because of some of the things I've done. And also, I have acted competently in certain roles that I am proud of, you know, a film called Tuck, feel good as a guest lead.

Like, I'm really proud of these stuff I'm in part. A lead at the young book in a very classic plays, Joe Orton, yes. I love acting for these reasons. I get to meet new people, I have new experiences, I go to new places. That's ultimately why I still do it. And when I do get to eat something, then I do feel this kind of sense of brief escape from my world. However, I lived with a very good actor for a year and a half. And I dated an actor for two years.

And when people are like just actors, right, and that's not in a reductive sense. They just happen to only act as their main kind of. Yeah. It's just a different breed, bro. I just, I like, from my perspective, I, in other things, like music, if I get a book, right, I'll read a book and I think, oh, that's, that book's incredible. I've got my own way of saying that. Like, I feel, you know, I feel like I can match something in through my own, in my own way. Oh, I could write about that, but in my own way. With acting, nowadays, I'll get an audition through. I'll read it and I'll be like, I literally can't do that. Like, there's, there's not, there's no, there's no other, there's no other real thing I'm involved in where I don't, I have that immediate thought where I'm like, I actually have no interest in even trying to do that. Like, like, like, Like, and I, and I've become incredibly cynical about the industry because of my experiences in it. And for me, there's a lot of falsity, which is in, in, which is baked into the experience of it, which I personally am too thin skinned to deal with. I, I literally would, I'll admit that.

I am too sensitive. I'm too, like, I can't do this in-out thing. I can't do this like, I got a phone call, for example, like, you know, I've been keeping my head low with acting really. after Sloan, I've not really done anything. And that was tough doing that play. I got a cool, oh, direct is me, straight directors meet. And I'm like, wow, amazing. I mean, I did do a lead in a play, maybe, blah, blah, blah.

And on one day, it was like, are you free on this month? This is how much fun we're going to have. This is who you're acting opposite. Four days later, you didn't get the part, right? What's mad to me is I literally would rather have not had the first phone. I'm not bothered. Like, I don't need it to enter into my life. All I did was spend four days fantasising about spending a month

and acting opposite an incredible actor that, and now I'm disappointed. Why? It's a hellish, hellish industry because we're all so fragile. The thin skin thing, I don't think that's just you. I think that is literally every actor. In fact, I think it's like a requirement. Thin skinned. Nah.

But Ashley Waters said to me, when I've described my feelings about like auditions and that, it was like, yeah, maybe not built for it. genuinely in the nicest way i love actually he's like he's a he's a he's a g also daniel keel same thing famously he just doesn't attach himself to auditions so in motherhood right wonderful writers that talk about the the active motherhood and like the industry of motherhood right and the industry of motherhood is terrible and that's what's going to mess you up and make you afraid and make you feel shameful whereas the active motherhood is actually quite different

and i think acting is similar that the acting is a very pure thing. It's ancient, you know. And if we had like more, if we had, if we had more information, obviously a lot of information on how the Greeks did it right, but also like African art, African acting, African theatre before, you know,

the Westerners came over and kind of put the proscenia march around it, was it just about community. It was about storytelling. It was about problem solving. It was jazz, basically. It was like call and answer, you know, as an actor you were there as this vessel for your community. And you posed a question and waited for the community to answer.

And then you kind of worked out how to live with each other. And that's beautiful. And then you put a proscenium arch around it and go, oh, actually, you know, this is a presentation of something. This is about people who are winning and losing up there. And it changes completely. Yeah. No, I think the thin skin propels you into the.

active acting because every single actor is kind of traumatized. We have to look at all their birth stories. And we would understand why they're there. But, you know, I think that gets you into doing it. And then if you're going to be in the industry of it or like in the fame of it, then you do need different mechanisms. Okay, Zahui, look, let me just rein this in. And you know that better than anyone for your music.

You are unusual in this respect to Zawi. Like you have, you act, but you also have a vested interest. in writing, in producing, in whatever, right? You actively have a creative mind that transcends, well, not transcend sounds wanky, but that extends beyond simply the art form of where's this character? Okay, now I'm gonna engage in a creative process, right?

In my experience, when I talk about acting, just for the sake of like, am I an actor? Yes, I can act, but an actor, right? I have found very difficult to access people like that in that space. And that's why I find that actors often end up dating actors because there is quite a unique connection in the joint understanding that their actual life is quite floaty.

Because it almost has to be a little bit floaty because that prepares you to embody characters. Like I got the audition through to play Bob Marley, right? I was going to add dreadlocks, right? And like it seems like a no-brainer for me to go for that, right? People say you look like him. That would be amazing. Listen, Zawi.

I've looked at that script, and when I literally don't have the energy or capacity to even, like, if I even did, which I knew I wouldn't, by the way, which was another reason I said no, was if I even got my shit together, learnt the songs, whatever, I knew that like the lengths I'd have to go to to embody that character. Like, me personally, I don't think I actually have the energy or capacity. Audition rooms are very, very weird places to be. they are airless strange spaces where you're basically asking strangers for this unconditional love

that you can't even give to yourself because nine times out of ten because you're in this liminal space between getting something and not getting something you're already feeling just like you're treading this line between like pompous like self like whatever

aggrandizing self what aggrandizing and then self-hate you can be sure shit at auditions they'd be a good actor that's the thing there's spaces

that only very yeah I guess like you're saying only few people are really good at I'm notoriously terrible at them but also I've had some terrible one so my worst one

I've written about my book is called character breakdown because the breakdown of the characters that you're usually auditioning for are already so unbelievably two dimensional and shit you know

it's like Serena like scientist in space you know 30s to 40s like what is that what you're talking about what the like is that and so already there you're kind of in this reductive space anyway whatever which is one of my worst auditions ever of all time actually there's two one is when I had to dance through time yeah I'm actually going to pretend you didn't say that that's how that's how preposterous that is I can't even get my head around you saying I went in

It was for a Broadway play about a woman who was kind of like into 1920s jazz or something and used to imagine herself in those scenarios. And I went in and they were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, like read the script or whatever, like read bits from the script. And they were like really traumatic bits of the script. It was a woman who like had abuse in her past and stuff. And I was like, okay. And it was like sad and like the atmosphere in the room was sad and people were like quite like,

staring at me quite intensely and going like, go deeper, go deeper, you know, and I was like, this is really, feels really fucked up and I just can't wait to leave. I'm, I'm just going to leave as soon as I can. And then I did. And as I put my hand on the door knob to leave, I heard music playing. I was like, am I transitioning? What? To another realm. And it was like 1920s jazz. And I turned around and literally the director was there going, come on. Literally you couldn't. It's like people parody this in film. Real. Dance for me.

Dance for me. And I was like, I've died somehow between the chair and the door. And this is my route down to hell. No. And you have to do it. And so I just started like swaying to this 1920s jazz. And then suddenly we're in the 30s and it's gone all like a little bit like flappery. Then we're in the 40s and it's suddenly like 50s do what?

I was like, Jordan, I'm dancing. I'm dancing through. It's not clear why this is relevant to the thing, apart from this woman who just likes music in the play. I danced from the 1920s up to the early 2000s. And it was the most humiliating thing I've ever had to do in my life. Okay, so that's my worst audition story. And then sometimes there are terrible auditions

where you haven't read fully on the email what the audition is, which I did once again for another play and I read the scenes and I was like that went okay whatever time to go and they were like and your song yeah no the words no action wants to hear in the audition and your song is fucking crazy you don't want to hear it I think it's leave right now

and I was like I've missed a bit on the email and they were like if you could just it was like a play about like a sad woman and they were like if you could just sing to this potter plant no And you're singing to the plant. I had prepared nothing. And so the longest two minutes of my,

one of the longest two minutes of my life was the only song that popped into my head because I obviously had to make up the fact that I prepared a song. It was a Damien Rice song. Brilliant. It was Cannonball. Obviously. In another universe, there's on another timeline,

there is me still singing on a loop. This day, Damien Rice is. cannibal to a succulent plant on a desk in an airless room. Fuck, yeah. I know that's right. But then also,

one of the reasons why I wanted to stop acting, and this will be prevalent to one of you in Keats's chats, right, was sometimes you get character breakdowns like this, which are dangerous and problematic and hell and shouldn't exist.

And this was one of the last character breakdowns I read before I moved to Margate and decided I was going to stop acting, literal genuine one. The character you would be playing is murdered. Before that, she will be seen topless in one scene where she is acting in a porn film, so you must be comfortable simulating sex for this scene. You will need to be prepared to expose all on set in order to make it work.

You would need to be completely happy to simulate sex, kiss, simulate groping, simulate being groped. She will then be seen naked on a mortuary slab in another scene, full nudity required. That is... And that's when I quit adding. And that was the end scene. I mean, listen, I've got...

Yeah, I've got traumatic audition stories. But the one that just sprung to mind when you said that was I... My biggest role, I guess, based off of viewership, was I play a small part in Star Wars Rogue One, which amongst Star Wars fans is considered... the best spin-off, a standalone film. I got randomly put in it, no audition, by the way.

So bear in mind that I have like, I have spent days sometimes preparing for like a guest part in a BBC three comedy, no disrespect. And then I get asked to just turn up on a Friday and I felt like it was a prank. But hilariously, after the fact, right, there's a massive, there's now a spin-off series called Andor, right? And Andor's super popular.

Yeah. People say it's fucking dope. my friend Fay, isn't it? And they were like, hit me up one day, listen. We're almost up to the events of Rogue One, so we're going to get the team back together. Like one of the soldiers was already a big character in the show. And are you free for a day shoot?

Right? And I was like, fuck, yeah. Everyone said Andles a vibe. You know what I mean? Like, let's fucking do this shit. And they're like, cool, just send us your picture of your, 360 picture of you. I sent him a picture at the time I had dreadlocks, right,

from lockdown. I've come back and been like Yeah so we're more than we're all good for you to come We just need to cut off your locks And I was like So what? And I'm like we just got to cut off your locks Because this is the bit that kills me right

So just before I say this last bit Just bear in mind I have a helmet on the entire way Through Rogue One right So there's not even like there's a continuity With my character later on Because you literally never see my hair So then I was like Guys I'm just saying like as much I want to be part of Andor

like I've grown these locks for like three years. I'm not going to just cut them off for a day shoot. And they were like, oh, that's a real shame. It's just, you know, we're doing army drills and we're not sure that like if you had long hair, it'd be realistic. They said they, in a film that ultimately ends up with people fighting a giant slug.

Apparently, apparently a song. It's actually the dreadlocks that are really out there in terms of the imaginative slice. We have literal people fighting with light lasers, right, using telekinesis to fend off their enemies. And a man with dreadlocks in the army is like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're in an absurd space now. This is just not believable. It's just not believable.

We haven't got time to it now. But in terms of, like, we have a whole conversation to have about Afrofuturism. Oh my God, yes. The life that it has and actually how power, like when I played a baddie in a Marvel film, like a biracial alien. Wait, what the fuck? What do you mean?

Which film? Oh my God, I'm being a prick. Which one is it? It's the one that no one watched. Which one? It's called The Marvels. Yes, I did not watch the Marvels. It was a multicultural, all-female cast,

and ended up coming out in that actor's strike where you weren't allowed to promote anything. So we had like a world tour that got cancelled. And I was like, no, no, not the multicultural female film being the one that everyone dizzes and says to make any money. Of all of them, please, not this one. And unfortunately it was that. And there was a lot of like, we told you it wouldn't work.

Hey, crazy people warriors. Sorry, sorry, I know we need to end. Sorry, I'm aware, I'm sorry. But I'm just going to say, can I just say this for little listeners? You fought Captain Marvel. Captain Marvel is one of the fucking most powerful motherfuckers in the universe You could actually fuck up Loki I'm not even kidding You could actually back

There's a time line This is crazy No no this is insane Wait hold on hold on hold on Wait Dar Ben went toe to toe of Captain Marvel Captain Marvel fought Thanos You are literally you could fuck up

Thanos mate for a bit if he doesn't have all the rings But you could fuck him up All the stones. Okay, look, we're going to go. Darben, it's been emotional. We're going to go and talk about time. I'm going to go and tell everyone that I've shouted to a powerful overlord that could fuck you up. Right?

Later. Later, my darling. Thanks for listening to Miss Me. This is a Persephoneka show.