Miss Me? - Where Are The Wizards?

Episode Date: April 9, 2026

Miquita Oliver and Jordan Stephens discuss long weekends, TV show Babies, and the science of psychopaths.This episode contains very strong language, adult themes and discussions about pregnancy loss. Credits: Producer: Natalie Jamieson Technical Producer: Oliver Geraghty Assistant Producer: Caillin McDaid Production Coordinator: Rose Wilcox Executive Producer: Dino Sofos Commissioning Producer for BBC: Jake Williams Commissioners: Dylan Haskins & Lorraine Okuefuna Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Dive into the bonkers world of David Mitchell and Robert Webb and listen to their BBC comedy show. From nonsensical maths quiz number wang to finding out what James Bond is really like as a party guest. There's something for everyone. Hello, MOTT AAT. Yes, that's right. This is the Ministry of Things that are apparently true.

Yes, we do exist. The rumours are true, ironically. Start listening to that Mitchell and Web cell, the complete series 1 to 5 wherever you get your audio books This episode of Miss Me Me contains very strong language, adult themes and discussions about drugs and pregnancy loss

We're my thing like Beppe DeMarco but I won't go It won't connect on the sides That's your era of that Beppe de Marco I was going to say Do you mean Bepe for me standards? Yeah mate Oh my God

I do remember him I'm talking your language brother Tell me we're not trying to mirror Bepe from EastEnders' facial hair. No, I just couldn't be off the shave yet. Okay. Welcome to Miss Me. Welcome to Miss Me. Sorry.

Well, hello. We're in the middle of a heated debate because this is interesting. I think the facial, I actually wanted to do barbers on Listen Bitch one day because the way men groom, you've got to be so careful. You've got to be so careful. Because you don't want to get into the world of Craig David, right? Or do I not? I'm verging on it. I'd like you to stay far away.

Verging on it. Born to do it. I like you to say a bit more rough and ready. Yeah. Oh, mate. Listen, I'm trash. I'm like, well, to quote my friend Jesse, I'm first class trash. That's my vibe.

Is that what Jesse says? First class trash. Yeah, man. Jesse's a legend. Welcome to the show after a four-day weekend. Of course, if one has been on the internet, you would see that the recurring theme is, oh, four-day weekend forever, blah, blah, sure. Okay?

It's been great. Yeah. But it definitely makes leaving and coming. back into life harder. And I was like, I think that's why we have a two-day weekend because four days, it would make it consistently harder to return back to life. The longer you have out, the harder it is to go back, I think.

That's why the weekend is two days. I don't agree. Strong start to miss me. I don't agree. Four-day work week for me. So how did you enjoy the four days off? Oh, it's no different for me. I don't even know when it is a weekend.

I'm digging out. You didn't know it was Easter though, right? Yeah, because, well, my stomach does. Actually, I'm getting some tremors of body dysmorphia this morning. I have backed a packet of hot cross bands, multiple. Like, I just really went into the chocolate thing. You know what I mean? Like, just I feel like, Keats, I don't know if you know this,

but I don't do drugs anymore. And, you know, when I do fall into kind of like more destructive cycles, it tends to lean more towards specifically milk chocolate. Because dark chocolate is a balanced part of my everyday diet. But my God, at Easter. Particularly milk chocolates replace cocaine in your life particularly milk chocolate

Also and it just like It just ruins me I put on weight I can't go to toilet properly This weekend is triggering For me and possibly you Because I when I was saying this to now I'm saying this to now

I'm saying this to be honest Early 30s I didn't see this four day weekend As Easter I thought it was like Oh that's the weekend You get on the RAS Like hardcore

You've got four days To get as fucked up as you want So I approach this week with trepidation, I must say. I wanted to let all sides of myself be balanced within this Easter. I have realised when I said I don't know what a weekend is, that's actually not strictly true. I have a reverse existence where I am a day dweller.

So I'm out and about when the crowds are minimal, because especially in this city, gets a lot. Like, I do feel overwhelmed by the amount of people in cities sometimes. And like, ever since lockdown, I've been especially, I felt on a special level of freedom on Sunday mornings only. However, obviously the second it hits like 11am, like then it's just like families, people. And so in the week, in the weekday I'm out. I found the city really empty last weekend.

Yeah, the city. It's talking about central London, of course. I just know that like, obviously families will congregator parks in that. Like I don't like walking the dogs on weekends. I love walking them in the week. Yeah, but that's because you're a creative freelancer. Yeah, yeah, no, that's what I'm saying. It's a revert.

That's what I'm saying. We have Wednesday afternoons off sometimes, yeah. It's not off. Keats, constant work in this brain. Constant ding, ding, ding. I have to put in major effort to stop working. That is the blessing and the curse of self-employment is that the blessing is, I guess, more flexibility with hours. The curse, arguably lack of structure and also perpetual potential punishment for not working more.

That's actually something you do. Yes, I know. Oh my God, I know. There you have three hours of relaxation. Do you know what I mean? Okay, be honest. The last extended Easter weekend, did you write a single pitch deck?

And it does an investment deck? Yes, it does count. You did an investment deck during Easter. On Friday, we did a shit-hot investment deck. And then on Monday, I was doing research for today because I like to do research. So, yeah, I did work a bit. But you know what we did?

We had a big family life. With Uncle Nick. Oh, the one I wasn't invited to. Yeah, that was it cool. That's the one. That's the one. Thank you. You and Jade had plans.

We didn't have plans, Makita. You didn't invite us. You said you were going to that roast that you like going to up in Margate. Oh, yeah. So we did have plans. Start with me. So we had Uncle Nick, Uncle Eman and Sandra, got them all the way to Chingford. One of my mum's chef friends called Ravnit Gill lives in Chingford.

So she's open this beautiful restaurant. And it's the fucking spot. this place. Elmien was there? Oh my God, I love him. I love him. Oh, I've told you this already. So that was really nice and I felt really like, we were all like, happy Easter and I was like, God, we really take Easter quite seriously as a family now and actually

everyone comes together. I mean, Nick and Chris came from Kenya for Easter. I was like, okay. Really? It was lovely. It was really nice to see everyone. Yeah, I'd like to be in Kenya. Okay. Just stay here for a minute. And then I went to Sunshine Garden Center. I couldn't get there last week, so I went to another one. It shone more of a light on how great sunshine garden center.

Oh. You barring? Nice. Nice. But listen to the people that came up to me to say, I love Miss me. It was like, like a 50-year-old kind of Indian woman, then there was like a 70-year-old white lady, then a harassed mom who looked like she was in her 30s.

And I was like really enjoying the demographic that we hit, spanning generations. Everyone was very nice to me. Everyone was so nice in the garden center. They say things like, oh, you've had fun, haven't you? I was like, yeah? Do you know what I mean? It's a really nice. It's a really nice back and forth.

And my balcony is stunning now. Stunning. So I'm ready for spring. The fact that's giving you life gives me life. How wonderful. Can't be a great balcony, mate. Well, I just think that it's important that we stay in spring, right? April is, as Gardner's World told me this weekend, as Monty said, the month of flowers, right?

So everyone rushes into wanting it to be June, July. But no, spring is something to be treasured, and that's very much the month of April. It's a time where pure divine anticipation and hope are fervorantly in the air. Nice. You know what I'm saying?

Nice. Would that be you as a season? Absolutely. And it's my birthday month. Right. You just are. It feels like when the flowers come out, it's a reminder that great things can happen

and that the thaw of winter is over. Yes, yes. It's very UK-orientated view. on seasons, which I respect, because obviously that's our life. Yeah, and that's why we appreciate them so much. Because if you're living in L.A. And you just have a really sunny climate all year round, then by the time it gets to spring, you don't really fucking notice.

We've been through a harsh winter. Sign me up. Sign me up. You just want to go live in the sun, don't you? You don't care about seasons. Sign me up. Listen, all I'm saying is, there's still seasonal shifts at the equator. They're just very, bro, and the sun's just chilling.

I feel at least give me a season of seasonlessness. Please, no. A season of seasonless. Yes, that is good. Over here, I hear these stories every time. Oh, the winter, you need to go through the depths of darkness to understand the true meaning of the sun. Firstly, we get like maximum a month of sun.

In this country, we don't get a month of sun. We get more than that. We get about three months of sun. You wish that is wild to me. It's April and we're sitting basking in the sun today. This is the first sunny day. It was literally, it was almost, people were being warned. two days ago about like a

like a game shifting storm. There was a bit of a storm actually. There was a wind butt of yesterday. That's true actually. But if it's sunny today, right, in April. And then we have April, May, June, July, August. That's five months of sun. Makita, we had a record this year

of the longest continuous days of rain. I think it's like in recent memory in the UK. Yeah. Oh, look. Look, I'm not even trying to hate. Listen, everyone goes on about London and the sun. We've done this on Missing me about 85,000 times. I get it.

It's lovely. And if we're lucky, you're right, two months, maybe three months, that would be a dream, a normal season. But all I'm saying is that isn't the norm for other places in the world. That's all I'm saying. I understand. I don't want the seasons to give me extra emotional suffering. Well, I think there is something in the fact that people think that because it's like in summer there's no worries.

It's like, no, no, no. Exactly. Well, this is the thing is it's like we're going to be miserable. And if I'm going to look, we're all going to be miserable, yeah. Like, we're all going to suffer. A lot of life is suffering. I'm just saying, can I do it by the equator? Can I suffer by the equator?

Now I'm being dead serious, bro. Okay. What I'm saying is, if the weather was better in Europe, I'm not sure they would have gone and colonised the world. That's what I'm saying. Okay, what a great way to end that point. Wow. So I saw a video recently of a guy,

I think his name is Nesima in Yang, and he is, well, the podcast itself covers like science-backed fitness, nutrition, and health content. And he's talking about, UVB absorption, UVB absorption and slowing vitamin D synthesis into the skin, right?

So he's coming from a, yeah, like a nutritional angle and he's talking about data in variation of like how particular vitamins, particularly vitamin D, sink into melanated skin compared to lesser melanated skin. Bloody interesting, though. This guy, right, every time I hear stuff when I go on holiday,

Everyone's going to, Jordan, put on sun cream, you're going to burn. Black people can burn. I know black people can burn, right? I hear it. Anyway, this guy comes along and he goes, obviously it requires more UV rays for sun to sink into melanated skin. That is just a scientific reality, which is why people nearly equate to have dark skin and people further away from it have lighter skin.

So then a lot of the sun protection is because of the rates of skin cancer in Australia, right? But the reason why the rates are so high in Australia is because it's full of white people who came from Europe. Yes, quite. Indigenous people, the people of that land are dark-skinned. That's what you're supposed to look like. You're so right. This is interesting. What it bugged me out was the guy then said, so the UV-ray measurement that's healthy for a person isn't measured,

especially in Europe, for black skin. We should, of course, put on sun protection. Black people can still get skin cancer and black people can still burn in the sun. I've literally burnt in the sun. Yeah, I was on your case with sunscreen in Sri Lanka. Yeah, yeah. I'm not, I really want to be clear. I'm not saying.

we shouldn't wear sunscreen. This is another thing to be clear. Like, I don't, I don't sunbathe like that. I know you don't. No, we don't. Me and you... I'm not boffed, mate. Jade and Phoebe could lie there for days.

I'm reading in the shade, boss. Do I mean? I'm living like a true sun-based, sunbound animal. It's true. In Antigua, they're like, only white people and idiots go out in midday sun. Yeah, what, you're going to roast in the midday. Good luck, brother. Yeah, get in that pool.

Oh, I've got sun town lines. Yeah, we know. We don't get that level of UV rate in the UK. No, we don't. And that's why every black person in England's depressed. Not joking, that's sweeping generalisation. But yes, right. So this is a time of hope, though, and anticipation.

And I have a lot of pregnant friends right now. Or at different stages. Literal babies are like metaphysical, because I'm about to write another book. Literal babies in their bellies. I won't name names. And that is just, that does just breed anticipation and hope. And so I have been feeling like that, like just that lovely springing, new life energy.

You know, we're going to have a whole new generation of babies by the end of the year, Jordan, which is exciting and fun. But then I watched that TV show, this incredible drama on BBC called Babies with Papa Esidu and Chauvin, who I didn't know about, I haven't seen her in anything else, but Jordan, she is outstanding in this television show. Written by Stefan Goh Wacheschi, he's so brilliant. And this is interesting because this is a TV show about the heartbreak of hope. And this show is about pregnancy.

loss. I've never seen this depicted on television before. And I, as I've discussed, I've gone through abortion in my life, but I've never had a miscarriage, but I have so many friends, sometimes multiply, and some of these people now have healthy babies. And I think, if I'm honest, Jordan, I have to, I should probably say that I don't think I've ever really taken it as seriously as I needed to when my friends have gone through miscarriages. I think I have been swept up in the sort of diffusing, slightly dismissive energy that can occur throughout the NHS and private health care when it comes to having a miscarriage. And that is depicted so well in this show. She goes into this doctors to say, like, is there anything I can do to prepare myself for pregnancy because

we've lost two babies? And he's like, how old are you? And she's like, 34. And he's like, listen, you might have another miscarriage. And you might have another one. And they might have another one. And we don't really know. And she said, okay, can you tell me why my babies keep dying? And he was like, no, I don't know. You seem perfectly healthy. So there's a lot of confusion and angst and just fucking devastating loss and pain. And they really show that in this TV show.

And it's just, he's so good at writing reality, Stefan. He did him and her with Russell Tovey and Sarah Solomani. And then he did mum with Leslie Manville. And he's just great at writing dialogue, whether it's. It'd be like the real conversation that a couple in a seven-year relationship would actually have. Do you know what I mean?

Like how they would actually talk to each other. I think you should watch it. I think you'd love it. It's pretty hardcore. Yeah, I like that. I like kind of realism in shows. That's a bit of me about. But yes, it's not even just like realism.

It's like the actual way people talk to each other. The way a phone call actually sounds. Like that kind of. Is that not realism? I guess that is realism. No, do people who can, yeah, who can bridge the gap between performance and script and life, and you feel like it's like excavating something that you, or you could quite literally be in that conversation that's really powerful.

It's hard to write dialogue, hard to write good dialogue. And when you're thinking about, like, you know, the devastation of miscarriage and what it does to a partnership and then going back into that anticipation and hope, if and when you get pregnant again, it's like a whole, it's such a difficult cycle to stay in. Yeah, I really struggle to reconcile the fact that life isn't hinged around like the birth process in all its versions, whether it's period pain, whether that's miscarriages, abortions, paternity, maternity, leave. Anything in and around, the bringing in of life, I feel like the entirety of the world system should be hinged on making that as comfortable, enjoyable and... fulfilling as possible, you know, and I think, like we mentioned actually at the start of the year, in terms of like the female movements around the globe that are pushing against the expectation of motherhood.

And actually, another thing, I haven't seen the drama yet, but I did just watch another show called something bad is going to happen. And those two together, I saw someone say, is quite an interesting indictment of marriage as a concept. It feels like there's these, the expectations of women in society are being pushed against in this current. generation. Not that they weren't before, but I spoke to a friend literally last week about their, give them giving birth. They got two children and the first one was like, you know, perpetual, just like ignorance to their situation. Wouldn't believe the mother that she was in pain, wouldn't believe her that she was having contractions, wouldn't believe her that she was in labour,

wouldn't give her an epidural, in a ridiculously long labour. I don't know, it's just, you know, it's funny that some people will be like, why are we not having more kids? Like, well, I can think of a few reasons why. Yes, that was a fucking lady. But I also think that there is, you know, there are a lot of statistics and facts about the way black women are treated. Yeah, specifically. The lady in this show is a white woman.

And she's also essentially being mistreated. But, you know, this is not, this is not to say that we aren't both very aware of the hardworking, dedicated, competent, brilliant doctors and nurses and midwives that work for the NHS. Like, thank fuck for the NHS. But I don't think you can hide from the amount of neglect. stories that you hear. Like, I think basically the nuance of each patient gets lost in how stretched the NHS is.

Yes, 100%. Do you know what I mean? There's something that, like, whether that be a black woman screaming in pain or a white woman going through a miscarriage, each woman needs something different. 100%. Like, and, you know, it would be wonderful if we didn't, yeah, didn't have like overstretched, you know, a lot of the time, again, I don't know specifically around the birth process, but I know that my recent experiences with people close to me being.

in hospital is there's all these things about doctors only being in for like three or four days of that week and then they change to a different hospital or then they have to like constantly refer the notes from the previous doctor and then sometimes people are getting rescanned because there's some miscommunication. I don't know enough about this to really to really this is my experience only but it feels like as though obviously if there was more was there an investment or like more focus on making that whole experience like building and providing and and championing. It's tricky because people are balancing books, but I think what we're talking about is giving people a sense of warmth and purpose. Well, yeah, didn't you tell me that there is sometimes a drive for women to have C-section,

cesarean sections? The last year in England was the first year in, I guess, recent records, that there were more babies born via Cesarian than naturally. Yeah, that's wild. And half of them pre-planned. Yeah. Again, I have not been through birth. I can't imagine the terror of knowing that your buddies about to do that. Yeah. So I don't want to step out of turn here because I don't know what it's like.

Did you, did say that there is a thing that, was there a news, was there a news report about miscarriage leave? Yeah. It's an interesting time to talk about babies, the TV show, because Northern Ireland has just become the first place in the UK where a woman and her partner are entitled to two weeks of paid leave if they experience a miscarriage at any stage of pregnancy. Wild. Hopefully that's coming to us.

But that's fantastic news. Thank you, Northern Ireland. Fantastic news. The base level. Yeah, do you know what I'm saying? Just like minimum. Yeah, literally. Because also we should talk about men as well within the process of a miscarriage.

Like, for instance, Ticey, Jordan, cousin Tyson, had four or five miscarriages before her healthy baby girl. Right? And that's not just happening to Tyson. That's also happening to her partner. That happened to Salasi as well. And I think we all did gravitate towards comforting Tyson and not really thinking about what Salasi had been through. And within the show with babies, Papa Essie. to do his character is sort of holding it in a different way because he doesn't feel like

it's all his pain so he sort of makes a joke about it people keep saying i'm sorry for your loss and he's like oh what loss my wallet and he sort of keeps making this same structured joke to sort of protect his own pain oh wow it's such good writing that's what i mean stephan yeah yeah yeah just sounds like a very very typically male response yeah there is an emotional burden and also just want to say one more thing about stephan's writing he allows his protagonist to be flawed So you are going through this journey with Papa Esidu, but he also has this kind of historic, tricky relationship with his best male friend.

And every time they go to the pub, he's a bit of a bully. And it's sort of ingrained in their relationship, and it always has been. And I like that. Thank you for not making him perfect just because he's going through something difficult. Do you know what I mean? No, well, there isn't a thing.

And also, I feel like, again, obviously, you know what I'm like with looking at trends through like as an objective. No, but I mean another thing that comes up, a lot is men cheating on their partners when their partners are pregnant or even if they've just given birth or in and around that time and like of course the immediate response is how abhorrent to to do that when someone's at their most vulnerable you're trapped the woman's trapped you know but i have to think like what is like what what is the wiring that or not even wiring what's the conditioning that leads to that there's got to be an emotion underneath it like a genuine

in a genuine, whether that's fear or a fear of abandonment, a fear of whatever it is. Bingo. Right. I mean, come on. Bingo. We both have not had babies, so we both have an experience to be in a relationship where you have a new baby in it. I imagine it's quite a shock for everyone involved.

And I think maybe that statistic is based on this idea that like, it's just not enough fucking love to go around at that point. Like, all that. That's so wild, though. This is why I feel like it's so mad that we have such like this whole nuclear family thing. Like why can we not just be more open about like, how can't we have a small village raising children? I just think it's so...

And also, can I just say while I'm on this yet, another reason why I suspect outside of a fear of abandonment, I would like to say now and miss me, I want to try and reconnect men to magic. Oh. Because I read a lot about witches. I've got at least five witch friends, right? Like witches are in right now.

They're like, they're vibes in. Phoebe's a witch, right? Yes, she is. Like it's vibes, right? And that idea with like a relationship with divinity or something beyond us, right? I just think like, what's the equivalent? Like, where the wizards are? It's true.

It's totally where are the wizards? You're so right. Do you know what I'm saying? Where can I go to my little, where can I go to my circle or something? No, but I do feel like all of this world is aligned to the, to the female. Like I want a man to feel connected spiritually deeply to that child. Like you've created life, brother. Like, you should be tapped in right now, like on some, ooh, like, I'm just, you know, that's godly.

Whereas I feel like it feels like we're almost an imposter, you know? Like we're out, we're looking at something from the outside. Okay, so when are you going to start Jordan's magic monthly men's stop? I can't wait. We need some new wizards, bro, because like there's not really any popping even on TV or nothing. There's, you know, a couple of famous ones. Do you know who I would say is a wizard? Who?

Simon Amstall. I thought you're going to say I was. Yeah, you too. Any of that, it's just because you're both very connected. I think me and Simon would say, but I saw a show, by the way. I never mentioned it on this podcast, but I did. It was fantastic. I went to see that show.

Anyway, back to miscarriage. Just went this part of the show. No, no, no. I love that we went from miscarriage to wizardry. I just really hope because of realizing my own sort of lack of understanding of what so many of my friends have been through. You know, Lily's talked about it very openly, as we said, Tyson and so many other friends that I have. And I just really hope that every man and woman that has been through this experience of losing a baby will feel

seen and felt and understood by this TV show. And I think it's really important that Stefan's written it. And I'm just, I felt really proud of the BBC. And there's nothing, there's nothing better than that, by the way. I think that's, that is the real true purpose of, of art. Telling a story with truth within it. But seeing yourself in that space is just so, oh man. There's been two or three times when I've watched something and been like,

I actually didn't even realize that someone else could feel that way too. It's like the best thing about art. That's what Oprah says when she reads the colour purple for the first time. And it says, dear God, I am 14 years old. Why is this happening to me? And the first thing she says is, oh, my God, someone else has this story. That's what books are, that's what stories are meant to do, make you go, oh shit, I see myself in this or I don't.

And that's all so interesting. For something as painful as miscarriage, which, again, I can't even begin to imagine what that experience is like to then just have that reminder that you're not alone in that experience. Exactly. Thank you. Thank you, the BBC. We're going to have a little break.

We're going to come back and talk about how. Hot doctors. Okay. Because that's, miss me. Dive into the bonkers world of David Mitchell and Robert Webb and listen to their BBC comedy show. From nonsensical maths quiz number wang to finding out what James Bond is really like as a party guest.

There's something for everyone. Hello, MOTT AAT. Yes, that's right. This is the Ministry of Things that are apparently true. Yes, we do exist. The rumours are true, ironically. Start listening to that Mitchell and Webb sound The Complete Series 1 to 5

wherever you get your audiobooks. Okay, we're back from the break. Yes. You don't have to pretend that you've got energy today, by the way. I know you're knackered. No, it's bad. I hate it, though, because you know when you can't sleep and you're like, I've got so much dude tomorrow.

I was woken up by a guy doing revving his motorbike at about 3 in the morning for some reason. Yes, I woke up last night at 3 in the morning and I didn't go back to sleep for 2 hours. I was like, God, I'm holding quite a lot of anxiety. I didn't realize. So exhausting. So we went to this beautiful school.

I just wanted to talk about them because they were so welcoming to us. A primary school in West Ham to do what we do is we go in. We get kids skipping. It's always incredibly fulfilling and rewarding. It starts with an assembly and then we sort of talk about, you know,

dreaming bigger and jumping higher. And you hear the language that's used with these kids. They're so obedient as well. It's always, it's like, well, they did something where it's like, all hands up. And then everyone has to touch the floor. If you're here, touch the floor. If you're here, jump up.

And we were all doing it. I was like, this is how I should start my day. But this is the language that the teachers are using. Aspiration, confidence, creation and caring. And those are just, that's how I live. So, well done, curriculum and every hardworking teacher. And you get to be called Miss, which is great. Miss Oliver?

No, they don't say Miss Oliver. It's just Miss, Miss, Miss, Miss. And I'm like, God, I'm Miss. You're like, grow up? Yeah, grow up. No, it was a really good day. It was amazing. And then there's like all these like collages of like black seamstresses

with like huge biographies of who these people were. I just, I'm very... Far cry from all years. Absolutely. I am assured in the future of the young people in this country every time I go to a primary school and see how hard the teachers are working and just the incredibly powerful language that is being used.

I don't know, actually. I said a lot. Try, primary school, I was in London. So I actually seemed to remember it being pretty woke. Where did you go? In Neesden. But I mean, like, I just remember I loved Hinduism when I was a kid because there was loads of Hindus at my school

and we got to learn about all the gods. And Davali was literally lit. Tavali was a big deal and we learned all about it properly. I would say that for our generation of school teachers. That was great. I just remember being very multicultural. I also remember briefly being in like, the school choir, which again is like a big cultural shift.

There's a woman called Barbara who used to shut up to the end of assembly and she had these glasses on this guitar and she'd put her foot on this chair and go, okay, who wants to come to the after school choir class? And then like literally no one would put their hand up. And she went, there'll be free biscuits. And then we all went. We literally all went. There'll be free biscuits.

And the next thing we're doing like an inter-school choir collaboration at the Royal Festival Hall. What? Yeah, I remember that one as a kid. It's true. The choir ship would take you to nice places. We did a concert somewhere quite exciting. Maybe it's Royal Albert Hall or something like that.

Yeah, mad things. That was fun shit. Are we going to talk about sexy doctors from throughout the years? But I don't feel like you've watched enough medical dramas. Well, were you supposed to be talking about psycho doctors? Well, you said to me that you had done the research. No, no. You've done the research.

I believe you. I made, on the research call, I made a sweeping generalisation, as I sometimes do, that I say that there's a remarkable proportion of doctors, specifically surgeons, that can be, that are psychopaths. Have psychopathic tendencies and traits, yes. No, but can I just say, when I say psychopath, there's a whole spectrum, genuinely. You can be a psychopath and just be like, you can be the head of a business. Can you tell me the traits of a psychopath?

Just while we're here. The typical traits would be like obsession over, like, status. symbols, right? So like big, like symbolic material representations of status. Power and status. Okay. Scientifically, a psychopath has an underfiring of neurons so that amygdala, which is the fear receptor in your brain. So that's why they struggle to empathize with people because they don't fear the consequence of what they're saying. They can't process fear in the same way. And then I suppose also that works well if you're a doctor and you are literally slicing through someone's heart. Yeah. So that's what I'm saying. So with.

surgeons, it can be, because they're literally playing with life or death. And if anything, you want somebody who isn't going to be dictated by fear. You know what's like, I'm really scared to do this. I don't want to hurt you. You need someone who was like, cold as ice. The reason why it was up and year about my specific and sweeping definition of psychopathies, since then, it appears that there's been more specificity around what can be considered, what was previously considered psychopathic can actually just be something, I think was the term, was the dark triad. So there are like three different personal. types that can exist separately and also together.

Yeah, you told me about this. I like this. For example, I read a book called Confessions of a sociopath, which is fascinating female sociopath, who she claims that a sociopath was a word invented by psychopaths to seem more sociable. I love the idea that a psychopath would make on the word sociopaths so that they're more socially accepted. Okay, the dark triad narcissism, psycho.

Oh, wow. Hold on. Sorry, I've got this wrong. Okay. So psychopathy is part of the dark triad. fuck I've got this wrong. Okay, narcissism, macafelianism. That's the triad, McAvelianism.

And it's just one theory, just to be clear. The psychopathy. And what's the third one? Just so everyone knows to check at home for all three. Narcissism. As a disclaimer, like, I read a lot of this stuff, so it's not coming from nothing. But I do sometimes, I'm a little bit off,

so just apologies for being human. Jordan, you're well-read, well-researched, knowledgeable ramblings. What makes this show so beautiful? Don't you go changing? But can I say just quickly, I'd happily do more to speak more on this. But I've had, I think, interactions with both, right? Psychopaths and people with NPD.

Is that narcissistic personality disorder? Yeah. And in my opinion, this is a mental take. But I'm more scared of people with NPD because they have access to some form of emotion. So it's harder, I think, to notice that you're around somebody with that. I went for a phase when I was younger of like reading about loads of things. books about psychopathy because I just, I don't know, man. Were you worried that you may possess some of the traits?

Oh, I have, no, of course. We all, I would, I was gross by the day. We all have psychopathic traits, of course. I don't know whether I have psychopathic traits. Okay, narcissistic traits. Narcissism being a massive element of psychopaths. Sorry, just the reality of having an ego. I'm not a fucking narcissist and I don't have any ego.

I didn't say you were a narcissist. I didn't say that. I'm joking. I can be a narcissist and I just have an ego. No, but can I just say, sorry, just to answer your question. because I keep going around the houses because I'm so tired. But the first rule of psychopath test is if you're considering that you're a psychopath, you're not. A psychopath would never even dwell for one moment on the idea.

They don't care. They don't care. They'd be incredibly convincing. No, because they're incredibly charming. That's one of the first. Honestly, if you haven't read psychopath test by John Ronson, strong recommend. Yeah, I did a job with him once. The men who stare at goats, he wrote.

Yes, that guy. Yeah. Yeah. We must end. We were going to do hot doctors, but really all we had was McSteamy and McDreamy. Okay, who's your hot doctor from who might be a psychopath? He's not a psychopath, but it would be Carter from ER. Noah Wiley.

Big crush. Big early ER crush. And he is not a psychopath. He's a good man. He's a great guy. What do you think about JD from Scrubs? Oh, arrogant bastard. But everything's that.

Anything Zach Brath plays, I think is an arrogant bastard. Jesus Christ. For steam. I will take down Zach Braff. I will not fight the corner of Zach Braff because I have no idea who he is and he makes some weird films. But J.D. and Scrubs, leave him alone.

There is not an arrogant bone in that man's body. He's a dickhead. Vives. J.D. and Turk, great doublet. You did not watch Scrubs. I did not watch Scrubs. I did not watch Scrubs. I did watch Scrubs.

I used to throw to Scrubs on T4. I'll dare you. I am Scrubs. How dare you? I gave you scrubs. I gave you scrubs. He gave me scrubs. And we'll just end with Charlie from Casualty.

What a guy. Oh, okay. That's a shout. Shout out Bill Lawrence, by the way. That's my Donnie. He wrote Scrubs and Ted Lassow. Oh, very good. What a guy.

Shit, actually. That's a wacky genius. And Cougatown. So he does quite like that kind of fast-paced crazy comedy. Yes, funny. It's kind of bit green-wingy. Shout out Green Wing. Green Wing.

Great show. Fancyed Stephen Thing and Me, Bob, a lot. And the Ginger Guy. What's he called? called Julian. He was cool. Julian Rindtut. That's it.

Oh my God. Thank you, Nat. Charlie from Casualty is a nurse and not a doctor. Thank you very much. Thank you. I want Charlie from Casualty fans coming for me.

All right, well, this is where I leave you, Harry Potter. I'm going to get out to that sunshine. I'm joking. I'm of course going into more work things to make more decks. I bet you are. Keep on dreaming.

Keep on making shit happen. Look forward to that new deck. That's right. But I'll see you on Monday for listen bitch the theme is hoarding hoarding that's H-O-A-R-D not W-O

H-O-H-O Yeah it's not W-H-O-R-E It's not just hoarding Oh yeah sorry that would be whoring It's not whoring I will see you and the world Then don't go changing Jordan Don't you fucking dare go changing

Thanks for listening to Miss me This is a Persefonica production for BBC Sounds. If you've been affected by anything raised in this episode, go to BBC.co.com.uk forward slash action line. Oh, hello. I'm Joe Marla, traitor hunter, reader of minds, and completely unqualified.

Have you ever wanted to get deep into the heads of celebrities? Ever wanted to see some totally unregulated psychological testing in action? Welcome to my office, where I'll be making famous people uncomfortable in the name of science and light entertainment. Joe Marla will see you now.

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