Miss Me? - Which Witch Hunt?

Episode Date: November 20, 2025

Miquita Oliver and Jordan Stephens discuss private member’s clubs, sober confidence, and remember their friend Caroline Flack.This episode contains very strong language, adult themes, and upsetting scenes. Credits: Producer: Natalie Jamieson Technical Producer: Will Gibson Smith Assistant Producer: Caillin McDaid Production Coordinator: Rose Wilcox Executive Producer: Dino Sofos Commissioning Producer for BBC: Jake Williams Commissioners: Dylan Haskins & Lorraine Okuefuna Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Hello, it's Ray Winston. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4. History's toughest heroes. I've got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough. And that was the first time anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head. Tough enough for you?

Subscribe to history's toughest heroes wherever you get your podcast. This episode of Miss Me contains very strong language, adult themes, conversations about substance abuse, and us harking back to the heyday of our once starry lives. Hi, I'm happy to just say, I'm a bit giggily today, so I'm just going to... That's good. I was going to lay that out. Why are you giggly? I don't know, I just feel good. Did you get laid?

Is that what it is? No, I had a really nice morning with them. Ben from my team brought her. Two people in my team have kids at the moment, Phoebe, who's my new assistant. My new autumn, Phoebe, she's the best. She's just started working with us. She has a one-year-old and then Beth who does my hair

she's got a one and a half year old called Winona and she was here today just good energy in my house today it was really nice Oh so you've picked up like a childish approach to life quite quite

Yeah it's good I feel just like It's just good vibes in my house You know what That's fantastic Has anything else Has anything else added to this feeling Is it purely just being

in a presence of children in the morning Possibly the soccer Possibly you know Being like The number one striker I could not take that glory away from the girls that work really hard to actually score goals. What do you mean?

How many girls were on your team? This is the football team I was talking about joining last week. I did not know that this tournament goes on until the end of January. So I'm really in this. There was a few. You thought it was a one-off or maybe two. Yeah. But I'm in this now.

And actually, you kind of, I kind of need to be in it because I want to get better and I want to get braver. You know, this space is amazing where this tournament's being held. Because it's not for profit. This is like a new space that they've opened for community and creativity and sport. And it's free for anyone to go. Where? In like Elephant Castle.

Oh, cool. In this brilliant old building called Manor Place, something. As we know, there are no community centres left in this city or all around the country. I mean, I'm saying that. I mean, they're not all gone, but so many have closed down. And it does affect the way people hang out with each other and come together. and I would have never got my shit together to go down there and see that this was going on

if I had said yes to joining this football team so it was really you really need to come play no sorry you really need to come see me play I'm good at football I don't think I've seen you play but I bet you're amazing I'm not I mean amazing is a stretch I used to be really good but what are you in like under somethings no I had trials for like team I had trials when I was a kid

it's funny because there's like an in joke amongst men I think that nearly every bloke will say at some point usually when mashed up, that they had trials for some team. I had Charles at Everton when I was young. Yeah, I could have gone pro if it wasn't for my dodgy knee, actually. I was almost one phone call away from Arsenal. For absolute glory.

Who were you? I did have Charles for Brighton when I was kid. But that's so cool that you enjoyed the experience of playing football. I mean, sport has been a focus of yours, so you might not have felt maybe as unprepared as someone else. But was there anything about football specifically that shocked you? The gladiatorial element of the setup. because we're playing in a cage.

You weren't into that? I was like, this gives it a whole kind of more like, to the death energy. Basically, the first team we played, they were good, but we won 12-4. Bang. Did you score? No, but I did a lot of facilitating.

It turns out I'm a good wingman. I'm a good winger. Is that the right? Yeah, wingman has other connotations. Yeah, wingman's, you know, just like trying to help someone pull. I'm good at that too? you're good at that too

you're good at that too you're just good at wings I like to fly you like to fly so you're on the wing I love that so you're basically by the edge of the cage edge of cage where you're just encouraging people from the side so when they were like shaking the cage

I was like this is fucking intense but I kind of liked it you know but I have to say to the other girls on the team that really did like so that we've got two girls that like play and then we've got Savannah who I believe is at the star of our team. She's so great. That's cool.

Yeah, and we're just going for it all the way to the top. But then the second game was a, okay, was against the team. Eight beautiful black girls who weren't smiling, who play often. It was very serious in that cage. And you got rinsed. And if I'm really honest, me and Kay Sang didn't go on the pitch that game. Ah, you whimped out. We really did.

We were like, you know, when people play and they don't look down. You know, it's like, ch-c-ch-ch-ch-ch-h- Like, that they were just like playing like it was deep they're balling out balling out and uh me and k saying were like it's actually not beneficial for our team for you and i to go on now and take someone like savannah off oh you're you tactically stayed away to have to avoid your presence and we still lost we still lost 18 6 but shikini 99 18 6 yeah it wasn't how long was this game 20 minutes that's bad it's a small pitch I mean these girls were serious no we these guys Girls were serious.

Was it only women in the tournament? I thought it was a mixed team. No, it's a female tournament. No, it's a football tournament at this new space and it's girls, but it's also boys on, like, other days. Amazing. Yeah. You've got to come down. I will, but I will say, because I know you love your history.

The history of women's football is really interesting. I wonder the origins. I wonder what it looked like in the early 19th century. Apparently, and this is just one piece I'll say, women's football was popularized in the early 1900s by a woman called Netty Honeyball, which was a pseudonym, of course. Nettie Honeyball, and it was really, really, really popular. And then I don't know what happened, but it's really interesting.

I'll tell you what happened. You'll be better at. Do you know what I mean? I'll tell you what happened. The world happened. Gatekeeping is what happens. Blocking happened. Patriarchy happened.

Oppression happened, yeah. Subjugation. That was what it was. But actually, what year did you say this was? I don't know why I was looking at it. but I just remember reading into this woman and it was just really fascinating because there is this idea

that women's football was like a new idea it's really really not a new idea it was really there were like riots and stuff man it was like it was serious business well I suppose it sounds like it was either around the time of suffragettes or pre yeah 1895 thank you now 1895 right so that means that we were out there

playing football before we could even fucking vote oh yeah no but I mean like going into that like asking for more but actually we were out there getting more before. So just call... I'm glad you enjoyed it. Just call me Wrighty. Just call me righty.

Was he a striker? Yes, Ian Wright was a striker. Yeah, he was. But he wasn't a winger. But, you know... Oh, yeah, I'm not a striker. Sorry. Who are some legendary wingers?

Oh, God. I mean, I'm an Arsenal fan, so I'm biased. But right now, Bokai, Sacco is arguably, yeah. Saka's a winger. Saka's a winger. Call me Saka. Saka, call you Saka. Sure.

Sure. Yeah, it was great. It was really good. And I just had an absolutely fantastic week. Like, I kept waking up going, what's going on? I'm like, oh, yeah, the time of my life. Like, it's a good time to be alive. Yeah, man.

Thank God. Space to feel grateful, that's nice. Absolutely. And how did you, because you are sporty, was your body all right the next day? Because for some people, especially football, that's high intensity. Like, some people, like, can't walk the next day. No, I was fine because I trained so much. I trained like three times a week

and I played squash last week as well. Come on, Keats. Let's go. Just a casual tournament. Say Les. All right, calm. Hurt in? Nah.

Ready. Nah, bro. I got up with this squash. What? I did. Did you? You got on the next day and played squash? Yes.

No, you're an icon. Just to go back to the community space that they'd built. it did make me think about how we spent time when we were younger and I would say that we did spend quite a large portion of our lives in members clubs, not because we're assholes because what's the other reason? It's cool. Because we were cool and it was cool.

I know why me and Lily were in members clubs because we were brought up in them. I don't think you were. I definitely was not brought in members clubs. I mean, when I say brought up in members clubs, I mean, I was actually brought up on the doll with occasional visits to ground shows when my mom was there and I needed to go pick up the keys.

Yeah. You know, that was a kind of new incarnation of the members club, which is around the 80s, where members clubs were sort of trying to become something different, i.e. letting women in, to maybe the early 17th century. That's when members clubs first started in this country, early 17th century, and they were a place for,

which sounds, you know, completely, you know, convivial and important. They were a place for... What a word, convivial. Highly exclusive places offering aristocratic and wealthy men a refuge from work and family. Refuge is crazy. Refuge.

The word refuge in that context is crazy. Get me into this club. Release me from the shackles of outside attention. Of this fucking family I created. Status. Yeah. I think obviously there was a lot of fascism,

misogyny, running throughout these places, these establishments. but it was where the powerful came to rub shoulders with the other powerful people in the world and there is something about power meeting power creating more power that has happened historically that is that is history we've tried to add elements of socialism into it but ultimately it is just power exchanging power to create more power me and phoebe we're trying to find like juicy stories and salacious shit but obviously there are none because it's all really private really secret

Yeah, but yeah, members clubs, I'm sure there's all types of huge, massive country-sized, international, global, you know, decisions that have been made over a fucking drink on a Wednesday night. Absolutely. And I suppose I did find probably the history of what went down in Groucho's probably quite exciting to be close to you. Because let's be honest, there's nothing that interesting or special. It's sort of four-floor townhouse in Soho. Oh, as a space, yeah. isn't but for me I would distinctly remember like bear in mind with Rizzle kicks my life changed in a month you know what I'm saying like it was it was July 2011 at the beginning of July we were like

a fringe up and coming introducing band and by the end of July we were like top 10 and we stayed that for like months yeah which is when you started to pay attention to my existence which was nice you want to come to grow shows yeah but for me I was like I think you're ready I was seeing famous people that I'd seen on, that I'd seen on telly and on film, like, you know, and I was like, whoa, that's cool. I remember a night, basically Harry Stiles finished X Factor, and

for some reason, he was suddenly our mate when he left. It's like he left X Factor and went into Grimmie's house. Yeah, because Grimmie was Radio One breakfast. What are you talking about? Oh, yeah, that's why. I was wondering, I was like, why the fuck did he want to hang out with us? No, obviously, they were friends as well, but I'm saying

that, like, Grimmy wasn't just like a random... That's true. Like, he at that point got the biggest job on radio. Yeah, and it was a very exciting time, you know, once. It wasn't a fucking joke, X Factor in 2010. No, it was the biggest thing in the world. And he was just with us all the time. Anyway, we were at the electric once on Portobello, me, Emily,

Grimmy and Harry and some other people. And then you turned up to meet them, not me. And I was like, what the fuck is Jordan doing here? And everyone was like, there's Jordan. We love Jordan. I was like, okay, yeah, we love Jordan. There's jokes. The electric, yeah.

Yeah, the electric. And then we all had a big Soho night went to look, Cassie. I can't remember what it's cool. Oh, my God. This was a banging place in Soho, people. That was a spot. I don't even know how to Google that.

I don't even know how to look for it. What was that called? I might have to call Lily. I'll ask you in a minute. Some great nights there. I think I met Frank Ocean there. Wow. With Grimmie.

Of course. What the fuck is the name of that place? I'm going to have to call Lily. Do you know what? If she doesn't answer, we'll call Grimmie. It's the cast of something. The Badega Negra. Badega Negra!

That was a spot. Oh, there's Lily. Sorry, it's fine. Where are you? I'm on the Euro stuff. Yeah, you are. Sorry, I just... We just needed to know the name

of the Mexican club that you had your 27th birthday at. No, your 28th. She's frozen. I can't remember. But you do know where I mean. No, it's fine. We just got it.

We remembered now. Something else to do. I'll text. to you. Bye. Okay. Golan facilitator. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it was exciting. It felt like actual real famous people were still wandering around Soho. Well, I can only remember my perspective on it as a young man, you know, so I probably have more of an affected attitude towards those kind of spaces. And the whole thing with these members' houses,

you know, there's been a lot of growth is a way of putting it, you know. So the doors are open and people might question that. But there was something exciting about, I mean, like being famous is like quite a unique experience, you know what I mean? Again, I'm sure many people aren't interested in that. But you know, if you are centre of attention, but being out in public can be quite nerve-wracking for what it's worth. So that space is, in that sense, is seen as like a safer space to

being. You can't take pictures and shit, you know what I mean? Like, you're a bit more protected. Yeah, but I think there's also an element of secrecy. And I think people find secrecy exciting. And there's something about the word members club that makes you go, oh, this is secret. I hate the word exclusive. But I think that that feeling of exclusive and secrecy just is very appealing to people when they're right in the sort of storm of things. That's what I mean. I feel they serve a purpose when they remove,

when they can add a level of comfort to just existing within a world that might just be looking at you because obviously our relationship with celebrity is pretty wild. But ultimately it's like a tax for exclusivity. Like you're saying I'm willing to pay this much a month to just feel. I don't want to get into it, but like it's like the food's not cheaper either. Like, you're going in going,

I'm going, uh, this is... No, Groucho straight up bankrupted me. Straight up. Like, straight up is like, a third of my bankruptcy was Groucho bills. I'm not joking, but that's my fault because I'd be like, I'll get it. I know. There's definitely a funny outside perspective of these houses. I've seen TikTok's kind of mocking the kind of conversations you hear in the houses

and stuff, and it is really funny. Yeah, yeah, because there are, it does attract a certain type of person, especially recently. But I guess I will say that ultimately anything that, any space that brings people together is is worth acknowledging and I guess it's up to us whether or not we're willing to pay Can I just say also can I just say

I'd never paid to be a member of Grouchos I got him because my uncle Bernie was on the door and that's why my mum used to get in as well 20 years previously I was just if anything carrying on the legacy of taking the piss

at Grouchos What a legend man RIP Bernie by the way Oh God yes our wonderful Bernie RIP he looked after us One thing I would like to say as well is that

I like that Groucho was undeniably the backdrop for these amazing cultural moments. And I guess me, you getting fucked up with all of our crew, maybe was a bit of a that moment. But the real moment was my parents' moment, which is Blur, Oasis, the BFA's, sorry, YBA. Yeah, British Fashion Awards, no. No, not the British Fashion Awards.

The young British artist movement where you've got like Tracy Ehrman and Matt Colleshaw and Damien Hirst. And then that mixing with like, Like a fashion at the time, which was at the time fucking banging and outrageous and exciting and creative. And then you mix that with blur and oasis and then throw in my mom and Lily Stan, you got a party. Yeah, wild. Well, I mean, what a time. I mean, we would only be up in the uproom, eating watsits and drinking ribena.

But we could feel exciting things were going on because we've just been waiting in the wings. I remembered a crazy night with Caroline there, actually. It was like a Christmas, Caroline Flack. It was a Christmas. and it was like one of those nights where just absolutely everyone was very happy and on one and I had a really great night. Literally just thinking about it because I watched the current documentary and I was trying to remember nights out with her and how much fun I used to have with her.

Yeah. How was a documentary? Obviously, it's really upsetting because you have to really deal with what her mum's gone through. And it's a story about a mum losing a daughter, which is easy to forget or has been. been easily forgotten by the British press, I would say. I saw a Channel 4 documentary about Caroline's life, which was also very difficult. But this is, I think, more about Caroline's death and her mother wanting answers. I won't go into all the ins and out.

It's like, you really should watch it, Jordan. It's great. Do you mean, sorry, just for clarity, when he says, discovers about the events in and around her passing? Yes. Yeah, yeah. That was really fucking, that's what hurts me the most. I mean, you know, again, like I had kind of lost,

I wasn't seeing Carolina as much in the last couple of years of her life, but like you, I spent a lot of time during my early 20s and went out a lot, went to festivals. Brought it to the Birdcage, actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Honestly, man, yeah. I was out with Flack a lot. There's a little circle around there that I love and still,

obviously I work a lot with Josie, one of her closest friends. Of course. Yeah, and Dawn. So, like, that gang, I was kind of like, I was often found myself with that lot. But that bit was really painful because I remember the pile on, the pile on with these assumed ideas

of what was happening ultimately in a troubled relationship and just the public decided and they had any idea what was going on. It was very tough to see that. Yeah, and I think when you're watching it, you sort of realise that there is this, it is like a witch hunt, Jordan.

And me and Phoebe were looking up, you know, what was a witch hunt in, let's say, the 13th century? It's the same shit. It's like, this woman, like, what did they say about witches? Women that had power that scared them. Hello, that's the same thing as a woman being a famous, successful person. And if you can't go to Caroline Flack's house or Lily Allen's house

and drag her out of the house and call her a witch and tie her to a tree and burn her, then you can do this instead. This is the modern version of witch hunting. And you know what's so upsetting, seeing all that stuff, I should make him want to cry, seeing all that stuff, seeing all that stuff the way they treated Caroline and then knowing that that's exactly what happened last year with Lily

all year, all year, over and over again. So what we're really talking about is Caroline Flack dying, losing her life and nothing changing, nothing. So that's what made me upset. I was like, wow, nothing's changed. Right, because you had the recent parallel of Lily. Just lived it with Lily and Lily has to hold it.

Find a place to hold it on her little shoulders, this heaviness of hate and anger and rage and vilification, it fucking tears people apart. Caroline lost her life because of it. And it's just like, nothing's, no one's looking at it. You're so right. I mean, I need to, obviously, I was had loads on this week, so I wasn't able to watch it.

I will watch a documentary. But we remember, you remember, Jay. You don't even need to watch a documentary. You remember those fucking articles. Yeah, listen, I mean, I was hoping that, like, the law brought in afterwards had given women more protection. from that kind of pressure. I don't know if they mention it.

Isn't there a law now Caroline's law, which prevents the press from being able to do that, like to camp and to hound? Yeah, but you don't feel like it, you don't feel like that's protected Lily at all. Hang on, Nat's just sent us, Caroline's law never actually passed. Wow, of course it did.

Oh, right. It was petitioned to protect women from the harassment of the press and the media. That's fucked. That's actually unbelievable. So that's why nothing's fucking changed. Yeah. Wow.

Not at all. It's also confusing when then Lily writes a genius piece of work and now they're applauding her and celebrating her from the sides, all the same papers that tore her down all last year. It's just like, oh, fuck off. It does, like, none of it makes sense. And I just started to feel like there was no, like... It's the psychology of it.

Like, I remember watching, maybe it was the Britney Dock or there was an exploration of Britney within another Dock, I can't remember. But there were these, you know, these paparazzi when they talk about, They interviewed the person who got that shot of Britney Spears when she was bald. Right. And it's really, really like, I don't even know what the word of, chilling. It's chilling.

The level of disconnection needed from another human being's existence because this idea of fame or celebrity creates this idea of a person that separates them or perhaps in some people's minds that they are a fair target, yeah. You know what I mean? You've decided to be in everyone's face. So now you're a fair target for, you know, harassment, basically. We are actively trying to find you in a compromising situation to damage your career. That is disgusting.

It's like being hunted. You're right. You were talking about the witch hunting is fucking real and mad to hear. Yeah, I thought it was important that I made that mirroring distinction today. I was like, Jesus Christ, this actually is that. But it was a really good documentary. And I'm really happy that Caroline's mother made it. Shall we have a break, my love?

Let's have a break. Let's have a break, your little new hairstyle, looking nice over him. Thanks, babes. Hello, it's Ray Winston. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's toughest heroes. I've got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough. And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head.

Tough enough for you? Subscribe to history's toughest heroes wherever you get your podcast. Welcome back from the break. To what, Jordan? To miss me. Caroline's the reason I first ended up in the papers. Well, she'll do that. She would have done that quite easily.

Tell me about that night. Yeah, so just to give an example of like the induction into the world of, again, we were speaking about how much heaviness it can come with. But ultimately, I was in a flat share in Islington with Harley and two of our mates from Brighton. And we had suddenly blown up in one month and we've ended up at the Brit Awards. We're just like, me and Harley just have no idea what's going on. Were you like 19? Yeah. We were young and we were just.

surrounded by all these artists we'd listen to watched we the drinks were free we were like what the fuck we ended up at this after party and i think i remember dancing of like florence welsh like i don't i think it was such something yeah just call me 2010 yeah yeah i was having a time my life and i met like will i am it was like it was nuts anyway i was with grimy and i was with caroline i remember and we went to scotch which is a bar and i was like keats this is one thing I say, you know, often, nowadays, people hear me and see me talk about sobriety all the time. Because it was pre the intensity of social media, I don't think people understand how fucked up we used to get. Like, I was blind drunk. Then I wake up the next day and there's

a text on my phone saying, I hope you got home all right. And it was Caroline. Bear in mind, I've just seen this woman on television. Like, I don't know. Do you know what I mean? She's just been on the biggest show. I was like, oh my God. And I ran into the, I ran into the, I ran into to the other room. I was like, boys, boys, look, look who texts me. And they were like, what the fuck? And then we, I remember we like Googled my name. And then these pictures came up of like me, Harley, Grimmie and Caroline in this cab.

I can't even fucking remember being in this cab. Right. And now somewhat iconic picture of you, Caroline, Grimmy and Holly in a cab. I'm officially in that world now. And then the other pictures from the parties came out. And it was so close to me not being in that world. I just distinctly remember that being one of my first, like the doors opening into suddenly spending time

and being noticed by people who I'd just seen and heard of before you know, it was really surreal. Yeah, no, I hear you. But it was fun, man. She liked a party. Yeah, she did. This was before it got more heavy

because it does get heavy. Lovely that Caroline messages say, are you okay? It's probably because of how paralytic you were, though, to be honest. I like to think it's because of how good I looked in a suit, but sure. Absolutely.

That is when you changed, I feel. I remember that year. Yeah, I mean, I'd never worn a suit like that before, man. about it. Can you imagine being paralytically drunk? Not only in public now, but where cameras are. Like, I can't make of anything worse, but at the time it was like, let's just...

No, literally, it was, I... The fear in my soul after these nights out. Oh, you did deal with that. I'd get home, I'd wake up in the morning and be like, I am fucked, and I'd have to look online to see where I'd been or what I'd done. Oh, my God. You're in half of these pictures.

I don't know what you're shocked about. I'm like, that sounds awful. You were there right next to me. Honestly. No, but it's kind of what I think what it is is I just, I find it's so long ago now

and it's such a different time. I also, it's not like there's another version of it. It's not like there are the new younger pop stars, let's say, of this country now that are out getting photographed and so, that's just not what they're doing, they're busy, they're working,

they're building businesses and shit. Like you say, the places where people would meet are harder to access. And also, I think people are just skint, man. Like, really, like it's... Skin and so. I'm sorry, but alcohol played a really big part in a lot of this connectiveness. You can get friends while being sober.

But what I mean is the culture of drinking has changed. So I'm like, how did I grow in my friendship group at the pub? Like Soho. Really? That was like where, yeah. I mean, obviously I've got my lifelong friends, but Grimmie, well, to be fair, Grimmy jumped all the T for on the beach bus. But our friendship evolved through the pub and the party and Soho for sure.

That's really interesting. For me, it hasn't been that way at all. It was one of the hardest aspects of going sober for me was the immediate, like, just loss of friends that I realized I was only bound to by destruction, like shared destruction. And then the ones that were still there are the ones I'm like, oh, wow. Yeah, so this isn't about that, yeah, you know?

Well, yeah, we might have got matched up together. We might have been part of it, but it isn't what it is. Whereas there are a whole swaves of people I just don't see anymore. I've got whole clicks Woking out Yeah Which I think is It's just a thing

Meeting people I've heard that there's gonna be There's like a sober pub In London that's opening or a couple I think that's great Really that sounds like So dry Sorry come on

No it's not dry I feel like We should be challenging ourselves To be able to engage With human beings Without being inebriated Like it's not It's not impossible

I'm not really drinking at the moment It's not that I'm just saying like Well actually So many of my friends What's the issue They haven't made a non- alcoholic wine I like yet

sure sure does not an alcoholic wine exist because all my sober friends are what schlur you mean schlog no what do you just call it schlog this is insane let me keep I'm telling you right now this is brilliant this is another food puree like

chart baby food situation no what is schler every child's dream it's the drink you drink at Christmas as a kid yeah where you think you're drunk. It's literally non-alcoholic wine, but it's sparkling. Ooh, that could be a vibe. Like sugary grape.

Totally. Farts up on sugar. But because it just feels the bottle it's in, like, it's got a slight maturity to the taste. So as a kid, you're just like, oh, I'm ready. Stumbling around the house at Christmas. So hang on a minute. Do you not think that a lot of your, I'm going to even say success, didn't grow through the pub and the club and the rave?

meeting, signing record deals, meeting the right people, all that stuff. Signing record deals? Yeah, because if you watch any Oasis documentary or Blur documentaries, which I've watched a lot of, you know, they're like, everything happened in the pub. Everything is because of the pub and drinking. It's not that it wouldn't have happened otherwise, but that is how things happen.

That's where the record contracts got signed. That's where people saw you play. So to have that taken out or starting to eke out, I think it is going to change the way like, you know, well, it is. Everything's so business. now and CEO this and did it rather than like

I can't think I honestly can't think of it's actually quite mad you saying this I think maybe just specific to my I can only think of times where drinking is jeopardised my career I can only I could list plenty of times where it's like you've almost fucked it there

like you really really have me too I've got that list too yeah but that's what I mean like when you think of like have I established any meaningful connections whilst absolutely off my fucking face No. Probably not. I might have had the confidence to open up an avenue. I'm trying to think like...

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Like the other day, oh, I wasn't drinking, but I did do this. Like the other day, I had pitched an idea to Lenny Henry at the Booker Prize. That's cool. But again, that's not to do alcohol. No, it wasn't. That's a really bad example. Absolutely with courage. Sorry. That's what I mean. That's what I mean. I don't know. With our record deal, I remember, no, we were mainly, we and hardly did, had our meetings in restaurants because, actually, this is hilarious, we realized quite quickly that the record labels were willing to pay for whatever meeting we had to discuss. So we would just go to the most expensive restaurants we could find just so that we could get those meals for free. Did you do no boo? We didn't do no boo. But there was one memory that's just come back to me,

which is hilarious, which is that when I was a child, like, I mean like below 10, someone took me to the Rainforest Cafe in Piccadilly. Absolutely. And it was literally like the best. I remember But as a kid, it was the greatest experience of my life. I walked into, it was an alternate dimension where these animals were my friends, the food was glorious. Anyway, I asked that we sign our record deal in Rainforest Cafe as 19-year-olds.

Oh my God. I love that. No, but that's so good because you were signing that record deal for the nine-year-old you. Why not do it in his favorite place? Makita, I really wish I hadn't gone back in there as an adult. No, I really mean that. Oh.

It was so, I was like, this mechanical pamphor is fucking. The child wonderment that had like tied together My rainforest experience had disappeared And it was like really overpriced salad And like a really questionable mechanical lion That yeah, it was fucking wild I used to think Trocadiro was the most exciting place in London

When I got a bit older I was like, this is the shittest mall In the world It just had a good name It just had a good name Trocadero I was just going to bring this back on hometown to socialising, drinking. Oh, yes.

And let's not forget the boozy lunch of the 80s, talking about your record company paying for everything. That's where deals got made at the boozy lunch. The boozy lunch was like a huge part of business. And now people don't do that. That's not part of culture. I wonder if it has changed like what is being made. Like creativity, deals are being made in different ways.

I wonder if it's changing what is being offered into the world. Probably you might not have had like the clash without the pub. I mean, you wouldn't have had a lot of music that we kind of glorify now without some form of drug abuse. But I mean, that's, we got to ask ourselves what our relationship is with that. Okay. All right, teacher. Fucking out.

Just want to have a laugh? No, listen, Mekito, I fantasize about getting wrecked all the time. I'm in recovery, do you know what I mean? Of course. I miss the escapism in the moment. I miss that feeling of just being like, fuck it. But it's not worth it. Yeah, it's always fuck it.

That's always the word, fuck it. And actually there comes a point where you don't really want to say fuck it anymore. But it's interesting, thank you for telling you. As someone that's saying fuck it less, it's interesting to hear because I have been thinking about the difference between when I didn't drink for like seven months

and how amazing I felt. It's very different to living a life of sobriety. You know, you don't get that high of like novelty anymore. It's funny, there's one TikTok I love where somebody asks a woman on the street outside the club or whatever. They went, what's the hardest drug you've ever took? And they said, sobriety.

Yeah. They were like, life. Life is the hardest drug you can take. That shit's intense as fuck. And if you're willing to ride it, then ride it out. It's funny, when you say about fuck it, I think ultimately what the it is is like your life. That's exactly it. So it's actually, it's not fuck it because it's actually really serious and quite a big thing to say,

yeah, fuck it. Fuck my life. And your 20s, you're like that. And he's like, fuck my actual life. Like what? A close relationship. I need to be responsible for. Fuck that.

I don't have time about shit. A future career. Stability. Fuck that. Being on time for work tomorrow. I have better things to worry about things. I remember I got in so much trouble at work. And I can say this because I went to talk through where I'm at with my business and stuff with my agent because she's part of it in the boardroom of her offices.

And I've only ever been taken to that boardroom to be told off. Like, you know, really serious stuff. Like you're suspended from. T4 or like, Warner Brothers are never going to give an artist to T4 again unless you apologize to blah, but like, it's just a nightmare. I missed that shit. That's that messy bitch. I need, honestly, the people are gagging for you and Simon to come and just read these

fucking artists to film. These days, artists would know what hit them. They would not know what hit them. Do you know that someone asked, we got an email the other day, a new artist, wondered if I was interested in doing media training for them. I was like, well, they want me to media train them. They don't know anything about you. They don't know anything about you.

No, they were like, because you know, you're quite outgoing and bubbly. I was like, listen, I've never been media trained quite evidently. And I also don't think it's healthy. I don't think it makes a good broadcaster at all. It's safe to say that you did not have media training. And that's why we love you. That's why we love you. Honestly.

Fuck off media training. I can't wait for the Makita. Oh, my God. Stop. No, I need it. Or the memoir. When's it coming? No, no, no. So I went in to see Jess, talked to her in a room. She was proud. What was I talking about, Jordan?

Sorry, you were talking about being in the boardroom that you were banned from. Anyway, but it was really great to go to the boardroom for a good reason. I was like, God, I really have. Things have really changed. That's what I mean. I'm having a fucking good year. And I wasn't. I had a really hard summer, as you know. And Phoebe did some readings with me. It was like, you're going to have a much better winter. And I was like, whatever. And she was right. So much better.

Great. I'm fucking happy. for you. And you look better. Thanks. You look good. What, because I had a haircut? No, because you're not doing that fucking play.

Excuse me. Change my life. Change my life. Wouldn't run at another one, but it changed my life. I loved it. I loved it. Yeah, you did. No, you just look a little bit rested.

Honestly, just look a little bit rested. I have slept. I haven't stopped. I'll be real. I've not stopped. Obviously, I'm on tour with Rizzle kicks now. So you're actually on tour, Jordan? Well, the tour split up over the course of the month,

so I'm doing like two or three shows a week. Uncle Warren text me at the weekend and said, are you going to Jordan's thing? I didn't know, I was like, I haven't been invited. No, that was something else. That was another thing. That was me doing a boys and men, an evening of discussion around boys and men.

That you talked about. Yeah. Did Uncle Warren come? I didn't think so. I didn't see, isn't it? Kane came. Oh, did he? Okay.

Came and Georgie came in. It's going to be a good Christmas, I think. It's going to be a good few weeks. Let's get down and dirty with it. I will see you on Monday for Listen, bitch. We're doing sit and that clothing. Yeah, nice. Thank you, Jordan.

Wonderful to talk to you as always. I'll call you later. Big love. Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to Miss Me. This is a Percephonica production for BBC Sounds. Ever wondered what's really going on behind the biggest celebrity scandals.

From Justin Baldoni versus Blake lively to Kim Kardashian's sex. tape lawsuit to Brigitte McCron fighting claims she was born a man. These stories dominate your feeds, but what's the truth? That's where our podcast, Fame Under Fire, comes in. I'm Inishka Mandadality, and each week we dig deep into the legal battles and controversies everyone's talking about with expert analysis and exclusive scoops. New episodes of Fame Under Fire Drop every week. Listen now and subscribe on BBC Sounds.

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